Will Allowing PED Users into Hall Send Wrong Message?

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• jessep January 11, 2012 at 2:16 pm

  “Do you think writers should elect guys who allegedly took sterioids? If so, why? Do you think it will send the wrong message to future players/fans if they were elected?”

  Yes but I think if they use educated methods it can be done with class. This constant idea that we need to hide the fact players took steroids and pretend some all time greats never used whatever edge they could find is laughable.

  Keith Hernandez used to blow coke, I never hear a Met fan ever say it tarnishes his place in Mets history or that his performance on the field was impacted by the fact he could have been high as a kite one day.

  Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens made unfortunate decisions in their careers, but they did it to advance their careers not to create them.

  In a perfect world, I’d like to see these 2 guys in particular come forward about their usage as part of a HOF agreement.
  • Brandon Butler January 11, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    I feel that if you use PED’s, then you are a cheater and a disgrace to the game. Therefore, you should not be entitled to be in the Hall of Fame.
  • ghost of omar January 11, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Really, comparing coke to roids….Do you think Keith got better from the cocaine? Did it heal his injuries quicker?
    • jessep January 11, 2012 at 3:21 pm

      Ghost:

      “Really, comparing coke to roids….Do you think Keith got better from the cocaine? Did it heal his injuries quicker?”

      Which injuries did Bonds and Clemens heal from thanks to steroids? Amphetamines can help you overcome fatigue, how is that different?

      If you take an illegal drug and your PERFORMANCE is impacted, how is that different from steroids?

      It’s only different because you see a muscle on Bonds. How is taking steroids to play a game any different than taking amphetamines in order to play the final game of a long road trip? Aren’t they both performance enhancing?

      Tell me what the difference between a baseball player taking speed (illegal) and a baseball player taking steroids is please? I’ve never in my life heard of a player not getting HOF votes due to suspicion of amphetamine use… have you?
      • Joe Diaz January 11, 2012 at 6:32 pm

        I disagree Jessep. A player using Cocain is not going to hit a flyball further.A player stacking HGH and anabolic roids is greatly increasing his strength and will easily add distance.Steroids won’t make a player out of you but it will definitely make a huge difference.Greenies and Coke don’t have the same affect on the overall transformation of the human body.
        • jessep January 11, 2012 at 7:09 pm

          Joe Diaz: Do they enhance your performance in any day? Are they illegal?

          You can’t decide which illegal drug you want to stand on a soapbox about. You can’t say this illegal drug helps too much so we’re really angry about this, but this other drug doesn’t help AS much so we’re gonna pretend it doesn’t exist.
          • Joe Diaz January 11, 2012 at 10:24 pm

            You asked what the difference was between a player using coke and a player using roids.There is a huge difference.There weren’t any players hitting 50 HR’s because of greenies or coke but there were many juicers hitting 40-70 HR’s.It’s not up to me to decide if juicers should get in the Hall or not but you can’t seriously say there is not a huge difference in how they enhance performance.Greenies battle fatigue,roids turn you into He-man.You seem to totally miss my point.I’m not on a soapbox either way but whether you’re talking about cocaine or greenies,neither one of them are going to transform Brett Boone into a 40 HR hitter.Roids will.
            • jessep January 12, 2012 at 9:06 am

              Joe Diaz: right. I’m not at all saying that a player on speed or coke is going to see the same results as a guy on steroids. I’m not saying that at all.

              What I am saying is… do we look at steroid users because they TOOK steroids or because of the RESULTS from taking steroids?

              To me there is a HUGE difference between the two. Is Jeremy Giambi as big of an offender as Jason Giambi or Barry Bonds? If you’re being honest about the subject, the answer has to be yes. Yet their results varied.

              Why is it a big deal? Because they took an illegal substance to help them do something their body naturally can not do. End of story,

              So why is it that players who took amphetamines for example are not seen in the same light as people who took steroids? Why does it matter the result? Aren’t we supposed to be mad they cheated the game and not the box score?

              If you’re only mad at the few players who exceled after taking steroids than you’re not really mad they took steroids, you’re just mad the drugs worked better for them than others. If Bonds didn’t break HR record would you be as mad about his steroid use? You should be…
    • Anthony Marte January 11, 2012 at 3:15 pm

      Well, a lot of players used to take amphetamines because otherwise they would have to take a lot more time off since travel and conditioning back then was a lot worse than it is today. Amphetamines are PEDs just like Steroids are. So yeah, you can compare a stimulant like Coke to steroids.
• Trade Wright for Nolan Arenado January 11, 2012 at 2:23 pm

  Unfortunately, Bonds and Clemens belong in the HOF. They were HOFers before they started using PEDs, which for Bonds appears to have been on 2000, and Clemens appears to have started when he left Boston and joined Toronto. Hopefully, they at least don’t make it in as 1st ballot guys. Although, it would be an interesting story if Clemens and Piazza go in together.
• XtreemIcon January 11, 2012 at 2:34 pm

  Until either the HOF instructs the BBWAA on how to vote players with ties to PEDs or until MLB bans them from the game like Pete Rose for doing so, they’re just any other player. Clemens and Bonds never tested positive for anything. Have you ever cheated on a test in school? I did. I still graduated, and I’m sure everyone else who graduated made the same mistake I did. Until there’s a way determine exactly who did what and put their usage into context, no one should be able to judge player on anything but they know to bed true: their numbers.
• CarlMetFan January 11, 2012 at 2:36 pm

  Sosa will never get in. Bonds and Clemens will probably get in at some point, although if I had a vote they would have to buy a ticket to get into the Hall of Fame. And many of the Hall of Famers already inducted will be incensed if any proven PED players are elected.

  Baseball records are one of the things that set it above and apart from the other sports. And steroids have tarnished the record book beyond recognition. Do you really consider Bonds to be the single season and all time HR king? I still think Aaron and Maris hold the real records. The damage that Bonds, Clemens, et al. have inflicted upon the game will last many years into the future. To reward them with Induction is to spit in the face of any baseball fan who cherishes the game the way it should be played. And it sets a horrible example for generations of kids.
  • ghost of omar January 11, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    If you are going to ban the roid users for having an unfair advantage are you ready to ban all the guys in MLB who played before Jackie Robinson?? You should they sure had an unfair advantage not having to play against some of the best baseball players of their eras.
    • Kay January 11, 2012 at 6:12 pm

      You can’t ban a person on the organization’s policy, no matter how horrific it is. MLB set those rules, not the players themselves.
      • Ghost of omar January 11, 2012 at 6:23 pm

        MLB let the players take roids. Or are you going to deny it because uncle bud is keeping freddy and jeffy and their serf sandy in the game.? And since you obviously don’t know, MLB doesn’t set the rules for induction into the hall. The guy wanted roiders banned for their uinfair advantage but you jump in to condone racism as a response to my question ??? Your statement has no merit.
        • Kay January 11, 2012 at 6:29 pm

          WOW – you are a sick dude, you don’t know how to read, and clearly twist things for your own agenda. I didn’t even come close to saying that, not even close.

          How you can say I condone racism by my response is quite possibly the craziest thing I’ve read today.
          • Joe Diaz January 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm

            Way to twist Kays words Omar Fan.Classless as always.
• srt January 11, 2012 at 2:50 pm

  I’m probably in the minority here.

  There is no way you’re ever going to know who used and who did not. ‘Alleged’ or ‘suspected’ is not good enough to keep a HOF out.

  And going back before the steriod era ball players going back in history used all kinds of substances to gain an advantage.

  IMO, all those not convicted of a crime and all those not suspended or banned since the official ban went into place should get their shot, if deserving.
  Just put an asterisk in Cooperstown spanning those years and call it ‘The Steriod Era’. Let the fans draw their own conclusions.
  • trs86 January 11, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Agreed, I don’t really care anymore about what did happen but what happens from now forward.
• trs86 January 11, 2012 at 2:58 pm

  Ah the classic holier than though debate. Is PED use bad? Duh. Is it the unforgivable sin? LOL.

  How many of you cheated in any of your school classes? How many of you would not take a magic “pill” to advance your career? How many of you would not take a magic pill to keep your job and continue to allow your family to live the good life?
  • srt January 11, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    If you had to take 4 years of Theology in a Catholic HS, you might have contemplated cheating too…..
• Alex68 January 11, 2012 at 3:04 pm

  Now Blowing coke is just as using PED… seriously some guys are getting worst in this blog, from toilet articles, to loving brad eamus the player, to praising alderson for having a good day in 2 years… this is just getting riridiculous!!!
• Nester January 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm

  The Hall of Fame is for the players and it belongs to the players. I dont care about PEDs especially if it brings out the best in them. Why shouldnt players be allowed to enhance their performance, they are performers after all. Bonds and Clemens are first ballot hall of famers, Piazza and Biggio are not.
  • jessep January 11, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    that’ an odd end of your statement. Why would Piazza and Biggio not be? Biggio met the HOF standard by hitting 3,000 hits and Piazza has most career HR for anybody who ever played his position… not sure why they wouldn’t be 1st ballot *IF* you say Roger and Bonds are
• Anthony Marte January 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm

  As long as the writers take one side or the other and stick to it. I really don’t care whether PED users are put in with an asterisk or are not put in at all, as long as we acknowledge their actions in some way. Put ‘em in or don’t put ‘em in. I just hope they stick to one.

  As for players allegedly connected to steroid use in some manner, that becomes a little trickier and should probably be dealt with on a more case by case basis. There’s got to be evidence.
• NJstuckinTX January 11, 2012 at 3:59 pm

  Not keeping score in kiddie baseball games sends the wrong message too!
• Joe D January 11, 2012 at 4:01 pm

  In my opinion, for every year they were suspected of using PEDs or Roids, penalize them by not voting them in for the same number of years. If Clemens shot steroids in his butt for the last 8 years of his career, let him wait 8 years before he gets in.

  Only penalize those who were caught, failed a test (regardless if there was no ban yet they were still illegal), were named in the Mitchell Report, or made admissions to it.
  • jessep January 11, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    He should get an extra year penalty for choosing the butt as a place to shoot up
    • Joe D January 11, 2012 at 4:20 pm

      Good point.
  • Donal January 11, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    “(regardless if there was no ban yet they were still illegal)”

    A lot of thing that HoF members have done are illegal.

    Also, can we take away the votes of writers who knew about the PED use while it was happening?
    • Joe D January 11, 2012 at 6:55 pm

      What about the GMs that turned a blind eye? How do we handle them?
      • jessep January 11, 2012 at 7:28 pm

        The entire sport top to bottom was in on this. it’s like the Penn State thing. I REFUSE to believe that the Board of Trustees just found out about it and fired Paterno because they were shocked and disgusted. Please. They knew. Everybody involved in the school at a high level knew.

        Just like MLB. Writers, execs, players, managers, heck even fans. All knew.

        That’s why I think it’s comical for some to act like they are holier than thou. Like a writer who SAW these players should get to dictate that players fate in the HOF when that player made their columns more readable and they said nothing
      • Donal January 12, 2012 at 9:25 am

        That’s a good question. It just further shows how this is not as black and white as a lot of people make it out to be.
• D.C. January 11, 2012 at 5:08 pm

  I’m totally against players who took PEDs to be inducted to the Hall of Fame. They cheated to pump up their numbers to make it look good. Like I say before in the past, Hank Aaron is the legit home run king not Barry Bonds.
• CarlMetFan January 11, 2012 at 6:25 pm

  I’d be very interested in seeing the age breakdown on the steroid issue. I have a feeling that the older respondents IN GENERAL have a harsher view than the younger ones who grew up with steroids. The older guys witnessed the game before steroids were rampant and a 30 HR season was a nice accomplishment. The younger guys have only known MLB as a league where 50 HRs almost became the norm for a while. I would think this would affect how one looks at steroids and the Hall of Fame vote.

  Thoughts?
  • Donal January 11, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    You have to be a BBWAA member for 10 years before you can vote for the HoF. And you have to be an active baseball writer accepted by you local chapter just to be a member. I don’t think an age gap is that big a deal.

    ” The older guys witnessed the game before steroids were rampant and a 30 HR season was a nice accomplishment. ”

    You mean before we knew about them. Anabolic steroids were first synthesized in the 1930s. We know players were ingesting and injecting all types of things, including animal testosterone since the 1860s. It is a pretty reasonable bet that there was a Victor Conte running around in “the Good Ole Days”.

    And those older guys have no problems with players who used other substances (greenies and such).
    • CarlMetFan January 11, 2012 at 7:45 pm

      Donal, I wasn’t talking about the writers. I was talking about the fans. Are younger fans more accepting of steroid users in the Hall than older fans? That’s my question. And BTW, I did say “before steroids were rampant…” Do you really think steroids were rampant in the 60s and 70s? Or the decades before? I really don’t think so. All you have to do is take a look at the physiques of the players from those decades.
      • Donal January 12, 2012 at 9:32 am

        You can also look at the diet and exercise routines. A lot of things have changed. Maybe players just learned how to take better advantage of the PEDs they were using.

        We know Babe Ruth injected himself with ram testosterone. We know players took whatever pills or “medicine” a guy in a lab coat gave them to help them play better. We know steroids have been around since the 1930s. We know steroids were used in Olympic events during the 1960s (that is when it started going public anyway).

        All of that is circumstantial and open ended, but so is a lot of the “evidence” we have now.
        • jessep January 12, 2012 at 9:35 am

          Wasn’t Mantle’s 61 season interupted by “Dr. Feelgood” the same guy who would inject JFK to make him so high that his insanely painful back didn’t hurt anymore?

          That’s how he ended up in the hospital right? You never, EVER hear about the use of drugs being a stain on Mantle.
          • XtreemIcon January 12, 2012 at 9:38 am

            You can read all about it in the Last Boy. Also about how Willie Mays admitted to taking a handful of colored pills that he had no idea what they were.
            • jessep January 12, 2012 at 9:44 am

              It’s never ending. People act like Barry Bonds and Company are the first to ever try to get an edge with something artificial and illegal.
              • jessep January 12, 2012 at 10:04 am

                weird, just saw this on twitter 2 seconds ago

                http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/12/2700688/mickey-mantle-hall-of-fame-steroids
                • Joe D January 12, 2012 at 10:31 am

                  My comment on that thread:

                  Rob, you’re a smart guy so I’m disappointed that you would take such a simpleton’s view on this.

                  Just because a few cheats got in lets keep bringing them in in truckloads? Really?

                  Instead of saying hey a few got in, but lets install some better measures so it doesn’t happen again, you want to keep doing whats wrong?

                  Thank God you’re not in politics.

                  BTW, whatever happened to Bill James Classic Baseball?
          • Donal January 12, 2012 at 9:40 am

            The rumor is that Mantle received a steroid injection with a dirty needle and had an infection or something. The story goes that Mantle really didn’t know what was in the needle, just that the team told him to trust the doctor.
• tlagee January 11, 2012 at 9:13 pm

  Gammons: “…the Hall of Fame cannot be the Hall of Fame without them”.

  Really Peter? Gammons loves his Boston Red Socks. And he’s giving his opinion on Clemens? Hell, Gammons ghost wrote “Rocket Man” for Clemens. He can’t very well say that Clemens belongs and Bonds doesn’t so instead he says they both belong in the Hall Of Fame. A bit of a conflict of interest, don’t ya think?

  And, with Gammons thinking, how can the Hall be the Hall without Pete Rose?

  Gammons is a mouthpiece for those in baseball who want to float a story line. He’s not much more.

  As far as should steroids use prevent people from reaching the Hall? Well, we have cheating, particularly with Celmens and Bonds who simply didn’t want their age to stand in the way of their abilities. And you have massive lying that effects their family, their former teams and the fans.

  Bonds and Clemens simply didn’t want to grwo old. They wanted to excell way past their use by date. So screw the Mickey Mantles who left baseball in their mid-30′s. These guys actually performed better on the roids at advanced ages.

  The shame is that both would have been hall of famers if they didn’t take the roids.

  They should both be in the new wing of the hall which puts stars known to have taken ped’s and leave it at that.
• Dan January 11, 2012 at 10:21 pm

  I don’t think they deserve a plaque in the hall of fame. They tainted and tarnished the game and its records. It would clearly send the wrong message because your saying its OK to use steroids you can still make the hall of fame. Their should be a wall of fame!
• nathan January 12, 2012 at 8:42 am

  It’s an interesting debate. Are clemens and Bonds infamous throughout the country? Then by their own right they are Fameous. Seriously though the hall of fame is not about numbers it’s about accomplishment and moving the game forward. Piazza is a stand up guy so is Bagwell. They were never indicted or even really alleged to be cheaters. Both had a significant impact on the game. One can draw a million comparisons from one player getting in and another not. We all have seen it. The old timers may have been using all kinds of drugs. We will never know and maybe that is the point. Getting caught or dragging your sport into scandle is enough to tarnish your image and the image of baseball. I have been in favor of voting in McGwire for years but am slowly backing off from that position. Sosa was a joke Bonds was an @ss. I don’t know why the Hall has to be a popularity contest but it is and some of these guys will get the shaft for sure but that is life. Piazza Biggio Bagwell guys like that were positive faces for baseball when things looked cloudy. They all had amazing careers and never wagged their fingers at senators. They deserve to be enshrined.
• Sammy Garcia January 12, 2012 at 9:05 am

  If either Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds ever get elected into the HOF, then Igor Gonzalez will have to get another opportunity and must be re-installed in the ballots, he was one of the best player and because of Canseco’s allegations on his book his career accomplishment got tarnished…so let’s be fair if they want to send all these guys to Cooperstown, then give the same opportunity to Palmeiro, Igor and so many good players that brought a lot of entertainment to many fans…