Tom Seaver On Pitch Counts and Gil Hodges’ HOF Chances

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• jessep January 22, 2012 at 10:08 am

  I actually found these more informative to be honest

  Q. How will the Mets do?

  A. They have to have a game plan. And when they hired Sandy Alderson, I’m sure he brought a game plan with him. You have to hand that responsibility to someone who has been in the arena and Sandy has been there. I’m sure he’ll do a good job. And any time you rebuild, you have to have patience.

  Q. What do you think about their pitching prospects, including Jeurys Familia, Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler?

  A. I’m a huge advocate of pitching. You have to have good pitching as the solid core, the foundation. It keeps you in every game.

  Go back to ’69. We were in every game we played. That raises the level of play of everybody else on the ball club. Because you’re going to win by one run, or two runs. So that makes you hit the cutoff man, move the runner over and do the things that fundamentally make the ball club win. I’m sure that Sandy will be very strong at that.
  • 72MetsFan January 22, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Haven’t both of those items been debated ad naseum on this site? Honestly, every time I post something it turns into some sort of slugfest about Alderson and it’s always the usual suspects. I thought pitch counts and Gil Hodges would be a refreshing and welcome departure from the same old, same old..
    • srt January 22, 2012 at 11:09 am

      All he did was cut and paste 2 questions and answers from Seaver. I’m not seeing any slug fest.

      That and all posts across all blogs usually morph into some other debate that sometimes has little to do with the original article. That’s kind of normal when you have a group of passionate fans together debating anything and everything involving their favorite team.
      • jessep January 22, 2012 at 11:26 am

        All I was saying was that the most famous and honored Met of all time is on board with what the current game plan is with the Mets. To me, that is worth mentioning. No slug fest, no flames, just mentioning the part of the interview I found most interesting. Didn’t mean for it to turn you off or disrespect you
  • K Maxx January 22, 2012 at 11:35 am

    He brought a game plan? Is that what this is? So slashing payroll from $147 to $90 mil was his game plan? Letting Reyes go was his game plan? Replacing him at leadoff with Torres is his game plan? Seaver said is so it must be true.
• any January 22, 2012 at 9:30 am

  interesting that he did have a pitch count. Flies in the face of the common perception that it is a new concept.

  I think the issue isn’t limiting a guy, it is setting the bar too low, and treating it as a rule not a guideline.

  100 just seems low, especially these days when so many guys seem to hit that in 5, 6 innings tops. Maybe 135 is high, but something like 120-125 before you start to worry about it?

  that, and it really should have more to do with how a guy is performing. If he is throwing easy and feels good, and getting the job done, let him go. If he is at 100 and seems to be laboring, his arm slot is dropping, etc. then yank him.
  • 72MetsFan January 22, 2012 at 10:33 am

    I agree. The 100 pitch threshold is too low and 125 would be better. All these bullpen roles that didn’t exist back then also makes it too easy for a manager tom pull a starter earlier than he has to.
• DaveUpstateNY January 22, 2012 at 9:52 am

  I’m sure the 135 pitch count was not literal, but approximate or a goal for each game. I saw the guy pitch enough times to know they didn’t just come out and yank him in 7th, 8th or 9th seemingly out of nowhere, for no reason at all, other than he reached 135.
• theonlymaskman January 22, 2012 at 10:16 am

  Regarding the Hodges reply, I hope that Seaver will do everything he can to campaign for Gil and promote his cause among all his peers in the HOF and among all the powers in the BB establishment.
  • 72MetsFan January 22, 2012 at 10:44 am

    The problem is that it’s not just one or two people whose minds he has to change on that veterans committee. So many of them just dont see Hodges the way Mets fans do. I think one day he will get in but it may still take a few more years until that happens.
    • theonlymaskman January 23, 2012 at 8:07 am

      I’ve been told that the problem is there are too many Dodgers from the 50′s in already with Jackie, Campy, Pee Wee, and Duke. But Gil has even more credentials with his management accomplishments with the Mets turning around a losing franchise culminating with a championship in ’69. He was a stellar role model and an HOF quality player both at the plate and on the field. What more can they want? That’s why I think that Tom really needs to work the veteran BB community to turn this around. He needs to do as much for Gil now as Gil did for him when he was a young pitcher. I’d like to sse this happen while Joan is still alive so at least his wife gets the appreciation during her lifetime.
• srt January 22, 2012 at 11:04 am

  The Rangers have a game plan in place in the minors involving a program for their pitchers with a goal towards a 4 man rotation as opposed to 5, starters pitching deeper into the game, higher pitch counts and doing it all with less injury risk to pitchers.

  Not sure if this was in place before Ryan got involved but you’d have to think his pitching experience has something to do with it. The program is only a couple of years old, has something to do with long tossing and conditioning. Going to be interesting to see if it’s successful.

  100 pc cutoff has been the standard for awhile now. I would think pitch counts should be tailored for each pitcher though, not some across the board standard.
  • Donal January 23, 2012 at 10:56 am

    “The Rangers have a game plan in place in the minors involving a program for their pitchers with a goal towards a 4 man rotation as opposed to 5, starters pitching deeper into the game, higher pitch counts and doing it all with less injury risk to pitchers.”

    I’ve read that there’s no proof at all that the extra day rest helps a pitcher.

    The problem is, the lat team to use a 4 man rotation for a season was the royals in the mid 90s and those guys would regularly throw 130 pitches. It was common for Appier to be around the 150 mark. That is the other extreme end.

    The theory is that how much they do on the days pitchers throw has more effect on them than the extra day off.

    I really would like to see what a well handled 4 man staff could do. Taylor a pitch count to each guy, Have the pitching coach and training staff watch them like hawks. Build a decent bullpen. Normally, that 5th guy in the rotation is a swing man who is occupying the mound a few innings a week. I’d rather give his starts to the 4 better ptichers and let him work long relief in a deeper bullpen.

    “100 pc cutoff has been the standard for awhile now. I would think pitch counts should be tailored for each pitcher though, not some across the board standard.”

    I think they are, it is just that 100 is a starting point and seems to be where most guys are in fact losing their effectiveness.

    Of course, it also begs the question: Is it better to pull a guy a batter too soon or a batter too late?
    • srt January 23, 2012 at 11:19 am

      Wish I could remember where I read that article last year on the Rangers pitching plan.

      It said something about that extra day off – in it not being necessary if the proper conditioning has been in place for a pitcher’s other normal off days.

      As far as when to pull pitchers…that’s always the $20 question for a manager.
      • Donal January 23, 2012 at 11:25 am

        I actually just asked Jason Parks on twitter and he said it was possible but not very likely. He’s tapped into them fairly well.

        He also said he doesn’t see 4 man rotations being used in the current game.

        Pity. I think it could really work for some teams.
        • Hank January 23, 2012 at 11:30 am

          I have a buddy who’s a huge Phillies fan. And he claims that he once heard Roy Halladay talk about pitch counts being overrated in the modern game. That pitchers should utilize their off days better. Apparently what he does is set a predetermined number of pitches for each week. Then you correspond you pitch count during starts with your predetermined number for the week. It seems simple, almost too simple. But I think most baseball guys are outsmarting themselves with this.

          I’m all for protecting young players. And I even buy (a wee bit) the whole it’s the stress on the pitcher more than how many pitches he’s thrown or throwing. But this seems to work well for Halladay, so I wonder why not adopt it. Set your weekly pitch count for 400 or whatever the number is supposed to be. Throw more or throw less depending on how much you throw in starts.
          • Donal January 23, 2012 at 12:11 pm

            Because it is Halladay. What works for him will not work for everyone. And what he described isn’t really different than what is happening, he just counts differently.

            As has been said, use 100 as a starting point and adjust depending on the individual pitcher and game circumstances.
• Donal January 23, 2012 at 10:46 am

  I agree with Seaver. Also, I’ve said before pitch counts are nothing new, despite what some Real Baseball Men like to say. It is another one of those things that the public recently elarned about and thinks is revolutionary.

  He’s right that there is no One Pitch Count to Rule Them All. Most coaches use 100 has a starting point and adjust it from there for each individual pitcher. A 28 year old stud can go 130 on a good day without thinking about it. A rookie just getting called up or an older guy coming off a surgery doesn’t get the long leash, though.
  • Donal January 23, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Although, tom did show his age the the “spit out by a computer” comment.