31
2012
Mets Mailbag: If Money Is So Tight, Why Did Mets Give Francisco So Much?
An article by Hojo's Mojo
Here’s an interesting question that was posed to Anthony DiComo who does a pretty good job in his reply.
I just watched Brad Lidge sign a one-year contract for $1 million with the Nationals. I watched the Mets sign Frank Francisco to a much larger contract. If money is so tight, why go the direction the Mets have?
There’s a reason Lidge came so cheap: He has battled some serious arm issues in recent years, and at age 35, there’s no telling when something similar might crop up again.
There’s also a difference between proceeding on a budget and proceeding as cheaply as possible. The Mets entered this offseason with a budget of between $90 million to $100 million, and about 80 percent of that money already committed to returning players. They felt relatively secure with their lineup and rotation options, prompting them to spend nearly all their free cash on relievers and bench players.
It wasn’t enough money to land one of the premier free-agent relievers on the market. But it was enough to sign who they believed was the best of the second tier in Francisco and Jon Rauch.
Might Lidge wind up being more of a bargain than Francisco? Absolutely. Might general manager Sandy Alderson regret committing $12 million to a single reliever over the next two seasons? Sure. But the Mets paid for consistency, and few relief pitchers in the game have been as consistent as Francisco over the past three years.
I really enjoy these weekly mailbag features by DiComo on MLB.com and I picked this question out because I seem to recall a comment like this in an MMO post not too long ago.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
126 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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it seems like they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t (in some quarters).
Plus, many of the posters that will scream about them not signing a guy like lidge are the same ones that would have screamed louder if they had!
Plus, you can’t really count on certain guys coming overly cheap late in the game, since you can easily find yourself without a chari when the music stops.
So, obviously they had a list of guys they wanted and what they were willing to pay, and managed to get one near the top to accept that much. Not going to break the bank in any case.
And Lidge is fine for a relatively low budget filler piece (meaning if he goes down, you aren’t hosed), But no way you could risk him as a primary guy (let alone closer).
True point. Sandy is trying to save every penny he can within a certain budget. That doesn’t mean he has to save more than the bosses told him to, hence no Lidge in lieu of Francisco.
If Sandy was making a bonifide attempt to make a run for a wild card in 2012, I would have liked to have seen Lidge sign with the Mets (if that was even feasable) for with the others obtained over the winter, our pen would seem a bit less of a problem. But Sandy isn’t so going after Lidge wouldn’t be worth the million. Give the slot to another prospect instead.
Sandy must know the inside track about the second wild card berth since he’s acting like a GM thinking it’s not going to be implemented this year.
I say wait and see.
The BP after K Rod left was terrible and it does demoralize a team to be winning in 9th, come back to get lead and the BP just hands the other team a win.
Maybe this will stabilize this team and help to make a bad season better, at least at the end of games.
Just wait and see I say.
Why? Real simple. It was a smoke screen to distract us from the fact that Jose Reyes left.
Did you fall for it?
Ya, I totally forgot about it. It’s not like it was the biggest story of the off season for the mets so far. Its not like anytime someone finds out I’m a Mets fan they as how I feel about “the Reyes thing”.
I’m sure most of the fanbase heard Frank Fransisco and thought, “Jose who?”.
No Donal, I don’t mean it in that sense. The smoke screen was a reaction to the severe backlash that came from letting Jose ‘go’ and especially to a rival. In a panic they decided to sign a few relievers to give the perception that this was all part of a ‘plan’ and not a fire sale. In the process they overpaid by a million or three.
I don’t think so. The Winter Meetings are when most of these deals go down and the Mets still needed to build their bullpen.
I really don’t see how you can possibly think they were a distraction.
It was a distration allright, either that, or writers of articles like the one below just don’t get it…
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/alderson-had-a-good-day.html
Good question, good answer. But I think the $3.5 mil used on Rauch, a non-closer reliever, was more extravagant than the $4 mil on Francisco.
They were –and still are– plenty of quality relievers like Todd Coffey out there for likely one third of the cost of Rauch.
Where’s all this Rauch hate coming from? Not just you, Clayton, but I feel like you’d actually give me an answer. People who hate on this move only ever seem to cite one bad year last year and completely ignore He has closing experience, and aside from pitching against the Yanks and Red Sox last season, he’s only had an ERA above 3.60 exactly one other time in his career, not counting the eight games in his rookie season. He’s not David Robertson or anything, but he’s a very solid, very consistent set-up man.
You are probably right in that he has/can be a quality reliever, I just see it as a waste of money when equal talent was available for much less. Would you rather have say Lidge, Coffey and say Mike MacDougal? Or Rauch. I personally would rather see a much more well rounded bullpen than putting all the eggs in one basket. Nothing against Rauch, just I saw it as frivolous on Alderson’s part.
Jon Rauch was just not a smart move. Like you said, there was(and still is) quality RP’s out there that cost less than Rauch.
Like today the Phillies signed Chad Qualls for about 1M. Jon Ruach signed for about 2M more than Qualls, even though they are the same age, both have experience closing, and have similar career numbers.
Qualls: 33Yrs old, 51 career saves, 3.78 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 543IP, 426 K’s, 150 BB’s, cost 1M
Rauch: 33Yrs old, 58 career saves, 3.82 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 520 IP, 418 K’s, 160 BB’s, cost 3.5M
The Phillies got the same pitcher as we did for less money.
I’m with you on Qualls. I wanted him last season. But the lunatic fringe was up a tree about him because I think his ERA wasn’t so hot in 2010 or something. But now he’s a good signing? Because Sandy DIDN’T sign him and someone else did?
I never said he would have been a bad signing last year.
I don’t consider you one of them. As of last tally, you’ve told me to “drop dead” zero times.
Point is, I’d like Qualls. And I said I would have wanted Lidge if people were aware of his going rate. Did you think he’d sign for a mil? My opinion since the first Monday in October was a a 12-man bullpen MINUS Beato, so he can go through some growing pains away from the prying eyes of NY. If Coffey’s still available, bring him in for a mil. Up until yesterday, I had hopes of T-Buch coming back.
I don’t consider Rauch a bad signing at all. You want to tell me he’s a mil overpaid, fine. But it’s not like they signed Bay all over again.
Vinny, that’s because the phillies GM as well as 27 more GM’s out there are outperforming the clown (s) we got in the front office
I have to ask, who is the GM that the Mets FO is beating?
Oakland, San diego, pirates maybe?
I felt better after reading this post over at SNY Why Guys back in December:
http://www.snywhyguys.com/2011/12/07/why-rebuilding-mets-are-stocking-up-on-relievers/
It explains, to some extent, Alderson’s thinking.
Good point – as a couple have pointed out here.
If they pan out and by some miracle of miracles we’re contending in part b/c of a strong BP, then they might just stick around. But reality is probably even if they’re good, we’re not contending and therefore we might get something for them at the deadline.
Alderson could’ve given him whatever amount of money.
He won’t be around at the end of the trade deadline day. He and Rauch will probably both be traded. The salary doesn’t matter as much as it’s made out to be because neither Rauch or Francisco will be here come September.
For the record though, I’m not crazy against the Rauch signing. I actually like Jon Rauch and I’d go as far to say I agree with Xtreem’s assessments on Rauch.
Vinny above is probably right on the Qualls/Rauch thing, but I stick to my guns. I really don’t feel like he’ll be here at end of the year anyway.
I was wondering the same thing. I still think we overpaid!
We should have tried to get a starter. What good is an over paid reliever when you are already losing 5-0 when he comes in!
I still think the Ffco signing is fine. Ranch was too early but maybe they saw something with his unlucky HR rate. I would be surprised if either are on the team at the end.
I don;t know anything about Farancisco other than that he throws a pretty good chair. What I do know is that Lidge stinks. And has stunk. Injuries or not, he has stunk. That is why he comes in a a miilion.
I think the mets need to finally just get rid of the wilpons, like i said before they are just letting some of the arms left just go to other teams.. also some hitters that could have help this team to maybe win at least 75 games since we don’t have any pitching, why do u give pelhey money when he stinks. that’s what i mean, where’s the money that jose was gonna get, that should have when towards players that maybe would have helped, no commitment by these owners at all. how many playoffs have we been in or world series. now do u see what i mean.
Okay so I think I know why Alderson spent so much on relievers…. just hear me out
1.) if they do awesome at the trading deadline they can get a decent prospect or two for either of them. Relievers can get you alot in the right kind of market.
2.) if they do somehow compete its awesome to have two top relievers that can help you down the stretch.
Either way its a win win
You know, that sounds very plausible
and if it’s true that Alderson spent so much on relievers because he feels they would bring the most/best prospects back then he’s already planning on becoming a seller now.
I’m sorry but I cannot agree with that type of strategy.
And if that’s how he’s thinking than he never, ever intended to sign Jose Reyes either
This is just dawning on you now? Reyes was gone the minute his agent said he wouldn’t listen to offers less than nine figures.
This.
And the obligatory ‘I just want to concentrate on baseball and won’t listen to offers in season’ comment.
Translation: He was hitting FA. Something he said a half dozen times he was excited about and looking forward to. The only way the Mets were signing him after he filed for FA was to come out the highest bidder. And we all knew that wasn’t happening.
The fact that he took the first – and what appeared to be – the only concrete offer, to sign with Miami, was very telling.
Honestly, I think Sandy thought there was still a chance. The market for Reyes was incredibly skinny and based on what we know only one team was going to match even the “sweet heart deal” the Mets were proposing. I think Alderson said if we can get him on our terms so be it… if not then wrong place wrong time. It’s no secret that the Mets have decided since the Bay backfire to be more financially conservative even with the money they do have for the most part they are not signing big risk guys to any money much less big money. Obviously some of that has to do with being broke but I think some of that also has to do with an overall plan. That is where the pro’s and anti’s disagree. At least some of us are able to do it civilly however.
There was no chance. That said, there is no way he should have said “uh, we’re broke, can’t afford him, we’re moving on…” Feigned attempt that it may be, it’s better than just tucking tail and rolling over. Now, I’m not saying that Alderson should be Baghdad Bob and spew forth crazy blatant lies, but white lies and bent truths are the medium that all GMs work with. That is fact, along with the sun rising in the east, death is inevitable and that the grass is always greener where you water it.
I am just completely sold on that fact. I think that they set aside some Jose money. Basically the effect of what the return would be in terms of sales. So again, want to stay in NY sign this reasonable deal. Want to leave and make your 100m+ then so be it, we can’t afford nor should pay that rate. Keep in mind that without the Marlins blowing him away from day one, who were the other suitors? If you were Sandy, should you have anticipated earlier that the Marlins would indeed be the ones blowing away Reyes just so they could move Hanley?
I think SA tried. Not sure that’s the same as thinking he had a chance.
That week he signed with the Marlins, SA said after talking with his agent into Friday that he thought to himself ‘we actually might have a chance to get this done and sign him’. Come Saturday, as SA pointed out, that had all changed and it was a done deal. Realistically though, I’m sure he put that chance as something like 1 in 10 odds it was going to be a reality.
I agree with TRS here. I think the Mets had a Reyes budget. I also think that increased slightly after 28 teams didn’t lift a finger and it was clear there would be no real bidding war. I also think Sandy knew it was a longshot after that $100 million dollar minimum Reyes set for himself. The money set aside for Reyes was far less than the Marlins had offered. That Friday night conversation in which the Mets made their offer was the deciding factor in Reyes going to Miami.
Because he needed to distract some mets fans from the reyes fallout.. not only he overpaid for him and rauch, but he also came out and said oh, we lost $70 the moment after batching the reyes situation, he knew he needed to do something to turn the page, so he overpaid for him and rauch. he even had some people fooled into thinking he somehow HAD A GOOD DAY because he acquire 3 relievers while totally destroying the team on the other side.. then of course, he did nothing else the rest of the offseason, but as we NOW KNOW his apologist are not blaming his ineptitude on him, but on the wilpons.. even though they’re broke, the moves sandy alderson have made are just head scratching to say the least, why invest $9 million on bullpen when the SP sucks? andres torres? pelfrey getting a raised? it seems the man can’t wait to get out of town and leave this mess he’s helping create… we lost 3 al stars and in return, we’ve got absolutely NOTHING…
Why invest 9 M on the bullpen when the starting pitching sucks?
Your Lord and Master invested 100 million and two number one draft picks on closers with either a poor rotation or an ancient one.
2006 Pedro, Glavine, Trachsel, Benson, Zambranno, Lima, Bannister, Soler and Williams were our starting pitching candidates and Humber had pitched 15 minor league games and Pelfrey none when Wagner was signed.
2009 our starting pitching candidates were Santana, Pelfrey, Maine, Perez, Redding, Livan, Figueroa, Nieve, Misch and Niese.
Wagner got 11M per year and K-Rod 12 to backup those rotations, not to mention Putz’ 5 M plus buyout. Considering 99% of MLB teams have need for 8 or 9 starting pitchers to various degrees throughout the course of a Major League season did it make sense to back so much age, injury potential, inexperience and dubious quality with expensive high end closers and give up two first round draft choices to boot?
Only if it was your Lord and Master who did so and any discussion of clutch should begin and end with Billy Wagner. 13.50 ERA over four games in the NLCS is the epitome of clutch.
agee, firsf all, omar minaya was not my lord, i sh**** on him for all the bad desicions he started making, ask you’re other buddy jesseP and from way back ask TRS86, with that being said, is easy now to second guess everything omar did, he improved the team year after year, the players failed miserably to get it done on the field, yes, after the 2008 season he was way in over his head, but i’d take minaya 10 times ahead of alderson, keep drinking his saber kool aid, it’ll take you nowhere..
also, you must not have been paying attention, i also sh*** on wagner for being unclutch as hell in the playoffs, and call him a david wrigh..errr, a choker..
again, go back and see my comments on minaya, great scout, started very well as a GM but faided because he started getting afraid of making a mistake, he stopped taking risk and went for the sure thing, but you know what, at least he tried!!! which is not the same that can be said about sandy alderson, who had a good day and disappear for the rest of the offseason… ohh, and also, i am sure you were watching all the injuries that ravage us, that was omar’s fault as well right?? you’re one of the worst people in this site, always second guessing what could’ve been, i gave you a list of all the draft picks who became bust for the mets rfight?? whether we lost draft picks or not our team was better then that it is now… omar inherited a team full of CRAP and improved , sandy inherited a team with 9 all stars… last place here we come. do the math!!!
Alex, Sandy is not my Lord and Savoir. I was on record with Ryan or Daniels but I’m certainly willing to give Alderson his fair shot. Having the ability to add 275 M in payroll in his first two years had a little to do with Minaya’s improving the team wouldn’t you say?
Plus instead of being stuck with Bay, Ollie and Castillo he got to start out with Reyes and Wright. No difference there right? Santana and K-Rod’s option didn’t provide payroll flexability either you know.
While I’ve stated many times that Minaya had very little to work with when he got here that’s not entirely true, it’s more like he didn’t have anywhere near enough but he certainly did have things to work with and to his credit he did use some of the assets he acquired wisely.
He traded Cameron, Seo, Benson, Gomez, Humber, Bell, Lindstrom, Pagan, Milledge, Diaz, Psomas, Petit, Carp, Gaby Hernandez, Jacobs, Bannister, Wilson, Butera, Jesus Flores. Sure some of these guys were involved in salary dump type deals but they still afforded him an opportunity to make some moves.
He also Kept Floyd, Glavine, Trachsel, Heilman and Piazza, brought back Endy and Feliciano and started out with two young future all stars so to say he had nothing really isn’t the truth. he had somethings, just nowhere near enough to justify going all in at the expense of not adding the high end talent behind the guys he brought in that would be here for 6-10 years in their prime.
But back to the original question was it worth giving up 11 M for Wagner and 12 M for K-Rod to back up the pitching rotation the years Minaya signed those guys? At the time I didn’t think too much about the cash but the picks worried me because the first round is where you have the best chance to get the Ike Davis, Harvey’s and Wrights from and there are LOADS of top shelf future all stars to be found in the 2nd round as well. Identifying these guys ahead of time is what Omar’s strong suit was perceived to be and nailing down 7 years of high end closers behind such weak rotations at the expense of drafting guys he could develop or move later is what caused the crash. The system was too far gone to simultaneously take away from it and not add the super high end prospects and the risk of committing so much payroll to just a few guys with no depth in the minors is directly related to the Cory Sullivan’s, Jesus Feliciano’s, Cattalonottos’, GMJ’s, Jacobs,Cora’s, Lawrence’s, William’s, ect.
The system wasn’t in a position to subtract out what we had if we weren’t bringing in better talent behind it and with an average age of acquired players as were brought in, no chance to keep it going in the right direction if it did get going.
The IFA’s take a bare minimum of 6 years for all but the best of the best. The more one dimensional types like Duda, Murphy, Gee, Stinson, Den Deker can be great parts of a winning team but there is a reason why they were passed over in the earliest rounds. All around talent capable of being above average in all aspects. Collectively these guys will give back part of what they do well on the other end and as college players have a shorter prime up here in which to combine peak performance and experience at the same time.
Could it have worked? Yeah it could of, it’s baseball. Go ask Bill Mazoraoski or Mrs. Clemente what can happen but is it likely to work? Only if every high end prospect works out and we know that’s not the case.
For the way Omar went about the job at hand to work out we would have needed the following 2011 potential lineup before factoring trades for upgrades to come to fruitation: C-Pena, 1B Davis, 2B Havens, SS Reyes, 3B Wright, LF Ratliff, CF ?, RF Fern with a rotation of Santana, Pelfrey, Niese, Moviel, Vineyard and depth of say Matz, Gee, Schwinden and Holt and a pen of Kunz, Rustich, Parnell, Nissen and Clyne, a bench of Thole, Murphy, Duda, Tejada and Javier Rodriguez.
Add in some trades, up grades, a couple of pleasant surprises and a free agent or three AFTER the build up and the bridge would have held but we all know prospects don’t always work out, that’s why you need more of them, not less. We also know that of the prospects who work out the best, most of them come from the 1st, supplemental and 2nd rounds. Exactly the rounds in which we too often gave away our draft choices.
So yeah Omar didn’t have enough when he got here to sustain a serious buildup at the Major league level and keep it going. He had two young cost controlled future All Stars and one of the best CFers of all time locked up for 7 years and a whole pile of age, injury and questionable talent and less than zero in the low minors and a few things to work with from AA on up to the 25 man roster.
Does that suggest that he should have spent two #1 picks on closers and another #1 on a 40 year old outfielder? Not to me but I am starting to wonder if he would have been run out of town by the shortsighted win now fan who instead of winning now is faced with rebuilding now, after not winning for 25 years.
agee, I was just thinking yesterday how I haven’t seen you in a while. Good to see you back
Out of town Jessep but kept current with MMO with near daily updates. Funny, some of my friends who are NYY fans now know more about the Mets than the NYY plus I hear MMO speak out of them all the time. Lord and Savoir, Accountants visor (now used whenever it’s someone else’s round) as in “break out your visor boy.” Never made an offer is for single guys who didn’t approach a pretty girl ect and so forth.
Entertaining stuff.
agee it’s easier to look back and judge minaya for what he did, and didn’t do. but is funny you mention reyes and wright, after that what else was in the minors??? slowly but he tried to rebuild the minors, it wasn;t as if he had a lot of players getting ready, and the ones that did became bust as often is the case with prospects. keep dreaming if you think all the players sandy is gettting in the minors like wheeler, fullmer, nimmo will become studs, chances are 1 of the 3 becomes average at best, 2 if he’s super lucky, it’s not a sure thing with this minor leaguers either, i once showed you a list of players we drafted in the first round and second round of the draft that didn’t even made it to the bigs.. you keep harping on something that makes no sense and make you look like a second guesser.. why don’t you do what me, bayonne, maniac, metsie and others do here and that is criticize alderson moves at the time they happened? if he’s right (he hasn’t been) and we’re wrong we’d usually admit it, it happened before with minaya, i admitted how wrong i was about murphy, but i was DEAD right on castillo and perez.. simple as that, don’t be a second guesser, it makes you look worst than what you are. and i considered you a really smart person, but you constant second guessing made me lose respect for you.
a hit by Valentin w/the bases loaded, different pitch calling when Molina was up, a couple clutch hits in 2008 & 2007 and we are spared all of this incessant and insane SECOND GUESSING
Shawn Green not catching Scott Spiezio’s triple in game 2 which was a very catchable flyball was the turning point in that whole series.He jumped for a ball he could’ve caught if he didn’t leap.The ball hit him on the wrist.He catches that ball,we never have to worry about game 7.
Excellent point Fonzie,
I never would’ve remembered that and I haven’t seen anybody else bring that up on this blog! If you haven’t been around for this second guesser, you ain’t seen nothing yet. The actual games don’t matter to that guy, he looks back years later AFTER the big, heartbreaking losses and THEN analyses them and says what should’ve been done.
I’ve never seen such blatant and creative second guessing in my entire life.
Yeah that play bothered me more than Beltran getting caught lookin at a nasty hook.
I’ve brought that play up a number of times and there’s only two reasons Shawn Green was in RF that day.
#1) He was available. In other words he wasn’t the money his current team was paying him and they wanted to get rid of him.
#2) We had no one else.
That’s it. That’s all it takes to get on the Mets. Well run teams carefully consider their options, look around, check through the farm system, other teams farm systems, major league rosters, non tenders, free agents. We have to go after guys no one wants anymore or go type A expensive free agent and hope that doesn’t bust.
As a placeholder Green was OK till Fern or Milledge might be ready but why is there never anyone ready at any position? Ike Davis is the last guy who came up here and played well on both sides of the ball. Before him there were Reyes and Wright. Before that you’d really have to back to Ordonez (adequate O considering the D and position) and Alfonzo. Before that you have to go back to guys drafted 30 years ago.
Five guys in the last 30 years isn’t getting it done.
Actually, the reason why we had Shawn Green was because Duaner Sanchez was hurt – We needed to get RP to replace him, so we traded Nady to get one. If Sanchez doesn’t get hurt, Nady is our RFer, not Green.
Fonzie, Bayonne: Hell, even after the game 2 was tied wagner blowing up in the 9th inning of that game and we wouldn’t even had a series, and on game 7. a walk a sac fly, a hbp would’ve score a run. but instead, valentine strikes out on a terrible pitch on the floor and endy flyed out to CF. to me, that was the game more than that HR heilman, who at the moment was the best mets reliever, allowed. and had not been for wagner blowing up again on the 9th inning of game 6 he would’ve been in the 9th inning of game 7th to continue the game tied 1-1…
Wagner had a reputation for blowing big games.Ask Houston and Philly.He was a flame throwing John Franco.The worst part of all that was who hit the HR. Fkn Tso Taguchi.If it was Pujols that’s 1 thing but Taguchi. I was there with my good luck Alfonzo jersey on. Still hurts.
Anyone else catch the hilarious irony that we wouldn’t have to hear about all this second guessing if only this, this, this and that happened?
well you’re a clown and you need things explained to you in old fashioned baseball language,
Exactly right, if Valentine gets a hit and Wright drives in Murphy at 3B we don’t have to read 587 manifestos by t agee about what moves SHOULD have been made.
I’m not second guessing about what should have happened. I accept it. We lost when we had a chance to win the game. That’s it.
Now here comes the semantics games that these clowns waste so much time with. It kind of goes with their entire philosophy though, they can rationalize anything with all their numbers crunching so they have a nice explanation for ever loss and there is never accoutability
My daddy is bigger than your daddy nannnnie nannniieee booooo booooo…
Ridiculous. Have a conversation with someone with out calling them a name. So your intelligence and your vocabulary.
Alex its really just a couple of people calling it 2nd guessing. I’ve been railing against the spending of #1 and #2 picks since we signed Vince Coleman and Bobby Bonilla.
I’ve also given Minaya his due with some of his moves but he was far more talented than any GM we’ve had in the recent past to build up our system into one that not only gives us good options going forward but also gives us the ability to trade for the right guy, not have to settle for “whoever is available.” Like for instance the Pineda Montero deal.
While all drafts must be looked upon in hindsight because of the nature of it I’ve been railing about what is essentially giving away our best prospect every year or our 2nd and 3rd best. I don’t mind if we do that once in a while but since 1999 we’ve given away six #1 picks, four #2 picks and three #3 picks plus we’ve made a lot of trades from the farm. Those two things combined are the biggest reason we have to keep throwing more picks away later and how we wind up with rookie 3B playing LF, rookie 1B man playing RF, no adequate catchers, undeveloped rookie pitchers with 7 ERA’s and no AAA depth.
Fact is Minaya had some depth in the upper reaches of the minors but zero backing that up and that’s why we crashed. Our fast moving guys got rushed, put in a position less likely to succeed in and we had as many guys stagnate as anyone else because we spent our top picks on trying to solve today’s problems instead of being tomorrow’s solution.
You can go back through all the drafts if you want to but what are you saying? That Steve Phillips or Al Harazin were as qualified as Omar Minaya in amateur talent evaluation? If you are I’d have to disagree, big time.
Minaya drafted in the first round Pelfrey, Davis, Havens and Harvey. That’s pretty decent with a chance to be much much better than that. If his intent was true talent instead of need and speed he probably does much better than Kunz Rustich and Holt as well in the supp round.
For a team who would be a solid candidate to be in on a wild card on Sept 15th if we had one lights out starting pitcher, three league average OFers (in all regards) and a solid defensive catcher to pair with Thole why would anyone consider it to be impossible for Minaya to have produced these needs with the picks he gave up? Maybe not all of them but how about just a LFer and a starting pitcher? Then we could have given Bay’s money to Reyes in 2010 when we should have. Hell if we weren’t going to sign Reyes we could have given that money to Chapman and traded Reyes to Cinn for Grandal last year. Numerous trade options would have existed that didn’t exist with Alou, Perez, Castillo, Schowenweiss or Bay. Numerous ones.
How do you think we got Santana, Leiter, Hampton and Piazza? by trading guys like Kevin Appier and Mel Rojas? No we got them by trading prospects that were relatively well regarded, sure there was a salary dump aspect to the whole thing but the return was weighed against the two draft picks a team would get for losing those guys and the potential upside of the prospects and the league minimum they would cost when/if they made it.
Having those former top #1 and #2 picks in your farm goes a long way toward acquiring the best talent available and not just having to settle for “who can we get” for 4-5 needs every off season and its very likely that you can get MVP votes in multiple years out of those guys yourself if you concentrate on that, draft well and develop even better.
Even Carlos Beltran in 2007 wouldn’t have been a wildly sought after trade target because only a couple of teams could have afforded him but every team could have afforded Ike Davis last off season. The whole key is to have something valuable that every team can bid on like Cinn did this year with Grandal. Now they have a young ace because they had two top prospects at catcher.
Try getting a Yasmani Grandal or a Wilin Rosario with a 40 year old Alou or Perez, Castillo or Bay.
Good luck.
Here we go again,
He wants everybody to stop their day and read all of that. Save yourselves a lot of time people, all it is is very creative SECOND GUESSING from an insane individual
agee, to end this conversation, you mention the prospects cincinnati has, good for them, but don’t forget how in the last 15 years, cincinnati has 1 playoffs berth (Swept) and has finished 4th or worst 8 out of those 15 years. usually that means good position in the draft to pick the better prospects available, shocking that after sucking for all those years, the farm has created votto, bruce.. and … um… ummm… hmmm… yeah.. exactly.. my point is, even prospects are a sure thing..
btw, to shut u up for a minute, grandal hit 300 with 14 hr and 65 rbi between Single. Double and Triple A..
willin rosario hit 200 3 8 in 60 at bats for colorado, trust me, i don’t see the big deal in that…
That’s all fair agee,we given away a lot of top picks over the years but you also have to consider the fact that the Wilpons have never really allowed their GM’s to spend on the draft.How many good players didn’t sign because of 15-25K. We have spent the 2nd or 3rd fewest amount of money on the draft going back many years and that’s unacceptable for a NY team to not use their advantageous resources to their advantage. Signing free agents is not enough to sustain winning.It only helps you for a short spike in success.
I don’t understand the part where you say: “he improved the team but the players failed.?” That sounds contradictory.
simple, check the mets record for the first 4 years after minaya.. again.. the players failed.. in 2007 the bullpen and reyes down the stretch, in 2008 the bullpen, injuries and DAVID WRIGHT failed down the strech.. in 2009 injuries to EVERYONE and david wright getting exposed were the reason the team became an afterthought.. before beltran went down with an injury, we were in first place late june… don’t forget that!!
I agree he did improve the team and you know from my past I am honest by saying that. However what I have noticed over time is that he had absolutely no plan for the future or plan how to sustain that success other than though the FA market which was ultimately his down fall. FA are VERY nice but you can’t build the entire team around them, especially if some of them are injury prone or just don’t perform.
No plan for the future huh? Who do you think all the good young Mets players on the big club now and in the minors belong to?
What the heck? Just because the front page news deals with the moves the Mets made to win with their roster means that Minaya paid no attention to the farm? Because you don’t read about it like you do know means he wasn’t working on it?
How much more shallow can u be?
Just because you are not reading all the deals Sandy is working on or the improvements in the minors…. how much more shallow can you be?
Those guys that are now in place? How many of them are we even sure of? How many of them would you want starting if this team was really in contention? Where is the pitching? This is also 2 years… 2 years later.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh!
Forgive me for not assuming what Sandy is doing, meanwhile the reality is most of the best players on the big team NOW and in the minors belong to Omar. The same Omar you just said was doing NOTHING for the future.
No wonder your little blog has no readership with your mind set
No wonder your little blog has no readership with your mind set
LMAO!!!! Cold blooded!!!! hey man, i’m out, thank god most of this discussions are while we sit in the computer…
Oooooo, lol. Nah it’s actually because it is very difficult to find quality writers that do not post things just to get hits. Nor do we allow conversations to turn into Jerry Springer on crack… but hey it is what it is. Like I said before we were running neck and neck with this place and AA but I give both credit it’s hard to find guys that are completely devoted to posting original content that meets our standards every day.
Plan for what future?? is omar’s fault that kunz a higly touted prospect didn’t pan out? or pelfrey who was great a wichita became a PO-S?? that is what jhappens to prospects, sometimes they pan out, sometimes they don’t. he got santana for nothing, the twins were asking for ellsbury, we gave up 4 bums.. go figure that.. it didn’t turn out how we expected it, but it’s not omar’s fault santana is injury prone now is it?? don’t second guess TRS, you’re one of the most knowledgeable people here/
It is not second guessing Alex, it’s taking a step back. You know my thoughts here. I think that 2006 was the Mets own worst enemy. Lots of players had career years and caused Omar to rush his philosophy. Instead of “pitching, speed and defense” we went old and high priced while cheap on the draft and drafting based on current need instead of philosophy. Basically we went all in and failed and are now paying the price for going all in and failing. Of course injury had a lot to do with that but some of that had to be expected based on who we signed and how long. Never the less ultimately they still failed and spent a ton of money doing it and out spent revenue and had no prospects ready to take over for the over priced veterans leading to digging even more in the hole by signing guys like Bay instead of figuring out our largest need, pitching.
TRS. you should know my thoughts on omar and his desicion making, i was dead against paying alou $8 million again, for luis castillo, for perez, you should know this because you often called me a hater for seeing the mistakes he was making at the time, what agee does is he second guessed everything NOW years after the fact, that’s his MO, again, i was all about pitching as well because the offense was good enough to win a lot of games ,he failed on that, but you know i got on him for that while it was happening, agee bring that up NOW, 5 years later… trust me, he does this ALL THE TIME, hence the name… second guesser!
Omar did plan for the future but his plan lacked contigincies.
Everyone knows that not every prospect makes it. Everyone, so where is our RFer 8 years after Omar was hired? Where is our CFer? Where is our LFer? Where is our catcher? Where is our second basemen? Where is our closer? Where is our set up man? Where is our LOOGY?
As it stands right this second Davis, Murphy, Duda Thole, and Tejada are the five position players developed under Minaya. It is most likely that four of them will not even merit consideration for an all star game although I do like Tejada’s chances the most and I give him a solid shot. Davis will probably be among the deserving candidates 5-10 times during his career.
OK lets call it one guaranteed and one maybe.
Starting pitching, anyone here now? Possibly Niese but I give it less than a good chance. Harvey, Mejia, Familia? Very good chance for each one of them most likely result as I see it is that two out of the three go to 3 of them each.
Most likely scenario is that Davis is among the top 5 NL east 2B for 10 years. Tejada is in the 2nd rung of top SS/2B and has an Orlando Cabrerra type career, Murphy rakes as a jack of all trades, Duda settles at 1B or DH somewhere else, Niese is a solid but unspectacular #3 starter, Thole a career backup and one of the top 3 pitching prospects a star and two of them very credible Major leaguers.
Six years, two stars, four very decent players. Not a bad job just less than what the job called for when Minaya arrived because of the situation the franchise was in at that time. Always a buyer, never a seller where his talent would have served him better.
To me the real question is how much better could we have been and for how long could we have been in the thick of it with 3 more #1 picks, two more #2′s and four more #1′s or supplementary round choices that could have been received for letting Wagner, Perez and Castillo go.
That’s nine extra picks in the top 100. I’d say Minaya hits on 3-4, two of them big time and if he doesn’t draft college relief pitchers in 2007 probably gets another. How would this team look with 3 young big time future All stars on it or close by?
He did improve the quality of the team but it only had a very short shelf life to provide any value. Most of the guys he brought in were at least 35 and in order to improve the team he had to trade from the farm and forfeit the best chances of landing a Harvey, Wright or Davis.
You can’t simultaneously trade from the farm and give away your best picks every year AND draft for need and speed when you do keep the pick and expect not to crash later.
The team already had too much age on it with Cameron, Floyd, Glavine, Trachsel to then add in Pedro, El Duque, Alou, Delgado, Lo Duca, Wagner, Castillo, Green.
How long could this team have been expected to compete?
Key word… IMPROVED.. even if it was for a short period he still did.. now, on the other hand, sandy alderson is doing nothing.. instead making the team worst..
and what the hell is wrong with a 35 year old if you feel he can fit your roster and help you win ball games?????
Of course t agee wants NO players over 29 and a team of all home grown kids.
Jamie Moyer, 2008 Phillies who over took the Mets – 16-7, 3.71 ERA. The team’s top winner, 2nd most innings pitched – 45 YEARS OLD
But t agee will harp about Moises Alou because he got hurt. Jamie Moyer at 45 could have gotten hurt too but he didn’t. And if he did you bet t agee would be 2nd guessing that move too.
Y0u get whatever players you need to win. If it’s young – good, if you need an older player than you do that too. There is NO set formula.
Giving away a #1 pick for a 40 year old OFer is not what I would consider balancing out the present vs the future especially when it was done before the non tender list even came out and especially when it requires you to expose to the rule 5 draft a 21 year old catcher who hit 21 HR’s in A+ ball and plays a position you have absolutely no other credible alternatives at above rookie league.
Basically that signing (and when it was done) cost us a very solid defensive catcher in Jesus Flores who would be the perfect compliment to Thole AND a 50/50 chance of adding another real difference maker to our 2012-2018 team. That young prospect/player could also have been traded for a guy like Pineda or may have prevented the “need” to sign Jason Bay thereby freeing up the cash to sign Reyes when we should have, in 2010. It’s all conjecture what would have and what could have happened but all teams moves are interrelated. The fact that we had Ike Davis play so well in 2010 prevented the need for us to consider signing Adam Dunn. Had we had an equally good looking corner OFer that we drafted in 2007 coming on strong might have that not made us look elsewhere? Probably would have, Who knows maybe we sign lackey or Figgins instead and wind up just as hosed. Fact is free agents aren’t much surer than 1st round draft choices except in the payroll clogging department.
One thing we can be sure of though in regard to the Alou signing though is that if it had taken place after the winter meetings we would have had room on the 40 man roster for Jesus Flores and probably brought him up from AA instead of signing 41 year old Sandy Alomar Jr or bringing up 38 year old Mike De Felice in a year we lost the pennant by one game.
Sure sometimes a 35-40 year old might be the right move but not when it costs you one, let alone two 18-21 year olds.
Anyone that says different is hanging around too many old folks homes.
Agee, this has pretty much been the Mets way of doing things since Cashen stepped down.
First it was Harazin fielding the worst team money could buy.McIlvaine was a little more towards developing the farm and was a very good at evaluating talent but Jeffy and Freddy didn’t thnk he had the “Skill Sets” to be the GM so he brings in Phillips who was very creative with trades and very aggressive in the FA market but didn’t put to much emphasis on developing talent from within.
We got a taste of contending with Phillips and he went for it,which is fine but he had no backup plan.After 2001 when Fonzie’s back went out and Piazza started to age we had no one on the farm to pass the torch to.Wright and Reyes is all that came out of the farm from Phillips tenure.
Again what you’re saying is absolutely correct,the philosophy has set us back but you can put just as much if not more blame on the Wilpons than Omar or Phillips.A few more bucks on signing bonuses and we could’ve kept some of the studs we drafted like Matt Williams,Roger Clemens,etc…It’s an absolute disgrace that we could’nt be active in the FA market and spend money on the draft.
I had no problem with Omar signing Pedro,he gave us instant credibility and also helped lure Beltran here,who I’d sign all over again. I agree with you on Wagner,I never like going long term on closers,especially a guy like Wagner who was known for folding under pressure.Like Trevor Hoffman he couldn’t close out the big games in his career.
The Alou signing I didn’t like cause he had been an injury prone player throughout his career and missed much of the previous 2 years before we got him.Losing the picks for him was bad enough but I was more disappointed that they didn’t go out and lock down a stud for the rotation after falling a buck short in the NLCS.Adding a 40 yr old Alou wasn’t enough to add to a team with title aspirtations.
Omar made some head scratching sgnings,Alou,extending Castillo although I liked the trade to get him,I hated tthe extension.Same thing for Ollie.I understand the Wagner signing,we needed a closer.I just never felt he was the guy to get the last 3 outs in a championship series.
Omar did leave us with some useable pieces going forward but not the type of impact players we may have gotten if we had kept the picks.One thing though.With the Wilpons signing the checks,there’s no gaurantee we woild’ve been able to sign those high picks.It’s not the Wilpon way of doing things.
Oh and yesI realize Williams and Clemens draftpicks came way before Phillips and Minaya but I think you get my point.Even with Cashen, Wilpon wasn’t too fond of signing bonuses.
I get your point Fonzie. The draft budget has been shameful and long before the oft ignored “slotting guidelines” came into being,
The media love the big free agent courting process and press conference to announce a signing because the story writes itself. So does the team. It garners a lot of publicity right at ticket selling time. New acquisitions are more than happy to get off to a good start with the media and for that reason are very accessable. For the fans who are just to being able to select any player they want for their fantasy baseball team it makes perfect sense, but the fan that wonders how a team in the biggest market can constantly go to war with 10 guys who wouldn’t even be backups on any other Major league team realizes just how ruinous this philosophy is.
A fan who constantly advocates the importation of other teams aging retreads should stop letting the media make up their minds for them and start looking at the actual on field results realized by the players we’ve given up draft choices for have actually produced.
Coleman, Bonilla, Saberhagen, Cedeno, Appier, Murray, Weathers, Wagner, Alou, Bay and some people want more of this.
Unbelivable.
a lot of 2nd guessing going on now that this guy is back. When it works for the Phillies it’s okay but when an older player gets hurt for the Mets, and they wind up with 2 chokes, you look back years later and THEN second guess the move. That’s ALL this guy is doing, nothing special, nothing enlightening going on.
Just a lot of SECOND GUESSING. You simply get what you need to win, if it’s young – good, if it’s an older player YES – you do it AGAIN. You get what you need AT THAT TIME and you don’t second guess it.
But this guy will go on SECOND GUESSING without any opposition except by the same people including me.
I agree Agee. The philosophy was ass backwards. The most important thing for Fred Wilpon has always been the Gate. Winning has been 2nd with these guys.
The question is,have all the GM’s since Cashen been that inept? Were they drafting the best available talent on the board or were they drafting guys that were signable due to limited options,IE,college seniors with no where else to go but in the Mets system.
I think it’s the latter due to a miniscule budget for the draft,in which case the philosophy probably didn’t make that much of a difference.
Last year was the only time that I can remember that they actually spent money on the draft.Now it’s up to the minor league instructors to develope these guys.
This is a vital year for our farm to take the next step forward. On top of the top guys,Harvey,Familia,Wheeler and Mejia.Guys like Gorski,Lagares,Valdespin,Edgin,Peavey,Havens,Goeddel all need to build on the momentum from last years breakout seasons.If the majority do then we have some valuable trade chips with a couple of good seasons under their belt.
Hopefully some of last years IFA’s and draftpicks show a little something and make our sysstem that much deeper.
Well the philosophy would have looked a lot better had Shawn Green made that catch, had Wright driven in Murphy from 3B in 08 and Jose just hit a little in 07. Throw any on the field game changing play you want as a matter of fact.
If your team’s major stars are hurt for significant periods of time that’s one thing but if you’re going to look back at moves made by the front office during playoff runs as deciding factors instead of the actual plays on the field and Lord knows as Mets fans we have enough to shake our fists at, than it’s second guessing.
Sure Castillo & Ollie were bad contracts and NOBODY could have predicted Bay to fall this far but the Mets also have not fielded a healthy team that you can evaluate fairly since 2008.
SINCE 2008! Winning cures all, it’s losing that exposes all of that other stuff and those injuries prevented the Mets from competing fairly despite those bad contracts.
IF not for those injuries you just don’t know how many successive years they would have been in contention, even counting Sandy’s regime with Ike Davis because his injury alone last year was the killer for this team.
That’s all true but if the Coupons used their resources and allowed their baseball people to spend some money on the amatuer draft then we would’ve had the farm system to withstand those injuries in 07 and 08. 2009 nothing mattered cause even hotdog vendors went on the DL
.The two years we coughed it up should’ve never happened with the type of talent they had. That’s more an indictment on ownership than it is 2nd guessing the GM as far as it goes for me.
There’s no reason why we couldn’t spend money on both FA’s and the draft. The last few years Philly has lost Utley,Rollins,Victorino,Howard,Lidge,Madson,Polanco,Hamels to extende periods with injury and they go fill the void with their farm.Brown,Kendrick,Happ,Bastardo,Mayberry. We should’ve been able to do the same thing.
The Phillies certainly did not suffer extended injuries to the extent the Mets did, no way, I’m sorry.
And forget 2009 because not only were all the starters and half the pitchers hurt but the backups and backups to backups got hurt too. And any Phillies kids that helped during that time I would think you would give credit to their scouting department. And there is nothing you can do about that. I don’t want to hear, well the Mets should have scouted better so they could have had the right pieces to step right in in case of major injuries. That’s just too fantastical and a waste of time.
It still sounds like a lot of second guessing to me, even on your part.
And also if not for those historic injuries the Mets have a LOT of minor leaguers now, obtained under Omar’s regime that may or may not develop into winning major leaguers so those huge, huge, and lengthy injuries the Mets suffered from 2009 to 2011, covering TWO GMs, hindered a run by this organization that could have segued right from those 2 collapses into establishing a newer run of their own with all the alleged talent that is in the farm now and important pieces on the big team now (Ike Davis, Tejada, Gee, Niese, Dickey, Duda, etc.)
Bottom line is this, the Mets have HAD their chances for extended playoff runs and simply LOST the games. Period. Then they got killed by major injuries to major stars and then all the other off the field nonsense came into play. But make no mistake the injuries severely curtailed what could have been a direct run from 2008 to the present.
Agree Fonzie.
A bit of irony is that the Phillies didn’t have success until they stopped signing free agents. They also had to cut bait on some guys like Schilling, Thome, Abreu, Rolen some really good players.
They did it similarly to the way the NYY did. Five core players. Rollins, Utley, Hamels, Howard and Ruiz, all sharing a portion of their prime at the same time. Then and only then did they start importing but they looked beyond just the type A free agent list.
IMO Werth and Victorinno were huge acquisitions not just for the way they performed but also for the fact that as non tenders or rule 5′s they were able to fit in rather than being the new annointed “leaders” and because there already was a core, there was something to fit into. It also didn’t hurt that these new additions were looking to make their mark rather than having just secured their last big mega deal and it certainly didn’t hurt that their addition took absolutely nothing from the future, in fact if anything their low salary allowed the Phillies to add salary elsewhere.
The Phillies made lots of trades involving some pretty damn good prospects in order to keep things going and added a couple of free agents (Ibanez not good, Lee outstanding) but they didn’t add them to get competitive, they added them after they already were competitive.
Big difference.
In this era of fantasy baseball some fans think you can just plug numbers in and a Bay for example hitting in Boston’s lineup will just push his numbers to Citi but it just doesn’t work that way. From a team chemistry point of view the free agent pitcher is usually better able to transfer his abilities because he operates more independently than an everyday guy.
Basically if you have to add 32-40 year olds to be your everyday position players your not going to be on top very long regardless of whether someone makes a catch or not.
The second guessing going on about past pennant races since this guy has come back today has been a TOTAL DISGRACE and it’s even more of a shame that it’s only me a few others that call this guy on it.
And now there’ going to go even further and say well the Mets should ALWAYS have had sufficient backups coming up from their minors. That’s unfair, unrealistic, a complete MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK mentality and reading this ingrate’s second guessing is like running your nails along a chalkboard.
Yeah and what the hell does he say about the Phillies Jamie Moyer going 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA and helping to lead his team over the mets in 2008???? I bet he’s not going to say anything about that older player because he didn’t get hurt. And Moyer had only 51 innings pitched in 2006 at the age of 43! So why didn’t they get rid of him then?
Oh and if we’re now going to go searching other team’s minor leagues to see how much better they are and how they can come up with players to replace other team’s fallen stars than what would you have said if Albert Pujols didn’t come back last year? He broke his wrist and comes back in a couple weeks? They had no sufficient replacement for Pujols and make no mistake about it if Pujols does not come back from that broken wrist the Cardinals don’t make the playoffs and don’t win the World Series! AND THAT’S ONE PLAYER!!!! Do you chastise the Cards for that? No.
The second guessing going on now since this dope has returned makes me SICK.
It really is not “too fantastical” or “a waste of time” to scout better. Scouting is, was and will always be the life blood of a baseball organization.
Always been that way, always will be that way. Certain organizations always seem to know who they want, get their work done early, offer good useful players or prospects and pick up the guys their scouts, scouting cooridinators and GM has agreed upon.
The Braves make millions of trades, lots of times addressing both current and future needs in the same trade. Think Vazquez and Logan for Melky, Dunn and Vizcaino in Dec 2009. They don’t like a guy going forward they get rid of him. Kawakami was told not to even come to ST. Their scouts find guys everywhere and with the goods in the farm they go out and get them but they don’t limit themselves, their scouts identified and signed a guy from from the Australian baseball team in the WBC that didn’t cost them any prospects.
Don’t kid yourself, scouting has a lot more to do with the Braves winning 14 Division titles in 15 years. Smoltz had one bad year in A ball as a professional when their scouts identified him. They also drafted guys like Glavine, Freeman and McCann in the 2nd round, Kimbrell in the 3rd, Justice and Gant in the 4th round, Javy Lopez , Rafeal Furcal and Martin Prado internationally and now Teheran and Delgado and don’t forget Beachy and Hanson, Heyward and Minor in the first round.
Scouting has a hell of a lot more to do with it than you could ever imagine.
And the Braves manage to do it with a 90 M payroll. Hasn’t gone up in 10 years. Think about.
Kicking our ass every year (except one) with a budget 2/3rds of ours but our fantasy approach is so much better. Yeah right.
He’s backkkkkk,
Praising the Braves, Praising the Phillies, & slamming the Mets (like always). The grass is always greener on the other side syndrome.
and SECOND GUESSING years later (like always)
The epitome of a front runner. Front runner and second guesser.
Looks like you two have a long time war going on. Bayonne you’re missing my point completely. Losing a guy like Pujols is one thing.We didn’t lose any of the Delgado’s,Beltran’s,Wright’s or Reyes’ of the world in 07 or 08. We lost a starter and some relievers.You should be able to withstand those type of injuries.
I didn’t say the Phils suffered the type of losses to injury the Mets did in 2009.That was record setting loss to injury for the Mets. They have however lost alot of time to the DL and haven’t missed a beat.
Like I said I don’t know what’s gone on in the past with you and Agee but I’m not in any way 2nd guessing the draftpicks the front offices of years past have made.I’m calling out ownership for neglecting the most important aspect of a winning franchise. There’s a big difference. ven with the near misses and heartwrenching losses,as a franchise we’ve had way too many losing years.With our resources in NY,that’s a disgrace.And if this continues then it won’t make a difference if Branch Rickey comes back from the dead to run the Mets.
Looks like you two have a long time war going on. Bayonne you’re missing my point completely. Losing a guy like Pujols is one thing.We didn’t lose any of the Delgado’s,Beltran’s,Wright’s or Reyes’ of the world in 07 or 08. We lost a starter and some relievers.You should be able to withstand those type of injuries.
I didn’t say the Phils suffered the type of losses to injury the Mets did in 2009.That was record setting loss to injury for the Mets. They have however lost alot of time to the DL and haven’t missed a beat.
Like I said I don’t know what’s gone on in the past with you and Agee but I’m not in any way 2nd guessing the draftpicks the front offices of years past have made.I’m calling out ownership for neglecting the most important aspect of a winning franchise. There’s a big difference. ven with the near misses and heartwrenching losses,as a franchise we’ve had way too many losing years.With our resources in NY,that’s a disgrace.And if this continues then it won’t make a difference if Branch Rickey comes back from the dead to run the Mets.
St Louis did lose Wainwright and their closer retired and they were still able to win 90 games. That says a lot about that franchise.I hope to say the same about our team.
i wasn’t talking about 07 & 08 when we discuss injuries – that’s pretty much understood here when we have those arguments about injuries. When we discuss the injuries it’s about 09 – 011.
If you recall I said before (and in the past) the Mets last season they were all healthy enough to contend was 2008. Since then they haven’t fielded a team that’s stayed healthy long enough to be accurately evaluated.
’07 and ’08 had injuries to Pedro, Wagner and Alou. Considering how much age there was on the team it’s hardly surprising that some players would go down. El Duque and Glavine were in their 40′s, Delgado, Lo Duca and Green mid 30′s as well.
With NO backup depth in the minors it really calls into question whether we should have spent so many 1st and 2nd round picks just to get competitive.
The fact is to a large extent a teams potential is determined by the work done, or not done in the preceeding 4-10 years. Trying to acclerate the process by going all in on type A free agents, depleting what little depth you do have in the farm through trades and rushing whoever shows even the slightest glimpse of being able to do anything can produce temporary short term results but they almost always fall short and quickly lead you back to where you started. That’s what’s happened to us three times now in the last 20 years and what do we have to show for it?
One NL East title and one World Series appearance and a really ****ty short term projection.
Hardly worth it in my opinion.
we never include 07 & 08. Those years the Mets had enough to overcome those injuries and compete for the pennant. Injuries were not an excuse there.
We always talk about 09 to 10 and now ’11 when we talk about the injuries that kept Mets from competing
But this is getting way off the initial topic and now going into the twilight zone. As is always the case with this guy – now he’s all over the place.
Oh! Did i just say that the Mets had enough to overcome their injuries in 07 & 08 to stay in competition? Now how about that.
Your point is unclear or purposely ambiguous I’m not sure which.
Jamie Moyer didn’t cost the Phillies a draft choice they traded for him.
Lance Berkman filled in quite well for Pujols and he didn’t cost any draft choices either.
St. Louis doesn’t win the world series if Pujols doesn’t come back from his injury? No ****! Wow didn’t realize that.
Very insightful analysis.
Lance Berkman didn’t fill in for Pujols because he was already starting before Pujols got hurt. And Jamie Moyer cost almost the same amount of money as Alou, and the players that the Mariners got back for Moyer didn’t make the majors, just like the picks the Giants got back from Alou didn’t make it.
Lance Berkman was already a full time player, if Pujols is out the full 4-6 weeks there is no additional replacement and the Cards don’t make it to the playoffs.
I don’t care what Jamie Moyer cost – he was 45 and went 16-7, 3.71 ERA and they WON.
You can have the last word because you ALWAYS have the last word. You are one born excuse maker and your type of rhetoric is perfect for the internet. Your silly front running, second guessing, monday morning quarterback analysis YEARS LATER loses it’s strength in real life.
Second guessing, excuse making, front running, no accountability and an excuse for everything. Those are all traits YOU stand for. That’s a LOSER’S mentality you excuse making fool.
Winners don’t do that, they take responsibility for their actions and the Mets had their opportunities FAIR AND SQUARE and lost the games. Period.
Berkman was the backup 1B whether you want to admit it or not.
Flores got hurt and got hurt again during his rehab. Does he get hurt if he’s with us? Probably who doesn’t but it’s really more about the thought process at the time we lost him.
At that time he was a 21 year old who hit 21 HR’s in A+ ball and a very well regarded defensive catcher. That’s a guy you don’t take a chance on losing in the rule 5 especially when you could have just signed Alou a week later. that’s all it would have taken to avoid losing him in the rule 5 draft. One week. Would have saved our #1 pick too because SF going after Zito most likely declines to offer arb.
I’m not saying we definitively don’t lose Flores later on due to some kind of roster screwup or that we draft a future All Star with the pick we retained, just that we would have had a chance and for a team that always has so many deficincies in the rotation, bullpen, everyday players, bench, depth how can you not make every single effort to obtain or retain players who could fill some of those weak spots.
I mean when your always pulling out the injury excuse or the who could have expected this guy to suck excuse how can you justify not doing absolutely everything possible to rectify the situation? How can anyone justify throwing away a draft choice and risking losing a player at a position of dire need that still hampers us to this day, and probably will for another few years?
Even guys that don’t make it to the Majors are assets to the organization even while their in the minors. Often times a GM will take a flyer on an underperforming guy he really liked but missed out on in the draft. Their asserts while their in your system. No one should know that better than us. How do you think we got Piazza, Leiter and Santana? Young guys like Geotz, Burnett, Petit and Mulvey were parts of those deals. Catchers are always sought after in trades. How can you justify leaving Flores unprotected when he was litterally the only credible prospect at that position that we had above rookie ball when all we had to do was wait one single week to sign Alou?
Yeah he hasn’t had much of a career to date being a rule 5 3rd string catcher for a couple of years and being hurt and then hurt again during his rehab and then being blocked by Pudge and Ramos but he would still be the best catching prospect in any level of our organization if we still had him and his age right now is the age Ruiz took over in Philly and he’s had a good run with them.
Waiting one more week before signing Alou most likely gives us a chance to add a good player and absolutely would have saved us a good prospect as well but we don’t need any of those right?
Nobody criticizes the Mets more than you do. Every move they make you have a problem with.
They sign an injury rehab you complain, they don’t sign an injury rehab you complain, someone disagrees with you you complain.
Complain, complain, complain.
We’ve tried your fantasy baseball approach for 20 years now and guess what? It doesn’t translate to real baseball. For all the teams that tried it it has worked exactly once, with the Marlins, and immediately crashed. The exception to the rule has surfaced, way back in 1997.
Wake up already.
If you don’t realize the difference between a 40 year old everyday OFer and a 47 year pitcher who plays once every 5 days I can’t help you any more.
If you can’t understand the difference in giving up a couple of marginal organizational filler types and a first round draft choice and a 21 year old catcher who hit 21 HR’s in A+ ball No one can help you.
Spin it any way you want Berkman WAS the backup at 1B even while he was the fulltime RFer and when Pujols went down Berkman went to first base and Jay or whoever went to RF. That was the plan and that’s what happened and a big part of why the Cards signed Berkman for two years was to cover themselves at 1B if they lost Pujols so that shows the intent behind the signing.
The money Moyer made has zippo to do with anything. If Alou didn’t cost a draft pick and a catcher in the rule 5 signing him would have been an inspired move. It was the fact that signing him, and when we signed him cost us a #1 pick and a good young catcher, a position we really haven’t been able to fill since and going forward.
Who’s to say we would have drafted the same guy the Giants did?
Spin it anyway you want but you know the difference.
Pujols bat was not replaced and they would not made the playoffs wiithout him.
Moyer went 16-7 and won with the Phillies and Alou got hurt. Moyer at 5 years older than Alou could have gotten hurt as well and the Mets could’ve won.
Both were old and one of them got hurt and I’m talking about 2008. You’re second guessing about what could have been since the Mets lost. You’re after the fact and second guessing.
Alou cost us a good young catcher? You mean Jesus Flores? Not him again, really? Why do you keep harping on that guy? He sucks, he has accomplished nothing in his career. He missed the enitre 2010 season, and came back this year and hit .209. And he’s not that young anymore, he’s going to be 27………Alou did more for us than Flores has done in his career.
and about the draft pick, how do you know we would have drafted anybody good? The Giants didn’t. I know we could have had a CHANCE to get somebody good, but there was just as good of a CHANCE that Alou would have gotten a big hit to put us into the posteason that year.
And your the one that’s spinning with Berkman, he was already in the lineup everyday – he did not replace Pujols’ production.
The Mets have consistently proven that giving up a #1 or #2 draft pick every year will never result in winning a World Championship and yet you continue to advocate that they keep trying to prove what they already have proven because you won’t open your eyes.
Monkeyball doesn’t work. Now we have full time starters who would at best be backups on mostly every other team.
Very few teams would hand RF to Duda. Very few would hand Murphy 2B. Very few would live with Bay’s production in LF. Very few would install Torres full time in CF and very few would count on Thole as the full time catcher but no team in MLB would have ALL of these guys in full time roles.
Individually a good case can be made for all of them and while no team doesn’t have poor hitters or defenders at some positions, no team has so many one dimensional guys being counted onto to be full time starters and guess what? The reason is, as always, there’s no one else! Why not?
Why is there never anyone else?
Cause we spend all our top draft choices on guys we can’t even trade for a used jock strap.
That’s why.
Bayonne, just do last year, his lord sandy got izzy, before trading krod the man was a perfect fit for the bullpen, he was being nice as a set up guy.. but of course, $ needed to be saved for the wilpons so krod got traded and from #4 the bullpen jumped to be the #27 in the league, and izzy flamed out as a closer.. along with parnell and co..
ohh, and btw, it ain’t about lidge, but if we have some arms already in the bullpen, signing lidge and cordero for about $5 million, we could’ve had $5 million more to spend it on a SP.. hell, we could’ve had lidge and qualls and broxton for about $7 million and saved $3 million to throw it on a SP… or maybe another bat… but as i predicted, some followers of sandy were gonna think he somehow did an awesome job this offseason, and little did you know, people in this very site started writing articles about how awesome he is and how he had a good day..
The answer is pretty straightfoward and obvious. Alderson panicked when Jose’ announced he was going to Miami. He had to put something up immediately as an offering to the fans. He pulled Francisco and Rauch out of the hat from players that were available. In this case, he paid the full price the agents were asking to make the announcement immediately. Cheap disappeared in a second when something needed to be done and market price was paid. No dancing around and fiddling on that one; Alderson pounced and opened the purse strings just for that one critcal moment in time. That moment has passed and now we’re back on Cheap Street.
What is obvious to one is oblivious to others.
No way was there time to do that on the eve of the Reyes signing. Alderson had intentions of improving the bullpen with or without Reyes. There is no connection whatsoever.
Agree.
The timing might have looked suspect to most – but as you pointed out that BP being upgraded was a priority with or w/o Reyes.
I agree with you that these were independant events. So, they paid market value for guys they wanted. That does not seem unreasonable.
besides, shouldn’t that make happy the posters that were complaining they only shopped on the reject pile for cheap reclaimation projects?
I do think that many people are not giving enough weight to the fact that they wanted guys that were healthy and could reasonably be expected to pitch the full year.
I find it really odd that almost the same people complaining that the Mets won’t spend $ on “trying to win now” then are the same exact people who are complaining about Frank Francisco getting a 5.5 and then 6.5 mil contract.
In an ideal world you aren’t looking to find your closer on a short term free agent contract, but that was the cards they were dealt.
In 2008, CJ Wilson was the closer, and Francisco only had save opportunities when Wilson was unavailable.
In 2009 he was the Opening Day Closer and 25 and blew 4
In 2010 he blew 2 early April saves and Neftali Feliz took over as closer full time
Then 2011 he was Opening Day closer and lost his gig to a guy who is on the Mets today in Jon Rauch.
I think there is a difference between a save opportunity as a middle reliever/setup guy then one when you go into the season as Closer. You always hear veteran closers say its a mind battle.
Are his #s ideal? No. But if you take his saves/opportunity from 2009-2011 (when he was actually an Opening Day Closer) you’re talking about 44/56, so that’s what 78%? That’s his last 3 years regardless of his role.
In 2009+2010, KRod saved 60 and blew 72 (83%) and got paid about $8million MORE during those years than Francisco will get from the Mets. If you toss in 2011 with the Mets it gets KRod to 84% success rate and $31.5 million paid.
If you have financial troubles and are not looking like a playoff contender, would you rather pay $31.5 million for 84% and no legitimate safety net in the pen to replace him or pay $12 million for 78% and a guy in Rauch who is capable of closing also?
So why is it the same people who complain about losing K-Rod are the same people complaining about Francisco’s 5.5 million yearly salary?
Are 5 of KRod’s Mets saves from 09-11 worth $19.5million? No.
If Money Is So Tight, Why Did Mets Give Francisco So Much?
That’s an easy one. Reyes just signed with Marlins four hours earlier. This was intended to blur the news, soften the blow, and temper the negative blowback.
But when all was said and done, this was a huge overpay for middle reliever who has sucked every time he was given a chance to close. 70 saves + 21 blown saves = $12MM Disaster.
So you think in 4 hours Sandy made all the connections he needed to make with those two relievers, work out contract details and get them in agreement JUST because Jose signed with the Marlins?
Or perhaps he had already went to them and said, ok you two in the event that Jose signs with the Marlins we are going to sign you guys to whatever you want just so … just so what? There is no angle here. Dang there is a better chance of the fictitious super hero group running around here saving Gotham than there is of this being true.
I think some of you should really work for the X-files.
Maniac, ask donal what he thinks of this move of sandy alderson.. francisco has a 767% save rate, i wonder what donal thinks of that since he thinks krod 88% save rate was TERRIBLE
alex, I will ask you again: When did I say either Rodriguez or an 88% save rate was terrible?
Why don’t you man up and actually back up what you say, like someone with an ounce of guts and integrity?
you said that in the mets chat room.. maniac is my witness.. when i said his save % was 88% you said “that’s terrible”….
Eh, you know that if I had my choice and money was not a factor at all I liked Krod. I am not sure however that he may not be at the end of his rope though. It appears that most teams believed that as well otherwise he would not have basically forced himself into a setup role on a team that most likely won’t even be in the race.
‘Are 5 of KRod’s Mets saves from 09-11 worth $19.5million? No.”
I agree, but with what the Wilpons charge for a five-pack that’s about what it would have cost a family of four to have seen them
Maybe Lidge like a lot of guys didn’t want to come here. Please wake up
You know that is something that does not get mentioned enough.
People always assume that if money matched the player would have chosen the Mets. That has not always been the case even when they were GOOD. Now that they are rebuilding that lowers the thoughts of a lot of veterans who are only taking lower salaries because they feel they either A) Have a chance to play and rebuild value or B) Have a chance to go to the post-season.
That’s a very good point trs86 and one that the more fantasy baseball oriented fan often fails to take into consideration.
In fantasy baseball one can select any player for their “team,” not so in real baseball. In real baseball available players have a choice and oftentimes other teams are deemed more attractive than us even within our own market.
Why is this? Credibility and the opportunity to win championships. Players also enjoy playing near to where they grew up, like Harang last year who took less to play at home in SD while his wife was pregnant with their twins. Garland is another guy who’s often described as a California guy. All things being equal players might just prefer the lifestyle elsewhere better than here.
Compounding the problem in NY is the cost of living, taxes, congestion and the fact that very few Major leaguers actually grew up in the tri state area. Far more grew up in California, Texas and the deep south. That’s a reality.
Even players who did eventually come here either hemmed and hawed (Bay) or would have gone crosstown for 20 M less (Beltran) or actually did choose to go elsewhere (Delgado) Very few have the NY Mets on the top of their list and that’s just a reality that the typical fantasy affiicianado fails to take into consideration.
When this team was in a true compete mode and was more than willing to over pay for services it was difficult to attract the best players, now it’s even more so the case.
The NYY once had the same problem. Players and agents were all too willing to engage the NYY in contract discussions but just to raise the price elsewhere. Now players are flattered when the NYY go after them and no one wants to leave when their deal is up. What changed? The perception of the Organization is what changed. Players and agents know the deal. Their in the baseball business. They know a well run organization from a willy nilly one. They know who’s done the necessary work beforehand to position themselves ahead of time for a long run of competability and who’s taking shortcuts that are bound to fall short and result in the 2nd half of their contract playing out 72-90 seasons.
Until this Team starts producing it’s own all around above average starting players along with a couple of true superstars thrown in here and there, backed up by credible depth both on the bench and in AAA/AA no one is going to want to come here as a first option.
Maybe they would want to come here because they would have a better opportunity to close.
And besides, this isn’t just about Qualls or Lidge(who I didn’t want anyway). The Mets approach wasn’t smart because of the amount of quality RP’s available the best plan would have been to wait for their prices to go down.
The Reds waited on Ryan Madson and got him for 8M, which is only 2M more than Francisco got – The Reds had a patient approach and because of that they got Madson at a cheap price, we had more of an aggressive approach and because of that we got Francisco and Rauch at an expensive price.
If the Mets waited they could have gotten the same quality pitchers for a lesser price, and with the money that they saved by being more patient could have been used to fill other holes on the team.
I think they rushed Rauch… say that fast.
However, remember that while ultimately Madson did sign for 8M at the time that was not the expected case at all. I think that many teams might have been in on him early in the off-season if he was only 8M. It’s all a game that is played. Do you press your luck or do you go after one of the guys you want and offer what you think is market value instead of being left out to dry? Not only that, I think he was looking for tradeable players later on and I am not sure that would have applied to a guy like Lidge.
trs: And don’t forget there are/were several reports Madson walked away from a 4 year/44 million deal from Philly. It’s not as though the market was dictating closers and late inning guys would go on the cheap.
Did they rush it? Maybe. I don’t think they got bad players and I don’t think if they over spent they harmed anything really.
I think in reality for both Francisco & Rauch, the Mets were one of the least attractive spots for a late inning reliever to come to and if you wait for the market to simmer to 1 year contracts, you could be left with Bobby Parnell as the closer.
You had Papelbon get a $50mil/4 year deal Bell get 27/3. The market for a team looking to not overspend for a closer wasn’t looking too good paired with reports of Madson’s deal falling apart.
With Rauch look at guys who got similar $ across the board… Dotel, Hawkins, Wood, Oliver, Broxton. You can make a serious case that Rauch on his best day may not be better than some of those guys on their best day but you can argue he’s healthier and more consistent.
While your point Vinny is recognized, if the Mets had sat around and waited and were then left with no closer, everybody here would have complained that guys like Francisco and Rauch ONLY signed for X, and now we have Parnell and Acosta in the 8/9th inning.
If the Reds went after Madson early they would have had to pay 4yrs 44M, but since they waited, his price dropped all the way down to 8M – Think about it. If the Mets waited on Francisco, his price probably would have dropped too. There was more guys with closing experience available than teams that needed closers – So the last guys to sign wouldn’t sign for much because no team would want to spend a lot of money on something that they didn’t really need.
So, if Francisco was one of the last ones to sign, he would HAVE to come here, because the Mets would have been the only team that would give him them opportunity to close – That’s exactly what happend with Madson, and that’s why he signed for so little.
The most likely scenario in my opinion is that the Mets looked at who was available (what’s new about that) decided on the 4-5 guys they liked the most, discussed a couple trades and the parameters of those trades and FA signings, then quickly agreed to a few of the moves they were in talks about as soon as Reyes signed………for two reasons.
#1) Now that Reyes was no longer a possibility the cash for those moves under discussion was available and wouldn’t preclude other moves later (if there were any intended other moves) and
#2) To “get out in front” of the bad news with Jose by creating another track of discussion among the fan base. That alone was worth it (to them) to spend an extra M or two.
Lets face it, the Mets are in a very precarious position from a public standpoint. Even under the best of circumstances the ownership has been extremely thin skinned and fearful of public criticism. All too often decisions have been made with a CYA priority instead of what best benefits the long term health and viability of the Franchise and that is only more true in these times and especially at the time of losing what has been the most popular homegrown Met since the days of Seaver.
Like it or not a certain fair percentage of Alderson’s job is to steer the ship through dangerous choppy waters without wrecking it on the rocks until the Wilpon can either gracefully exit or somehow manage to patch the leaking hull.
PR is a big part of every large corporation and has certainly played a large role in how we wound up in those choppy waters to begin with.
Every thinking fan understands this, even the one’s that can’t accept it and are angry about the way things are playing out and they resent being “lied to” but it’s not really being lied to, it’s just trying to buy time for the Ship to right itself by employing a more well rounded and thoughtful approach to building a team while alienating as few fans as possible.
The fact is this work had to be done at some point for this team to ever escape the shortsighted approach of only looking to the future in the most limited ways and never at the expense of this year in any way shape or form.
Once upon a time the owner across the River found himself in trouble. He used that time to retool and rebuild the NYY into a team that went to the post season 14 times in 15 years and won it all 5 times.
Back then the popular opinion was that George wouldn’t spend any money because he wouldn’t be allowed to share in the glory of any winning that went on while he was suspended. Sure it must have sucked for the fans of his team but after a dizzing array of constant turmoil, shortsighted trades like Phellps for Buhner, Willie McGhee for Bob Sykes, FA signings like Eddie Lee Whitson or Davey Collins who didn’t even have a position when he signed. Billy Martin’s 5th go around, Bobby Meachum, Howie Spira and 8 or so years of not even being in a pennant race it was time for a change. There was work that had to be done and Gene Michael commenced to start getting it done.
Impatience was replaced with patience, the shortsighted limited vision approach was replaced with a longer, broader view. The emphasis became one of building a team with just a handful of draft choices forfeited in order to be reasonably competitive and most likely after all other alternatives had been exhausted.
One #1, one #2 and one #3 draft choice’s were spent on Kenny Rodgers, Spike Owen and Danny Tartubull. That’s it. The minors were built up and prospects were kept. The chances of one of those making the HOF recently being discussed on this very website. Just one player drafted in the top 10 of the first round formed their core. Scouting and developing became the mantra. Along with Jeter 1st rnd #6 came Posada 24th rnd, Petite 22nd rnd and Bernie and Mo IFA’s. You really couldn’t have planned it any better. One SP, a closer, C, SS and CF.
Not all prospects made it, even some of the guys who made it to the Bigs didn’t pan out. Gerald Williams for instance. Others got traded for the right guy. Roberto Kelly for Paul O’neil, Tino for Heathcliff Slocum.
At some point around 1994 the NYY built what was, and I cringe when I write this, a somewhat likable team, as much as they could be. Jimmy Key, Bernie and Gerald Williams, Stanley, Velarde, Melido Perez, Pat Kelly, Jim Abbott and started to play some pretty fun to watch baseball. This ’94 team was really nothing more than a bunch of guys on their way up or trying to establish themselves. Not a superstar among them. Later on other hold the fort guys started to be signed but they didn’t cost draft choices either. Rains, Straw, Gooden but by that time the CORE was fully established and guys like Tino, O’Neil and a lowly PTBNL Scott Brosius simply extended that core and built the framework for what followed. Some other trades were made for Wells, Cone, Clemmens, Knoblauch but they all had to fit in, cause there was something to fit into, not just a whole bunch of guys on their last legs and contract.
The Mets aren’t broke because of the free agents they’ve signed over the last few years. The Mets are broke because of a whole confluence of occurrences that have nothing to do with all the under performing free agents but they HAVE left a stench in Flushing and have left a gaping hole in our minor league talent base due to the forfeiture of six 1st round draft choices and six 2nd round draft choices over the last 13 years. Sure we have some good looking prospects and I’m positive that some will pan out and a couple will become stars but guess what? The same can be said about almost every team in MLB and plenty of them are well ahead of us in this area.
Omar got our farm from dead last to about 15th or so. Mejia, Harvey and Familia are the best shots we have to become stars but they cannot do it on their own. They NEED the Wheelers, Nimmo’s, Muno’s, Evan’s, and I pray Marquez to join them up here and we NEED to have the Flores, Lagares, Kirks, Gorski’s, Edgin’s, Verret’s, Leathersich and others to make positive contributions.
This is where the patience has to come in. Prospects must be prepared to make positive contributions and to do that they must be groomed, not zoomed. Scouting evaluation and development must take priority over a potential wild card run for a couple of years. Minor leaguers must be prepared for the position they are going to play up here. Thole, Duda and Murphy collectively have more experience playing elsewhere then they do playing where they are. This is no way to run a professional baseball organization.
Will Alderson be able to pull it off? Who knows. One thing most of us can agree on is that a serious build up of top talent in the farm isn’t going to hurt his successor if he can’t, but again, the only chance he has, and by extension we have is to employ patience, realize we didn’t get in this hole overnight and it’s going to take more than a season or two for us to dig ourselves out of it.
Does it suck? Yeah it does. Did it suck for the NYY when Gene Michael began his work? Yeah it did but how many complaints do you hear from Yankee fans these days?
I am sick and tired of reading all of the so called experts who use this site as a platform for their own ego’s and clever (NOT) remarks. Yes, no real Met fan can be happy about what has happened in the last few years and what will most likely happen this coming year. Bottom line is that along with the rebuilding of Citi Field, the team and the organization are rebuilding. So, we are in fact paying the price for the mistakes that have been made in the past. The mistakes cost ownership money, prestige and might even cost the loss of control of the team itself. but Fred Wilpon won’t sell unless he is forced to and at this point it seems unlikely. Get used to it fans!
Personally, I would love to see a Mark Cuban type guy buy the team but the other owners don’t like his style. In the next two years, the Wilpon’s should concentrate on keeping the fan base as happy and interested as possible. If they are smart there will be uniform number retirements for Gary Carter and Yogi’s number 8, along with number 17 for Keith. Give away baseball bats on a revised version of Bat Day. Announce to he fans that Darryl, Doc and Ron Darling will be remembered too with some sort of event. These things will fill some of those empty seats. Make Citi Field and the property more a shrine to the history of our players and managers.No disrespect intended but enough with the Dodgers…… A light pole wit a sign “Casey’s Ct” , a “Gil Hodges” Way and a statue of our “FRANCHISE” would mean so much to the fans…..
Fellow fans….instead of dissing each other and dreaming about being the GM of the team instead of Sandy…let ownership know about what they can do to give back to us in a way that would further deepen our love for this team