Grading the Omar Regime: The 2004-2005 Off-Season

87 Comments + Add Comment

• Seligman February 7, 2012 at 10:14 pm

  This was outstanding work and a great overall assessment. I don’t know if this site is on ‘Roids this offseason, but the output here has been great across the board for the last few months. Nice job. I am looking forward to more posts like this.
  • Nick Pugliese February 8, 2012 at 12:04 am

    Thanks. These comments always mean a lot. And we are as clean as Barry Bonds…
• Fonzie13 February 7, 2012 at 10:47 pm

  I don’t know where you got M.Cameron driving in 102 runs or stealing 60 bases but it’s way off.
  • Nick Pugliese February 8, 2012 at 12:00 am

    Ooops you’re right that should say Wright and Reyes. Don’t know how that typo happened.
• USMF February 7, 2012 at 10:55 pm

  Pete is a very difficult player/contract to judge. Before the Mets were even inconsideration for Pete, I was saying that anyone had to be stupid to sign him because of his age and injuries. But you can’t dismiss the what having Pete on the Mets did for the franchise. Pete was one of the most entertaining pitchers to watch. As much as I love Santana, he doesn’t come close to the “fun” factor Pedro brought. Pete was smart, had a ton of movement and had bigger balls than any pitcher should have.

  I was against the Beltran trade at the time too…I liked Beltran as a player, but he scored a huge contract after his monster playoff run the year before. The main reason I didn’t like the signing is because of the expectations that people put on him. Everyone wanted him to be the Mets version of A-Rod, they expected +.300BA with +30HRs and +130RBI. These were not the type of numbers Beltran was able to put up and numbers he didn’t come close to attaining consistently. I could see the problems with the fan base regarding Beltran the day the contract was announced. It was sad to see how people charatorized Beltran as being soft, even after he came back early in 2005 after the collision with Cameron and played with facial fractions (If I’m remembering properly) because the was an outside chance that the Mets could make a run at the WC.
• 86mets February 7, 2012 at 11:03 pm

  On a only slightly related note: the Oakland A’s just extended GM Billy Beane through 2019. So in the spirit of Moneyball the Mets should extend Sandy Alderson and his entourage through 2019 as well!! LOL
  • Met Maniac February 8, 2012 at 12:08 am

    That’s the funniest joke I’ve heard this year. Hopefully that Beane extension doesn’t set a dangerous precedent for rewarding failure.
• t agee February 7, 2012 at 11:12 pm

  Nice research and format Nick but I’m starting to see a white wash coming.

  Cameron, Floyd, Piazza, Glavine, Benson, stanton, Feliciano and Bell all gave Minaya things to work with and Trachsel wasn’t special but he remained in the rotation for two years. Cairo was a decent “hold the fort guy” but what sort of things did he do that didn’t show up on the field? We got Benson’s best years so 3/ 22.5 was a good sign? 175 IP 4.13 ERA? And Benson’s best seasons were his first two in ’99 and ’00. Even Wilson for Hernandez although not a bad effort even a backup C has value over and above a 2B for a team in need and we had serious needs at both spots.

  Pedro was brought into entertain and bring some life to an old and decrepit organization and that he did and no doubt brought a good walk up business on days he pitched. He gave us something to look forward to and more than paid for himself. Beltran a no brainer but full credit to Omar for actually getting these two guys. Castro and Hernandez were the types of additions that really move a Franchise north though because they don’t cost anything in prospects or take anything from the budget and these were the sorts of things that played into Omar’s strengths. mientcavage was a very reasonable choice and trade that he should have gotten more out of.

  As with any first year GM there is really only so much that one can do but this was the creative Omar. The Omar capable of the big move and the little move that pays off big or at least fills in behind the big guys competently. The Omar that looked everywhere, not just the type A route. One other aspect of this year was the reshuffling of Jose and Kaz, a no brainer too but he’s the one that did it.

  Great start to his tenure. Things were really looking bright back then.
  • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 12:15 am

    Agee he 2004 Mets were a much better offensive club than the 2010 Mets but I keep seeing posts on here that claim Omar took over a team that had nothing. That’s simply not true! Floyd,Cameron,Piazza although aging still a whole lot more productive than any catcher we’ve had since LoDuca’s 06 season,and young emerging stars Wright and Reyes.A pretty good bench,Wiggy and Valent and a couple of decent relievers.He was also able to add a lot of payroll his first offseason adding two of the biggest names on the free agent market.Alderson didn’t have that luxury.He has to cut not add payroll.I’m not saying Sandy couldn’t do a better job than he has but to say he took over a better situation than Omar is just flat out false.The two GM’s took over under entirely different circumstances.
    • Nick Pugliese February 8, 2012 at 12:29 am

      Even with adding Pedro and Beltran Omar only raised the payroll by slightly less than $5 million. I was going to mention that in the article, but left it out.
      • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:00 am

        Still had the advantage of adding payroll as opposed to cutting payroll. Omar had some expiring contracts.Sandy had to eat some. Again I’m not a Sandy apologist or anti Omar but they both took over entirely different situations. Omar signed Pedro and Beltran and was declined by Delgado,whos signed with Florida instead.Omar also had an offer on the table to Magglio Ordonez.I wish we were in the same position right now instead of reducing payroll by record numbers.
    • t agee February 8, 2012 at 1:01 am

      Your right Fonz, it was a jumbled mess but there were useful pieces there to use to hold the fort, make trades and that in fact contributed on the 2006 team.

      Totally untrue about inheriting not much, plus he didn’t have to clean up a mess, Duquette did the cleanup of the Vaughn’s, Alomar’s and Burnitz before he got there.

      That saved him a year. Not to say he walked into the situation Amaro did but to say he had nothing isn’t really true. Hell even Matsui could have held 2b or backup MI infielder till he was able to produce the right guy and the age of Cameron, Floyd, Benson, and some of the others was practically ID checkable compared to where we were heading.
      • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:34 am

        Agee I know I’m going to be labeled as a Sandy apologist which couldn’t be further from the truth but when I look at the 2010 team that Alderson took over,I’m totally shocked that some think the team was a contender that needed a few tweaks.The 2010 team won 79 games and take into account that the 2010 team that was 4 games under 500 was going into 2011 without their best pitcher bar none.

        Yes on paper the 2011 team with Johan looked good but I’m not even sure I would call that team a contender with Johan.They tanked after the allstar break with Johan and adding Beltran from the DL.

        They came out of the break 8 games over 500 and got back Beltran.Started out in SF lost the first 3 games and would’ve been swept if not for a gift call by Phil Cuzzi the HP ump.By the time they came back from that West Coast trip they were 1 game over 500,getting creamed by a last place AZ team and losing 3 outta 4 to LA. From that point on the team couldn’t hit their way out of a wet paper bag.Manuel even called hos offense pathetic.
        • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:57 am

          Take the 2010 Mets position by position and tell me that you think this team would contend for a WC.I wouldn’t even give them a punchers chance at the division with Phillies pitching.

          1B-Davis,huge upside coming off solid rookie season,We’re fine there.
          2B-Murphy. Huge mistake,he sucks outside of the battersbox,Need upgrade.
          SS-Reyes-If healthy 2nd best in the game behind Tulo,we’re fine there.
          3B-Wright,Still a good player but a declining star both sides of the ball.We’re above avg there.
          C-Thole-Black hole position,worst in the NL defensively.That’s sayin something with Doumit in the NL.No upgrade over Barajas except the ability to get on basebut no power awful Defense.
          LF-Huge question mark comingoff 2010 season.Dead weight.
          CF-Coming off solid season,faded in the 2nd half,I thought we were okay there except for his IQ.
          RF- Huge question mark coming off injury.Pleasant surprise.That’s 5 out of 8 positions avg or above offensively.That’s also 5 outta 8 avg or below defensively.

          Bullpen-on paper below avg except closer,above avg,not by much.

          Heres where the team is shaky and full of if’s as were the positions of RF,health,CF repeating 2010,LF rebounding,3B,rebounding,SS remaining healthy,2B not embarassing himself.

          The rotation. No Johan off the bat.Could Dickey repeat his very good 2010.Which Pelfrey do we get 2010 1st half or the nighmare from June to late August. Will Niese build off of a solid first half in 2010 or revert to the 2nd half nightmare.

          Now when I looked at this team the day Omar was let go,I saw no way in hell anybody including Alderson was going to get that mish mosh group of players to contend for 2011 unless Wilpon was willing to eat salary and replace those guys by going out and spending big dollars which we ll knew that wasn’t going to be the case. I was totally shocked this team hung around 500 as long as it did,which was a reflection of their never give up mentality that TC instilled in his players.
          • t agee February 8, 2012 at 2:20 am

            Agree Fonzie. A big part of instilling that attitude was in getting rid of some of the bigger salaried under performers and giving the younger hungrier guy a shot.

            Six years isn’t enough time to have the lack of prospects blamed on Omar but when you look at the Mets in general since Bobby Jones, is Pelfrey, Niese and Gee the best job we could have done for the rotation?

            Since McDowell and Myers is Pedro Feliciano the best reliever we could have produced?

            Since Dykstra is Fonzie, Reyes, Wright and Davis the only everyday players good on both sides of the ball? Dykstra was drafted 30 years ago.

            Why do the Wilpon’s insist on paying guys who are past, or well past their prime to come here and suck or lounge around the DL?
            • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 2:52 am

              Now I look at the 2011 starting 8 and even if they resigned Reyes it leaves a lot to be desired.

              1B Davis. I’m still confident this kid will be a top 1Bman in the NL without Albert and Prince.
              2B Murphy. I still think this is assinine. He’s a DH or lefty bat off the bench in our league.2B? Nuckin Futs.
              SS.Tejada.If he continues to improve with the stick and improves on th backhand in the hole,he’ll be fine.
              3B.Wright.I need to see him put up numbers before I say the dimensions changing turns back the clock 4 years.He still gets beat by 89-90 mph heater
              LF.Bay.Another guy I’m not convinced that the changes to Citifield automatically cures his trainwreck of a swing.
              CF.Poo rmans Pagan with the stick,better glove.Eh.
              RF. Love Duda’s bat.He’s got Davis like power,very disciplined for a young hitter and will take a walk rather than going out of the zone and get himself out.Awful and I mean awful anywhere on the diamond with the leather.
              C.Thole. An absolute joke that this kid is a starting catcher in the big leagues with his league worst defense and limited offense.

              Bullpen is much improved.Starting rotation is worse than last year.Johan will not have an impact in 2012.I’d bet the ranch.

              Without addressing the catching and SP issues this team is a 75-80 win team on the hgh end and a 70-72 win team on the low end. What moves could’ve been made to turn this team into a contender? I see people posting that better moves could’ve been made.What are they. This is not a knock on those who say that there could’ve been moves that put this team into a better position. I’m just curious to know which moves they think would be the ones to do just that.
              • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 2:53 am

                Should say 2012 starting 8.
        • t agee February 8, 2012 at 2:02 am

          2010 was just such an incredibly ill conceived team in so many ways it’s not even funny.

          We actually has 13 “hitters” on that team that got OB at a lower clip than TWO of our starting pitchers and this was in year 5 of the plan. Makes you wonder what the idea was for year 6.

          Among the poorest of decisions on the 2010 team was the wasting of a year of team control on 20 year olds Tejada and Mejia.

          No other team in MLB runs their organization in this fashion and some people can’t get enough of it.

          The one saving grace of that team was the staff. I’m sure Omar knowing Dickey from their Texas days went a long way toward Omar offering and Dickey accepting a spot in Buffalo but it sure was fortunate. Fortunate too was the low innings logged by the bull pen. What wasn’t so fortunate was Jacobs, Hessman, Castillo, Cora, Perez, Jesus Feliciano, Tatis, GMJ, Carter, Francouer, Cattalonotto and Bay. How the **** did this happen.

          One thing I do respect about Omar though is at least he didn’t try to trade the farm ala Steve Phillips and really destroy the Franchise.
          • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 2:14 am

            Having Hessman on the team instead of Nick Evans was utterly moronic.Evans was killing AAA pitching and Hessman was a month shy of his 1st social security check.That burned my ass.
          • Vinny B February 8, 2012 at 1:52 pm

            The 2010 team was not a bad team, the problem was the injuries. We started the season without our projected 1stbaseman(Murphy), our starting SS, and our starting CFer. If those guys are healthy, Jacobs, Cattalonotto, and GMJ don’t see ANY playing time…….

            And it’s hypocritical that you bash Jacobs and Cattalotto signings but defend Hu and Emaus last year by saying “well they didn’t cost much”, well you know what? Jacobs and Cattalotto didn’t cost much either – They signed minor league contracts, and they only saw playing time because our starters were injured.

            getting back to my main point, if the 2010 team was fully healthy, they would be pretty good. Their lineup would have been: Reyes, Pagan, Beltran, Wright, Davis, Bay, Castillo, and Barajas – The rotation would have been: Santana, Dickey, Pelf, Niese, and Takahashi, and the Closer would be K-Rod – That’s not a bad team at all. A fully healthy Reyes and Beltran would have made a HUGE difference in our lineup, and the pitching staff was solid that year, so if we were healthy, I think that team would have been much better than you think.
            • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 2:45 pm

              Vinny, first of all, the CORE salutes you, second of all, THANK YOU!!!!
              the thing is most of this sandy lover’s won’t admit the man never made a mistake, and if he did they try to spin it into a positive somehow.. especially tagee, he’s nothing but a second guesser and brings no baseball conversation whatsoever, all his comments are about what could’ve been done 6 7 years ago, he never talks about what’s going on with the team NOW because he’s not good
            • t agee February 8, 2012 at 3:40 pm

              First of all GMJ was the starting CFer, not a bench player and so was Jacobs and Cora on opening day. Now while I’ll give yo that I wouldn’t have picked Beltran, Reyes and Murphy to be the likliest injury candidates on the 2010 team the fact is both Beltran and Reyes were hurt 9 months before and Murphy was no sure shot to be a plus solution at 1B (although I was in favor of him remaining there till Ike was ready)

              Reyes looked like a beast in January and no one could have foreseen the the illness that he had and the fact that he had to do nothing for a whole month in order to get right but here in year 5 of the plan the best we could do was Cora?

              Beltran’s injury was more like a condition that was being monitored over the off season and while Omar did a good job in getting Pagan back, GMJ was the guy he was counting on to play CF. That was the best he could have done after 5 years?

              Murphy was no guarantee at 1B and Jacobs was the best bookmark till we got to Ike? hey better than that then blowing a prospect for a minimal upgrade but again this was year 5. not to say that it would be reasonable for Minaya to have a few Major league ready prospects for every position by that time but his strength was in young player evaluation. He could have and I’m sure he would tell you this himself, that he should have spent a lot more time and effort on trading some of his inherited prospects or Major Leaguers for a number of higher end kids in A+ or AA and had some real solutions to step in if necessary. I mean he did have question marks at those 3 positions and I think everyone is selling Minaya short to think that he couldn’t have swung a few trades like for Benson at the deadline in 2005 for instance to pick up a couple of intriguing prospects to back up and eventually take over for some of the guys he brought in here.

              Those guys would have been fine in year 1 but year 5? C’mon.
            • Vinny B February 8, 2012 at 4:36 pm

              GMJ started on opening say because Beltran was hurt. Jacobs started on opening say because Murphy was hurt. And Cora started because Reyes was hurt. The truth is, NONE of those guys would be starting if it weren’t for injuries. And I have no idea why Jerry decided to start GMJ over Pagan, it was a bad move – Pagan should have been starting.

              Anyway, the weak point of the 2010 team was the lineup, the pitching was surprisingly good. So if we had Reyes and Beltran fully healthy that year that team would finished well above .500 – No doubt. That was not a bad team, your just complaining about a couple of MINOR LEAGUE signings, that cost nothing, and they were probably worth a shot. And they are guys who every team has, and the only reason why they started for us(and it was only for about a few games anyway) was because of injuries to our best players.
              • t agee February 8, 2012 at 11:15 pm

                No reason to suspect that Murphy may not need a caddy? Was a sure thing? When Omar arrived he had Evans and Carp. Carp got traded in the Putz deal and Evans never got a shot.

                Beltran’s condition was well known for 9 months before opening day, Omar didn’t prepare ahead of time he just went out looking for whoever he could get after Beltran had surgery in January. when Omar arrived he inherited CFer’s in Pagan, Gomez, Milledge and Cameron.

                Reyes injury was guaranteed to be fully healed from 2009 and so was was Cora’s? No reason to have anyone else competent enough to at least defend SS. No better choice was necessary? Valdez wasn’t a better choice?

                This was year 5 for a team expecting to compete that had been ravished by injury the prior year and GMJ, Jacobs and Cora were the best we could do?

                Alright good job if you say so.
                • Vinny B February 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm

                  Your forgetting that GMJ and Jacobs were quickly replaced by Pagan and Ike, who were solid replacements. GMJ and Jacobs only played in a few games, so I don’t know why your making a big deal out of them.

                  The 2010 team was a good team, and if it weren’t for injuries, they would have finished well above .500. The Mets were not a bad team. Your just foucusing on a backup who only played in 7 games, and not the WHOLE team, which was not bad at all.
  • Nick Pugliese February 8, 2012 at 12:27 am

    I mentioned Cameron as being a piece he had, but Floyd was coming off one okay season and one “eh” season and it didn’t look like he was going to be the Cliff Floyd that was tearing things up just before signing with the Mets.

    It was clear from 2004 that Piazza just wasn’t going to be the same guy anymore and who knew if he would be able to go back to full time catching when you take into consideration his age and after playing so many games at first base the year before.

    Feliciano left for Japan that year and Heath Bell had just 17 major league appearances in his career up to that point so there was no way you knew what you could get out of him.

    Benson was technically a free agent so he only had Glavine/Trachsel to start with. I didn’t say Benson was a good sign that is one a put him in the “meh” category (not good/not bad), but like I said if he never got traded I would probably have him in the bad category.

    I was really close to putting the Wilson/Hernandez trade in the bad section as well, but Vance Wilson was so God-awful in 2005 I decided against it. Looking back just now I could definitely see it being considered bad, but then again it opened up a spot at catcher for Castro because the Mets had a logjam.

    Regarding Cairo, I’ve read places that he is a team leader in the clubhouse and a class act at all times. When you have young guys like Wright/Reyes just breaking into the show I feel it is important to have a guy like that to set the example.

    Definitely agree though that this was Omar at his best. He changed the culture in one year and it is a shame he lost sight of the creative/out side of the box thinking he used to build the ’05 and ’06 teams.
    • t agee February 8, 2012 at 1:36 am

      I’m sure Cairo was probably a good teammate and I agree that’s important but he was seriously exposed in a full time role, not that Omar would have had many choices and Cairo was a pretty decent choice but if you want to give Cairo credit for setting a good example you have to do the same for Floyd, and Cameron too for that matter. Those two guys were the most positive upbeat and solid true professionals this team has ever had and Floyd’s mentoring of Wright is well known. I remember Floyd hobbling around LF for a month until Piazza got back before going off to have surgery too and his 2005 was outstanding and still commanded respect in 2006.

      Piazza had 20 doubles and 20 Hr’s in 2004 and 2005 and was another true pro. La Duca on the juice in 2006 was better but the 2007 la Duca and then the overall combination of Schneider, Castro, Santos, Cancel, Alomar jr., Barajas, Blanco and Thole hasn’t been any better. It’s actually been a lot worse.

      Benson was a bad sign but there weren’t any options, he was young and it wasn’t big money or years and was used in a trade for the pen that was horrendous and a young starter who did pitch really great in some huge games and might have done more if he hadn’t been hurt (and maybe if he had a different medical staff) so it was an effective use of a young inherited grade C asset who still had name recognition from being the 1st overall selection in the draft.

      Wilson/Hernandez in the scheme of things is pretty minor and if Omar really believed in Hernandez I’ll just defer but we did have a few guys at 2B already in Kaz, Cairo and Keppinger, catcher not so much but no huge deal.

      As for Feliciano I would assume he would have stayed had there been a spot for him or a realistic chance of getting one. To his credit he did bring him back and even though giving a LOOGY a 3 year deal wound up being a tremendous bargain and even rarer than that left something behind (Fulmer) when he moved on.

      Also didn’t offer arb to Floyd and snag an extra supplemental pick which you just never know might have been a big help but that’s probably on the Wilpon’s.
      • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 2:11 am

        If I’m not mistaken,Benson was tradde to the O’s and got back Maine as the throw in.I forgot who else was in that trade but it also got us El Duque who was the staff ace in the 2nd half. Very good trade except of course for the 12 million dollar extension.

        I know Piazza was at the end of the line but he and Castro combined put up the best numbers in the NL for catchers.They knocked in 100 runs between them.
        • t agee February 8, 2012 at 2:29 am

          Jorge Julio.

          Also inherited Brian Bannister and turned him into A. Burgos and Jae Seo into Duanner Sanchez

          The amount of assets spent on the bullpen during Omar’s regime is simply unbelivable.

          Two #1 draft choices, three inherited starting pitchers, a supplemental round draft choice, two 2nd rounders and two 3rd rounders plus the disastrous Putz trade and when you think on what those assets could have been spent on it makes you sick.
          • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 3:03 am

            I forgot about Bannister. He was pitching pretty well in 06 before he tore his hammy. That trade for Burgos didn’t make sense.We needed starters and he was solid for us.I loved the Sanchez trade. He was just coming into his own with the Dodgers and started the season lights out in 06.That cab ride ruined his career.

            I liked the Putz trade better than the K-Rod signing.Putz could’ve closed and they could’ve used the K-Rod money on another starter.They had already spent 2 picks for Wagner who never saved a big game in hs life.I never thought Joe Smith would be as good as he has been.
  • METS62FAN February 9, 2012 at 6:50 am

    T, I’VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHAT ’05 REALLY WOULD’VE LOOKED LIKE HAD OMAR SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED HIS MISSION OF ADDING DELGADO; PERHAPS ’06 LIKE WITH A HEALTHIER PEDRO ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTING MORE THAN LEWD LOCKERTROOM DANCING IN THE POSTSEASON.
    WHILE BELTRAN’S ALWAYS BEEN THE EASY TARGET FOR FAN FRUSTRATION LINGERING SINCE ’06, FEW CHOOSE TO RECALL THE SIGNIFICANCE OF GETTING ZERO POSTSEASON CONTERIBUTION FROM BOTH PEDRO & DUQUE. IMO BELTRAN’S NEVER IN THAT POSITION AS THE STL SERIES ENDS IN 5 OR 6G
• Met Maniac February 8, 2012 at 12:14 am

  Thank you for this post. There are some here who have argued with me that Alderson inherited a worse situation than Minaya did. Anyone with half a brain can see that that was not the case. Alderson inherited an All Star team compared to this slop, and the difference between Alderson’s minor leagues that Minaya built, and the one Minaya got is so obviously lopsided. And yet in year two of Omar we went to the post season, three years ahead of plan and with successive winning seasons. Lets see what Alderson’s Mets deliver in year two, hopefully something a lot better than another 77 win season I hope.
  • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:21 am

    Omar inherited Wright and Reyes,Heilmann,Heath Bell,Dan Wheeler,Jae Wong Seo,Pedro Feliciano who although drafted by the Dodgers was developed by the Mets.

    Obviously Wright and Reyes were a big part of Omars success as were Heilmann and Feliciano.He used Jae Seo to get Duaner Sanchez,Trade Heath Bell and Dan Wheeler.Again,to say Omar had nothing to work with is not true at all.He did a very good job adding to some pieces already in place.Made some good trades and signed 2 huge free agents his 1st offseason.

    Even Frank Cashen who many think had even less than Omar,did have Mookie,Wally,Hubie and Jesse Orosco before he took over and they all contributed to the 86 team.Brooks contributed by netting us The Kid. Lets be fair Maniac.
    • Met Maniac February 8, 2012 at 11:26 am

      Omar inherited Wright and Reyes,Heilmann,Heath Bell,Dan Wheeler,Jae Wong Seo,Pedro Feliciano who although drafted by the Dodgers was developed by the Mets.

      Don’t be so naive because it makes you look foolish.

      Omar inherited a shortstop who had logged more DL time than playing time. Reyes blossomed under Omar.

      Wright didn’t even have one season under his belt and while Phillips and Duquette almost traded him, Omar kept him.

      Did you really bring up Seo, Bell and Wheeler? Why not throw in the kitchen sink while you are at it. What did they do up until Omar? I guess I’ll have to say Alderson got Parnell, Takahashi, Feliciano too.

      Alderson got proven versions of Reyes (2011 All Star) and Wright. Beltran (2011 All Star), Dickey (Thanks Omar), Tejada (Thanks again Omar), Davis, Duda, Murphy, K-Rod, Niese, Gee, and a farm that includes Harvey, Niewenhuis, Familia, Gorski, Flores, Carson, Puleo, Lagares, Valdespin, Satin, etc.)

      Here’s a nickel, go get yourself a clue.
      • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 11:52 am

        Are you saying that Reyes wouldn’t have blossomed under another GM? What, did Omar instruct Reyes himself? Everybody in baseball knew Reyes was one of the top SS prospects in the sport. Wright came up in 04 and showed what type of player he was going to become at 21 years old. Did he breakout in 2005 because of Omar too? Omar used all of those pieces from the minors to go out and get players that helped get us into the playoffs in 2006. Yes I did bring up Seo,Bell and Wheeler. Did he use them for trades or not.They somehow don’t count.

        It’s fine for you to use guys like Gorski,Lagares,Niewenhuis,etc as examples of what Alderson has to work with but the guys that Omar used for trade bait don’t count right?

        Yes Alderson got proven allstars,Wright,Beltran,Reyes. The only problem was neither of the 3 had been the same since 2008. Davis,Tejada,Duda,Niese,Dickey,Gee,Murphy,all nice pieces but the team is still a losing team. Have you watched this team the last few years.If you’re so confident about these players than why do you continue to say how bad this team is going to be. Sort of contradicting yourself.

        Get a clue? Always nice to talk to the classiest individuals over here at MMO. Another 20 year old who can’t debate without insults.
      • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 1:43 pm

        Maniac, that guy fonzie Loves sandy alderson and David wright.. good luck fighting that battle…
        • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 5:35 pm

          Wrong Alex. I can’t stand David Wright and if you could actually comprehend what people write here you would’ve read when I said I wanted both Wright and Reyes out of here before last year but since you have a hard time reading,I’ll simply chalk it up to that. Same with Alderson. I don’t love him and I don’t hate him like you who only likes people who share the same ethnic backround as you. You’re the one that idolizes a choke artist(Reyes) Not me,the other choke artist(Wright). You guys make me laugh. You act like Alderson is tearing up a juggernaut. You’re a troublemaking baiter. A fake Met fan who roots against your teams front office becuase you love to be miserable and try to bring everyone else down to your level. Go root for the Yankees.Better yet,the Marlins so you can watch your idol pull a hamstring.
  • Chris February 8, 2012 at 1:30 am

    so you’re saying inheriting a mess and having freedom to add payroll isn’t better than inheriting an all star team and having to cut the most payroll in MLB history?

    would anyone here prefer the latter?
    • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 2:03 am

      What allstar eamt did he inherit though? They were 79-83 and going into 2011 without their best pitcher.And a 11 million dollar budget to fill all of the holes. I can’t judge Alderson after 15 months on the job.He has made some mistakes along the way but I have to give hm until his 3rd year on the job before I declare him the worst GM in franchise history as some keep saying.Totally unfair.Just like it would be to judge Omar after his 1st 3 years had the tables been reversed.
      • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:11 am

        Agreed. I reserve judgement until I know the full scope of what Sandy is working with and what the overall plan is.
      • Met Maniac February 8, 2012 at 11:30 am

        The Mets would have been back to the post season with any GM beside Alderson who threw in the towel and got called out by Dickey, Wright and Izzy for it. What little he spent, he spent like an idiot. Most GMs can run circles around Alderson a proven 8 year in a row loser. $15M on Rauch and Francisco and neither can close. We already had that in Parnell. What an incredible waste of money.
        • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 12:53 pm

          The Mets would’ve been back to the playoffs with any other GM besides Alderson? Come back to earth.They fought tooth and nail to hover around 500 all year even before the trades of K-Rod and Beltran.No GM in the sport was getting last years team in the playoffs. And you tell me to get a clue.LF is useless,CF couldn’t catch a cold in the OF,C can’t catch a pitch,3B is a shell of his former self,2B had below avg production,1B missed the rst of the season after may.Only RF and SS pulled their weight.Murphy filled in well with the bat but killed the team with his mental lapses on the bases and in the field,same could be said for Duda who hit well but was terrible in the field on on the basepaths.The rotation was average and the bullpen was awful. Branch Rickey wouldn’t have gotten that team into the playoffs. And that less than mediocre team cost 142 million dollars. Unreal!
    • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 8:21 am

      Chris, obviously Sandy wanted to reduce payroll by 60M. Of course when Omar took over it does matter that the Mets raised the payroll significantly. Those have nothing to do with it. Omar by signing a bunch of stars wanted to win and Sandy by not signing a bunch of stars does not. It is the exact same circumstances… LOL.
• Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 7:28 am

  So wait, this article rates the 2004-2005 offseasons? i am not sure i am reading correct about this article.. it talks about what happened in those offseason but grades the whole beltran career? either way, the offseason we lost a lost of contracts. and we replaced bad contracts with some good ones, pedro was more to get people in the seats, if it wasn’t for looper blowing games left and right this team in 2005 would’ve been even better, remember they were in the first week of september 69-62 only 5 games out before fading big time and losing like 10 out of the next 11… also, remember delgado was almost a met before deciding signing with the marlins.. overall that offseason set the trend for what the mets were gonna be for the next 3 years, unfortunately, pedro got hurt, glavine was old, the bullpen sucked after the 2006 season, the players choked in back to back seasons, then all kinds of crazy injuries started to happened and minaya just got crazy with the money and was in over his head as a GM, the signing of perez and castillo did him in, those 2 signing imho were his sentence to be fired. it’s a shame because he is a good talent evaluator and gave us some good player and some bad ones too, but at least he was trying to win. and without risks you wouldn’t know whether you win or lose. it’s part of baseball..
  • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 8:18 am

    I just wonder how much of what Omar did was Omar decisions and how much was mandated… same as with Sandy. What we do know is that Omar had a plan and abandoned that plan after 2006. Get rich quick schemes either are incredibly successful OR fail big time and set you back for years to come, just ask the Wilpons and their financial advisers. As for unfortunates, yeah there were a lot of injuries but we do have to admit that some of those were due to having injury prone players.
  • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 8:38 am

    TRS. i disagree, beltran’s knee began taking at hit at age 31, 31!!! for god’s sake, and reyes injury in 2009 was while running,delgado was sliding prior to that all 3 combined had missed 57 games in past 4 season. so i am not sure what you’d call injury prone, also, santana same fate.. to omar, you know exactly what my feeling were about him signing oliver perez and luis castillo, i was going crazy in ceduche’s blog about omar signing them, wasn’t thrilled about picking up the option on alou either, he was way in over his head regarding those signings, i had no idea what exactly he was thinking, same with that bum alex cora, i mean, he paid $4 million to that bum to be a back up n because we somehow needed “good guys” in the locker room.. he was agressive but after making a few mistake he then became timid and went for the “sure” thing and he got burned..
    • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:02 am

      How about Elduque, Alou and Pedro? Don’t we assume that all three of those are going to get injured? What was his contingency plan for WHEN not if Alou got injured? For when not if Elduque got injured?
  • Nick Pugliese February 8, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    I graded the trades and signing on a long term outlook first and then the final grade is Omar’s grade for how well he did to get the team ready for 2005. So first 4 grades are Omar’s long term grades and last grade is Omar’s just for 2005.
• srt February 8, 2012 at 8:35 am

  I was on board with the Omar hiring and even more so when I heard his initial plan to get the team back in contention.

  His early years could definitely be graded a plus, IMO.

  I’m not convinced that we wouldn’t have landed Beltran if Pedro wasn’t here first, but we’ll never know. Pedro is also one of my favorite pitchers over the span of his career. Remember asking myself though the reason Boston was letting him walk. If it was concerns about his health and longevity going forward, they were onto something. Same question I asked myself when they let Papelbon walk this season and all I keep reading was how this was a great signing for Philly.
  • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 8:39 am

    You know I was a big Omar fan to but people forget how badly he handled the press, botched the Delgado signing, and seemed to have no plan when things went wrong. Again as an Omar fan I would not say he was a failure at all however because of some of his decisions and the overall play of the players on the field along with the Wilpons indiscretions in their personal finances the Mets had to make some tough decisions including letting Reyes walk.
    • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 8:47 am

      the Wilpons indiscretions in their personal finances the Mets had to make some tough decisions including letting Reyes walk.”

      i am sure the GM had a lot to do with that as well…
      • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:00 am

        That’s just it, just as with Omar how do we know? Ultimately it is not Sandy that even offers a contract in those types of deals. Most owners will take their recommendation but ultimately that is why I choose to give Sandy more time.

        Honestly, and I know we will disagree and Reyes is/was your favorite player based on your ridiculous comments that he is the greatest Met of all time, regardless of whose decision it ultimately was to not resign Reyes at 100M+ whether it be money, Wilpons or Sandy I think considering the current team it was the right move. You can disagree all you want but that does not mean there were not logical reasons not to pay Reyes 100M. Just as there are logical reasons to trade David Wright when the time is right. Again, that is what people on here get their underwear all knotted up about. There are logical reasons things happen even if you don’t agree with them. Where we get into illogicals is saying things like Sandy does not want to win or the Wilpons are cheap… those are not rational statements. What guy goes into his job and wants to suck? Just as how can an owner who spends 150M be cheap for not signing the next big name?
        • SaltyGary February 8, 2012 at 9:04 am

          What guy goes into his job and wants to suck? Unfortunately there are people like that but fortunately they don’t make it too far up the food chain to make a dramatic impact…
          • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:10 am

            I have not met many that WANT to suck, I have met some not willing to pay the price or work hard to be successful. Considering Sandy’s resume, I doubt that is the case.
            • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 9:39 am

              trs86, what resume you’re talking about??? as a GM he’s got a losing record, and 8 straight season with a losing record.. not sure exactly what’s so hot about that…
              • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 10:28 am

                Come on Alex, he is regarded as one of the most respected men in baseball. As for his losing records, if that continues here past 2013 he will be ran out of town regardless.
        • srt February 8, 2012 at 9:24 am

          Over on Fangraphs, they’ve got an article on the best 10 off season signings – of course all by the numbers.

          They’ve got Beltran as #1 and Reyes as #2.
          I’ve got some opposing opinions on that list but Fangraphs is not a site I comment on. It’s all numbers and nothing but the numbers.

          Had to LOL though at one comment – obviously a Met fan – who said:
          ‘Woo I’m glad the top two on the list produced a champtionship for the Mets, that makes me feel a lot better about losing them.’
          • Alex68 February 8, 2012 at 9:41 am

            yep, that is very funny, but for now we keep the MVP of the World Series with us, david wright… now THAT makes me feel very good about our continues chances to make the playoffs..
            • srt February 8, 2012 at 10:02 am

              Yeah, I wanted Reyes signed too…

              As for who to blame? I know you keep pointing to SA.
              How much stock do you take in Rubin’s analysis? He had this to say in his column on 5 Dec 11:

              ‘Don’t blame Jose Reyes. He did what he was supposed to do in taking the best offer.’

              ‘Don’t even blame New York Mets general manager Sandy Alderson. It doesn’t matter how many former GMs he has collected in the front office — if there’s no money to spend, you’re swimming in the guppy pool.’

              ‘So whom do you blame for Reyes defecting to the Miami Marlins — the Miami Marlins — for six years, $106 million? To whom should the anger be directed at for a New York team not having the means to retain one of its homegrown stars?’

              ‘Commissioner Bud Selig, principal owner Fred Wilpon and family, former GM Omar Minaya and swindler Bernie Madoff — probably in that order.’
          • Donal February 8, 2012 at 9:45 am

            Their NotGraphs section has some cool stuff. Even the main site does have a few things that aren’t all numbers. But, ya, it can be pretty numbers heavy over all.
            • srt February 8, 2012 at 10:02 am

              NotGraphs section….I’ll have to check it out. Thanks.
    • srt February 8, 2012 at 8:59 am

      Well, if you remember correctly, I first started my ‘OMAR MUST GO’ chant after the Bernazard debacle. We were the #1 laughingstock of the major leagues after ’07, ’08, the handling of injuries in ’09 and then the press conference on the Bernazard firing with Rubin. That was the last straw for me. At that point, my thoughts were he had his chance, the organization is going backwards, the Wilpons look like fools and Omar wasn’t helping the situation. He tried to do damage control through that summer but every time he joined the booth or talked to the reporters in the dugout, it just made it worse.
      • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:03 am

        Yeah I hung on longer than you did and even supported him during that Rubin debacle, however I began to realize they could not move forward with the current strategy of buy the big name and have no contingency plans.
    • SaltyGary February 8, 2012 at 9:02 am

      “We are having a investigation into Tony Benezard. We will investigate whether it a good Idea to investigate the investigation. Once the investigation is concluded on the investigation we will provide the investigation results”. He definitely wasn’t one with words…

      Somewhere there is a article on the other site that Grave wrote that broke down all his moves, it was a really great piece. You can see a substantial philosophy change in 2007. Pre 2007 is was all about short and long term goals. In ’07 in completely changed to All In, and unfortunately is didn’t work.
      • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:09 am

        Right, they call it all in for a reason. All in can net you the the jackpot but if you don’t win it can leave you broke, desperate and in need. Almost every team that goes all in and fails has to pay the price and rebuild.
      • srt February 8, 2012 at 9:19 am

        You’re right, that was a great piece. I was just thinking about that yesterday. Seeing it in black and white really supported what a few were saying about Omar’s reign.

        Damn…I miss Grave.
        • SaltyGary February 8, 2012 at 9:54 am

          What happened to that guy, did he get sick or hurt?
          • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 10:29 am

            Sick of the time he was investing. That was really the turn for TRDM, having to replace his post game reports has proved impossible at best.
            • srt February 8, 2012 at 10:34 am

              Interesting…
              Just goes to show you that to do something well, it definitely takes effort.
              Those post game wrap ups of his were a must read.
            • SaltyGary February 8, 2012 at 10:51 am

              Too bad he had to go to the extreme and just disappear.
      • Mr North Jersey February 8, 2012 at 10:42 am

        Salty your sure your not thinking about this post?

        http://realdirtymets.com/2010/09/23/where-did-minaya-go-wrong/
        • srt February 8, 2012 at 10:46 am

          Sorry Jerz…did I get that wrong too?
          I thought there was an post done before yours (or maybe after?) by Grave on this subject.
          • Mr North Jersey February 8, 2012 at 10:48 am

            I wouldn’t doubt Grave having done a post I just don’t recall one the way Salty described it.
        • SaltyGary February 8, 2012 at 10:54 am

          That is exactly the piece! and to think I was giving Grave credit. Good work my friend. It’s also great to read through the comments of old posts to see if we still believe what we said in the past.
          • srt February 8, 2012 at 10:56 am

            Same here. My bad. Still a great post.

            Just read through all the comments on that thread. Some very interesting perspectives.

            And looking back at this post all laid out for us now, it’s not hard to see where the tide turned.
    • t agee February 8, 2012 at 12:38 pm

      I was positive we had finally gotten the right guy here when Omar was hired in Sept 2004. I was as sure of it as I’ve ever been about anything with this team. But he was in too much of a rush and lost sight of the long term picture.

      All the GM’s the Wilpon’s have hired eventually wind up falling victim to this disease except for Mcilvaine who got canned after 3 1/2 years for wanting to spend on the draft and actually building a team that would be around for a while like he did as amateur Scouting director under Frank Cashen.

      The really infuriating thing is that Omar is SO much more talented than Harazin, Phillips or Duquette. He had the ability to make intelligent choices that weren’t all or nothing type decisions. He also had the ability to get the right big star and plenty of money to work with. He didn’t have to follow Steve Phillips plan.

      If Omar had combed other teams farm systems and used the assets he inherited he would have produced a team with quality and depth that would have lasted until his drafts and IFA’s were Major league ready and he would have had a lot more prospects in the system and a lot more money to work with.

      Eventually every need had to be filled at the last minute and no one can get the best value or get the best guy that way.

      Younger and more athletic became older and more arthritic and while he did produce an average number of quality prospects in comparison to other teams, much more than that was required when he arrived here and right as the steroid era ended.

      Lost opportunity because we had a guy who didn’t have to go about filling every need the lazy and media favored way but eventually that’s exactly the way he went and it simply cannot be a coincidence that every GM the Wilpon hires does this. It’s done because of business reasons, not baseball reasons. It produces an avalanche of favorable publicity that starts paying for itself before the first check gets written where as the draft bonus produces next to no buzz that translates into dollars until after the kid is up here for 3 months or so 5 years down the road.
      • srt February 8, 2012 at 12:44 pm

        Loved your last paragraph.
        It’s long been speculated that had the Wilpons are too much ‘hands on’ type owners.
        • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:06 pm

          I’d say more so Jeff being more hands on than Fred. Jeff interferred with his front office personnel going back to Phillips.He was even worse under Duquette.
• USMF February 8, 2012 at 8:58 am

  Omar didn’t take over a great situation, the team sucked for four years…he had an shell of his former self in Piazza, Floyd was always injured and Cameron only hit .231 in 04 and only played 76 games in 05. He was also stuck with Matsui, Looper and Zambrianless. The farm system sucked and Bell, as great as he was in SD, sucked in NY and was a complete joke.

  As good and unappreciated as Glavine was, he was never an ace. The 04 had Garcia and Spencer as key players in the OF…Other than Reyes, Wright, Heilman and Glavine, Omar built the Mets into a winner on his own. The team had no catcher, no 1st baseman, the middle of the infield was screwed up by Duquette and no closer and little in the rotation and nothing of promise in the system.

  Duquette didn’t the cleanup of the Vaughn’s, Alomar’s and Burnitz…they were gone automatically before he ever took over.

  You can like Alderson and still acknowledge what Omar did. Omar’s and Alderson’s situations are completely different and it’s unfair to both GM’s to try to compere them, but that’s what we do so here it is…

  The team Omar took over was old and very thin. Omar did have finical flexibly and while Omar did spend and the Mets were at the top of spending…payroll didn’t really get big until the 2008 season. The 2003 payroll was bigger than the 2007 payroll. Omar’s problem’s were because he abandoned his plans and and tried to spend his was past the problems with the team.

  Alderson’s team is completely different. The farm is a little better, but it’s still thing and there’s not a lot of MLB ready talent. His biggest contracts (Wright, Bay and Santana) gave him little. K-Rod was a top closer, but had a option that the team couldn’t afford. Beltran had a very good season, but his time was up and the contract limited Sandy’s flexibility. The only real advantage Omar had was the flexability to actually try to improve the team. Alderson can’t really do anything but to not sink too far down until the teams money problems are solved.

  I don’t like what Alderson is doing with the team, but choice dose he have? He can’t be graded until the Mets have the ability to spend and then we’ll see what kind of shaped the team is in.
  • trs86 February 8, 2012 at 9:07 am

    Nice rational post. I really like these two things:
    . Omar’s problem’s were because he abandoned his plans and and tried to spend his was past the problems with the team.
    He can’t be graded until the Mets have the ability to spend and then we’ll see what kind of shaped the team is in.

    I keep saying that if we are in the same position after 2013 then I will bring the pitchforks.
  • Mr North Jersey February 8, 2012 at 10:29 am

    The most rational comment of the day.
    Well said.
  • jessep February 8, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    See I actually disagee USMF. I get what you’re saying but I think Omar took over a great situation for any GM.

    When he was hired, he had owners who were willing, ready and able to spend money to improve the club. He was hired with a lot of roster flexibility for any new GM to make their mark. He was hired with TWO young superstars waiting to make a name for themselves in the National League.

    I think he took over a great opportunity to be honest. I think Omar did a lot of good, but the bad he did was gambling the future on the present and if they had won a WS the gamble would have paid off.

    They didn’t, and here we are.
    • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 1:27 pm

      I agree with this. The team itself wasn’t any good but he got to come in here with money to spend and expiring contracts to where the money spent would be offset by the guys walking.He had two budding stars and a few useful pieces.He didn’t have any lock down starters but they were serviceable.Glavine,Benson,Trachsel and Seo were not great but they weren’t terrible either.Wright,Reyes,Floyd,Cameron and Piazza even at an advanced age was still producing better than most catchers. Omar did a good job adding to those pieces and the team won 12 more games in 05.Then he added Nady,Wagner and Delgado,etc and they improved by 14 wins.

      Why anyone compares the two GM’s situations is beyond me.One was brought in to add to the 2 young stars emerging,the other was brought in to subtract from the under performing,over paid nucleous.
    • USMF February 8, 2012 at 4:11 pm

      I hear ya, I think we’re on the basic same page.

      While team wise, I think Alderson got a more talented team and better farm (not saying it’s good) Sandy has very little flexibility. I’d think everyone would say that Omar had the better situation and that’s the one they’d rather have. (Although, I think that now, Wilpon is truly letting the GM run the show and now they have the ability to draft any one possible and not worry about the slotting BS)

      I really think Omar did a pretty good job, especially to start. He ended up playing “Dutch Boy” trying to plug holes after they started leaking and didn’t actually fix the problems before they happened. Some of it was because of bad moves, or more specifically, a lot of moves that turned out bad. Every GM gambles, either on moves the make or don’t make…Omar made some very good non-signs, and some pretty risky moves that failed. A lot were good risks that bombed out.

      I just really think that trying to compare the two GM’s and situations are a waste of time. I also think that it’ll take a couple of years before any GM’s influence is truly seen and maybe even longer for Sandy because until the money problem is fixed, the team isn’t going anywhere. My real hope is that Sandy leaves the team with better depth that what Phillips left behind. That way, when the Mets are ready to compete again, they have a system of players in place to support a long run.
      • Fonzie13 February 8, 2012 at 11:35 pm

        Totally agree with this entire post.
• Mr North Jersey February 8, 2012 at 12:25 pm

  Beltran was a move to get something for him b4 he left. The Mets actually paid a lot of his remaining salary if not mistaken to accomplish this. KRod was a staright up salary dump if you want to believe flexibility has nothing to do with it you can but I would say in retrospect both flexibility and dumping salary paid a huge part.
  • Mr North Jersey February 8, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    played* not paid. Freudian slip.