23
2012
Can Sandy Alderson Avoid The Year “2″ Blues?
An article by 
As the dawn of the new millenium arrived, while people were talking about whether Y2K was going to give them the blues, the Mets were one of the best teams in the National League. They were in the middle of their only back-to-back playoff appearances in franchise history and things appeared to be on the up-and-up.
Only two years later, the Mets were at the bottom of the NL East standings, becoming laughingstocks of the league and making regular appearances on David Letterman’s Top Ten lists due to their futility on the field. How did the Mets fall so quickly from their perch atop the National League? Blame it on Y2B, otherwise known as the Year “2″ Blues, a condition that occurs every time the calendar ends in a “2″.
The Year “2″ Blues has taken other forms in the past. In the Mets’ inaugural season of 1962, fans were happy to have National League baseball back in New York. However, the product on the field was more Little League than National League, as the Mets lost a record 120 games. Ten years later, the 1972 Mets actually did well, posting an 83-73 record (six games were erased due to the first players’ strike in MLB history) and finishing in third place in the NL East. However, during that strike, the team suffered through the tragedy of losing their manager, Gil Hodges, to a fatal heart attack.
Then came the 1982 season, and Y2B as we know it today hit the Mets will full force. It all began when the Mets were looking for a power hitter and thought they found one in George Foster.
Don't look at us like that, George. You were the one who sucked as a Met.
Prior to the 1982 season, George Foster was one of the premier home run hitters in the National League. In 1977, he became the first player since Willie Mays to hit as many as 50 home runs in a season when he banged out 52 long balls for the Cincinnati Reds. He followed that up by pacing the NL in homers (40) and RBI (120) in 1978. In the six years prior to 1982, Foster was a five-time All-Star who averaged 33 HR and 112 RBI per season. He wasn’t just a home run hitter, as he batted over .300 three times and finished the six-year stretch with a .297 batting average.
In his final year in Cincinnati (1981), despite one-third of the season being wiped out by a players’ strike, Foster still managed to collect 22 HR and 90 RBI, good for third place and second place in the league, respectively, and earning him his first Silver Slugger Award (the award did not exist prior to 1980). George Foster was at the top of his game after the 1981 season, making him the top trade target for then-Mets’ general manager Frank Cashen. Oops.
On February 10, 1982, Cashen traded three players to the Reds for George Foster, hoping that this trade with Cincinnati would work out better than the ill-fated 1977 trade of Tom Seaver, which sent the Mets into the chasm they were still in. Foster responded by turning in the worst full season of his career, batting .247 with 13 HR and 70 RBI in 151 games. Needless to say, the Mets finished the 1982 season in last place. Although Foster recovered to pick up 28 HR and 90 RBI for the 1983 Mets, his batting average continued to go down (.241), and his 38 walks kept his on-base percentage down to a career-low .289. The dozens of fans at Shea Stadium had seen enough of George Foster, and he became the prime target of boo birds until his final game in New York in 1986.
The Mets did win the World Series in 1986, but by then Foster was long gone, having been released by the team in August. After their championship season, the Mets remained in contention until 1991, when they suffered their first losing season since 1983. Again, the front office felt a change was needed to bring the team back into contention in the NL East, so they opened their wallets and spent freely in 1992. What they got in return was The Worst Team Money Could Buy.
Bobby Bonilla. Bret Saberhagen. Eddie Murray. Jeff Torborg. All four had participated in the postseason for other teams prior to 1992. All four became Mets to try to recapture their prior successes in New York. All four tanked in 1992.
For Bobby Bonilla, his free agent signing meant he was coming back home. In his final season in Pittsburgh, the future Bronx tour guide hit .302 with a league-leading 44 doubles, 18 HR, 100 RBI and 102 runs scored. Once in New York, his play deteriorated, as he hit .249, drove in 70 runs and scored 62 times. His 23 doubles were barely half of his 1991 total, although he did improve his home run output by an earth-shattering one (19 HR in 2002).
Bret Saberhagen and Eddie Murray also did poorly in their first seasons in New York, as Saberhagen won only three games in an injury-plagued season and Murray batted only .261 with 16 HR, despite playing in 156 games. As a result, the Mets lost 90 games for the first time in nine years and did not finish above .500 again until 1997.
Clearly, former Manager of the Year Jeff Torborg did not have a clue how to keep his expensive bunch of underachievers focused as Bonilla became an earplug-wearing, error-questioning, reporter-threatening malcontent, Saberhagen tried to get bleach throwing to become an Olympic event and Murray became the Sultan of Sulk.
One would assume the Mets would have learned their lesson after being hit by the Y2B bug for the second time in 1992. But we all know what happens when you assume. We also know that the Mets sometimes have a hard time learning from past mistakes.
In 2002, the Mets were only two years removed from the franchise’s fourth World Series appearance. They followed up their pennant-winning campaign with a disappointing 2001 season, finishing 82-80 and needing a strong final month just to push their record above .500. General manager Steve Phillips, who wasn’t present for the previous Y2B infestations (the Mets were transitioning from Frank Cashen to Al Harazin in 1992), felt the Mets were just a few trades away from erasing the mediocrity of 2001 and returning to the playoffs. Things didn’t work out exactly as planned.
Phillips sought to improve the right side of the infield by acquiring former All-Stars Mo Vaughn and Roberto Alomar. He also wanted to add power and speed to the outfield. Enter former Mets Jeromy Burnitz and Roger Cedeño. Four words can summarize how each player did for the 2002 Mets.
Bust. Bust. Bust. Bust.
If only Mo Vaughn's batting average had been higher than his weight, things could have turned out differently for the 2002 Mets. Or not.
Mo Vaughn was the only one of the foursome who had anything resembling a productive year for the Mets in 2002 (.259, 26 HR, 72 RBI). Of course, that came from a player whose average season from 1995-2000 (.306, 38 HR, 118 RBI) left a little more to be desired.
Roberto Alomar, on the other hand, had just come off an MVP-caliber season in 2001 (Vaughn missed the entire 2001 season with an injury). Alomar hit .336 with 34 doubles, 12 triples, 20 HR, 100 RBI, 113 runs scored and 30 stolen bases for the Cleveland Indians in 2001 and was poised to become the best all-around second baseman in Mets history. That title still belongs to Edgardo Alfonzo, as Alomar was a shadow of himself in 2002. In fact, his numbers in 1½ seasons as a Met (.265, 13 HR, 75 RBI, 22 SB) were less than what he produced in his final season in Cleveland.
From 1997-2001, former Met outfielder Jeromy Burnitz was among the most consistent power threats in baseball. Playing five years in Milwaukee, Burnitz averaged 33 HR and 102 RBI per season and hoped to become the first legitimate power threat in right field for the Mets since Darryl Strawberry switched coasts following the 1990 season. That did not happen, as Burnitz collected only 19 HR and 54 RBI in 154 games in 2002, while watching his batting average dip to .215. Burnitz did follow Strawberry in one respect, as he became a Dodger in 2003 after being traded to Los Angeles in July.
Roger Cedeño came out of nowhere to have an amazing season with the Mets in 1999, batting .313 and setting the franchise record with 66 stolen bases. He was then included in the trade that netted the Mets Derek Bell and 2000 NLCS MVP Mike Hampton, but came back to New York in 2002 to join fellow ex-Met Jeromy Burnitz in the outfield. He thanked the Mets by reporting to camp out of shape and becoming the worst speedster acquisition since Vince Coleman. Cedeño finished the 2002 season by batting .260 and stealing only 25 bases in 149 games. In addition, his once-fleet feet produced only 19 doubles and two triples, but they did develop the uncanny ability to generate boos from the Shea faithful, boos that continued to be heard until the Mets’ next winning season in 2005.
That was then. This is now. The year is 2012. It’s a Y2B season.
Second-year general manager Sandy Alderson is not falling into the trap his predecessors couldn’t avoid jumping into. There have been no blockbuster trades featuring former All-Stars to report this offseason and the only acquisitions of note have been to strengthen the bullpen (Jon Rauch, Ramon Ramirez, Frank Francisco) and outfield (Andres Torres). Scott Hairston was re-signed to a one-year deal and four arbitration-eligible players (Mike Pelfrey, Manny Acosta and the aforementioned Ramirez and Torres) were signed as well.
This is not your father’s Mets team. Nor is it Frank Cashen’s, Al Harzin’s or Steve Phillips’ team. It’s a new Mets team with a different general manager who, unfortunately, is restricted by what he can do by the owners’ ongoing financial problems. However, even if the team did not have money woes, Alderson was not going to be the type of GM to make big-ticket moves just to make a splash in the free agent and trade market. He is a thinking man’s GM who takes fiscally reasonable risks, rather than ones that can blow up in his face.
Is Sandy Alderson the general manager who finally has developed immunity to the Y2B bug? Only time will tell, but the way things are being set up for the 2012 Mets and beyond, the team on the field isn’t going to be laden with malcontents and aging has-beens. The Mets are a young team that’s going to play their hearts out for the fans. They may not produce all the wins the fans would like, but they are going to be a team that’s fun to root for. That’s a lot more than could be said for the teams of George Foster, Bobby Bonilla, Roberto Alomar, et al.
About the Author: Ed Leyro
Ed Leyro was hatched in the Bronx, but spent most of his youth in Queens at Shea Stadium. Apparently, all that time spent at Mets games paid off as Ed met his wife (The Coop) for the first time at Citi Field during its inaugural season. Guess the 2009 season was good for something after all. In addition to his work at Mets Merized Online, Ed also owns, operates and is head janitor at Studious Metsimus, where he shares blogging duties with Joey Beartran. For those not in the know, Joey is a teddy bear dressed in a Mets hoodie. Clearly, Studious Metsimus is not your typical Mets blog.
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Great article as always Ed. Get ready for the onslaught of “Here’s another at Sandy’s alter” nonsense that seems to always generate here lately.
Joe Spector — both you and Ed Leyro capture different aspects of the ‘moment’. After Joe D.’s expose on what the Fred and Bud Selig were up to, I lowered my expectations a ton. I’m a happier camper now.
Oh I agree Des but I was never shocked by the financial mess this organization is in. Joe D and I were one of the firsts to lay it all out there despite the naysayers who thought we were stoking the flames like a cheap tabloid. I just think that some people comment on here from the fantasy perspective; that all acquisitions are possible because they’ve done it on their computers or Playstations or Fantasy Leagues.
They forget that there’s 29 other teams trying to improve themselves and they aren’t as willing to offer the Mets top talent in return for something less. It’s just logic. I’m still waiting to see how Alderson should have acquired Pineda from Seattle for Justin Turner and a bag of bolts from that group.
It gets old hearing how Alderson isn’t here to win or how he’s biding time until he’s the new Commisioner. Who knows what goes on in other people’s minds? I didn’t bring my crystal ball with me today, sorry. I go by the facts and the facts are this team is in a financial mess and it WILL not get better especially if they lose in court. We can blame Alderson until we’re blue in the face. Hopefully there will be no choice by MLB but to force ownership to sell but we have no power to change that either. So what do you do? You make the best of a terrible situation. Sounds like what Alderson has to do. Is it a challenge? It has to be for anyone to have accepted the job of trying to turn things around.
We’re all frustrated though but we’re tough. We’re Met fans. We’re cut from a different cloth. All of us.
Joe Spector — Right on. Alderson’s job is to execute as best he can the goals laid out to him. I’ve never blamed Sandy because that presupposes knowledge of what his challenges and goals have been and also assumes that the other teams, in this very competitive major league environment, would roll over and play dead. Yes Mets fans are tough and a few are even gullible.
Right now it looks like the ball is rolling the Mets way in federal court. Jed Rakoff saw through Picard’s trumped up expectations of what Fred and Saul should have known. Rakoff said that Picard would have to prove that the Mets owners were ‘willfully blind.’ I’m disappointed in the Wilpon regime but I’m not about to require them to be omniscient. That’s kid stuff and the BS that Picard was throwing got his case taken out of bankruptcy court and into federal court. Even if winning the case statistically is achieved by reducing the $1 Billion claim to say, $100 Million, that’s not chump change and will hurt the Mets until they sell or they’re able to replenish the team’s coffers.
I’ve been critical more of the Wilpons than Sandy for the way the team is being assembled though I’ve also been upset with the way Sandy can cover up for his bosses by looking at us with a straight face and straight in the eye and talk so convincingly about “rebuilding” when the truth is the team is “downsizing” because it is broke. Also, the lines he gave us all year regarding the contract of Jose, that the Wilpon financial situation had no effect on his operations (spring training press conference, before it became wise to talk about a $70 million loss at the end of the year), that Jose’s first injury was a day to day thing, same with Ike Davis, that we were going to be surprised at how quickly Johann would return…, the list is endless.
OK, that might be part of the job but instead of spin with no truth to it, saying nothing more than a wait and see attitude would have been more respectful to the fans and our intelligence.
But what got me really angry was not the moves Sandy was forced to make last year in terms of Young, Capuano, Caresco, Boyer, Buhholtz, etc. and the releasing of Takahashi and Felciano but the die-hard fans of sabermetrics and money ball (or simply being anti-Omar). In their devotion to computer generated analysis which also places a monetary value on a player, they claimed these as shrewd and brilliant because not being in the mainstream, Sandy is able to see things in “undervalued” players that other’s can’t and we were going to field a good team.
And these fans also re-wrote history when claiming Sandy’s use of the above put together those great Oakland clubs (and so to Billy Beane in 2002 after losing his two top hitters) which wasn’t the case. Those teams were built the traditional way and it was only when money ball came into play (for reasons also forced upon them) that Oakland nosedived.
Many of us saw what was really happening – the Mets were signing players discarded and passed over by others to fill a roster as cheaply as possible due to the Wilpon financial mess. The great strides we made last season were due to the young players coming up from Omar’s days and none of Sandy’s signings made any impact (unless one wants to call Capuano a success because he never missed a start despite usually being knocked out by the sixth inning and sporting an ERA almost 3/4 of a run higher than the league average).
Nobody is rejoicing anymore on the moves Sandy is making. Some do believe he is doing the right thing by getting rid of the veterans with the large contracts due to the reality of the financial situation and that point is debatable. But I don’t hear money ball in connection with the Mets right now and that is sure a relief.
Joey, just want to politely correct some misinformation here. Your quote “And these fans also re-wrote history when claiming Sandy’s use of the above put together those great Oakland clubs (and so to Billy Beane in 2002 after losing his two top hitters) which wasn’t the case. Those teams were built the traditional way and it was only when money ball came into play (for reasons also forced upon them) that Oakland nosedived.” doesn’t hold water. Look at the timeline.
Alderson built a farm system and also had one of the highest payrolls in the league, and the result was the late 80′s/early 90′s “dynasty” which saw five finishes 2nd place or above in the seven seasons from 1988-1994. Then the owner died in 1995 and as you put it “moneyball” was forced upon them. Alderson then had to re-tool because he was forced to slash payroll by 66% in two years, pretty much killing the major league squad from 1995-1998. When Beane took over, he continued in Alderson’s vein and then from 1999-2006, the team finished no lower than 2nd place every year and had five playoff runs, which continued even after losing Giambi and Damon (and also Izzy, a top reliever) after 2001.
So your claim that the teams were built “traditionally” and nosedived after they started using the techniques the book “Moneyball” was written about is false. Their techniques actually led to a long period of sustained success AFTER the traditional way of being active in free agency was no longer an option.
I’m sorry you were subjected to a few robots who thought the Mets would be good last season because Young and Capuano were signed and not more subjective fans who could read between the lines and saw the moves for what they were, but I’m even more sorry it seems to have affected you so much in your outlook of the front office and how they’re operating under the current situation.
To think that Beane’s Moneyball A’s success were due the techniques Beane implemented after the traditional way was not working is such a load of garbage I don’t know what else to say
Tim Hudson”
“It didn’t hurt to throw some 20-game winners out there every five days,” says Hudson, referring to the A’s terrific threesome of Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and himself.
XtreemSpinning makes like the movie and leaves out the most important reason for the A’s success. There was no magical potion or fairy tale science that paved the way otherwise it would STILL BE WORKING TODAY. It was good old fashioned pitching that was the foundation for that success
3 awesome pitchers all homerown and cost controlled with a total payroll under 40 million.Less than Bay and Santana.Lose Giambi,Damon and Isringhausen and win 102 games.Take Reyes,Delgado and Wagner off of the 2006 Mets and tell me they win the same amount of games with minimum pay scale replacements.Omar couldn’t do it with the Brinks truck the Wilpons gave him.
Yep, 3 homegrown 20 game winners – that’s the way to do it! It works all the time and it’s as simple as that.
Again, a couple of bad signings by Omar (Castillo & Perez – I don’t include Bay because NOBODY expected him to fall off like he did) make up for the Mets blowing their OWN chances to win – yep it’s Omar’s fault that Yadier Molina hit that HR and the team tanked the last couple weeks of 07 &08
Take your second guessing over to t agee’s house i’m sure you two will get along just fine.
Oh and let’s take Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, & 45 year old Jamie Moyer who went 16-7 off the 2008 Phillies and maybe it’s even
Take a hike with this second guessing baloney
It’s not 2nd guessing.Beane got a whole lot more with 40 million than Omar did with 140 million so you can go blow yourself.
yeah anybody can get the most out of 40 million when they have 3 homegrown 20 game winners you SECOND GUESSING CLOWN.
You don’t know a Goddam thing about baseball
and Vinny B is right,, how the heck did Omar Minaya get involved in this. I was responding to XtreemSpinning’s post to Joey D. I said he left out the 3 big pitchers just like the movie – that’s what i said to XtreemSpinning
Where did Omar Minaya fit into this. I know what this is though. This is Dopey Joe Diaz making this ANOTHER Omar vs. Sandy post (in a way) but I will be blamed.
Oh and let’s take Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, & 45 year old Jamie Moyer who went 16-7 off the 2008 Phillies and maybe it’s even
Yeah take away those 3 guys and replace them using about 2 million dollars.Thanks for making my point.You’re catching on.
Yep take those 3 away, give the Phillies 2 million dollars and the Mets finish in first place in 2008.
Take a hike Dopey Joe. Believe me and I bet the readers who are reading my words whether they like me or not all KNOW that I’m not making any points for you.
Dude, take your “morning paper baseball knowledge” and go blow away okay?
yeah anybody can get the most out of 40 million when they have 3 homegrown 20 game winners you SECOND GUESSING CLOWN.
First off they didn’t have 3 20 game winners and 2nd they still on with that payroll when 2 of those 3 were goneth Tejada,Damon,Giambi and Izzy yet they still won the division.
What team has 3 20 game winners and a payroll under 40 million? Do you even think before you comment? If I had a dollar for every time you 2nd guessed I’d buy out the Wilpons retart.
and Vinny B is right,, how the heck did Omar Minaya get involved in this. I was responding to XtreemSpinning’s post to Joey D. I said he left out the 3 big pitchers just like the movie – that’s what i said to XtreemSpinning
Where did Omar Minaya fit into this. I know what this is though. This is Dopey Joe Diaz making this ANOTHER Omar vs. Sandy post (in a way) but I will
Just like a thread that has nothing to do with Alderson and you turn it into an Alderson issue.Why isn’t Vinny asking you what does Alderson have to do with those threads.
Oh and by the way in 2006 Hudson,Mulder and Tejada were gone and they still made it to the ALCS,like the Mets did.
So? that’s gonna mean that the other years were all because of this fantastical new science and new use of calculators and not traditional good old fashioned pitching?
Oh but hey – Joe Blanton and Dan Haren stepped right in and 38 year old Frank Thomas hitting 39 HRs certainly helped – but don’t sign old guys right? Unless they break down than you can SECOND GUESS THE SIGNING.
When 45 year old Jamie Moyer won 16 games for the 2008 Phillies was that a good move? Oh wait but if he got hurt than it was a bad signing in the same vein as Moises Alou right?
Give me a BREAK!!!!!
AND you know what? You keep defending fairy tale principles like this Moneyball crap and keep distancing away from good old fashioned baseball to support your arguments all it tells me is that you don’t have the capabilities to think within the constraints of regular good old fashioned baseball but instead lean to some sort of fictional science. Just like a person who keeps switching religions to find their own identity
Take a hike.
So? that’s gonna mean that the other years were all because of this fantastical new science and new use of calculators and not traditional good old fashioned pitching? Yes good old fashioned pitching that he drafted when scouts told Hudson he’s to small for MLB and Zito doesn’t throw hard enough but he drafted Zito in the 1st round against his scouts better judgement.
Oh but hey – Joe Blanton and Dan Haren stepped right in and 38 year old Frank Thomas hitting 39 HRs certainly helped – but don’t sign old guys right? Unless they break down than you can SECOND GUESS THE .Never once did I say don’t sign old guys but just like Metsie you love putting words in peoples mouths. Big difference in signing a oftinjured 40 year old Alou for 2 years 16 mil and 2 draft picks than signing a DH for 500K and no picks. Blanton was borderline terrible in 2006.Haren is what they got for Mulder.Good move no?
I would never give a 46 year old 2 years and 14 million dollars so I wouldn;t have signed him a
after 2008 for that much money even though he won 16 games.He wasn’t 36 he was 46.
I could care less about moneyball despite what you think but if your going to knock the guy then have some facts available.You would sign on the dotted line right now if the Mets could make the playoffs 5 times in a 7 year span. Why not? It’s never happened before in franchise history.Wake up Mr Baseball.
Well the Twins won 2 world series from 1987 to 1991 and then were in the playoffs 3 straight years from 2002 to 2004 and actually ADVANCED in 2002. And then they were in the playoffs in 2005 and then yet AGAIN in 2009, 2010.
Why can’t we do things like them? Or it has to be 5 of 7? And without advancing.
Dopey Joe don’t even TRY and compete – go back and talk to the other people – don’t go in areas you don’t belong.
What dose Omar have to do with Billy Beane? And they aren’t good comparisons at all anyway. In 06, Omar had only one draft, and only had two offseasons to work with, for a team that lacked talent on the major league level, AND on the minor league level…… while Billy Beane was GM of that team since 98.
They aren’t good comparisons at all, and I don’t see how Omar Minaya is relevant to this discusion about Beane anyway.
What does Billy Beane have to do with the Mets? What is the obsession with Beane on this site? People like your big mouth buddy knock what he did as if he had other options.As if he chose to put a team together.If your gonna bring him up then give the guy credit for what he was able too do instead of actting like he’s destroying the Mets . Why knock him for doing what he did with 40 million when our last GM had 3 times as much and couldn’t get out of his own way. That’s why I brought him up Vin.
Beane has nothing to do with the Mets. That’s my point.
Beane has nothing to do with the Mets. Exactly.Why is his name being brought up here every day? I’m not the one bringing him up.
Well the Twins won 2 world series from 1987 to 1991 and then were in the playoffs 3 straight years from 2002 to 2004 and actually ADVANCED in 2002. And then they were in the playoffs in 2005 and then yet AGAIN in 2009, 2010.
Why can’t we do things like them? Or it has to be 5 of 7? And without advancing.
Dopey Joe don’t even TRY and compete – go back and talk to the other people – don’t go in areas you don’t belong.
Who on this site said they wouldn’t want to accomplish what the Twins have? The Wilpons asked Terry Ryan if he was interested in an interview.He declined.If you could actually comprehend what you read retart you would have read my comment when I said Terry Ryan was my 2nd choice after Jon Daniels if he would’ve left Texas. You know Daniels the sabergoon.
Another way you contradict yourself,you cry and whine that this FO should try and compete with whatever money they have and that’s exactly what Beane did but you try and find a way to disparage him.My youngest son who’s 14 runs circles around you. The dumbest poster on this site who needs Vinny B to fight his battles for him Bayass Met fan aka retart randy.
Your missing the point – your trying bring in Omar when he has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Nobody is going to say Beane did bad from 98-06, the point the Bayonne is arguing is WHY they did good those years. He’s saying it’s was done the old fashioned way, and he’s right. They developed three stud pitchers, and two good postions players(Tejada and Chavez). That’s nothing new, that’ as old as the hills.
By the way, Tim Hudson was drafted before Beane was the GM(Niether was Chavez, and Tejada was signed before he became GM too). And Hudson was undersized? Well, then I guess that’s why he was drafted in the 6th round.
Actually Vinny it’s you who’s missing the point. Didn’t I say they developed their own cost controlled pitchers? I also said they lost 3 allstars and replaced them with low salaried players and won 103 games. In 2006 they didn’t have Hudson,Mulder,TejadaGiambi and Damon still won the division and made it to te ALCS.Nobody is saying they gutted the team and rebuilt it with undervalued talent off the scrap heap.They kept losing that old fashoinled built team and kept the team contending with players nobody wanted.They averaged out the players OB% of the guys they lost and found guys with that number they lost with players that nobody else valued.So it’s not a load of garbage that they succeeded using this pilosophy.
So what that Omar’s name was in the original post.Bayonne praises him for one playoff appearance in his 2nd year as a way to knock Alderson so why can’t I bring him up.
I also disagree that you can’t comparre Omar and Beane. Why not? Beane took over an awful team in 98 and by his 3rd year he had the team in the playoffs for the 1st of 4 straight appearances.He did a hell of a job with a miniscule payroll and as his homegrown star expensive he was still able to compete.That’s all I’m saying.
Also Beane was a scout for 3 years until 93,then he was the assisstant to Alderson until he took the GM role so he was part of the organization when all those players were signed or drafted and according to Alderson,Beane was traveling all over the country scouting kids.
Should say “So whatthat Omar WASN’T in the original,not WAS.
Should say as his homegrown stars got too expensive he was still able to compete.
It is a load of garbage. It’s simply not true that they had “success” because of the low salaried players that they signed. They had success because they developed a solid core of players – That’s it. The low salaried players that they signed weren’t the reason for their so called success. They didn’t win 103 games in 02 because of Scottt Hattenburg, I bet they still win over 100 games without him anyway, their core players were the reason why.
And in 06, they didn’t replace the players they lost with low salaried players they signed, they replaced them with guys they developed like Haren, Swisher, Street and Blanton….and they still had Chavez and Zito – That core of players weren’t as good as in 02, which is why they won 93 games insetad of 103.
The only one you can say that had a big impact was Frank Thomas….And guess what his OBP was the year before the A’s signed him? .315.
And they reason why they are doing bad now is because they have done a terrible job developing players.
.
It is a load of garbage. It’s simply not true that they had “success” because of the low salaried players that they signed. They had success because they developed a solid core of players – That’s it. The low salaried players that they signed weren’t the reason for their so called success. They didn’t win 103 games in 02 because of Scottt Hattenburg, I bet they still win over 100 games without him anyway, their core players were the reason why.
Not only do you not understand what is written,like Bayass’ you change what is said. Where in the hell did I say they won 103 games because of Scott Hatteberg.The core players are not the only reason why they kept winning.They kept losing parts of that core,that’s what you are failing to comprehend.If that’s the case the Mets would’ve kept winning 97 games with the same core from 06-08 but they didn’t.
They kept losing players from that core and replaced with players at a fraction of the cost.Yes including draft picks they they made.
And in 06, they didn’t replace the players they lost with low salaried players they signed, they replaced them with guys they developed like Haren, Swisher, Street and Blanton….and they still had Chavez and Zito – That core of players weren’t as good as in 02, which is why they won 93 games insetad of 103.
First off they didn’t develope Haren they traded for him and the other guys were their own picks.What? That doesn’t count? Aren’t they cost controlled. Aren’t they forced to keep moving those guys once they start making money? If it’s just the core why couldn’t the Mets supplement their core.Delgado,Beltran,Wright,Reyes,Pedro,Johan.Why couldn’t they get useful players to supplement a core full of allstars.Why did that core go backwards with 3X as much money? Don’t give the bullshit injury excuse because they held a 7 game lead with 17 to play in 07 and a 4 game lead in the loss with 9 to play in 08.
The only one you can say that had a big impact was Frank Thomas….And guess what his OBP was the year before the A’s signed him? .315.
And they reason why they are doing bad now is because they have done a terrible job developing
The only one you can say that had a big impact was Frank Thomas….And guess what his OBP was the year before the A’s signed him? .315.
And they reason why they are doing bad now is because they have done a terrible job developing
How about giving Frank Thomas’ OB% throughout his career. Are you really going to use that 315 OB% in about 100 AB’s as the norm.More like an aberation don’t you think.I mean geez it’s only 419 for his career. He was hurt the year before.Why do you think they got him for 500K.
The only thing you’re right about is that he hasn’t develoed any good players in the last few year.He’s done well with pitchers.No impact bats.That still doesn’t take away what he accomplished with a 40 million dollar paayroll.But he can’t get credit for developing his own players.Give me a break.
Bayonne, you’d be funny if you weren’t so sad. Zito and Mulder didn’t debut till 2000 and won 16 games BETWEEN them. Hudson won 11 games in 1999. Awesome stuff right there. Totally pitching, and nothing to do with scoring runs. Also, they each only had one 20-win season, and they all came in different seasons. Seriously, leave the baseball to people who know about it and go back to your basement with the backs of your baseball cards. You’re wasting valuable bandwidth.
big deal that the 20 game wins came in different seasons – that’s relevant to NOTHING and also big deal that 2 of them had 16 wins between them in 2000 it’s the body of work. And having 4 guys hitting 25 HRs or more ALWAYS help, and 4 guys hitting 25 HRs or more has been done PLENTY of times in major league history and no statistical science and certainly NO method of building a team purely from formulating statistic is responsible for 4 guys hitting 25 or more HRs too. Add to that that you have Kevin Appier & Gil Heredia winning 15 games each with ERAs just above 4.00 smack in the middle of the steroid era – which by the way Jason Giambi who hit 43 HRs (i think) that year did. And he’s a ADMITTED user.
So XtreemFOOL don’t even try. Don’t even pretend that you can keep up with me – in your mind’s eye you think you can just like you think that building a team based solely on pure statistics because you think you can find something special and save money – can work too. Because on it’s own IT DOESN’T
These guys are not smarter than the game and their legion of androids like YOU DON’T have the answers by simply looking at a spreadsheet as well
Why don’t you and your statistics baseball and the other guy with his morning paper baseball knowledge BOTH go take a long walk on a short pier. Maybe t agee will be there to save you and all 3 of you can take a nice rowboat over to Second Guess Island.
I can run baseball circles around you and I do it all the time. Not just figuratively, but literally, too. Because unlike you, I actually have played the game. You let me know when you’re done lying about what you want people to think I said about building teams.
It’s also cute how in the span of just one post you try to say home runs were a big part of the winning, then proceed to put down Giambi’s home runs because of steroids. Both sides of the mouth in one post. Impressive. Everyone can see who the real spinner is.
i don’t think so. I think you made yourself look pretty bad with that last response – just like when you originally responded to Joey D you put the success of those A’s teams squarely on Beane’s methods without mentioning any of the pitcher’s names
No person who truly understands, respects, & appreciates the game of baseball would ever say something stupid like that as well. They would say “without those pitchers” there never would have been a book.
Take a HIKE. And make it a long one.
“It didn’t hurt to throw some 20-game winners out there every five days,”
“big deal that the 20 game wins came in different seasons – that’s relevant to NOTHING”
If it’s irrelevant, why’d YOU bring it up like it was the answer to the meaning of life? You did say it was the “most important part.” We all saw it. Everyone can see what a phony you are. I don’t even need to say anything. Hand you a little rope, and you hang yourself. Job well done. I’ll read your stammering backtracking with lots of CA
PS tomorrow morning. You made yourself look terrible there, backtracking on pitching that was developed and cost-controlled.
What a fool. That WAS part of Alderson’s and Beane’s method! Develop and control good pitching. Hell, they certainly couldn’t go buy any, could they? And it’s not like stockpiling arms is unheard of, is it? Maybe to you, but stockpiling arms is a fairly common idea dating back long before you coached Babe Ruth league.
This is so easy you’re PATHETIC beyond belief.
Anybody who read my words when I say what season they won 20 didn’t matter would have the SENSE to know that well since it’s Zito, Mulder, & Hudson we are talking about than YES it does not matter if they won 20 games in separate seasons because the other guys could be winning 16, 18, maybe 19 games or whatever at any single year so of course it doesn’t matter if the 20 game seasons occurred in different seasons.
Just go away you are killing yourself. You are doing really major damage to yourself you big mouthed empty barrel you. If you had common baseball sense you would already know those things you brainless clown.
And let me add one more thing you may have missed you complete MORON,
“Well the Twins won 2 world series from 1987 to 1991 and then were in the playoffs 3 straight years from 2002 to 2004 and actually ADVANCED in 2002. And then they were in the playoffs in 2005 and then yet AGAIN in 2009, 2010.
Why can’t we do things like them? Or it has to be 5 of 7? And without advancing”
And there’s no book about them.Why not? The Twins don’t need sabermetrics or any of that moneyball late night TV mentality:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/3040/twins-thrive-without-sabermetrics
I’d rather do things like the Twins and there’s no movie about them
All you people do is hope for guys like Santana, Bay, & even Wright to have good seasons so you can talk about trading them for prospects. As a matter of fact there’s a HIGH number of readers here who think like that – it’s almost like whoever is having a good season let’s move them for prospects.
Why so you can move those prospects when they come up? And repeat the cycle like the travesty that’s happening in Oakland now with nice, young ballplayers?
Maybe if Santana, Bay, & Wright and also Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, and let’s throw Andres Torres in there..maybe if they are all hitting then maybe if Alderson would have done a BETTER and SMARTER job of spending money and making trades and HONESTLY trying to be competitive than maybe we would be talking about competing instead of talking about Wright, Bay, & Santana having good seasons so we can trade them
It’s a disgrace around here and a lot of you should be embarrassed. What’s more embarrassing is people, old schoolers who have bought into this close-to-the-vest, non-competitve type of baseball all for HOPING that a minor leaguer or “prospect” comes through and THEN and only THEN you will decide to compete.
IT does not work that way.
When asked about rebuilding, SA specifically said this wasn’t rebuilding. He said rebuilding typically takes place when a team is lousy. Said he doesn’t believe that’s the case here as there’s talent on this team.
Agree or not, angry if you believe they’re rebuilding and won’t admit it – or not…..that’s what he said.
IMO this is more about aiding the Wilpons in treading water than anything else right now. I also believe the effort is sincere in trying to build a stronger farm system.
I can’t imagine why the Mariners wouldn’t trade Pineda for Turner.
Sometimes some people just get frustrated with the losing and the constant humiliation this team goes through in the media. Frustration needs to be vented on a scapegoat, whether it be fair or not. Alderson is that scapegoat.
I’d say it will be very difficult to avoid that Y2B thing you mention, just based on the product that has been currently been assembled and the 1-2 years it should take for the rooks to take their spots on the roster.
You could list out a hundred IFs, and unfortunately most of them would have to happen for this team not to have an extremely rough year.
If you don’t have any expectations it’s hard for a year to be a disappointment at least!
one thing this artice does point out is how quickly things can changed (good or bad). 82->86, 2000->2002->2006, etc.
don’t jinx it, the Mets can find a way to disappoint the fans. Ya gotta believe they can…
Great read.
Most Met fans saw the handwriting on the wall when Omar was let go. If it were all just about lowering payroll to save ownership for the Wilpons by slashing payroll – they could have done that while keeping Omar. There would have been no reason to pay for 2 GMs for a couple of years. There obviously was more to it than just slashing payroll. Along with that the franchise needed a new direction b/c as you’ve pointed out, some of the past plans didn’t get us anywhere.
I still believe SA was part of the Selig/Wilpon deal but only time will tell if the new direction will get us to the ultimate goal of being perennial contenders.
they knew that the payroll reductions were coming, but part of the plan had to be restructuring the organizational structure (player development included) to better position the team to succeed when things stabilize.
It looks as thought Y2B is likely to strike once more, not because of overpriced signings, but because of the paucity of quality players on the team. There are too many IF’S and not enough positive signs. Miracles can always happen and that’s what it will take this time to avoid the sting of the bug you identified. I think a follow-up article should explore the recovery timeframe required in each of the cycles you have identified. You could then calculate the average expectation for recovery, if we assume this season will be the bottom. Only time will tell, but such an article might be good for generating discussion.
Well, 72, 82 and 02 did not take long (though 73 was obviously a bit of a fluke!). 92 was slow.
+1 for Paucity.
Punt! When a team is punting the season away is a Y2 season still in play?
This was a great post and it certainly made usually blah Monday morning a thousand times better. Thanks!
As much as one can get excited for fiscally responsible risks, things being set up to win later as opposed to now, letting go of malcontents and has-beens, the team being young and playing their heart out, and the team not having Bobby Bonilla ruining childhoods of young Met fans everywhere….you STILL play to win the game.
So yes, while I might be excited to go .500 in 2-3 years, it’s still gonna be hard being a last place team this year. 4th place as our ceiling is also not that exciting.
Alderson avoided making big signings and trades because he simply had to. So you can say Alderson “avoided” Y2B, but the Mets are still going to be really bad this season… I don’t understand why it matters that Alderson didn’t bring in any big soon-to-be busts.
If it is defined by losing, it is a no doubter. Although, if you make no attempt to field a winner in 2012 can it really be the blues?
While I applaud your optimism and even agree with many of your points, the title is a bit misleading. Can Sandy Alderson avoid the blues? He’s made no attempt to avoid them. Simply filling out your bench and adding a couple of relievers is all he did. The team is considerably worse than last opening day at centerfield, rightfield, shortstop and closer. Left field is still a black hole, second base is still up in the air, so is catching, and the rotation is the same as it was. If he does suffer the blues this season (not saying he definitely will) it will be nobody’s fault but his own. Many teams make the post season every year with far less than the payroll budget Alderson has had to work with.
The best line in this article was “Dozens of fans at Shea”. All they needed was one vendor in the whole stadium in those days.
there tend to be a lot of comments that all go back tot he wilpons being broke, sandy have to cut payroll to save the wilpons money, etc.
In reality, it is the TEAM that is broke (and running a loss).So the team (sterling mets?) had to get their finances in order, whether or not the Wilpons owned the whole team, or sold part of it off.
Owners just don’t dip into their own pockets to fund huge losses normally.
Yes, they have a ton of debt too, hence the need to sell some assets (shares in the team). But the team debts need to be paid by the team.
It is a load of garbage. It’s simply not true that they had “success” because of the low salaried players that they signed. They had success because they developed a solid core of players – That’s it. The low salaried players that they signed weren’t the reason for their so called success. They didn’t win 103 games in 02 because of Scottt Hattenburg, I bet they still win over 100 games without him anyway, their core players were the reason why.
Not only do you not understnd what is written,like Bayass’ you change what is said. Where in the hell did I say they won 103 games because of Scott Hatteberg.The core players are not the only reason why they kept winning.If that’s the case the Mets would’ve kept winning 97 games with the same core from 06-08 but they didn’t.
They kept losing players from that core and replaced with players at a fraction of the cost.Yes including draft picks they they made.
And in 06, they didn’t replace the players they lost with low salaried players they signed, they replaced them with guys they developed like Haren, Swisher, Street and Blanton….and they still had Chavez and Zito – That core of players weren’t as good as in 02, which is why they won 93 games insetad of 103.
First off they didn’t develope Haren they traded for him and the other guys were their own picks.What? That doesn’t count? Aren’t they cost controlled. Aren’t they forced to keep moving those guys once they start making money? If it’s just the core why couldn’t the Mets supplement their core.Delgado,Beltran,Wright,Reyes,Pedro,Johan.Why couldn’t they get useful players to supplement a core full of allstars.Why did that core go backwards with 3X as much money? The only one you can say that had a big impact was Frank Thomas….And guess what his OBP was the year before the A’s signed him? .315.
And they reason why they are doing bad now is because they have done a terrible job developing
The only one you can say that had a big impact was Frank Thomas….And guess what his OBP was the year before the A’s signed him? .315.
And they reason why they are doing bad now is because they have done a terrible job developing
How about giving Frank Thomas’ OB% throughout his career. Are you really going to use that 315 OB% in about 100 AB’s as the norm.More like an aberation don’t you think.I mean geez it’s only 419 for his career. He was hurt the year before.Why do you think they got him for 500K.
The only thing you’re right about is that he hasn’t develoed any good players in the last few year.He’s done well with pitchers.No impact bats.That still doesn’t take away what he accomplished with a 40 million dollar paayroll.But he can’t get credit for developing his own players.Give me a break.
You said: “They kept losing that old fashoinled built team and kept the team contending with players nobody wanted.They averaged out the players OB% of the guys they lost and found guys with that number they lost with players that nobody else valued.”
Your saying the players he signed kept them contending, and I’m saying that’s false. They would have made the playoffs even without Hattenburg and Justice – No doubt. Because they weren’t impact players…..And it’s ridiculous to focus on those players and not on the real reason why they won. They won because of Zito, who won the Cy young award that year, Mulder, Hudson, Chavez and Tejada, who was the AL MVP. The guys they signed were just along for the ride, the A’s could have signed any bum of the street instead of Justice and Hattenburg and they STILL would have made the playoffs.
“How about giving Frank Thomas’ OB% throughout his career.”
Becuase he was going to be 38 and the last two years played under 75 games. Giving his career numbers would be misleading because nobody thought at that time he was going to be the same hitter he was during his prime – Which is why he signed for so little. And I’m sure Beane didn’t even expect him to play like he did.
“First off they didn’t develope Haren they traded for him and the other guys were their own picks.What? That doesn’t count?”
I am counting Haren. Mabye he wasn’t developed by the A’s, but he wasn’t an undervalued player, that nobody wanted – that what my point was about Haren.
You said: “They kept losing that old fashoined built team and kept the team contending with players nobody wanted.They averaged out the players OB% of the guys they lost and found guys with that number they lost with players that nobody else valued”
Vin you’re a gentleman so I’m not going to get into with you but if you fail to understand what I’m writing,i can’t help you
.I said “They kept losing players from that core and replaced with players at a fraction of the cost”.”Yes including draft picks they they made”.No one ever said that he gutted the team and rebuilt it with undervalued players. Somehow though he can’t take credit for his draft picks and trades for prospects which is what Haren was.A prospect.
And it’s not only the acquisitions of Hatteberg and Justice that helped them.He also acquired guys like Billy Koch and Ricardo Rincon.He also went and got Bradford from the Whitesox.A team that viewed him as AAA insurance in case of an injury.Beane saw something he liked and went and got him.They don’t win without that pen.And they were under 500 before they put Hatteberg in the lineup every day.You can’t say they didn’t produce runs.You don’t just win with a solid core.You win with a solid core and good complimentary players.Again,otherwise the Mets have the same run they did.
If it’s as easy as just the core and they would’ve won 100 games with any bums off the street then you must think if the Mets lost Keith,Dykstra/Mookie,Orosco and Strawberry for about a quarter of the season they would still win 100 games because of their core.
It’s amazing that a guy with such a small payroll could keep that team contending for 7-8 years.How he doesn’t get credit for that pitching staff is beyond me.It’s not like he was in Ruben Amaro’s position.Taking over a WS Champion with unlimited resources.
Your not getting what I’m saying. I am giving him credit for the pitching staff, and I have said that’s the biggest reason why they had good teams. The point I’m arguing here, is WHY the A’s were good. And I’m saying the reason WHY they were good is no different than all teams, they scouted and developed a solid group of players, and then surrouned them with complimentary players – That’s nothing new, that’s as old as the hills.
My point is the reason why the had “success” is no different than how other teams in the past had success….And it’s completely false that their “success” was because of Moneyball, or sabermetrics, or whatever word you want to use to describe it.
This was for Vinny B.