16
2012
Newsday: 2014 Payroll Commitments
An article by Craig Lerner
David Lennon of Newsday took a look at every MLB team’s payroll commitments from 2014 and beyond. The list does not include vesting or team options and the data was compiled using Cot’s Baseball Contracts:
1. Angels : $274.5 million, with Albert Pujols ($189 million from 2015 through 2021), Jered Weaver and C.J. Wilson ($38 million through 2016 each) and Howie Kendrick ($9.5 million for 2015) the recipients.
2. Colorado : $167 million, all to two players: Troy Tulowitzki ($114 million through ’20) and Carlos Gonzalez ($53 million through ’17).
3. Detroit: $166 million, with $144 million going to new guy Prince Fielder (through ’20) and $22 million more to Miguel Cabrera for ’15.
4. Boston : 159.25 million., with Adrian Gonzalez ($85 million through ’18), Carl Crawford ($62.25 million through ’17) the primary beneficiaries and Clay Buccholz picking up $12 million for ’15.
5. Yankees : $154 million, splits among the trio of Alex Rodriguez ($61 million through ’17), CC Sabathia ($48 million through ’16) and Mark Teixeira ($45 million through ’16).
6. Dodgers : $107 million, all to Matt Kemp through ’18.
7. Milwaukee : $103 million, all to Ryan Braun through ’20.
8. Minnesota : $92 million, all to Joe Mauer through ’18.
9. Washington : $88.811 million, divvied up among Jayson Werth ($64.711 million through ’17), Gio Gonzalez ($23 million through ’16) and youngster Bryce Harper $1 million in ’15).
10. Philadelphia : $88 million, with Ryan Howard getting $50 million through ’16, Cliff Lee $25 million in ’15 and Jonathan Papelbon $13 million in ’15.
11. Miami : $86 million, split between new arrivals Jose Reyes ($66 million through ’17) and Mark Buehrle ($20 million in ’15).
12. Texas : $49 million, with $31 million for Japanese rookie Yu Darvish and $18 million for Adrian Beltre.
13. St. Louis : $43.375 million, with Matt Holliday receiving $34 million through ’16 and Jaime Garcia getting $9.375 million in ’15.
14. White Sox : $41.5 million, with newly extended John Danks getting $31.5 million through ’16 and Alexei Ramirez receiving $10 million in ’15.
15. Arizona : $26.908 million split between 2015 paychecks to Justin Upton ($14.708 million) and Trevor Cahill ($12.2 million).
16. Cincinnati : $24.584 million, all for Jay Bruce through ’16.
17. Toronto : $21.5 million, featuring 2015 paychecks for Jose Bautista ($14 million) and Ricky Romero ($7.5 million).
18. Atlanta : $13.2 million, all for Dan Uggla in ’15.
19. Oakland : $10.5 million for the just signed Yoenis Cespedes in ’15.
20. Pittsburgh : $8.834 million for Jose Tabata through ’16.
21. Tampa Bay : $8 million for rookie Matt Moore through ’16.
22. (tie) Baltimore, Cubs, Cleveland, Houston, Kansas City, Mets, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle : $0.
Coincidentally, this fits in with Joe D.’s theory that all would be well and that the Wilpons will be completely out of the woods by the start of 2014. I can’t believe the position the Angels will find themselves in and what a complete disaster lies ahead for that franchise especially if they dont win a championship between now and then.
I would have thought the Phillies would be in a bad position here, but honestly $88 million isn’t much for a large market team that spends twice that amount annually.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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Just to understand…the teams left off this have no commitments from 2014 and on?
I still think the Phillies will be sorry. Unless something has changed their revenues at the park are definitely tied into their current win streak the past several year. They’re not the Cubs. Those fans don’t come out to the park if they’re not winning. When they were at the Vet when Mets were playing a series there, you’d see more Met fans than Phillie fans most of the time.
I’m kind of glad we don’t have any huge contracts tied up for several years with players on the wrong side of 30. However….not to encouraged by the fact that right now we don’t have any super star type power guys in the minors. If we did, the fact that the team doesn’t have much money tied up would be looking a whole lot brighter.
Here’s hoping guys like Ike and Duda will provide the power for some years to come. (Got my fingers crossed Duda can play at least a serviceable corner OF.)
the phils are an example of what could be a big issue or a non-issue.
If Howard recovers and Lee stays healthy and they are leading the team to the playoffs, then the money is a non issue.
But, if Howard is shot and Lee is doing what Santana was doing last year, then that is a lot of dead wood for any team to be carrying.
Looks like the Mets are in good company. lol Padres, Royals, Cubs, Mariners, Orioles, Indians? A sign of things to come, I’m sure. We are in Build A Farm Workskop like them. And here I thought we were the only smart ones in the building. :-O
well, “0″ certainly qualifies as future flexibility.
Hmm…..I’ve got the first comment on this thread and it’s tagged ‘awaiting moderation’.
Have no idea why. Just an observation comment and I’m not seeing any words in it that wouldn’t pass a commenting policy.
New posting guidelines? If yes, anyone know what the criteria is now?
That happens to me occasionally.
It happens Randomly SRT, Joe D has mentioned this numerous times!
O.K. thanks. I must have missed that….
Yeah, I said junk ie and I got moderated.
Dang….can’t spot the word(s) that might be hanging it up.
LOL….no biggie.
I just wonder why so many people seem to be way more concerned with 2014 than the next two years?
What is the difference if they suck the next two years or after 2014 pray tell?
What constitutes a GOOD time to suck?
And what makes now any better than later?
Yes there are financial problems, none of which rebuilding will solve! Not now and not later!
Winning solves them faster than giving up and taking a break on trying to compete! Having a team people believe in solves the issues!
I see lots of folks saying by 2014 our problems will be over which is only true if the cuts made aren’t offset by the loss of ticket sales due to lack of interest and competitive chance! Only true if you get a ROY or TWO out of all these kids we say we are going to have which so far amounts to Wheeler and maybe Nimmo, neither of which is a likely opening day starter in 2014!
But all the financial problems could be solved by the end of this year if the team had even a sliver of hope of making the playoffs because people would go to see them and bring in the revenue needed to solve the problems and meet the payroll!
Sucking now does not make 2014 more promising what it does is make the amount of work needed to make 2014 promising just that much harder!
going backwards does not make it easier to move forward it just makes the distance you have to go that much further than it had to be!
‘Winning solves them faster’
Agree with this…in a nutshell.
Other factors will play into the money situation with this team – as we all know – but the better the winning record usually = better revenues.
Attendance though is a two part story….
First part is offseason impressions and moves that generate Season Ticket sales. This is where the Majority of the Revenue is generated as it is guaranteed regardless of the Wins and Losses for that season and who decides to go! Someone buying a Full Season ticket is buying 81 games where the guy who goes because they are winning can only buy as many tickets as are left after the winning happened! Usually at most we are talking 40 tickets as these IMPULSE buys are not made until June or July when half the season is over!
Attendance gained by winning is only 50% of the revenue compared to those who had hope before the seaosn started.
Winning in the previous year can help in those offseason sales though!
But winning DURING a season only helps minimally in increasing sales in the year the winning happens!
If you sell few season tickets and start winning and competing you will increase sales but only sales on impulse buys! This happened last June and July and then went away after the trades of K-Rod and Beltran! Reyes and Murphy going down soon after only made that problem worse! People lost hope at that point and attendance went down. In June it was reported the Mets might only lose 50 Mil, but that was assuming attendance remained the same as it was in June and July! Didn’t happen!
People go based on HOPE not wins! Wins can give them hope but only during the time they are winning! Where the winning does the most good is it carries over into the offseason where season ticket sales go up. But you can also increase ticket sales merely by signing a player that also gives the fans hope!
Marlins did that and so did the Angels! Whatever they are paying the guys they got will be covered financially by the extra season tickets they will sell because of the hope those players bring with them!
And while winning the previous year can inspire ticket sales the following year, if the perception is that the players who got you the wins won’t be there next year the winning will not help!
To fix the financial problems requires giving fans hope in the offseason that this year will be worth going to see and investing in a season full of tickets!
Start off with a good base of attendance, win some games and compete and the impulse buys can then sell out what you failed to sell in the offseason!
And if people have less hope at a 95Mil Salary than they had at 140Mil it won’t really matter that you saved 45 Mil because you probably lost 30-40 mil in attendance which washes away anything you thought you were saving!
Problem with your theory is outside of signing Fielder or Pujols,no one else on the free agent market was a big enough name to drive up ticket sales.People weren’t buying tickets when Reyes was here so I don’t see why they would suddenly flock to Citifield to buy tickets if they at least resigned Reyes.Not to mention they weren’t in a position to spend on a Pujols or Fielder even if Ike wasn’t in the fold.
Same with keeping Beltean and K-Rod beyond 2011.Attendance had been going down steadily since the novelty of a brand new ballpark wore off.
This may not be the best way to offset losses but for the Mets and their current financial situation,it was the only way. When you can’t afford big ticket items to drive up sales,then your stuck until these kids develope and change the fortunes of the franchse. If they don’t have the impact on the field that they’re banking on.Things will get worse and possibly force them to sell team.
Attendance with Reyes,Beltran and K-Rod was still declining.I was at at least 4 games in June and another 3-4 games in July and the attendance was only marginally better than it was in April and May. A lot of that had to do with the lousy early season weather too.
Winning will eventually solve these attendance issues.Unfortunately it will have to come from the players within.There is no choice unless Wilpon and Katz reach into their own pockets which will never happen.If you can’t bring in big names,you can’t bring in big names.If the building from within fails then it will probably force their hands.
As far as the losses are concerned.Fred did that interview for NY magazine early in the season during the Colorado sweep and he forcasted an approximate 70 million dollar loss less than 20 games into the season.I don’t know where you saw it reported that they forecasted a 50 million dollar loss in June but I’m interested to see the link.
Unforunately there is no perfect way to get around them mess that the franchise is in right now. We could all speculate but neither one of us has ever had to build a franchise before which makes neither one of us or anybody else on the outside the organization an expert.
You don’t see why there would be MORE tickets sold if reyes was here…
But that kind of depends on “MORE THAN WHAT?”
More than LAST year? If thats the benchmark then did they INCREASE ticket sales this year or did they go DOWN now that reyes isn’t here?
Care to hazard a guess and provide the logic you used to make that guess?
Do you REALLY believe MORE people will buy tickets now than would have bought if Reyes was retained, the Rebuild didn’t appear to need to take so long, and might even give you a shot at competitive season because you had a very entertaining and exciting player to go see?
Do you need a Feilder or a Pujols to draw more people? NO!
But you need more than Rauch and Francisco who at best only pitch an inning a game if your lucky to be at the game they didn’t pitch in the day before!
Would Signing Beltran increase ticket sales? Probably would have since it would be a sign that the FO has not given up on the next two years and was determined to STAY competitive as opposed to wiping the slate clean with KMart players and drafting his way to the wins you all think are going to happen in 2014!
In the meantime you have two years of losses in attendance to have to pay back and no amount of winning in 2014 is going to pay that debt!
Would Pujols or Fielder made a big dent in the finances both on an attendance level and on a payroll level? Maybe both but we already had Ike which is good AND cheap and that money might have been better spent on CJ Wilson or even Oswalt both of which are cheaper than the two 1B Bombers and would vastly improve the Starting rotation for half to 3/4s the price!
It doesn’t even need to be a FA signing that inspires the sales! A good trade for someone good who improves a position to competitive plusses would get the job done just as well!
Ramirez is not that trade! Package Pagan with some other kids we don’t really have room for such as Pridie, Evans maybe even Mejia gets you a much bigger HOPE player than Ramirez and Torres!
Maybe a REAL CF who can add to the offense! Maybe a real #2 SP as well!
But to assume because we didn’t sell ENOUGH tickets when reyes was here made his draw expendable is just ignorance!
You LOST attendance!
Signing him may not have appeared to GAIN attendance but it would give hope that we are NOT giving up and at least MAINTAINED the attendance from last year that made the losses only 70 mil as opposed to the 80-90 mil it might have been without Reyes!
Bottomline is you lost 70 Mil WITH the draw Reyes brought to the stands and saved 50 which means even if you draw the EXACT SAME as last year your still losing 20 Mil after you 50 Mil of cuts!
And we all know that without Reyes your not going to draw the same as last year! Especially not with all the predictions of how bad we are going to be this year!
Reyes may not have increased the draw but he would have at least maintained what we had!
None of the moves made will make up for it and cutting salary is only going to make even MORE people lose hops and skip buying!
Which will seem like a good idea until you hit rock bottom on attendance and can’t find anything else to cut to meet the finances that rock bottom attendance supports!
And then what do you do?
Win? HOW? WITH WHO? Rookies? NO FA’s?
Ask the Pirates and Oakland how well that works!
You don’t see why there would be MORE tickets sold if reyes was here…
But that kind of depends on “MORE THAN WHAT?”
No.Season ticket sales have dropped each of the last 3 offseasons with Reyes,With Reyes and with K-Rod and that was with the signing of Jason Bay(allstar) before the 2010 season.
Do you REALLY believe MORE people will buy tickets now than would have bought if Reyes was retained, the Rebuild didn’t appear to need to take so long, and might even give you a shot at competitive season because you had a very entertaining and exciting player to go see?
No,more people will not buy tickets without Reyes.Those same people did not buy tickets with Reyes,Beltran,Krod,Bay,Wright,Ike. Winning will eventually sell tickets.They haven’t been competitive in 4 years.That was not going to change bringing back any of the 3 they lost.What they lost in terms of players offsets a huge part of what they lost in terms of dollars.
Attendance in 2012 was going down anyway. Unless a Fielder or Pujols typ star was brought in. Nobody is going to the ballpark to watch CJ Wilson or Roy Oswalt pitch. Good pitchers not big draws.People pay to see the Roy Halladay’s,Cliff Lee’s. Not CJ Wilson and definitely not a broken down Roy Oswalt who can’t even find employment right now.Again they couldn’t afford those guys even if they wanted them.CJ, 77 million. If you haven’t realized by now they can’t spend that money than you’ll never come to terms with the fact that they’re not spending big bucks on players until the finances get settled
.
It doesn’t even need to be a FA signing that inspires the sales! A good trade for someone good who improves a position to competitive plusses would get the job done just as well!
Ramirez is not that trade! Package Pagan with some other kids we don’t really have room for such as Pridie, Evans maybe even Mejia gets you a much bigger HOPE player than Ramirez and Torres!
Maybe a REAL CF who can add to the offense a real #2 SP as well.
Who do you think you’re gettiing for Pagan,Pridie,Evans and or Mejia who’s recovering from TJ surgery are gonna get you back? You’re not getting anythng good unless you trade one of the big prospects Wheeler,Harvey,etc. There were no decent CF’s available. Who’s the number 2 starter that fits into our budget. Edwin Jackson for 12 mil?
But to assume because we didn’t sell ENOUGH tickets when reyes was here made his draw expendable is just ignorance! I know you’re famous for putting words in peoples mouth so good try. What makes Jose expendable was the fact that he would’ve cost 106 million over 6 years and he hasn’t stayed on the field regularly since 2008. A long time ago in baseball years.
You LOST attendance!
Signing him may not have appeared to GAIN attendance but it would give hope that we are NOT giving up and at least MAINTAINED the attendance from last year that made the losses only 70 mil as opposed to the 80-90 mil it might have been without Reyes!
I lost attendance? LOL.Having him last year was a sign we weren’t giving up and the year before that and attendance still went down. Attendance has been declining with him the last 3 years and it would’ve continued to decline because the majority of the fanbase realizes that this group will not win.It has been proven by them year after year.
Bottomline is you lost 70 Mil WITH the draw Reyes brought to the stands and saved 50 which means even if you draw the EXACT SAME as last year your still losing 20 Mil after you 50 Mil of cuts!
And we all know that without Reyes your not going to draw the same as last year! Especially not with all the predictions of how bad we are going to be this year! With or without Reyes we were not going to draw the same as last year until the team proves to the fan base it can win and like I’ve said they’ve proven that they couldn’t by underperfoming,and or always injured. Time to move in a different direction.
Reyes may not have increased the draw but he would have at least maintained what we had!
None of the moves made will make up for it and cutting salary is only going to make even MORE people lose hops and skip buying
Reyes would not have maintained attendance as proven by the increasing numbers of season ticket holders cancelling their renewals.The 2nd part is correct,none of the moves will make up for it but that’s the only choice they have. If the kids don’t turn around by 2014 it will get worse,you’re right but that’s the gamble that they have no other choice but to take. There’s is no money to spend.None of us knows if they’ll be the saviors.We all hope they will.You just keep on believing what you want to believe what we think. Until you show me your GM resume,stop acting like you know how to run a franchise better than the people we have in place.
You and metsie getting paid by the word?
Hey, I kid, I kid…
though metsie seems to get paid a bonus per !
One thing I missed and I do agree with you on was when you said the rebuild shouldn’t have to take as long. You’re right. I have been calling for a complete gutting of the team since the end of 2008.I’ve taken abuse for it even by my own family members but they could’ve capitalized on extreemely high trade values of a young and decently priceed Reyes and Wright,Beltran to an extent even though his contract prohibited the number of teams they could’ve traded him too but after 2 choke jobs I never felt like that team would ever get back to the glory of 2006.
Sandy should’ve or at least could’ve traded both Wright and Reyes as soon as he got here and begun the dismantling of the team instead of waiting to see how it played out. We lost out on trading for Reyes and Wright’s value has plummeted. Hindsight but I have been praying for a rebuild and it took 3 years of watching lousy baseball give or take a few months to finally get my wish.
Also if you read my first post in it’s entirety you would’ve saw where I said if the big pitchers don’t pan out,we’re basically screwed and it may force them to sell. So it’s a gamble but it’s the only thing they can do given the finances.
“I have been calling for a complete gutting of the team since the end of 2008″
yes when embarking on Revenge it is best to dig two graves!
Your has been dug in the cellar of the NL East in case you need to find it!
Still missing the forr trying to find a tree here Fonz….
Point is how much would it have gone down two years ago if reyes was traded then?
You keep pointing that Attendance went down but HAVING reyes has nothing to do with that!
Beltran being hurt for both those years, Santana being hurt for them as well, The fact that pelfrey was your ACE last year and Sandy came out from the get go saying he was going to rebuild made those tickets go away, not the fact Reyes was here! If he hadn’t been MORE would have gone away!
So your whole logic is predicated on REYES BY HIMSELF couldn’t make ticket sales go up which is about as rediculous as sayign Reyes should have won us a WS all by himself and because he didn’t he sucks!
Which is the other excuse you guys make when you try and justify getting rid of one of the best SSs in the game today!
Well gues what NOW you lost those tickets you refuse to admit were there because of reyes and guess what now you lose Wright because of it!
And I know you like that idea too beause in truth your more about GETTING EVEN with the guys who were here in 2007 and 2008 because your mad they didn’t win like you EXPECTED (much like you expected this year as well) and you don’t really CARE or KNOW what affect it will have on the team you just want them gone so you get your pound of flesh for disappointing you!
Great you will get your revenge and a crappy team that wins nothing, draws nothing and has no FINANCES because of it to go and get someone who can change all that!
Ticket sales and actually using them is more dependent on the hope of having a winning team more than anything. The superstar is more of a draw for people going out to see him when he comes into town.
People just weren’t coming out to see Reyes, Wright or Beltran but this is where having a less exciting team hurts. Ratings. Everyone knew Beltran was gone by the end of 2011 but he was still a guy you wanted to see and certainly Wright and even more so Reyes fit that category.
The worst thing would be for the Mets to be boring and incompetent. That would drag the SNY revenue to the ground; maybe not this year but the sales force would certainly feel it next year.
Doesn’t reallymatter if they get used at all tag….
Sure if they are used you make more on concessions but that is a pittance compared to the price of the tickets that don’t get refunded if you do not go!
Sell the season tickets and you will get more attendance just because people won’t waste it by not going, they will show up no matter how bad the team is just to get some of their money’s worth.
Winning helps to sell the remaining tickets that did not go to season plans but that usually doesn’t happen until half the season is over and some people get convinced the getting is good!
Sell more Season tickets and it will be harder to get good seats day of game on impulse, people will then plan further ahead and buy tickets that have nothing to do with the winning or losing!
It’s a snowball effect! If you sell season tickets well in the offseason that money is in the bank that pays all the bill and the rest is all profit!
We drew 2.4 Mil last year with Reyes, Beltran and K-Rod…
Lets just say 70% of that was season ticket sales!
That means 8K Season Tickets sold (times 81)
If that goes down even 1% imagine how much the team is going to lose DESPITE cutting 55 Mil from payroll!
Yeah but metsie season ticket holders haven’t been renewing. I know it’s a different era and cannot be truly considered the same thing but at one time we had a bunch of guys here who we all kind of grew up with.
Seaver, Grote, Harrellson, Koozman, Kranepool. Even when we weren’t in the thick of it, it was still fun coming to see our guys. that flattens out the wild swings in attendance too. No team can be expected to be in it every year but having some continuity on the team helps keep things stable.
It was the combination of losing guys we were familiar with, having terrible teams and not replacing the lost talent with guys who would be here and play well during their years here that caused the wild downturn. Foster didn’t bring in the crowds. It took a while after Mookie, Hubie, Oquendo started coming up and coincided with us winning 90 games with a very likeable bunch of young guys who played well. Keith was acquired, Gooden Darling and Straw were on the way, you started to hear about Sid, Aguilera, Dykstra, and fans regained their lost hope and came out in big numbers for seven years.
Why would theyenew when they don’t see the team going forward?
Why would they renew with what we did this year?
Why wouldn;’t they just wait until 2014-2015 to renew and how much money do we lose until this turtle philosophy produces enough wins to pay the bills?
You guys keep saying we are saving the money to spend later!
But if no one goes while you do that there won’t BE any money to spend later!
They will have to do what you don’t want to do go out and buy some hope for big buck and risk taking a loss if he doesn’t draw enough to pay his way!
How many people were buying tickets in 2003 to go see Alomar, Burnitz and Vaughn?
Your argiung with me based on what you think I’m saying,instead of what I’m actually saying. You have done this for years here so it was silly of me to think you would debate with me any differently.That’s what people do when they don’t have a leg to stand on and can’t win the debate.Then the childish insults usually follow. When you fully comprehend what I wrote,get back to me.
I have had to make that statement so many times with a few people.At first I though it was a reading comprehension issue. Now I am convinced that they just want to argue with them selves and somehow we just get caught into it.
And I know exactly who you’re talking about. You sabergoon sandy lover. lol
Well you said you wanted to dismantle a team that came within 3 games of winning the division and one game short of the Wildcard!
What logical reason do you have for that if not REVENGE on them falling short?
Was the Winning just TOO MUCH for you to take which is why your happy there is no chance at that with the moves we recently made?
Go ahead and explain WHY you wanted to dismantle a team that was one win shy of the wildcard!
Can’t wait to hear it and I’m sure children of ALL ages will be amused to hear it!
Because they proved they could not win as a group. They choked substantial leads 2 years in a row,one a ridiculous 7 game lead with 17 to play getting their asses handed to them by the Marlins and Nationals. Not once,twice.
They could’ve gotten a boatload of talent back for Wright,Reyes and Beltran to a lesser extent because of his contract.Had they done that it’s possible by now they’d be on the rise and the money problems wouldn’t have been half as severe.
They did the exact opposite and tried to win with a group that couldn’t come up big with the chips on the table and the sickening part is who they lost those games to. Marlins and Natonals. Now we’re paying a steeeeep price for putting bandaids on a disease with high priced free gents.
Trading those guys may have hurt attendance but the salaries would’ve been subtracted and guys like Bay and Perez would not have been signed. All teams rebuid at one point or another. The this is NY bullshit is just that bullshit. When a team shows it cannot win as a group,you rebuild it,not patch it up with free agents.Never works.
Too bad for you as they DID win as a group!
They missed the playoffs by ONE GAME!
They won 88 and 89 games consecutively!!!
How many they going to win this year more or less?
What did you accomplish pray tell?
I’ll tell you!
REDUCED ATTENDANCE and no WINNING in the next 3 years!
GREAT JOB!
Too bad for you as they DID win as a group!
They missed the playoffs by ONE GAME!
They won 88 and 89 games consecutively
Oh so lets pat them on the back for choking away 2 playoff berths because they won 88-89 games but CHOKED when they had a 7 game lead with 17 to play and a 4 game lead with 9 to play by getting whipped by the lowly Marlins and Nationals.You’re such a hypocrite! You knock Billy Beane for only making the playoffs and think we won when we didn’t.
How many they going to win this year more or less? Not much less than they’ve won the last 3 years.
What did you accomplish pray tell? I didn’t accomplish anything.I don’t work for the Mets.What they accomplished is yet to be determined. It’s called rebuilding.
I’ll tell you!
REDUCED ATTENDANCE and no WINNING in the next 3 years! Just like the last 3 years only it’s not costing 140 million to watch attendance dwindle.It’s only costing 90 and the players would be the same with or without Reyes since he’d eventually end up on the DL. Now they don’t have to pay 2 people to play SS and one 106 million to sit in a hot tub,
GREAT JOB!
I wouldn’t call the disaster Omar created a great job but you’re the same guy who thinks Beltran was better than Ken Griffey Jr and Greg Maddux didn’t have good stuff so I’m not surprised at all. I rest my case.
Lets put it this way Fonzie…
They won more games then that they will now that you GOT what you wanted!
Lets see how you react to them missing the playoffs by 20 games and then you can tell us all how that is so much better than the team you wanted dismantled!
What’s the difference if they miss the playoffs by 20 games or by 13 games? Missing the playoffs is missing the playoffs. I’d rather miss by 20 than miss by 1 two years in a row after having commanding leads with 17 games to play one year and 9 games to play the next.
Rebuilding more often than not requires taking steps backwards before you move forward.You knew this would take time to rebuild.You said so last year when Sandy was introduced as GM.You even said back in the summer that you can’t blame a guy who’s been on the job for 6 months. Unless there’s 2 Metsies on MMO that’s what you were saying then.
Seems like you just like to say the opposite of the regulars here that you dislike.
I don’t go to Met games to see stars only.I’m one of the guys that goes no matter who’s wearing orange and blue.I’m what you call a fan.If it takes 1 year,2 years,3 years, to rebuild so be it. I’d rather watch the young guys coming up and develope over 16 million dollar LFers who can’t hit their way out of a wet paper bag.Once they start to develope,then you’ll get your stars,whether they’re homegrown,trade for or signed as free agents. I guess we won’t see you at the park until then.
“What’s the difference if they miss the playoffs by 20 games or by 13 games? ”
About 7 games if my math is correct!
Whats the difference if you miss the playoffs by one game and making the playoffs?
One sucks and the other is a keeper?
Over one measly game? DISMANTLE!
Yeah that makes a lot of sense now doesn’t it?
Lost by one measly game after choking away 7 game lead with 17 to play and a 4 game lead with 9 to play to 2 of the worst teams in the NL and after leading a handfull of games by 4 and 5 runs. Choked no once but twice to 2 lousy teams and haven’t played 500 ball since. Oh yeah they played 593 ball last June. Sorry,my bad.
Still you wanted to dismantle a team one win away from the playoffs but LOVE a team who is 20 games away!
Yep thats the statement of a SANE individual isn’t it?
You ARE a met fan aren’t you?
you DO want to see them win as ,many games as possible right?
If dismantling a team that was one win away from the playoffs two years in a row is the right move then what drastic measure should we make when the team is 20 games away?
Shouldn’t we fire the GM for not even having a team that could get that close?
There’s a difference between falling a game short and choking away 2 playoff berths to 2 awful teams 2 straight years. You should question your own fanhood. I buy tickets no matter who wears the uniform,you on the other hand only go when there are stars on the team.
When were they 20 games out? I must’ve missed that season. If that year is this year then so be it,They’re REBUILDING! You don’t get better the same year you start rebuilding,go ask Frank Cashen who a bunch of moron Met fans were calling for his head when he traded Lee Mazzilli. Go root for the Yankees,you’ll get your stars every year.
You keep trying to convince yourself of that!
You’ll feel better about being 20games out later in the season!
You can use that backwards thinking to console yourself for not even being in a position to choke!
You wanted to dismantle a team one win away from the playoffs!
Pray tell what do you propose to do when the team is no where near the playoffs? Sign them all to long term deals?
Is that your grand strategy?
I’m not trying to convince myself. I’m totally convinced. You have a crystal ball? You know they’re going to be 20 games out? I know Omar would sign them to long term deals if they finish 20 games out. Rebuilding years are about evaluating your young players as they come up.We were’nt going to the playoffs if we stayed with the same nucleous as we’ve had here since 2005.They kept proving it. Now we’re rebuilding the right way.Through the farm system. If you don’t have the stomach for it then I suggest you go root for the Yankees. I stuck around during the bad times from 77-83,I’ll stick around now. Tear down your Jose Reyes poster.It’s time to move on.
Yah My nephew is convinced Santa bought him the Android Tablet I bought him for christmass too!
So whats the difference between being one game away from the playoffs and what you think was worth dismatling?
Are you CLOSER to a World series now that you got what you wanted?
How many games closer pray tell?
“Winning solves them faster than giving up and taking a break on trying to compete! ”
If the Mets had been winning, half of the problems wouldn’t currently exist. The franchise has been bleeding money and with the Madoff case, there are not presently reserves to dip into.
So, no, sucking now doesn’t solve everything, but there really isn’t much else to do. There is not enough money to go and get a “star”. And even if there was, it wouldn’t fix the problems in the long term. Mainly because that is something the Mets have tried and fans would see through. It would probably make things worse.
So, all there is to do right now is piece together a 25 man roster, be smart with the little money there is available, develop the farm so we can have some home grown stars in a few years, and hope the Wilpons don’t get hurt too bad by the Madoff case so they can pump in whatever money might be needed in a few years.
Uhhh hate to break it to you but they WERE winning in June and July (.519 and .593 Win Pct) but then something happened to stop it all….
I wonder what that was?
And I wonder who thought it was better to lose now in the name of 2014 and wave the white flag instead of seeing the season through and wait for the Massive slide the Braves took to take over the Wildcard?
Gots yourself a Mirror there bud?
“Uhhh hate to break it to you but they WERE winning in June and July (.519 and .593 Win Pct) but then something happened to stop it all….
I wonder what that was?”
Probably whatever it was that made them still a barely .500 team even with that big July…
Oh, ya, they weren’t that good. Cuz the games in April count the same as the games in July.
“And I wonder who thought it was better to lose now in the name of 2014 and wave the white flag instead of seeing the season through and wait for the Massive slide the Braves took to take over the Wildcard?”
People who realized banking on the other 5 teams ahead of us to tank is a terrible idea. See, you keep running away from that. The Mets weren’t just 7 games back or whatever it was. They were in 6th place at the trade deadline.
“Gots yourself a Mirror there bud?”
Uh, ya, I’ve been pretty open about realizing what this team actually was.
Yeah the Cardinals wou;d say otherwise…they were even further back than we were a month later!
They should have packed it in and shot for 2014 as well right?
The Cardinals didn’t have the financial restrictions that dictated trading Beltran and K-Rod. You know that.
Neither would we if we had madthe Wildcard and won the WS!
Attendance was on the way up until we made the trades!
And if if kept going we might not have lost a single penny!
Those financial restraints were present at the time, and a fairytale is not reason enough not to address those issues. On June 1st, the Mets had a 1.1% chance of making the playoffs.The cards had a 77.5% chance of making the playoffs.
What makes you think the Mets were even close to good enough?
No they were not…Remember the quotes? Moneyball with Money?
Forgot when he said that didn’t you?
he didn’t have to cut players he could have drew more fans with a BUY and fixed the finances!
Only guys like you, jess and Donal take the easy and ineffective route that doesn’t lead to savings but MORE revenue issues because no one buys tickets!
So tell us all X how much money is the team going to make this year?
We lost 70 last year and cut 55!
What math are you using to come out with a positive number?
“he didn’t have to cut players he could have drew more fans with a BUY and fixed the finances!”
That’s why they lost the money in the first place!! Can’t you see how you’re running yourself around in circles?
Not that’s not why they lost mone in the first place!
They lost money because they didn’t sell tickets!
They didn’t lose a penny from 2005-2009!
And they had a much higher Payroll then!
They stopped selling tickets because they started losing.They started losing and it hasn’t stopped,hence ticket sale plummeted.They didn’t lose money from 05-08 because they had winning records.When your team continues to lose,you dismantle it.Especially when that losing team is bleeding cash and has 3 players taking up 2/3rds of your payroll.Kinda makes it hard to put bandaids all over when you’re bleeding to death.
They stopped selling tickets because they had twon injury plauged seasons!
Thats also why they lost!
Because Beltran missed half of two seasons, Santana missed parts of one and the entire 2010 season, and Bay missed half a season as well!
Not because they spent money as you dopehats propose!
People didn’t stop buying tickets because the player got hurt,they stopped because they started losing and nobody said it was because they spent money but we all know how you make up stuff to make you look like you know what you’re talking about.Grow up.
Got proof or is this just another circle jerk throwing shit up you can’t prove hoping to not get caught making up a story you want to believe but can’t prove?
Why did they lose again?
Oh year they all got hurt and were out over the course of TWO SEASONS!
Why?
Maybe it was because they didn’t let Beltran get operated on when he wanted to and made him wait until the season was close to starting therefore missing more time than he should have!
They stopped selling tickets because they kept artificially raising the fan bases expectations and then seeing the team flame out every August.
In business you cannot continually disappoint your customers year after year without eventually losing many of them.
People often say that you can’t rebuild in NY but that’s wrong. The NYY did exactly that in the early 90′s and that formed the basis of the powerhouse they’ve become over the last 15 years.
The simple fact is you cannot put all your eggs in one three year period, fail to deliver, crash to the bottom of the NL East for a 3rd time in two decades and not expect a negative fan reaction.
If instead of a baseball team we were talking about a restaurant that continually failed to live up to the hype they would have been out of business 20 years ago. Sports fans are so much more passionate and loyal but there are limits to everyone’s patience
The fact is that the fan base wants a solid consistent product year in and year out and we understand that not every year will we be in it to the last day but those near misses should represent our worst years, not our best one’s.
Three post seasons, three near misses and 3 barely .500 teams, twelve losing seasons of which six were of the 90+ variety in 21 years are absolutely abysmal results. So bad in fact it would be hard to duplicate them even if that’s what you were aiming for.
Want to sell tickets? Give us good, very good and outstanding ball players here for 6-10 years in their prime all at once and keep filling in behind them with more of the same.
Oh we moved from being out if it in July to August now?
Is that today’s SEMANTICAL exercise?
Were they out of it in September from 2006-2008?
Same question as put to you when you made July the day we supposedly blew the season!
Or are we now going to go back 23 years to when the GM you liked was here and won nothing for his his entire tenure with the team!
Injuries were a good excuse for 2009 but not for 2010.They were 11 games over 500 in 2010 without Beltran.Nobody else was hurt in 2010 except for a Reyes stint on the DL for an oblique strain and when they all got back after the allstar break they tanked the season. That same year in 2010 the Rsdox lost Pedroia,Ellsbury and Youkilis for the year,lost Beckett,Matsuzaka and Lester for extended periods and won 89 games.We didn’t even have players that good let alone lose players that good. Proof is in the pudding.
No? Beltran, and Bay didn’t miss half a season each?
Santana didn’t get hurt? Niese and Igarashi never went down?
Rodriguez didn’t hurt himself and miss half a season?
Hmm news to me!
And anyone who knows anything about what happened in 2010!
And we were in it right up until Sandy decided to only take another half season of KRod and Beltran and give up!
Funny how you blame a team for blowing a chance by one win but don’t cast that REVENGE mode on the GM who blew one just as quickly?
And in the much more likely event of the opposite happening? If the starting rotation stopped performing over its head? If it became painfully obvious that one league average closer doesn’t make a good bullpen?
What then? What do you say when Beltran walks away for nothing and we have another year of Rodriguez at$17.5?
IF things go bad is not an excuse to ENSURE things get worse!
Self Perpetuated prophesy is all you did!
You MADE SURE there was no chance and the cards proved that there WAS a chance!
You Quit!
“Yeah the Cardinals wou;d say otherwise…they were even further back than we were a month later!”
Where were the Cardinals at the trade deadline? Tied for first in their division and second fort he Wild Card. They were 1 of the 5 teams in front of the Mets.
“They should have packed it in and shot for 2014 as well right?”
Were they hemorrhaging money and desperate to get out from a 17.5 million vesting option? Were they about to have a player of Carlos Beltran’s caliber walk away for absolutely nothing?
Was there anything they could have done to change their situation on August 31st?
The answer to all 3 is “no” because they were in a completely different situation from the Mets.
Where were they in August? Closer or FURTHER away than a team you think should have quit and given up?
On 8/1, the Cards were 3.5 GB of the playoffs.
Ahh wplaying ndar tag now?
Were they CLOSER to winning the wildcard on 8-25 than we were on 7-28 genius?
You know the date you and Jessup said was Game over we couldn’t come back from?
7.5 games in July is much more impossible to make up in July than they are in the last week of August?
Is that YOUR position?
Is this where you claim I’m nuts and not worth even talking to?
Tell us all…
Who was closer to overtaking the Braves for the Wildcard?
Mets on July 28th or the Cards one month later on August 25th?
Can you just cool your friggen jets for one night? If you want to fight people in comment sections, go to the HuffPo or something. Tonight’s not the night.
Is that you equivilent of NO MAS?
You guys started it all I’m doing is finishing it!
You don’t want me to reply to the crap you keep shoveling drop the damn shovel!
No that’s my equivalent of having respect for the team that I love. These pissing matches are the same every day and it needs a night off.
really? Love and respect? Where was all that love and respect for the team that recently got dismantled and had as much a shot at the Wildcard as the Cardinals did in late August only a month earlier?
Hmmmm?
Am I Wuining your wittle fantasy story telling gig here?
If you need a night off from getting beaten up on then take one!
We won’t call you any names like Wimp behind your back!
And we won’t play those little 3 year old games you played when I went to work and you tried to say I ran away…./
Whose running now slappy?
Who can’t take the heat and needs a day off?
ROFLMAO!
You really are a vile human being. I own you at every turn and I know your butt hurts but you are too dumb to really get whats going on. This isn’t about us tonight, it’s about Carter and he is better than all of us.
I really just have no desire to engage with you, and have been staying away from you lately. You are a stupid, stupid man, and it’s boring at this point. We will never agree because even if I take acid I cannot warp my brain enough to understand why you think the way you do and there is just no point trying.
Ah back to the stuff you think works on Bayonne…Too bad for you I’m not Bayonne!
yes I’m vile!
To anyone who hates having thier fantasy shattered and facts torn to shreds!
Have a good nite sonny and get your rest because you obviously need it!
Just curious what your life is like that you are on such a tear picking fights with multiple people here tonight and most days. You live in Vegas, right? Can’t you just get a BJ for $20 and settle down with a drink? There is so much anger at everyone, do you just need a hug? You probably can get one of those for a $1 out there. There is so much to life then trying to tear strangers down on a message board. People laugh at you and think nothing but negativity towards you and you just keep right at it trying to prove something to people that don’t need to be proved anything. If there is anything I can do to make your life better let me know.
Not much more than happened to you when you decided to come here and do the same thing!
You started wth me remember I just responded to your crap!
Whatever dude. My wife feels sorry for me so I’m gonna take advantage of the situation. Have fun with your hand tonight.
Yep great comeback slappy!
Did you have to exert a lot of baseball knowledge to come up with that?
Or did you have that saved up for your next beat up- session on Bayonne and decided to break glass due to emergency?
ROLFMAO!
What does August have to do with anything? Can’t make any moves in August, at least not any that could significantly help your team because the team chasing you would block it. August is moot. On 7/1, the Cards led their division. On 7/15, the Mets were 8.5 GB and the Cards were 6 GB. On July 31, the Mets were 7.5 GB and the Cards were 5.5 GB. At no point during the active trading period were the Mets closer to the playoffs than the Cards were. Not to mention several other teams in front of them.
Not to mention the Cards had TWO chances to extend their season. We had one.
Same thing though right? Two’s the same as one huh?
What does it have to do with anything?
it has to do with the fact that being 10.5 games back in August is MUCH HARDER to overcome than being 7.5 games back in July dummy!
Do you really mean to say it’s easier to make up 10 games in August than it is to make up 7.5 in July?
Really?
If I said that your next reply would be I’m Crazy!
Should I go there like you would?
pray tell how did you get to that conclusion?
I can’t believe I have to explain to you how baseball works. I’ll explain it slowly. When the Cards were in a position to “dismantle” their team (in JULY, not AUGUST), they were considerably closer than the Mets to a playoff berth. When they slumped in August, they had already passed the point of no return. You can bet every red cent you own that if the Cards were 10 games out on July 31, Carpenter would have been a Yankee.
You keep talking about the cards dismantling opportunities…Why?
What does their DECISION have to do with OUR decision to DISMANTLE under a belief that we had no chance at 7.5 games and they proved was WRONG!
Thats the problem you have and why you can NEVER explain how baseball works to me becuase you have NO CLUE yourself how it works!
You thought we were OUT OF IT @ 7.5 games in july with all this GREAT knowledge of how baseball works you beat your chest with!
You were WRONG!
Cards showed that by making up 10.5 games with less than a month to go!
Doesn’t matter what they DECIDED it only matters what they DID, COULD BE DONE if only we did not retreat, Surrender when we were 7.5 games behind in July!
“You keep talking about the cards dismantling opportunities…Why?”
“Yeah the Cardinals wou;d say otherwise…they were even further back than we were a month later!”
Is there you start twisting and pretending you never said the things you said or that I did say things I never said?
Your the dummy twisting in the wind!
DID THE CARDS SAY THEY WERE OUT OF IT IN AUGUST?
DID THEY GIVE UP AND NOT TRY TO WIN?
Keep- twisting dude all your attempts at rewording what I say and trying to change the subject isn’t going to work!
I’m not Bayonne who you constantly bully on!
I FIGHT BACK and have FACTS to back them up-!
facts which made you look pretty foolish tonite!
Which is why your busy twisting as hard as you can!
Well, at least you agree Bayonne never has any facts, And I didn’t twist anything. I directly quoted you bring up the Cardinals. You always make it about them because they got lucky enough to be the beneficiaries of the second most epic collapse in NL history. They were lucky enough to be there because they has no cash flow issues.
yep a collapse you said wasn’t possible in this reality or dimension yet happened anyway!
Do you remember what I noted when I first brought it up?
About 2010?
About how in July we were ahead of the Phillies and they won the division due to a very SIMILAR late collapse by the very same braves?
No I’m sure you put that all out of your mind as quickly as possible because you didn’t want to hear the truth then just as you don’t want to hear it and acknowledge it now!
Even when Bayonne HAS the facts you play the same game!
And who would have been taking advantage of that Collapse if they hadn’t given up a month before the cards were so out of it no use in trying according to you Jessup, Donal? You know all the USUAL Bayonne Bullies around here?
truth is WE could have been the beneficiaries if we and sandy had not LISTENED to YOUR expert opinion on when your actually OUT OF THE RUNNING!
Lets not mention that the Cards had by far the best offense in the NL led by one of the greatest RH hitters of all time and a much better defensive team than the Mets and a much better baserunning team than the Mets and lets not mention the Cards much better bullpen than ours even with K-Rod and starting pitchers like Carpenter and Garcia who would be 1-2 starters in our rotation. A big time player in LF named Holliday,a borderline hall of famer in Berkman,the best catcher in the NL,an awesome bench which allowed them to trade a young up and coming CFer in Rasmus to get the pieces they needed to stay in the hunt.
What Metsie fails to undserstand is the Cards were a far superior team to us and were only slightly ahead of us midseason due to all their injuries and when they got everybody back late in the season they were able to go on a run as well as the Braves collapsing. We do not have the players that the Cardinals do,that’s what you fail to understand.Even without Wainwright they still have a superior team compared to ours.
Without Santana our only front end starter and with Ike out for the year and Bay continuing to suck and Pagan forgetting how to play and Reyes getting hurt like he always does and having the worst Catcher in the NL and the worst bullpen in the NL and Wright playing like shit either because of his back or serious decline and being one of the worst defensive teams in the NL and the worst baserunning team I’ve ever seen. Even if we kept Beltran and K-Rod we were a 500 team at best. That’s a fact. Something Metsie refuses to deal with.Facts.St Louis blew our doors off. If Holliday doesn’t miss 38 games and Berkman doesn’t miss 17 games and Pujols doesn’t miss 15 games and their closer doesn’t quit in may they probably win their division.
Injuries are only mentioned here when they’re used to make excuses for the Mets sucking but they’re not mentioned when talking about the Cardinals being nly a few games ahead of us. Sandy gave up on a chance to win 81 games.What a quitter!
“Lets not mention that the Cards had by far the best offense in the NL….”
Mention it all your saying is despite however better you think thier offense is they were still fell further behind the Braves in the wild card than we were when you Sandy gave up and implemented your revenge for missing the playoffs by ONE game!
Who cares where they were after the trade deadline? At that point, the die is cast and you are committed to whatever you were doing.
Why are you having so much trouble with this? At the last possible moment for them to really do anything about their situation, the Cardinals were in far better shape than the Mets.
The FACTS care!
You said 7.5 games out was GAME OVER NO CHANCE AT PLAYOFFS!
Well 10.5 games apparently wasn’t one month later when there are less games to make it up left!
But then again WHY do YOU of all people care?
Why let facts get in the way of the bullshit you promote as argument?
Fact: The trade deadline is July 31
Fact: At the trade deadline, the Cardinals were tied for first in their division and tied for second in the Wild Card at 5 games out.
Fact: The Mets and Cardinals were in very different situations WRT their payroll issues.
Fact: August 31st is irrelevant to the discussion because it was after the point in which any of the teams could have notably changed their rosters.
FACT Trade deadline has NOTHING to do with your chances to win the Wildcard or the playoffs!
Keep ignoring that it only makes you look like the desperate fool you are!
7.5 games out does not mean the SEASON IS OVER!
Cardinals proved that a month later!
Hate to break it to you Metsie but the high point winning percentage wise was on July 6th. 45-42. 3 games over .500 9.5 games back of Philly, 6.5 games back of the Braves with SF, AZ, St. L. and Mil ahead of us, Washington (Washington!?) half a game behind us and Cinn 1.5.
Not a particularly good time to turn our nose up at a top prospect or burden the 2012 team with a 17 M closer.
Facts are that this teams 2012 and future is far brighter than it would have been without those deals and considering every single transaction for the last twenty years has been to take something away from the future…………………………well, it’s about time.
Keep ignoig the splits and HOPE they go away or get taken off the stat web sites!
At the time we gave up we were playing .593 baseball!
If we continued at that clip we would have won the division by 10 games!
I know it’;s tough to swallow the fact that we gave up just as the team was peaking all because you all wanted to talk about draft picks for the next 5-10 years…
Too bad if we had kept what was winning at a .593 clip and added a starting pitcher to it you COULD have been talking about a WS win in the last 25 years!
45-42 = .517
I’m not even sure you even believe what you say. You can’t possibly.
well I will hit you with your own encyclopedia then and be done with your feeble attempts at denying facts!
April 11 16 118 131 .407
May 14 13 102 113 .519
June 16 11 149 112 .593
July 14 13 117 115 .519
August 10 16 106 136 .385
September 12 16 126 135 .429
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2011-schedule-scores.shtml
You done with your feeble attempts at calendar harping and point shavings?
Wait, did you just cherry pick one month? Really? Oh man. Ok, take out a notebook and a sharp pencil. Ready?
Know why the Mets played .593 ball in June? Because they played .407 ball in April. See, baseball is a long season. There are ebbs and flows, hot streaks and cold streaks, ups and downs. Ever hear the saying you’re never as bad as you look and never as good as you look? Of course. The Mets weren’t a .407 team. They started out cold and needed a hot streak to pull them back to where they belong. And very obviously, the Mets weren’t a .593 team. That’s just silly for you to even think about. And I think you know that.
What was the Mets record after July? After they had their cold streak and evened it out with their hot streak? Right around .500 I’d say, right? Give or take a game?
Any questions?
Keep- Runnin little doggie!
I said they were playing .519 and .593 baseball at the time YOU and Sandy gave up!
You know what I said because it isn’t the first time we been down this circle jerk with you!
Keep trying though you said we only a .517 team during that time and got caught!
Bad Bad Xtreem loses again because he keeps using the tactics he uses on Bayonne on someone who doesn’t take that kind of childish crap- and nails him with the facts!
You’re a sad, sad little man. Well, when did Sandy “give up?” When he traded K-Rod? When they were 46-45 (.505)? When he traded Beltran when they were 53-51 (.510)?
You can’t cherry pick one month, or even two months and decide that’s the team they have. That’s why they play six months. This is Baseball 101. That’s it for me. You can have the last word and tell yourself you “won.”
Yep right about then!
Got anything to say regarding that?
Anything that disputes being 7.5 games back in July does not mean your season is over?
Got anything at all or would you rather Bayonne said this so you could run to the Bully act to win?
And I’m the SAD SAD one here!
Doesn’t work on me X!
Keep that in your hat for your next convo with Bayonne!
That childish game don’t work on me!
Bring facts or bring your consession but trying to make me out as a nut for HAVING facts isn’t going to work!
You got caught up in your own bullshit!
You said we were done and the cards proved how STUPID it was to think that!
Cleveland went for it. Traded one of the best pitching prospects in the game for Ubaldo. How’d that help them? It didn’t. By upgrading they got worse. Not just in 2011 but for the future as well.
Tell me Metsie when was the last time we ever made a move that took a tiny bit from the present and gave something toward the future?
Considering all the moves over the last two decades have been exclusively about right now you would have to think we would have been in the post season more than just 3 times in 23 years wouldn’t you?
How do you know Ubaldo isn’t a better player than that prospect?
DO you have any MLB stats to compare to Ubaldo from this IF, MAYBE, MIGHT BE they gave up?
NO!
All you have is might be could be IF everything works out!
5.10 ERA with Cleveland after a 4.68 first half with Colorado.
Tell me who would command a greater return in a trade right now? Pomerenz or Jimenez?
Pittsburgh played .593 ball one month, KC played .600 ball one month and Cleveland played .692 ball one month. Nats played .630 ball over two different months. Marlins played .630 and .640 ball in two months.
All of these teams first round picks are protected. What does that tell you?
Yep and they didn’t trade away all their best players either did they?
But what does it tell you?
That they were close? That they had the horses or that they needed a few?
Most teams have a good month or two, hell you know that already.
it tells me a team built FAR WORSE with ZERO ALL STARS has the good sense to not give up as quickly as Sandy did!
Pirates could have won that division if they had went AWAY from what all of you propose, brought in some help to take them the rest of the way!
They didn’t but they didn’t have a sell off either!
We did!
And in 23 years when you wonder why we still have not ever built a winner you can safely answer: “Because when we had a chance to win we GAVE UP!”
Scrapped a team who was capable of winning at a .593 clip and could take the division if they didn’t have one bad start and then have a firesale in July!
And for your info I don’t EVER believe a word YOU say because time and time again I have showed you to skew the facts whenever it suits you!
Should I badger you like you Badger bayonne over misreading a stat or has the point been taken and conceeded and we move along?
No changing the subject among what people say and facts are what you do to try to win a debate when you’re getting your lunch fed to you.593 baseball was part of the subject and you’re lost in space enough to think they would continue to play 593 ball when they’ve only done it twice over the last 24 years.
BLAH Blah Blah….
I haven’t changed the subject all I did was keep YOU on it!
I’m not the one who ran away from his desire to dismantle a team one win away from the playoffs!
I’m not the one who tried to deny they played .593 baseball until the closer and RBI leader got traded!
It’s all you!
But whine all you want, your not fooling anyone!
I’m here fool I’m not running anywhere.I wanted to dismantle a team that couldn’t hold a big lead against inferior teams. They proved they couldn’t handle the pressure of a pennant race. Face facts.I’ll be here all day,you keep running n circles though.I hope you recorded the games over the last 3 years, this way you can continue to watch 140 million dollar team full of star power play sub 500 baseball. They did have a 593 month though,so get a bottle Perignon ready. Hey they won 5 in a row. That’s 1000 baseball for nearly a week.Too bad they traded Beltran and K-Rod we may have played 1000 baseball and caught the Braves.
yep in favor of a team that can’t even GET a lead against the same competition!
You prefer to suck MISERABLY instead of just one games worth!
X you can change the subject all you want you LOST the battle of
ARE WE OUT OF IT IN JULY!
Cause much more than 7.5 games were made up in LESS time than we had!
Come to grips with that!
The Mets were 52-50 when Beltran was traded. You need to come to terms with that.
The Mets have played 593 baseball 2 times since 1988. 2006 and 1999. 2011 team wasn’t in the same stratosphere as the 2006 or 1999 teams. 593 was never happening. We never got more than 5 games over 500.That was with Beltran and K-Rod. That must’ve been one helluva dream.
Blah Blah Blah…more lets change the subject and maybe people won’t notice the point your trying to run away from!
This is one of the big problems with constantly importing a free agent every year and raising the fans hopes only to be out of it come July as often as not.
That’s been the plan for 21 years now and during that 21 year period we’ve finished in 4th or 5th place (or even worse) 10 of those times. That’s abysmal. How can a team with the largest payroll in the entire League wind up in 4th or 5th place as often as they do 2nd or 3rd in their own Division?
It would really be difficult to match those results even if that’s what you were trying to do.
We have gotten some tremendous years from the big money guys but we’ve gotten just as many, if not more lost seasons from them as well.
One thing we’ve specialized in through the last two decades is getting very weak production from position player after position player. I know some people don’t like WAR as a stat. I don’t know enough about it to have an informed opinion on it but there was a study done which counted all position players who had at least 100 AB’s in a season and we led, by FAR AND AWAY in receiving 0.0 – 0.9 WAR. out of our position players for the last decade.
48% to be exact. 48% of our position players over an entire decade were only marginally better than what an average AAA minor leaguer could be reasonably expected to produce. Add in the 10% that were worse than what the average AAA player could be expected to produce and what do you have? Almost 60% of our position players over an entire decade gave us minor league production. 60%! And that’s only position players. It’s not like we’ve been making up for it on the other end.
That constant cycle of big expectations followed by big disappointment caused to a large extent by 60% of our everyday players playing like minor leaguers is what has led the charge to 10K per game paid attendance.
Fix that and you fix everything else too.
Which year from 2006-2008 were we out of it in July as you suggest?
We were out of it in 2009 yes…why? Which big name did we sign that year? Did we lose money that year?
Were we out of it in July 2010? Who won the dicision that year and who was ahead of them on July 15th? Yes we lost money that year! But not because we were out of it in July!
Even without Beltran!
Nice to say one thing happened to make a case the only stumbling block here is it NEVER happened as you suggest!
And the Yankees have done what you propose and never lose a penny despite spending 60-80 mil more than we have in any given year!
I didn’t mention money. What does that have to do with the discussion?
I’m talking about on field production. What we’ve actually gotten out of players we’ve developed or brought in here over a decade. Not a cherry picked 3 year period and as bad as our position playing production has been this past decade it’s probably worse going back two decades under the same monkeyball philosophy.
60% of our hitters who had at least 100 AB’s either had a WAR of 0.1 – 0.9 or a negative WAR.
60 ******* percent. And I’m willing to bet the pitchers weren’t much better.
Excuse e you seemed to claim buying Free Agents was a waste if your out of it in July and all I pointed out was that did NOT apply to us as we were IN IT all through July, August and September!
On Field production? Well if your within one game of making the playoffs you had ON FIELD PRODUCTION!
So stop trying to keep moving the timelines as your timelines get debunked and tell where anything you have said in this particular comment thread has ANYTHING to do with reality since all your points made are FALSE!
They were competitive not just in July but throught those three seasons!
Isn’t that what you say you wanted? If so why are you constantly complaining about getting what you wanted or think your going to get by only drafting players! Because it will take you 20 years to get what you want that way!
And your a lot further from being competitive now than you were even last year!
My mistake.
With the highest payroll (by far) in the entire NL we went to the playoffs 3 times in 23 years and almost went to the playoffs 3 more times.
Forget about those other 17 years of monkeyball, they don’t count.
I stand corrected. We have been the team of the last quarter century.
Next rounds on me.
Yep almost as often as those smart building (according to you) phillies who didn’t start doing the same thing until they started BUYING players!
Started buying players after they built their core through their system. Philly fans were complaning in 2006 after Pat Gillick traded Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle(salary dumps) when they were only 8 games behind the Mets.I don’t hear Philly fans whining about that anymore. That’s called being smart when evaluating your team and doing what you thin is right,which is what Alderson did by trading Beltran and K-Rod.One trade got us our top prospect,the other got us out from an option that would’ve mde the offseson worse than it was. And that’s saying something.
Outstanding point Fonzie.
Gillick waved the white flag and the Phillies got better!
Works both ways, jist ask the Knicks.
tag — The Phillies got better but no white flag was raised. He made shrewd trades and core players matured. Gillick is really a talented executive.
Yep and why did they buy after having that core you guys all want?
Because it WASN’T ENOUGH!
The Phillies bought because that’s what you do AFTER you see what you have,
For example why didn’t we go after Chone Figgins or Adam Dunn? Cause we had a 3B and a 1B.
You can never say ahead of time which guys(s) are going to make it and how much their going to contribute. All you can do is collect as many highly talented prospects as possible, develop them the best you possibly can meld them into a team. Then you go out and intelligently add where you haven’t developed or upgrade where you can reasonably do so.
If you buy just to get to 85 wins and subtract from your ability to follow those guys up by giving away so many prospects and high draft choices that window to win gets incredibly difficult to fit through.
Most free agents are available at 31 or 32 years old and have just made their talent pay off for life. They don’t really have anything to prove and no future contract to play for. Not that their flat out dogging it for the most part but just that their isn’t that sense of urgency coursing through the clubhouse for everyone to feed on. It’s a different vibe, one more like Club Met. How and why do you think that name got coined?
Add in the older player being more injury prone, PED testing and in a more comfortable position financially and a large part of the clubhouse being in the same comfort level and that’s what you get. Three listless months of baseball resulting in a near miss at the end.
Too many old dogs on the lawn without enough ooomph in ‘em to go chase the rabbit but add an old dog to a group of young pups and the old dog won’t be lying around watching them have all the fun.
They bought becuase they were ready to win. Utley,Howard,Rollins,Myers,Hamels,Madson all developed through the farm. One day you’ll see the facts,if you open your eyes. Did I mention they had the resources to go out and buy players after the won the WS.How many have they won since they bought players to add to that homegrown nucleos.
OHHHHHHHHHH! So you admit we are NOT READY to win?
Pray tell then why all this Everything is Great and going in the RIGHT DIRECTION crap we are forced to contend with on a daily basis?
When will we be ready to win?
And why aren’t we trying to get there sooner rather than later?
We’re going in the direction right now that leads to winning rather than trying to cut corners, failing and crashing yet again.
OH so we have to lose MORE games in order to win more?
Really? Thats logical to you?
I already told you HOW that works and you vociferously denied it!
Are you changing your position now?
The only way LOSING MORE can add to WINNING MORE is if you SUCK for a long enough time to pick at the top of every round in the draft and get the top talent in every round over the course of the losing, Develop them properly and hope that you drafted all allstars!
You said you don’t have to scuk to do that so why is it important to lose more games now to start the path of getting better?
Of course we’re not ready to win now. How dumb can you be. You make bayonne look like Branch Rickey. They’re rebuilding which takes time like you admitted on the thread when JoeD posted the announcement of Sandy Alderson as GM. So now guys like Donal,Extreem,Jessep who you can’t stand say what you said when he was hired,you change your opinion just because of who said it.If they said Sandy sucks you would be saying the opposite.
You can’t be dumb enough to think that you don’t take steps back when you’re rebuilding.You can’t be dumb enough to think you get better rebuilding with free agents.You can’t be dumb enough to think you can trade your way out of this mess with a middle of the pack farm system.
So lets hear your rebuilding plan since you think your way is so much better than a real GM. Lets hear your plan. C’mon big shot,lets hear or are you gonna run away and make stuff up to make you feel smarter than everybody else. Show some guts.Explain the best way to rebuild and take into consideration the finances which you seem to think doesn’t exist.
Right, the Phillies did not get worse to get better when they dumped Abreu?
LOL you really are a hoot!
The guy who says we are better with a team losing by 20 games than we are with a team who lost by one called ME dumb!
If losing by one game made you so mad why doesn’t loosing by 20 increase the anger?
It sure has increased you madness factor…your as mad as a hatter making that argument!
I read last month that right after the Marlins signed Reyes the Marlins sold more season tickets than their last three seasons combined in the 30 days after he became a Marlin.
but did they break 1,000 yet?
i will err on the side of cauthion and say Beurle had a little to do with that as well! LOL
But it does sort of prove what I have been saying!
They haven’t won a single game yet but one (two) signing made people believe they COULD and that it was worth buying tickets to see happen!
Hey Metsie, I never saw Buehrle as the kind of a player fans would pay to see.
I think the increase also has a lot to do with the new ballpark.
Anyway, there was actually a news item from Reyes’ golf outing I just posted in one of my Fair or Foul features.
Well maybeyou and me but the folks in Florida who have seen too many FA periods go like ours might…
Truth is so I gave a flippant and incomplete answer as they got Bell as well didn’t they?
I agree Reyes probably was the majority of the draw but in general it was the aggressive Off Season they had that has as much to do with it as any name we could mention!
They are also much closer to the metropolitan area than they were before so that also is at play here.
“They haven’t won a single game yet but one (two) signing made people believe they COULD and that it was worth buying tickets to see happen!”
JUST LIKE WHEN THE RANGERS SIGNED AROD! WOOOOOOOO! How did that work out once they started playing?
Yep attendance went up the er the Ranger got Arod!
Thank you for making my point!
Keep on cackling like a fool as I’m enjoying it immensely!
Are you serious with this? You know how much the Rangers attendance spiked in 2001? Less than 250,000. A-Rod got all of a quarter million people to the games. Huge spike, right? By the way, how much do you think they lost in attendance in 2002 after they played with A-Rod and still sucked? Did you guess nearly half a mil? Then you’re right. They lost TWICE AS MUCH in attendance the year after A-Rod signed than they gained the year before. Also, they lost even more attendance going into the 2003 season. Know what happened to attendance in 2004, after he was traded away? Attendance rose around 400,000. More than it rose after the signed him. Explain that. I dare you.
It did go up though didn’t it?
PROVES my point!
Sign a good player and attendance goes up!
Why not do some math for yourself….
250,000 times whatever the average ticket holder spends per game!
About $100 bucks!
meaning 25 Mil made off that signing!
He didn’t get paid 25 Mil!
Thank you for agreeing with me that sign a big name and attendance goes up before the first game is played let alone won!
Take off the blinders. Stop being shortsighted. What happened after the ink dried. They were still terrible, couldn’t afford any other players, and attendance dropped significantly. So if the Mets signed Reyes and they were able to snag 125,000 more tickets (don’t even pretend Reyes is even half as good as A-Rod was then), what happens? They still stink, clearly can’t afford anything else and are far worse off than they were before.
Also, your math is biased. The average ticket price in 2011 for the Rangers (after a WS appearance) was $18.45. What could it have been ten years ago? $13 maybe? So a person spends $50 to go to a game, which means they got $12.5 mil out of ticket sales, which doesn’t even cover his salary in the year attendance spiked. It all makes sense now, doesn’t it.
What happened when the ink dried? The sold 250K more tickets thats what happened!
You want to talk about what happened the year after that tell me who they signed after that and I’ll tell you what happened!
and what happened when it became apparent that they weren’t winning with their “star” free agent?
And that is what you don’t get. It is not about having a lot of sales for one April. It is about selling tickets for several regular seasons and hopefully a few Octobers.
K Maxx — Season sales went up all right. But it was because they signed Carlos Zambrano. lol