12
2012
Sandy Almighty
An article by 
The other day I jokingly suggested that I was going to have Kelly design a special graphic for Lord Sandy – a moniker that frequently appears on our comment threads. 
I even asked if we should make one with a halo or without…
Well as luck would have it, longtime friend of MMO and frequent commenter, Mr. North Jersey decided to take on the challenge and offered up this clever rendition:
Nice job… I love the hint of Mr. Met in the role of the Creator!
You can catch more of Mr. North Jersey at his site; Real Dirty Mets.
For more of MNJ’s movie poster parodies click here!
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this just made my day!!!!!
never have i seen so much love for a GM that hasn’t won anything since the 80′s, thinks small market and as a GM has a 7 season LOSING streak under his belt.. .. is forbidden to criticize him for his horrendous offseasons, if you do you’re a hater who don’t know about baseball, amazing to tell you the truth, the WORST GM IN the history of the NY METS and all this people still defend him saying he had a good day because he brought in 2 bullpen guy and traded for another..
Alex, I agree with you no all your criticism of “Lord Sandy”…his record as GM in MLB isn’t very impressive and it’s pretty obvious that he’s not here to win, but to cut costs and get the team back in the black. It’s also amazing that people are so in love with his supposed “Money Ball-Saber philosophy” that they blindly love everything he’s doing without really looking into his moves objectively. I think it comes from the Saber-trend that’s getting bigger (and a little overblown) that the Mets have never been known for…people have wanted “smarter” thinking from this organization for so long that they fall in love with the idea that that’s what the Mets are now about.
I would amend one part of your statement though…while I don’t think Sandy is making “genius” or even “good” moves… He’s not the Worst GM in Mets history, rather I see him as the GM in the “Worst period in Mets history”.
This is the time in Mets history that the system should be working in their favor. They should have tons of money to spend and should be contending every year. Even back in the 90′s and early 2000′s, when the team was bad, there was plenty of hope and reason to love these those losers.
Now the team is going bankrupt, the owners are grasping at very little thing possible to keep the team. Our best pitcher my never be effective again, our best player is on a three year decline, our biggest free agent signing is from two years ago and has sucked and one of our top five all time players left without even an effort to keep him.
Sandy is doing his job exactly they way he’s supposed to…unfortunately he’s not here to build a winner, he’s here to keep the Mets under Wilpons control.
The second half post is good and I agree with it, but the first part I would amend. There’s no such thing as a moneyball philosophy. Sandy’s not using moneyball because it doesn’t exist in the realm of baseball. It’s just a buzzword used by those people who want the GM to spend money the owners aren’t giving him.
Right ‘It’s also amazing that people are so in love with his supposed “Money Ball-Saber philosophy”
Those are 2 totally different things. If you’re questioning the use of sabermetrics in a front office than you need to turn your attention to probably 75% of the sport if not more who user sabermetrics.
That is what baffles me about some people here. You act like the only people in baseball using sabermetrics are Billy Beane & Sandy Alderson.
Hey Jessup, how are u bud, hope you are well. Moneyball is not the philosophy, you are correct. It’s a moniker assigned to basing the construction of a team based off a sabermetric philosophy. Sabermetrics is a fine philosophy, but it doesn’t replace a scouts eyes and obsevation, it’s just another tool to be used in conjunction with the scouts eyes. It’s not an end all be all philosophy purely based on the science of statistical
probabilities. You maybe are too young to understand that but it’s true. It’s like six sigma in a manufacturing business, a great tool to reduce cost, identify problems, increase opportunities for improvements, but it doesn’t replace common sense and an understanding of how something is made. It’s a philosophy of building a team based off the sole projections of cost per win, akin to a facet of six sigma
building a product based on cost per unit. It ‘s
a tool that every team uses, even Omar did
this. If you don’t believe that, recall Bay being signed. The Mets used power projections based off how far his HR’s were hit, to what field, etc, how did that work out? Sometimes, the projections and statistical probabilities don’t take into account a players’ confidence, a players decline, his health, the possibility that his eyesight is in decline, that his bat speed slows because he changes his training regimen, alters his swing because of a variety of factors…Realize that. Alderson, has made 1
egood trade for Wheeler. Why are you so
enamored with him and with his sabermetric
philosophy? Every team including the Mets have long employed this philosphy. Omar did it as well…It doesn’t replace the scouts eyes
kiddo. Do you know who Grady Fuson is? He
was the head scout in Oakland. Billy Beane
fired him. Beane was wrong for doing so. Fuson was hired by Texas, and has gone on to
help the Rangers procure enough talent to
appear in 2 straight world series.
Instead of Beane trying to explain to Fuson and teach him what he was trying to do, he allowed arrogance to play a part with Fuson, an excellent judge of young talent to leave…Remember this, Advanced stats should be used as a tool, not the whole philosophy behind player procurement. I’ve said it one time and i’ll say it again… Alderson is no more a savior than Dick Cheney was a quail hunter. His purpose is too emphasize scouting, rebuild the farm system, and reduce costs. Omar was trying to do the same thing, except his charge was to keep the MLB level team competitive and putting fannies in the seats as well. He was using advance stats as well. It takes time
to rebuild a farm system from the level Steve
Phillips left it in, and all the while keeping the
MLB team playoff caliber…The Mets farm was
in much better shape at the end of Omar’s
tenure, as opposed to Phillips. And now, there
is some talent Omar procured becoming ready
now. Alderson presided over a team with a bunch of PED users, did very little as Padres chief, and just Frankly isin’t as impressive or as smart as u think pal. He just isin’t. But I hope he does better, because he’s the GM of my team.
THIS!
…is incorrect on so many levels.
Moneyball is a title of a book and the movie that is based on it. It is not a philosophy. It has more to do with finding hidden value than any method of statistical analysis (sabermetrics). Sabermetrics was simply one of the methods they used to find that hidden value.
“Maybe you’re too young to…” Is something pretentious people say to put down opposing ideas so they don’t actually have to address the issue. jessup’s or anyone’s age is immaterial. The only currencies here are ideas and the ability to articulate them.
Also, Beane didn’t fire Fuson. In fact, they had a pretty good working relationship. Michael Lewis needed someone to personify the opposition to Beane’s methods for the book and Fuson got the shaft. Both Beane and Fason have said what a disservice the book did to him.
Beane and Depodesta both worked with the scouts and Depo even went to a scout training school. The biggest opponent to the traditional scouts was in fact Ricciardi, the former player who became a scout. He saw the inside of the system and where he thought the problems were.
Fuson wasn’t fired. He left Oakland of his own accord and got a good offer in Texas. He was supposedly going to be next in line for the GM job, but Tom Hicks renegged on that promise and forced Fuson out in 2004. In 2005, he went to work in San Diego for…guess who.
And guess where Fuson went after San Diego. Ya, he hated and was disrespected by Beane so much, he is working for him again.
As for your accusaitons on Alderson
1) His As team had 2 confirmed hitters on PEDs
2) Those teams won with pitching
3) If you thin kthere were on 2 guys in MLB using steroids in the 1980s, then I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
4) The Padres’ ownership refuses to spend money.
5) jessep is in fact not a proponent of sabermetrics, so you have no idea what he or anyone else thinks.
Of course Donal you would be argumentitive. I think you misundertand the point here. I said ” a moniker” it is a book. People use it to describe the whole of that philosophy, which is the only point I was really trying to make, it is a tool, just like six sigma in manufacturing. I know that. Age is immaterial, you r correct. The argument about everyone using sabermetrics isin’t.
Every team, including Omar with the Mets
used it. Fuson did leave Oakland, he
did draft alot of the players who became the core of the Texas foundation for success. U may not understand the politics of baseball, or the ‘old boy’ network that it is, but u never burn a bridge behind u, because u WILL be blackballed. So naturally Fuson and Beane will say their disagreements were overblown
or overstated. They were at odds
philosophocally. That is why Grady is back in Oakland which only proves the point about politics and burning bridges. Did u hear Minaya trash the Wilpons or Bernazard for that matter, nope, not if they wanted a job again.. Sabermetrics is just a tool, It s broken down further to it’s infintesmal definition by you saying ‘hidden value’ but it’s about cost per win, whether you want to admit it or not. It is employed by EVERY TEAM. Small markets used it to try to level the playing fieldwith big market big money, and now its a way of doing business just like lean and six sigma is used in manufacturing by big and small business. Jessup I have read, is a proponent, since I WAS WRITING FOR MMO almost 2 years ago, but stopped to write a book about unionism. Thats my viewpoint, and if u dont like it, when u accrue some more wisdom, don’t see everything as either this way or that, realize there is ambiguity in almost everything and discover Everything is relative in running businessess’ today, u will understand what I was truly trying to say.
I’m not argumentative. You are factually wrong.
And the only people who refer to “moneyball” as a strategy or a philosophy are usually the ones trying to build a strawman to take down new ideas.
I understand what a Country Club MLB is. that has nothing to do with the fact that Lewis needed a villain for his book and Fuson fit the role. Even Lewis has inferred this. All the actual evidence (ie people who were there) points to a pretty decent relationship. Yes, Fuson didn’t understand or perhaps like the methods Beane was attempting, but they met each other half way, like any group of professionals.
Sabermetrics has nothing to do with cost per win. That was used well before sabermetrics became vogue. Sabermetrics is deeper statistical analysis than traditionally used. And I’m well aware it is used by every team.
I have no idea why you needed to capitalize that you wrote here 2 years ago. Did you think that would change the fact that you are wrong and acting pretentious?
“That is my view points and if you don’t like it, when you accrue some wisdom”
Wow, so if I don’t agree with what you say, I need to go accrue some wisdom? As if you being factually wrong isn’t the problem? Maybe I would have a better chance to understand what you were “truly trying to say” if you did a better job of saying it.
The problem isn’t that I see everything in black or white, or that I don’t understand fluidity and dynamics in an industry.
The problem is you just made a bad post.
I m not being pretentious, I will not argue semantics or ambiguities with u. I will not get into a pissing contest with u. LOL. My comment was directed to Michael aka Jessep. If u are scouring the board, looking to argue, find alex or whoever else u argue with. LOL. Wisdo is something accrued over time…i will show wisdom by not arguing with u. I stated a fact about writing for MMO, because if u read some of my past posts u will see in fact, I just want the Mets to win, don’t care how it’s done, have waited 26 yrs to see it again, and apparently won’t see it for quite a bit longer…LOL. YOU WIN YOU ARE RIGHT, EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG…be well.
Yeah Mike, Donal isnt being argumentative, he’s just being an egotistical know it all who can only see things in black and white. Everything that doesn’t fall into line with his understanding or lack of that, is simply factually wrong. Donal wasn’t here two years ago so let me bid you fair warning because he will group you with everyone else who has challenged his superior grasp of knowledge on the whole of baseball. Once challenged, he will attack your every post like a beast from hell.
Maniac: If you’re going to butt into people’s conversations with attacks on specific individuals, you may want to think twice before you come on here with your soapbox claiming I or anybody else is obsessed with another commenter. Tell me what your post brings to this conversation except another excuse to insult Donal or myself?
Didn’t think so. Thanks for the entertainment though.
Mike Lloyd: Good to hear from you…
I’m a proponent of gathering the most information possible to help you make an educated decision. I’m a proponent of not giving up everything for a 3 year window of success.
If you tell me a GM is only looking at a stat sheet with sabermetrics and making decisions on personnel based on that, and that alone… I will gladly tell you he is doing something wrong.
This idea that I have to be a certain age though to understand front office baseball is a little absurd.
The best baseball front offices in today’s era are ones who incorporate all measures of baseball personnel and be able to sustain a credible farm system while winning at the big league level. That includes sabermetrics. If some people here were GMs they’d be working on typewriters because “they worked in the past just fine” while other teams pass them by because of their willingness to expand on “what they know.”
I don’t come here and tout xFIP or UZR or even WAR when I talk about which players I like, so telling ME that I am a big proponent of sabermetrics is laughable. I just don’t cover my eyes and ears and scream to the heavens when somebody tells me they use it.
People mock the use of sabr stats and then choose to ignore the fact that GM’s who win championships use them. Just because you use them doesn’t mean you know how to use them. If one guy constantly fails using saber stats that doesn’t mean they don’t work. It just means he’s not good at it. Just like if 1 scout is better than another at finding talent, it doesn’t mean scouting doesn’t work.
Hey J, glad to see ure well. U are correct about the age thing. I shouldn’t have made it part of what I was trying to say. I know ure on the same page with me about the information…my argument is that it was being used by Omar, just selectively. U did seem in the past to be more of a proponent which I did not mean to make sound like a bad thing, I myself identify OBP as a reason to cut ties with Francour in a story I wrote in May of ’10…The key is using the tools and knowledge available to HELP make decisions. Not just basing them soley on the sabr stats. I like u, could give a rats ass about UZR OR XFip, but as an indicator, another tool in the process, that’s fine, just not as the end all be all in making a decision. For example: Lets say RHP A throws the same number of innings and has nearly the same stuff as RHP
B, they have identical stats nearly hypothetically, and its broken down to its most infintesmal statistical analysis. Both RHP’s are FA’s, both want 11.5 mil. 5 yr. Contracts, they both are 28. The sabr stats say RHP A has better advance stats RHP B has better mechanics and will be more reliable because of his better mechanics in 4 and 5 of the deal, how does sabr tell u his mechanics are better? They dont. Only the scouts eye can see the mechanical flaw. Thats all I m trying to get at. It got a little twisted in what I was trying to say, and after going back in the thread, I realize it was more of what others were arguing, not u. I just want the Mets to win. I could care less who the GM is,
but it seems there is alot of people out there
who believe Alderson brought this philosophy
here with him, Omar was using it as well.
Lloyd: I never said or suggested sabermetrics were not being used anywhere prior to Alderson arriving here so I’m not sure why your message is geared towards me?
If anything, if you believe Minaya used sabr (which I am sure to some degree he did but less than most) then your beef is with the folks who are pretending that Alderson brought sabermetrics to Flushing and attack anybody who looks at a stat and labels them “saber heads” because they cannot keep up with a healthy debate with those folks.
Wow, u seem a little more thin skinned than u used to be. No offense intended bud, I just will refrain from reading or commenting on your stories or comments. Wow…lol
you took my response as… thin skinned? that’s odd?
just out of curiosity, were they calling Cashen the worst GM in mets history after ONE season and ONE draft? ya know, before he won the world series. You can’t call Sandy the worst GM in history because he didn’t win the world series in one year on the job, after one draft, with no money to spend, after inheriting the mess that he did. Hell you guys were ready to hang him after ZERO drafts two months into the job. Cashen did it in six years. Can we give Sandy half that time, or maybe even at least a THIRD of that time?
You guys are so bent on how much you hate this guy because he’s not doing everything you guys would do (Thank God), that you aren’t realizing how absolutely unfair it is. If you’re going to hate anyone hate the Wilpons for putting Sandy in a position where he financially CAN’T do the things you would want him to do even if he wanted to. Something you guys still aren’t getting because you’re thick-headed. Name me one other business that spends more when they’re in debt up to their chins.
If he signs Jose Reyes, he literally cannot do anything else in the off season. Yet we’re still clamoring about how he “didn’t give him an offer”. ya know, because Jose Reyes is worth a bullpen, a fourth outfielder, starting pitchign depth, and middle infield depth. He’s that good. You want him to put a winner out there, but you want him to spend spend spend one or two guys and have nothing left to do anything else. You people are walking contradictions. It’s pathetic.
We’re not defending him because we’re “sandy apologists” and he can do no wrong. We’re defending him because you guys are completely unfair in your expectations thus far into his tenure. Again, it’s been ONE year and ONE draft.
By the way, if Sandy has the same number of rings as our best GM ever, how can he be the worst mets GM ever?
and also by the way…
He’s not the Worst GM in Mets history, rather I see him as the GM in the “Worst period in Mets history”.
that is a fantastic line and USMF is absolutely right.
Ya, I wonder what this place would have looked like in the early 80s, especially after the Mazilli trade.
1 championship, 2 great season, had there been wild card we’d be 6 out of 10 years in the playoffs with more chance to win WS with the pitching staff and team we had.. that is what would’ve happened in the 80′s..
That didn’t start until 1984. It took Cashen 4 years to put up a winning season.
Again, what would this place have looked like when Cashen first got here? Especially after the Mazilli trade?
the thing is, cashen WANTED TO WIN, if alderson had traded reyes for pitching and wright for more pitching but little by little keeps adding pieces around those players then is a different story, the man is doing CRAP, and yet is celebrated for rebuilding the bullpen he, himself destroyed.. i mean, seriously, were you even born when all of this was happening…??? did you actually see what was going on???? or you’re going by what you read?
uh-oh, he’s playing the age card.
Prove to me that Sandy doesn’t want to win. Have you heard him say he is purposely sabotaging the Mets? Why do you say that? Because YOU don’t agree with the moves he’s making? Yes let’s go with what Alex68 thinks and not the Harvard grad with a world series ring. Everyone always thinks they can do better. There are many things we just don’t know as the public. How do you even know that anyone even wants to sign here with this mess of an organization, unless they are vastly overpaid? You think free agents are lining up to play for the Mets right now?
“if alderson had traded reyes for pitching and wright for more pitching but little by little keeps adding pieces….”
How do you know that what they think they can get with an extra sandwich round pick (which by the way david wright was) and extra second round pick isn’t better than what they were being offered for Reyes at the time? A player whose game is based on speed and was just coming off a major hamstring injury and has already had a major injury on the other, and who would be a half year rental?
Trading David Wright now would be dumb because he has ZERO VALUE. you think teams are lining up to give us their best prospects for a guy on a three year decline coming off a broken back, who can maybe hit like he did four years ago if their lucky? You want to sell low on our franchise player? and Sandy is the one sabotaging the Mets???
and how has he done crap?
He got a team’s best pitching prospect who could potentially be a core player for years to come, for two months of a 34 year old outfielder with a bad knee.
Had one of the best drafts in a long, long time.
If you can’t see how the Pagan trade makes this team better I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you should be on a how to play the game of baseball website instead of a mets blog.
He did his best to upgrade obviously their biggest weakness last year, with what he had available to him. Are you honestly telling me Ramirez/Francisco/Rauch isn’t better than what we had at the end of last year? If he signs Reyes, we go in with the exact same team as last year. How does that make the team better?
That’s really not too bad for a year’s work to try and make a very broke and very struggling organization better. Do you really think it’s that easy? maybe that’s the problem here.
Hey Chris, how are u? Every one knew Cashen back then. Cashen even told everone it would take 5 years. He did it in 4. Cashen was able to pick peoples pockets. Back in those days, young players weren’t as highly valued as they are now. His trades of Mazilli for Darling and Terrell, of trading for Sid Fernandez, of dealing for a young lefty named Ojeda, just would not occur today. His trading of Ownby and Neil Allen for Hernandez, dealing Floyd Youmans, Herm Winningham, Mike Fitzgerald and Hubie Brooks for a HOF catcher not happening. It will take Alderson 7 or 8 years to do what Cashen did in 4.
I dislike when people bring up the 70s and 80s and try to compare it to todays game. The game has changed… front office execs don’t give prospects away like they used to and there is much more accountability for GMs than in the past because of sites like this etc.
If you’re looking at the early 1980s and saying “why can’t Alderson do what Cashen did” then you’re just living in the past and not in reality.
Yes, Mike, guys like us from the 60′s and 70′s arent grounded in reality. Nobody gives prospects away anymore like Zack Wheeler. LOL
Chris – thanks for saying what many of us have been for a long time, but obviously were not capable of articulating it as well.
You can’t label a GM best or worst considering all the variables involved right now. I despise the Wilpons and fully blame them for all of this. Their ego’s are too big to let go and sell. The premise of Sandy not wanting to win is just an immature excuse for not really facing up to what is going on with the organization in it’s entirety.
Congats on a truly factual post!!!!!!!!
USMF, Fair enough, the thing is, people in THIS site are for some weird reason in love with everything he does, seriously, since the man took over you have gotten people (who happen to love sabermetrics and moneyballing) writing articles about the man and all his great moves, when the fact is, he hasn’t done anything to even help this franchise nor has tried to make it competitive. guys like craig and jesseP have make a lot of us fans actually like the man less because crappy post writing about he’s had GREAT OFFSEASON and HE HAD A GOOD DAY when from the get go i’ve been saying he’s here to strip the payroll to help the wilpons in their finacnial issues, while others mock me at the time is obvious to them now he’s here for that and dismissed the fact he’s brought nothing but crap here.. is funny how he’s talking about payroll and whatnot yet 3 gm’s are getting paid to be in the front office and doing absolutely NOTHING, what’s the need for 3 gm’s if nothing is getting accomplish? seriously.. if people from the get go would’ve seen this man for what he was here instead of worshipping his saber ways, i don’t think there’d be such a debate about how much he sucks as a gM..
So if the Mets have 3 GMs does that mean they also have 2 Managers since Bob Geren used to be a Manager?
Or does it only apply when you feel like it?
regardess if they use sabermetrics or not, sandy is not here to biuld a winner.he has done hardly anything to improve the team,other than getting lucky and getting a low a ball prospect for beltran.who knows how wheeler will even turn out.who cares about sabermetrics.it still doesn’t change the fact alderson is not here to win.i can’t stand the guy cuz he’s a two faced lier.
He’s not here to build a winner in 2012 is a fair point. But saying he has no interest in making the team a winner down the road is not true at all.
When you say he’s not interested in building a winner, who’s decision is that? Why is he operating the way he is? Because it’s fun?
Did he get his reputation (which despite what you wish, he has a very good rep in baseball) because he likes losing and takes jobs with teams just to see how bad he can make them?
But if you knew Sandy wasn’t here to build a winner and just stabalize the finances, why are you so up in arms about him doing just that?
cuz i’m not willing to watch them strip the team down to a bunch of minor leagers and finish in last place for the next 7 years.like i said i find the guy insufferable and he’s nothing but a lier,all spin,and i just get sick of people defending him like they are his personel fluffer or something.the wilpons are scum and sandy was hired by them(or forced to) by another P.O.S. all parties involved are P.O.S.I don’t want them around the team i love and followed for almost 30 years.this seems like taking ten steps back to move one step forward.
When you understand that there’s no such thing as “moneyballing” and that what they’re doing is helping to stabalize the foundation, which only helps the future, you’ll see the big picture. You also need to understand that this organization has one GM, not three. They happen to have former GMs in other positions. But there’s one GM.
And right on cue 2 of the biggest sandy supporters come out to defend him.. this is exactly my point USFM, some of this ppl actually BELIEVE in this man.. seriously, sandy’s wrath must be very powerful or something…
I always love how you act like people who comment on here that aren’t as negative as you are so wrong… even though
you’re usually one of the 1st to be negative about everything from the smell of Alderson’s farts to a minor league contract signed.
Nothing he’ll ever do will make you happy because you refuse to acknowledge what is really going on in Flushing. You’re living in a world of 2005/2006 where everything is hunky dory and the Mets are in as good of shape in the checkbook as anybody else in the league.
You can’t fix a disaster situation with the snap of a finger. You’re expecting everything to just be okay, and it’s not.
No matter who was in here as GM right now, they’d have the same financial restraints.
Sandy doesn’t fart. He’s angelic.
I just don’t understand the mentality of shooting the messenger here – which is all SA is right now.
He didn’t create this mess. We can thank the Wilpons for that.
Big picture, people…..
Right. People act like in Sandy’s interview he said
“Here’s what I wanna do: I wanna cut your team’s payroll in half, then I want to trade away every single good player you have and then I wanna have a terrible draft year after year because you know why? I love losing. I’m Sandy Alderson, people in baseball respect me… why? Because I’m friggin awesome at losing.”
wait you missed the memo. The one where Fred said I kept begging him to spend another $30 mill this year to try and win more games, and he flat out refused. Nope, W-L is not what matters, just getting cheap guys so you could say you got cheap guys.
keep digging, I’m sure you can find that out there someplace!
If I can make a observation here…I’m pretty new to the MMO, but I see comments from a lot of people who are make some very good and intelligent posts. It seems like people are arguing over semantics as much as anything else.
We all know that this team is a mess and is completely broke. We know that the Mets front office has been a mess for a long time and we can make strong arguments that it all points to the Wilpons as the source of the problems. We can agree that until this team has the ability to spend money (even if they don’t spend it) this team will never compete.
We know that Sandy is here to get the team through this finical BS they’re in right now. Some of us hate the moves Sandy does because it’s not about wining, others see it as a necessary evil to fix the team long term. I do agree with both sides, and I think that deep down, most of you do.
It seems the more people hate what Sandy is doing call him out on it which forces people who agree with Sandy’s moves (even if they hate the reason) are forced to defend it harder, which leads the people who hate Sandy’s moves attack harder and so on…and it gets nasty some times and there seems to be a lot of childish and unnecessary name calling
I do worry about the direction because, I don’t think putting a AAAA team on the field will make the team money and they’ll continue to go farther in debt. I also worry about the idea of hoping that pitchers in the lower minors are what will save the team in two to three years. But until there is money, what’s the other option?
We as fans are stuck watching this BS and can only hope this is only temporary. Like I said, I’ve new here, but from what I’ve seem on other sites, it wasn’t like this a few years ago. Mets message boards used to be fun…it was like a big party.
Other then the team sucking and being a laughing stock, the worse thing about the teams situation is what it’s doing to the fans…there will always be disagreements, but this fighting we have now is ridiculous.
That’s just it: not all agree the FO has been a mess for a long time. I’m not even sure some understand the Mets are broke.
Nice post, be careful though. At times a voice of reason is hit the hardest.
Wow. I’ve forgotten what reasonable posts look like.
check out the mother ship. you will find plenty!
anyway, the other key point is realizing there is a future. And if you realize that with the limited resources you aren’t going to be a playoff contender in 2012, then you are best suited working on building a better foundation for a future year when you can be.
better that than making surface moves to try and tread water, which often leads to a sustained run of mediocrity.
Amen brother. Amen.
If you are referring to MB as the mothership and saying it is full of reasonable post… then I know am not so sure you can identify reasonable either.
RDM real. “stick” to that…
“better that than making surface moves to try and tread water, which often leads to a sustained run of mediocrity.”
a la the 2008-2010 New York Mets.
The worst place to be in sports is the middle. since we can’t win now, we’re better off sucking hard anyway for the next couple of years. We’ll be that much better in the future, and probably Wilponless. It’s not a coincidence that the Rays sucked for so long and kept racking up top 2 picks and now they are awesome. and they don’t even spend money on the major league roster. There is a chance we can do it WITH money to spend on the roster, and I am very excited about it. They have already proven they are going to spend in the draft now at least adequately.
would you rather not win now and get top ten picks, or not win now but win a few more games to keep the whiners happy, and get later picks? I think the better option is obvious. Maybe not to some around here.
Ahh, so any directs others what the yhave to want, and accept. the lordship is not lord sandy it is god any. You accept the words of any or you are a bad little metsie. How utterly arrogant and how utterly fred wilponish. words fporm the master at stealing others money himself. And people wonder why these koolaide drinkers are ridiciulous and why there can’t b e a real debate. The word for any is YOU WORSHIP SANDY AND FRE AND ACCEPT ALL THEY DO or else any?
USMF 100% from top to bottom.
+10
USMF – good post. Well thought out and presented.
Like how right on cue you are th first to respond to any post about Sandy? Its not about defending him. It’s about correcting the huge mistake that is Alex68.
Good work MNJ. I think the funniest part are the posters (one’s who post) vs. your actual poster, but that’s just me.
How silly! A mockery of a great work of art by Michelangelo and a mockery of the Mets. This idealized SA is repulsive. He is an aging prideful person with a repulsive personality. How can anyone think to create such a travesty unless the end objective is total satire and repulsion. I find the entire thing thing to be quite repulsive. If you hadn’t noticed, I think the key to this is REPULSIVE!
It’s the Bruce Almighty movie poster. Calm down…
yea… you know Jim Carrey? Bruce Almighty? Helps the Buffalo Sabres win the Stanley Cup? That guy?
Big Deal! I hate that crap.
Stuff Bruce Almighty! Lame BS for society’s lightweights.
but maskman, did you like it? what if the profile, bulbous head of the almighty Alderson himself was super imposed on the ridiculous movie poster? would it be a little less repulsive to you? Haha! Great job MNJ!
Nah, I truly do not like it.
You know, medical science has made some terrific advancements. I’m sure somewhere there is a doctor that can remove the stick from your butt.
Repulsive is the word.Every time i see him interviewed he looks like he just ate a bad piece of cheese.Nice hire for the media capital of the world.Lord!!!
LOL…very nice, Jerz.
And I’m still LOL that some don’t get it.
forget it, sandy’s apologists will never back down for their idol…. i mean, seriously, when you see post like this: http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/alderson-had-a-good-day.html
that tells you ALL you need to know… and that’s coming from the same guy who said if reyes sign around $110 and the mets don’t sign him that he’d have a problem with the front office…
Alex: A) You again are misquoting me, which I should be used to. The 6th year is my problem with Reyes.
B) He did have a good day that day. See you’re looking at it through the eyes of hating the man rather than objective. He signed 3 quality relievers, did he not? How is that not a good day for a GM? He didn’t lose Reyes that day, he recovered from the loss and didn’t pout about it and went on with his business.
Did he have a bad day as a GM that night when every 20 minutes it seemed another agreement with a reliever was signing (which by the way was the 2011 Mets weakness)?
The 6th year is my problem with Reyes. ”
so you rather have 6 years of shit-ty shorstop instead of 2 shitt-y years of reyes?!?!!? because reyes will give you 4 to 5 really good years, and even if he gives you 3 is better than having our SS hit 240 with 0 hr and 30 rbi’s wouldn’t you agree???
so just so I am not putting words in your mouth
“so you rather have 6 years of shit-ty shorstop instead of 2 shitt-y years of reyes?!?!!?”
You’re saying Ruben Tejada will be “shit-ty for 6 years” right?
Jesse, i’ve been on record here saying how i LOVE ruben tejada, but imo, sandy alderson by not resigning, or even attempt to resign reyes was a mistake, because now i think puts an unearthly pressure on tejada to replace the greatest SS in mets history, that equals a player to fail.. imo sandy alderson by forcing tejada to be the SS of the mets now will make him into a marginal player, i wish i’m wrong trust me, but i think he’ll struggle badly trying to be the SS of the future, i believe wright should’ve been traded, murphy at 3rd, reyes at SS and tejada at 2B would’ve given us a better team going forward because once reyes contract was up tejada could’ve easily replaced him or maybe a SS in the minors would’ve emerge by then..
Alex: Dear friend, you’re contradicting yourself
“so you rather have 6 years of shit-ty shorstop instead of 2 shitt-y years of reyes?!?!!?”
“i’ve been on record here saying how i LOVE ruben tejada”
Those 2 statements are complete opposites
Also
“i believe wright should’ve been traded, murphy at 3rd” so just to be clear, you think its unfair for tejada to replace “the greatest ss in mets history” but its okay if Murphy replaces the greatest 3b in mets history?
“reyes contract was up maybe a SS in the minors would’ve emerge by then..”
So you think it’d be easier for a minor leaguer to take over a job from Reyes due to his reputation after Reyes plays for the Mets for 14 years rather than 1 replacing him now?
Also, Murphy… why do you (and others) act like you’ve seen him play 3B for years? If you followed him in Binghamton or St. Lucie you would have seen him play 3B. I doubt you were a season ticket holder there… so all you use as a basis to say Murphy can play 3B is 20 something games AND hatred for David Wright
Murphy is not as good of a hitter as David Wright. It’s not even debatable. You’re high on Murph (who I do REALLY like btw) because of his 2011 campaign. Every season except 2011 Wright was better offensively as a whole than Murphy’s BEST season.
So you’re making a decision on Murph at 3B over Wright based on less than 120 games, and assuming Wright will forever be 2011 Wright and Murph will always be 2011 Murph.
ata boy Jes, take him behind the woodshed.
Srry chris, i don’t swing that way.. i am sure sandy is ok with that.. not me…
wrong again, i am not high on murhpy, hell, i live with turner at 3rd base, i am low on wright and high on reyes, you’re wrong once again in try on disecting what i am telling you, makes you look stupid.. think about this, what is more easier to replace for the mets, reyes in 6 years when someone could be develop or obtain by then or reyes NOW when is very, highly likely tejada will not be any good???? plus, it would’ve been easier to replace wright after being recognize by the fan base as a CHOKER and coming from a down year than reyes now, i mean, you don’t hear ANYONE complaining about trading wright are you?? how many times you have heard trade wright for pitchers, catchers etc, andf yet noone says anything about that?? could you have said that 4 years ago? hell no, ask TRS86 how metsblog used to ban people just for saying he wasn’t clutch, imagine the word trade and wright in the same sentence what it would’ve done..
“i am low on wright and high on reyes”
“what is more easier to replace for the mets, reyes in 6 years when someone could be develop or obtain by then or reyes NOW when is very, highly likely tejada will not be any good????”
- So again you say Tejada cannot be any good, and I will choose to replace Reyes now rather than 6 years from year. Why? Because Reyes for 6 years doesn’t do anything for this team in terms of making them a playoff contender on paper. He just makes you feel warm and fuzzy. I’d rather work to see if Tejada is the future and if not, I’ve got a few years before they are in a position to NEED a big time SS… hopefully by then they have one. Rather than “oh no reyes’ contract is up we need to overpay some old SS just to sustain our record.”
“it would’ve been easier to replace wright after being recognize by the fan base as a CHOKER”
He’s recognized by you as a choker, not by anybody credible. If Wright is a choker and that is the reason you’re down on him then tell me what Reyes ever did in a big spot? Wright was a better September player in a playoff race and a better playoff player. It’s the same argument day after day. You crucify Wright for being unclutch but ignore the fact that Reyes is no more clutch and likely way less clutch than Wright.
In the last 3 years, Reyes has been terrible with runners in scoring position and 2 outs, Wright’s only been slightly better. How come you don’t mind that? How come you don’t mind his .612 OPS in September of 07 compared to Wright’s 1.034 OPS? or his .716 OPS in September of 08 compared to Wright’s .993?
If you want to blame 1 hitter for the 07, and 08 collapses… you’re naming Jose Reyes before you’re ever naming David Wright.
And after that, what clutch at bat has there been? Seriously if you’re gonna tell me clutch hitting exists then you’re measuring Reyes based on 06 playoffs, 07 September and 08 September. Those 3 moments are when their team needed them the most to come through. And Reyes failed much more than Wright.
So spare me this idea that because Wright is unclutch that makes him less valuable than Reyes.
You’re just bias. There’s nothing more to it. You don’t bring facts to an argument you just spew whatever garbage is falling out of your mouth and hope 1 person in your group loves it.
Now go away or I shall taunt you a 2nd time-ah
So we’re even, since you’ll never stop spewing misinformation and falsehoods in an attempt to try and deride him.
I think it’s way too early to pass judgement…positive or negative on SA. You can argue that the Major League talent he’s brought in is subpar and you’d be right.
But the bottom line is he should be judged on his draft classes and the talent he brings back when he inevitably guts this team.
We are quick to pass judgement as fans, but honestly after the past 5 years I’m numb. Short of contraction there’s not a lot that’s going to piss me off or depress me because I’ve seen it all in my 30 years as a fan.
So both sides… Step back, take a deep breath and let’s see if these kids grow. Maybe Wheeler becomes Cone. Or maybe he becomes Paul Wilson. Maybe Nimmo becomes FMart or maybe he becomes something more.
The key is not to rush these guys. The Mets past is littered with kids who came up before they were ready.
I’ve been blogging/commenting since metsonline.net by Bryan Hoch. I was a regular there and as I told Bryan, the Online in our name of this site was in homage to him. I think he started it in 98 or 97, not sure exactly.
What I think is hilarious from reading the comments on MMO is how after all these years, 13-14 of them, there’s always the ones who hate the incumbent GM and those who staunchly defend him no matter who it is.
But yet it’s always painted as something that’s new or never seen before.
Maybe for some of you toddlers it is, but not from those of us who owned a TRS-80 computer.
Duquette was being poured over with Haterade the minute he sat behind the desk. After Phillips’ little tryst with one of the Mets interns his honeymoon was over. Joe Beningo piled on the Omar hate daily and created a Hate Omar army the day after he signed Beltran.
This is baseball. Nobody agrees on anything because it touches us all differently. On our staff we got writers who voted for PED users in droves and those who felt only one person was eligible in our recent HOF vote.
People are different, so let the haters hate and let the defenders defend and lets stop pretending either has the high ground.
Problem is, on the site, there is post after post ragging on Sandy (the level of hatrade is truly impressive, if not a bit scary), but i still haven’t found the comments that call him “lord and master”, or fawn all over him as some kind of amazing guy that walks on water. And trying to actually accept reality is not being in some kind of cult.
the only sandy is master talk (or genius comments) comes from the other side as best as I can tell.
lol nice. What role does Wilpon play?
He’s in the sequel cast in the role of Hades.
And Kenan Thompson as Paul Depodesta.
DePo just gets fatter and fatter.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/37505/opening-day-payroll-projection
Job well done sandy…
Agreed
, I had it at slightly higher, around 92.
Lol, what am i gonn do with you TRS86
I am not a fan of sabremetrics or money ball.
Getting value on one’s dollar has been the essence of many a team since the mid seventies when general managers had to contend with the ushering in of free agency. It was the Yankees, Angeles, and others that got the publicity signing the big name players to expensive, multi-year contracts and had early success but many others looked for other, less expensive players and became quite successful too. Kansas City and Minnesota won world championships in the eighties with low payrolls before the money ball era – how many did the Yankees?
With computer analysis it has come to the point that the statistical conclusions have become trivial and pointless. For example, on MLB Network’s “clubhouse confidential” in which the host is a big proponent of sabremetrics, they concluded, based on analysis, that Jeff Bagwell was probably the fifth greatest first baseman of all time. I do not recall the names of those four who were put ahead of him but I do know that did not include greats like Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew and Willie Stargell. They compared those advanced stats but not a mention was made of how these three played in their prime when the strike zone (1963-68) was at it’s biggest and still put up those big numbers nevertheless. There are other attributes to consider, way too many to discuss at this time. So it’s not a question of Bagwell deserving to be in the Hall of Fame, but rather putting him above those three I mentioned.
Isn’t it really that if one had any one of them it wouldn’t matter which one it was? Give me a Bagwell, McCovey, Stargell or Killebrew and I’ll take my chances with any of them. It’s like those newer flat screen sets that boast of improved pictures caused by higher contrast ratios, more primary colors and higher response times. The problem is that the human eye can only see so much so the improvements the CE industry boasts about are only measurable in computer labs. That’s what I mean by sabremetrics taking statistics to the level of triviality.
And for all the hype it has received money ball did not work in Oakland under Billy Beane or earlier under Sandy Alderson. Those good clubs were put together by keen baseball sense and decent budgets to work with. It is also acknowledged when in their careers both Sandy and Billy turned to money ball the results show their teams went down hill badly.
The 2002 Oakland club is not a valid example of money ball and sabremetrics though it gets much publicity, especially due to the movie that came out last year. Consider that the 2001 Oakland As had by far the best pitching in the league, so dominant they could afford to lose Giambi and Thomas and replace them with dependable yet much less productive hitters. The pitching was so great it could absorb the less run scoring due to both their departures. It just meant winning by two runs instead of three or four.
And remember how everyone said the best signing the Mets made was getting Rick Peterson as pitching coach? Why not have gone after that guy in front of the keyboard instead? LOL.
When Sandy was forced to turn to money ball in 1995, Oakland fielded miserable teams as well. The 88-90 clubs were built on old time baseball know how – good FA signings, trades and maturing minor league prospects. No computer analysis. No money ball analysis. That’s why I think the Mets have a good general manager who is being handcuffed.
So while both Beane and Alderson are credited as being the leaders of this new way of approaching baseball, what did it accomplish for them? Nothing. And what good is one developing good young players as Oakland has done only to let go of them by arbitration? It’s not so much about winning a division as it is not winning at all. Doesn’t that make money ball a way to try and hide the fact that a team is simply salary dumping?
The game has always evolved from the days of the dead ball era, to the lively ball, to the relief specialist to the “go-go White Sox” and L.A. Dodger teams of the sixties (that beat clubs with much superior hitting by superior pitching and scraping for runs) to relying mostly on a bullpen (ala the 1966 Orioles) to the combination of power and speed we saw in the seventies, etc. Computer analysis has little to do with the way a game shifts. How much are pitch counts responsible for injuring young pitchers by not getting their arms strong enough? Does a computer analyst know more than Nolan Ryan?
So much has become exaggerated regarding the use of money ball and the reliance on sabremetrics. I think the attached article regarding Scott Hatteberg shows how sometimes fiction can replace fact.
The computer is an aid to serve general mangers, not for general managers to serve under (with apologies to Mr. Spock).
http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/09/21/scott-hatteberg-moneyball-interview-facts-fiction/
Click here to Reply, Reply to all, or Forward
Joey D:
Nice write up.
I often get pigeon holed into a group of “saberheads” (which is just another way for bullies to try and classify those who think differently)
But I’m really not. And frankly, I don’t think anybody in that runs a baseball team is. I think when things are done a certain way for decades, that when a few people come along and say “lets try something different” you have to all or nothing. I believe that in the earlier days of Beane’s run with Oakland that he did try to ignore certain aspects that “always” were done. But now, you look at the people who branch off of his education tree.
What Beane started was a revolution in baseball front offices around the entire league. If you look at names of GMs today, half of them wouldn’t get the job in the 80s.
The best idea is to take your view of sabermetrics, and your scouts and mesh them together. Sabermetrics goes further than the idea of “WAR” its guys from Baseball Prospectus being hired by teams to sit and chart daily performances of players based on metrics the team deems valuable. It’s finding a pitcher who maybe plays for a team with poor defense, but you have a good defense and his FIP tells you maybe there’s more to this guy than a 5.00 ERA.
New ideas scare people who are used to things a certain way and are afraid to learn new things. In order for them to make an impact, they have to be extreme at the start and then they fall into place.
Guys like Epstein, Mozeliak, Daniels, Friedman do not sit in a dark room, and watch the games on ESPN Gamecast, and then plug in the numbers and decide who is good. It’s a more detailed process, and it ignore it’s value is ignorant. You don’t have to love everything about it: For example, I question stats like UZR, or VORP or even WAR.
What you and I know about sabermetrics is so much less than what happens behind closed doors inside the Tampa Bay front office. They don’t just sort an excel column by a stat and say “okay those are the guys we want.”
People who come here and talk like sabermetrics are an abomination and act like they are holier than thou because Avg, HR, RBI is all you need are just lost. Every team is using sabermetrics in some capacity.
Agreed.
The days of just strictly sending scouts all over the country as the sole source of evaluating talent are over. You need that mesh, as you said.
It’s been said that Davey Johnson was one of the first managers to use advanced statistics in the running of his ball club in the mid 80s. Honestly, I don’t know what he was doing in that dugout but if that added to that magical 108 win game WS season of ’86 – you go, Davey.
But what Davey did was to use the computer as a source of strategic information about a hitter’s and pitcher’s weakness and performance under certain situations and finding it more easier than relying on notes or memory as a source of reference. How to position a fielder, how a hitter fares against a certain pitcher or type of pitcher, what to expect from the opposing manager, etc. – that was all old school. It made access to that information much easier by getting it compiled before the game. Not much different than the notebook Carlos Delgado used after each at bat.
Yes and no different than organizations using stat sheets on ball players to get a more complete picture of their skills than just relying on scouting reports limited to when they actually saw a ball player on the field.
Wouldn’t you want the FO using every available resource?
Hi Jessep,
Good points made from the other side of the fence.
But take the example you use about the pitcher with the 5.00 ERA. He could very well be a more effective pitcher hindered by a team with poor defensive range that allows pop ups to drop in or can’t get back in time to catch up with a deep fly, allows grounders to get by, not speedy enough to cut off hits toward the alley that makes a single turn into an extra base-hit, cannot turn the double play that extends the inning. In turn, a pitcher with a 3.00 ERA could be helped out by fielders being able to do the exact opposite. Does a smaller ball park mean more runs given up or does it actually prevent more hits by outfielders playing in more and not only catching up with those Texas leaguers but getting to the ball quicker enough to prevent runners from taking an extra base?
Back in the early fifties, a rookie pitcher for the Browns named Bo Bo Hollman was going to be sent down after his start. He had pitched awful to date. Then he pitched a no-hitter. According to all written accounts of that game, he was the luckiest pitcher ever for so many rockets were hit off him that somehow managed to land in the fielders gloves.
Note that though I have an understanding of all those factors I am certainly not a baseball insider and yet all that I have pointed out are not new ideas or revelations – it is knowledge about a game that insiders know much more about than I do and is seen and appreciated without any additional insight gained with advanced statistical analysis. They also know who does and does not hit in the clutch, whose base running slows down the offense, who is able to work the count more and wear down a pitcher, who is able to go with the pitch and who will make productive outs (i.e., hitting to the right side to advance the runner to third, etc.)/ What computerization does best is to compile and provide instant access to this type of information about a player and replaces the file cabinet and the human brain as a storage bank. That’s different than being revolutionary.
And if you go by my own examples, what Billy Beane did was perhaps revolutionary but nothing of a success. His success came before 2002 when he did not put together those Oakland clubs with any new revolutionary statistical method. Like Beane, Sandy was not successful either when relying more on money ball and sabermetrics. Nor were most other teams. There are very few Tampa Bay stories where all the kids with the help of just one or two veterans jell and put it all together. And what happened with the Rays was based on a great organization that went out and observed the talent.
And young players approach arbitration, money ball goes out the window and is replaced by tough negotiating with their agent. That’s what has been happening in Oakland since 2007 and shows that Beane is great at recognizing good, young raw talent but is forced to get rid of them. That is salary dumping.
In this computer age, too many have lost sight that baseball is still the human element. The Mets lost a game in 2007 because Jose Reyes wore his sunglasses over the bill of his cap for fashion purposes instead of having them placed underneath it and lost a pop up in the sun which led to a run. Carlos Delgado was just as guilty for not busting out of the box and admiring his long flies he thought were going over the wall. Lastings Milledge was rated by Bill James as going to make it in the majors while I argued that for all his talent, his attitude was going to be his downfall – and now he is playing in Japan. None of those factors can be seen in stats.
Teams still rely on general managers and scouts who know baseball inside and out and do not rely on stats other than to back up their findings, not cause them. I feel most of the GMs you mention relied on their baseball know how more than the computer programmer. Given a limited budget, they do not need placing financial values on players – they know who they can and cannot afford and understand that the limited financial resources they have needs to be spread out over a few players. Brian Cashman and his counterparts in Anaheim and Miami might not fare so well on the major league level if they had to deal with much less resources. We’ve seen that already with Billy Beane and Sandy Alderson who had to deal with both financial situations.
Joey D: I didn’t read it all yet, I will but just a quick question.
Why are you equating Beane using sabermetrics to 2002 and beyond? I’m not sure I understand why you’re ignoring his entire time as GM prior to that? Just because the book was written doesn’t mean that is when Beane began doing things different?
Also… after 02 they won 90+ games 3 times in 4 years. But still, I’m not sure why 99-02 don’t count to you?
Hi Jessep,
Actually, I thought it was apparent how much I was praising Billy Beane for his baseball talents and how he put together those great Oakland clubs. The point I was making was that his success relied on those old traditional methods of evaluating talent and putting together a good team. It was the use of money ball/sabremetrics attributed to him after that of which I was taking issue with.
Billy Beane is noted to having turned to money ball and sabremetrics after the 2001 season when Giambi and Thomas, his two top hitters, left. That’s the point I used for reference regarding what some call his turnover to new, revolutionary ideas. Don’t forget I pointed out the core pitching staff would still carry the team through success for a few seasons beyond 2001. That is what sustained Oakland’s success, not money ball. It was after the 2006 season that it was all downhill, money ball and all.
As this day comes closer to it’s end let me say thanks for the compliments on what was something meant for a good laugh and I was glad to see many did. I also want to thank Joe for providing the basis for the idea and for posting it. It allowed me to better familiarize myself with the current version of Photoshop CS5 and I am just loving the new “content-aware” feature.