MMO Flashback: Retire Kid, Yes, But Not Before Mex

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• Metsie July 10, 2011 at 2:05 pm

  I love Gary and Keith and they deserve a place in Mets History and clearly earned their Met Hall of Fame status as well as their Baseball Hall of Fame accolades.

  But Gary was a met for a mere 5 years Keith only 6.

  Gary wore #8, So too did Yogi Berra, Doesn’t he deserve to be honored in that retired jersey event as well? If your going to retire the number 8 Yogi is as big a baseball guy, as big a part of Met History as Carter is! No?

  And while it is tragic what Gary is going through it seems a bit odd (and phony) that we would think to retire his number after giving it to 6 players in the 90′s all because the guy is sick and not because we always intended to retire his number as a Met.

  There is only one actual Met player who has his number retired.
  The rest are Robinson, Hodges (good choice) and Stengel (Excellent Choice!)

  You can Quibble with the Robinson retiring if you want but his number should be retired through ALL of baseball as he was as much an American hero as he was a baseball Legend and his impact on the game (And society as a whole) is felt by everyone associated within the game and outside of it. He was the big breakthrough needed to rid ourselves of the segregated status quo and made it possible for a lot of people (not just in baseball) to see the american dream.

  Gil Hodges was the guy that made this team respectable (with the help of #41). before he took over we were pretty much a sandlot team who managed to get on the MLB schedule to pad out the rest of the leagues win totals.

  Casey Stengel was the face of the franchise from 62 as our very first manager and till long after his time as manager was done!

  You could argue any of the above names as not really deserving of having their retired numbers. None of them played for the mets. None lasted more than 10 years wit us.

  Then there is the one Met who ACTUALLY without argument deserves to have his number retired.

  Seaver! From 1967 on no one has worn the number! And Gil Hodges would not have brought us to the repectable team we became if not for #41.
  We called him the Franchise for a damn good reason! He made it a franchise not just some cannon fodder for the MLB.

  I know everyone loves the 86 Mets and most think we should retire half a dozen numbers from that squad.

  But I think that honor should be reserved for those that truly were known as Mets throughout or for a major portion of their career.

  Even when Seaver left he was still thought of AS a Met.

  And while it seems like a nice idea to Honor Carter I just don’t ever look at him more than a 5 year Rental where he came here only because he wanted to win a Ring he would never win as an Expo!
  He made the hall of fame based on his numbers as an Expo not a Met.

  I know we are only half a decade old and compared to teams like the Yankees it would seem we have no history to celebrate.

  The Yankees have retired just 17 numbers in thier 100+ years of baseball.
  And the names on thier list are quite a bit more impressive and much more YANKEE than Carter is a Met.

  When a list of the greatest Catchers of all time is made Carter is no where near the top! Piazza might make it but Carter will be somewhere in the middle. Guys like Berra (as mentioned above also #8 for us) will be ahead of him.

  It’s the highest Honor a team can give someone to have your Jersey retired. And I’m not so sure Gary merits that.

  I think if he wasn’t battling for his life we would not be so quick to retire #8.
  Right now what he needs is our Prayers not just another notch in history.

  And if we do retire #8 Yogi should be included in that honor.

  Just my opinion…
  • Derek C. July 10, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Well said about the managers and Jackie Robinson. I wanted to add that their numbers deserve to be on the outfield wall as well, but I was just trying to keep it to players who have made significant contributions to the Mets. I should also add the fact that both became associated with the Mets after their retirements definitely adds to their popularity amongst Met fans. I’ll be detailed next time. It’s my first day back after a 3 year break
    • Metsie July 10, 2011 at 7:11 pm

      derek, there was nothing really wrong with your suggestion. If we are going to pull on straws to find a number to retire those two picks are as good as any others. (Only Strawberry and Gooden could be better and we know thats not happening anytime soon)

      I just don’t feel they fit the criteria or status for number retirement.
      They are not in the same breath of Met player that Seaver is (or maybe one day Reyes could be if we decide to keep him for another 5 or 6 years).

      If Jimmy Rollins came here for 5 years and we won a WS with him should he be a consideration too?

      Right now Seaver should be the litmus test, Started with us, Played the majority of time with us, Won a WS for us, and made his name WITH us! He got the name the Franchise so he may be the ULTIMATE example of what jersey to retire, but it’s a damn good one!

      Hernandez and Carter already had a name before they ever got here.

      There are many other more appropriate ways to honor them.

      We have a Met Hall of Fame that should be changed to feature prominently a different player each homestand so there is always a reason to go into it and see what is new!

      Yankees have plaques that LINE the stadium walls. There is no art in Yankee Stadium it’s all Memorials to people related to Yankee Baseball. There are even memorials for Writers and Press people that line the hallways the crews who work the games use to get where they need to go to set up and cover the game.

      This is a much more appropriate way to honor the hernandez and Carters who blew their way in and out quickly but gave us all memories to cherish.

      So my problem isn’t with who you picked but all about the fact that there should be one honor that we are extremely stingy with because the number of honors you can give are limited.

      The Yankees in a bit over a Century have only retired 17 Numbers. And thats with all those great players from the 50′s they had to account for.

      Carter was a great catcher Keith maybe the best 1B I have ever seen but neither are baseball legends the way Seaver was.
      • NJstuckinTX January 20, 2012 at 9:45 am

        I understand you don’t want to go retiring every number of decent Met players. I don’t think only having 6 years should be as big a negative as you say. Keith meant and still means a great deal to this organization, both through his play in the past and his booth contributions too. When you think of Keith, you think Mets. His greatness as a defender, leader and hitter for the Mets organization make him worthy of being retired. Much the same way that Piazza’s play did the same for the organization. Those 2 should certainly have their numbers retired, ASAP.

        As for Gary… I don’t think he makes the cut on the retiring of his number. While I wish him a miraculous recovery and he spends many more years on this earth, I still don’t think he is worthy of having his number retired.
  • Jim July 11, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Great post, but I believe you mean half a century (not decade).
    • Metsie July 12, 2011 at 11:05 am

      LOL Yes Jim your absoloutly correct!
  • Alan January 20, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Metsie ……what have you been smoking?

    First off…..Jackie Robinson’s number is retired by all major league teams. A few players like Mariano Rivera were allowed to keep that number until they retire but the number 42 has not been given out for many years now!

    Second…..You claim that Gil Hodges didn’t play for the Mets. Hodges was one of the original expansion Mets in 1962 and hit the first homer for them. Gil was loved mas a Met long before he came back to be the manager!

    In so far as Seaver’s # 41 being on the walls of Shea and now Citi Field, he was and still is the greatest Met to ever put on the uniform.

    Retiring # 8 for Gary Carter is a great idea and would make a nice day for real Met fans this year. what would make it eve better would be having Yogi there and a second # 8 put on the wall at the same time. Being that Gary is so ill, Yogi could accept a uniform and present it to a member of Carter’s family if he could not attend. Knowing Gary…he’d crawl to be there.

    Finally, yes I agree that Keith’s # 17 should be retired. If the Mets announced such a day at the same time as a Carter announcement, I don’t think Keith would feel slighted if his day came second to a Cartrer/ Berra day. Keith deserves this honor being the heart and soul of the mid to late 80′s team. Best fielding first baseman in the game and a clutch hitter always…..
• NickDanger July 10, 2011 at 1:37 pm

  what team did your favorite Met start or finish his career with? Across town they embrace home grown players and retire the numbers of career players. Everytime I read a comment dogging David Wright, a player with more 100 rbi seasons than The Mick, it reminds me why we have to retire the numbers of guys who spent 5 years with the Mets. until we have an owner and fans that don’t have a, what have you done for me lately attitude, the Mets will stay on page 2 of the sports section. Does the why Thole holds the bat really bother Met fans? The Mets would have traded Posada 5 years ago.
  • Squidoo July 10, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    Did you just compare David Wright to Mickey Mantle? Really?
    • Des July 11, 2011 at 11:37 pm

      Mantle, Ford and Martin were all-time HOF Drinkers. Yup, no Met, certainly not Wright, is comparable. But Darryl and Keith might be considered.
      • NJstuckinTX January 20, 2012 at 9:53 am

        Orosco was no slouch either!
• Kmac0505 July 10, 2011 at 4:50 pm

  Personally, I feel that no numbers should ever be retired. The way the Yankees are going, there won’t be any numbers left. Players will have to wear numbers like pi or the square root of 7. I say honor our past by celebrating it in the present, on the field where all baseball celebration should take place. What better way to bridge a generation gap of baseball than a father telling his son about a great catcher who also wore number 8 back in his day. It’s better than seeing the numbers on wall with it’s omnipresent advertising.
  • Erica S. July 11, 2011 at 11:36 pm

    I agree with you completely. The Yankees are so number retiring happy, it is ridiculous at time. With that being said though, maybe a few more Met numbers deserve to be retired. Keith is the most deserving of having his number retired due partly to the fact that he is also a present day contributor to the Mets.
• Nester July 10, 2011 at 5:00 pm

  Personally, I dont think Gary Carter has any case for having his number retired by the Mets, none. On the other hand, Hernandez has a better case than carter but even his tenure with the Mets is less than a mandate for having his number retired. Hey, I got an idea. Why dont we use Tom Seaver as the lithmus test and only retire numbers who were as good or almost as good Seaver was, and lets establish that any player whose number is retired must have played for the Mets at least 10 seasons.
• Matt74 July 10, 2011 at 10:43 pm

  Talk about a blast from the past. Nice article, but there were a few good points about time spent with the team. However, I do not think Seaver thmus test. Seaver is not just a HOFer, he’s possibly a top 5 all time pitcher, depending who you talk to. By the way DC, it’s good to see you writing on this blog. It’s tough being a Met fan here in pittsburgh. I hope you’re well. 162 will always be remembered.
• Brandon Butler July 11, 2011 at 11:46 pm

  Great Article Derek. Let me be the millionth person in this chat to say welcome aboard fellow staff writer.
• NYMetsfan July 12, 2011 at 12:12 am

  I think there are some from the 73 series that should recognized, i.e. Tug MCgraw, or how about Kranpool while doesn’t have HOF numbers did play his entire career here.
• Annie Savoy July 12, 2011 at 2:55 pm

  I’m surprised that Keith’s number has not been retired. He was an exciting player to watch – all the time. He was everywhere, talked like a boss to everyone, but boy did he understand this game. He woke up the whole team and when he left his base everyone quivered with hope that it was instruction, not blame that they were going to get from him. Darling stayed on the mound, but he knew where everyone was and what was going to happen – only a pitcher knows that.

  It was interesting that Keith played for a couple of seasons with two of the other really smart baseball guys that were ever on the Mets – Seaver and Darling. Nights when I’m watching the games I have to blink to make myself stop thinking that Keith and Ronnie should be on the field – yet the Boys of Summer do grow up and in this case become the wise Men of Baseball.
• The Coop July 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm

  There needs to be a pecking order for whose number gets retired when. It’s tough to implement Red Sox-like standards because we rarely have players who are with the team 10 years (and have only one dude enshrined as a Met in the HOF). But someone like Piazza could set the trend — if he gets inducted as a Met, they have to retire his number, no question. But if he plays with the team for X amount of years, is enshrined as a Met, and does appearances as such (like Piazza the other day, wearing his Mets cap as a coach), then he should get the nod. Gary Carter is a tough, tough call. he is in the hall as a team that no longer exists, and is a member of the “ring of honor” of the legacy team. At the same time, no one has worn #8 since he was inducted…if no one is going to be “allowed” to wear it, then what’s the hold up – retire it? As for Mex, to me I feel as though he is one of the “great” Mets, his best years were already behind him when he got here. Just a matter of opinion. He is also not a member of the HOF. Which has me lean towards the Mets retiring Carter’s number first, which would be more of an overall respect thing than what he actually did for the Mets.

  On a side note, i found out something interesting. The Orioles have taken #7 out of circulation (Cal Ripken Sr.) since he passed away. Yet it’s not retired.
• jessep January 20, 2012 at 9:47 am

  So I guess my view is a little different. Keep in mind I believe both Gary and Keith deserve their #s retired by the Mets and if it were a normal scenario I’d agree that Keith should go 1st.

  I think when you talk about retiring numbers you have to throw away what every other team does and look solely at the Mets. You don’t always have to have certain stats to get your # retired. It’s about what you meant to the franchise. And Keith & Gary meant everything to the franchise and it’s fans.

  Some guys with their # retired by a team that aren’t HOF or weren’t THAT with the team for too long of a period.. Nolan Ryan with Houston, Randy Jones SD, Reggie with NYY, Rollie Fingers MIL, Mike Scott HOU

  However, the 1 thing that irks me about the Hall of Fame is that they elect people after they pass away like they did to Ron Santo. Whether you believe Santo is a HOF or not (I do), he deserved a chance to have his moment in Cooperstown and they waited and waited and then he passes away and suddenly the voters open their eyes and put him in.

  As sad of a reality as this is, Gary is not going to be here much longer. And IF the thought in the front office was ever that he deserved his # retired then it has to happen at 1 of the 1st few Citi Field games in 2012.

  Don’t insult him or his family by waiting until he passes away to then suddenly realize you should have honored him already.

  I’d hope that Keith would realize he’s 2nd not because of talent but because of father time.
• John Delcos January 20, 2012 at 9:33 am

  It is very sad to hear the discouraging medical reports about Gary Carter. After reading doctors are evaluating their next course of treatment I know from my father this isn’t good news. All you can do now is pray and hope he’s not in too much discomfort.

  Not surprisingly, Carter’s illness raised the question of whether his No. 8 should be retired.

  There is little question Carter was an integral part of the Mets’ 1986 World Series winning team, but in truth he played only four full seasons with the team, and 50 games into a fifth. Retiring a player’s uniform number should be based on long term contributions to the team and not as a sympathy gesture because of his illness.

  If the Mets were to do it, they should have done it years ago. Doing it now would be cheesy and an almost empty gesture. If the Mets do it now, entering the 50th anniversary of their existence, it wouldn’t mean anything unless he went in with company, meaning Keith Hernandez, Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, the only others from that team worthy of that honor. In looking at Mets history, also worthy – and overlooked – is Jerry Koosman.

  I was glad to see Carter inducted into the Hall of Fame, an honor he truly deserved. At the time Carter said he was torn between going in as a Met or Montreal Expo. The Hall of Fame rules state a player would go in wearing the cap of the team where he carved his niche, and with Carter, that was Montreal, regardless of the ring he earned with the Mets.

  And, that ring, as good as it was, isn’t enough to putting No. 8 on the outfield wall.
• darth minaya January 20, 2012 at 11:37 am

  I agree with Metsie. I don’t think Hernandez or Carter’s numbers should be officially retired.

  Piazza will be an interesting test.
• nathan January 20, 2012 at 12:09 pm

  Some may view Keith as a Cardinal but I am not sure how many do. I see Keith as The Mets. He was one of a very few team makers. I see Keith and Piazza having their nimbers retired but not Carter. I liked him alot and without him no WS in 86 but that can’t be the only factor. whoever brought up Wright and the lack of love has a valid point. The thing is we so rarely have a complete team all of our hopes are leveraged on one individual and if he doesn’t hold up to the pressure we as fans are let down. Mick had some awesome players to hold down the fort when he was hurt or hungover. Wright doesn’t have that luxury so he takes the brunt of a disgruntled fan base.
• theonlymaskman January 21, 2012 at 8:17 am

  It is just beyond me how many so-called Mets fans object to the retirement of Gary Carter’s number. Not only is that heartless. it is just plain ridiculous. How many championships does this franchise have? Ummm, let’s see; I guess it’s a big huge TWO! That’s 2, 2, 2, got it, not 22, not 12, just TWO! In order to get a championship, there must have been some achievers on those teams. And yes, there were. In the ’69 championship, we have the Franchise, Tom Seaver, a HOF’er and the best player ever on any Mets team. His number is retired. Hallelujah for that! Now then, what is the second championship for this franchise? Oh yeah, ’86, the championbship given to us by Kid, Keith, Mookie, Knight, and their cohorts. It’s time for that championship to be represented on the wall of retired numbers. Where better to start than with retiring #8 in honor of Gary’s accomplishments on the Mets and Yogi gets his number retired all with one action? That’s really neat and a wonderful thing for Metdom. Keith can follow at a later date, but get #8 retired while Gary is still alive and can have that tiny bit of personal satisfaction. It should have been done already, but now we have to worry if Gary will survive to opening day. If there is any decency in the Mets organization, #8 should be retired as part of Opening Day ceremonies. Hopefully Gary will able to be there with Yogi for the honor. Both of these players were stars and are HOF’ers and made contributions to the Mets. How many opportunites come along to honor such stars, personalities, and role models as these two men? Don’t blow it Mets. Make this commitment right now and if Gary is gone before Opening Day at least he will know that his number will be in that row on the wall at Citifield. Don’t wait until Gary is dead and do it then as an afterthought Have some modicum of vision and do it now! As far as Mets fans who are campaigning against it – go hang your heads in shame you poor excuses for human beings.