14
2011
The Silver Lining To This Mets Debacle?
An article by 
Every once in a while, I come across a comment on MMO that reads more like a stand-alone post and deserves special consideration. T Agee responded to my post this morning and gave me much to think about, but more importantly he reminds me of a few things that I sometimes forget while I stew in my anger over this whole Wilpon-induced mess the Mets find themselves in.
Anyway, check it out:
Joe, I don’t think anyone feels Alderson is the only GM who intends to build up the minors. Shortsighted people are in an uproar because more of the expenses are being shifted there rather than to the Major League roster. This is a marked departure from the way the Mets have done business over the last 25 years and people are used to having a Jason Bay, Vince Coleman, Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar or Scott Schowenweiss to drool over all winter long.
That wasn’t always the case. When Joan Payson was here she spent a lot of money acquiring the best amateur talent possible and hired the right people to scout and develop that talent. Almost all of the 1969 Mets were acquired BEFORE their even was a draft so those players were available to anyone who wanted to sign them. Trades and forming platoons filled in where we didn’t have solutions.
Frank Cashen didn’t sign one single free agent. He traded off the Major league roster for additional pieces to add to his build up of the minors and then when he knew what he had traded some of his prospects to round out and fill in on the Major league roster. He did both things. First he traded for prospects, then he traded prospects to upgrade. For 25 years now we’ve only concerned our selves with trades or free agent signings that address talent shortfalls in the system rather than addressing the REASON we have all those holes to begin with.
Does anyone really believe that we would have signed Luis Castillo for four years if we had a Tejada/Havens/Valdespin performing in AA or AAA? Would we have signed an Oliver Perez if we had Mejia/Familia/Harvey/Wheeler in AA or AAA? Of course not. Those guys were signed or resigned because we DIDN’T have anyone close by. The key now is to follow up those guys with MORE guys so that our best years aren’t missing the playoffs by one game and then falling back on the same old tired mantra of “who could have known that so and so would fall off a cliff the minute we signed him?” or “who else were we going to get to play __________?”
The pendulum has shifted away from over spending for guys who hamstring your payroll and clog up your roster and play no better than a platoon made up of two non tenders and frequently don’t even do that well. If the pendulum had been 50/50 the last quarter of a century I can guarantee you that we would have made the playoffs more than 4 times.
As for the Wilpon’s, their either in dire financial straits and holding onto the team anyway possible or they are cutting back on payroll inorder to save the money they have to give back or they could be devesting the team of financial commitments in order to sell it.
There is a 4th possibility though and I think this one is the most likely. They may very well be purposely devaluing the franchise and taking on additional debt in order to get their equity in the team to zero that way the franchise won’t be of any use to Picard and they can’t be forced to sell it to pay off any liabilities in the lawsuits filed against them after the clawback is settled.
Regardless it makes no sense to blame the spokesman. Alderson was hired to shed payroll and put out the best team possible while doing so. Players know the deal. Anyone with any better options aren’t coming here. They know that for three or four years we’ll have to go with what we have or what we can get on the cheap so that just shrinks a really small pool of good available players every off season to next to nill.
For over two decades we have settled for whoever was available every off season and then spent whatever was necessary to acquire them as our basic method of procurring talent and we’ve gone to playoffs 4 times in 25 years with 3 near misses using this plan and that’s with the highest payroll in the NL so 7 times in 25 years we were in it and 18 times we weren’t and one of those times we were was the tail end of of a purposeful buildup of the minors so in reality having the pendulum stuck on this year every year has resulted in as many playoff appearances in the last quarter of a century as the Pittsburgh Pirates.
The question should really be doesn’t anyone aspire to be better than that? If your answer is yes then there’s really only one way to go about it and that’s to build your 25 in a way that doesn’t cost you one single player from future years teams and instead ADDS players to future years teams when possible. If THAT had been done around here not only would would our results have been much better, but our future would be a lot brighter too and everything else would have fallen into place.
You cannot make up for the work not done (or done poorly) in the previous decade by going out and signing whoever happens to be available every year.
That’s already been proven by us 18 times in the last 25 years.
I think we can all agree that we are now at a point where drastic philosophical changes are necessary. What those changes are and how they will ultimately change the future of this franchise won’t be known for quite some time. But for real and lasting change to happen, we must rely on an ownership group who is up for the challenge, dedicated to our goals, and committed to making the changes necessary to achieve those goals.
All championships begin at the farm – so obviously that’s a good place to start and to expend the most focus and resources.
My concern is that a championship caliber team must also be supplemented by smart trades and good signings via free agency, and those moves usually require a sizable financial investment.
My fear is that no matter how good Familia, Harvey and Wheeler are in 2014, what good will it do with an ownership that is unable to afford what it would cost to surround them with the players we would need to make the team as relevant as we are being led to believe.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
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I couldn’t agree more with T Agee. Especially this one line:
‘…it makes no sense to blame the spokesman.’
Same as don’t shoot the messenger. Alderson didn’t create this mess, he’s got no financial stake in what happens to the Wilpons and their team. I do believe he’s part of the deal the Wilpons made with Selig though. Otherwise, if it was just about solely slashing payroll, they could have kept Minaya and done that while saving a couple of bucks in not having to pay 2 GMs.
Oh but every player move Alderson has made has been the best possible one right?
Nope, whose is?
With the budget he’s got to work with? Probably close.
There isn’t one GM out there that makes 100% guaranteed moves. Not one. So I’m not expecting Alderson to either. Taking a chance on a Rule V guy for example. are calculated moves that sometimes do or do not work out.
I was in the minority in them wanting to offer Reyes a contract after the 2010 off season when I think he could have been had for far less. FO just didn’t want to take the chance? Or knew there was no money all along? I’ll never know.
I’m sure Alderson, along with all other Met fans – would love to have kept Reyes, signed a front end of the rotation starter, high end closer, etc.
I don’t think any one move last year cost us a chance for post season. Especially not with the way it worked out. Even if we did squeak by as the WC, how far would we have got with that rotation? By then Niese was shut down, Pelf was being Pelf, Cap (one great game aside) couldn’t seem to get out of the 6th, etc. etc. Not to mention Murph/Ike/Duda not available for post season.
well in that scenario that mean the Mets are drawing crowds in September and making a lot more money. So if Alderson did not have the best off season he could have had last year than it was a major, critical error right away. And if it were Omar Minaya people here would have been all over his case but naturally Saber Sandy gets a pass when in fact, it looks like he had a terrible offseason that could have been better regardless of the budget.
I’ll agree about the bigger revenue had we stayed close the whole year.
I’m still not shooting the messenger on the results though.
Let’s face it, if Omar was still here, the Wilpons aren’t broke, Reyes probably is resigned, KRod might not have been traded. But that’s not the reality.
If you read enough sports analysts and beat writers going into 2011, they all had the Mets finishing around .500. Some of them came out and said that’s b/c they fully expected the Mets to be sellers at the trade deadline. They certainly weren’t that far off….
ah so now you’re deflecting to the local beat writers to get away from the fact that I was probably right – a better job by saber sandy could have had the team more relevant later in the season. But he did not do a better job, he did a terrible job and it contributed to the Mets miseries.
What would you have done instead. Lets say no financial issues, payroll at 150m last year and this, what would you do?
I understand your challenge but the fact that the finances did play a role makes it not much of a challenge. Do it without adding payroll.
Last year payroll came in at 145m. I am just trying to give in to the delusion that it’s possible today. It’s an unfair challenge. We can’t assume what trades could be made or what FA’s would be willing to come to NY but I want to hear what this guy has to say. When ever I troll here I see lots of telling people their wrong but not many solutions.
If sandy had anything extra last year he would have used it. No Gm is going to work on that tight of a margin if he doesn’t have to, just because it gets his rocks off to be scrooge.
Vinny I think this is the original post:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/mmo-fan-shot-pinky-and-the-brain.html
Oh any so now you say if Sandy had anything extra he would have used it. So you do make excuses for him. What if he did have extra but decided to use it instead for the draft, walls, etc.,? Oh wait…he did.
You’re just proving to be another excuse maker for Alderson who doesn’t question anything he does. Unbelievable around here.
Yup. That’s it. Sandy hired me to spread positive PR out on the blogs.
But, good to know that you think they should only spend on the roster even if it means cutting out anything else teams have to spend on. Fire all the scouts too, since a laptop and spreadsheet are all you need.
but, if you think that Fred handed him a budget and he refused to spend more than the minimal amount he did, just to make some kind of point no one but you understand, than more power to you.
Good, you believe Sandy spent on the roster all that he could and I’m saying there’s equal reason to believe he did not. Based on his reputation alone it’s not inconceivable that he did not spend all that he can to improve the roster he inherited. Not only do i say he did not spend all that he could have but i think it’s more likely that he did not spend all he could have.
And if I was to be proven right, of course we’ll never know, but if that was the case than not only was his judgement terrible based on the players he picked but he could be responsible for some of that 70mil loss because he may not have felt that the team he inherited did not make him feel certain enough that it was a contender so instead of filling in that uncertainty he decided to spend as little as possible.
Excuse me for not letting him think for me like you do. According to you his off season last year is not to be questioned because he got the best talent that he possibly could have.
You can’t even question him. Sad.
I think it’s very likely that Harazin Phillips and Minaya could have spent the money we KNOW they had a lot more wisely than they did but of course hamstringing the payroll and clogging up the roster with guys you cant give away at any price is perfectly acceptable……..Right.
Sure complain about Alderson holding back some money to send along with Beltran to pick up a top 50 prospect. Spending 2.5 M on a high school kid in the draft that might not pay off for 5 years (if ever)
**** Oliver Perez didn’t have anything to do with lousy attendance in 2009 did he? Of course not. The walk up window was jammed on days that he pitched.
Everyone flocked to Shea to see if Vince Coleman would be playing today.
Jeremy Burnitz was a huge a huge attendance booster while he was here.
Mo Vaughn was a big crowd favorite.
Bobby Bo too, both tours of duty.
Besides how would we have found any room for all these additional fans with people flocking to Citi to see Jason Bay?
We went over this a 100 times, and I’m not going to go over it all over again – if you want to see it, read the comments on this post:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/10/no-thanks-to-c-j.html#comments
Everything possible about last offseason is discussed here.
I love this comment:
“That’s 13.2 million…..I think the Mets could have easily afforded that. And it would have been worth it if the mets spent a little more – Look at their numbers:”
Hindsight, also using what you THINK they could have afforded. Man that was a waste of time. Here I was hoping it was a link to 2010 where you outlined your plan within the budget and we could compare the two.
Not hindsight, because those were the same EXACT players I said we should sign during that offseason( i guess you missed reading that part)….and I said they would have made a big difference during the offseason, and I was right.
Also, 13.2M wasn’t much more than what the Mets actually spent.
Can you link to the exact players you said you would sign from 2010? Otherwise it is indeed hindsight and hearsay.
I don’t remember what post it was under, but I’m sure you can ask t agee, or Bayonne. We debated those players the whole winter long.
Everything I said there, was the same exact thing I said before the offseaon and during the offseason – Ask anyone they will tell you.
TRS it is the championship core of:
“Harang, Wang, Millwood, Vogelsong, Colon, Garica, Bedard, Choate, Coffey, Jaun Cruz, Dotel, Qualls, Saito, Sherrill, Koji Uheara, Dan Wheeler, Kotchman, Bloomquist, Andruw Jones, Melky Caberera, and finally….Jeff Francoeur.
Do you know what that list was meant for? Or are you going to spin it like t agee and others did a few months ago?
Listing a bunch of players is not what I am looking for. I am looking for your specific plan on “I would sign the following players…” from 2010.
I did give a specific plan,
However THAT list wasn’t a specific plan, it was answer to somebody’s question that somebody asked me a month prior to that..
Where is the specific plan of who exactly to sign?
It wasn’t hindsight he did mention all of them at various points during the offseason.
Before many were even signed!
Too bad your still new here (my guess an import to help Jessup and the other apologists) and weren’t around to read how smart many of the people who are unhappy now were with regard to finding cheap but EFFECTIVE players as opposed to the crap we been signing!
Why are things always about sides? Hilarious to think that Jessup recruited a guy who owns his own moderately successful Mets blog to come in and defend HIS point of view? Why the hell would I do that?
Well your here and not on your moderatly successful Blog aren’t you?
Why would you post here if not to help distribute the SUNSHINE you believe Sandy is bringing to the Mets and helping Jessup who seems to be intent on the same goal!
Answer me this…
Is this team better than the 2010 team right now?
If so how do you explain the 2 fewer loses while having 4 productive months from Beltran as opposed to the one productive month he gave us in 2010?
Can you answer that without saying Wilpon and Finances?
Exactly what I was expecting. Not one plausible solution.
Actually it was very plausible.
Your just saying that it’s not because you don’t want to say anything negative about Alderson. Like I said, no matter what happens, Aldeson will never be viewed negativley by some people.
I have no problem with viewing anyone negatively, I just don’t believe that the focus of blame should be on him right now. I was happy with the KROD and Beltran trades. I wanted Reyes traded last year (ask anyone here that frequents the Real Dirty Mets Blog), so I am not happy how that played out. I would love to see the team grab someone like a Buehrle but also understand it probably doesn’t make that much sense to spend money on a guy like that, when the team is hemorrhaging money right now, and based on the state of the team why would he want to sign with the Mets anyway.
The team needs to rebuild the foundation before adding another roof.
Here is the quote that sums it up perfectly from Bayonne (and this isn’t anything against Bayonne this is a common thought):
“Sandy inherited a team that can still contend but just didn’t the last couple years mainly because of injuries. Especially 2009.”
The people that believe this are the people that are against the measures the team is taking now. That team last got it done in ’96. How many years of failures and costly free agents before the team changes direction. It’s the old saying: “The definition of insanity is doing the same task and expecting different outcomes” .
No matter what payroll is, that team did not get it done and where not getting it done and now all these corrective measure have to be put in place because they blew their wad and the plan failed.
The team didn’t get it done because most of the team was on the DL.
The DL is a factor of performance and every team has to deal with it. When you blow your wad in FA and sacrifice depth and the bullpen because of it, then those players better not get hurt.
Sorry, no amount of depth could help you make the playoffs with as many devestating injuries the Mets had the last few years – They didn’t lose key guys for weeks at a time, but for months at a time – no way you can plan for that.
If there was depth in the bullpen like there was in ’06, it is very possible that there would have been different results in ’07 and ’08. Or not relying on Glavine and Pedro in the rotation. The DL year was ’09 and at that point there were to many “if this happens” and “if this breaks the right way” that hinged on the team being successful.
I’m talking about 09-11, not 07 and 08.
And that goes back to my original comment about the “definition of insanity”.
This year’s Cardinals fly right in the face of anything anyone can say about injuries, and that is most people wrote off St. Louis when Adam Wainwright went down in March and signed Lance Berkman for a song. Good organizations have good backups and a way to weather injuries.
I remember 1987 very well- that year all 5 of the Mets starters spent significant time on the DL- Ojeda with an elbow, Gooden with the drugs, Fernandez with a knee, Cone with a pinkie, and Darling with a thumb and not to mention Rick Aguilera with his elbow problems. The Mets were able to fill in with the John Mitchells and Terry Leaches of the world. Even then, the injuries cost them, but not enough that they weren’t still very much alive in late September.
The Card’s injuries weren’t as severe as the Mets were. Compare their injuries to ours, and you’ll see how much worse our injuires were.
Ike Davis 36 games
David Wright 102 games(and when he did play, he played with a broken back)
Daniel Murphy 109 games
Jose Reyes 126 games
Angel Pagan 123 games
Santana out for the year
Young made 4 starts
Niese missed the final month of the season
Paulino and Bay missed the start of the season
Bucholz missed most of the year
and Scott Hairston also missed the final month of the season
The Cards however had Pujols play 147, Berkman 145, Holiday 126, Molina played in 139, and Carpenter didn’t miss a start – The only devestating injury was Wainwright – Our injuries were much worse than their’s…..and if they had a another devestating injury, let’s say if Pujols played under 100 games for them due to injury, you think they would have made the playoffs? There’s no way they would have.
If only we got CJ Wilson last year, we would had been in the World Series!
I didn’t see any move on there that made any sense in terms of production that suddenly vaults the Mets into the playoffs. Now come on man, take deeeeeep breath in, and face that the team is building back up from the farm system.
Right here:
Takahashi: 4 per year
Chotae: 1.2 million per year
Harang:7 million
Millwood: minor league contract
Blanco: 1 million
I also showed their numbers for 2011 compared to the guys we really did sign to prove I was right that they would have made a difference. And I lised the pitchers in I liked the best in this order:
Harang
Vazquez
Correia
Penny
Young
Bedard
Capuano
Millwood
Oh and remember, this is how I felt before and during the offseason, not after.
I am still missing the one from 2010 showing you picked those exact players instead of cherry picking them from a list afterwards. Not only that, your list even if accurate assumes too much. It assumes that you could get Harang away from the West Coast.
I already told you that I don’t remember what post it was under, however you can ask t agee or Bayonne, and I’m more than sure they would tell you that I was saying the same thing there, that I said all offseason long.
And in that post, i went over the Harang, read my post to Donal.
Choate got a two year guarantee. Still a good opinion that you had but the Mets supposedly offered 1/1.5 Miami got him for 2/2.5.
Harang didn’t have any incentives in his contract and probably took less to play at home in SD while his wife was pregnant with their twins.
Correia got all 4 M guaranteed, no incentives.
Vazquez got 7M.
Millwood didn’t pitch until August.
Bedard signed about 3 weeks after Alderson got hired.
Vogelsong was never mentioned once by anyone.
Takahashi wanted more than 1 year and got 4 M.
Basically this is a list of guys who got way more money than Alderson had to work with or they got a 2 year guarantee or played where they wanted to or were coming off bad years or injuries.
Choate and Blanco imo were misses the rest were unobtainable for one reason or another as were guys like Saito and Dotel.
The real question to ask is how could a team, especially one who’s had the largest payroll over the last 25 years, best developed starting pitcher be Niese or Pelfrey and the best developed reliever be Aaron Heilman?
and another t agee post that winds up being nothing but a second guess. He mentions “the last 25 years” in every post too in addition to Scott Schoenweiss.
The subject has nothing to do the last 25 years. It has only to do with last year. You could not get a more unfair, more unobjective poster than this guy.
He uses a lot of words to say very little.
I don’t see how Harang or Vazquez kept their respective teams out of the cellar last year.
Mets had a much, much better offensive team than San Diego and FLA so just because they didn’t help their respective teams doesn’t mean they can’t help another team with a different roster. What you said makes no sense.
You couldn’t be more wrong in your assumptions, Bayonne. But that’s nothing new.
Let’s be realistic here. You think Amaro wouldn’t have wanted to sign Reyes as they’ve got a need and he was the best FA SS available? If money were no object, he would have done it in a hear beat. But even with a franchise that’s sat up top of the NL east for years, has a budget limit (unless you’re the Yankees).
Even if it’s one that’s just as simple as staying right under the luxury tax limit – and/or looking at the money he’s got tied up in Paps/Howard/Lee in a few years and knowing he needs to have some flexibility to IDK, say resign Hamels.
Either way, his decisions on signing a SS this year was most probably predicated on $$ first.
people who just offer blind criticism w/o offering any legitimate solutions should just keep their mouth shut
stop belaboring the obvious .. everyone knows that if we had better players we would have stayed in the race longer and made more money or maybe the fans should just support their team .. i mean isn’t that what real true die hard fans do .. support the team no matter what
not sandy’s fault either that the mets can’t keep these guys healthy .. no team in baseball has lost more games to injury to their top players like the mets have the last 3 years (reyes, beltran, wright, davis, santana, bay, murphy, niese, pagan)
do everyone a favor and take your hating attitude somewhere else
if you can’t accept the reality of the current situation going on with this organization and don’t have the guts to stick it out and still support your team than just go front run with some other organization that likes to spend, spend and spend some more
I disagree with your assessment that Alderson “did a terrible job and contributed to the Mets misery”.
In 2010 they won 79 games with Santana for all but 4 starts. Reyes played in 133 games, Wright bounced back and played in 157 games, Ike played 147, Beltran only 64, Bay was awful and got hurt, Murphy missed all of 2010. 79 Wins.
Fast forward to 2011 and they won 77 games. Santana didn’t pitch at all. He along would have won the other two games. Reyes played less games (126), Wright played only 102, Ike only 36, Murphy only 109. Bay still stunk.
Bottom line, if Alderson doesn’t bring in Capuano, Isringhausen, Byrdak, and if he doesn’t HAVE to trade K-Rod and Beltran…a case can be made that the 2011 team could have finished over .500.
Did all his moves work? Of course not. Carrasco, Harris and Paulino were disappointments. Hairston could have been better. Chris Young got hurt again. The fact remains that, before the trades, the team was on pace to be better overall last season than 2010.
IMHO your statement doesn’t hold water.
Also got rid of circus distractions of Ollie and Castillo. They had a very high payroll last year and that wasn’t room to sign much more, that was the reality. IMHO the team was more fun to watch than any squad since end of ’07.
Bayonne, see how much these guys have changed since last year? Last year Alderson was so great and smart, and was going to turn us around, but now that things aren’t going so well, “he was just hired to slash payroll” – Big change isn’t it?
I can understand not wanting to put all the blame on Alderson, but to say NONE of it is Alderson’s fault is ridiculous – They have all bases covered, if Alderson does good they’ll say “see, I told you so”, and if he does bad, “it’s the Wilpons fault”. No matter what the outcome is, it won’t be Alderson’s fault.
That’s how you know these guys are biased, no matter what happens, he’s never going to be viewed negatively.
exactly,
It has nothing to do with baseball anymore. Nothing. It has nothing to do with giving your own ideas as to what move you think the Mets can do in order to win – no matter what the budget is.
You hit the nail right on the head Vinny
Never being viewed negatively is as bad as always being viewed negatively. Why is it so hard to understand that the money is no there, it’s in every newspaper, blog, TV News station and has been for over a year.
Funny how the words “second guessing” comes up anytime someone mentions Omar, yet Alderson’s picks, while under an extreme budget are horrific (can we see that word 6 billion times more a day), because that’s not second guessing right? No, but it is a double standard.
Not everyone of Alderson’s picked were great, no way, but name me one GM that has had 100% success rate? Certainly not Omar, Phillips etc….
If you think Omar’s role plays no role in this either, you’re turning a blind eye.
I treat Alderson just like I treat Omar. When I think he makes a good move, i’ll say it, and when I think he makes a bad move, i’ll say it too – Like this year I thought Francisco and trading for Ramirez were good moves, and signing Rauch wasn’t a good one – So how am I always viewing him negatively I i said I liked two of his moves this year?
2nd guessing is criticizing something after the fact. What I’m saying isn’t 2nd guessing because I said the moves weren’t good as they were happening. So, it’s not a double standard because I’m not 2nd guessing, I’m saying the same thing now, as I was then.
Now with Omar, people are going back years later, and saying “we should have done this and that”, only NOW that they know outcome – What I was saying about Alderson, I didn’t know the outcome – That’s the difference…….and not only that, but one his teams seaon ended one game short of the WS, and two of his teams came one game short of the playoffs, so I think to put the blame all of the GM, is unfair, when you come that close – Omar wasn’t out there with a bat in the NLCS, or in the last week of the season in 07 – To blame those loses on him, is ridiculous.
Now, I’m not saying he didn’t make a lot of bad moves, but those were good teams from 06-08( I believe we had the best record in the NL during that time), so to blame him for those teams coming up short, and not the players on the field for not getting the job done, when they were good enough to get it done, is unfair.
that’s a hell of a lot of ifs. But yes, if everything possible went right last year they likely would have drawn more fans and lost more money. But the odds of the moves (in hindsight) they could have made instead making that much of a difference are still not good.
and remember, all of those guys that signed would have required more money (in some cases, like Garland or harang, a boatload more because they only want to play on the west coast).
and based on how everything went, the idea of them being able to spend an extra 5-10 mill last year looks like it never had a chance.
I know we differ on this point, but I am certain that if Sandy had an extra 10mill available he would have spent it on upgrades. I don’t think he went dumpster diving because it is what gives him a thrill.
The point is the team was not going to be turned around in 1 year. Had it been it would of been one of the most unexpected surprises of the season. What is being learned now that wasn’t as pronounced last year was the financial situation of the team being more grim than some originally anticipated. Last year for example I thought the Mets would still be able to go out in this off-season and have more financial resources available to them. That now appears not to be the case.
So yes that is definitely a concern going forward but does that change the original thought that the GM was going to be given time to implement his plans for the organization? No He still in my opinion has a total of 3 to 5 years at best before the chants for a new GM come from me.
I heard Todd Hollingsworth this morning say that at minimum GM’s should be given a 700 day grace period. I was curious why 700 but that basically gets you through the first year and through the next regular season. At that point if you don’t see a clear direction the team is aiming for then criticism of the GM is much more warranted. Sighting every small move as either grand or crap is missing the big picture and much of that information we are not even in the know.
You mean Todd Hollandsworth right? Cause I Googled Todd Hollingsworth and I have no idea who that is.
Isn’t that a type of sauce? Oh no wait I was thinking Hollandaise.
LOL, yeah… I guess it’s been too long since he played. Thanks.
He won’t be here 3 to 5 years. He’s going to be 65 and frankly doesn’t need to work for Jeffy. Once this whole thing implodes and the banks start calling in loans, the Wilpons will be gone and it will be the new owner left to figure it out with Alderson as some kind of consultant.
You can rebuild in New York if your owner is not named Wilpon.
Did you ever stop to wonder what misled you MNJ?
Was it the fact that the Mets financial situation took another hit since Sandy came over or is it really the fact that Sandy misled everyone to believe we were going to be a winning ballclub and all he needed was a year or two to get that done?
The ONLY way it could have been done on the timeline first put forth by Sandy was if he kept guys like Reyes and added to it by getting front line starter for the rotation.
Something he did not do and while he is using the financials as an excuse he would NEED an excuse if he had just said from the start “Hey this is going to take 5-10 years to fix so don’t expect miracles!
No he said he was committed to winning, but like his semantical out of WINTER regarding David Wright he did NOT in this case put a timeline to it so he has no deadline to meet and e have no time to look forward to or to have patience for!
It was hearing that ownership pushed back on the budget followed with the news on a $40M loan. Though I can understand why you would see it differently.
They took another loan yes…Is that because they lost more money than they expected? Hardly they estimated the 70 Mil number even before ST started.
Maybe they expected the Picard thing to be settled by now and/or dismissed.
Maybe they haven’t taken another hit and just want to keep some of their personal finances in escrow until the Picard thing is sorted out.
As for Ownership pushing back on budget…have they really? With an estimated 100-110 Mil payroll target they cleared that the second Beltran and K-Rod were sent away! Not sure on Beltran’s number but K-Rod was 13 Mil, Beltran was near 18 Mil plus the removal from the books of Perez and Castillo (another 20 Mil!)
Now we can say they pushed back to 100 Mil from 140 Mil but thats about it! Since 100 Mil is the current target according to Sandy!
Sandy is using the finances as an excuse (probably with the Wilpon blessing I bet) to do what he really WANTS to do, not what he is forced to do due to management intransigence.
Thats my belief and the fact they took a bridge loan doesn’t play much in there because it’s just a loan to hold until they sell the shares they are working on selling.
(I’ll comment on your other point under that post)
If that is what you want to believe I am fine with that. I just don’t agree.
I understand you feel Alderson is a liar but I simply don’t agree with with many of the reasons you say he is as you already know based on past discussions.
Maybe LIAR is too strong a word here…Propagandist maybe is the better word.
He is NOT realy saying what he means here. He says it flippantly and maybe because he REALLY BELIEVES you can K-Mart your way to the WS. I can’t say.
But his quotes ring dishonest or subterfuge to what is really going on by his actions!
Either he is lying (lets say fibbing) or sematically tailoring his statements to leave people with one impression while leaving himself enough wiggle room to do the opposite or as I said he REALLY thinks that this K-Mart plan is going to work in which case he is an idiot not a liar!
I have to ask you this though…
We talked about July and us compared to the cards…
You seem to think they were much better than us even before Beltran and K-Rod left.
Can you honestly say we are better than them now?
Can you even honestly say we are better than the team we had in July before K-Rod and Beltran left?
If not then what would lead you to believe that Sandy is taking us in the right direction?
Why wouldn’t you believe he has made us WORSE not better than we were?
For whatever reason you wish to identify that is the key thing we folks who are unhappy are saying!
I personally don’t care what philosophy Sandy uses provided the philosophy is making the team BETTER not worse!
And so far with the moves he has made this team is not even better than the 2010 team that got a manager and GM fired!
Tag talks about the last 10 years of failure yet but this was the 4th worst year we had during those 10 years!
Going back to the last 26 years it was the 9th worst year we have had over that time!
And it’s going in the wrong direction because we are likely to have an even worse year next year!
And THAT is why many here are not ready to swallow this sunshine that keeps getting blown up our butts, why we argue with those who think Sandy Passing wind is akin to smelling roses and any move he makes is a good day!
I aks them to name even ONE player Sandy has brought in that upgraded a position and no names ever get mentioned the question dutifully ignored!
If the plan is to suck and collect picks I would rather Sandy say it the way Huizenga said it when he did it and stop with the semantical propaganda he keeps using to keep the season ticket sales artificially high due to promised false hope!
It’s his dishonestly via prefacing statements with timelines and out clauses that makes me question his honesty!
Because his actions all seem to be about the ESCAPE CAUSE of the statement never the positive spin that preceeds the escape clause…
IE: We want to re-sign Jose it’s a priority, But we have Limits. The Limits win!
No we have no intention of trading David Wright this winter, Wonder what his intentions are after winter!
When he got here he said it would be exciting to GM a team with resources then all of a sudden there are no resources?
Maybe if he wasn’t so interested in saying a positive Ture o Not he would have said something more along the lines of we will take our time and see what we have and go from there!
THATS Honesty!
not this crap we have been getting.
I think that what you are forgetting is that it is an organization and not just a team. So while you say that Sandy has not improved the 25 man roster, you are correct. Is that all on Sandy? Of course not. To say he has not improved the organization, that is impossible to say at the moment and only time will tell.
We have been over many of these topics already Metsie. (Beltran, Krod, finances, time for rebuilding, direction of the team). I understand your point of view and if you want to believe what you do I am fine with that. It’s not like I am not trying to change your mind just expressing my point of view from time to time. In the end I just simply don’t agree as you no doubt know based on many of our past discussions.
Should read “It’s not like I am trying to change your mind” sorry.
TRS, I have discussed how the team was not going to be turned around in 1 season as far as I was concerned and how I was going to afford the GM the same amount of time I afforded the prior GM and how I didn’t expect this year to see the team’s financial situation appear to be as bleak as it looks. All in all this team while needing work I still believe they can be competitive next year or the year after. Others don’t and that is an easy position to take right now based on what you see but I can’t control what other people’s position are I can only stay true to what I believe.
Ok TRS I’ll Bite…Name the move that Sandy has made that could change that? Wheeler? What else?
Who RUNS the organization? Hint : Its the GM!
You can blame finances all you want but the truth is he isn’t NOT SPENDING money he is just spending it for 10 guys who won’t help us win instead of spending it on one guy who would! If he had spent more wisely last year on the pen he might not need to re build it in consecutive years!
MNJ – I know you are not trying to change my mind and I’m not really trying to change yours either. We respect each other’s opinions, just pointing out that while we disagree My side has a bit more empirical evidence on which direction we are going and the other side is basically going on hope.
I have no issues with people accepting what is going on only with those who try to make it out to be such a great thing!
So far it is worse than it was with only HOPE that it might be better.
I just won’t say it’s better until it actually is!
And will say it’s worse until such time that it is NOT worse than the year before!
I just won’t give it as much credit if the only reason why it gets better than the year before is because we went out of our way to make it so bad that there was no way to go BUT up!
Which is basically where I see us heading right now!
If we only win 59 games next year followed by a 65 win season I really won’t be giving Sandy much credit for turning the team around. at least not until he gets this team above 79 wins which is where it was when he started!
Until he wins more than the guy who got fired I refuse to say he is improving a damn thing but the Wilpon’s wallet!
How do we know about the worth of any of the players he has drafted or traded for yet?
“How do we know about the worth of any of the players he has drafted or traded for yet?”
Precisely! How can you go on about what a wonderful job he is doing and what great moves he has made (as Jessup and you have done) when you have no clue how any of these things will pan out?
I guess you believe every move is great until proven otherwise!
All I have said is Sandy isn’t getting value!
Three All Stars gone and the net return so far is:
1 Starting Pitcher (Wheeler)
2 PTBNL RPs (for K-Rod)
2 2nd round picks for Reyes!
Those deals may very well be steals…Just not for the Mets!
And if anyone signs K-Rod they will likely get a better pick than we will get for Reyes!
But Sandy is doing all the right things according to you and Jessup!
“just pointing out that while we disagree My side has a bit more empirical evidence on which direction we are going and the other side is basically going on hope.”
The point is in how you view what you call “empirical evidence”. You see it one way while I see it another. You want to believe that there is “empirical evidence” the team is going in the wrong direction? That’s OK. I see moves that when looked individually I can see the logic/reasoning behind them. Does that mean they are going in the right direction? That is the big question. Anyone can see the short term of it but I am allowing time to see what indeed happens in the next 2 to 4 seasons. In the end they may be bad moves I can’t see down the road like some others can but I can look at the moves as they happen and decide if I agree with the reasoning behind them and so far taking everything into account I find I agree with the reasoning behind many of the moves so far.
Metsie, go back and find some post where I have praised every move Sandy has made. Don’t just lump posters together because you agree with neither.
The point is in how you view what you call….
Do the DEEP STATISTICAL ANALYSIS that is suppposedly being done cause if you look at the stats of what they gte compared to what they give you see that stats are getting worse not better!
My Evidence is statistical…
“My Evidence is statistical…”
Fair enough your well within your right to look at it as you wish.
Maybe I see things differently than most. But I find it difficult to understand why so many cant grasp the concept of spending a little more up front, to increase your revenue stream and margins at the end.
If the Mets had spent another $5-8 million last offseason, it may have translated into attendance figures of closer to 35,000 per game instead of 18,000 per game in August and September. It would have kept the Mets relevant throughout the season instead of petering out in July. That would have translated into 25-30 million more in revenue and instead of losing $70 million in 2011 they would have lost $40 million instead. why dont people see that?
Because it is a pipe dream?
Because you can’t spend what you don’t have and what would have happen if you had spent that money and attendance and play still sucked?
Key word: MAY.
and as noted, you can’t spend if you don’t got.
and it is really hard to envision another 5-8 being enough to make that kind of diffreence.
That sounds like a defeatist attitude to me. Alderson said he held back that much for in season moves, his words not mine. He should have invested it and refused to even to help compensate for loss of Krod in the bullpen which I was glad to see he took the blame for last week.
and Maniac & Vinny,
It looks like the money was there to spend a little more to make more like Maniac planned out.
Out of nowhere there was cash to sign their draft picks right? And building the new wall so who knows how much more they could have spent last off season? 3 million? 7 million more?
So more and more it looks like Sandy showed very bad judgement and lousy talent evaluation to begin with. But these apologists here refuse to accept it. They absolutely refuse to accept it and like I said, it’s not about baseball anymore it’s more about defending a GM and their own particular beliefs. The Mets as a team are second to those beliefs
The walls are a distraction. Mets players are effected by it, the money spent makes sense. What that construction does is makes a negative subject go away.
So by mid season maybe the team had an extra 10m to spend. At .500 record in July with a broken Reyes and about 7 teams behind in the wild card standings, do you think it makes more sense to use the funds on the current club or use them to get players above slot for the first time in forever in the draft. Now don;t get into a Nimmo rant it’s not about that. It’s about the decision of taking the current available resources and where to apply them. Alderson chose the draft and for the long term direction of the team it was a better move.
Also since the team lost 70m by the end of the season, I am sure they knew how much they were losing while they were going along. Why do you think Alderson is the one that didn’t add payroll and not believe that Freddy said you can’t add anymore?
I’m not talking about the reason the money was spent, I’m saying it looks like there WAS more money to spend on the roster to help make them more competitive and more relevant into the season
Did you even read what I said before you posted. The Mets spent money, just doesn’t look like in the places you wanted it spent.
I read what you said, you’re not reading what i’m saying
That money that suddenly popped up for signing draft picks and building the wall was always there and should have been used to improve the roster more because he inherited a very good roster – better than what Phillips & Minaya inherited.
It would have given the team a better chance at being relevant longer and he would have wound up having the money anyway to sign his draft picks and build a wall. But like i’ve said a hundred times i think Alderson held back because he felt the team he inherited had no chance, he played it close to the vest and it looks like things took a turn for even the worse because of his decisions making.
STOP DEFENDING THE GUY AND START DEFENDING THE METS AS A TEAM!
I Wrote this
The Mets spent money, just doesn’t look like in the places you wanted it spent.
So I think I read what you said, you are just not happy with the direction in which the money was spent. OK lets breath. I am fine with that disagreement. I just don’t agree that Alderson inherited some team that was trending up. The farm was depleted and there were very little financial resources to spend on the current roster. I am glad he is focusing on the foundation. Doesn’t mean I want to suck his ****, I am happy with that direction. There are just too many whole to fill and he chose a direction that most of us fans are not used to.
Forgot what year Phillips came in off the top of my head but I don’t think he had much to work with but Minaya absolutely did. Wright and Reyes ready to go gangbusters and a checkbook with lots of money to spend. Way different scenario than what Sandy is dealing with year one.
The farm was and is not depleted also so let’s knock it off! The products of the farm is 1) what helped keep the team afloat in 2011 and could have actually helped keep them relevant into September if Ike Davis didn’t get hurt! And virtually all of the prospects that are mentioned here on a daily basis are Omar’s so KNOCK IT OFF!
You’re just defending the guy at all cost that’s what you’re doing.
The Mets as the team you rooted for growing up..it’s not about that anymore.
Yes I know Alderson inherited one of the worst rated farm systems by any scout. Some of the players are proving useful but I doubt we would of seen a lot of those guys if Alderson was ginev more money to spend on the roster.
Did he make the farm better? We don’t know yet. He traded for the #1 rated guy now in Wheeler and who the hell knows about Nimmo, I believe that was a risky move and I probably wouldn’t of done it.
So I don’t think I am defending him at all. I just think that if anyone has a difference in opinion from you, you just call them a Alderson fanboy. It’s just a easy way out for someone that is delusional and can’t form a educated response.
oh just because i don’t lay down and accept every move Sandy makes as gospel it makes me delusional? Maybe his terrible off season last year cost the Mets more than we can imagine. You just don’t know that and anybody who questions it is delusional?
And if I recall correctly Alderson himself called the Mets farm system more a middle of the pack during his initial press conference. And I don’t think that’s relevant to what he could have done to help keep the team relevant longer last year. And you also have no proof that maybe Alderson himself didn’t believe the team could contend so maybe that’s why he gave last off season just a half-hearted attempt that ultimately wound up contributing to some of that 70 million that was lost.
The decisions are coming from the top my friend. We don’t know what Sandy is being allowed to do. It’s been a pleasure and I’ll have a beer tonight in your honor.
Bayonne, the sad part is that you cant have a normal debate about baseball because guys like jessep would defend Alderson at all costs. It’s like they are not even Mets fans, they are now Alderson fans. How can you discuss baseball with them when their allegiance keeps them from being objective?
how is it different than trying to have a conversation with someone fixated on nothing but how awful the GM is?
Exactly Maniac,
Even this guy saltygary. It is simply UNBELIEVABLE the depths these people go to defend Alderson. It’s horrible.
It NEVER used to be like that it was always about baseball and what we can talk about to make the Mets better each season.
It’s become a disgrace and if things get worse & worse these people deserve exactly what’s coming to them/
and Jessep does not support Alderson no matter what at all costs.
well any.
maybe just FOR ONCE somebody other than the few of us here who like to win will finally take Alderson to task for his job as an evaluator because right now most of the moves he’s been making outside of the pagan/ramirez trade have been AWFUL. So far his best acquisition has been Chris Capuano.
CHRIS CAPUANO IS THE BEST THIS GUY CAN DO SO FAR???
Give me a break man. That’s why we’re always bringing up the job he’s doing because nobody else DARE criticizes the man.
Oh – make no mistake. It’s not about the Mets anymore, you’re right about that
I don’t think I am defending Alderson at all, I’m just not taking a shit on him like you are. Trust me I wish I can be talking about new player acquisitions, but the Wilpon’s screwed the pooch and it’s just not possible right now. I have anger about the situation it’s just focused on other elements.
He’s not getting guys like Capuano because he thinks that’s the best recipe for success he’s getting those kind of guys because Freddy and Jeffy are saying they want to keep their empire and you can only spend $20 on half a roster.
and maybe i stop ‘taking a shlt” on the guy like you so aptly put it if he did a better job.
But you’re convinced what he did was the best that could have been done. You ARE defending him.
Here you want a attack from me on Alderson, it was a poor decision to not trade Reyes last year. Before or after injury. Reyes was never coming back and the organization knew they couldn’t afford him anyway. But they were too afraid of pissing off paying customers. They made the tough decision during the off-season but the decision should of been made a lot earlier.
what decisions are coming from the top? What players to get?
You’re saying the Wilpons are telling Sandy don’t spend that extra 3-7 million on talent for the roster but save it and spend it on the draft, the walls, etc.? That’s what you’re saying? Sounds like you already started drinking that beer.
Now if that’s not excuse making for Alderson than I don’t know what is
I did not say that. The decisions of how much to spend comes from Wilpon, where to spend is Alderson. If you took the time to read my comments before formulating a response, you would of read 3 different times that I understand you and I disagree where the pennies should of been spent.
Then you are going to type “Ah Ha so you are a Alderson fanboy”, to which my reply will be “for all the energy you keep wasting on telling people to focus on the product on the field you are the one most obsessed with Alderson”
See I just saved us some time. Save your breath for another day. Cheers! Drinking a nice Dales Pale Ale from Oskar Blues Brewery just for you.
Oh Maniac – the exact same could be said for the other camp, the difference is, the debate comes with pure vial hatred, personal insults, name calling etc…..you know it, everyone knows it. That’s not a debate.
If you think that the money for the walls comes from the PLAYERS PAYROLL BUDGET, you are an even bigger moron than I thought you were.
well than that means the money was there all the time. So if you think your team can contend and you have to spend a little more to make a move you think can help them compete for the postseason than you damn well better dip into that budget.
So you’re telling me that Sandy had money budgeted for the walls back in November 2010? I think not.
Take a hike
they lost 70 million dollars last year, with “drawing card” Jose in the lineup. the big joke is this drawing card stuff. winning is the only drawing card. once again, we don;t know what kind of money was available last year. saying the moves couls have been better is just guesswork. no GM wants to lose.
Agreed.
Thanks, Joe. All I know is that I’m sick of “winning the off season” every year. We’ve done that a number of times in the last 25 years. One thing we haven’t done in that time frame is win the post season. In fact way more often than not we’re no where close to even making the post season.
How can a team with the largest payroll in the entire League only qualify for the post season 4 times in 25 years? How is that even possible?
A team like Tampa has no margin of error but a team like the Mets have a huge margin of error and still can’t make it to the post season.
Our BEST years include years in which we failed to win even 90 games and missed out on the playoffs by one game. Winning 90 games is only winning 56% of your games. That’s not an incredibly high benchmark to begin with is it? 56%? Well it’s a little harder when the teams in your division are strong after all half the schedule is against those 4 teams but until now that really hasn’t been the case. Washington was the dregs, Miami up here and there but overall mediocre, sometimes well below. The Braves had a 5 year regroup after 14 straight post seasons and the Phills really only good in 2007-2011 so how could we, with the largest payroll in the League not do better than 4 playoff appearances in 25 years?
Why must we rely on “winning the off season” just to have a chance to compete for a playoff berth? It sounds very simplistic to say but having the best players, when their at their best and having them all at the same time has got to give you the best chance of winning every year. If your farm develops just 2 great players and you sign 8 past their prime free agents it stands to reason your window of opportunity is going to be very small. If on the other hand your farm system develops 8 great players and you sign two expensive older pieces you can keep it going a lot longer and your far more insulated if one of those guys turned out to be Adam Dunn, Chone Figgins, Carlos Silva or John Lackey.
People are fond of talking about how even the backups got hurt in 2009 but who were the backups/emergency call ups in the mid 80′s? Bullpen had Myers and Aguilera. Rotation had Cone (trade for a prospect) 1B Magadan, 2B was a platoon, SS Elster 3B Johnson (trade for a prospect), LF Mitchell, CF Dykstra, RF Heep. That’s a pretty team to roll out there if need be let alone to back up plus the guys they were backing up weren’t on average ancient either.
Regardless of why we’re forced to develop most of our own players it will only serve us well in the long run and instead of spending the entire off season talking about who we could or should get for 8-12 spots on the 40 we’ll be discussing who’s job might be at stake if the guy behind him really shows something in ST.
That’s when you’ve got a team. Not when your constantly talking about guys you could have gotten especially when those guys you could have gotten were also available in the draft 5-10 years beforehand but you were too busy rifling through the Tim Reddings, Alex Cora’s, Frank Catalonotto’s, Mike Jacobs’, Brian Schneider’s, Mo Vaughns, Kevin Appier’s and Moises Alou’s and Vince Coleman’s to notice.
uh huh sure..you’re just still bitter that:
- Beltran/Valentin didn’t get a hit w/bases loaded
- Mets folded in 2008. They blew it, face it.
- Mets folded in 2007. They blew if, face it
- Kenny Rogers thew a ball 4 in 1999
- Timo Perez had a baserunning lapse in 2000
- Bentiez blew a save in 2000
- Franco blew a crucial save in 1990 and Mets got swept in crucial series in September
- Mike Scoscia hit a HR off Doc Gooden in 88
- Terry Pendleton hit a HR off Roger McDowell in 87
And on and on and on. They had their chances buddy so stop SECOND GUESSING and stop WHINING and get over it. They had their chances fair and square
Excellent post Bayonne…. I don’t underatand why mr tagee doesn’t commit basebal hari cari. He sounds like the world’s most depressing person, even more dreary than his lord and mast sandy. Maybe he is lord sandy. since his lordship is now the financial spokesman for fred/saul and buddy he has little to dowith baseball. being a gm who made such putrid moves that he destroyed attendance and TV ratings in only one year will do that to a lordship.
Right we’re the only one’s who’ve lost close games and we’re the only one’s who’ve ever suffered any injuries.
I wouldn’t believe that your level of stupidity existed if I didn’t see it for myself.
For the Mets particular circumstance..and that’s ALL i’m talking about TAKE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY!
They had their chances, plenty of times in their history and they LOST FAIR & SQUARE
boy, do u spend every second of your real life blaming others for where you stand now?
I think you do.
Why don’t you not only take a hike but take a long walk on a short pier
Oh okay because the Mets have solid teams in the 80s they should have had better backups in 2009…..even though the starters, the backups, AND the backups for the backups got hurt…AND the pitching
Take a hike
It’s truly a shame how much the schools failed you. Obviously, logic just isn’t your strength.
Great take on the Mets! We are going to have alot of pain the next two years but 2014it should be the year we turn the corner.
Keep stocking the farm!
that’s the beauty of baseball. You never know for sure.
maybe in 2012 Johan comes back and is reasonably effective, Pelf pitches like 2010, neise takes the leap, the pen is a strength, and Wright and Davis duke it out for MVP, with Duda hitting 40 bombs behind them.
doesn’t take much more than that to suddenly make them a WC contender.
Not saying it will, but the pieces are in place that it can happen with a couple of career years and a whole lot of health for a change.
Johan will not be back in 2012 and for Pelf, 2010 will be his WHIP.
any… you left out some other very possible maybes. maybe all the catchers will combine for a johnny bench tyear and maybe Tejada will steal 35-50 bases, and maybe murphy will learn to play the field and maybe parnell will learn to be a pitcher and maybe maybe and maybe… but the best maybe of all is maybe fred will soehow be forced to sell the team and met fans who aren’t blind followers of the buddy brigade will be able to hope that someday soon the New York Mets will no longer be the laughingstock of baseball.
Solid post T.
Thanks NJ
Any – this is for you my reply button wasnt working.
I’ve been just as critical of Omar as I am of Alderson. I couldn’t wait to see Omar go. What’s going on now is some whacked out undying loyalty for a GM who hasn’t won in over a decade and posted losing seasons in the last 6-7 years.
Why is it?
I’ll telly you why, it’s only because he’s the darling of the Moneyball crowd. Well guess what, I’m not a part of that fringe so I can be more objective. You have Moneyball writers on this site that post nothing but pro-Alderson blogs with no objectivity and defending every move as if there is only one side to the debate, their side.
How can you debate with closed minded drones like that?
If you dont believe me just read what they post and either tell me I’m wrong or right about their my way or the highway defense of this GM.
WTF????? The reply buttons are not working!
SaltyGary, I dont know you from a hole in the wall, but I must commend you for what you said about Alderson trading Reyes. It’s nice to have a debate on philosophy with someone who at least is open minded about things and doesn’t swear everything Alderson does is right.
Yeah. +1.
Thanks… It seems like many of you here are really obsessed with whether someone is in Alderson’s camp or not right now. I just think he hasn’t made enough decisions to warrant that kind of conversation yet. There is a lot of work to do with this team, as upset at the state the team is in, if feel it is going in a direction that is successful based on the current budgetary constraints. Which means positive change is going to happen at a slower pace,
1. you can win without much money. this has been proven.
2. the mets will have money again in a few years. they are a big market team with a tv network.
I think Sandy is handcuffed for what GM in his right mind would get rid of his star closer and best hitter with the team just five games out in the loss column for the wild card berth after the all-star break? Who would have acquired a bunch of retreads and damaged goods like Capuano, Young and Carasco to fill major roles on the pitching staff and not try to re-sign proven commodities like Feliciano (nobody knew he was going to be injured) and Takahashi?
Too many embraced these moves in their zeal to usher in a new era of sabremetrics and that has fallen flat on their faces. Sandy never accomplished any success with Oakland using computer analysis based on economics and ability – when he turned to those methods after being forced to by new owners, Oakland was constantly a below .500 club (does that seem familiar?).
Just like I think he is unfairly taking the hits for his owners, I also believe he was unfairly made to appear as the poster boy for fans of money ball. As Sandy said yesterday, one has to look at the value of the player in relation to how he would help the team and if that means signing more expensive players, so be it.
Again, I cannot believe that Sandy wanted to make the moves he did last summer along with not obtaining better than he did over the winter. Teams can be competitive and build for the future at the same time while being fiscally prudent. His track record building Oakland into a winner using decent resources (instead of just buying all the best players available like the Yankees, Phillies and BoSox) shows he knows his stuff. His track record with the Mets on the major league level is awful because he is being forced into being a bean counter instead of a G.M. Wasn’t that the same story for Branch Rickey who was the G.M. for both the Brooklyn Dodgers and those awful Pittsburgh teams?
I hate to think he really liked making those moves instead.
P.S.
I am not the same Joe D. who is the author of this and so many other articles LOL.
It’s a fine plan provided your willing to wait the 10 years it takes to work!
Every team that has ever done it from within has spent about 8-10 years in the cellar, collecting many high draft positions year after year because they were awful, and the few guys they did find that proved to be good BEFORE they were ready to win were shipped off for more kids.
And all of them finished off by going after and either signing or bringing in Vets to finish the team.
If people are ready to wait another 10 years for a WS title be my guest!
But don’t expect Sandy Alderson to be here when that happens!
Don’t expect anyone from the current front office to be here either!
The current group is playing the role of M Donald Grant!
And they will get run out of time in two or three years and we had better hope we find the next Cashen!
But these guys are not making us better they are just making it easy for someone else to improve the team and look smart because anyone with a modicum of success is going away! and what replaces them is short term bandaids with bad glue that will not stiock or ever be part of the long term goodness they expect we are bringing here!
I am in total agreement with this posting and wish that other fans could accept the truth about what has happened to this team. The blame has to be taken by ownership and not just because of the financial problems. For may years now, the philosophy of this organization has been to try for the quick fix. It rarely works because you end up depending on one or two “acquisitions” to get you to the promised land. This is a team game…you win with the best 25 players and then a few others who are called up to fill in on occasion. If pitching is considered 70 percent of the game, you can’t be a consistent winner when you have a starting staff of mediocre guys at best. Injured position players can be replaced on a short term basis with little consequence but 5 starters who combine for 12- 15 excellent starts a year will not get you anywhere but 4th place at best. Seaver, Koosman, Gentry, Cardwell, McAndrew and Ryan in 69 were a real quality staff. Gooden, Darling, Ojeda, Fernandez and Aguilera combined for over 140 starts in 1986. That was a staff. No doubt losing an ace like Santana hurts big time but for far too long, the Mets have not had a good pitching staff with far too may mediocre guys…..Rebuilding begins with young, live arms who are groomed in the minors to become solid if not stud starting pitchers that will give a team 175- 200 innings. If you don’t have the cash to sign free agent studs or the talent to trade for them like the Phillies have done in recent years then you gotta grow em yourself.
Wake up people…Sandy was brought here to clean up the mess but it is gonna take some times. Knowing that the team can’t be serious contenders for a few years is not so bad if the fans realized that the direction has changed. No GM is going to come out and admit that there is no way that his team is going to be competitive. They have to be positive in front of the media especially in NY.
Accept the truth and show your displeasure for what has happened by supporting the new regime and show some patience. In the meantime, ownership will probably continue to make concessions to the fans with ticket price reductions and give-away days to put some fans in those empty seats that will no doubt be there for a while.
Nice rational non-biased post. Prepare to be attacked.
Alan,
The team Sandy inherited last year was absolutely competitive and wiser decision should have been made to keep them competitive. And listening to the things Sandy is saying now kind of clears the air a bit of what his thinking was during last year (and now) and this is he never intended to compete in the first place.
Or I can be like you and so many other good soldiers and not question anything this GM does.
Rarely works unless your the Phillies, Yankees or Red Sox.
Or the Mets in 2006!