29
2012
Alderson Compares Duda To Joey Votto
An article by Hojo's Mojo
General Manager Sandy Alderson brought up the names of Jason Giambi and Joey Votto while mentioning players he believes are comparable to right fielder Lucas Duda.
“I think they will end up having a similar profile: Power guys with an excellent eye at the plate. If you have that combination, you can be a superstar. Especially for a left-handed hitter, if you’ve got power, the high on-base percentage, the approach and you can hit left-handed pitching, that’s Reds first baseman Joey Votto. It’s a handful of guys, and Duda has already demonstrated that he has that potential.”
Alderson also said that Duda is similar to a young Jason Giambi whom he drafted when he was with Oakland.
Duda isn’t missing any tools offensively he said. “He’s the complete offensive package,” Alderson said. “Big guy, power hitter, good approach at the plate, hits left-handed pitching, so it’s a complete offensive package.”
You can read more about what Alderson had to say about his young slugger in the NY Post.
Now that’s high praise…
Yesterday, Duda put on another fireworks display during batting practice and launched over a dozen balls over the fence on Field 7
About the Author: Rob Johnson
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.0 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 6.5 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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No pongas en duda, a LUCAS DUDA!!!!!! Lol, while i like the comparisions with votto, i don’t like the one with Steroid junkie giambi.. ugh… but if we get to have duda putting up his numbers i’ll be fine.. as we have seen, cheating is not good, see RYAN BRAUN!!!
So would you be upset if he compared him with Manny? I think the idea is that Giambi was another one of those most likely gonna be a very good players with or without the roids. Either way those two names are very high praise but I really don’t like it when FO people or managers try to label players with accomplished players. To me it puts a lot of pressure on the player. I just want Duda to be the DUDE.
Nope wouldn’t have liked it either, same reason you explain about.. whether is manny, giambi, ryan braun, etc, i would not want any player on the mets roster or any other team to be linked or compared to someone who uses steroids, i don’t think it’s good for the game, but as i have said often, duda is a guy who imo will be a STUD for years to come.
Yeah, I understand and respect your opinion on roid users. I just have a different opinion, it’s wrong should not happen and just don’t care anymore. I think baseball is doing more than any other sport to clean up their image but it was an image that they embellished and then in turn went on a witch hunt of their own players even though they were aware and turned a blind eye when it was occurring.
I’ll take it! Duda seems to be the biggest story in ST thus far and I’m looking forward to seeing him in some games soon.
Comparing Duda to Votto offensively is high praise. Defense is something both have to work on. I’m hopeful that with more experience Duda can be a serviceable, average defender.
by the way, KUDOS to DAVID WRIGHT for standing up and being a MAN about that insulting underdog shirts, Wilpon can shove those crappy shirts up his ***, and by the way, it was collins in the mix for these t shirts as well..
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-mets-david-wright-unimpressed-jeff-wilpon-underdog-motivational-tactics-article-1.1029698
LoL, I saw in the recent comments it say “Alex68: on Alderson Compares Duda To Joey Votto: by the way, KUDOS to DAVID WRIGHT…” and thought that has to be either 1 a typo or 2 the setup to a joke. Low and behold I was wrong on both counts.
No pongas en duda, a David Derecho!!!!!!
Heh. David Right.
LMAO, MNJ David derecho?? lol, you’re very creative.. always give me a good laugh..
I agree with you and David on this one. As a coach I often use the underdog speech to my players but how insulting would it be to have the principal give them to us? Also, it’s a little different with the Mets IMO, as it is now with my team.
When I got there they really did stink, they had been open 7 years and never had a winning season and had won 10 games in 3 years combined. Last year we did much better and went 10-15 and had almost everyone coming back. We had incredibly high expectations for ourselves but the league predicted us almost dead last again. That was a prime time for me to use the underdog theme and speech. In fact our motto for the season was “we exceed expectations.” We finished 3rd and had the best season in school history going 15-10 and having our chances to win the title. Not saying all this to brag but would the team be able to get behind an underdog approach next year?
My point, the Mets can’t really use the underdog approach IMO when they have guys like Wright, Johan, Bay still on the team. To me that’s insulting to those guys who have been there and done that, even if they have not won a title. They still expect to win.
Congrats on last season.
I commented originally…..Something tacky about ownership having these tee shirts made. As in don’t they get the correlation between the fact that they’re underdogs to begin with is on them??
Like I said to me it’s more of something a coach would use behind closed doors not out in public championing the fact.
So basically, you’ve had 1 playoff apperance in 7 years??? You’re a terrible coach then…
Lmao, just kidding ok..
Hey LOL, I just got there last year. We have made the playoffs both seasons, long story on how in the hell we did last year with a 10-15 record. It’s about how you finish in the division and we made a late push.
‘Complete package offensively’. Now if he can only play a passable defense out there in RF…..
Or could he slide over to LF? Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Bay starts getting platooned around June 15th or so.
Yeah, the ‘Bay Watch’ this year will be interesting.
If Duda can drive in 85 to 100 RBIs hitting 5th or 6th that would bode well for the Mets because driving in that many runs hitting in that spot would be a very good indication of how the middle of the order is doing = winning games.
But Alderson and his army don’t like to talk about RBIs, just getting on base and I GUESS Duda could be able to do that well too but that = losing.
But hey, he may walk a lot and not drive in those runs in front of him and have a high OBP = losing
Driving in runs and especially driving them in in BIG SPOTS is what’s gonna make Duda his money, not his OBP. And Mets fans should be well versed in not being able to drive in runs in big spot so THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER. But I guess they haven’t learned their lesson and need MORE leaving runners on in big spots and more losing to remind them
Why is getting on base at a high rate a bad thing? RBI as you said will fluctuate based on the guys in front of him and will often be out of his control.
I understand you don’t like sabermetrics but OBP is not even a saber stat. It’s just another measure to look at. It is not the complete story but it certainly is part of it.
“…driving in that many runs hitting in that spot would be a very good indication of how the middle of the order is doing…”
Exactly. A player’s RBI total is dependent on the on-base tendencies of the hitters in front of him, which is why if Duda can boast a high OBP along with his power, he should get his RBIs from the guys in front of him (provided they do their job, which Duda has no control over), and so too should the guys behind Duda. If the most common words we hear from GKR are “merry-go-round,” the Mets will be just fine.
Yeah, I was just taking a look at Frank Thomas’ stats as he is one of the guys that started the high OBP talk.
He had some unbelievable years but, one year where he hit 43 HR and had 143 RBI (.328 .436 .625 1.061 OPS+163) and another year where he had 35/125 (.347 .456 .611 1.067 OPS+ 181). By all accounts his 35/125 year he had a better individual season but his team surrounding him was not as good.
Man that guy was a stud.
TRS, your comment on Frank Thomas got me wondering what was Babe Ruth’s lifetime OPS+. Ruth’s lifetime OPS+ was 206 and his peak value occurred in 1920 and his OPS+ for that year was an unbelievable 255.
Gategem, Ruth’s career OPS was an insane 1167,highest of alltime. Bonds holds the single season record with over 1400 if you can believe that.
A player’s RBI total is dependent if he can DO IT. And is one of the most important characteristics a player can develop and THAT’S what’s gonna earn him his money. He can hit a Sac FLY to put them in the lead and not get on base and I prefer that than to raise his OBP with a stupid walk.
Nice try trying to put words in my mouth in your usual slimy way. But that’s what you are and that’s how you operate.
The Mets success is dependent on Duda driving in those middle of the order guys. I meant it in the context of if the middle of the order guys are hitting than that bodes well for the Mets but if the beginning of the bottom of the order drives them in, and that’s where Duda most likely will hit for now than it bodes well.
Their success it not dependent on those middle of the order guys getting on base.
I don’t need to be reminded about an hitters OBP. Learning how to take pitches and hit begins when you’re 7 years old.
You don’t need to reduce players to what they already learned as kids (not swinging at bad pitches, etc) and take the aggressiveness they’ve learned to grow confident with as major leaguers just because a STUPID new “worker bee” and “close to the vest” philosophy is being imposed on them. And that’s what this STUPID, LOSING OBP philosophy is about – it’s about taking away a hitter’s learned aggressiveness and returning him back to his beginnings and creating more of a passive approach.
That equals LOSING>
Man, where do I start? If the guys ahead of Duda are not getting on base, who is Duda driving in?
If the middle of the order isn’t hitting then the Mets aren’t getting above 70s wins
you are nothing but a dumb follower – a worker bee. Try understanding what you read for what it is you whining, rear-end sniffer
Bayonne is right. Look at the all time OBP leaders in baseball history. All losers.
Ted Williams .482
Babe Ruth .474
John McGraw .465
Billy Hamilton .455
Lou Gehrig .447
Barry Bonds .444
Rogers Hornsby .434
Ty Cobb .433
Jimmie Foxx .428
Tris Speaker .428
Right and it’s not just their OBP that made them a good hitter. Good hitters get on base. It’s not a hard concept to figure out.
i think their ability to hit had a little something to do with that.
All good hitters get on base a lot.
Nice try trying to rewrite with history.
It all begins with being able to HIT
As I said, find a good hitter with a bad OBP. Find a bad hitter with an OBP over .375.
Vlad Gurerro .290 BA .317 OBP
And the converse of that:
Abreu .253 BA .353 OBP
What you fail to realize is if the guy has a high BA he also has a high OBP just because hitting ensures it!
having a high OBP does not mean the BA is good!
Not if the guy walks more than hits!
Who walks more than they hit? Honestly, all these examples you use to “prove” us wrong are examples that completely hypothetical with no chance of happening. Talk in the realm of baseball to try and make a baseball point.
Who said they have to walk more than they hit?
The issue is how much of that OBP is a hit (that can also drive in runs) compared to a walk (that can’t unless the bases are loaded?)
Carlos Pena had a .225 BA, .357 OBP! 111H 101BB
Nearly half that OBP was unearned OB!
Looking at his BA tells you that!
You can say getting on base is as good as a hit except the player can’t recreate that performance without the Pitcher’s help!
By the same token a guy who hits .300 earns most of his .357OBP!
And drives in runs when he gets hits that walking won’t drive in!
Yet Pena always seemed to have decent RBI stats right?
Vlad was not a very good hitter last year.
Career: .318 .379 .553 .931
2011: .290 .317 .416 .733
Abreu
Career: .293 .397 .481 .878
2011: .253 .353 .365 .717
Based on all the information wouldn’t you say that Vlad is a better offensive player than Abreu?
Also, I said a player with a high OBP using .375 as the example.
I am not the only saying that OBP is the only stat that matters either. However to think that getting on base is not important is foolish IMO.
Yes but look and see the BA tells the story not the OBP!
And I know you are not claiming OBP is the only thing to look for…Others here do think BA is an outdated and flawed stat!
All because they think OBP is the be all and end all of the baseball world!
Read it in a book! LOL
Last year is considered Vlad’s worst as a professional. Look at bis SLG. That proves a very empty .290 BA. He swung at everything and slapped a whole lot of singles.
Bobby Abreu looked like a lead off man. Not much else to say.
“What you fail to realize is if the guy has a high BA he also has a high OBP just because hitting ensures it!”
You know you directly contradicted this, right?
“having a high OBP does not mean the BA is good!
Not if the guy walks more than hits!”
Which means nothing, just that they measure things differently. Of course, since BA comes with the same limit as OBP (does not measure the quality of the positive outcome) and an extra limit of its own (it ignores a statistically significant positive outcome), BA is less informative than OBP.
I don’t even understand the Vlad point. He’s going to the HOF (probably) because of his career up until he was past his prime.
In his 1st 10 years in MLB he had an OBP of .390. Why he’s an example for people that want to downplay OBP is beyond me.
He was 36 years old last year, he’s not a HOF potential because of his 2011 season….
bayonne, the ability to hit and the abilily to get on base are basically measures of the same thing, the ability judge pitches to swing at.
again, a low OBP guy with lots of RBI is not a good hitter. he is ruining the team because he is getting lots of AB with runners on but making way too many outs. show me a team RBI leader with a low obp and i will show you a team that isnt gonna make the playoffs.
sorry Martin the ability to hit is about putting the bat on the ball and the swing mechanics to impart force onto it in the most efficient way! Judging the pitch is a small part of it!
And please explain how your ability to judge a pitch has anything to do with getting hit by one or being intentionally walked which are both counted as OBs despite the fact no skill by the batter was required!
The inability to judge a pitch is what turns most prospects into organization guys or helps get them started in another career.
Years ago the Mets had a guy named Rob Straton. Decent OFer and a monster at the plate. 200 lifetime HR’s in the minors and a career .510 SLG. Washed out cause he couldn’t recognize pitches and struck out an extraordinary 1200 times while walking just 300 in 11 minor league seasons.
Including pitchers every team has about 250 guys that play at one level or another. Everyone within varying degrees good enough to be in an organizations system at any level has already been the best hitter by far on most teams he’s played on if not the best in the league, county or maybe even the state. One thing about these 125 or so hitters from the DSL up to the Major Leagues is they can hit. The difference between those who make it and especially those who make it big is their understanding of what to hit, and what not to try to hit.
That’s what makes the distinction. Old as Ted Williams saying “I learned right away not to swing at stuff I couldn’t do anything with.”
Ted Williams by the way .344 lifetime, .482 OBP. (+.138)
Right, being patient at the plate puts a lot of stress on the pitcher to be more fine and more likely to make a mistake. The good hitters have a lot of walks for a reason.
If you can’t hit it judging the pitch isn’t going to help!
Knwoing where the pitch is going is only a small part of actually hitting the ball where they ain’t!
Hitting is about hand eye coordination!
And TRS if the Pitcher throws a ball your not really putting pressure on him as a batter he is putting the pressure on himself!
having a good eye just makes sure that any pressure he puts on himself is taken advantage of!
Exactly TRS.
If a pitcher could roll the ball underneath the plate and get a batter to swing at it he would. If the batters patience and selectivity forces the pitcher to bring it in and then takes advantageous, well then that is a fine piece of hitting. Were he to do that consistently then he’s a fine hitter.
Were he not to do be able to do that then he’s Mike Jacobs.
Patience and selectivity is the most difficult part of hitting to master among the 125 or so position playing prospects in a teams system who have all demonstrated the ability to hit and hit well at every level up to the one their currently in or they wouldn’t be there in the first place.
Of course there are outliers on both sides of normal. But there aren’t many guys like Castillo (won’t swing at anything even right down the pipe) and a Bonds (wouldn’t swing at something 1″ off).
the majority (as supported by stats) are guys that have varying success at not swinging at stuff they can’t handle. As per that William’s quote, your success rate goes way down as pitches get less hittable.
And no one that supports OBP as valuable is saying be passive, try to walk, etc (that was Castillo. he was useless)> And guys that try normally disappear quickly.
rather, they are saying to be selective, don’t swing at pitcher’s pitches, don’t get yourself out on crap. But when a pitcher makes a mistake or has to come into the strikezone, then you tee off on him.
and the best way to get a hitter’s pitch? Don’t swing at the crap early and dig yourself into a hole.
so really the idea is to let the pitcher dig themselves into the hole. Unless you like seeing a batter flail at sliders in the dirt?
and of course if there are say men on 2nd and 3rd 2 outs, you want the batter looking to get a hit. But not by fishing on crap that he has next to no chance at driving for a hit. Though they might go after a pitch a little out of the zone if they think they can drive it.
Well Tag if the pitcher brings it and you swing like crap all the eye in the world isn’t going to make it a successful at bat!
I think you are ignoring the MAJOR COMPONENT of hitting in favor of the trivial part that helps the major component work!
You still think the batter can force a pticher to do something but it’s really the pitcher who calls the shots!
He decides where to throw and if you can’t hit the ball where he pitches it all the eye in the world is not going to get you a hit!
Patence at the plate doesn’t matter if you can’t hit the ball when you know where it’s going!
But the point is Metsie that the major component is already there, perhaps not honed to a Major League level but the swing mechanics are there otherwise the prospect/player wouldn’t.
That’s a given. Remember we’re talking about the absolute best 1500-3000 baseball players in the world. They didn’t get there because they couldn’t hit, they got there because they could hit better than anyone else on their team, league, county or state.
Take a look at Jose Bautista up through 2009. What changed? His approach, that’s what. All through the minors and Majors up to that point he struck out 2-1 vs. his walks. Did pitchers all of a sudden say to themselves “I’ll bet Bautista is going to go on a HR tear so I’m just going to walk him?”
No of course not. He simply stopped swinging at what they wanted him to swing at. Since that time he’s walked more than he’s struck out and his BA, OB and HR’s have skyrocketed. Why? Cause he made Major league pitchers bring the ball to him and if they didn’t he took his walks. The walks were just a byproduct of his approach but were the key to getting him the pitches he hit all those HR’s on.
So now your using an assumption to support another assumption!
I ASSUME he can hit because he is in the MLB and therefore I can ASSUME if he walks more he is a BETTER hitter than a guy who doesn’t walk as much but hits for a better average!
Not assuming anything and my comments are more geared toward the minor leaguer. Your assuming that proponents of selective hitting approaches are advocating for hitters to walk. I’m saying your wrong.
As Stick points out it’s about waiting for a pitch you can do something meaningful with. Being the kind of hitter that makes pitchers sweat because they know your not an easy out. They know they have to give you more than just the illusion of a strike, they have to risk giving you three strikes which means you have 3 chances to get your pitch. some guys never get one and with good reason, the pitcher can dispatch them without risking bringing it in.
Every single corner positioning prospect has already demonstrated hitting prowess before he even became a professional and many of the up the middle guys have too. Some may be more tools than skills or more projectability than an established proven track record of success but all have shown the ability to hit. What causes prospect attrition far more than anything else is not being able to control the zone. Not being able to “get their pitch” because again if a pitcher could get a guy out by never throwing a strike, why would he?
Sure you ae! Your Assuming 80% of that OBP is hitting ability but We all know thats hardly true!
As for “waiting for a pitch you can do something meaningful with”
If you get it and can’t do anything meaningful with it what good is the wait?
If you can’t hit it, waiting for the perfect pitch to hit isn’t going to help until you know how to hit it!
Can a guy with no arms increase his BA by waiting for the right pitch?
No? Then all that your talking about is only secondary isn’t it?
Metsie why don’t you give us your explanation of Bautista’s turn around.
simple answer metsie. If you are able to work to a hitters count, and the pitcher throws you a fat pitch, and you still can’t hit it then you will be out of professional BB relatively quickly.
But, not as quickly as if you hack and miss at everything, and never even get a shot at the fat pitch!
actually, just thought of something. Some broadcasts will overlay a grid over a batter showing red/green areas (and BA in the different zones). And as expected, BA is way higher in the “fat” zones, and low on the edges (down and away vs. middle in say).
well, that represents the difference between what you get to hit down 0-2 vs. being up 2-0.
Easy! He doubled the hits he got last year!
Yep they will be OUT of Baseball stick unless you don’t look at his BA and just his OBP which means you have no clue what he hit!
Which is what is being proposed here!
Will a guy with a .350 OBP be out of baseball if he only hits .220?
And I hate to breakit to you but if you can’t hit you can’t work into a hitters count because the Pitcher just throws strikes at you that you can do nothing with!
Wow, if I did not look at you as a wounded soldier that already lost his pointless battle I would be offended.
So if Wright and Davis are on base then Duda will have people to drive in. Is that a correct statement or not?
Dodge the question.
Also, how about the one below. A good hitter with a low OBP.
And if he walks will he drive them in?
NO!
So whats more important in that scenario to driving them in? OBP or the BA?
Himself?
Look at the stats you posted about Thomas!
Nearly a third of his RBI’s are him!
Sure you can get 150 RBI with guys on base ahead of you but if you hit 40 HRs, your almost halfway to 100 RBI without anyone on base at all!
The guy who gets the RBI is doing the majority of the work!
His contribution makes the lesser contribution of those ahead of him better not the other way around!
Exactly Metsie,
The LAST ACTION tells the story. It’s about CLOSING THE DEAL and not the “worker bee”
If Mets fans by now can’t learn that what’s caused most of their distress in recent times is the LACK of ability to get hits when you need them the most REGARDLESS OF WHO’S ON BASE the you know what? You need to lose more in order to learn your lesson.
It’s all about the last action and being able to close the deal. The Deal Closers make the world go round.
The worker bees are just doing what they’re supposed to do. That’s how the game works
The guy who gets the RBI is doing the majority of the work!”
unless there’s a JOSE REYES in the top of the lineup…
in 2008 David Wright hit 243 with RISP yet he drove in 124 runs, Beltran and Reyes scored over 100 runs each…
in 2009 David wright had 72 Rbi’s during the season… NO reyes at the top..
Exactly, Alex. OBP in front of power will always result in more runs scored, even if the “power” doesn’t have a particularly great season. It’s always easier for the producer to drive in runs with guys on base then without.
That’s why RBI aren’t a useful tool to describe a player’s talent. It’s nice to see because that means lots of runs are scoring, but what does 124 RBI say about Wright? It says that Reyes and Beltran were in scoring position a ton.
‘Just keep the line moving, boys’ should be the battle cry.
Agreed which means at times OBP matters. Ryan Howard is a perfect example of inflated RBI totals.
Still Alex you can’t say the guy on base made the guy hit the ball better!
You can’t say the HR was any BETTER of a HR or Cleared the fence BECAUSE the guy was on base!
The HR was a HR the runner on didn’t make it a HR the HR made the guy’s on base contribution BETTER not the other way around!
If no HR is hit that guy doesn’t score!
If the batter stikes out what did the Guy on base accomplish or contribute?
NOTHING! Just another LOB!
Getting on only contributes to the team if the guy after him contributes the RBI that scores him otherwise it’s just an OB that had no contribution to the score whatsoever!
Metsie, if a guy who is a base stealing threat is on first it affects the pitcher ability to pitch because he also have to have the runner in the back of his mind thinking at any moment this guy might take off, also, the catcher might call fastballs in order to get the ball quicker to the plate, leaving all the advantage to the hitter… come on man, you should know this, the CORE? remember?
RE Reyes, Reyes can make the requirements for getting an RBI easier but it still doesn’t help the guy to get the hit that scores him!
And has no contribution whatsoever if the guy jacks one out!
Doesn’t make the guy hit a better hit in any way shape or form!
Uh… I am not saying the other guys were more important than Thomas. He was incredible. I am saying that you can’t judge the success of his season on just RBI and HR as RBI especially is very dependent on the guys around you.
I know TRS I’m just pointing out that Thomas would have had 100 RBI even if he had only half the guys on base he had that year!
He made those guys on base contributors not the other way around!
He was contributing 47 RBI even if no one was on!
It’s the RBI that makes the OB contribute not the OB that makes the RBI contribute because the guy on base didn’t do anything to make the batter get a hit or a HR!
oh no, you most certainly CAN determine the success of a guy like Gorman Thomas season on HR & RBI
Don’t give me this garbage of well if the other guys didn’t get on ….blah blah blah. THAT’S BASEBALL AND THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO DO.
That’s like diminishing the importance of scoring a game winning basket, game winning TD, game winning goal and giving the credit to the guys who set it up. Every smart sports person knows about those things and acknowleges those things. But you don’t enjoy the game BECAUSE OF IT. You enjoy the game and you WIN the game because of the last action – not what leads up to it. That’s not how success works.
You want to talk just HR and RBIs? IF Jason Bay had 25 & 30 HRs and 95 & 100 RBIs his last 2 seasons – that is all i would need to know to be able to know that his seasons have been good and that the Mets won more games.
Not is OBP. STOP THE WORKER BEE MENTALITY!
My God, for a person who has been a Mets fan for years and to have experienced their lack of clutch preventing them from getting into the playoffs you would THINK you would learn your lesson. Guess not. Hello more losing
Frank not Gorman.
Duh, Duda himself. He just has to hit 100+ Home runs.
No he just has to hit 40 so that all those guys who didn’t accomplish anything but get on base can be called MEANINGFUL contributors!
If Duda doesn’t drive them in then they are worthless OBs
If Duda doesn’t do his job, you don’t blame them. If they don’t do their job, you don’t blame Duda. RBIs are a team effort in most cases. That is why they are a bad measure of a hitter’s prowess.
Look at his individual contributions. OBP, HR and some way to measure his over all power.
So I’m the slime? Thanks for clarifying. You didn’t respond the other day. I’ll have my business cards ready within the week.
In this instance I will note that he asked for it X!
Bayonne – If not for this line:
“Nice try trying to put words in my mouth in your usual slimy way. But that’s what you are and that’s how you operate.”
You had a good post….Too bad you ruined it!
I have to say in this case you started the Slime talk, Please don’t give them the in!
you’re right,
I just hate these people so much it’s hard to resist. It’s how I honestly feel. I despise them.
But…”i’m working on it” !!
But Jed, hate is such a harsh word. Shouldn’t you save that for the Indians and Yanks?
indians? you mean the braves?? Phillies??? although, there’s some b***** in this site who pretend to be mets fans and root HARDCORE for the braves, to the point that after they had their CHOKE job last season, they were mourning like they lost a family member and went away for like 3 or 4 days!!!
LOL…I think the reference to ‘Indians’ and ‘Yanks’ went right over your head, Alex.
Don’t think he was referring to baseball teams…..
Yeah, LOL. I guess I am showing my age and humor.
Alex, again you are better than that. That person not commented in weeks, why call him out? Also, we have already discussed how many could take it that you are going to root for the Marlins and have contemplated rooting against anyone Sandy brings in. Doesn’t that sound hypocritical?
That person not commented in weeks, why call him out?”
guess you didn’t read his Ryan Braun is innocent comment the other day, we despise each other, there’s no denying that, and again, just because i picked the MARLINS to win the WS doesn’t mean i am rooting for them, it means i think they have the best baseball team at the end of the year, also, i haved liked many players during my years of watching baseball, Loved George brett yet noone said anything, now that i root for HanRam and Reyes all of the sudden i am a marlin fan? if they choke you think i’d disappear from the site and mourn? hell no, i could care less if they win or lose, but that is my prediction, but of course, since is me i am rooting for the marlins, wait and see MMO predictions to see WHO everyone is picking to be the WS champion, then see if you and everyone else called them out too..
Alex, did not read the comment section back when this commenter was “rooting” for the Braves. I am just saying that based on your comments some could imply that you are rooting for the Marlins and want the players Sandy has signed to fail. Just because they imply that does not make it true.
It’s like the dumb debate of “real fans do this and real fans do that”
Wor of advice, if you do not know the history don’t get involved. and i was talking about the MMO staff’s take on ryan braun…
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/02/mmo-staffers-weigh-in-on-braun-issue.html
and BTW, this was updated, the comments seem to have been alter..
LMAO, dammit, thanks SRT, thanks…
Sadly, I think I got it right off b/c I’m showing my age as well…….
Srt, i am old but i don’t have the same POV’s as TRS86… guess he watched more news then and now that i do..
LOL, that was not from the news. It was from the Beverly Hillbillies.
There is no one here rooting for the Braves. at least, no one openly the way you are rooting for the Marlins.
Just say your baseball and don’t mention them!
That will be the best punishment you can deal them!
Cause they will have to respond with baseball, burn an hour or two coming up with manipulated stats and can’t do what they want to, just insult you till you explode!
High on base percentage=losing? Wow! Unreal!
Lets see if we can have a challenge here. Lets find a guy with 30+ HR and 100+ RBI with a bad OBP.
Now lets find a guy with an OBP over .375 who is a bad hitter.
These things go so hand in hand yet for some reason OBP is evil. It’s just another tool in the box.
Our RBI leader had 67 last year and we scored the most runs in the NL East. Hmmm,I wonder why. Could it be because we led the division in OB%? 2nd in the NL in OB and 6th in runs scored without one guy driving in more than 67 runs. St.Louis 1st in OB% and 1st in runs scored in the NL and Yanks 1st in OB% and 1st in runs scored in the NL. Case closed.
This.
again, too much emphasys on OBP, Pitching & defense should always comes first…
They are not mutually exclusive. And this conversation was about offense.
That’s fair. But when discussing offense, OBP is the prime component.
No,
Being able to hit is the prime component. If you can’t hit you can’t play major league baseball
The rest of the stupid stuff? That’s what you learn when you are learning the game as a 7 and 8 year old.
All this philosophy does is take away the learned aggressiveness the pro hitter has gained and replaces it with a more passive approach. It’s a philosophy that takes you backwards.
I don’t know why you refuse to acknowledge an absolute truth, but OBP includes hits and the same things that make up AVG. OBP just includes more to give a truer, more informed idea. It’s not an accident that the higher OBP scores the most runs in infinitely more instances than AVG does.
no because you’re gonna look at a .240 hitter and fall in love with his .340 OBP.
The truth is he’s a .240 hitter.
A 210 hitter is a .210 hitter – maybe that .210 hitter may have a good eye and have one great year and walk 100 times while hitting 35 HRs and drove in 90 RBIs.
He’s still a .210 hitter – good thing he was able to drive in a lot of runs cuz that’s what wins games.
People who look at OBP over-value an average hitter. Batting AVG is still most important. That’s where it starts.
no because you’re gonna look at a .240 hitter and fall in love with his .340 OBP”
Bayonne, that sounds like andres torres… the guy who many here seem to defend and not seeing him for what he is..
right,
I always noticed that whenever they posted those numbers together the higher number (OBP) always gave the false impression that the hitter is better than he actually is.
a guy can have 37 ABs hitting .109 but the OBP will always be a higher number – and it misleads you. Obviously with guys like Darrel Porter back in the day, good hitters who walked a lot, you always noticed it but it doesn’t change the fact that the guy is a .270 hitter or it doesn’t change the fact that the guy is a .220 hitter. The higher number misleads you and if you make that your prime focus you are GOING…TO….LOSE.
Find a bad hitter with a high OBP.
Also don’t you think it’s relative to the spot they hit in the order? As I said earlier I am not as concerned with my #6 hitters OBP as long as the guys in front of him are getting on base.
Should I be more concerned with a lead-off hitters RBI or OBP?
well i’m not gonna answer a STUPID question if you are too lazy to realize your own common sense.
Indulge me. More important for a lead-off hitter, RBI or OBP?
Gorman Thomas was a hitter who would have a low BA and VG OBP – relative to him.
But he was a HR/RBI guy.
That’s what paid his bills and he also was a big contributor to 1982 Brewers.
So he was a good hitter with a low OBP? His best years his OBP was almost 100 points higher than his BA. Whose side of the coin are you trying to prove?
More important for a lead-off hitter….
BA because with a high BA the OBP will follow and will at the same time drive in runs from the guys left OB from the back end of the order!
The High BA will also cause the pitcher to tread carefully and cause more walks in the proccess ALSO increasing OBP from even higher than the BA made it from the start!
“His best years his OBP was almost 100 points higher than his BA”
But that just shows that 3/4′s of his OBP was BA driven!
When judging who to get isn’t it better to look at what he himself is capable of as opposed to what he was given by a pitcher?
Cause what the pitcher gave him can go away the second the Pitcher stops giving it to him!
As I noted Carlos Pena had a .225 BA and a .357 OBP!
If the pitcher just stops playing with him and throws strikes do you really believe he will start hitting .357?
Or will he more likely hit .269 (his BA calculating how many walks would turn to hits)
OBP is a good stat to show what and how the player did what he did!
But as a selector of who to get it is awful since it includes many things the batter didn’t earn and can’t reproduce without compliance by the Pitcher!
Saying a batter does not earn a walk would for sure fly in the face of Ted Williams and Frank Thomas. Just because you have great command of the strike zone as a hitter does not mean you did not earn the walk.
Also, focusing on just one stat when looking at a player would absolutely fly in the face of any true “saber” guy anyway who would most likely laugh at anyone using OBP to start with.
can youwalk if the pitcher only throws stikes?
What did you do to make a pitcher throw 4 balls?
What did you do to make a pitcher hit you with the baseball?
What did you do to make him throw 4 balls? Perhaps have a great eye, run the count full, (of course we are not even mentioning the effect of pitch count by working the count) then foul of 6 pitches and “work” a walk. That’s why they call it working a walk.
So your EYES made the pitcher miss the strike zone?
Or caused the ball to deviate from the strikezone to someplace else?
Is that what your saying?
Nope but they can allow me to only swing at pitches in the zone and then my skill can help me foul off the border line pitches and produce a situation that the pitcher in some cases may given in or make a mistake.
All well nd good that you can do all that but even if you can it can’t force the pitcher to throw you ball 4 can it?
You’ll just stay at the plate all day and do nothing until you either hit the ball (EARN IT) or wait until he gives you ball 4 to take!
And if he doesn’t you can’t walk!
All you can do is either EARN the base or Take if when he does finally give it to you!
Now as far as earning something you can say he earned something by recognizing a mistake!
But without the mistake he really didn’t do anything he sat there with the bat on his shoulder and his own personal talent wasn’t at play!
Nothing about HITTING was done to get the walk!
So you are honestly saying that guys like Ted William and Frank Thomas did not earn any of their walks? The pitcher just screwed up and it had nothing to do with the hitters skill set, patience or ability to work the count.
No I’m saying they didn’t earn the intentional ones and neither did they earn thier HBP!
Your the one lumping all walks into ONE category by your use of OBP which thinks both Intentional and Unintentional plus HBP are all equally earned by the batter!
So what percentage of OBP of Williams was earned?
Can you tell from the way OBP is calculated?
If not what good is it in judging the batter?
Is a guy who draws 100 unintentional walks a better batter than someone who drew 100 intentional walks? Or a guy who got hit 100 Times?
WHich one do you want and which one will OBP tell you is the correct one?
For the same reason you refuse to acknowledge that OBP is comprised of things that are NOT hits, Not earned by the batter and can’t score without RBI help!
Either in the form of a HR hit by someone (even the batter which is reflected in BA) or someone else getting a hit!
Hmm, can’t you get an RBI from other measures than hits? So RBI is also a compilation stat just as OBP is. Of course OBP measures more than just hits.
But there is a difference, You have to EARN the RBI you don’t really have to earn the OB!
How much did you accomplish when the pitcher hit you with the ball or walked you intentionally?
How much skill was needed to do those things?
Does an RBI have to be a Hit or an OB?
NOPE!
Sac Fly gets you an RBI and that RBI/out is still an accomplishment compared to what other scenarios would have produced!
The problem with OBP centrism is it is all based on a hatred of the OUT! As if all outs are equal! They aren’t! Neither are all hits and OBs equal!
Some OBs are earned (Hits and I’ll even give you non intentional walks for argument sake here) But not all!
ALL RBI are earned because they don’t give you one unless you actually earn it!
That OB can’t be an RS or an RBI unless the batter EARNS that by doing something that lets the OB score. Only exception is the Defense does something to let it score!
Still not an accomplishment of the OB but a failure of someone else!
Uh no you don’t have to earn the RBI any more than you have to earn the OBP. You can walk or get hit by a pitch to get an RBI. Did you earn those?
It AS earned as any OB given under the same circumstances isn’ it?
So in SOME cases it’s EQUAL to an OB but many many more it is more important isn’t it?
it’s never LESS than an OB though is it?
No it’s not the prime component it is just the least common denominator of what you can call any offense!
ALL offense is an OB!
Not all of it is related to MEANING FULL CONTRIBUTING offense!
Which is the only offense that actually counts towards winning!
A team could have an OBP of .499 and never score a run!
Single, followed by and Out, followed by a single, followed by an out followed by a single followed by an out!
OBP .500 RS ZERO!
Right and a team could have 5 RS with no RBI or 5 RS with no hits or 5 RS and only 1 RBI… LOL.
Well the problem is none of that is possible unless the Defense gives it to them!
Your not really EARNING the RS in those cases!
5RS with no RBI or hits requires quite a few errors though!
You going to pick players based on who they faced as opposed to what they CAN do?
Might as well flip a coin if your going to do that! LOL
Or you could have 10 RS, 10 RBI and 0 hits. I guess the batter would earn those RBI as well?
Show us the scoring for that inning and tell me which batter earned the RS?
The only way that scenario works if if the Defense gives it to them which means nither the OBP or the RBI is earned is it?
Can you guarantee that your going to get the same 10RS and RBI on 0 hits anything you want?
Of can you only do it if the defense lets you?
Sure, here’s your inning.
Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Walk, Grounded into triple play. The end. Idiot should have taken the walk.
Pretty sure I scored that inning a few times in the lower levels of little league(since I had an accountant’s eyeshade, they figured I was the best coach to keep the book!). Except the GITP involved 1 kid running around tagging 3 different runners.
TRS is any of the possible without the pitcher throwing those walks?
Can the guy who hit into the TP take a walk if all he got was three straight strikes thrown at him?
Easy to say I’m going to walk but you can’t actually do it unless the pitcher lets you either by design or failure!
Except that is not what happens. typically, teams with the higher OBPs score the most runs. Can there be occasionally goofy instances that defy that? Yes, but they are few and far between.
No Typically the teams with the higher RBI score the most runs and those Rbi’s drive their OBP up in the proccess!
I have showed you examples like Toronto and texas where they didn’t have higher OBP than 20 other teams yet scored more runs than teams with a higher OBP than them!
Why?
Because of those RBI’s!
You don’t understand the relationship between RBIs and runs. The runs create the RBIs. RBIs do not create runs. RBIs are the after thought. They credit the individual with the team’s effort.
No we unerstand it fully and have facts to prove that Lower OBP can beat higher OBP in regards to RS!
We even have data to back it up!
All you have is a thick headed insistenct reply Your WRONG and then stick your toung out as if thats proof!
TORONTO My Friend!
If what you say is true they can’t score more RS due to their afwul OBP than someone with higher!
BUT THEY DID!
“No we unerstand it fully and have facts to prove that Lower OBP can beat higher OBP in regards to RS!”
No, lower OBP did not lead to more runs. A freak of nature with almost 100 HR and a crazy high individual OBP lead the team with a low team OBP to score a lot of runs.
“We even have data to back it up!”
You have 1 team in the face of several dozen.
“All you have is a thick headed insistenct reply Your WRONG and then stick your toung out as if thats proof!”
No, I have pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. All you have is a lot of shouting and empty declarations of victory.
“TORONTO My Friend!
If what you say is true they can’t score more RS due to their afwul OBP than someone with higher!
BUT THEY DID!”
Yes, they are an outlier that can be explained by The Batista.
Yes LOWER OBP DID score more runs!
Denying is not an argument!
I showed you example!
You can come up with any damn lame excuse you want but the fact remains HIGH OBP scored LESS than LOW OBP!
But when discussing offense, OBP is the prime component”
ONCE AGAIN, WRONNNGGGG!!!!! Batting average, HR and RBI’s are the 3 most important component, then is run scored THEN is OBP… who has more value, luis castillo or chase utley? Castillo has better OBP than utley, but guess who’s more valuable based on his BA, HR and RBI’s?!
RBI is a byproduct, not a component. OBP, HR, and some over all measure of power like SLG or wOBA are the components of good hitters. They tell what each individual contributes towards his team scoring runs.
RBI and RS are byproducts that credit the individual with what is mostly a team accomplishment.
Yeah what is it the byproduct of in the case of the HR?
What part of the OB made that HR happen and RBI awarded?
An RBI is the byproduct of getting the HIT!
The HIT happened regardless of someone was on base or not!
If the hit happens with no one on base and an RBI is awarded the RBI is the product of the HIT not the runner!
Can you get an RBI without getting a hit?
TRS86. yes you can.. Sac fly, and a ground out to 2B with less than 2 outs and Reyes on third
Or a walk or a HBP.
Thus RBI is a compilation stat just like OBP.
Yes but not all OBP leads to an RS, RBI does!
Sure you can!
Can an OB score without an RBI?
Only if the defense lets it!
Or the OB is a HR!
You say that OB is not a good measure because you don’t have to earn every OB because a walk is given and not earned. However all RBI are earned. What about RBI’s earned from walks, HBP?
No TRS…maybe I was unclear!
The RBI causes the run to score. Without the RBI in those situations there is no run!
OB does not guarantee a run scored therefore is not important in quanta or percentage to your RS!
I never claimed all RBI are earned but without them the RS can’t happen unless the defense gives it to you which a HBP and BBRBI is essentially in those cases!
On a TEAM standpoint having more OB doesn’t mean more RS!
Having more RBI does though!
“ALL RBI are earned because they don’t give you one unless you actually earn it!”
Was that not you?
Or here:
“But there is a difference, You have to EARN the RBI you don’t really have to earn the OB!”
When was the last time someone INTENTIONALLY walked in a run?
You keep forgetting all walks aren’t equal as well!
But OBP says they are! Doesn’t matter if your EARNED it or were given it!
With the RBI you might not earn it on TWO instances!
An intetional walk that never happens
or a HBP which happens once in a blue moon!
Are all RBI earned by the batter? Yes or no?
Otherwise it too is yet another flawed stat. LOL. All stats are flawed and relying on only one stat in any case is a bad idea. The premise here is still that hitters that get on base more often are 99% of the time better than those who do not. Just as in your situation 99% of the time a batter earns an RBI. Me proving the exception does not change anymore than you proving the exception using Toronto.
Whoever said RBI is a PERFECT stat?
All we said is it’s better at driving RS than OBP is!
You guys think getting on base drives in more runs!
It doesn’t! teams who get on base less score more runs than teams that get on base more!
But what do they all have in common when they are high in RS?
HIGH RBI!
Thats all anyone is saying!
RBI is a better indicator of who will score more runs than OBP or OB Count is!
Yankees had more guys on base and scored less runs than Boston…WHY?
RBI!
Well then as a team shouldn’t we be just looking at their runs scored? 100% of the time the team that scored the most runs lead the league in RS. There. LOL. Of course RBI is going to be more closely correlated with RS than OBP. However, OBP is going to be more closely correlated to RS than BA or HR.
Yet if I was looking for a player and could only use one stat (which I should be fired if I did) and the only two I could pick from were RBI and OBP then I would look at OBP. There are plenty of hitters over baseball history that are not good players and have high RBI counts due to the people around them. OBP is much more player independent than RBI. It is much harder for a player to have a high OBP due to the people around him.
Or the batter steals home.
Yeah how often does that happen Fonzie?
Oh TRS have you looked?
the team with the most RBI scores the most runs 100% of the time to!
In fact even when the team that does NOT get on base the most leads the RS race it’s because of thier RBI!
Do the research!
I did!
Do the rankings of the OBP, RBI and RS over the last 5 years and tell me which correlates better OBP or RBI!
“And having someone one base doesnt’t make it easier to get a hit that can drive that run in!”
No, it is a byproduct of the run scoring. It is the after thought.
“The HIT happened regardless of someone was on base or not!”
Nifty, we’re talking about scoring runs.
“If the hit happens with no one on base and an RBI is awarded the RBI is the product of the HIT not the runner!”
No, the RBI is the after thought of the run scoring. You win by scoring more runs than your opponent, not by awarding more RBIs. RBIs are just a way of defining the runs for the purposes of getting the hitter more money.
Saying RBIs leads to runs scoring is like saying alimony leads to divorce.
Ahhh so your saying the HIT is a byproduct of the run scoring!
I don’t even think I need to comment on that!
Hey, Vinny B, this right here is spin. But you won’t say anything about it.
I said the RBI is a byproduct of the run. The hit is a component that leads to the run.
u have it backwards buddy – OBP is a by-product of a hitter’s talent.
If there was EVER a stat that was a by product it’s OBP.
The LAST action is what matters. RBI guys close the deal. IT doesn’t matter if the bases are loaded with 3 Al Leiters..what is going to win the games is the big hit in the big spot.
The OBP is the by product of talent, not the RBI.
The RBI pays the bills, gets you the big contracts and gets you into the playoffs. They also don’t make movies about guys and their OBPs but they make movies about great hitters who win championships with big hits. That’s their talent.
Actually they do make movies about high OBP and I am willing to bet it’s your favorite.
They lose at the end of that movie if I’m not mistaken! LOL
“u have it backwards buddy – OBP is a by-product of a hitter’s talent.”
No, it is a measure of the hitter’s talent. Unless you are going to say the same thing about counting Home Runs.
“The LAST action is what matters. RBI guys close the deal. IT doesn’t matter if the bases are loaded with 3 Al Leiters..what is going to win the games is the big hit in the big spot.”
How big is that hit if there is no one on base? The RBI guys make money off the team efforts.
“The OBP is the by product of talent, not the RBI. ”
I agree, RBIs should be in no way associated with talent.
“The RBI pays the bills, gets you the big contracts”
So what? None of that has to do with winning. That is all about paying one guy for the team’s work. RBIs are a lousy way of measuring a hitter’s prowess.
I prefer not to let marketing execs tell me who the best hitters are.
“and gets you into the playoffs.”
No, scoring more runs than your opponents does that. RBIs are the after thought of runs that have already scored. They do not lead to runs. at all.
“They also don’t make movies about guys and their OBPs”
So what? They don’t make war movies about maintaining logistical lines but that has been indispensable to armies for centuries.
What Hollywood can glamorize is irrelevant to what leads to scoring more runs.
“but they make movies about great hitters who win championships with big hits. That’s their talent.”
Yes, home runs sell tickets. But, not everyone is a home run hitter.
Madison Avenue ad execs and Hollywood producers are not trying to give us insight to proper baseball. they are showing us flashy things that will appeal to our base instincts.
this is the perfect type of reply by this LOSER that has nothing to do with honesty and everything to do with typing and working with words.
This type of answer would not fly in real life. When I respond i respond with what i have to say the way i would say it in real life.
Of course he’s going to come back with another internet-based response that has nothing to do with real life.
Hurry Bay, back to the mansion the indgins are comin the indgins are comin. Get yure shotgun Granny. This war ain’t over as long as I got shells. .
Bayonne, please don’t ever take a break from this site again. I just don’t get to laugh when your gone. Thank YOU for your comedic entertainment. ( I capitalized a word for you so you know I’m serious!!)
Seriously, what the hell does this rant even mean?
You go on some bizarre want about paying bills and what happens in movies and I deconstruct the fallacies that make up your arguments.
Don’t get mad at the guy trying to clean up the mess when you go off the rails.
How much talent must you have to get hit by a pitch pray tell?
Pretty much someone who is brain dead with one leg and one arm to hold the bat can accompish being hit by a pitch!
You call that talent?
Yet you can still get an RBI which means by your definition not all RBI are earned. Thus RBI is a compilation stat of different ways to force a runner home.
An RBI earns as much if not more than an plain OB in that instance!
You going to say an OB that doesn’t score a run is more valuable than an OB that does?
If your going to give credit to the batter for things the defense does doesn’t scoring a run mean more than just getting OB and not scoring one?
At least the RBI was made in a situation that scored a run!
OBP doesn’t tell you ANY run scored!
Maybe NONE of them scored!
Not true with RBI!
In the case of the RBI the Batter caused the runner to score by accepting the same thing the OB guy got but didn’t score one!
RBI is OB+!
OK I see your problem here…
Your confusing getting a walk with OB!
Does the batter gets some credit for drawing a walk?
Yes! Does he get more credit under OBP for that then he does for an Intentional or a HBP?
NO!
Does a better ever get walked intentionally with the bases loaded? NO!
So in the case of the RBIvBB he sort of earns the RBI!
Does a batter EARN the intentional BB that leads to an RBI?
HARDLY and it would never happen anyway!
SO basically if you get OB and an RBI YES it’s better than an OB that scores no runs and the batter EARNS the RBI except in the few cases of HBP where he doesn’t really earn it he is GIVEN that RBI by the defense!
Some guys like Chase Utley,Don Baylor,Craig Biggio made an art form outta getting hit by pitches on purpose and got away with it. So yes sometimes HBP are an accomplishment of the batter.
And people ridicule Bayonne for what he says!
If they MAKE the pitcher hit them it’s a STRIKE!
They have to get out of the way and if they don’t they don’t get an OB!
SO o there is not ART or SKILL to gettig hit by a pitch, it has to be a bad pitch from the get go!
Utley’s career OB% is better than Castillo’s.
T agee, Castillo’s 8 full season’s OBP was at 381 utley’s at 380…
I got’ em at .368 to .377 over their entire careers, to date Alex.
Another thing you bring up is being too far to the end of one side. Yes, having a high OBP with next to no power, especially if you can’t run anymore like Castillo, is a bad thing. Much like having a ton of power but never reaching base is a bad thing.
There is a happy medium between Luis Castillo and Steve Balboni.
Uh, in terms of the team itself RS are much more important that RBI. You can actually have more RS than RBI and ultimately isn’t the most important thing on offense runs crossing the plate? LOL.
Yes they are more impotant but you don’t get them very often without RBI!
Take a look at what percentage of OB scores.
Then take a look at what percentage of RS is made via RBI!
No one is saying RBI is more important than RS all we are saying is RBI is more important to RS than OB is!
RS is driven not so much by the count of guys who get on but the count of guys who got up AFTER those guys were on and did something to score them!
If the guys after the OB don’t drive them in they do not score!
Also why is HR more of a component that RBI or RS? A team can lead the league in RS and RBI and be at the bottom in HR.
It’s not….
a team can lead the league in RS and RBI and not hit a lot of HRs…
But they can’t lead the league in RS without also having a high RBI!
They can lead the league in RS with a low OBP provided they have that HIGH RBI!
OBP depiste the common myth about it’s value in RS doesn’t seem to matter how you rank in RS!
But where you rank in RBI almost ALWAYS does even in cases where the OBP isn’t there!
A HR can get you those RBI without the corresponding OBP which is wherre it is relevant in the conversation of RS and RBI vs OBP
Actually I would think that we all would agree that runs scored and runs allowed are ultimately the most important stats other than wins and losses. Thus getting on base, driving players in, playing good defense and pitching well are all important components.
yes no argument that RS and RA are more important. But out of the acts you mentioned on the RS side….
Which is MORE important? Getting on base or driving them in?
Do you need someone on base to drive in a run?
Not in the case of the HR!
And having someone one base doesnt’t make it easier to get a hit that can drive that run in!
And OB is a partial contribution that by itself can’t drive the offense! Without the RBI and hit that follows it is not an offensive contributor!
Which makes the driving of the run in more important than the OB!
Because the act of driving in the OB also adds to the OPB and itself can be improved to an RS either by the batter himself or the batter that follows him!
OB without the RBI that follows is useless!
Adds nothing to the RS!
“And having someone one base doesnt’t make it easier to get a hit that can drive that run in!”
It certainly does. I don’t know too many guys who can drive in the on deck batter. Generally, you drive in the runners already on.
Or yourself…you keep forgetting that little point!
Convenient memory loss or Alzheimers?
“And having someone one base doesnt’t make it easier to get a hit that can drive that run in!”
I guess that completely takes away the clutch argument or the pressure on the pitcher when players are on base.
Now back to what you are saying to me it’s like the chicken or the egg argument at times. Of course you do not need to have a guy on base to drive in a run. However, the more runners you have on base in MOST cases the more runs you will score. Also as you said, a HR still adds to your OBP total.
Nope because clutch isn’t really dependent on who is on base!
There are clutch HRs with no one on as well!
I have showed time and time again that having more runners does NOT mean you will score more runs than someone else with fewer!
Rank the guys in the top 10 of OBP, top 10 in RBI and then compare to the rankings of the top 10 in RS
Tell me how Toronto managed to be 6th in RS when 17 teams had more guys on base than they did!
Tell us why the mets with the 6th best OBP only wound up 12th in the league in RS?
Who led the league in RS The Yankees with 627 BBs and only 1432 hits 836 RBI 2268 OB (not including HBP)
Or Boston who had 578 BBs, 1600 Hits and 842 RBI 2178 OB (not including HBP too lazy to look it up actually check me if it makes a dif!)?
yankees had 90 more OB but 8 less RS!
Is more OB really better as far as RS is concerned?
Clutch applies to the pitcher as well. You mean that a pitcher does not care if runners are on base and pitches the same regardless?
If you’re talking about Beltran yeah our RBI leader had 67 but would have had MORE if he was still on the team.
Again it’s relative and that’s what you’re leaving out. Also if Ike Davis does not get hurt you BEST BELIEVE that the Mets RBI leader would have had about 100 and the Mets would have had a lot more wins and maybe even been relative in Aug & Sept.
How about filling us in on the real story instead of the story that best suits your STUPID belief. And as a Mets fan for many years like YOU allegedly are supposed to be – if you have not learned your lesson about the importance of driving in runs when they matter the most then you need a few more years of losing i guess. Than maybe you”ll understand.
The point was they scored a lot of runs without having a guy with a lot of RBI’s. Obviously Beltran would’ve had more. He ended up with about 84.
We were 7th in the NL in RBI as a team! 2nd in RBI in the NL East!
We were 6th in the NL in RS! 1st in the NL East 5 runs ahead of the Phillies!
We were 2nd in OBP!
If what you say is true why weren’t we second in RS for the NL?
Mil – 693 RBI 5th in RS
Col – 697 RBI 3rd in RS
Cin – 697 RBI 2nd in RS
Ari – 702 RBI 4th in RS
StL – 726 RBI 1st in RS
All had more RBI than us All but cards had lower OBP than us All had more RS than us!
Yep OBP sure does correlate doesn’t it? ROFLMAO!
See the toronto Blue Jays!
13th in OBP 6th in RS. Why? That 7th in RBI!
“13th in OBP 6th in RS. Why? That 7th in RBI!”
43 HR in the middle of their line probably helped. Again, finding one team every other year that defies the trend does not make the observation invalid. It just makes that lone example interesting. Look at all the other teams and notice how their place in runs scored is close to the place in OBP.
Again, the RBIs did not create the runs. The runs created the RBIs. You have it backwards.
METSIE, the CORE salutes you, i was just looking to post the stats of runs scored, RBI’s and OBP for all teams… these people will not let that go..
Obviously because RBI and RS are the same stat awarded at the same time to the two principles involved in the run scoring.
Thy are the same stat Really?
So a runner on second who gets driven in gets an RS AND an RBI?
Or do different guys get it?
Is the latter then they are not the same stat!
One is the CAUSE of the RS the other is not!
Can a guy OB get the RBI after the fact of the OB?
NOPE!
Can a guy OB force the batter to score him?
NOPE!
So it’s not the guy OB who causes the RBI award because the RBI can be awared to the batter even if there was NO ONE on base!
Different stats and your attempt to make them the same has never worked before!
Until you show how the Ob gets the RBI at the same time he gets the RS your shit out of luck on that track!
“RBI and RS are the same stat awarded at the same time to the two principles”
Two principles, one if it is a HR with no one on.
Yes TRS and in the case of the HR (which also gets an OB awarded) is it the OB that makes the ball go over the fence that caused the RS, RBI, and OB or was it the batter who wasn’t on a base when he made his accomplishment?
X hides behind temporal incosistencies in how it is scored because he doesn’t want to admit that if not for what the guy did in the batters box no RS,RBI or OB is possible!
Did I say OB% and RS are in perfect order from top to bottom? No I didn’t. The highest OB% doesn’t always lead the league in RS but they’re usually among the leaders.Just like the teams with the lowest OB% is usually at the bottom of the league in runs scored. They were 2nd in OB and 6th in RS.That’s because they only had a league avg Slug% 391. They scored more runs than Philly but hit 45 less HR’s. You gave what 2 examples? Toronto hit 257 HR’s in 2010 and 264 Doubles. They led in Slug and 3rd in OPS. OPS is far more important than BA.
Yeah unfortunatly the higher OBP are not AS USUALLY among the top RSers as USUALLY the top RBI guys are!
Your correlation is broke!
Becuase something else correlates BETTER!
That makes absolutely no sense but I’m not surprised at all.
High on base percentage=losing? Wow! Unreal!”
Well, The mets as a team were what?? top 5 last year in OBP, yet, they ended up with a LOSING RECORD, therefore making bayonne statement a reality!!
But surely that was not because we couldn’t score runs. It was because our pitching was god awful.
Yup. Scoring a lot of runs isn’t going to help if our pitchers are giving up more runs then we’re scoring.
If you can’t out hit the opposition, you have to out pitch them.
They also scored the most runs in the division. By your logic, scoring a lot of runs leads to losing.
Or perhaps, baseball is a multifaceted game that requires you to be productive in several categories. For instance, if your offense scores the most runs in the division, it may not be able to overcome the fact that your defense gave up the most runs in the division. By a lot.
Uh yeah, this.
It’s funny……..we’re all dumb followers, but you were born into this idea that BA and RBI were great because some cricket expert invented it at the turn of the century and never once challenged it with rational thought. But we’re the followers. Kind of ironic, isn’t it?
Mets led the NL in BA in 2009. How’d that work out in terms of runs scored?
All their power hitters AND their backups were hurt that year so you’re gonna get that type of production. It’s relative buddy.
Learn a little something about the game for once.
Injuries and all they still led the NL in BA but couldn’t score runs,which shows that BA is not the most important thing as you say it is. You’re lost. Silly,stupid OB% which you said the other day shows who needs to learn a thing or two about the game.
No, you’re lost. That’s what happens when your team is full of Luis Castillo & Luis Hernandez type hitters
The power hitters were not there to drive them in. If their normal hitters are there you would have seen more normal numbers but that wasn’t the case. Try using your brain man.
Bingo! They didn’t hit for power. They led the league in BA but their slug% sucked 11th in the league and their OB% was league avg. OPS was 12th and runs score 12th but they lead the league in BA. Which shows my point to another stat you hate. OPS. OPS is much more important than batting avg. Research and use your brain.
Pure spin. Everyone knows you need power to score a lot of runs. The Mets were dead last in the league in HRs, which is why they didn’t score many runs.
How is it a spin? They led the league in BA. Bayonne,Metsie and Alex say that BA is more important. Fact is BA is not the most important stat. OPS is farmore important. You won’t ever see a team lead the league in OPS and finish in tne bottom of the league offensively but you can finish in the bottom even with a league leading BA. There’s no spin.I’ve always said OPS is far more important than BA and it is. Mets hit 33 more HR’s in 2010 than they did in 2009 and the 2009 team scored more runs. No coincidence that the 2010 teams OB% was well below league avg. The 2011 Mets hit fewer HR’s than the 2010 Mets and the 2011 Mets outscored the 2010 Mets by 62 runs. Again their OB was much higher.
The mets average in 2011 was much higher than in 2010 too. The 2009 Mets also had a high good OBP, and finished towards the bottom in RS, does that make it a bad stat too?
No their 2009 OB% was league avg,not good. last year it was above league avg,2010 it was way below.
In 09, it was above league average.
Oh yes 4 points,my bad. Slug was 15 points below. OPS was still below league avg.
What did they rank in HR that year?
Didn’t look did you?
They ranked high in BA because their power hitters were all replaced by kids who had no power but hit for average!
What people seem to have forgotten that there were games we had 10+ hits but manage to scored 3 and 4 runs at best.. we had to scramble 3 and 4 hits together JUST to scored a single run…
Good thing we had that high OBP so we could grind out runs. There are just going to be days the power ain’t on.
If BA is the most important stat as you guys seem to think,then what difference does power make? OB% + Slug% = OPS. Thats why we always say OPS is far more important than BA.
By the way, mets were #2 in BA and OBP, yet they were 77-85…. OBP = LOSING SEASON as well…
So BA also = losing.
They were 6th in RBI = losing.
This is fun.
Yeah they lost 85 games because they got on base too much. The bullpen had nothing to do with that.
VLADIMIR GUERRERO HOF
Abreu, not a HOF
I think I agree. Abreu no shot in hell. Vlad I am just not so sure yet until some of these power hitters from that era get in.
Bayonne, you remember the 1987 season? especially in the AL? well, George Bell hit 308 with 47 hr’s and 134 RBI’s, he walked a total of 39 times, raising his OBP from 308 to 350… he was the MVP.. the previous year he was also an MVP candidate. he hit 309 with 31 108 BUT yet again his OBP was just 40 points higher…
you wonder, People cared as much about OBP then as they do now? i don’t think so.. he was an agressive hitter who with so so team, elevated his level of play…
very, very dangerous hitter. The guy was one of the more imposing threats at the plate when he was around
But that’s the way it is now and it’s a disgrace. They’re more concerned about him getting to 1B because of his stupid OBP than anything else.
Guys like that we would all HOPE the worst they do is just get to 1B, remember? Now it’s considered good.
The bar has been lowered in favor of a new passive approach that takes the bat out of the hands of experienced professionals and sends them back to the days when they were learning the game. That’s what this nonsense is all about. It’s disgusting.
So guys who are patient hitters and walk a lot are bad hitters or good hitters or indifferent?
don’t waste people’s time with STUPID SEMANTIC retorts. That’s what results in 150 comment responses.
That is just a complete waste of time.
Yeah, god forbid we help MMO out by posting a lot of comments and trying to have actual debates about baseball with each other. I bet Joe is pissed.
Now, again can you answer the question?
Well, it’s always good to have 100+ comments on any article. but this article was about sandy praising Duda, somehow it became about OBP and the sabergoons came in… then the rest of the klan joined in at the end. Overall a good thread imo..
Hmm, I can’t imagine how it became about OBP.
That being said, OBP is not a saber stat and I am not even a saber guy. I would not even understand how they calculate most “saber” stats. In fact there are plenty of “saber” sites that would laugh at you for bringing up OBP so I guess they actually have something in common with some on here.
Those were also his two best years in terms of BA and OBP.
Also, an OBP that is 40 points higher than your BA for some will produce a very reasonable OBP.
Again, how is getting on base more a bad thing?
If George Bell or almost any other decent hitter for that matter loses his aggressiveness and winds up walking with a runners on 3rd and one out in the 8th inning of a tie game when a slow ground ball…YES A GROUND BALL resulting in an OUT can bring that run in in exchange for an out you do it all the time.
Or he swings wildly to make contact and hit it into the OF i would prefer that to a walk.
There is NO set formula. You DO what u can to get those runs in and win games
You seem to think that we want guys walking instead of getting base hits which couldn’t be further from the truth. We want guys not getting themselves out and taking a walk rather than going outside of the strikezone alla Jeff Francouer who swings at everything. Pujols gets on base well over 400% and he’s not passive.Same with all the great hitters. They’re not passive but they don’t swing at everything. Nobody wants hitters taking hittable pitches. That’s what you just can’t seem to understand.
Right, Bengie Molina would be a prime example of this. Swing at everything, have guys on in front of you and you are bound to get some RBI but often kill rallys as well.
Just following along but…
Ding. Ding. Ding.
What you said.
I thought Joe put on some kind of filter to auto delete and thread that devolved into the same OBP is wonderful/worthless debate?
You guys have a hard time understanding the point here. Nobody is saying that it’s bad to get on base – That’s just spin – The point is, that way too much focus is being put on OB%. Sure getting on is nice, but that’s only half the story, you have to be able to drive them in. There’s so many other factors that are involved with scoring other than simply saying “get on base”. And one of them is, getting those runners home. If you get on base but the hitters behind you can’t get you in, then what good is that? Your missing half the story – You have to be able to drive those guys in.
And other factors would be obviously power, and then there’s speed on the bases, and good baserunning. A guy who has speed and is a great baserunner is going to score more runs than a slow footed runner who has a slightly higher OBP – The good baserunner can steal 2nd, to put himslef in scoring postion, and has a better chance to score on a base hit, and advance from 1st to 3rd on a base hit – So there’s that too.
The main point is, that there’s way too much focus on OBP. There’s a lot of other factors involed – - Like being able to get big hits to drive in runs, good baserunning, ect. And ignoring those parts of the game, and just simply saying “get on base”, will = losing because there’s so many other factors involved with scoring than “just get on base”
That’s what it’s all about Vinny,
Now you have a younger generation learning baseball the wrong way and thinking they know everything just because the know you have to “get on base”. and what’s also sad is you have older people for some reason forgetting what they knew and actually getting dumber.
Not only does this ‘new baseball’ diminish the importance of individual achievements it also waters down and disregards the nuances that make baseball a truly thinking man’s game. Not thinking in the saber way but thinking in the strategic way
You mean “this new Branch Rickey baseball”?
You gotta admire a comment that suggests diving deeper into the games statistics is seen as “not thinking”
Precisely Vinny!
OBP is nice to show how what happened, happened.
It can’t tell you however (by itself) how much of what happened was EARNED or NOT EARNED until you look at other things!
If a guy hits .300 there is no reason to even look at his OBP!
It’s going to be above .300!
And if it isn’t he is scoring a lot of runs with those outs he is making!
The bottomline here is OBP is a nie story teller but when it comes time to choose who the best player is and how much he has accomplished OBP fails because it awards the batter for things he didn’t accomlish like getting hit by a pitch or being walked intentionally!
If he gets walked intentionally because of what he accomplished in OTHER at bats thats still not an accomplishment of THAT at bat!
And by looking at and getting good BA your more likely to get those gimmes than you will with someone who has a high OBP but not as good BA because the Pitcher can pitch to that guy’s BA not his OBP!
No Vinny you guys are missing the point. Obviously you need to drive in the runs but you can’t drive in runs if your team does a shit job getting on base. Just look at the 2010 Mets. They were awful at getting on base.You can’t set up big spots if you’re not getting on base above league avg. Bayonne is the one who thinks OB% is stupid.Bay,Alex and Metsie say BA is most important but its not OPS is more important. Ob and slug,OPS is much much more important that BA. 25 hits seperate a 250 hitter from a 300 hitter. 1 hit per week.
Like I said before,you guys all think we want guys walking instead of hitting which is assinine. We want our hitters not getting themselves out swing at everything like our 2010 lineup.We want to replace oust with walks not hits. Hitting in big spots is important but there aren’t to many big spots when there are no baserunners. How any baseball fan can think wanting your team to get on base is stupid and silly is beyond belief.
Sure you can see the Bluejays circa 2011 and 2010!
What was their OBP rank and what was their RS rank compared to all those teams with better OBP?
And what was Jose Batista’s HR total the last 2 years? And what is his OBP? All you are proving is how Toronto is wasting his production.
Again, all you have is one team with a freak of nature. That doesn’t negate the fact that generally, teams with higher OBPs score more runs.
Toronto was 1st in Sluggng and 3rd in OPS. They hit 257 bombs and 264 2B’s. How often does that happen.
And what does that have to do with OBP?
What made the OPS high the SLG or the OBP?
If not the OBP then you just proved OBP obviously isn’t really important as fas as RS is!
SLG might be but then again that SLG is only relelvant because they were HITS not WALKS and those HITS resulted in RBI!
Regarding the Blue Jays the question really should be:
With the amount of doubles and HR’s how come they didn’t score twice as many runs as they did?
or why didn’t the guys with more OBs score as much?
That question cuts both ways!
Just goes to show that Both will not give an exact answer but by using RBI there is a closer correlation than OBP!
If you select based on increasing RBI instead of OBP you probably will get more RS AND more OB!
because the best RBI guys are also usually the best hitters which means you get your cake and eat it too!
Get the best OBP guy and your not really sure they are going to get on, drive in runs or score more runs for you!
OB% and Slug% are both important.Both are far more important than BA. I never saw a team lead the league or be among the league leaders in OPS and be at the bottom in RS but I have seen that with BA.
Ahhh the old OBP/Ops switcheroo!
OBP failed so now we are talking about OPS just so you can give OBP some credit!
Replace the OBP with BA in the equation and look at how BA does just as much if not BETTER job making an OPS that correlates to RS better than the OBP+SLG model does!
OB% didn’t fail. You showed one instance where a team that got on base below league avg scored a lot of runs. That doesn’t win you the arguement. And why was there an exception to that rule? What’s that dickie term you use? Pray tell? Could it e that they hit an extraordinary amount of HR’s? OPS is the other stat you call useless and OPS+ is even more uselss. Should I pull tha tcomment of yours up too.OB% is still proven to be a more important factor in scoring runs and OPS is even more so than batting avg. Over 100 years of MLB and you have what 1 or 2 exceptions?? And what was that other exception Metsie. Ummmm Slug%? The other half of that useless OPS stat. BA fails see 2009 Mets 1st in BA 12th in runs. BA is not the most important. Sorry spin man. Fraudsie! Reasearch is your friend! Try it.
Actually Fonz I showed 5-6 teams over the past 5 years and more than one team per year that had a lowr OBP but scored more runs than a team with higher OBP!
Showed that research over a year ago and since you did so well finding my old comments try looking for my old fanposts regarding OBP vs RBI and correlation to RS!
Will save us some time if I don’t have to re shoot down all these crap excuses being made in favor of a Stat that has NO RELATION to scoring runs, hitting or RBI!
He’s not saying that getting on base is stupid – That’s spin. He’s saying focusing so much on OB% and ignoring other factors that result in scoring runs, like driving in runs, and good baserunning is stupid.
“Obviously you need to drive in the runs but you can’t drive in runs if your team does a shit job getting on base”
It works both ways – Obviously you need to get on base, but they can’t score much if the guys behind them don’t do a good job of driving them in. See? Getting them on, is only half the story.
OPS and average are two different type of stats. OPS just gives you a quick overview of if the player is good or bad overall. Average tells you if a player is good or bad at a specific skill, which is the players ability to get hits – Which is very important. I think stats like average are better than OPS because you become more informed of what the players specific strenghts and weaknesses are. OPS, doesn’t. It just tell you if the player is good or bad, which is fine, but I want to know more. Like if you told me there’s a player who had a .800 OPS, I’d want to know more about him, like is he a HR hitter? doubles hitter? Does he K alot? If I’m a GM or a Manager, I want to know what the specific skills the player would bring team.
Vinny,
I don’t respond to those clowns like Fonzie who make these FALSE assertions that what I’m saying is getting on base is stupid. That’s just spin.
Fonzie is another fraud. He spins and takes things out of context and tries to spin them around and use your words against you like the rest of those guys.
Of course that’s not what i’m saying.
It’s blatantly false. Even when you say that’s not what you mean, they still insist that your saying getting on base is bad.
They are just doing that because they have a very weak argument, IMO.
Vin if you wanna take that stance then God bless ya but the guy that calls me a clown constantly says OB% is useless,silly,dumb etc… All I did was prove that BA is not the most important stat and its not.OPS tells a far greater story than BA and you can research baseball from the beginning and it will tell you that OPS correlates more to scoring runs than BA does. It’s not an opinion of mine it’s a fact.
Bayonne you’re the one that goes on these childish rants about anytime OB,Slg,slash lines,ect…,get mentioned so stop acting like you’re getting attacked here or spinning is going on. None of that has anything to do with sabermetrics by the way. Nobody has disputed the fact that runs need to be driven in.The only thing disputed in terms of RBI’s is that it’s a poor measure of talent. You can hit 400but if your team can’t get on base you can’t drive in runs.
You didn’t prove anything. What your doing is arguing something that nobody is arguing. And what does OBP=losing mean? Well, I already explained it.
‘The main point is, that there’s way too much focus on OBP. There’s a lot of other factors involed – – Like being able to get big hits to drive in runs, good baserunning, ect. And ignoring those parts of the game, and just simply saying “get on base”, will = losing because there’s so many other factors involved with scoring than “just get on base”’
And I already exlpained what I thought about OPS and average.
OPS and average are two different type of stats. OPS just gives you a quick overview of if the player is good or bad overall. Average tells you if a player is good or bad at a specific skill, which is the players ability to get hits – Which is very important. I think stats like average are better than OPS because you become more informed of what the players specific strenghts and weaknesses are. OPS, doesn’t. It just tell you if the player is good or bad, which is fine, but I want to know more. Like if you told me there’s a player who had a .800 OPS, I’d want to know more about him, like is he a HR hitter? doubles hitter? Does he K alot? If I’m a GM or a Manager, I want to know what the specific skills the player would bring team.
Thing is looking at just their BA tells you no more than looking at just their OPS. Yeah it tells you if they get hits/ab (not plate appearances so a guy like Castillo who bunts a lot could have an artificial or flawed BA). It also does not tell you that the guy is Bengie Molina and hits .299 but has an OBP of .302 because he refuses to ever walk and kills rally after rally swinging at bad pitches and bailing out a pitcher. However, if I was looking at two players who are playing the same position or are going to hit in the basic same area of the lineup looking at OPS is fine as a starting point. I would much rather look at OPS than BA for a #4 hitter, where as a #1/2 I might rather look at OBP or a #6/7 hitter maybe I would look at RBI/RBI chances.
However, no matter how you look at it, gone are the days where ANY team is still jJUST looking at BA, HR and RBI. Those days are like the Wild West, gone but lots of myths still exist about them.
I didn’t say to just look at their average. What I meant was stats like average, 2b’s, 3b’s, HR’s, RBI, BB’s, K’s. And by looking at all of those, I’ll know what the players specific strenghts and weaknesses are. Whereas, if I looked at just OPS, I would know if the hitter is good or bad, but I wouldn’t know what his specific strenghts and weaknesses are, and I would be less informed about what specific talent the player would bring to my team.
Why are you guys bringing up OPS? Because it included OBP in it and your giving up on winning the OBP comparison that started this? (Fonzie did this too so I’m not really blaming you here TRS!)
BA is important because it doesn’t really matter WHAT the hit was when all is said and done no matter what side of the OB coin you sit on!
Getting lots of HIT (or 1 Hit in 3AB) means your getting on base AND driving in runs of those who got OB before you! Your getting both your OB good AND the RBI good!
Going OB you can’t say that the RBI are coming with it because walks only drive in runs with the bases loaded and Hits do that just as well PLUS if you hit your more likely TO walk!
BA judges how well the guy can AVOID an out by his own talents and hitting ability!
OBP only tells you how good he is avoiding those same outs PLUS avoiding outs that were never going to be outs because the pitcher gave them to him!
Walks are good no one says otherwise but walks can not be FORCED by the batter only recognized!
So if you want the better player get the thitter and the walks will follow!
You want to know power numbers fine use SLG!
Combine BA with SLG if thats what you want!
Then at least your not adding walks to water down the numbers and you can see how good the frequency of hits attained under BA actually are!
Who’s putting too much emphasis on OB%? How can there be too much emphasis on it. I already said you have to drive in the guys that get on base,thanks for the news flash. The offense still starts with getting OB at a high rate. It’s not a coincidence that the teams that get on more score more than the teams that don’t, many more times than don’t.Not often do you get a team like Toronto that hit’s 257 HR’s and 264 2B’s.That’s the excepetion not the norm
And I’m talking about teams OB and Slug not individual players. Even with players, BA doesn’t tell me as much as OPS does.You need to look at everything Ba,Slg,OB,OPS,K rate,BB rate but to say OPS diminishes the hitters accomplishments is totally inaccurate.It does nothing of the sort.That’s what Bayonne says.
And don’t tell me that Bayonne Metsie and Alex didn’t say BA is the more important stat because they did.And this is not the only thread where he’s said OB% is useless or stupid. OB% is never useless just because they were LOB.
“I already said you have to drive in the guys that get on base,thanks for the news flash.”
And when you tell me, “you have to get on to score”, I will tell you “thanks for the news flash”. See? it works both ways.
No it doesn’t work both ways. You guys think getting on base is useless unless you have RBI’s. Hitting in the clutch is random from year to year,week to week. Teams go through hot and cold spells. Even when your cold,if you’re still sustaining your OB%, you’ll still score runs,not at the same rate but you will still score. If that OB drops,you’re taking away RBI opportunities. That’s why you’ll never hear anybody that knows the game say OB is useless without RBI’s cause getting on will always lead to RBI’s. Alex gave a perfect example. 2008 David Wright was 60 points below his career batting avg with RISP at 243 but he still drove in 124 runs. If the team had a low OB he doesn’t drive in 90 with that 243 or 248 avg,whatever it was. OB only tells part of the story but it’s the main(most important) part of the story.As long as the OB is sustained the runs will score.
No Joe Diaz, OB is NOT the main part of the story.
There is only a story if he scores. You want to win a championship? Then you need someone to close the deal
The guy who closes the deal is the main part of the story. He makes it a story.
That’s how ALL sports works. We don’t celebrate the the assist we celebrate the goal/score/TD, etc. And who makes that happen? The Difference Makers (RBI guys) not the worker bee. The worker bee is just doing what he’s supposed to do,
Got that Dopey Joe?
Tell something Fonzie…
How much use is a walk that has no RBI to bring it home?
How much do you get on the scoreboard for that!
OBP is great for Fantasy leagues not judging which player to get nor will increasing it score more runs unless your RBI increase with it!
Mostrarmi una squadra che non può chiudere l’affare con un alto sulla base.
Ask Joe Diaz to translate!
Easy.The 2008 New York Mets.
I’m almost positive your Joe Diaz – You could have just used google translate(like I did), or “Joe Diaz” is just a fake name. Here’s why I almost positive your “Joe Diaz”:
1. You take the same side on every issue as Joe Diaz did
2. You both have the same favortie player(Fonzie)
3. You both say the same thing about me, like “coming to Bayonne’s defense”
4. You both sometimes make the same mistake of not spacing words after a peirod or a comma.
5. You both wrote the same exact comment about Matt Moore being picked one pick after Duda….And I never seen anyone else ever talk about that. except for you.
6. And as soon as “Fonzie13″ came here, “Joe Diaz” has mysteriously disappeared.
Same IP address as well!
If your a person who loves BA it just doesn’t stand to reason that you would dislike OB because 80% or more of OB is BA.
Say you got a light to medium hitting kid who hit .280 and got on .310. What’s the first thing you’d think? I’d think this kid needs to make the pitcher throw him more strikes and there is only one way to do that.
When they do throw him more strikes he’ll hit better. His BA and OB will go up and he’ll score more runs and drive in more as well assuming the same production from his teammates.
No thats quite an assumption!
Should we assume that if you like OB you dislike BA too?
Guys who Like BA like it for it’s ability to tell you how well the guy hits!
If I want to know how often he gets on base then Im fine with OB!
But getting and being on base has NOTHING to do with hitting a baseball! Has to do with bases not hitting!
Has to do with getting hit by and NOT hitting a baseball!
As well as the hits I already know about by looking at BA without HBP and walks obscuring how much he actually did on his own without help!
“But getting and being on base has NOTHING to do with hitting a baseball.”
Hmmmm.
Really Metsie?
When at least 80% of the time you must get a hit to get on.
OK, if you say so.
I like BA. It tells me what kind of a year a guy is having but I like OB because it tells me whether that BA is sustainable. That and a low K rate.
That’s why I was so high on not trying to force the issue with Delgado in 2010 and just let Murphy play till Ike was here. he’s not a high OB guy but he’s a low strikeout guy who gets his pitch and drives it.
If Murphy struck out at a league average rate he’d have to either alter his approach or go to grad school cause no one would be trying to fit him in anywhere.
The high OB is basically not striking out or making weak contact cause your not swinging at crap. Your taking it and getting something better to hit next pitch just like your excellent article on Murphy’s AB last season.
He didn’t bite on Clippards out pitch change off the outside corner, turned around his FB foul and made Clippard bring the change into the zone and crushed it.
Jacobs would have been in the clubhouse 2 pitches earlier.
So your using information that is 20% complete bullshit to juudge a Hitter!
Lets see you want Apples and more apples!
Do you look for fruit or apples?
Your looking at fruit hoping 80% are apples!
Look for the apples and 100% of what you find are apples!
What does OB%= losing mean then? Maybe he could tell you what he’s trying to say and you can say it better for him so there’s no mix ups in the future.
try using what i say in it’s proper context instead of INTENTIONALLY spinning things. At least i hope you’re trying to spin because if not then you really do have comprehension issues.
This is probably where that guy (I won’t say Fonzie because he’s tarnishing the name of one of my all time favs) got that line from..and i’m proving that he’s taking it out of context. Those guys always take things out of context because like Vinny said and I agree – they have weak arguments. Them and their philosophy equates to losing in more ways than one. It’s called rationalizing things to fit your point. Winners don’t do that.
Anyway here’s my post that he’s intentionally culling a couple of words from to try and mislead people:
“If Duda can drive in 85 to 100 RBIs hitting 5th or 6th that would bode well for the Mets because driving in that many runs hitting in that spot would be a very good indication of how the middle of the order is doing = winning games.
But Alderson and his army don’t like to talk about RBIs, just getting on base and I GUESS Duda could be able to do that well too but that = losing.
But hey, he may walk a lot and not drive in those runs in front of him and have a high OBP = losing
Driving in runs and especially driving them in in BIG SPOTS is what’s gonna make Duda his money, not his OBP. And Mets fans should be well versed in not being able to drive in runs in big spot so THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER. But I guess they haven’t learned their lesson and need MORE leaving runners on in big spots and more losing to remind them”
I didn’t spin anything. If you don’t know how to express yourself that’s not my fault.
But Alderson and his army don’t like to talk about RBIs, just getting on base and I GUESS Duda could be able to do that well too but that = losing ” This is what you said. No one is spinning anything:.
Alderson doesn’t like talking about RBI’s? Has he told you that? Just getting on base and I guess Duda can do that well to but that = losing. Yeah okay Vin. I’m spinning it. Give me a fkn break. Leave it to Vinny to eplain what bayonne really means. Do you open his fly when he needs to take a leak too.
.
But hey, he may walk a lot and not drive in those runs in front of him and have a high OBP = losing. If he walks alot it’s because he’s not swinging at pitches that would get him out with those runners on base.
Listen, Joe Diaz, and I want Donal to read this too, so I don’t have to copy it again.
It’s very easy to see what he’s talking about. He’s saying that not talking about RBI’s and just OBP will = losing. Read his comment, he starts with saying “Sandy and his army don’t like to talk about”. So we know when somebody starts sentence like that(this is very simple stuff), the rest of it would be about what “sandy and his army” don’t like to talk about – So the comment is about what Sandy and his army talk about. And he’s saying what they talk about will = losing.
He’s not saying getting on will = losing. He’s saying not talking about RBI, and just about getting on base will = losing. It’s very clear and very easy to undertsnad what he meant.
Joe Diaz, maybe if you didn’t have to spin everything, I wouldn’t have to explain everything to you. So if your tired of me doing this, simply stop spinning and I won’t have to .
Vin who are you referring to? Joe Diaz hasn’t commented once on this thread. Are you referring to me.. If you are then you’re full of shit. Not too many full blooded Italians named Diaz. I know exactly what he said. It still doesn’t make it true. Show me a team with a high OB% that is a bad offensive team. Show me the data that proves what Bayonne meant is
true.Does Bayonne speak to Alderson? Does he know what he talks about? What he and all talent evaluators say is RBI’s is not a good measure used to evaluate a player,years of research have proved this.
Don’t tell me I’m spinning when he has a fit everytime it’s mentioned. Where were you when he attacked Extreem and Agee a few weeks ago because they were talking about Baxter and Lowens batting avg’s. He went on his typical lunatic rampages because he THOUGHT they were talking abou their OB% which they weren’t. Where’s the spin there. Where’s the spin when he says Who cares about stupid OB%.GM’s don’t sign guys because of their stupid OB%,they sign because of their HR’s and RBI’s.
If you wanna pick your spots when to defend your boyfriend fine but don’t tell me we’re spinning what this guy says. Real easy to read between the lines. He hates anything to do with the mentioning of OB% or anything to do with Alderson,Sabermetrics, and any advanced stats.That’s yours and his prerogative. Doesn’t mean they’re useless.
If you wanna call someone out for spinning just take a look at Metsies comments.The king of spins. The problem with you knuckleheads is you guys all think OB% only covers the hitters BB’s. It’s not the hits we want replaced with walks it’s the outs.Get it through your heads.There’s not too much emphasis on it.That’s an absolute dumb statement.All because Vance Worley shut us down last year and Gary Cohen asked if it’s because too many guys are putting too much emphasis on it doesn’t mean hitters are putting too much emphasis on it.
The Yanks have no trouble scoring runs and no team puts more emphasis on working counts and getting on base more than they do.
Your misinterpreting what the point is. – Everything you just said is wrong. Nobody hates OB%, I just don’t like focusing so much on it, that we begin to lose focus on other important aspects of the game. And again, your wrong about saying we think OBP is only about walks – More spin.
And Tony LaRussa also agres with our point about OBP(Our REAL point, not what your twisting it into). So, there are some very smart baseball people who agree with me on this subject.
Good points Fonzie. Especially with wanting walks to replace outs, not hits.
As for that mutant all he wants to do is turn every thread in to an Alderson, Wright, OB slug fest instead of discussing baseball and he never backs up his opinions with anything other than insults.
Must not have anything better to do.
Ignore him.
and correct again in that those “text msg” stats like OPS diminish the value of what a hitter is really all about and leaves a lot of information out.
I’m not gonna sign a guy to a big contract just knowing his OPS but I’m more likely to sign a guy to a big contract if i know he’s hitting .295 with 35 HRs and 100 RBIs.
Old stats but still the best ones to know if you want to WIN and if you want to give RESPECT to a hitter’s individual achievements.
And its just simply smarter baseball too. The other stuff leaves more room for rationalization and the more you rationalize those things the more you accept losing and find comfort with it.
No one is going to sign someone based on just OBP anyway, most teams that use “saber” stats are going way above OBP.
if a guy hits 290 and hits and hit’s 35 HR’s I gaurentee you his OPS is real good.
fine,
But if you just have the OPS and your not gonna know how many HRs, RBIs, his AVG or any of that. It’s just a snapshot that’s all it is. OPS is a complete WASTE of time and about as useless a stat as they come.
If i want to WIN, sign a player OR want people to know about my career than you go with the regular stats. The OPS and that nonsense is just a test msg stat that you have to break down anyway and is only convenient for the reader because it’s a quick snapshot or general idea of a player’s ability.
You want to sign a player to help you win? You need more than a “general idea”
As long as you have all the traditional stats available you will be able to add them up and come up with all the saber metric composite stats your heart desires. Not the other way around
OPS is not a saberstat. Just because you think it’s a waste of time doesn’t make it so. All I need to look at a guys OPS and I can figure out the rest,not the other way around.The higher the OPS the more runs we’re gonna score.I don’t need to know the rest.It’s all inconclusive/
good then you have no desire to learn about a players individual statistics.
And they are NOT inconclusive as I’ve been referring to them (and MLB too) our entire lives and winning teams have been built using those stats. And you learn about the player’s individual accomplishments too. I like that. You may not think it’s important but I do. It’s also respectful of the individual players accomplishments too. Learning about the player’s individual accomplishments is being lost in this new math and that’s terrible.
If you are familiar with the player then yes you can look at OPS and figure out the rest. But you cannot do that if you are not familiar with the player. You just can’t.
I can also pretty much figure out any player’s OBP just by randomly adding ehhh……50 to 75 points to each batting avg. But it doesn’t work as well the other way around.
This last paragraph should be immortilized.
It really and truly says it all.
“I can also pretty much figure out any player’s OBP just by randomly adding ehhh……50 to 75 points to each batting avg. But it doesn’t work as well the other way around.”
Great isn’t it? So tell me Prince Fielder’s OBP? LOL
Fielder .299 BA, OBP ?
As a rough estimate he is actually pretty much correct though Tag!
If you get a hit 1 in every 3 AB you are likely to get a walk in every 6-8 Abs…
Which adds about .075 to your BA!
It’s not a great way to estimate but it isn’t far off the mark!
Look at most of the .300 hitters.
Whats their OBP above BA?
The guys who go above that average are all HR hitters who get intentionally walked a lot!
I would bet if we figured it out that your OBP is on average is anywhere from 50-75 points higher than BA
“I can also pretty much figure out any players OBP just by randomly adding ehhh…..50 to 75 points to each batting average. But it doesn’t work as well the other way around.”
This has got to be the most unintentionally funny postings of all time.
Extra credit for the author for not even knowing why this is so funny.
Takes it from merely hysterical to all time immortality status.
Vada a bordo cazzo!
You just can’t make this **** up.
okay, if Prince Fielder hits .299 what would his OBP be?
Ok this off the top of my head, i’m not looking up anything and typing this as I go along. I will go look at this lifetime stats after i give my guess………….i’ll say his OBP would be ….394.
I should be alotted a +/- of 10 points either way.
Now i’ll go look at his stats.
alright, i looked it up and he’s had .412 & .415 OBPs respectively so i’m not much off and he’s had OBP of .395 when he hit .288
I have feeling just because i said i can add 50-75 points to any avg and guess their obp the sneerers lost site of the fact that of course great hitters who we all know about like Fielder’s, Pujols, Cabrera and so on all have 100 to higher differences. that’s nothing, everybody knows that.
Metsie it would work as an average for a team or a league but individual players are all very different.
Yes all players are different
Thats why I mentioned hr hitters tend to walk more than other high average hitters!
Two players with a .300 BA but one is just high average the other a HR threat the HR guy will walk more than the other!
But BOTH will have OBP’s above .300 and AT LEAST an OBP of 50-75 points higher than their BA!
Like you always say Hits comprised the majority of OBP but without the BA you don’t really know if that majority is 51% or 75%!
In the case of Carlos Pena he has a low BA and 111 Hits but 101 walks which means while the htis are still a majority your talking maybe 52% hit 48% walks!
And walks can’t score runs unless the bases are loaded or someone else drives you in!
Carlos Pena and Adam Dunn and guys like that shouldn’t really be included because they comprise such a small subset of Major leaguers.
My point about OB is really nothing more than taking your walks when their offered increases not just your OB but your BA as well. It’s that facet of the game that separates players. The typical BA of a player who swings at most offerings maybe around .270. If he didn’t swing at everything he’s hit for a higher BA and obviously a much higher OB.
Moves some of those low BA pitches into the ball category and either get better pitches or just take the walk.
It’s not about getting the walks (to me) it’s about getting better pitches. To get better pitches you have to take balls and inevitably some of those times you’ll wind up walking. If you can’t prove patience to a Major league pitcher it’s no different than proving you can’t hit.
Murphy doesn’t walk that much but he sure does get pitches to hit and when he does he gets the barrel on the ball but do not make the mistake that Murphy didn’t have to prove he could recognize the difference between a ball and a strike or that he won’t have to continue to prove it.
Walks are just an incidental part of being a good hitter, not the intention of a good hitter.
And what do you do if they are NOT a small subset anymore?
Can OBP tell you what part of the subset they belong to?
BA sure can!
Wait, in the middle here, was there just a post that says normal hitters in the .290 range all just get 50 or so points assigned for OBP (since it is unimportant to really look at), but great hitters have to get more like 100 pts. added.
so 2 guys with the same BA, the difference between average and great then is the great guy also gets on base more (higher OBP?)?
sounds about right.
I’ll try to explain it a bit…Mind you it’s an assumption not an accurate method of what your going to get because batters are different.
Just as someone who looks at an OBP above .350 assumes the player can hit this is basically the reverse logic behind that. I don’t think anyone is suggesting it is an accurate way to do things especially when OBP is listed right next to BA on the stat sheets.
The concept is simple, Rarely and almost NEVER will a players OBP be lower than his BA! Because OBP is largely comprised of Hits in most players.
But BA will ALWAYS be lower than OBP! Unless the guy never walked or was hit by a pitch!
in that case they would be the same!
If a batter hits .300 well it doesn’t really matter if his OBP is less than .350 does it? He’s still a good hitter, so what he’s a contact hitter, doesn’t matter .300 BA is still a good hitter in ANY universe!
If a batter has a .357 OBP do you know how much of that consists of hits?
C. Pena had a .357 OBP can you tell me his BA? Can you tell me how much of that OBP is comprised of and talks to HITTING?
I doubt it! and in the case of Pena his BA is .225! 49.5% of his OB is due to a walk not a hit!
Why is that (in his case)? Is it because he is such a great hitter and that .225 BA that Pitcher’s fear? Or is it those 28 HRs?
The assumption about how much above BA a player’s OBP will be is largely to do with the type of hitter he is not what his BA is! A .300 hitter who has no pop is not going to get walked as often as a .225 HR hitter because the .300 hitter isn’t going to clear the bases or score a run on his own, the HR hitter can!
SO no it’s not accurate to add 50-75 points to BA to get OBP but it’s far more accurate to estimate OBP that way then it is to estimate what BA is starting from OBP!
Is it as bad at juding OBP and OBP is for judging Hitting? YES!
But it’s also more accurate going that way than it is to go the other way because the OBP is never lower than the BA and BA is ALWAYS lower than the OBP!
It’s more difficult to estimate the majority component than it is to estimate the minority component! At least when your wrong the margin of error is in the minority stat!
No one though is suggesting it’s a good method to use just that it is not much different than what the OBP crowd does when they ignore BA.
Both are making ASSUMPTIONS, OBP about how well he HITS the other how well he walks!
I only supported it because people tried to make the poster sound crazy before even looking at the league averages of BA and the difference between it and OBP!
It works great on a team level just not so well on individuals!
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Well Metsie if it wasn’t for their OB they’d be part of the subset described as former Major Leaguers unless they played SS, C or CF at an elite level.
While at one time the Dave Kingman, Rob Deer type could make a career for himself that’s not as common today because most guys who hit 25-35 HR’s can supplement that production by helping offensively in other ways too whether it be with hits or walks.
The cromagnon has been weeded out through evolution.
AllI’m getting accross here is if you select based on OBP your throwing out a net that grabs those subset and as a result could find more of them at some point than real guys!
Natural Selection works when Humans pick as well!
There is a crab in the waters off Japan that looks like a samurai! It’s a mutation and not the norm.
But over the years the Japanese threw it back because of it’s looks and now they are one of the most common crabs found!
If you keep picking for OBP then guys are going to work on thier OBP more than their BA and you wind up with a lot of Pena’s then!
Because they do whatever it takes to get picked!
I don’t look at it as selecting based upon I see it as improving upon what you selected.
Teaching an approach to hitting in the minor leagues other than grip it and rip it.
It takes extraordinary skill to learn pitch recognition and discipline but it’s only in doing so that a player can get the absolute most out of his abilities.
Take a guy like Mike Jacobs. He was looking real good offensively in AA as a 22 year old but he still was striking out 3 – 1 vs. his walks. If he could have just learned to be more patient or developed the skills to recognize balls, sped up or shortened his swing he could have had a career.
Sure he got much much farther than most but even with 32 dingers, 93 RBI and a .514 SLG % Fla got off him as soon as he became arbitration eligable.
100 HR’s but just 166 walks in 6 years. He didn’t make pitchers pitch to him. He made it easy for them
He was Dave Kingman and that’s just not good enough to hang around the Majors anymore.
What does knowing a guy’s obp teach him about not swinging at balls or not to strike out?
And tell me what is more important to teach him, How to walk more or how to hit more?
Does a guy with a .325 BA really need to be more passive because the rest of the time he strikes out when he isn’t getting a hit?
Learning what to swing at and what not to is what fuels BA. When you strike out or make weak contact on a pitch you can’t do anything with your BA goes down. If by chance you wind up taking 4 times in an at bat, pitches you couldn’t do anything with, you get walked. BA stays the same and OB goes up.
Next AB that pitcher knows he has to bring it in just a little closer. Just like your excellent article “Anatomy of an AB” featuring Murphy laying off Tyler Clippards change up, crushing his next offering (FB) foul and then crushing the change that Clippard had to bring into the zone for a HR.
That’s the essence of hitting right there. Not swinging at what the pitcher wants you to, but making the pitcher give you something you can get the barrel of the bat on.
The walks are just a by product of a good hitters approach and the difference between the BA and OB of good hitters confirms this.
Had Murphy shared Mike Jacobs approach in that AB vs. Clippard he would have struck out on the first change up and no one would be giving him a chance to play anywhere.
WRONG!
what drives BA is the mechanics of your swing and the efficiency of weight, leverage and flexability of those mechanics that drives BA!
Recongnizing the pitch does not mater if you can’t connect the bat with the ball in a way that gets you a hit!
And in OBP the stats shows walks and HBP which has nothing to do with hitting the ball!
So even if you think OBP tells you something about his plate discipline your dead wrong!
50% of those walks could be intentional!
I’ll use Pena again! Had a .357 OBP, had 111 Hits , 101 Walks 5 HBP and 161 Ks
Think his high OBP tells you he has plate discipline?
With 161 K compared to 101 BBs?
You are wrong. Incredibly wrong.
If Carlos Pena didn’t take his walks his BA and OB would collapse to the point where he’d be out of the League and his HR totals would go down as well since pitchers wouldn’t have to worry about walking him.
He’d basically be swinging at what they wanted him to instead of what he wanted to.
When you take all 3,000 position players throughout the Majors and minors one thing about these guys is that they are the absolute top .000000001% of baseball players in the world and they’ve demonstrated their hitting proffiency through out every single level of baseball up to the one their currently in.
Take out the up the middle guys to eliminate defense from the conversation and your talking about the purest 1500 hitters in the entire world and yet most of them do not even make it to the Majors despite being the best player on the field all through their youth and even all the way up to A ball. They didn’t get there by being even just good hitters, they got that far by being great hitters.
The thing that stalls most hitters in the minors by far and away is not controlling the strike zone as they move up.
And if it wasn’t for hi swing mechanics he would be out of the league even WITH that high OBP due to his walk taking!
You see to ignore what I’m saying here!
If you can’t hit a ball with authority when it’s a strike there is no reason to to walk a guy at all!
And his eye really won’t matter if everything coming at him is strikes he can’t do anything with because his swing mechanics suck!
Your theory only works on guys with good swings!
If Pena wasn’t a HR threat because his swing mechanics were bad all the walks in the world wouldn’t save him and woukldn’t come because they would look at that .225 and throw strikes his swing can’t do anything with!
OPS doesn’t diminish anything. That’s only in your eyes. OPS tells you much more than that 290 batting avg does.OPS will tell you if that batting avg is full of singles or extra basehits. BA doesn’t. Those 35 HR’s will be measured in his slugging which is in his OPS. You take you BA guys and I’ll keep my OPS guys.
“You guys have a hard time understanding the point here.”
No. you’re just plain wrong. One person being factually incorrect does not mean the other person doesn’t understand them.
We hear you loud and clear. You’re just wrong.
“Nobody is saying that it’s bad to get on base – That’s just spin –”
Alex and Bayonne equated a high OBP with losing.
“The point is, that way too much focus is being put on OB%.”
Yes, because Metsie, alex and Bayonne go crazy whenever it is mentioned. That is why these discussions spiral so far out of control.
“There’s so many other factors that are involved with scoring other than simply saying “get on base”. And one of them is, getting those runners home. If you get on base but the hitters behind you can’t get you in, then what good is that? Your missing half the story – You have to be able to drive those guys in.
And other factors would be obviously power, and then there’s speed on the bases, and good baserunning. A guy who has speed and is a great baserunner is going to score more runs than a slow footed runner who has a slightly higher OBP – The good baserunner can steal 2nd, to put himslef in scoring postion, and has a better chance to score on a base hit, and advance from 1st to 3rd on a base hit – So there’s that too.
The main point is, that there’s way too much focus on OBP. There’s a lot of other factors involed – – Like being able to get big hits to drive in runs, good baserunning, ect. And ignoring those parts of the game, and just simply saying “get on base”, will = losing because there’s so many other factors involved with scoring than “just get on base””
No one has seriously said OBP is the only thing that matters. Only that it is superior to BA and that RBIs are a lousy measure of a hitter’s prowess.
The only people who make claims like OBP is all that matters are Metsie, Bayonne, alex and you in order to discredit those who disagree with you. That is spin.
I’m pretty sure no Mets fan would get upset with Lucas Duda if he had a .320 OBP (or .250 BA if you want) but still managed to hit 30+ HR. If he didn’t bring in the RBIs, part of that would be the fault of the guys in front of him.
Like I already said, there is a happy medium between Luis Castillo and Steve Balboni.
I didn’t say you guys thought OBP was the only thing that matterd – More spin. I said, there was just too much foucus on it. I know you guys use other stats along with it, but I still think it’s being focused on way too much.
And Bayonne agreed with my post, he said “that’s what it’s all about”. So, I’m 100% correct.
It’s unbelivable that even when the man himslef says that’s not what he’s saying, these guys still INSIST he’s saying OBP is bad.
“And Bayonne agreed with my post, he said “that’s what it’s all about”. So, I’m 100% correct.”
Have you read nythign else Bayonen said? Like when he claimed people are making OBP the be all and end all? Or that a high OBP equals losing?
Sure, you go ahead and backtrack. Add some qualifiers “uh, no I/he/we said there was too much focus on it”. Of course, you’ll never actually back up that claim either.
“It’s unbelivable that even when the man himslef says that’s not what he’s saying,”
Despite actually saying it.
” these guys still INSIST he’s saying OBP is bad.”
Because he, you know, is.
Yes, you say it. And if it is spin to accuse someone of saying something they didn’t say, and you acknowledge that no one says that OBP is the be all and end all, and you jump in to defend Bayonne and alex and Metsie from such evil “spin”…
Why are you so silent when they do claim someone like myself says OBP is the be all and end all?
Unbelivable! I just told Donal that I didn’t say it, and told him I didn’t think it, and he tells me, “yes you say it”.
Even when you tell these guys that’s not what you mean, they STILL insist that it is. I never seen anything like this.
Ok, how about this? Find me where somebody said today that you guys only care about OBP( I haven’t read all 222 comments, so maybe somebody said it i don’t know), and I’ll tell them that it’s not true. Deal?
Then you should go read the rest of the comments. You make this big post about what people don’t get and how certain people didn’t really say things…
But it turns out we do get it and certain people indeed said those things.
Nope it doesn’t. Bayonne said that is not what he meant – Case closed. Why do you keep insisting that’s what he meant, when he said it isn’t? Are you that stubborn?
He’s trying to retract it now. Claiming later you didn’t say it doesn’t change the fact that you did indeed say it.
If that isn’t what he meant, then why did he say it?
Because he’s being reactionary and just lashing out at what he refuses to understand. This isn’t a real time conversation. this medium gives people ample time to think about what they say and figure out the best way to say it. “I didn’t mean it”, is not a sufficient excuse. The only way anyone can know what you mean is by what you say.
If someone is incapable of expressing himself in a rational manner, the fault lies with him, not the listener.
“Because he’s being reactionary and just lashing out at what he refuses to understand”
We are talking about Bayonne right? Not yourself?
Chuckle Chuckle!
Lashing out at me for saying OBP doesn’t correlate to RS better than something else when I show you the something else?
“Henry Chadwick, an English statistician raised on cricket, was an influential figure in the early history of baseball. In the late 19th century he adapted the concept behind the cricket batting average to devise a similar statistic for baseball. Rather than simply copy cricket’s formulation of runs scored divided by outs, he realised that hits divided by at bats would provide a better measure of individual batting ability. This is due to the fact that while in cricket, scoring runs is almost entirely dependent on one’s own batting skill, in baseball it is largely dependent on having other good hitters on one’s team. Chadwick noted that hits are independent of teammates’ skills, so used this as the basis for the baseball batting average. His reason for using at bats rather than outs is less obvious, but it leads to the intuitive idea of the batting average being a percentage reflecting how often a batter gets on base, whereas hits divided by outs is not as simple to interpret in real terms.”
Those damn saber guys messing with traditional baseball done gone and come up with some fangled number.
Who would you rather have on your team?
Ryan Howard: .253 .346 .488 .835 33 HR and 116 RBI
Joey Votto: .309 .416 .531 .947 29 HR 103 RBI
Carlos Lee: .275 .342 .446 .788 18 HR 94 RBI
Brian McCann: .270 .351 .466 .817 24 HR 71 RBI
Andrew McCutchen: .259 .364 .456 .820 23 HR 89 RBI
Raul Ibanez: .245 .289 .419 .707 20 HR 84 RBI
First full seasons….
Votto (2008): .297/.368/.506/.874…OPS+ 125
Duda (2011): .292/.370/.482/.852…OPS+ 136
Hmmm. The comparison of Duda & Votto sounds just about right. As much of a big fan I am of Duda, I’m anticipating to see what he’ll do when the season starts. I’m just hoping Duda can be a serviceable RF (defensively) for the time being, until whether Bay is dealt so he could be shifted to LF or for the long term, he’ll hold it down in RF for the time being until someone is ready for the show (I’m looking at you, Cory Vaughn!)
So, ya, how about that Lucas Duda?
There putting to much pressure on DUDA. He has potential but he dosent need crazy pressure.
Whoa… I don’t understand why it’s so hard to give both BA and OBP their just desserts. I can’t see why we should debate why one is better than the other. They both have their place in baseball and while BA may be senior to OBP, it’s not by much. OBP has been in use since the 1940′s and maybe even earlier than that. Great baseball men like Branch Rickey, Walter Alston, Casey Stengel and Earl Weaver were known for using it often in player evaluation and lineup decisions. Even Davey Johnson kept track of his player’s progress in OBP when he managed the Mets to the World Series. He used it effectively to manage the playing time for Dykstra, Wilson, Teufel and Backman specifically from what I recall him saying once in an interview.
Well Joe look at the arguments…
The BA folks only say i is a better indicator of HITTING! You have to hit the ball to record BA!
It’s the OBP guys who say BA is a bad stat not the BA guys who say OBP is a bad stat!
We are all for looking at OBP, Just not looking at it to find who is the better HITTER!
Walking has nothing to do with the ability to put bat on ball!
And no player can FORCE a pitcher to walk him only accept one when he does!
Wow. LOL.
This thread was just ridicolous!! my goodness, this was supposed to be about duda…
It was, until about 10 comments in when someone in the “core” made it about the fallacy of OBP…
“But Alderson and his army don’t like to talk about RBIs, just getting on base and I GUESS Duda could be able to do that well too but that = losing.
But hey, he may walk a lot and not drive in those runs in front of him and have a high OBP = losing”