25
2012
Reyes, Pujols or Fielder?
An article by 
The Eagle has landed. The last of the “big” Mohicans, Prince Fielder, has finally agreed to a mega-deal and now has a new home in Motor City… Rah, rah, or better yet, vroom, vroom…
So now that the dust has settled, here is an interesting question first posed by Mets historian and ESPN New York statistician Mark Simon who asked via Twitter:
Lets look at all three deals up close and personal:
- Jose Reyes - The Miami Marlins signed the 2011 NL Batting Champion to a $106 million, six-year contract.
- Albert Pujols - The Los Angeles Angels signed future Hall of Famer Albert Pujols to a $254 million, ten-year contract.
- Prince Fielder – The Detroit Tigers signed the former Brewers’ mega-star to a $214 million, nine-year contract.
So for all of those Mets fans who were going ballistic or rolling on the floor laughing over the largess of the Jose Reyes deal, which of these three deals would you consider to be the best value and the least volatile in terms of potential for disaster?
Yeah, that’s what I thought too….
Seems to me like the Marlins got themselves a bargain now that all is said and done.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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I dunno about that. Both Fielder and Pujols can be hidden in the DH spot if needed and since their game is predicated on power vs. speed, it “should” not decline as quickly as Reyes and his speed. I think I like the Reyes deal more than the Pujols deal, but I think Fielder’s deal is probably the best of the 3.
Seems to me the best deal was signed by the Tigers and Fielder. Fielder has only missed 13 games over the past 6 seasons. He’s the youngest of these 3 players. And, most importantly, he is going to a team that plays in a bad division and won 95 games last season. Pujols and the Angels will have to deal with the Rangers, Reyes still faces 3 really good teams in the NL East (and the Mets. Ha!) If the Tigers get 6 great years out of this 9 year deal and a championship…then that is the best deal of the 3.
What are the criteria in judging which one is better?
Shouldn’t Pujols & Fielder’s contracts be weighed against similar type players? Shouldn’t the same be said for Reyes and his contract?
No brainer – it’s Reyes’ deal.
But bargain? That remains to be seen. I guess you could call it a bargain though comparing it to Pujols or Fielder. Then again, Reyes isn’t the type of player Pujols and Fielder are.
You get the golden Bookeeper’s Visor award with that post,
winning and getting into the playoffs was the FURTHEST thing from your mind. As a matter of fact, winning was NEVER in the equation with your response.
Congrats srt!!!
W00t W00t! you go SRT!
Dang it. I was sure I had that award sewed up this month.
Will just have to sharpen up my pencils and hunch down over the blotter and work harder next month.
All you have to do is mention how valuable advanced stats are and you immediately go to the head of the class.
LOL, Bayonne. That was…… I don’t know what that rant was…..
it’s clear that you don’t. No explanation needed
None at all, but feel free to try. It would probably be hillarious.
Contrary to your belief, just about everything you rant about needs an explanation.
look lady, don’t even bother okay?
Every single word you post is based on what you have read. That’s how you learn. You don’t have any inate or developed knowledge of the game. You’re a fan who does a lot of reading and there’s nothing wrong with that. But don’t try to compete where you can’t. Oh and btw i get the benign insults you throw at me – insults nonetheless but that’s okay, i won’t ask for you to be banned but you want me banned because i shove whatever knowledge you have right back into your face so you can get a better look at it – only then maybe you’ll learn something about baseball and LESS about finances.
How stereotypical of you, Bayonne.
You never disappoint in that area.
“Every single word you post is based on what you have read.”
vs. the magical H.R.Pufnstuf land where your ideas formulate?
I compliment your passion, but man, oh, man (or woman, oh, woman, for you ladies), you not only miss the target with your arrow sometimes, you shoot a person or 2 in the crowd.
someone like YOU is gonna tell me that i miss most of the time? And my arrows hit one or two people in the crowd?? My magical Puff n Stuff ideas? Based on old fashioned traditional baseball. And who the hell are you?
What examples are you referring to? This I would like to see because I know you are digging your own grave here. Guarantee it.
I am NJstuckinTX. Hear me roar.
But seriously, I’m a serious about how you stick to your guns. It is commendable.
For specific instances, your HR/RBI only theory is just silly. And it is the “only” portion of that statement I’m talking about. Looking up someone’s BA/HR/RBI stats does not give you the whole story. Yes, a it is an indicator, but it is not the end all to say how a batter is. Just like the OBP and other stat head acronyms that there are don’t tell the whole story. Refusal to believe that the other stats are useful is wrong. (side note: stat heads who only look at OBP or OPS are wrong too.)
Also, regarding the current front office and the current situation they are in, you turn a blind eye on the ability to spend, or lack there of, that they have. Yes, I will agree with you that some of Alderson’s choices are not correct. But I do believe that given the 40+ mil that the team used to have in the budget, Sandy’s choices would be radically different, so re-signing Reyes, taking a run at CJ Wilson or Creme Buerhle or whomever would have been on his radar. It’s the absolute refusal to understand that this plays a factor that drives most here batty. And if it ticks you off that he said it was a priority to sign Reyes, yet didn’t put forth an offer… Did you really want him to say, “nah, we’re broke, we’ll pass”?
well the discussion was about Pujols and Fielder and you don’t need to know their OBPs. If I’m signing those guys to big contracts I want to know their HR & RBI if i had to pick 2 stats – not their OBP. Their OBP is totally USELESS – those guys are good hitters with good eyes and like i said before – if their OBP never changed but you cut their HR & RBI in half they are not getting those contracts. I know what to look for in a player and you don’t have to tell me what to look for thank you very much.
And as I also said in other posts, I have not turned a blind eye to the finances Alderson has to work with. I read the same info you do and am fully aware of it. He’s still, IMO, doing a lousy job, his evaluation is terrible and I happen to think he is not trying his best to win and instead is looking to fill any hole he can as cheap as possible with only a very, very miniscule eye on trying to compete. He’s not.
You chose to believe that Reyes would not have re-signed. I and may others believe otherwise. Alderson has a terrible personality and another GM may have spent the money differently and maybe would have wanted Reyes to be a part of the future and therefore would have made corresponding moves to do so.
I think you are the one that is not seeing the full picture.
At least Reyes and Pujols are in amazing athletically fit condition, but Fielder is so overweight and I expect a Mo Vaughn-esque decline as soon as 2013. Tigers are insane for giving someone so fat that kind of money.
First of all, I don’t think anybody who thinks the Reyes deal was an overpay (for the Mets or elsewhere) thinks the Prince/Pujols deals are great contracts either.
However, I do believe both Prince and Pujols have a greater impact and increase their teams chances of winning a pennant moreso than the signing of Reyes does to Miami.
If I’m a Tigers fan I’m excited about Prince within the next 5 years, and then if they haven’t won by then… I get worried.
For Pujols, you have to hope he ages gracefully more like a Hank Aaron type. That’s the only way it works.
It’s just like Halladay/Lee. Okay great move and great job by the Phillies but if they don’t win a Title with Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee and their contracts clogs up their finances handcuffing them from further moves then they will be failed deals.
Reyes is not as big of a superstar as Prince or Pujols, he just isn’t. So I don’t really see the value in comparing their contracts. They have different roles and different projected paths due to age/skill.
If you’re asking me if I’m a fan of those 3 teams, what order am I most happy to least happy about the signings? I’d go Angels/Tigers/Marlins.
That’s not to say a Marlins fan should not be happy, but I think personally if their team signed either Pujols or Prince they’d be more happy about it.
If the Mets went 95-67 or 86-76 finishing 5 games out and NEEDED an impact 1B and got Pujols or Prince for those deals, I wouldn’t complain.
If the Mets finished 72-90 and have a questionable financial future and signed Reyes, yes I’d be concerned about that.
I’m not interested in which one is the best “value” (a word i’ve grown to hate around here).
What I am interested is in which deal give their respective team the best chance to WIN and that’s what it’s all about, not value. Whatever each team can afford is value to them so it’s subjective/relative to each team.
Signing Fielder gives the Tigers a BEAST of a lineup for a long time to come and gives them the best chance to win immediately IMO. Tough call between the 3 overall I really don’t think there’s any wrong answer.
But value? That’s in each teams mind’s eye. It’s about winning.
How do you feel about value meals at McDonalds?
ha ha but if you’re on the go and u have no time to make a decision then i guess a McProcessedChicken sandwich and small fries for $2.00 + tax is okay..and that’s if you want to pile on 600 calories for those 2 bucks.
But a wiser decision for 2 bucks (without the tax) is a good slice of pizza at a ma & pa shop and not as unhealthy either
and probably less calories too!
Reyes has the best deal. He can finish contract. Pujols can also finishas a DH. As far as Fielder is concerned, he might finish up to 6-7 years. I see at 34-35 having problems with the weight issue.
whichever team that signed any of those 3 players that makes the playoffs the most during their respective tenure is the best deal. It’s about nothing else. Value is in the “eye of the beholder” because whatever each team can pay is respective to them.
So the most winning will determine the best value the way i look at it.
Now I know the usual suspects that come around here with their book-keeper’s visors and change dispensers around their waist will be aghast and arms akimbo like they are the robot from Lost In Space yelling “does not compute” whenever I talk about winning but that’s their problem. They count value in dollars not wins.
Not into Saber stuff, Wins and losses. Don’t care if it’s Omar, Sandy or Steve either.
You’re hate for Reyes is well know on this site. You’ve spread enough vitriol about him in the last four months to know try and answer anything objectively.
For instance jessep writes:
If the Mets went 95-67 or 86-76 finishing 5 games out and NEEDED an impact 1B and got Pujols or Prince for those deals, I wouldn’t complain.
But he doesn’t mention if they needed an impact SS or leadoff hitter.
Extremely biased thought process.
Then jessep writes:
If the Mets finished 72-90 and have a questionable financial future and signed Reyes, yes I’d be concerned about that.
But he doesn’t mention if they gave $200MM to Pujols or Fielder?
See what he does?? See how his bias and hate for Reyes keeps coming through?
He just cant be considered objective and he just showed how unfair and slanted against Reyes he is again right here in this post.
Hi Maniac, thanks for the reply about the subject err… I mean, about me.
I didn’t mention if a 72-90 team gave a player $200mil because, they didn’t. If I wouldn’t be happy with Reyes’ contract under that situation, why would I be happy about $200mil?
If you’re asking me right now I have a chance to get Pujols, Fielder or Reyes and my team does not have a great SS or great 1B (which all 3 have replaceable SS and 1B), I’d take Pujols and Fielder before I take Reyes.
I don’t think that means I hate Reyes. I think it means I recognize that Pujols and Fielder are bigger superstars in the sport and have a greater impact on championship caliber baseball.
The Tigers and Angels both could have used Reyes. He’d be an improvement over Aybar and Detroit could have easily moved Peralta to 2B.
I’m sorry if me thinking Pujols and Fielder make a greater impact on championship hopes than Reyes to the Marlins does hurts your feelings, but I’d have to think you’re in the minority of baseball fans on this case.
You know who signed the best deal? The teams that make it to the post season in 2012, 13, 14, etc. So it’s too early to tell. It’s starting to feel like Mets fans have lost the capacity to count their successes by post seasons and winning. Now using first round picks to take second and third rounders is considered a great draft even though they are 6 years away. Signing scrubs like Quintanilla and Cedeno and ignoring the problems of the rotation, leadoff spot, catcher, etc. is called a great offseason. This plays right into the hands of Wilpon now that Alderson has successfully and permanently convinced fans that low expectations are okay and spending less is more important than winning more.
Maniac: Just out of curiousity based on this post above.
Would you then say Carlos Beltran and Johan Santana’s deals were failures?
Yeah, now if each team just had a crystal ball, these signings would be oh so easy…..
No MLB teams won more games than the Mets from 2005-2008 and in 2006 we came within one strike of the world series. Is this where you move onto bashing Beltran again?
I’m not bashing Beltran. I’mjust looking for consistency. YOU said with regards to high priced contracts
“You know who signed the best deal? The teams that make it to the post season in 2012, 13, 14, etc. So it’s too early to tell”
So then by that statement you make it sound as though Beltran’s contract was a bust because it only produced 1 playoff appearance.
But then when you’re asked about it, you back the truck up and tell me that the regular season justify’s Beltran’s contract. This coming from the guy who negates everything Billy Beane did because he never won a World Series yet had one of the most successful regular seasons on average over a 7-8 year period?
How come the rules always change? I just want consistency. If the regular season success counts towards Beltran’s contract being justified then regular season success has to be counted in other areas no?
By the fact: “No MLB teams won more games than the Mets from 2005-2008″
That’s not true. Not sure who told you that.
If you want consistency clean up your own act first before asking others to clean up theirs. Nice spin job by now saying the reader of your original comment needed to assume that of course Reyes was inclusive in the quote I cited and vice versa on Fielder/Pujols. Word of advice, say what you mean and mean what you say.
Maniac: I’m not the one who began an attack on another reader here. You did. So please don’t tell me to clean up my act until you’re done looking in the mirror. I’m not sure why everytime somebody disagrees with you, you have to get so defensive.
You have to be consistent. You can’t tell me these contracts only are successes if their team makes the playoffs but this contract is okay because they ALMOST made the playoffs and this GM is terrible because he never won a World Series
Pick a side Maniac.
Here: Was Carlos Beltran’s contract better for his team or was Alfonso Soriano’s better?
Under your argument given for Reyes/Prince/Pujols, you’d say Soriano was the better signing. So is that your feeling?
Um… I dunno about anyone else but Reyes to me was never in the same category as Pujols and Fielder. Reyes is a game changer and I really wish the Mets could’ve resigned him, but those other two guys hit bombs and get on base like few others in baseball. Those other two guys can single handedly change the direction of a franchise.
The Marlins did not get a “bargain” for Reyes. Reyes is a lead-off hitter with occasional bad legs who hasn’t stolen enough bases to have a significant impact on his team since 2008. He’s just now starting to get better at getting on base as a lead-off hitter but he’s still below average. Reyes has a couple of well-above average seasons under his belt while the other two have been All-star caliber players consistently.
Reyes is great, just not as great as Fielder and Pujols. As Mets fans, the least we can do is judge our own players fairly. Let’s not get blinded by the flashy batting title and the cool hair.
“but those other two guys hit bombs and get on base like few others in baseball.”
You mean those other two guys hit bombs and DRIVE IN RUNS like few others in baseball.
Remember to think for yourself, forget that stupid saber culture, and remember that driving in runs wins games and those 2 big boppers drive them in no matter what team they play for.
To concern yourself with how much Pujols and Fielder “get on base” is misguided and frankly the wrong way to look at it. They’ll hit so don’t worry about that – you want them driving in runs
I didn’t mention driving in runs because Reyes is never really in a position to drive in runs, so it wouldn’t be a fair comparison. I was looking at individual statistics like HR and OBP. RBI have as much to do with the people hitting in front of you as it does with your hitting ability. Like you said “they’ll hit so don’t worry about that.”
Getting intentionally walked 20 times is part of the point. They are dangerous hitters. They change a game without having to swing a bat. The chances of scoring runs, the only way to win a game as you pointed out, increase if there are more people on base. You don’t need to understand saber metrics to understand simple odds. I’m not using crazy difficult stats here, just pure common sense. These hitters are already known for driving in runs, but the fact that they can get on base for the people behind them to drive in runs is just as important. Baseball is a team game.
It’s silly to even concern yourself about Prince or Albert getting on base in front of the people behind them. They make big money and have careers because they are big time power hitters who drive in plenty of RBIs. They are good hitters so if they are on base and somebody gets a hit to drive them in that’s good, that’s baseball. I’m not gonna sit here and worry about who will drive in Prince Fielder after he clears the bases with a bases loaded single off the wall. You are over thinking because you are stat drunk.
And don’t worry about who hits in front of them. They can be on teams with very good table setters and wind up having bad years and drive in LESS runs. The Angels and Tigers did not sign Prince or Albert because of who they have hitting 1st or 2nd. They signed them because they are big time power hitters who drive in lots of runs and can help them get to the post season.
If Ike hits 35 HRs and unless Mike Pelfrey and Pedro Beato are hitting in front of him he will most likely drive in over 100 runs because that’s what usually happens. You do not know what Ruben Tejada or Daniel Murphy or Andres Torres will be hitting in 2012. Sure if they all hit good it’s great for the Mets and good for any team when their table setters do that but if they hit AVG it does not necessarily mean that Ike will have a lot less RBIs either. Most likely it would help but it may not either. Pinch hitters late in the game can get a hit and be on base too you know and that could be an additional 5 to 10 RBI’s right there. As long as they win.
There are so many things wrong with everything you just said… I don’t even know why I try and discuss baseball with you
well i think there are so many ridiculous things about what you said I don’t even know why i’m talking baseball with you. I happen to think that if you asked the GMs of the Tigers and Angels why they signed Pujols and Fielder they would take my side for sure. They are not concerned about who is going to drive in Pujols and Fielder and that’s not why they signed them. As long as Pujols and Fielder CLOSE THE DEAL each time they come to bat that’s all you need.
But hey, the internet gives you the opportunity to write your own blog and good for you,, nothing wrong with that and you’re not on the streets doing bad things, sure you’re a nice guy. But baseball knowledge? That’s where it ends.
Anthony: Bayonne is right, Jerry DiPoto doesn’t worry about freaky OBP stats.
“It’s not often you can find a catcher who can help you [offensively], but he’s always had that skill set,” said Dipoto, the Rockies’ player personnel director in 2005, the year after Iannetta was drafted. “He’s always been a good OBP guy, and that was a motivating factor in the deal.”
Oh… woops
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/30/sports/la-sp-1201-angels-iannetta-20111201
Good job digging that up.
OBP is as much an indicator of a good hitter as it is an indicator of someone who has a good eye at the plate. If there are people on base, high OBP usually leads to high RBI. Walks aren’t the only thing that goes into OBP.
Anthony: I’ve got more from this wackadoo
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_/id/7183342/los-angeles-angels-gm-plans-new-way-evaluate-players
“Obviously, we need to address the fact that getting on base hasn’t been an area of strength,” Dipoto said. “Mike and I talked about it. Arte [Moreno], John [Carpino] and I sat down and had a conversation. It’s something we want to make a focus.”
“I don’t think there’s one sexy stat that you’re going to quantify as the tipping point. There are a variety of different stats, but it’s how you interpret them that will lead you toward good decision-making,” Dipoto said. “It’s trends that are important to me.”
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_/id/7183342/los-angeles-angels-gm-plans-new-way-evaluate-players
“In talking to the Angels people, it was never not a part of the philosophy, it was just something that was never aggressively taught,” said Dipoto, who is attending his first GM meetings this week in Milwaukee.
“There are different schools of thought on whether it can be taught or whether it’s a skill you’re born with. I tend to gravitate toward the latter.”
Dipoto plans to target OBP as he looks to upgrade the offense, but much of the work will be done at the grass-roots level, identifying, drafting and developing players who understand plate discipline.
“Do they track the ball. Are they patient? Do they swing at strikes?” Dipoto said. “That’s something you try to identify when players are young. And there’s a good chance that the guys who are doing that in the big leagues always had that trait.”
Anthony: Somebody has to stop this guy! He’s out of his mind!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/11/angels-jerry-dipoto-on-base-percentage.html
..and this has to do with spending a LOT of money to sign Prince Fielder how?
Actually this has NOTHING to do with DiPoto’s signing of Fielder if you read what he said:
“Do they track the ball. Are they patient? Do they swing at strikes?” Dipoto said. “That’s something you try to identify when players are young. And there’s a good chance that the guys who are doing that in the big leagues always had that trait.”
Anybody gonna read that and tell me that type of thinking came into play when he signed Fielder? And what about the 2nd sentence? Isn’t that the same thing as what I just said about power hitters? That they probably had their “GOOD EYE” their entire lives?
I JUST SAID THAT – now this clown posts something Jerry DiPoto said – which is EXACTLY what I said.
And how about when Dipoto said this:
Veteran outfielder Bobby Abreu had some success mentoring young players such as Erick Aybar and Maicer Izturis in 2010, but Dipoto said he isn’t convinced that patience can be taught at the major-league level.
Goes BACK to what I always say around here all the time
this little mommy’s boy jesshlt thinks he’s trying to keep up with the big boys with his little sniveling,, taking out of context, double talking, shooting cow dung out of both sides of his mouth here every day. Take a hike.
OBP is good to look at if you’re looking for table setters – NOT middle of the order power hitters because you want the hitting the ball deep and driving in runs. And since MOST of the time middle of the order power hitters who drive in runs are good hitters with GOOD EYES they most likely will have a nice OBP because they had that GOOD EYE all of their lives.
..so that was NOT a good job of looking that up from 7 years ago with another team. It was just pure nonsense that had NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.
yeah we were talking about what Dipoto said about a catcher 7 years ago
Like that has to do with his signing of Albert Pujols
jesshlt, as you slither between the blades of grass and make your way back to your hole in the ground make sure you find more information from years past that has nothing to do with the current conversation but put in the right context can appear to have something to do with the conversation.
You’re slime, that’s all there is to it.
The point is that Jerry Dipoto (the guy who signed Pujols this offseason, the same guy you said probably didn’t care about OBP when he signed Pujols) values OBP in his entire team and at least partially bases his offensive acquisitions on it. Yes Pujols is a middle of the order power hitter, but his low strikeout numbers and ability to get on base (with both his bat and his eyes) in order to also make the people behind him better (higher chances of scoring runs with more people on base) was a big selling point. Not JUST his HR numbers and RBI, although they also played a significant role in his interest in Pujols.
It’s his HRs and RBIs. Period.
If his HRs and RBIs are not up to par Pujols is not given that contract and not playing for the Angels.
And the OBP part, sure he can value it, but the example given was him talking about young players not major leaguers. He said the same thing I said – that players who have good eyes ALWAYS had it
and also – you gonna sit there and actually tell me that HRs & RBIs’ were LESS of the reason that Jerry Dipoto signed Pujols???????????? And more of the reason was his OBP and low K rate?
If you’re gonna actually sit there and tell me that, and believe what the hell you are saying than you guys are deeper into your own fantasy stat world than I ever imagined.
I GUARANTEE you that if Pujols OBP was always the same but he had half the HRs and RBIs – he’s not an Angel.
This conversation is so lame and so indicative of the lack of knowledge and perverted sense of priorities in baseball that these stat geeks bring to the table it’s embarrassing for them and they are the last to know it. And another thing, this K rate thing about Pujols just happens to be the type of hitter he always was and was probably like that in high school too – his entire life. It is not and SHOULD NOT BE any reason to sign him to that contract – all that is is a by product of the fantastic and unique hitter that Pujols is and NOTHING to do with any scientific or enlightening finding by any saber type of thinking.
That just proves DiPoto is some Ivy League geek who uses big words and never played the game. Bayonen probably knows more about baseball than him and would make a better GM.
Oops
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dipotje01.shtml
You have to find humor in the fact the guy who signed Pujols PREACHED how the franchise NEEDS to START looking MORE into OBP and yet our friend above cannot even admit he was wrong when he acted as though DiPoto didn’t even care about OBP
I never said Jerry DiPoto didn’t care about OBP and I never said he ACTED like he didn’t care.
Again a flat out LIE by this deceiving piece of filth.
This was about OBP being used in evaluating Pujols and Fielder and I’m saying you don’t need it. HR & RBI is better to use in evaluating those guys and for the 3rd or 4th time i’m going to say if both those guys OBP stayed the same but you cut their HR & RBI in half. Fielder is not on Det and Pujols is not on DET
Those guys were signed to hit the long ball and drive in runs. The fact that they both have good eyes at the plate and one rarely K’s is a by-product of their naturally born talent.
Also I said here BEFORE this piece of lying filth posted the Jerry DiPoto article that those guys probably had good eyes their entire lives. Then we read Jerry DiPoto say the same thing I say when he said:
“And there’s a good chance that the guys who are doing that in the big leagues always had that trait.”
and when talking about Bobby Abreu’s mentoring of young players he said:
“Dipoto said he isn’t convinced that patience can be taught at the major-league level”
Which is what I always say here all the time practically.
But this little man doesn’t post that. He just likes to trick people and deceive. He likes to play with words and wastes everybody’s time with numbers games and semantics games.
But that’s what the internet does, it enables debates to be thrown into all different kinds of directions by people who use the internet and copy & paste to be deceitful, trickery, and play games and to try and take people’s words out of context and use them against them. And the perfectly describes this painful rectal itch because i tell you one thing he wouldn’t be doing this in real life – his arguments would be shot down in 2 seconds
You pay those guys millions for driving in runs – not getting walked intentionally..and they each can get walked intentionally 20 times increasing their OBP significantly. But that’s useless information.
I want them having a lot of RBIs, i could not care any less about their OBP
20 IBB/600 PA=0.03
How on earth does that increase their OBP significantly?
If you want say their pwoer dwarfs their OBP, fine. But you really need to get over this bizarre hatred of a stat that has been around since Branch Rickey.
And you also need to finally learn that RBI is the useless stat.
Player A:
29 HR 98 RBI .332 OBP
Player B:
32 HR 83 RBI .401 OBP
Call me crazy but I’m taking Player B in the middle of my order 7 days a week over Player A.
Player A – he won games and his team could be in the post season
Player B? He can still be standing on 3B with his lovely OBP if Wright is hitting behind him
Give me players with 100 RBIs over players with stupid 360 or 370 OBPs anyday if you’re gonna select stats to try and fit an argument – which is what this oily, slithering, slimy eel does on a daily basis.
Oh and he chooses a .400 OBP? Most likely that player is a good hitter anyway – but amount of HRs is not mentioned so that leave that up in the air too – depending on your team’s needs.
So just to be clear
Josh Willingham 2011 – he won games and his team could be in the post season
Prince Fielder 2010 – He can still be standing on 3B with his lovely OBP if Wright is hitting behind him
And by the way “but amount of HRs is not mentioned so that leave that up in the air too – depending on your team’s needs.” I actually did list HR but you were in a rush to name call you must have missed it.
Player A:
29 HR 98 RBI .332 OBP
Player B:
32 HR 83 RBI .401 OBP
OHH so now he’s adjusted the argument by adding NAMES NOW. Now he’s re-entering his argument with names.
I hope this proves once and for all to the readers what a slime ball, what a slithering, slimy, snake-oil salesman, what a Dr. Smith clone, what a sneak, and what a cowardly, sniveling mommy’s boy who speaks out of both sides of his mouth AND butt at the same time is.
So because you called Josh Willingham a winner over Prince Fielder based on RBI totals and ignored OBP that makes me the bad guy?
Nice.
Putting words in people’s mouths as usual – this coming from the resident MMO carnival barker/car salesman/snake oil salesman – all rolled into one
He did list home runs. he didn’t list the respective team records. You jsut iserted that to make your shallow cliche of a point.
Oh he did list HRs, i missed it. Everything i say is still the same though.
No, actually, your post completely falls apart because you have no idea what was being said. You missed where he mentioned home runs and made Hr one of your main points against him.
you then tried to use team wins as a point when they were never mentioned.
Josh Willingham > Prince Fielder.
As usual putting words in people’s mouths and trying to set them up – like the time you came into the shout box trying to set ME up – then ran with you’re own little girl out-of-context crap which is your legacy around here. I’m sure you must have been beaten up in school plenty of times because you are one piece of work.
You are about as SNIVELING and DISGUSTING as they come.
I love playing with numbers too:
Player A 28HR’s .369 OBP
Player B 29HR’s .312 OBP
Player A is Kubel’s 2009 season, and player B is Cruz’s 2011 season – So, Jason Kubel > Nelson Cruz.
Here’s another good one:
Player A 10 HR’s .393 OBP
Player B 8 HR’s .381 OBP
Player A is Daric Barton’s 2010 season, and player B is Ichrio’s 2001 MVP season – So, Barton > Ichrio.
I love playing with numbers.
Re: Kubel v. Cruz, I’m not sure what your point is since
Kubel: 154 H 35 dubs 28 HR 103 RBI .300 avg .369 OBP .539 SLG
Cruz: 125 H 28 dubs 29 HR 87 RBI .263 avg .312 OBP .509 SLG
Are you saying Kubel 09 wasn’t a better hitter than Cruz 11?
Kubel hit mostly 4th/5th that year, Cruz hit 5/6.
You know why your Daric Barton/Ichiro argument is flawed. So I won’t even bother wasting my time
Cruz is hands down a better player than Kubel, and by cherrypicking what years to show(and leaving out the fact Cruz played in 20 less games), i could trick people into believing Kubel is the better player – Like you did with Fielder and Willingham. Fielder is much better at driving in runs than Willingham, but you made him seem like he wasn’t because you cherrypicked their seasons – Fielder is 5th in the majors in RBI since 2007, and Willingham has never reached 100 once in his career.
That’s not the discussion. The discussion is does RBI total make you the better player/season.
In 2009 Kubel had a better season than 2011 Cruz. You brought up that comparison and sorry but I’d take Kubel 09 over Cruz ’11 so I’m not sure you did what you wanted to do there.
In the Fielder/Willingham debate I would take Fielder’s season over Willingham… so you missed on your comparison I’m afraid
I understood it perfectly. You tried to trick Bayonne into saying player A(willingham) was better than player B(Feilder). You used cherrypicked seasons from the two players, and didn’t put them in their proper context.
There wasn’t any Fielder/Willingham debate, it was just a trick.
And I just did them same thing with my examples. Like in my 2nd example, if I didn’t tell you who the 2 players were, you would have said you’d rather have player A(Draic Barton) over player B(Ichiro).
Who said they were in the same category or same class? You and jessep? I certainly didnt. Newsflash, Pujols and Fielder got more than double what Reyes got.
Ummm, did you read the post we’re all responding to?
Yeah I read it and I responded. He wants to know who was better value Reyes at $100m or the other two at $220m. One’s a leadoff hitter the other two are sluggers only a lame brain would infer that asking whose a better value means they are in the same class. And as I said it’s too early to say.
I’ve been reading and enjoying this thread because of the pertinent comments by some ‘regulars’ and the whining and name calling by other ‘regulars.’ It’s just a lovefest.
Joe D’s post described Reyes as one of the “‘big’ Mohicans” in the first line… please read the post before responding.
It’s always hard to judge these deals now…How will Reyes hold up physically? Will Fielder’s weight cause him problems? Albert is the oldest (and probably older than we think) when willhis decline hit?
This is the way I look at it. There are only 2-3 elite SS’s in baseball. There are a least 10 really good 1st basemen right now…to me, good SS’s and harder to get than good 1st basemen.
You also have to look at what each team is trying to do. The Tigers are trying to make it to the WS, the Angels are trying to make it back to the PS and the Fish are trying to sell tickets for their new park.
The Tigers already scored a ton of runs, so adding Prince seems a little overkill and could cause a a log jam of players who are OK in the Field, but not great.
The Angels will get a huge boost in O added to their solid (some say the best in MLB) rotation, they will be contending.
I’m not sure what the ticket sales are for the Marlins, but they should be decent, their fan base is weak and I don’t know if they are buying the recent push by the team or not.
One thing that I do see is; Reyes’s contract is very back loaded and will probably be traded before the Marlins pay more than 20% of his deal. Albert has a no trade, I’m not sure about Fielder (yet). I had much rather have Prince and his deal over Albert and his…Reyes is a completely different type of player, but seeing how much shorter and cheaper his deal is (and the assumption that Miami will trade him) the Reyes deal has to be the best.
I’dhve to imagine ticket sales in Miami are going very well. All of the new signings, plus new branding and new stadium should = ticket sales no doubt about it.
What will be more interesting to see in my view is what happens if that team does NOT make the playoffs? What happens in year 2, 3, 4 with ticket sales?
With regards to the Tigers run scoring ability being overkill, I think you may be forgetting they lost Victor Martinez.
USMF let me ask YOU this question
If there are in your view 2-3 elite SS’s in baseball and 10+ in baseball.
Would you rather be on the short end of the stick at SS or at 1B? Are the Marlins better if they had Pujols/Fielder at 1B with Hanley at SS or Reyes at SS with Gaby Sanchez at 1B?
For me, if I’m in the AL okay and I have Texiera, AGone, Cabrera, Konerko, Hosmer (soon to be a star), then I don’t want to get by with a guy like Mark Trumbo at 1B. I don’t NEED an elite SS because you can probably toss in almost every SS in MLB in a hat and pull one out and be on par with your competition.
So for me, I’ll take the superstar 1B over the “elite SS.” That’s just the way I see it
Reds sign Jeff Francis to a minor league contract:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/reds-francis-agree-to-deal.html