The Mets are supposed to make money for sterling, sterling isn’t here to make money for the mets!

Company A is sterling it owns Company B
If I own a securities company (A) and own company B I am not required to take my profits from company A to pay the bills of Company B!

SNY is company C! Owned by Company A it also is not supposed to pay Company B’s bills!
Company B is supposed to pay it’s own way making Company A worth more!
Not the other way around!

Hi Metsi,

It’s not personal money, it’s corporate money. The Wilpons could take every penny earned in profit out of the corporation and put it into their own personal pocket but that wouldn’t leave any capital for re-investment – not a wise business decision unless one is packing up and leaving.

How about we put this friendly debate to a close? I’ll cede the closing statement to you if you want to.

P.S. Either way one looks at it, we both agree David Wright is a goner (and it’s my hunch he might want to get out of Flushing as soon as he can, anyway, regardless of the money)

SNY money is not Met ior Wilpon money that money also beliongs to Time Warner and Comcast!

The Wilpons can put thier share of those profits into the team if they choose but it’s still putting their own personal money into the team that isn’t making enough to pay it’s own bills!

The attached might explain what I’m getting at. Note the portion that says “assets for the Mets”.

Joe

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Your a bit confused about TV Rights.
The Mets get the TV rights money then and now! Only difference is SNY now pays it to the Mets not Sportschannel!

The Angels were affording those guys based on selling TV rights to someone other than themselves in a year where TV Rights have jumped through the roof thanks to that Dodger deal. The Mets negotiated their contract with SNY long before that market was there! And even still part of the deal to get the network partners to pony up the money was the promise that they would not have to bid against someone else for the rights.

So you can claim SNY stops them from getting the most money they could get on the open market but in truth they simply get what is the fair market value for the time they signed that deal and when the next deal is up for renewal they will get Market value at that time based on all these new deals being made!

The owners who claim how much their TV rights help them are the ones who don’t own their own TV network or are in small markets where a TV network can’t really draw enough ratings to make a profit and still pay the TV Rights they are getting from Fox Sports Regional!

And one of the reasons Fox is offerring so much is to stop teams from doing what the Wilpons did and taking over the sports programming in that market!

Season ticket holders pay less per game ticket than do those buying seats on an individual basis. The Champions seats that I sat last year for opening day were $189 for season ticket holders and $229 for individual sales. The advantage to any team in selling a season ticket is that all the money comes in advance.

But still, what about the revenue from those television rights that appeared on the books in 2004 but not in 2011 since it now goes to SNY? The Angeles were able to afford to pay Puljos such a ridiculous sum because of their recent TV agreement. The same with the Yankees with their own station YES as it is the BoSox with NESPN. But by leaving the equation out, does this mean the Mets make nothing off of television since SNY is a separate entity and that’s where it all goes to?

Attendance of course is a big source of revenue, but owners have stated its the television rights and/or owning of their own sports station that brings in the real cash – I have posted such articles in the past but do not have the time to find them again.

And I will remind you that inflation has not gone up much since 2004!
Why do you think Interest rates are so low? They raise it to stem inflation and lower it to stimulate growth!

We didn’t lose money in 2009, And that was in CitiField!
Yes it has fewer seats but that didn’t seem to be a cause of losing money in 2009!

Lets also face a truth here the attendance in 2008 had as much to do with people going to see their last game at Shea as it did with any of the winning that went on that year!

It was the highest attendance ever for the Mets in history. that wasn’t actually a product of super fan enthusiasm nor their competitive september. It sure didn’t hurt though!
It was a lot of people who have spent a lifetime going to see the Mets at Shea Sheaing goodbye to it!

The 2009 season shows what attendance is possible and can sustain a 140 Mil payroll.

Any dip from that means lost finances and unpaid bills!
Shea isn’t coming back and unless they can draw as many people as they drew in 2009 all this money we think we saved for spending on future FAs will not actually exist.
If we lose 200K in attendance from last year we will have after 55 mil in cuts only saved 30 Mil!

Purging Wright would not even be enough to break even.

The solution can’t be made with cuts that also reduce the attendance!
Your not getting every penny!

Spending might bring more people but you still have to spend that money again not paying the bills unless 10 Mil brings in 20 mil you still only raised 10 Mil in revenue!

Winning can bring some more in but still by the time anyone buys the wins half the season is over…

We don’t have the financial problems because we spent too much because we paid the bills with the highest payroll!
We don’t have financial issues because we CUT salary because we lost money after ADDING Bay to the payroll!

Cutting hasn’t manage to pay the bills and this season may show what we think we cut covered less than half the potential losses or worse if even fewer of us show up!

The problems are caused by US having a lack of faith, lack of funds and no credible reason to go spend what little money we have to go see them!
Corporations are buusy trying to keep their lush salaries and are willing to get rid of the Season Ticket perk to do that!

So other than the economy booming, giving fans a lot of extra disposable cash plus businesses the money to buy sections like they have in the past,
Save getting a Superstar draw to lure in fans or running away from the Division,
There really is NOTHING Sandy or the Wilpons can do to fix the finances!
They didn’t cause it and have no way to really deal with it.

because no matter what they try and do it’s still dependent on if we go or not!

They could spend 100 Mil on talent tomorrow and if we don’t go it won’t fix the problem!
But we would more likely go if they did!
They could cut another 50 Mil from the payroll but if we don’t go it won’t help them pay the bills or the loans they have out there to pay for all the times we passed on going the last two years!

We are the cause but we have every right to deny them money!
Make a bad movie and no one will go to see it once the word gets out!
Baseball is the same business when you come right down to it!

Thats why Metallica gets the big bucks and Vanilla Ice is playing Bars!

But I don’t think the economy in 2004 compared to today comes into the conversation since we are talking in terms of numbers that apply specifically to the Mets of which are very similar enough in terms of attendance and payroll. Even though money does crawl in a bad economy, the same amount of fans who attend now (as compared to 2004) are actually paying more (adjusting for inflation) for the cost of tickets (with those added fees), parking and concessions. So they buy less but still pay more. Just like with Citi Field – less capacity but costing more.

And that’s why the drop in attendance is misleading as a reason behind the drop of revenue. It applies to attendance figures but not generated gross. The Mets can never draw anything remotely close as they did the final year at Shea – it is physically impossible even if Citi Field is SRO for every game of the season. There is a 20 percent drop in seating capacity.

But a 20 percent drop in attendance is offset by how much more is made off of each individual in attendance. Attendance figures look nice for the record books but 38,000 paying a lot more individually can generate much more revenue than 50,000 paying a lot less.

So this still doesn’t explain why the team, adjusting for inflation, made money during the Art Howe years and doesn’t now. And there is still the issue of the team once directly making money from the selling of television rights to which, on paper, it appears they make nothing off their broadcasts today. Any team losing all it’s television revenue would go broke. And the last I saw, the Mets were still on television – though they might be in a tough competition with “Beer Money” for the ratings.

Season Ticket sales pay the majority of the bills. Most season tickets in Shea (full season to be precise) are bought by companies and corporations.

When the economy crawls the first thing that gets cut are those perk purchases!

2006-2008 we drew 3.38, 3.85 and 4 Mil
2009 we drew 3.17 Mil And had our highest salary to date 149.3 Mil We lost roughly 800K in Attendance due to the injuries and the losing. about 10K per game! Add up what it costs per person to go to a game and times it by 81! Thats a BIG drop! But still enough to pay the bills!

They didn’t lose money in 2009! Probably didn’t make much either so that comes to about the breakeven mark for attendance and Payroll.
You can safely say for every 3 Mil of attendance they can make 149 Mil!

They lost another 609K in attendance in 2010 Lost 50 Mil on a 134 Mil payroll!

2009 was marred by injury, 2010 was a continuation of those injuries with beltran missing half the season!

2011 they had 2.35 Mil in attendance a drop of 207K which led to 20 Mil more in losses!

That 50 turned into 70!

If we lose another 200K in attendance this year and considering our cuts we stand to lose about 40 Mil again! Down 30 from the 70 but still 40 Mil short of paying the bills!

And what do we cut then?

Bye Bye Wright!

Which is why I said in the Wright thread Team performance, His performance is NOT going to have any affect on if we trade Wright! Sandy really told the truth this time!

If we don’t go then he will be forced to cut even more and keep cutting until Bay and Santana are gone and hopefull attendance has hit it’s rock bottom so those cuts actually balance the books!

And that Means want him or not Wright will get traded based on what WE do not what the team and Wright himself does!

LOL – that’s one thing we agree on – “they” built it. And that might have been the reason why Burt Lancaster crossed the foul line to get out!

But I did a little math on my own and, though this is totally unscientific, it raises some questions.

- During the years 2002-2004 our teams were just as bad and also drew less than 30,000 a game.

- In 2004, our payroll was still quite hight for those times at $77 million – which according to the inflation calculator, equals over $92 million in today’s terms. Since the Mets got no money for naming rights to Shea Stadium as they do today for Citi Field, let’s assume that additional revenue offsets the difference in payroll (remember, this is unscientific).

- And the cost for tickets, counting for inflation, were less than they are today. Not to mention not nearly the amount of luxury suites like those we have now.

So, in consideration of all this, why weren’t the Mets losing money back then as they are now? As we know, the Doubldays didn’t sell their majority ownership to get out of debt. Since part of our disagreement concerns SNY being separate from the Mets, could it be that in 2004 the Mets were mets were directly getting revenue from television rights from Fox Sports Channel and had to account for this in their ledger – while the money made from SNY today shows up in the books for Sterling Equities instead?

As I said, unscientific, but it does raise valid questions about how much a part attendance played in the Mets claiming to have lost $70 million this year and the Mets being treated as an entity distinct from Sterling Equities instead of part of it. For if the Mets are indeed separate, that means they see not a penny from the broadcast of their games over SNY in this, the largest sports market in the country. If so, then why? It wouldn’t be that both are owned in part by Sterling Equities, would it?

That’s why I say it’s impossible to distinguish the Mets from Sterling and that they are just a part of the overall corporation. The Mets are a money making source for Sterling Equities via SNY, merchandising, rental of storefront spaces at Citi Field, etc. and what they make for the overall corporation more than compensates for the $70 million loss shown on their books. It is not unusual to see this in many forms of business. Take the consumer electronics industry. All the major manufacturers have been losing money in their television divisions due to consumers no longer needing to buy new sets. But they still make both money and televisions.

Now that we have that it is our fault they can’t pay the bills out of the way
We can move onto did we have a right to choose to not go?
And that is most emphatically yes!

I’m not saying we didn’t have a good reason to pass on seeing them or it is our responsibility to go see them!

All I’m saying is we are the reason they have money problems and they will continue to have those money problems until we decide we want to go again!

We should not fairly point fingers at Sandy or Wilpon for the finances, It was all our doing!
They built it and we didn’t come!

James Earl Jones was wrong!

Since I was directly responsible in my own small way in causing the METS to be in the financial situation they are now in, I’ll plead guilty. If the tickets, parking and concessions as dictated by Fred and Jeff are still too rich for my blood, I’ll get a second job for the good of the team.

And the Mets make money off US!

We, the fans, did not put the Wilpons in the financial hole they now face. They built up a great amount of capital from us pouring through the gates even through the 2009 season. They lowered ticket prices this year simply because seats became too expensive for fans to afford and that’s why so many no longer came – the Wilpons outsmarted themselves thinking more could be made by building a smaller ballpark and charging extremely higher ticket prices – and it backfired.

This season they incorporated a “dynamic pricing” system which means if fans start to come back, the result will be those lower prices going up once again until they once more turn fans away which (like stocks) will cause them to dive in value to the discounts afforded to season ticket holders.

But still, did revenue alone dropping so severely the past two seasons force them to bring a financial consultant on Board? As mentioned, other franchises go through periods of low attendance and the resulting measures are nowhere as extreme as what the Wilpons are doing.

No team falls so far down financially in 24 months, especially in a largest market that is the tri-state area, to take the drastic steps the Wilpons are doing. It is not a situation where it has been year upon year of fans staying away plus limited television revenue due to a small market.

Its not up to the fans to get the team on track — it’s up to the owners not to push the fans away by telling them to eat cake (or chocolates?).

Buy a FA? With what money?
Win more games? With what players they can’t afford?

And I wish you guys would stop putting all these financial things on Sterling!
If you owned stock in Verizon should they call you up and ask you to empty your bank account to pay for their losses last year?

Sterling hasn’t lost a penny! If they had they wouldn’t be in court fighting a lawsuit!

We lost money because we didn’t attend with Reyes, beltran and K-Rod plus a team that was winning at a .593 clip in june!
What makes you think without those things we are going to draw the same and if not what the hell can they possibly do to increase attendance? Make more banner days? Give away more bobble heads?

It is so the fans who are responsible for the mess!
Sterling hasn’t taken any money OUT of the mets bank account they in fact have borrowed money to put what was missing in and pay the bills!
Why is that money missing?
Because Sterling is broke or because attendance went down?

We disagree upon the impact of the attendance in regards to re-signing players. Other teams go through dips in attendance and then take measures to bring the fans back. And it’s not like the Mets had attendance problems for years that added up to years upon years in the red. With the stiff price increases in 2009, they drew above the average 38,000 they projected was needed to turn a profit.

The problem stems from the instability of the parent Sterling Equities as a whole. On top of that, though Fred Wilpon still insists the loss of the Madoff investments didn’t effect the operation of the club, he noted that the civil suit was something they didn’t expect.

Its not the fans who were responsible for their mess and it’s not the fans who are going to get them out of it either. We don’t own the club.

It can be renegotiated even now if we wanted to!

K-Rods option was done away with wasn’t it?

The option has no bearing unless we refuse to let them renegotiate before the deal is consumated!
And why would we if we were not going to sign him?

The only way the option can hurt our trade possibilities if we intended to rent him to someone and try to resign him the following year when he hits FA!

The option will be renegotiated away before he turns in his Met jersey!

Truth is all it’s going to take is a reduction in Attendance this year from last in order for the Mets to be forced to trade him!

We keep talking about this option that gets voided but we forget that teams about to trade for a player are able to renegotiate an extention (and have) many times before!

If the GMs agree on the package and details of the trade the team that gets him could easily renegotiate a contract extention before the trade is made!

They will essentially get the right to do what we could do right now if we were actually interested in keeping Wright!

The fact we are NOT talking extention speaks volumes about our future plans!
They HAVE to deny it now because they just let Reyes, Beltran and K-Rod go and they can’t take yet another hit to the revenue stream based on reduced attendance!

But he is as gone as a duck from the north in WInter!

Only question is now how much we getting back!

Only thing that can stop that is an increase in attendance that covers that last 15-20 mil (out of the 70 Mil) that the cuts we made still have not covered yet!

Anyone expecting Attendance to increase this year?
If not then don’t expect to see Wright much past this upcoming offseason!