6
2012
Why Are Players Avoiding The Mets Like The Plague?
An article by 72MetsFan
Congratulations to the Super Bowl XLVI Champion, New York Giants! What a spectacular performance by Eli Manning and the rest of Big Blue. I’m going to relish this one for a long time. :-)
* * * * * *
So I just read the news that Rick Ankiel signed with the Washington Nationals and I wanted to quickly get something off my chest before I forget about it in the morning.
Does anyone out there want to play for these Mets?
I’ve lost count of how many players we’ve targeted this offseason that turned around and signed with other teams for table scraps.
It smells fishy. It’s not like we’re asking the prom queen or the head cheerleader for the next dance and predictably got rejected. These are wallflowers we’re talking about. These are the ones you don’t even notice until you’ve pounded down your 7th or 8th drink – you know where I’m coming from?
Jeff Francis, Wilson Betemit, Endy Chavez, Cody Ross, Zach Duke, am I forgetting anyone? The minute the Mets even come close to a player they like, they run like hell in the other direction.
Sure we signed reliever Frank Francisco a couple of hours after we lost Jose Reyes, but we had to overpay him with a two year, $12 million dollar deal to get it done. Better options and even proven closers like Francisco Cordero (37 saves, $4.5M) signed for much less. For crying out loud we had to bid against ourselves and give Jon Rauch – yes Jon Rauch – $3.5 million dollars to pitch for us. Look at what similar or better relievers got:
Chad Qualls, Phillies – $1.15 million
Brad Lidge, Nationals – $1 million
Joel Zumaya, Twins – $850 thousand
Todd Coffey, Dodgers – $1.3 million
So now we can scratch Ankiel off the list of available left-handed bats. Apparently that’s what the Mets want and need, but it takes two to tango and so far there’s no takers.
Remember when Omar Minaya signed Pedro Martinez in an attempt to help restore the Mets image and put them back on the map again?
It may need to happen again, but the problem is Sandy Alderson doesn’t seem like he’d be up to the task, unless of course he breaks with his tradition or something radical changes. So far he’s only interested in getting rid of big names, not adding them.
Things seem really out of whack right now, but we’ve seen days like this before. Luckily times like these never last forever. One day players will actually want to play for the Mets again and without the need to overpay them or bid against ourselves. But clearly that time is not now.
About the Author: Drew Staley
On June 1, 2012 Johan Santana officially became my favorite current Met! I'm a Queens native who grew up in the shadows of Big Shea. I was a huge Ron Darling, Dave Magadan and John Olerud fan. Honored to be a part of such a great site for Mets fans. Ya Gotta Believe!
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Would you be in a hurry to sign with a team with an uncertain financial future, no commitment to short term success, while being totally undermanned in a division that is quickly becoming one of MLB’s most competitive? Sounds like you’d be signing up for frustration. There WILL be brighter times for the organization, but these aren’t them. I’m not a big fan of Sandy, but he’s working with at least one hand tied behind his back. If we’re going to be trending toward a small market budget at least for a bit, might as well have a guy with small market experience manning the wheel. Bleak short term picture, but as you said, “times like these never last forever.”
Well said.
Mets may not be the most appealing team to sign with that’s the point.
Why would any one want to play for a team with a fan base as nasty and mean-spirited as this?
These fans who spew such animus against the Mets, looking for every excuse in the book to bash the team, including the concocted, need to take a hard look in the mirror, take some responsibility for the negativity they create surrounding this team. The angry, hateful portion of the fan base are part of the problem and will, of course deny it.
Do you really have to ask that question?
Who wants to finish on last place 30awaits games out?
All very good points. I’m not heart broken at all about not getting Ankiel, if we were even attempting to sign him which I doubt but as far as players wanting to come here.
Pete, NJ, Alex, Longtime, and Rich all make very good points.
Players careers are short. No one wants to spend 3, 4 or 5 years of it playing out the string every year. Agents and players who are actually in the baseball business know what organizations are well run and which ones aren’t.
Even when the Mets were building up the Major league roster or seemingly a piece or two away players balked at coming here. Beltran would have taken less in the same City, Bay hemmed and hawed and Delgado did go elsewhere.
One need look no further than Keith Hernandez in 1983. He’s stated numerous times that he asked his agent what financial position he would be in if he just quit right then and there. He’s also stated how he only resigned here reluctantly and only because Cashen convinced him that the Gooden’s, Darlings, Sid’s and Straw’s in the farm would be real impact players and he wouldn’t be just playing out the string every year.
The easiest and least knowledgeable thing to do is to claim that Alderson isn’t trying to get good players here. The more intelligent fan understands that players who have multiple options would rather play almost anywhere else than Queens.
At one time you could have said the same thing about the NYY but in the ;last 20 years they have really turned their organization around from a circus side show to a real buttoned down operation that provides solutions for itself ahead of time so their there when they need them, not just scrounging around for 4 starters, 2 guys for the rotation, 3 arms for the pen, 4 bench players and 15 guys for AAA depth every off season.
Fact is we are among the least attractive destinations for any player with more than one team interested in obtaining his services, just like the NYY used to be. Now players are flattered when the NYY come calling and no one wants to leave. No one even wants to go elsewhere after they get cut loose.
What turned it around for the NYY? Homegrown talent and continuity that brought stability to the Organization. Guys like Bernie, Jeter, Petite, Posada, Mariano, gave carefully selected imports like Tino, Knoblauch and O’neil something to fit into when they got here. Even Clemens and A-Rod were concerned about “just fitting in.” When did you ever hear that from a newly acquired Met? Never that’s when because there’s nothing to fit into here. We never have top talent and competition coming up through the farm so consequently we take anyone and hope that it works out.
Rookie infielders handed LF, Rookie 1B handed RF. Rookie catcher up here after learning to play 1B his first three years (out of 4 1/2) in the minors. Selling first round draft picks to avoid having to pay the signing bonus. Who else does things like this?
How about drafting, signing and developing a guy to be a LFer, RFer or catcher. That’s what successful organizations do.
For years upon years it’s been very easy to play for the Mets, We take everyone. 65 guys from 2005-2010 played their last major League game for us. That’s absurd. The team is run like a joke. Millions upon millions of dollars spent on players last 3 years of their career and spending well below the Major league average on the draft and IFA.
Until that changes nothing will change.
First of all, **** the giants, second of all, rick ankiel sucks, who cares if he doesn’t wanna come here?? thank the national for signing him, one less garbage we have to worry about.. and third of all, you must not have been paying attention, this team will likely be the worst in the division for years to come, unless we overpay for players they will not wanna come here, this team it’s at least 5 years (When sandy & his sabergoons are gone) from contention..
First of all, no one was comparing the 2012 WORLD CHAMPION GIANTS of NY to a crap-ass little bull-shit franchise like the 2012 NY Mets, Alex, and on a sweet smelling victorious winter morning like this one, there is nothing wrong with Drew sending out some props to our very own newly minted NFL Champions. Second of all, we may be comparing two different kinds of fruits here, but it’s not apples and oranges. It’s fresh ripe fruit that is delicious and healthy to eat, versus rotten, old garbage fruit that’s soft, pulpy, and inedible, because to ingest it would mean making yourself sick. Third of all, if you look at what the Giants do correctly, to be such an unbelievably successful NFL team, are you telling me you can’t see what the clear differences there are to the Mets? They are the same differences that keep the Mets a disgrace and an embarrassment to their fans, year after year.
1. Let’s start with square one. Ownership. The Big Blue is owned by some of the most intelligent and classy owners in all of organized sports. If you don’t think that is a direct correlation to winning then you are a supreme numb-nut. The G-men’s owners love the fans, as much as they love their team. Their families established a tradition of pride and blue-collar work ethic in their franchise that mirrors the communities that root for them. The owners have showed unerring faith and confidence in their head coach, Tom Coughlin, even in the rough times when the media moguls and many fans were calling for his head. And look where their patience got them. He is well on his way to being a HOF coach, if not in Canton, in the hearts and minds of New Yorkers and New Jerseyans. Can the Mets and their fans sit back and say the same types of things about their ownership?
2. Team. Did you watch the Super Bowl Alex? Did you see the part after the game when the players were kissing the trophy? Did you see the pride and the love for their sport in all of those players faces? It was an extremely calm, and serene, and quiet and personal moment for each one of those individual champions on the field, those New York Giants. And the thing that really struck me was, first, how young they are, maybe I’m just getting old, but they seemed to all be, kids. I think winning makes you younger. But the thing that really struck me was the respect that they all exhibited. Respect to each other, respect to the owners and coaches, and respect to the fans. Do you get that same warm and fuzzy feeling from this Mets team? Of course not because they are a last place team. I am not blaming any of the players. Most of them do the best they can and that’s all you can ask of them, but the owners are the ones (again) who assembled this mess, and they can’t avoid taking the responsibility for it.
So you can learn some things when comparing fruit after all. There may not be a reason in your mind to like football, but it doesn’t mean you can’t appreciate beauty, and the way the Giants run their winning franchise is truly a thing of beauty.
Did anyone catch what Tom Brady said a few minutes after the patriots loss?
He said “each guy in the locker room knows that if they could have done just a little more, things could have been different.” Not if just one guy could have a little more.
Now that’s a competitor, not a finger pointer.
LMAO, go ahead petey, gloat… you guys won.. i never said he was compering the giants with the mets.. congratulations on being SB champs i guess.. i’d still scream out loud **** the giants!!!!!!!!!
but you’re my boy petey…
Hahah! I just couldn’t let that one go Alex baby! Not when I am so full of Giants Blue today!
GO GIANTS!!!!!
I’m not exactly going to lose sleep over not signing Ankiel or he not wanting to come here.. Another inconsistent player that’s towards the end of his career.
“Remember when Omar Minaya signed Pedro Martinez in an attempt to help restore the Mets image and put them back on the map again?
It may need to happen again, but the problem is Sandy Alderson doesn’t seem like he’d be up to the task, unless of course he breaks with his tradition or something radical changes. So far he’s only interested in getting rid of big names, not adding them.
Remember when Omar Signed Pedro and the Mets actually had money to spend then? How many rounds are we going to about this, really? Sandy doesn’t ‘SEEM” to be up to the task, because HE’S NOT when he has about $10 to spend on players………..this is NOT news…………..still……….
Actually he had a little more than ten bucks to spend. $24 million is more like it and he did a terrible job spending it by overpaying for a collection of scrubs. Half the teams in the game spent less. Enjoy Francisco, Cedeno, Torres, Rauch, etc.
No, $9.5 million this year on free agents for the big club. and only 1 is signed through next season. He took on an extra $1 million if you count the Pagan trade.
ohh, and BTW, with sandy at the helm if a FA has a Type A free agent tag, don’t expect him to come here, we sure would not want to give up those draft picks that will ensure us winning world series for years to come…
If you think about it, the Nats did the same thing with Werth that the Mets did with Pedro all those years ago. Now they have a strong mix of youth and a couple of Stars/Almost Stars… That is the perfect combo (+ the money obviously) to entice those last few FAs to help complete the puzzle. I’m sure the Mets will get there and unless all the kids are hitting on all cylinders, they’ll probably have to overpay some to bring someone in.
Well, the Nats have money. The Mets apparently don’t have any. Can’t even keep/sign our own guys let alone overpay for someone to come here right now…
Here’s a good indicator of the difference in the money situation between the two clubs right now:
Not to long ago I read an article in the Washington Post (I believe), saying they’ve instituted an ‘Out of Town’ ticket policy. Starting with the Phillies. Seems they’ve had it with the bus load of Philly fans that come into their ball park when they’re playing the Nats, their obnoxious behavior, extra security, etc.
So…for the first Nat series in May, if buying tickets ahead of time you have to be purchasing them from a credit card with a mailing address in D.C. VA or MD – or they won’t sell you one. –Goes w/o saying I suppose you could get them from some other venue other than directly from the Nats.
Yeah…I’m thinking if it would bring in revenue right now the Wilpons would be selling tickets to inmates if they were allowed to…….
that is silly. Instead of keeping the other teams fans out, try selling more tickets to your own fans!
also, the Nats are NOT spending more than the Mets. I believe their payroll this year is going to be roughly the same as the mets (and the Braves)> marlins too aren’t going to outspend the Mets.
People tend to focus on how much a team commits in a particular off season, but what is really relevant is what the team is spending in total for the year (not which season they wrote the contracts), All that does is say year 1 of a deal is more relevant than 2+!
Yeah, I couldn’t believe that ticket policy was serious either. But it didn’t read like some sort of joke….
Difference between us and the Nats right now though – even if the payroll winds up in the same ball park – is we’re definitely slashing payroll…to the point that someone suggested the biggest cut from one year to the next in MLB history. I’m sure the Nats have a plan but right now it’s not revolving around slashing any payroll.
Slashing payroll to meet revenue.
Agree.
Which is why I got a laugh out of the the ‘Out of Town’ ticket policy the Nats are supposedly putting in place.
Either their revenues are healthy or the owner doesn’t really care right now.
well, given that FA is really an auction, all teams “overpay” for guys to bring them in. That is, you have to bid more than all the other teams to start with.
Now, if you are saying that the mets have to add a premium on top of being the highest bid? That is hard to prove.
but players have no problem coming to NY (well, some always have wanted to avoid the attention…). If the Mets offer the extra million, or that last year, hell yeah a FA will sign on.
I guess my point was more along the lines that all things being equal, a FA wants to sign where they are in the optimal setting (combo of Money and ability to win the WS). To get that initial push to go from undesirable to desirable, you have to entice the first to come. I know it is not a law or theory, but merely a rambling man’s hypothesis.
could be. I tend to believe that it is 95% money (at least).
and don’t forget, NY is a drawing card for many players (especially the ones with media whore wives!). I would expect that teams that play in more out of the way places (Minn, Pitt, KC) might have bigger issues with having to overpay to get FAs (not that they ever actually do it)
But the housing is so much cheaper in KC!
True, and your average multi-millionaire BB player is so concerned about saving that $500/month in their mortgage!
haha.
See Cliff Lee please…
CLiff lee took the money too. He is making 25mill this year.
he did not take some big cut (or pass up a huge deal) to go to the Phils. Though yes, that seemed to be his preference, but he still didn’t do it until the Phils ponyed up the biggest deal (by AAV).
the only question is the last year (options/buy outs) but over the 5 guaranteed he is making more per year in Philly.
“Remember when Omar Minaya signed Pedro Martinez in an attempt to help restore the Mets image and put them back on the map again?
It may need to happen again, but the problem is Sandy Alderson doesn’t seem like he’d be up to the task, unless of course he breaks with his tradition or something radical changes. So far he’s only interested in getting rid of big names, not adding them.”
Well, there are these uncofirmed rumors that the Mets are having financial troubles. I remember hearing something about it a while ago. Perhaps you have seen it mentioed? That could possbily be related to not specinding $50+ on over the hill pitchers.
Oh, and bythe way
GO BLUE!
Listen up “72″ ….
What don’t you understand about the financial situation that the team is in? Sandy was given a budget to work with and told to do what he could based on his experience to restore this team knowing it would take some time. There are now 3-4 highly regarded young arms in the minors who will hopefully become a starting pitching staff of quality in the next two years. It was Sandy’s opinion and most agree that the Beltran trade was a no- brainer because of the injury history of Carlos and that resigning Jose was also a big risk for the same reason. While we all would have loved to see him stay in NY, he was not going to make the team a contender without adding significant pitching help. Guess what? No money to do so!
Face facts, my friend.The 2012 season is not going to be a prosperous one for the team. We would be lucky to win 75 games unless there is a sudden reversal of fortune for Pelfrey and Neise.along with a big year from Dickey. We’d also need our injured to be totally healthy and strong comebacks from Wright and Bay. Our catching is weak, not much offense in centerfield and questionable defense at second base. This is a reality.
So, why do free agents avoid coming here? It’s because they know he team has no shot to win and that they will be scrutinized beyond what they have ever experienced by the blood sucking media and fans who are pissed off at ownership.
SANDY ALDERSON WAS HIRED TO HELP RIGHT A SINKING SHIP UNTIL IT CAN BE REBUILT WITH A YOUNGER NUCLEUS AND FINANCIAL RECOVERY.
HE IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT IS NEEDED FOR THE OWNERS TO KEEP THE TEAM WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT….
The Mets payroll is still $95 million, that’s in the top ten. What dont you understand in allocating $95 million better than the way this front office has? Shall I remind you of how many teams with lower payrolls than $95 million have won the World Series in the last 12 years?
Payroll is at 90m. Of that 65m covers only 5 players which means 25m needs to be spread across 20 other players. The options are limitless!
Well you don’t do it by giving Francisco 6 Mil per thats for sure!
You say 25 Mil needs to be spread out among 25 players….
Well thats pretty easy! Especially if you claim you are REBUILDING!
Because you trade for and sign league minimum players to fill out the roster
Promote the KIDS you have to play places like CF and RP and if you do not have them in the MiLs you trade some MiL or make sure to get what you need by trading your All Star Closer and getting MORE than one prospect for your leading RBI producer at the deadline!
And the other method is even easier!
Sign someone that Fans actually would come out to see so the Revenues go up enough to cover the costs without cutting!
What Sandy has done is no different than if you owned an amusement park and sold off all the best rides that drew people because of a bad year of attendance!
So whats going to bring people in this year?
Francisco? Rauch?
really?
Lets find out how much the Mets actually end up paying Fransisco and Rauch before we say that they overpaid.
Attendance is a product of winning not players. The historic play of Reyes in the first half didn’t stop attendance declining, so why would it be any different if the just threw their wad at one guy and signed scrubs to fill the rest of their holes.
And KROD is SO great at this point in his career that he re-signed as a setup man.
And I can completely appreciate the criticism on the Francisco signing, but there are not too many players that are willing to do just 1 or 2 years deals to a team that is hamstrung by pending legal issues.
Also what is better KROD at 17 or Francisco at 6? If there is only 25 million to spend on 20 players, that extra 11m is needed desperately.
Not only re-signed but accepted arbitration in the process basically saying I know that not many teams would consider me a closer.
and what Boras client would ever take that approach unless they knew there wasn’t much of a market.
“Attendance is a product of winning not players”
You go right on believing that!
See the year 2005!
We added two stars and didn’t win all that much more (83 vs 71) and increased ticket sales by 6K tickets per game!
If each ticket is about $100 in revenue that comes to about 48.6 Million in increased revenue!
Compared to how much in extra salary for Pedro and Carlos again? (Pedro got 10.8M Carlos 11.5 Total 22.3 Mil)
You more than doubled your investment in 2005!
All because the people saw who they signed, had some hope for a good season and made a run on season tickets before the first game of the season was even played let alone WON!
But you go right on thinking that the winning is what did it!
You go on thinking 11-12 wins turned that 48.6 Million dollar winfall and not the acqusition of Beltran and Martinez!
Cause I am not in the business of arguing with folks and teaching them the nature of the ENTERTAINMENT business!
You draw based on your STAR power!
Only when that Star Power FAILS to meet the expectations does that draw go away!
Winning is only relevant at some point because if you are WINNING yuou either have or CREATED some STARS that are giving the fans the hope!
Winning CREATES the STARS that draw!
But Stars draw even before the winning starts!
As Beltran and Martinez did in 2005!
Are you still on that nonsense? Even after I forced you to admit it was bull? Remember? When you admitted Texas still saw attendance drops even with Rodriguez when they continued to lose?
That is what you don’t get. people don’t buy those tickets because they think those stars are so nifty to look at. People make the correlation between stars and winning. What happens in year 2 when year 1 was a failure? “Well, we’ve still got our super star”. Ya, that you didn’t win with last year. That is why the Rangers had to ship off Rodriguez.
The Mets didn’t see that attendance boost because Beltran was so very popular. People saw signing Beltran nad Martinez as a step towards winning. If 2005 was a sub .500 season, do you think attendance would have gone up for 2006?
Oh Dr. Metsie. I have a feeling that even if you agreed with me, you would just write down a disagreement for disagreement sakes. The correlation between winning and attendance is so easy to see. Yea the Mets trending up (or in other words winning more than losing from a previous season) with 2 homegrown star talents had noting to do with fans wanting to come back it was just the signing.
Just look at the late nineties. Everyone knew the team had a ways to go, but it was trending up and started to play good baseball.
Years verses attendance
1995 1.2m
1996 1.5m
1997 1.7m
1998 2.2m
1999 2.7m
2000 2.8m
2001 2.6m
2002 2.8m
2003 2.1m
2004 2.4m
2005 2.8m
2006 3.3m
Hope of winning is what draws in the fans. Belief that winning is possible and even likely but when the fans hopes are constantly dashed by under performing free agent after under performing free agent that hope starts to recede.
Bottom line is you cannot constantly raise the fans expectations and then claim bad luck, injuries, “who could have expected so and so would fall off the cliff right after we signed him,” and the ever popular “who else were we going to get to play ______.”
Ownership and multiple FO’s have always taken the short cut and not only failed but also turned future teams into sub .500 underacheivers inorder to expedite the process for those failed teams.
People like to say that you can’t rebuild in NY but that’s BS. What you can’t do is NEVER win in NY, and crash for 3-5 years after not winning.
Twelve losing seasons in the last 21 years WITH the largest payroll is an extraordinary feat in and of itself and half of those under .500 teams lost 90 or more and the worst of the worst of them included big off season acquisitions and big expectations followed by some of the most uninspiring baseball seen around here since the De Roullet years.
To write off and excuse these utterly inept results as the product of injuries, bad luck, one AB, one pitch, one series or anything else shows an almost incomprehensible tolerance and acceptance of mediocrity.
T, I BEG TO DIFFER AS TO THE CAUSE FOR THE DISSATISFACTION, IT ISN’T UNDERPERFORMANCE THAT’S THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE IT’S THE RELATIVE CONSISTANCY THESE WILPONS HAVER AT TRYING TO SEKLL A LAMINAYE TEAM WITH A PRETTY VENEER AS A DEEPLY TALENTED TEAM OF DESTINY WHEREBY THE OWNERSHIP PREFERS TO HAVE BETTER THAN ADEQUATE RESERVES RATHER THAN JUST SERVICABLE ONES MY CASE IN POINT IS MOST LIKELY EXAMPLED BY REFERRING TO THE PHILLIES’ ACTIONS IN RESPONSE TO UTLEY’S FIRST MAJOR INJURY DESPITE HAVING A MORE HIGHLY REGARDED FARM THAN THE METS’ THE PHILLIES IMMERDIATELY SHOPPED FOR AN ESTABLISHED MLBer AS BACKFILL INSTEAD OF A PARADE OF COST EFFECTIVE UNDERACHIEVERS WE’VE SEEN PARADED THROUGH SINCE THE ’09 PLAGUE OF INJURIES BEFELL EVERY NOTABLE OFFENSIVE PRODUCER.
NO, T, THESE WILPONS HAVE BEEN TRUBBIBNG THIS TEAM LIKE SLUMLORDS, SELECTING THE LOWEST GRADE REPLACEMENT PARTS WHENEVER POSSIBLE.
Didn’t win all that much more? So if the Mets win 70 games this year then would have won about the same as 81?
OK so based on your premise, because the Mets had already had Reyes and they had not won and fans had grown tired of the product then it would not have been sound business from an entertainment standpoint to re-sign him…. good we agree.
11-12 wins is a huge difference.If they didn’t improve the team by 12 wins,the excitement of those free agent signings would slowly evaporate after the allstar break.
I happen to think that Francisco was a good signing and let me explain why. If he proves to be the effective closer Alderson thinks he can be, he would become a huge trading chip at the deadline. An unbelievable team friendly contract for a closer who is also signed through 2013. It would be the anti-Krod deal where instead of some salary relief we can get a couple of “A” or “B” prospects.
Well nester would he be as good a trading chip as Reyes would be at the deadline?
For 4 Mil more per year you could have had Reyes instead!
The francisco move on it’s own isn’t bad!
But if your trying to get the most bang for your buck it wasn’t as good as other deals that could have been made!
And if we are so worried about pinching pennies what is the point of signing him at all?
If he is not a long term solution then it would be better to sign someone who is!
Man, I know it is hard for you but Reyes signed for more than one year…. in fact he took evidently the only offer on the table and that offer exceeded 100M. Thus no it was not a decision of Fransisco -4M or Reyes.
Once the Marlins proposed 100M the Mets nor anyone else was getting close to Reyes, it is time to move on.
no, because then you are tied to someone who may not fit in long term. And, he will be harder to move.
“Well nester would he be as good a trading chip as Reyes would be at the deadline?
For 4 Mil more per year you could have had Reyes instead!”
No, that is so wrong, it is hard to know where to begin. You do realize, in his backloaded contract, Reyes is still making almost as much this year and Fransisco’s entire contract? and that number is only going to increase for the next 5 years?
I really have no idea how for 1 second you thought the 2 were comparable. you really do like just to type stuff and pretend it is brilliant. What you put up there was just total nonsense.
Yup, you re-sign a homegrown player to a long term back-loaded contract just to swing him in a trade next season. Nice try Dr. Metsie but we obviously are looking for a second opinion.
I was going to give you a reply, but quite frankly trs, donal and salty hit on everything I would have said. I’ll only add that it was preposterous of you to say for $4 million more he could have had Reyes. It was $92 million more or do you still not get that Reyes was settling for a nickel less than $100 million? Not to mention the fact that Jose Reyes cant close games. You want to debate, then lets debate, but lets not make a mockery out of it.
* was NOT settling for a nickel less than $100 million.
Shhhh… you are not allowed to use logic on this site. You will now be labeled a skirt wearer or some other middle school retort.
But back to your assumption it is a calculated risk for sure. Half way through the season an acquiring team will have a closer with a total of 9 million left for 1.5 years. That indeed will be a valuable chip. Multiple top prospects? Most likely not but better than Krod? Yeah.
What I also don’t get is why it is OK for the Marlins to overpay by 10′s of millions and bid “against themselves” (assuming you believe that the Mets never even made a proposal to the agent ) for Reyes at a position that they did not even need yet the Mets have no closer and sign two guys with experience for less than 10M for this year as well as acquire very trade-able assets in the process and they are mismanaging their funds.
Imagine what the Marlins could have done if they had left Reyes alone and went after CJ, traded for Gio and signed Prince?
Here is another question, why did Reyes agree to such a back-loaded contract? I can only think of two reasons, he wanted to be in FLA all along or knew that the Marlins were the ONLY team that would approach his 100M demands.
I keep going back to that Reyes signing with Miami as well.
It appeared to me like he jumped on the first offer received. There has to be a reason for that. Especially for someone who said they were all kinds of excited to be going through FA for the first time.
Either he wanted Miami all along, his agent told him he likely wouldn’t get a better offer – or both.
Otherwise, why not wait a month or so longer to see how the market developed and if another team would beat that offer?
If you were from the Dominican and lived there in the off-season, would you want a 1 hour flight back to the team, or keep the 4 hour flight? I don’t know why people don’t try and empathize a little with the player and their motivations. We are the ones that worship the franchise, the players worship their families and money.
I honestly think it was a combination of things but the Marlins were desperate to make a splash before season ticket sales went out… They most likely told Reyes if you don’t take this ridiculous offer someone else will. In turn Reyes’ agent said, this is a ridiculous offer and you had better take it… so far no other team than the Mets have even sniffed at your demands.
SRT, remember, the Marlins didn’t up their offer to nine figures till much later in the FA process, after Reyes had plenty of time to hear from other teams. 29 teams didn’t think he was worth it, so he went for the one that did. The longer he waited would be the longer every other team had to show Miami they weren’t interested and Reyes ran the risk of Miami saying “you know what, our offer is off the table. How does $85 million sound to you?”
As soon as he got to $100 million, he ran for it. Either he or his agent or both realized that’s way beyond his worth and Miami was the only team willing to risk it.
Well, I never really heard any other team linked to Reyes other than the Marlins. Not even a hint of inquiring or an offer made. Could be I’m just not remembering any other team?
I’m sure many teams called his agent to inquire. And once they heard the starting price was 100 MIL said ‘Well, O.K., thanks anyway’.
And very good point about waiting too long and Miami realizing the offer didn’t have to be that big.
It wasn’t that much later. He signed the night before the winter Meetings, when he was sceduled to meet with at least 2 other teams. The only teams he had any real cotnact with were the Marlins and Mets.
I’m pretty sure his agent knew the market (or at least convinced Reyes he did) so if it realyl was a take it or leave it offer fro mthe Marlins and he jumped at it before hearing from anyone else, then something was up. either he really did love Miami (enough to forfeit millions of $$$) or his agent made him believe he wasn’t getting anything better.
I’m going with both.
We always knew there would be at least one GM out there willing to overpay. There always is, every year, for at least one FA.
Right not only was he faced with getting payroll to match revenue but also faced with some contracts that are dead weight. We he came, Ollie, Luis, Krod (like him or not it was too much money for a closer and was about to get worse), Johan, Bay, …. I think he said from the beginning that one of the major goals was payroll flexibility. Unfortunately he still does not have that because of a reduced amount to spend along with 3/4 of the payroll tied to 5 players. I suspect that he will continue to try to gain more flexibility even if that does mean trading guys like Johan, Bay and even Wright. Ultimately, for those of you who want the Mets to spend big money again they will have to continue to get rid of the ones that are overpaid and not performing to that level of pay.
Right not only was he faced with getting payroll to match revenue but also faced with some contracts that are dead weight.
Reyes was dead Weight?
I see you make the same mistake as SRT did in the other thread.
You claim he had to make Payroll meet the Revenue.
But never once consider making the Revenue meet the Payroll!
You cut 50-60 Mil after losing 70 Mil. Thats means your still 20 Mil short on your way of doing things.
How much Revenue did you lose because of no Reyes, Beltran and K-Rod?
Add it to the 10-20 mil you didn’t cover!
Whats your plan to continue making payroll meet revenue next year?
Where is the next 30- 50 Mil coming from?
Because they could lose another 20-30 Mil in revenue compared to last year!
Which makes most of your cuts ineffective!
Keeping Reyes may have kept the attendance revenue flat compared to last year.
Even despite the loss of Beltran and K-Rod.
It will definitly go down now!
And for every ticket sale they lose they lose another $120 bucks per ticket!
Add it up over the course of 162 games and you will find you solved NOTHING by cutting, just backed yourself into a hole Cutting can no longer get you out of!
And then what do you do?
Live with it until Bay and Santana come off the books?
Good Luck with that, Sandy will be gone long before that happens!
spending money to make money is certainly one of the options.
but, you have to have the money to spend. And if they were really so completely tapped out and borrowed to the max, they may not have had the option.
since the outflow part is fixed, but the inflow is not guaranteed. So from an owner standpoint, they weren’t taking the risk.
Any I get what your saying…
But look at what they DID spend on!
reyes took a two year pay cut. There is 2 Mil of savings right there!
Lets for argument sake say he wouldn’t do that for us and wanted another 2 Mil per year from us?
Doesn’t Francisco’s salary cover that?
Like I said the signing of Francisco on it’s own isn’t relevant or bad.
But it was spent without ANY long term benefit where spending it on Reyes would have given us two years to fix the revenues without also causing major LOSSES of those revenue due to decreased attendance reyes brought to the table!
I keep hearing this term “LONG TERM”, “IN THE LONG RUN” and “FUTURE FINANCIAL STABILITY”
Which signing we made has any benefit to us in any of those areas?
Which signing is actually going to be here past next year?
Some folks cite being competitive in the MEANTIME…I ask you are we actually going to be competitive this year or next?
Did we accomplish what it is everyone thinks we accompished by dumping Reyes and signing Francisco?
Or did we just make Revenue even worse so now they will be more inclined to Trade Wright who love him or hate him is another BIG draw to the stadium!
What happens to revenue after that? What happens to our MEANTIME COMPETITIVNESS?
No one argues we should not have cut salary but there is a point when you have to say TOO MUCH, TOO SOON!
Any reasonable business manager knows the KEY to effective cutting is to not hurt the revenues and try to maintain them while you cut back!
We have NOT done this!
We have hacked and slashed and IMO we didn’t even get CLOSE to removing the real WASTE in the payroll just the star draws that CARRIED it this long!
And that means we didn’t save any money we just reduced the ability to ever get payroll to meet the financials because we cut off our payroll to SPITE our revenue! and are soon to run out of cuts to make to keep going.
Cutting like we have is a snowball on the top of a mountain!
It’s gathering steam and each GOOD player lost is good REVENUE out the door!
It’s going to roll right over us with no way to stem the tide because the salaries we need to purge can’t be, we are running out of big salaries that CAN be purged to try and meet the revenue demands and the declining revenue is adding to the weight of the snowball that is now miles wide!
We are about to get rolled over!
Francisco isn’t going to win enough games or even be here long enough to stop that from happening!
We have ABANDONED the long term for the sake of the SHORT TERM and the truth is we didn’t even help us in the SHORT term either!
We are not going to be winning a thing anytime soon!
If Davis and Duda make the All Star team then maybe thats the only thing that could stop what is about to happen!
What are the odds on that happening? And if it was to happen how much better off would we be if we had reyes at the top of the order and on base for them?
At 1 Mil less than he made last season and two years to FIX the attendance before you lost that savings or trade him for something that could draw fans and fix the long term picture?
Penny wise but Revenue Foolish is what we got here!
We needed at least to try and KEEP what little attendance we had!
Might have with Reyes. Then hope Santana gives folks hope, Davis and Duda get people excited and Harvey and Familia keep everyone looking forward to 2013!
If we are going to lose a ton of games why not lose them with a bad Bullpen as opposed to a bad offense that can’t get a lead for the bullpen to hold?
We did nothing for this year’s competitive prospects!
LAST YEAR we needed a Bullpen because we had an OFFENSE who made them key to winning games! That ship has passed!
But we seem to be trying to win with LAST YEAR’s team despite the fact we got RID of last year’s team to pay for the fixes!
When the mandate is no salary obligations through 2014 and a reduction of payroll by 40%, there is only one short term goal and that is to hold onto ownership of the team. This hinders the long-term goal because investing is delayed and supporting pieces will not be in place when our 3 Cy Young’s are ready. They will not come until afterwards.
We are all on the same page. Where we aren’t is why this is happening. What is the point of the same circular discussion every day?
I believe everyone is in agreement that you can’t move forward with just cutting, everyone understands that Dr. Metsie. The disagreement is between short verses long term goals. We all want the short term goal to compete but we are in disagreement on the ability to accomplish this task. And every day people will keep commenting in circles but in the end there is one fact and that is there is no cash to spend until the Madoff litigation runs it’s course.
Which moves meets the criteria “Fixing the LONG TERM GOALS”?
Which move meets the criteria “MAKING US COMPETITIVE THIS YEAR?”
Please tell us which of those goals have been accomplished and which move accomplished them?
Are we competitive this year?
Which Player we have acquired will actually be here LONG TERM?
I await your response until about 1:30 where I go off to work!
Beat you to the punch Doc, just read the reply to your long diatribe.
I gave you a response with a hour to spare, are you running away now?
Actually it is just a difference of opinion and one evidently the Mets did not believe either. I think they did factor in the amount to be gained by keeping Reyes and that amount was exceeded by the Marlins ridiculous offer. The fact that it is back-loaded actually makes it a WORSE contract not a better one. But that is a different opinion for a different time.
Fact is that even if the Mets could have magically pulled money out of a hat and paid to keep Reyes, Krod and Beltran they STILL would not have been competitive because their SP would still suck and thus they would still lose money due to attendance all while having two players that are on the down side of their careers and committed long-term to one who has injury problems almost every year.
Just think about what fans thought the odds were that Beltran can play even half a season last year. I felt sorry for him when he hit a double because you an see the pain on his face when he ran. We know first hand about all his physical issues, let someone else pay 8m for him at this point.
Backloading is actually EXACTLY what we wanted!
Gets you cheap while you work on the revenue issue and maintain what you have and 2-3 Years to make the contract affordable!
And if you fail you can always Trade reyes who also does not have a no trade clause!
Nothing wrong with a backloaded contract provided you can still trade the player!
If revenues could not be fixed in 3 years WITH Reyes then cutting Reyes solved nothing did it?
The problem isn’t reyes’ Salary then it is mismanagement by the front office for not getting players anyone wants to see!
Actually how many teams could even acquire a 30 year old+ SS at 20M+ a year for long-term? What would the team have gotten in the long run from that?
Teams are lining up to trade their best young talent for a 20m a year 30 year old SS with bad legs, CMON MAN!
When players see a team who can’t keep it’s best players, Can’t compete within it’s own division and is only buying from the scrap heap to build, your not going to get them!
You need to give them something more than some team who is NOT like that and has a chance to give the player some glory in addition to his Salary!
When your GM goes on TV and says We can’t afford our Marquee player or LIES about the direction he is taking the team knowing full well he is dismantling not building a team…
Players and their agents know that!
players are greedy and agents are whores. Show them the most money and you can go to their house and kick their mother and sleep with their dog.
Hey, it isn’t personal. Just business.
See Cliff Lee!
The pitcher making an average of $24 million per year, second only to CC Sababthia?
that guy?
Because they know this front office the way it currently is will never build a winner. And anybody worth having wants to be paid and that is something Sandy Alderson refuses to do.
Yup, Wilpons keep urging Sandy to spend money and he flat out refuses to do so.
Jeff: Sandy you need to spend money dammit!
Sandy: No it goes against my moral fabric
Jeff: OK never mind then, just though I’d ask.
Seriously this is ridiculous as the debate that for some reason Sandy does not want to win either now or long-term.
These people are still with “there’s no money” or “there wasn’t enough money” excuse.
The author brings up more valid points and examples of how this front office is doing a TERRIBLE JOB with the money they have.
WE ALL KNOW THAT THE METS HAVE NO MONEY. WE’VE KNOWN THAT FOR A LONG TIME!!
Why these people refuse to accept that this front office is doing a lousy job with the money they have and that fact is proven by good/nice players are signing for good prices with other teams is beyond me. Why they want to leap in front of Sandy and take a bullet for him instead of rooting for the team is beyond me. The other day they were all here on this board talking a like a sorority party about how much fun they’ll have watching the minors this year and that they should meet up to do it. I wanted to VOMIT
You’d think a “METS” fan would be concerned about the team and not who the GM is. But that’s not the case anymore
SANDY ALDERSON IS DOING A TERRIBLE JOB as Mets GM so far. How many of his signing have already tanked and why aren’t ALL Mets fans upset by this instead of just of few is baffling.
Hu, Emaus, Tankersley, Boof Bonser, Bucholz, Young, you can call Paulino a bust too, Mike Baxter?????, Carrasco, Thayer – am I missing anybody?
Not much money to spend, most of your signings have been cut, injured, or left …AND PEOPLE ARE STILL DEFENDING THIS MAN.
The man is doing a BAD JOB
“Sandy Saves”
Look, I’m very happy for you that you have won your fantasy league/playstation league/little league for the last x amount of years. The reality is, jowever, that has little to do with running an actual baseball franchise.
I really don’t understand why you have such a hate boner for a guy who was mentioned in a book you’ll never read. It should be about the team, not the GM.
Just because we know the Mets have no money doesn’t mean we should ignore that fact.
That would be be akin to David cone arguing with the umpire while runners were flying around the bases.
If you have some ideas on who you’d like us to attempt to bring in let’s hear them but to just complain about every guy we do sign, or any other team signs after the fact is just chronic whinning and second guessing.
Tell us who you want before they sign somewhere and keep in mind that the more desirable guys may have more than just one option and that it’s hardly a given that the Mets would be option # 1.
“You’d think a “METS” fan would be concerned about the team and not who the GM is.”
Dang, I guess that is taking you out of the running for Mets fans?
He’s not Omar, that is why everyone loves and defends him. He has done an awful job and has made the Mets irrelevant for the near future.
I’ll be damned… you are right he is not Omar. This entire time I thought they just changed his name. Besides Bay says that Sandy is just picking up Omar’s plan and running with it anyway.
“has made the Mets irrelevant for the near future”
So, status quo?
actually it’s not status quo, the last administration brought the Mets into the playoffs with 2 successive playoff runs starting with his 2nd year inheriting less than the current administration.
So no it’s not status quo. Come back and do a podcast when, no wait, IF Sandy ever reaches those plateaus – with a bevy of young kids on the major league squad and in the minors as well.
Not status quo in the least bit
After reading the unbelievable idiocy spewed by you two Kings of Ignorance Pomes and Bayonne, I seriously do not know who the biggest losers are—you two or anyone who ever tries to debate you.
I can only imagine the real lives you must have to be this aggressive with strangers in spewing your mind-numbingly repetitive ignorance.
Omar destroyed this team with his failure to build upon 2006 and his outrageous spending on past-their-prime veterans. Omar was a HORRIBLE GM.
His legacy in Montreal was trading Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, and Lee Stephens for Bartolo Colon. That’s nearly half a very good starting lineup for half a season of a fat, mediocre pitcher.
His legacy here is one playoff series win for hundreds of millions wasted, and Johan, Pedro, Castillo, Ollie, Alou, El Duque, KRod, Putz, Bay…even the good signings like Beltran and Delgado spent forever on the DL collecting countless millions. Was 2006 worth the last five years and the next few?
Alderson’s hands are clearly tied by the Wilpons’ finances and the hangover of Omar’s horrific spending decisions.
You two give the Internet a bad name.
Get lives already. Seriously.
I think I have a crush on you Kingman 26
lolol
…….jealous.
awwwww xxoo
not winning is the status quo. Being a punchline is a status quo.
“the last administration brought the Mets into the playoffs with 2 successive playoff runs starting with his 2nd year inheriting less than the current administration.”
I know you don’t like numbers because you aren’t very good with them, but the Mets went to the playoffs one time under Minaya. Just once.
And Minaya had a crappier farm system to work with, but he also had a huge payroll to use.
“So no it’s not status quo.”
Actually, you’re right. The status quo would be if we paid someone $100 million to keep us a laughing stock.
Do you ever actually read what your write? I wish you would because you’ll realize you are the biggest hippocrate there is
Dude – just because YOU’d go after different people doesn’t mean those people would come here just because YOU say they should and doesn’t mean they’d make the team any better.
Did you really type this “You’d think a “METS” fan would be concerned about the team and not who the GM is. But that’s not the case anymore” Funny because every thing you post says the opposite.
You mention the bad signings, difference between SA and previous admins is he got rid of them FAST, whereas your lord Omar would have signed them to a long term deal. Name me one GM in the history of MLB that has 100% perfection on every signing every year? There isn’t enough bandwidth to post all the waste that your lord Omar signed, but you turn a deaf ear to that.
Wake up, or just go away already, same thing every friggen day, it wouldn’t be a day ending in Y if you didn’t second guess what the FO is doing, ignore the actual facts and say the word TERRIBLE and HORRENDOUS.
You need medication, seriously, you are mental.
What do you expect from someone who spends part of every single day blaming one player (or even one at bat) for failing to put us in the playoffs and was a vocal supporter of giving Mike Jacobs the first base job.
Ignore him, he’s like the San Fran Crab Mascot that took delight in having people throw things at him.
I don’t think it necessarily has anything to do with players avoiding the Mets as it does the Mets not matching the offers of other teams.
The Mets “having interest” in certain players doesn’t mean they put or were willing to put a better offer out there on the table.
There might be some players who don’t want to play for the Mets, but I highly doubt all these players took less money from the team they signed with than what the Mets have offered. Its much more likely that the Mets “interest” in the player never got far enough to have serious discussions about money/offers or that the team the players signed with put together a better offer than the Mets did
Well each multi year contract you sign means one less roster spot you can protect a prospect with. That has to be weighed out because this year we have guys on the 40 who because of injury or stagnation aren’t likely to help out this year so in essence your making the decision on risking one of them every time you sign a guy for more than one year.
We have guys from A+ on up that another year of evaluation is worth skimping on at the 25 if need be because their potential over 6-8 years if they make it is so much greater than what a LOOGY or 5th starter might give you this year.
Guys like Flores, Kirk, Armando Rodriguez, Lagares, Mejia, Familiam Carson, Havens and Puello Which one’s going to hit big? Who knows but we’ll have a better chance of knowing if we can keep them while going year to year with some of the secondary pieces.
Is the potential upside on a guy like Taka, Dotel or Bell, Choate or Capuano worth that risk looking at things long range? For that matter was Carrasco or Francisco worth that risk themselves? But still and all the chance to sign a multi year deal right away takes away a fair amount of players we could have gotten here.
Add in players going to teams with the chance to win right away or even just play close to home and the inability to over pay and you just further constrict the choices.
Then you need spots on the 40 for AAA depth as well or you wind up losing a guy through roster mismanagement. The whole key to protecting your prospects is to get them to AAA by year 4 or 5 so they can be both your prospects and your AAA depth but we have an awful lot of guys needing protection still in or just promoted from A+.
Lose too many of those guys and we’ll never get on top of this thing.