9
2012
MMO Fair or Foul: Which Teams Got Better In The NL East
An article by 
This edition of Fair or Foul features Matt Cerrone of MetsBlog who looks at the NL East and doesn’t buy into the “every other team got better except the Mets” argument. See what you think?
The Braves and Phillies did very little to improve their teams, as well. They either traded guys away, signed fill-in role players or re-signed their own guys. The Mets scored more runs than other team in the NL East last year, in a year when many guys struggled, so it can be argued that no major upgrades were needed to the lineup (though, obviously, to replace Jose Reyes, guys like Jason Bay and David Wright will need to get their acts together, and Ike Davis and Daniel Murphy will need to keep hitting and stay healthy). I still think the Mets needed to do more to improve the rotation.
Yes, the Nationals added Edwin Jackson, Brad Lidge and Rick Ankiel, among others, but it’s not like they succeeded in snagging Prince Fielder or CJ Wilson. (Update: As ESPN New York’s Adam Rubin pointed out on Twitter, the Nationals also added Gio Gonzalez, which is a significant acquisition). Still, much of Washington’s potential is in their young players coming up and staying healthy and from guys already on the roster.
And so, I just can’t buy the misleading talking point that every other team got better and the Mets did nothing. I like the additions the Mets made to the bullpen, which are on par with additions made by the Nationals, both of which are more than what the Phillies and Braves did to their rosters. The Marlins clearly went above and beyond every one else, spending close to $50 million more dollars on this year’s roster adding Heath Bell, Mark Buehrle and Jose Reyes, among others. They should be better, no doubt about it.
Look, I get what he’s trying to say and do here, but the Mets lost one of the top 20 players in the game in Jose Reyes this offseason. None of the other teams lost what the Mets did, and compounding that is that they did nothing to replace that loss. Nothing. They just absorbed it – the money and the production value.
They kept the rotation the same as last season – not even adding any quality depth. What happens if we lose Dickey, God forbid, to the DL? Or Niese? Who you gonna call?
They swapped some names in the bullpen, but didn’t sign a bona fide closer – only two relievers who failed as closers in the past. Their strategy in the bullpen all hinges on hope and Isringhausen won’t be around to save them this time.
The only other additions were bench players like Cedeno and Quintanilla. Hairston, Turner and Nickeas will be back. Strike up the band?
You can sugarcoat this all you want, but make no mistake the Mets are considerably worse than last year at this time, and while other teams made net gains, the Mets are certainly at a net loss.
I remember Matt used to frequently say that hope is not a strategy, and I’ve embraced that as well… But did he just change his tune?
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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Of course he will not bash the mets.. he likes his little appearnaces on sny, now. had this been a true mets fan i am sure the answer would’ve been different..
if you ask me i’d say this team is the worst team in the NL east and possibly one of the worst in the NL.. the concern is hope in other team finances and hoping and praying they don’t do well so we can feel better about ourselves, the phillies improved their closer and got chad qualls who can help, got the same SP which is the best in the NL, the braves can win 80 games, that still is better than what the mets will do even with them doing nothing, the marlins are 4 times better than the mets, and even the nationals not getting fielder are better than the mets, so where does that leave us? last place.. so how are we not as bad as some think? seriously, this article of fair or foul is completely foul. be objective and keep it real.
‘…likes his little appearances on SNY’……maybe. I really wouldn’t know. Metsblog is part of SNY which is how this guy makes his living.
But to accuse him of not being a true fan? Come on……
This guy was a Met fan long before he started that blog in college. That’s the reason he started it. To say he’s not a true fan is just completely false.
You may not like his blog. You may not like the way he runs his blog. You make not like his opinions. But I don’t think you can fault the guy for his NY Mets passion.
when did the blog becamo part of sny?? thank you, he was at first objecitve, even a critic of some sort, as soon as he felt he had a little power his jerky side started to come up, then as soon as he made an appearance on tv, he never has trashed the mets on any way, i don’t like the blog because it became a lovefest of the mets, and if anyone had anything negative about the mets they’d be banned in a matter of seconds.. this is the best mets blog there is out there..
Who do you think is paying Cerrone’s salary?
Read the disclaimer at the bottom of his blog:
Owned and operated by SportsNet New York, part of the SNY Blog Network Information
And I said many do not agree with his opinion and his style of writing. All I’m saying is you can’t accuse the guy of not being a fan.
ONCE AGAIN… when the blog started i think it was 2006, he wasn’t getting paid, the site is NOW owned by SNY, NOW, not then when the blog was actually good.. now it’s nothing but a lovefest but it’s because he’s getting some cash, therefore he needs to control the hatred for the team, i don’t even past by that blog anymore, i thank JOE D for this site, been a part of it since 2008 and hopefully for years to come.. we should all be gratefull and donate even more than we have to keep this site goin, it’s the best mets blog out there and it’s not even close.. even with articles about urinals this site is the BOMB!!!
And it was good to see Howard Megdal stomp on one guy for his lying, spinning, taking-out-of-context and downright deceitful writing, and the other guy for his misinterpreting what he was saying. The 2 you would expect.
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with Megdal but he made his point quite clear while the other 2 were just fans with an agenda and Howard made them look exactly just like that.
I never said when he started his blog he was getting paid. I know he was not. He’s stated many times how it came to be, which was a project in college.
Just going in circles. The only point I was making was accusing him of not being a true fan is false.
That’s all.
Matt Cerrone has changed a LOT over the last year and I’ve said it to him and Joe you’ve seen me talk to him about it on Twitter. It’s as if he forgot everything he ever knew about baseball in favor of following a new leadership. It’s baffling to see.
The Mets did horrible this year while other teams got good players than can help for prices the Mets could have afforded. And the biggest real trade Sandy has made since cursing this team with his presence is the Ramirez for Pagan trade. I don’t count salary dumps for unproven minor leaguers.
I thought Sandy was supposed to make the market come to him? I thought sabermetrics and advanced statistics were supposed to help the Mets find “value”?
Clearly those ideals are not working and that’s what was supposed to be Sandy’s strengths. If he made good moves and the Mets reaped those rewards the Stat Geeks and Saber Hounds would have FLOODED This site with “I told you so’s” Make no mistake about that. We never would have heard the end of it how sabermetrics had improved the Mets.
Well those principles were put in place and they are failing miserably so far in New York. Looking at all the players signing with other teams for good prices that the Mets could have afforded over the last 2 seasons and by making really only one trade it is safe to say that Sandy Alderson is just not a good General Manager at all.
what if Halladay, Lee and Hamels get hurt? Then that Phils will suck too.
The premise though is sound. Some people made it sound as if all the other teams added multiple superstars, and it is not true. The top teams (phils and braves) stayed flat (and the phils lost Howard for some period), the Nats added 1 good SP and a couple of MiL invite types (ankiel and Lidge). Only the Marlins added a notable position player, and a nice mid-rotation SP.
so if anything, you could say the middle got more bunched up?
And the Mets have improved in at least 1 area since year end, since getting Davis back should be a huge addition.
Scoring runs should not be a problem though this year. How competitive they can stay will come doen to whether the SP can be servicable.
and just because the Mets scored runs last year means you don’t address that situation? Really? News to me. And what if Dickey, Niese, & Pelfrey get hurt? Or Gee, Dickey, & Santana is out for the year?
But the Mets brass decided that getting SP would not be something they would do this year.
You should be mad at that instead of cuddling next to your Sandy blow up doll.
..should read but SP was something that wasn’t addressed this offseason
Again, you missed the point.
Yes, the SP is thin. But the projected lineup should be able to score runs. And not just based on last year, that is looking at the team for this year.
and no, I don’t have a Sandy doll. I don’t agree with everything he did. And I would have done different moves in some cases. But at least I live in reality.
Fair enough, at least you’re thinking on your own and I hadn’t noticed that before.
At least now i can tell the difference between you and srt so I take back my Sandy doll comment to you. At least you’re thinking on your own and coming up with your own ideas unlike the other one who is still on the “we’re broke” excuse so therefore these were the ONLY possible moves.
I see improvement from any!
For someone who complete bores you, Bayonne you certainly spend a lot of time bringing my name up and responding to my comments.
Do I get a pass in your baseball world if I claim I don’t have a Sandy doll either?
That is my biggest knock on Sandy this offseason. Not addressing the starting rotation. Even more so than letting Reyes walk. Bad combo of no $$$ to spend and the Marlins needing to make a huge splash this offseason with the new stadium and all that. Regardless, the SP for the Mets cannot afford to have injuries to the rotation, and that is taking into consideration Santana is actually going to be healthy. They are certainly going to need to score some runs and the new BP is going to be squeezed for every ounce of the money the Mets spent for it.
ditto. I was surprised to see no more SPs brought in. So, I still expect to see someone(s) added, either just before ST (one of the remaining names getting desperate) or just before the seaosn starts (when teams have to pare down).
But no way they can be counting on Johan to be ready, and the depth at 6/7/8 just isn’t pretty.
‘That is my biggest knock on Sandy this offseason. Not addressing the starting rotation.’
Couldn’t agree more. Beyond mediocre right now (Santana withstanding), it’s beyond thin.
Also Joe, you really think that Jose is a top 20 player in the game? especially considering he has had 1 good 1/2 season out of the last 3?
He could be, yes.
well, anyone could be Including Wright, who has been in the past. He was presenting it as he is.
Actually, after I posted this I started reading my fellow bloggers posts and came across Craig’s post on Wright. In it MLB ranked Reyes #17 overall from a fantasy perspective but still it’s based on production. So I’m not the only one who sees him that high.
Did that list even include pitchers? just asking since the top 10 IIRC did not have any.
And fantasy rankings always have to be taken with a grain of salt, since fantasy over wheighs steals usually.
And of course, like you said, that is based on projections. I was just thinking anecdotally (make a quick list of the top 20 players and see who you get).
We all hope right?? I think that’s part of what makes sports fun.We hope to see our teams reach our best case scenario dreams. But there always comes a point, when hope can turn to absurd. To me, hope is rooting for the Mets this season, and praying that every best case scenario comes true. Technically (maybe at that) not all the other NL East teams indeed got better.
The Phillies might be without Howard to start the year, are a year older, have been blessedly healthy in the rotation, and are due for some kind of decline soon. So while you can say they didn’t technically get better, it doesn’t matter because they are still better.
The Braves didn’t do much this offseason, but…they unloaded Derek Lowe (that is HUGE in my book), and have quite possibly the best young pitching in all of baseball. Their bullpen if managed better could be the baseball’s best, and their lineup might actually upgrade with improvements from their young players Heyward and Freeman. SO yes, they might not have technically gotten better on paper, but they have way better pitching and a lineup that at least, should be on par with the Mets offensively (Catcher they dominate, 1B is a push because of Ike’s injury, 2B they win, SS is a push, 3B we win, LF is a push but Prado might win, CF they win, RF they win cause most everyone takes hey ward over Duda).
The Marlins got better, there’s no sugar coating needed. Theey improved their rotation by adding a hopefully healthy Josh Johnson and Carlos Zambrano to be their #5. Bell is declining but stabilizes their bullpen (no more running out Steve Cishek for saves), and adding Reyes to that lineup will improve everyone. People complain about Reyes only playing 130 games, but forget in 130 games he earns his value and is much better than most SS in the league (Reyes at 130, and replacement level SS for 32 is still better than just about any SS in the league).
The Nationals got better,a nd they won 8 games last year. I love how much they gave up for Gio because I don’t think he’s an ace, and I like it when division rivals empty their farm systems. But Gio and Edwin Jackson massively upgrade this rotation. They’re not aces, but they’ll give you innings, can get strikeouts, will drive you crazy but keep your team in the game.The bullpen is also solid, and the lineup will improve with healthy Zimmerman and even LaRoche.
I’ve embraced 5th place as our reality in 2012. This will make 4th place and even matching last year’s 77 wins a dream season for me. That’s where my hope is. Absurdity is saying we’re on par with these either teams. While every team needs things to break right to have a great season, we need it much more than others in the division.
*** nationals won 80 games. my typo.
** also should read “these other teams..” Sheesh Hank.
Thank goodness the Astros are in the National league so that we are not the total pits!
If you think this team is finishing anywhere other than LAST place, you need to see a doctor.
I was kind of hoping we could just forfeit this year.
Gonna be plenty of good seats in Shea 2 come mid May!
If you think the Mets are bad, truly look at the roster for the Astros. You’ll start feeling good about the Mets again in about 3 to 4 seconds.
I’ve never been a big fan of Mets Blog, I don’t hate it like some, but I prefer blogs that give quality, not quantity…I also prefer to read stories and posts that make you think and even at times challenge what you think. I also like talking with people who know about ball and are passionate about it. Even though there seems to be a on going battle between the pro-Sandy-Seber fans and those who see that Sandy isn’t doing anything to improve the team and is just cutting costs. I think both sides are correct on many points, (sadly it turns into a Jr. High argument) even if I don’t see eye to eye, having civil conversations/disagreements is enjoyable.
I don’t get any of that from Mets blog, I don’t even get a good read from the “stories” they post. Sure, they give out plenty of good links to other sites and they have plenty of good video from SNY, but there’s no real quality over there.
Maybe because, while I’m pretty optimistic, I’m also a realist and the level of unrealistic optimism and praise and protection of anything the Mets do is getting out of hand. How can you have a true discussion if you’re just blindly saying and skewing everything positive. Cerrone make Fox and MSNBC look like non-biased reporters.
USFM, you’re in the best mets blog there is… make no mistake about that, and to be honest, this blog was even better before some of the good writers left, but now thanks to pete and others we’re back to being better than say a year ago when the topic was brad eamus and his OBP.. and about your comment on cerrone make Fox and MSNBC look like non-biased reporters”, thing is, he wasn’t like that before, he was objective and more or less a critic,. as soon as he made an app on tv, forget it… i don’t think he’s ever trahsed the mets on any way possible..
That’s why this site rocks. You can actually SEE the points of view and the debates while everything gets lost on MetsBlog and soon all you’re reading is a bunch of one sentence non-responses – they type of nonsense a couple of the newbies bring here.
So what if you witness the occasional shouting match or head rammed into the ringpost, or chair shot drawing blood. Who wants to see a scientific match all the time? That’s too vaniilla or too boring. OR you can go to AA where all other points of views are banished.
That’s why this site is the best and I believe is growing, regardless of the occasional foreign object being used. Just hide it in your trunks, raise your hands as the ref checks you out, and you’re good to go
If you look at the players we started with going into the 2011 season compared with the players we’ve got going into the 2012 season there isn’t any doubt on paper we lost some good players and didn’t get back/acquire the same talent.
There’s a reason we’re projected to finish last. What all these changes will translate to we’ll just have to see.
I hate trying to judge the off season, what happens on the field is what matters, not what people conceive is good in the Winter.
The Braves didn’t “add” too much, but they are young and should be in the position to improve…or they could all easily regress.
The Phils made of what I call, Lateral moves…it’s hard to get better being as stacked as they are. I still think that the health of the right side of the infield is a big question for them and you’d expect their are to become a issue. Overall, they are still the best team in the division, even if they didn’t necessarily “improve” on paper.
The Nats did some nice moves and should be getting better with maturity…but they didn’t blow anyone out with their great additions.
The Marlins “Won” the off season, but these are very risky high dollar moves, all could very easily blow up in there faces.
The Mets have only gotten worse. I’d take the pen for start of last year over the pen of this year, but it’s close. We all know how unstable relievers are. The rotation isn’t any better and there isn’t any real hope that it’ll improve anytime soon (and I’m a big Neise and RAD guy and I have hopes for Gee). The Lineup got worse…we lost the two best hitters we had, Murphy and Ike are coming off injuries, Duda and Tejada are unproven and Wright and Bay have a lot to do to be who they should be vs who’ve they’ve been.
While the rest of the division isn’t that much better than last year, the Mets expanded the gap by getting worse. I think the Mets are an NL average team playing in a very strong division…but this is still the off season, give out grades because it’s what we do because there is nothing else to do, but it’s winning in the summer time that really matters.
You make good points Joe. Saying the Mets are worse when considering the loss of Reyes, KRod and Beltran for the 2012 season is not a stretch by a longshot. My concern is the depth on the team. Like you said what if Dickey gets hurt? I’ll add to that what if Torres gets hurt or what if Thole gets hurt? Positions that can still be addressed and I expect they will but until they are they remain a point of concern for me.
Still with all that said call me naive if you wish but I see the potential of what a full season from Davis & Duda can do (Can these 2 be the Mets version of the bash bros?) in this lineup. I can’t help but think Wright will gets back to playing good ball the way many expect him to and Jason Bay for that matter.
Definite concerns with this rotation not much I can say there except that I look to Dickey to keep doing what he’s done and Niese to continue to improve if he’s the real deal. Pelfrey I expect more of the same inconsistent pitching he has given the team and I have no idea what to expect from Gee. Santana I try not to even consider. I’ll just react when he actually pitches in a regular season game.
I like the pen makeup and it’s potential even with no KRod. the bench now that is a concern.
Still all in all without yet to see one Spring Training game I’m not feeling too down when I think of what can be good on this team but yes you would be correct when you say “the Mets are considerably worse than last year at this time” On paper for now at least.
Matt is looking at this team with blinders on. What good is an improved bullpen when you have starters who will struggle to get out of the 5th inning? His argument about the Nats being young is ridiculous when you consider the quality of young players that team has plus the additions in the rotation.
The Braves have plenty of young arms on the come and were a quality team, they were close last year, plus you have to anticipate a guy like Heyward learning and growing from his struggles’.
The Phillies have stud starting pitching. End of story. Howard or not, playing in Citizen they will score runs…
The Marlins WILL be better, whether we all like that or not, an inspired, healthy Reyes, Johnson and Buerle with Ozzie Guillen at the helm will keep them in the hunt.
The Mets have ‘sophomore jinx’ candidates in Duda and Gee, A rotation that has an ace who may or may not pitch or be effective, and an inconsistant Pelfrey, Niese, who just can’t stay healthy long enough to throw 200 innings. The only thing good and solid in our rotation is RA Dickey (Hey RA can you throw that old knuckler every other day?) Who’s Matt kidding? I know we all hope and pray things are different, we say the right things…games are played on the field not paper, etc. but it sure looks bleak…it’s okay though, because at least we have some young talent on the rise…2014 sounds a long way off….
Yes we scored a lot of runs last year…
That was before we got rid of those 162 RS and 110 RBI in Reyes and Beltran!
Consider this, we scored 718 Runs last year and were 12th in the leage in RS!
Minus those 162 we would have been tied with Seattle at 556 and 30th in the league!
If we lose just HALF of those runs we jump to 22nd!
Nah this team isn’t worse than last year……I Must be Insane, Unreasonable or retarded to think that! LOL
12th in the league? We scored the 6th most runs in the NL not 12th.Most runs in the NL East.
Duda actually outproduced Beltran after the trade.
Metsie slipped in the AL (and their DH’s) to come up with that 12th and then labeled it the League instead of the Majors.
Duda/Beltran from the batters box should be similar. Davis better than Murphy, Murphy better than Turner/Tejada, Wright better than last year, Torres similar to Pagan’s 2011, Bay the same. Thole/Nickeas slightly better than thole/Paulino and Tejada a significant downgrade at SS.
Defense will probably be the Majors bottom 5. Pen a run better, rotation the same.
75 wins is a fair bet depending on who Rey Ramirez gets his hands on.
If you prefer to only compare them to the rest of the NL to make thier RS ranking seem better then take away those 162 RS from that 6th you want to cling to and tell us all where they wind up?
Or would you prefer I just do that for you in hopes you guys can find some other SEMANTICAL anomoly to exploit to make a point made sound CRAZY when you know full welll what was said is valid just an inconvenient truth that doesn’t fly with the optimistic agenda that seems quite important to some posters mental stability!
More semantical Bullshit from the Sandy Lovers!
The League I was referring to was the “MAJOR” LEAGUE!!!!!!!!
But any port in a storm to say someone is wrong right?
Just like because we didn’t save any money on Beltran ion 2011 it isn’t a Salary dump in 2012 right?
more misinformation from Metsie because he has no clue what he’s talking about. I love it.
and by the way….
“Minus those 162 we would have been tied with Seattle at 556 and 30th in the league!”
oh, so Reyes and Beltran’s replacements would have scored 0 runs?
I really just don’t think you ever think before you type. or maybe you really do think, which is sad.
If yo have noticed I also noted that if their replacements score at least HALF that production we would be 22nd didn’t I?
Guess you didn’t make it that far before you had to run and CREAM ON for Sandy!
Disgusting analogy.
The irony is that the Mets got worse ‘on paper’ versus the Marline and Nationals. Th Phillies and Braves remain 2 heads better than us, period. BUT we had a few guys with sub-par / incomplete years: Wright / Bay subpar; Ike / Murph incomplete…that’s 50% of the position lineup. Thole also should improve both offensively and defensively. THEN, of course, we lost Reyes.
And the rotation scares me, but the pen is better. There i disagree with Joe. All that said, this team is very difficult to predict. i do not share the doomsayers on this Site that tout a 60 / 100 kind of year. But frankly, it COULD be that bad. OR it could be as high as 90 wins…IF the starters hold up, including Pelfrey having a comeback year AND Wright / Bay produce like their salaries would imply they should, and Ike and Murph, are healthy all year, and continue to pound the ball.
There ya go: Play ball.
We won’t be as bad as Steve Phillips last year (66-95) when we were suppossedly “going for it.” We won’t be as stupid as were the following year when we traded away our best prospect so at least we have that going for us.
The simple fact is we’ve had very little talent flow into the system and make it up here in the last 10 years mostly due to Phillps busting on 15 out of 17 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks and giving away 6 more most of them for guys we couldn’t even give away. Add in all the trades from the farm and this is what you wind up.