The Mets’ Great Depression Era

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• Squidoo December 12, 2011 at 2:11 pm

  Outstanding post!
• srt December 12, 2011 at 2:12 pm

  Well I applaud your courage with this one, Craig.

  I agree for the most part. I’ve followed through the original Great Depression Era of the /late 70s and very early 80s teams and I’ll be following through this one.

  The difference before was M. Donald Grant was a cheap SOB – even though it wasn’t his money. He especially hated free agency. Good thing he was fired after ’78 but it still took 5 years to build a good farm system and contending team.

  This time the Wilpons spent and spent, but obviously not wisely. Part of that was who they gave it to, to spend. I believe Omar had a very good plan when he first got here but somewhere along 2006 he deviated from it. Listened to one too many fans in the Bagel Shop, I think.

  Here’s hoping after 2012, we’ll be climbing back on the upside.
• NJstuckinTX December 12, 2011 at 2:16 pm

  Good read, but I must say that there are plenty of other teams that had draft busts.
• Ghost of omar December 12, 2011 at 2:25 pm

  Change means getting rid of the financially and morally corrupt ownership. Since all the adoreres of lord sandy never say change starts at the top[, you are the one’s that like this organization the way it is. Bad guy on top same old crap endlessly. But knock us for wanting freddy jeffy and saul out.
  • Donal December 12, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    And all you have to do to believe that is to ignore pretty much everything said by everyone around here about the Wilpons.

    But, the truth was always just an inconvenient detail for you.
  • Des December 12, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    Fred’s judgement will be based on legal issues and he’s had 75% or so of the Picard the Piker’s case against him dismissed already. There’s still $300 million being contested. Morally corrupt? No confirmed evidence for that yet — only your speculation and claim. BTW, Fred has already given more to charity than most of us will ever make.

    I’m looking at the verifiable facts, not some wild claims.
    • Mets2012 December 12, 2011 at 3:52 pm

      Madoff gave more to charity than Wilpons which paints
      the real picture. Get real.
      • Des December 12, 2011 at 5:35 pm

        Mets2012 — Most of us are aware that Madoff made charitable contributions from his ill-begotten deeds. That was morally corrupt money. But none of us can conclude that the Wilpon’s made their contributions with illegal profits. That’s at the essence of the Wilpon vs. Picard case and the point I was making. The jury is still out on this. Stay tuned.
  • Kay December 12, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    More fabrication, quite the opposite has been said by many, but don’t let the truth hit you over the head of reality.
• kevin December 12, 2011 at 2:26 pm

  This GM hasn’t led any team into the light in over ten years. We picked the wrong guy to lead us. Too bad we didn’t get Towers or Daniels.
  • Donal December 12, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Like you even heard of Daniels before October 2010.
    • jdon December 12, 2011 at 3:48 pm

      Sandy would not have taken a job with an organization like this if the commish had not asked him. A really bad Madoff ruling and this team might be working for Selig.
• Satish Ram December 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm

  “What is it about the last ten years of Mets baseball that makes so many Met fans resistant to change it?

  What is so extraordinary about the last decade that make so many reluctant to let it go?”

  Well, that one is easy. I feel like for the first time in 10 years or so, the franchise doesn’t care about competing and their primary goal is to “rebuild” , or in other words, cut the damn payroll. You could never say that cutting payroll was the primary goal in the past few years.

  It is possible to rebuild and compete at the same time, but the Wilpons aren’t willing to spend at this time. So be it.

  ““I don’t know what FIP or VORP is, but it sounds evil so I’m going to fight it to the death.”

  That’s it, isn’t it?”

  Oh, that’s nice. Fielding Independent Pitching and Value over Replacement Player? I figure Wins above Replacement works better, but look. I know what most sabermetric stats are and how they work. But thanks for implying that I don’t like sabermetrics because I don’t understand them. That’s an assumption.

  “It’s unfortunate that many fans would rather endure ten more years of failure before accepting a modernized, forward-thinking front office who only wan’t to ensure that the next 50 years will be far greter than the first 50 years.”

  Alderson won’t be here past 2015. He could even be gone before that to work for the MLB itself. So 50 years is a little much…you know, just like “Just a bittttt outside.”

  “And with the picks he did keep; used them on the likes of Kevin Mulvey, Eddie Kunz, Nathan Vineyard, Steven Matz and yes, Mike Pelfrey. You want more of that?”

  A – I could’ve sworn somebody was going around telling me the GM has nothing to do with draft picks, so, whoever it was, please back me up here or clarify. B – if you want to hold that against him, why not give him credit for:

  Niese, Thole, Parnell, Stinson, Duda, Gee, Davis, Havens, Kirk, Gorski.

  I’m not fond of the Hoover/Roosevelt comparison either, but hey, that’s a matter of personal opinion.

  I don’t know if Omar hurt you personally or something but it seems you’ve got something against him.You act as if we didn’t make the playoffs in 2006 and then come ridiculously close in 2007 and 2008. You act as if Omar can be held accountable for the injuries.

  You can’t win only by re-building alone and focusing only on home-grown players, and you can’t win only by spending money on free agents alone – true enough.

  I look forward to 2014 or sometime around then because maybe we’ll see the willingness to open the wallet again and a good amount of young players populating the team. The balance might lead to success.

  Also, just for fun, don’t we have endure these “years of failure” for your amazing Alderson’s plan to work anyway?

  I guess I’m just bothered by the tone of this piece making it seem like you know much better than I – that you can guarantee me success from these young prospects coming up in the system and that I’m in fear of progressing to the “future”, your sabermetric viewpoints.
  • Donal December 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Actually, no you can’t rebuild and compete at the same time. The fact that you can’t compete and are unable to fill in your holes are why you rebuild.

    Gene Michael had to rebuild with the Yankees. Dan Duquette rebuilt with the Red Sox. John Daniels built the Rangers.

    The thing is, in order to build your minors and compete at the major league level at the same time, you need to do one well and keep doing that while working on the other. the Mets could do neither well.
    • Satish Ram December 12, 2011 at 2:53 pm

      Omar may have given up a draft pick or so unnecessarily, but it’s not as if he completely ignored the draft.

      I think he played with the team in front of him. If Reyes was re-signed, Reyes/Wright/Santana might fall into decline just as Davis is becoming a star, Flores is becoming ready, Niese is blossoming, you know? I think the way the front office is deciding to handle this now is just making it seem like he did an even worse job than he actually did.
      • Donal December 12, 2011 at 3:06 pm

        Ignored is probably the wrong word. And I can concede that his lousy drafts aren’t really his fault if Wilpon was being Selig’s lapdog with slotting guides. Of course, drafting 22 year old relief pitchers doesn’t help his case.

        But the other thing is, we’re in love with Niese and Duda and guys like that because they are our guys and we want the best from them.

        Davis is the one legit star he drafted and has made it to the majors so far. That is seven years since he took the job. He could have had Martinez or Pelf, but they were rushed and never had a chance to develop.

        Ad look at Flores and all the hitters down there. they all play the same position. Hitters with lead gloves. Havens is probably the one guy who can field his position. There’s only so many guys you can stick and first base.
        • Satish Ram December 12, 2011 at 3:21 pm

          Oh yeah, Niese and Duda definitely have more value to us than anyone else. Murphy as well. But other teams are at least interested right? (Or so the rumor mill says…)

          But in any case, this season should be interesting. A full season for Duda and another year ahead for Niese. This is sort of a no pressure season. Low expectations again. So it is possible that they both show improvement. I expect a big year from Davis too.

          The other guys down there – I wouldn’t give up on any of them just yet, and I think there’s still a few players I haven’t even mentioned that have been added to the system under Omar’s regime, the international market free agents, I mean.

          I think in a good few years, we’ll really see the impact of the Minaya regime when we see where all those kids end up. I expect a good few to succeed. I got my eyes on Gorski specifically now, too.
          • jdon December 12, 2011 at 3:50 pm

            we have been seing that impact for several years already.
          • Donal December 12, 2011 at 4:34 pm

            So, all we had to do was wait 10 years from the day he was hired to see some early progress?

            And Gorski is a completely different pitcher than when he was drafted.
    • Hank December 12, 2011 at 5:51 pm

      That’s my biggest complaint right now. Too many people are buying into the whole you can’t rebuild and compete at the same time. That is completely bogus. In order for the Mets to get where we would all like them to be…winning on a consistent basis, they have to build and complain at the same time. The only reason you can’t build and compete at the same time is because you falsely believe they are mutually exclusive…so you reside in one extreme (spend and not build) or the other (build and not spend).

      Omar gets too much blame for spending and not building. And Sandy gets too much blame for building and not spending. To be honest if the Mets had owners who believed the two weren’t mutually exclusive…they could build and spend. Now obviously people complain that the team is too hamstrung by contracts, that’s not entirely true. The 2012 Mets have two bad contracts (Bay and Santana), but that is it. The puts them in a better position than most teams in the MLB. Especially when you add in that no one’s guaranteed a deal come 2014.

      The Minors will develop not because Omar ignored it, but because his draft strategy didn’t work AND because his philosophy (spending on young international free agents with upside as opposed the MLB Draft eligible players with upside) wasn’t effective. It also doesn’t help that the team owners refused to spend on the draft.

      If the Mets want to be consistently competitive they have to build and spend to compete. Don’t buy everything you hear…it’s definitely possible. If the Mets only intend on spending, it won’t work. If they only want to build…that won’t work either. You have to do both.
      • any December 12, 2011 at 6:02 pm

        It is possible, but you still need to have the money to spend.
        • francis December 12, 2011 at 6:37 pm

          and some pitching.
        • Hank December 12, 2011 at 7:12 pm

          And there lies the rub. The Mets claim they lost $70MM this year because of the drop in attendance; for them, that explains the drop in attendance. Problem is, most teams (especially in big markets) rely on both ticket revenue and money from TV Rights. I posed this quandary to several Mets bloggers, including bloggers on this site, and only one responded by telling me that the Mets get approximately $60-70MM from SNY.

          Here’s my problem with that. The Angels just signed a 20 year TV Rights deal worth at least $150MM a year. aid blogger responded, well the Wilpons own SNY, so they cut out the middle man. To me that’s a good thing because if the Angels are using a middle man and getting $150MM a year, how come we don’t have a middle man and are only getting $60-70MM a year.

          If you can’t follow all the numbers, just know this, someone’s lying. If the Mets are only getting $60-70MM for their TV Rights deal in the NYC market, they’re being grossly paid below market value. And…if you include that figure in the $70MM loss Sandy claims…then the team is operating $120-130MM in the red…that is awful, and very hard to believe.

          Lastly, if the Wilpons are cutting out the middle man, and only paying out $60-70MM a year in TV Rights, they’re screwing the Mets more than is being reported and more than most casual fans realize. The problem isn’t that the Mets don’t have access to money…the problem is their owners won’t pay them what a TV Rights deal should garner because they like complaining to us that the Mets are losing money, while padding their checkbooks with SNY profits.

          And speaking of building while spending. Please tell me this team isn’t better if the payroll is projected to remain at $120MM, especially with all the money the freed up this year (Beltran, Reyes, Ollie, Castillo, K-Rod) and all the money they will free up in the next two years (Santana, Bay, Wright) as the kids develop.
• Edwin December 12, 2011 at 3:14 pm

  Mets – Forget about them! Focus on on the Brooklyn Cyclones! More value for your dollar in more ways than one.
• jdon December 12, 2011 at 3:50 pm

  good post
• Russell Zanca December 12, 2011 at 4:50 pm

  Good post, Craig. I am almost completely with you. The one thing I wish I knew was the motive behind Alderson’s actions. I suppose that if it were the case that he was known to be a person who really gave a damn for the Mets, then we all could live with his mistakes–whatever they turn out to be. At the end of the day, I want to see the Mets play great baseball, play as a team, and WIN IT ALL!

  For Mets fans like me, the answer to your question about acceptance of mediocrity doesn’t extend back ten years, but simply to 2005. That was the year we showed something with people like Wright, Reyes, and Beltran. In 2006, we looked and felt phenomenal. And we were right there in ’07 and ’08. We are forever trying to avenge ’06, and we think we have to do it with the guys who got us to Game 7 of the 2006 ALCS and nobody else.

  As much as many of us screamed, “Blow it all up!” after the ’08 season, I think many of us us always felt the “core” wasn’t the problem, it was the tinkering with the supporting cast. This is why it seemed as if we would simply implode if Reyes, Wright, or Beltran ever left.

  Now only Wright remains, and we have no superstars. If you have only one, you live with some kind of hope. When Reyes was traded, I knew we were saying good-bye to one of the greatest Mets of all time, but I am willing to accept change, admit that the Alderson era is fully in place and see what kind of team my Mets are in two-three years.

  The only constant people…change.
• theonlymaskman December 13, 2011 at 8:49 am

  Wow, this article is all hooey! SA was blind-sided by ownership and had no idea the financials were that bad. Wrong, SA was brought in on a deal between Selig and the Wilpons solely becuase the financials were so bad and was in on it from day 1. He was brought in not to win games but to cut cost even if it meant competitveness would disappear. Omar brought in players who didn’t work out. How about Emaus, Carasco, Hu, Young, Paulino, Boyer, etc, etc?

  This article is all about brain washing and I, for one, am not falling for it. A Great New Deal? Nah, more like the Hollow Short Change administration. This is not rebuilding; it is planned destruction!
• Metsie December 13, 2011 at 9:41 am

  Change merely for the sake of change isn’t always change for the better!

  Lets give an example here…

  You want to go 100 miles north, it takes a long time and you feel like your not getting anywhere, Does changing your direction to walk south a change that is good and productive? Isn’t north where you want to be?

  People don’t have problems with Change, the problem is the change seems to be to sell off all the GOOD players and resign cheap crap!

  You can compare the results of the last 10 years or compare what Omar did but it would seem apparent that people forget all about 2006, 2007 and 2008! They only look at 2009 and 2010. Cherry Picking results because it suits the argument for change!

  Yet before these changes started we were 7.5 games out of the wildcard and playing .593 baseball. Right up until the time the CHANGE started, K-Rod Traded, Beltran Traded Two of our best players gone. Now Reyes is out of here.I mean think of any other team in the MLB and what they would call it if they had those three players and traded them?

  Would it be called rebuilding? Or would it be called a FIRESALE? Even Wright could be gone before July!

  Change is good when it is change for the BETTER! Not ALL change is for the better!
  And so far all the change I see is for the worst. We get two 2nd round type picks for a Reyes? Thats a good deal? For an All Star batting Champion?
  We get one AA Pitcher for Beltran? An All Star? Not even some AAAA filler to balance the deal out?
  We let an All Star Closer go for two PTBNL?

  If change meant we are no longer buying players for the sake of buying I would be fine with that!
  If Change meant we were going to sell off high value players for big scores of prospects I might be fine with that too!
  But change doesn’t fit into either of those!
  The only thing that seems to be changed is where before you looked at the stats of players to determine thier worth we instead look at Payroll and year terms to define good value stats be damned!
  Anything under 2 Mil and 2 Years is a good value BUY regardless of stats.
  Anyone above 2 Mil is too much and or worth getting rid of.

  And while the financial situation seems like a good excuse to many the truth is getting people into the stands will solve that problem, Losing fans because all out best players are sent packing will not!

  We saved only 6 Mil by letting Reyes go, but it probably cost us 10-20 Mil in attendance!

  I have no problem with change but it has to be change that actually works to change the last 10 years result! That is the last 10 years if you forget all about 2006, 07 and 08!
  We seem to be going back to 2003, 2004 and 2005 or worse 1977, 78, 79!
• Russell Zanca December 13, 2011 at 10:05 am

  For all the excitement and success of the year’s you mentioned–06,07, and 08, we didn’t even win a pennant. With the core in 09-part of 11, we were declining. You seem to feel just the way I have Metsie until very recently. Now, my point about change is not that it’s always good at all, but that it’s an inevitability. Yes, it often can only bring about something worse.

  Tell me what did Beltran do for SF once he left us? Where is he now? Are you saying the player exchanged for Beltran will never amount to much?

  K-Rod definitely would have saved more game for us, but it wouldn’t have gotten us anywhere near the playoffs.

  You tout Reyes the batting champ and neglect the Reyes who sat out injured 09-11. Is Reyes getting younger or older? Will he be fantastic for the next two-three years? Nobody knows. Of course, I will miss him for many reasons, but the more I read the less it seems that he wanted to stay a Met as much as it seemed true last summer.

  We may be going backward in terms of playing competitive baseball, but I am not ready to simply cast aspersions on all that Mets brass has been doing, which is not to say I am some Alderson supporter. Yes, I expect we will more than likely suck in 2012, and I’m not happy about it either, but just as 2011 had a number of bright spots in terms of how the Mets played hard and often well without a Murderers’ Row for a lineup, let’s see what kind of baseball we get from the 2012 crew.

  I will look to see how Collins handles year two, developments from Duda, Tejada, Murph or Turner (depending on who survives), Davis, and then also see where Wright is in terms of having to be the undisputed leader of this team. And if this newly outfitted bullpen is a little bit better than what we had from July of 2011, then I have to think we are going to hold on to more close games, no?

  There are fans who keep acting as if $ isn’t really the issue for the Mets; I find that take preposterous. Without Reyes no one shows up at Citi. Whatever. Still, there was a lot to like about some of the new guys and the way they played in 2011. If the 2012 Mets can create some excitement, play hard, play with attitude, not get blown away, Mets fans will pay and show up.

  If Pelf and Bay could at least give us C-averages this season and Torres proves a solid defender, then maybe we win another 8-10 games in 2012.

  And if 2013 is a further year of improvement, then we are talking about a team with a real shot at least of a WC playoff berth.

  Hey, it’s December and I am hopeful.
  • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 10:24 am

    No we didn’t win a pennant but we did have a team worth seeing and made the playoffs.
    They played competitive baseball and isn’t that what the goal is? Isn’t that the JUSTIFICATION of Moneyball which we seem to be CHANGING to at this point in time?

    Like I said no one has a problem with change the issue is that change for the sake of change is no better that buying for the sake of buying!
    If you have digestion issues eating corn flakes, sure a change is better? Is change to eating carboard change for the better?

    I do not care one bit about the nature of the change nor the approach used to implement it. What I care about is the CHANGE gets the job done and that it is a change to ACHIEVE the goal of making the playofffs and being competitive for the season.

    With the changes you have seen can you say we are making the playoffs in the next two years? Are we going to be competitive next season? Are we BETTER without Reyes than we were with him? DO you really believe we are?

    I’m not opposed to change I am opposed to going backward thinking it will make it eaier to go forward in the future.
    All I see is a removal of everything that has performed so that once these kids we expect to create the change are ready we have to UNCHANGE and go back to our spend at all cost plan to fill in around them!

    When Harvey and Famila are here who is going to score and drive in the runs?
    Tejada? Who is going to get to those ground balls on the right side? Murphy and his re-engineered knees?
    If Wright gets traded at the deadline who is going to drive runs in? Going to protect Davis and Duda? Jason Bay it?

    Forget Reyes for now, Which position have we upgraded since Sandy got here?
    Can you name one?
    Certainly wasn’t the bullpen who he has scrapped a second time in consecutive years!
    Did Sandy improve RF or did Omar when he took Duda?
    Did Sandy improve 1B or did Omar when he took Davis?
    Did Sandy acquire Reyes’ replacement or did Omar when he got Tejada?
    Even Murphy is got via the OLD CHANGED approach.

    Name one guy Sandy has acquired that has made the team better on the MLB side of things. Sure he got Wheeler, But thats about it! He hasn’t yet pitched a single MLB game and probably wont for two years!

    Even the two kids he seems to be relying on are products of BEFORE CHANGE!
    Sansy has not improved even one position but has degraded three in his one year of CHANGE!

    And thats not change for the better!
    And if he doesn’t start improving the MLB squad soon we will be implementing CHANGE yet again!
    Because he will be fired and the new guy will CHNAGE AGAIN!

    Only this time he won’t have the attendance or the players Sandy had to get the job done!
    Which leaves him no alternative but to go BACK to what Omar did and BUY BUY BUY!
    All because the change we made was the wrong change needed at the time!
    We didn’t need to tear this team down what we needed was to build it up cheaply!

    Currently all we did changed was our ability to pay for good players, and thats not GOOD change it’s just change for the sake of change!
    Just as bad as buying for the sake of buying!
    • Russell Zanca December 13, 2011 at 10:33 am

      You apparently enjoyed those collapses a lot more than I did.

      Incidentally, who chose Collins to be the manager? I’d cite him as a positive Alderson selection.
      • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 10:41 am

        The collapses were only possib;e because we were winning the rest of the season!
        I would much rather be in it for an ENTIRE season and fall short in the last week than to never be in the game at all!

        Question: Who HIRED Collins in the first place? Sandy or Omar?
        Who can say that Collins wasn’t the logical choice to manage if Omar had stayed?

        So far the biggest names Sandy has brought in are all in the front office!
        One guy supposedly is a DEEP STATISTICAL ANALYSIS STAT guy…
        Which player have we acquired that shows the fruits of that DEEP Analysis?
        Garret Olsen?
        Buchholtz?
        • trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:51 am

          It’s been one year. What part of that are you not understanding? One year in which they had no money to spend and are taking a much different approach to building the team that will hopefully build long-term success instead of spending each year looking for quick fixes.
    • trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:37 am

      You are missing two points. One, Sandy has only been here a year. How can you judge any of his moves yet and say he is using Omar’s players. Of course he is. Did we expect him to release every player and just use the players he signed or drafted? Two, and most importantly, the Mets do not have the money to keep status quo and continue spending to fix the problem. The only option is to slash payroll and see what some of these guys Omar and Sandy have provided us with have and if they are guys that they can build around or guys that need to be replaced. Think about this, do you want to go out and sign a big name RF or see what Duda can do? Do you want to go out and sign a big name FA pitcher or see what Gee can do? In an ideal world the Mets would have the resources to go all in and sign guys like Fielder, Wilson and Pap. Things are far from ideal and sometimes indeed you do have to take a step back, see where the positives and negatives are and then move forward.
      • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 10:42 am

        Name one player he has brough that has made this team better on the MLB level?
        If he has NONE in 1 year multiply ZERO by 5 years then tell me how many more he gets with more time!
        • trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:46 am

          This is ridiculous. How can you judge what he has brought in based on one year? Especially in a year that he had absolutely no financial flexibility. Would you have rather he traded Beltran for a MLB player (with lesser upside than Wheeler) just so we could look at something pretty on a damaged ship? Or maybe you are one of the ones that think he should not have traded Beltran and just received absolutely nothing in return.
          • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 11:45 am

            If you can’t get even ONE player in a year then what makes you think he is going to make things better?

            If he gets one player every two years how long will it take him to fix this team? 20 Years?

            Get real the fact that he has gotten NOTHING in a year translates to no one in 5 years! Or one player every 5 years!

            If he can’t improve even ONE position in a year then he is incapable of fixing this team and will take too long to succeeed which means he will be fired before he even gets out of the starting gate!

            The one Year excuse isn’t cutting it as this is the second off season where he has gotten rid of more good players that he has got!

            Thats BACKWARDS progress not forward progress!
            And if you don’t get that point then you obviously think getting worse is somehow getting better!
• trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:15 am

  Hey you had me until the end. Does this mean that Sandy is going to create an unsustainable social programs that years down the road will actually cause more damage than benefit? I digress…

  As a former Omar supporter, Omar did a lot of good things but eventually lost his direction because of the success of 2006 (way too early) and the failures in 2007 and 2008. In hindsight the Mets should have cleared house after 2008 instead of pouring more money into a flawed product. Then of course, I like many blamed the injuries of 2009 and 2010 but that does not change the facts that the decisions since 2006 have put the Mets in the situation they are currently in.

  As a current Sandy supporter, Sandy has done some good things and some decisions have not worked out. However, it is very difficult to judge his finished product while he still has so little financial flexibility. Throwing crap on the wall, which is all the budget will support, will result in more failures than successes in terms of individual players. I would imagine all over baseball that percentage of Capuano’s is around 25% tops. I know many on here especially have issue with advanced stats and think that is the only judge Sandy uses. However, based on his decisions the last year plus you can tell it’s not all about Saber but trying to find value. If that is in stats, great. If that is in a guy who is 2 years removed from surgery on an incentive contract, great.

  It is an unfortunate situation that the Mets are in and regardless of who to blame they are in that situation and there is only one way out for NOW… time.
  • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Omar lost his direction because he spent a lot on players who were hurt and there was no good reason to go spend more knowing those key players were not going to be playing.
    And even if they were not hurt there as hardly anyone to get that would improve the team.

    Jason Bay was neck and neck with Holliday on the top FA list that year!

    2009 they thought they had a good team until it got hurt.
    2010 Beltran still out they risked signing Bay (it was a mistake they needed pitching not a bat but thats what was out there!)

    We say Omar lost it but then look at the few remaining good players on the team and in the minors.
    They are all part of Omar’s plan!
    Davis? Omar Pick
    Tejada? Omar
    Duda? Omar
    Murphy? Omar
    Turner? Omar
    Harvey? Omar
    Familia? Omar!

    I am not trying to say here Omar was a great GM but considering what we have that is good compared to what Sandy has brought in so far you have to see that Sandy has brought nothing to the game but Nimmo and Wheeler and it cost him three all star players to get that! (ok two all stars because he has yet to make his two 2nd round picks he got for Reyes as compensation)
    • trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:44 am

      Judging Sandy based on what he has brought in over the course of one year is ridiculous. We have no idea what impact those guys will have and still have more moves to make. Your point on Omar’s players being guys we are looking at now is solid but also we are not sure if some of those players are guys they want to build around so Sandy is caught giving them time to prove themselves, example Thole and Tejada.

      My point with 2006 remains, if you go back Omar mentioned his plan was to build around pitching, speed and defense. However, when you look at the stats for 2006 many players had a career year and the Mets were close to a WS. Thus Omar called an audible and tried to spend their way into a championship breaking away from that mold almost completely. Then after the collapses of 2007 and 2008 Omar again went to the cash well and supplied us with more older/injury prone players and those teams got injured and vastly under performed regardless of the reason. Because of that Omar was never able to return to his original plan. I did not nor do I hate Omar, it was just time for a different direction. Hopefully Sandy is the one to do that. If not then so be it. However, judging him now after two off-seasons of handicapped finances and no financial flexibility due to the previous regime is just plain silly.
      • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 11:47 am

        If you can’t get ONE improved player in a year then you can’t get one in 20!
        If he can;t get at least one improvement per year then he will never get enough improvement or will need 25+ years to make one whole roster!

        Please only ONE year is a piss poor excuse because he has gotten NOTHING in that year which means he probably won’t get one in TWO
• Russell Zanca December 13, 2011 at 10:49 am

  I don’t have any interest in turning this into an Omar vs. Sandy debate. That’s a waste of my time.

  Happy to revisit this topic in late September 2012, though
  • trs86 December 13, 2011 at 10:52 am

    Actually we won’t be able to judge that until Sandy has been here as long as Omar or at least until he is gone.
    • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 11:47 am

      H Omar made the playoffs after one year…Will Sandy?
  • Metsie December 13, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Be happy to see you then.
    How many wins do you predict Sandy will get this year with Reyes gone? Less than last year or more?