A Date Which Will Live In Mets Infamy?

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• Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 8:07 am

  Sad story joe D, i gave him a pass the first year, i thought he played hard and hustle and being that is NY the pressure and all that can get to a player, but thought he’d bounced back and do a beltran type of turnaround and hit 20+ hr and maybe 100 rbi’s.. boy i was dead wrong, the guy is nothing but a bum and there is NO WAY that if he continues this putry performance on the field the mets allowed that vesting option to kick in, although, if the union steps in the mets (once again) are screwed..
  • t agee February 24, 2012 at 10:26 am

    The Wilpon’s have absolutely no idea that the “sweet spot” for position players is 24-31 years old. Depending on how great a player was during his “sweet spot” he can have a more gradual and extended decline which make years 32-34 still OK – good but nothing like what your paying for.

    Piazza’s last top year was at 33 and Keith Hernandez at 32. Not saying those guys were useless after but just that players don’t get better or even stay at their age 31 year level very long. Bay is no Piazza or Hernandez and his first year here BEGAN at age 31 exactly the age you want to let the guy go.

    Look at which free agents we’ve signed have been both healthy and productive. Beltran (28-33) and K-Rod (27-29) vs which ones haven’t. Alou (40), Pedro (33-36), Castillo (32-35) Bay (31-35). Delgado’s best years were from 28-31 by far and then again at age 33. Not saying he wasn’t a useful hitter but he was never the same guy with us that he was for Toronto or even the Marlins the one year they had him.

    The only reason we went after Bay in the first place is because he was one of two guys “who were available.” Not that he was the right fit for the team, lineup or especially the park. Citi field is difficult to hit HR’s so lets go get a HR hitter who’s entering his decline years. Good thinking. Imagine people are actually getting paid to make decisions like this. Hard to F-ing believe.

    Citi Field, at least back in 2010, required jaguars, not giraffes. If the right guys not “available” don’t sign the wrong guy and hope he’s the exception and anyone should have been able to see that 162 strikeouts in Fenway isn’t a killer because of the monster but at Citi would be because of the expanse, not to mention the difference in both teams lineups.

    Boston themselves didn’t want him going forward and either did anyone else.

    PS the steroid era ended (for the most part) in 2004, right when we started loading up on senior citizens.
    • jerseymet February 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm

      @ t agee. You are spot on. Loading up on aging high priced players is bad buisness. The Angels will regret signing Pujols for so long.
  • vinnie papandrea February 24, 2012 at 11:55 am

    I still think he could bounce back (probably will never be worth what he signed for but who is) What I can’t figure out is how we can compare 7 years of stats vrs 2 I guess that’s the new math.
• trs86 February 24, 2012 at 8:17 am

  “Jason Bay was the compounding of a problem, that they kept spending their money poorly,” said an executive from another team. “They have to get to the mindset of not doing that [bleep] anymore.”

  And that they have done.
  • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 8:23 am

    $60 million on perez and castillo, they try to fix the problem by throwing $66 more to jason bay… the END… but remember, santana has been injury prone as hell, include him in the bad deals made by the mets..
    • XtreemIcon February 24, 2012 at 8:26 am

      No way. Santana was a great deal. You make that move every single day and twice on Sunday.
    • trs86 February 24, 2012 at 8:29 am

      I disagree comparing the Johan deal to that. The Johan trade was a steal and the contract was worth the risk. Can you say that any of these other contracts were “worth the risk”? Also Johan in one season produced more than these 3 combined.
      • srt February 24, 2012 at 8:32 am

        No matter how the Johan story ends here in NY, I agree that trade up front was one you’d do every time.
    • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 9:47 am

      I am not saying the deal was not good, i am saying it’s just as the beltran deal, good when made and when healthy he produced for us, but he got hurt.. so far in 4 yeas he’s amassed 28 wins… is that worth the contract? imo no, and this is coming from someone who loved santana since he was with the twins..
      • Donal February 24, 2012 at 9:55 am

        And how many games did he pitch well enough to win, but got crappy run support or a bullpen meltdown?

        Santana was a beast those first 3 years, and that is what you pay for with long term deals. The first few years. “Help us win now and we’ll take care of you when you’re older”. That is why they are back loaded. So teams can load up on guys now and win in the present and deal with the last 3 years after they’ve made their run.
      • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 9:56 am

        hey, same excuse can be made for martinez, at the end he gets killed here for being a bad investment, and costing the mets draft picks.. let’s be consistent here.. the same goes for all players…
        • XtreemIcon February 24, 2012 at 10:04 am

          Who kills Martinez?
        • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 10:08 am

          haven’t you been paying attention!!!!???
          • XtreemIcon February 24, 2012 at 10:09 am

            I’ve been paying extremely close attention. It’s clear you haven’t. Who is giving Braun a break? Where is he getting this leeway from?
            • XtreemIcon February 24, 2012 at 10:09 am

              Sorry, wrong thread. I still don’t know where you get this Martinez thing. It was a great deal and everyone says so.
        • Donal February 24, 2012 at 10:12 am

          It is not an excuse, it is a valid reason.

          Also, I don’t see too many people who get pissy over Pedro. Even t agee has expressed approval of that deal.

          Also, it only compares to Santana if Pedro pitched well enough to win a lot mroe games but was let down by the rest of the team.

          That is why pitcher wins is an inaccurate way to rate their performance.
        • t agee February 24, 2012 at 11:07 am

          No one here complains more about wasting the best draft picks we have on useless guys than me but even I’ve never complained about Pedro and I really can’t remember any else doing it either.

          The Ace is the most difficult piece to produce so if you have to go out and get one that’s one thing. Johan and Pedro were good ideas. The problem was that we had to go FA twice for closers, twice for LF, CF, 2B, a #3 SP, and trade for two 1B, 4 RFers, and two catchers and a set up man. The only constants were SS and 3B. that was the problem, not the ace.

          LF could have easily been solved with a combination of Evans and Chavez or a platoon of two non tenders or something like that. LF is the easiest position to take care of and considering that the 2009 pitching staff was the 2nd worst one since 1966, if you were going to spend money………
      • t agee February 24, 2012 at 10:38 am

        The ace is the hardest piece of the puzzle to acquire and I have no problems with the Santana deal and shouldn’t be confused with LF which could be solved with a platoon of two non tenders if need be or Evans and Chavez for example.

        The problem we had was that we had to go FA for two aces, a #3 starter, two closers, a 2B, CF, LFer twice and trade for a catcher, set up man, three RFers and two 1B.

        The only constants were SS and 3B.
• srt February 24, 2012 at 8:20 am

  Hindsight is always 20/20. There were some questions on whether Bay’s defense was good enough or if his offense would be near what he had previously done. But I don’t think anyone could have predicted this big of a drop off.

  I’d love to know what team that unnamed executive was from.
  • trs86 February 24, 2012 at 8:22 am

    LOL, maybe the Red Sox?
    • srt February 24, 2012 at 8:24 am

      Further LOL….was that before or after they signed Lackey and Crawford?
  • stick February 24, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Well, I am on record (at the time, not in hindsight) as not liking the signing. too many red flags, and I did not expect him to ever be worth it. but even I was not expecting this level of putridtude.

    and I agree that Santana was worth the risk. guys like Ollie and Slappy? they were never going to be difference makers, and it was debatable bay could be either, so spending big $$ on LT deals on those guys are what blows your payroll. Not spending big on an elite talent when you have the chance.
• Metsr1 February 24, 2012 at 8:24 am

  It’s time for the annual “Jason Bay looks to rebound” stories in the papers. If I had a dollar for everyone of those stories we’ll see in the next few days…well I’d probably have a lot of dollars. LOL.
  • Donal February 24, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Enough to buy one of those 4% shares.
    • Metsr1 February 24, 2012 at 10:10 am

      That’s too funny!
  • t agee February 24, 2012 at 11:14 am

    No different than the Coleman, Bonilla, Burnitz, Cedeno, Zeile, Ventura, Alomar, Vaughn, Castillo or Perez rebound stories.
    • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 12:46 pm

      LMAO, still second guessing??? we traded:
      ALEX ESCOBAR for Alomar
      Kevin Appier for Mo vaughn
      Todd hundley for Roger Cedeno

      Castillo, Perez, Cedeno and Coleman and bonilla were just head scratching moves, but every time has them agee, stop this nonsense, i showed you yesterday the picks we got for signing alou, here’s the players we lost due to the signing of Players you often cry about:

      For Bonilla the pirates got Danny clayburn… A F’IN BUM!!!!!
      For Coleman the cardinals got Brian Barber… Another BUM!!!!!!
      For Ventura the White sox got Matt Ginter… Another BUM!!!!!!!!
      For Aaron Sele the Rangers got Scott Heard…. Yet Another BUM!!!!!
      For Kevin Apier the A’s got Jeremy Bonderman… Do the Math…
      For David Weathers the CUbs got Brian Dopirak.. Never even Made it..
      For Cliff Floyd the Red Sox got Abe Alvarez… Another one…
      For Tom Glavine the Braves got Jake Stevens… Never even Made it..
      For Pedro Martinez the Red Sox got John Egan.. Never Made it…
      For Beltran the Astros got Tommy Manzella… Another one who never even sniffed..
      For Billy Wagner the Phillies got Kyle Drabek.. Book still out, but did get them halladay so..

      The CORE begs you to please once and for all you stop complaining about what we could’ve had, we could’ve ended up with all those bums as well… the CORE is pleased to help you be quiet about draft picks and how the signing we did prevented us from drafting such and such.. we could’ve ended up with all those bums… all of them…
      • t agee February 24, 2012 at 1:56 pm

        The core LMAO.

        When we re-acquired Cedeno we spent a 3rd round draft choice, same year we spent a #2 on David Weathers. Among the players available after the pick we gave the Cubs for Weathers were Jon Lester (next pick) Jonathon Broxton, Brian McCann, Jesse Crain and Curtis Granderson.

        What makes you think we would have had to select the guy the Cubs did? Or anyone else for that matter?

        Josh Johnson was available with the pick we lost on Cedeno. We didn’t have the chance to draft him.

        Think any of those guys wouldn’t have been better than two more in a long, long list of salary dumps?

        How long was a 34 year old Roberto Alomar supposed to play well for? Forever? Our top prospect for a 34 year old 2nd basemen? Hey maybe Phillips recognized that Escobar was never going to control the strike zone and got off him. More power to him if he did but considering how many future All Stars (Mora, Izzy, Bay, Cruz, Burnett) he did trade away, not to mention those he tried to (Reyes and Wright) I highly doubt his thought process was anything more than just trying to patch a rust bucket.

        Appier cost a #1 pick and was then cashed in for two years of Mo Vaughn. You call that a success?

        Bonilla cost a 2nd rounder that had Todd Helton and Jason Giambi on the board.

        Ventura was a good fit and did have have a great year, two mediocre ones and became a salary dump. Brian Roberts could have been taken with that pick.

        Zeile’s 1st rounder could have been Wainwright or Kelly Johnson.

        Floyd’s 2nd rounder could have been Scott Baker or Andre Either.

        Alou’s first rounder could have been Travis d’Anaurd, Mike Stanton or Freddie Freeman.

        K-Rods first rounder could have been Mike Trout or Tyler Skaggs.

        The point isn’t that we would have drafted any or all of these guys, the point is these are the types of guys we haven’t given ourselves a chance to get. With just one more bat in the lineup 2006, 2007 and 2008 could have been MUCH different not to mention if Wainwright had been on our team.

        We haven’t given ourselves a chance to get this kind of talent on our roster and all too frequently the guys we’ve given that chance up for have sucked, plain and simple; and then become salary dumps and it has been hurting our teams chances for years now and will continue to do so for many more years to come and is a big part of the reason we have four 1st basemen in our starting lineup……..again.

        Even just lucking out on two late 2nd rounders like McCann and Either would have made a HUGE difference for this team and solved area’s where we’ve sucked for 7-25 years respectively and might continue to for years to come.
        • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 2:01 pm

          agee, again, if we knew how players were gonna turn out, don’t you think the mets would’ve did everything in their power to not ever sign a free agent? come on man, how many other teams passed on those guys? you’re SECOND GUESSING now because you know how good those guys turn out, we picked nimmo, i wanted bradley, 3 or 4 years from now we’ll see how they turn out to be.. don’t SECOND GUESS 6 years later man.. stop this nonsense!
          • t agee February 24, 2012 at 2:23 pm

            Alex I’m talking more of the philosophy we’ve been following through the years and just using the different scenarios to show how a different business plan would pay better dividends.

            Of course if we knew we’d be paying guys to help lose baseball games while at the same time undermining our future teams chances we wouldn’t have made those moves. Maybe we’d have made other one’s like Lackey, Figgins, Dunn, Silva, Sorriano or Milton Bradley but the fact is it’s someone’s job to fully evaluate the pros and cons of the decisions made. Properly evaluate the risk and reward and balance the present vs. the future.

            If it was your money manager who came back with these results year after year would you tell him “that’s alright Brent, don’t worry about it I know you were trying. I’m not going to 2nd guess you, I’ll just live on beans and toast for the next 10 years and take on 3 or 4 extra part time jobs.”

            The currency for MLB teams are their prospects just like cash is for us. If you have no cash in your wallet for a slice or two does that mean you should be putting lobster on your credit card or finding a way to get some money in your pocket?

            We’ve been going the lobster route, still have an empty belly and now the credit cards maxed out and what little cash we do have on the way, is just that……….on the way, but at the moment we’re still starving.
            • Alex68 February 24, 2012 at 2:31 pm

              Agee, to end this i will say, i agree with some of what you’re saying, but we also haven’t gotten lucky in the players we have drafted.. since the 1990 our draft picks especially in the first round have become BUST or never even make it out of the minors.. other than david wright most of our first rounders became crap.. other team struck gold, others have not, it’s just how it goes!
              • trs86 February 24, 2012 at 2:37 pm

                Wouldn’t you agree that some teams seem more skilled in both evaluation and development? Perhaps some of our picks might have developed in another system. Example Pelfrey in say San Diego. No pressure and maybe not brought up until he was ready instead of when he wasn’t, during a pennant race in NY.
                • Fonzie13 February 24, 2012 at 11:22 pm

                  Money has always been an issue with the draft as well. We lost a lot of good draft picks over signing bonuses.
• Metstheory22 February 24, 2012 at 8:42 am

  I think he needs to change his uniform number. No one has had any luck with that number for us.
• NJstuckinTX February 24, 2012 at 9:06 am

  If he does put up that somewhat crappy numbers, there can’t be any ramifications for dropping him into a platoon, other than him being cranky. K-Rod was pitching pretty well, so there certainly would be issues had they limited his appearances. JayBay… Not so much. This is why we need see Duda rip it up. If he’s playing like a champion, it’ll be easier to play him every day and then rotate players though Bays spot.

  Or… Bay just hits like he did prior to the Mets and actually earns his money. Ah, the ravings of a lunatic…
  • stick February 24, 2012 at 9:45 am

    His splits last year were terrible. He was worse than useless vs. RHP. If that continues into this year, then yes, he will be finding himself platooning, and the union won’t have a leg to stand on.

    all becomes a moot point of course if he gets hurt and misses significant time next year.

    sadly, he could miss all of 2012, but still have the option vest based on PAs in 2013. So not getting to 500 this year only means that the threshold for 2013 goes from 500 to 600.
• USMF February 24, 2012 at 10:21 am

  I’ll admit that I was wrong about Bay. I wanted to sign him, I thought that he was a better all around player than Matt Holliday, He’d be cheaper than Holliday, He’s a much better defender than Holliday and there was some strong evidence that Holliday’s numbers were inflated by playing in Denver. Despite popular belief, Fenway did not inflate Bay’s numbers, he actually hit better on the road than in Boston.

  I think that Bay’s D is much better than advertised and while he’s not a GG’er, he plays a very good LF. Also, despite his power numbers being weak his first year, he was on place to have a decent (still below par) RBI total for the year. Sadly last year was the real disappointing year, instead of rebounding, he got worse.

  I believe that Bay has handled himself very well, he hasn’t moped or put blame in other places. He’s owned it and still played his @ss off anyways. The big mistake I believe he’s made is the constant tinkering at the plate. I believe that is the reason for his poor production more than anything else.

  I do believe that Bay isn’t done. He may never reach the numbers he put up in Boston, but I think he came reach 30HRs and 100RBI. Going back to his old approach and moving the fences should help him get past the mental block he has been struggling with.

  We’ll never get back the money lost the first two years, but I think there is a realistic chance he’ll come close to earning the rest of his contract.
• Donal February 24, 2012 at 10:24 am

  I was semi right about Bay. I thought he’d put up OK numbers, but I knew he wasn’t going to be the difference maker this team needed for 2010. I knew it was a signing that was just about drumming up press rather than fixing a legitimate need.
• K Maxx February 24, 2012 at 10:25 am

  I cant believe how much I wanted the Mets to sign either Bay or Holliday. When we finally signed Bay I thought we made the better move after seeing that insane deal the Cards gave Holliday. That Holliday deal doesnt look so bad anymore and we got saddled with an albatross.
• Metsie February 24, 2012 at 12:23 pm

  I wouldn’t worry about it just yet….

  First off K-Rod had a limited no-trade clause. Only real difference is K-Rod got to pick what teams he could be traded to, His problem is he never submitted a list!

  Second if Bay is not hitting well by the end of this year he will be platooning and never get that many PAs to vest!
• Kay February 24, 2012 at 12:53 pm

  The guy is here, it’s in our best interest to hope THIS time, he really does bounce back.