30
2011
The Reyes and Pujols Contracts
An article by 
I found it very interesting how creative both sides were in constructing the contracts for Jose Reyes and the Marlins, and Albert Pujols and the Angels..
Both players got huge deals, but each one took less money up front to help their teams in the next two years. ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick reported that Pujols’ 10-year contract was back loaded so that the Halos could afford to sign C.J. Wilson.
The Marlins used their savings on Reyes’ backloaded contract to sign free agent pitcher Mark Buehrle.
Jose Reyes will earn just $10 million in 2012 and $10 million more in 2013. He’ll receive the remaining $82 million on his deal in years 3-6 – an average of $20.5 million annually.
Albert Pujols will earn base salaries of $12 million in 2012 and $16 million in 2013. The remaining bulk of his $254 million deal will be paid out in years 3-10 for an average annual salary of $28.25 million dollars.
Some fans believe that backloaded contracts like this can cripple a team. They don’t. As a matter of fact, the $20-$30 million that these players won’t get paid in years one and two, will be earning interest and dividends that will help offset the higher salaries in the finals years of the deal.
In the long run and based on the principles of the “Time Value of Money“, the Marlins and Angels will have proven to have done quite well for themselves in the long run. In addition to coming up with the magic numbers needed to sign both star caliber players, they made it possible to fortify their additions by adding additional key players to their rosters to increase their chances for the post season.
In other words, would you rather pay Jose Reyes $40 million over the next two seasons?
Or would you rather pay Jose Reyes AND starting pitcher Mark Buehrle $40 million over the next two seasons?
Clearly the latter is the better option.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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Joe–I don;t understand. If the purpose of backloading is to free up money to pay someone else, then how can the club invest it for long term returns?
It has a dual effect, both of which benefits the team.
In the case of the Marlins and Angels, both teams were already targeting starting pitchers this offseason in addition to a big bat. The savings on the backloaded contracts not only clinched it, but probably enabled them to go after Buehrle and CJ Wilson rather than a Paul Maholm.
In the meantime, the money they are not paying Pujols and Reyes now is theirs and accruing interest. In the Marlins case, rather than having a $90 million payroll in 2012, they will have an $80 million payroll barring any new changes. Its still $10 million saved this year and next.
Another benefit in the first couple of years of those contracts is that they will be prime years for both players so why not take advantage of that and try to win now by using the savings for more reinforcements.
But that was my point. The money they are not spending on Reyes or Pujols they are spending on another contract. At least the Angels are.
Hi Joe – Happy New Year to you & your family!
Back-loaded contracts, in their proper context, can be very valuable tools. Both the Angels & Marlins leveraged this principle to bring in two players at once, rather than bringing in just one player with homogenized annual payments. Very smart.
Sometimes, back-loaded contracts can blow up in your face. Look no further than Johan Santana’s contract – the Mets are on the hook for, what, somewhere b/w 23-24m this year. He’s injured, so some of this $$$ will be defrayed by insurance. Regardless, when a back-loaded contract such as Johan’s in coupled with a large contract such as Jason Bay’s, the results can be devastating.
In this sense, the Marlins are at greater risk than the Angels, as I believe Reyes & Buehrle represent a greater health risk than Pujols and Wilson. Taken a step further, the Marlins will be absolutely screwed if they deal away Hanley Ramirez and Reyes gets hurt.
So, at the present moment, the Angels and Marlins appeared back-loaded contract appear to be shrewd baseball money management decisions; however, as is always the case, we need to see how it plays out.
Happy New Year to All!!!
2-Cat
TOMMY, ARE U UNDER THE MISTAKEN IMPRESSION THAT SANTANA’S CONTRACT WAS/IS COVERED FOR DISABLITY INSURANCE? IF SO, U R INCORRECT! THE ENTIRE BOWL OF BEANS IS DIREVTLY OUT OF OPERATING REVENUE AS IT APPEARS TODAY NEARLY A THIRD(31%) OF THE 2012 PAYROLL ALLOCATION80M) WILL BE FLUSHED DOWN THE SCUPPERS ON SANTANA
Miami Marlins will be 2012 Champions… meanwhile, sandy alderson and the mets will keep acquiring franchise players like andres torres and fran francisco. 2016 here we come!!!!
I know that you’re just busting chops, but you might not be far from the truth. The Marlins always seem to win champions whenever they choose to spend big. Happy New Year, Alex.
Joe D, i am not, my prediction is the marlins will be the champions. i think the core of young players they got, plus the pitching makes them a favorite to win it all.. they have a good team all around imo, and happy new year to you and yours joe D, thanks for having this great site for suffering mets fans like us, this is what keeps most of us sane and alive.
coming on a blog and bitching about a team that you “love” and ripping its general manager is what keeps you sane and alive? I feel sorry for you.
Yes and they will have a HUGE firesale in 2013 were Reyes is traded for a Rookie league “C” Prospect and same for Burhle and H. Ramirez. Thats the biggest reason Reyes’ contract was back loaded. If so then why wouldn’t the Marlins give him a no trade?
Yeah I don’t see the Marlins winning the World Championship this year although a healthy and effective Josh Johnson and a non fractured clubhouse gives them a chance.
I see Philly and Atlanta 1-2, Washington and Miami 3-4. Can you make the playoffs now as a 3rd place team? If you can that’s their only chance.
LORIA, IMO, IS TAKING A FLIER ON A SPRINT RUN TO A CHAMPIONSHIP, IF IT DOESN’T WORK, REYES, AMONG OTHERS ARE GONE; TO THINK HE LOCKED IN 90%(4Y) OF REYES’ PRIME FOR APPROX. $80M IS BRILLIANT ON HIS PRT; BUT DAMNABLE ON THE WILPON LEDGER IN THE WORDS OF WUILLIAM S.; “A POX ON BOTH THEIR HIOUSES”
Actually I think all loria did was spend the extra money he wasn’t getting before from concessions.
Really he added only 50 Mil to his payroll in total. And most of that won’t kick in till two years from now and the fact he has no trade limitations he can easily get out of those deals.
He will have roughly the same Salary as us when all is said and done (future signings not included) and have a top All Star Pitcher SS and Closer!
In fact if Sandy truly is going to succeed here the plan he is implementing will look just like it!
Get down to nothing spending, lose a lot and make good picks and then go and buy the talent that gives you credibility to lead them.
Problem is it takes a lot longer than 4 or 5 years to do that, takes almost a decade of picks before you get there and then only if your really good with the picks!
METSIE, THE 4,5 YRS IS FAR FROM THE ONLY PROBLEM SINCE THE GROUNDRULES APPLYING TO BONUS PAYMENTS TO DRADFT PICKS PRESENTLY HAS A PAINFUL BITE DUE TO THE PIRANHA LIKE TEETH THE LATEST CBA PUNISHES PAYING “OVER-SLOT” INCIDENTS. BEING POSITIONED TO ACQUIRE THE TOP AMATUER TALENT IS ONE PROBLEM, MEETING THAIR AGENT’S/FAMILY’S AVAROUS GOLDLUST IS QUITE ANOTHER
HNY 62!
The new CBA will definitly make the drafting only approach much harder.
I agree the player agents will try to get a lot but I think reality will slap them in the face after 2 years of not signing their clients and forcing them back into the draft.
What I am unsure of is WHO the new CBA will affect the most.
It may not change what the top 1st rounders get all that much but have a much more significant impact on players in rounds 4-10. The Top guys will probably get the same but the result will be no money left to sign those later picks who your not really sure of and will have to take less so the team can give the earlier picks more.
I doubt highly any team will risk going overslot by more than the taxable amount because if it means losing picks then it makes much more sense to not sign those late not so sure picks this year than it is to lose top picks next year!
So all those 4th-10th round picks are going to lose the most in this new CBA. And the teams will actually net fewer overall picks if they are picking at the top!
But We will see what actually happens. I’m willing to bet there is some loophole that will be exploited to make the entire rule moot!
The end loaded contracts do not help you in the long run if your team is planning on a pretty much fixed salary budget. You get to bring in more talent for a couple years and then you have to start dumping to keep at that fixed amount and you can’t trade the end loaded contract because nobody will take it. If hawever, you have an increasing salary budget, due to inflation and good pr to keep your sales high via attendance and jersies and high tV/radio revenues from increaded viwership then it is a good idea. If you decide to change your strgey because of a bad contract then it is a very bad idea. If you realize that there is no gain without some pain, and are willing to keep investing in talent from veterans and kids and keep both avenues open for talent, then it is good. If you are like the Mets and your only plan is to hang on to ownership no matter what then it is irrelevant, because a competitive team is not your goal.
Basically what you’re saying is the Wilpons suck, and they seriously need to sell the team.
FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN KARMA; THE MOST POESTIC OF JUSTICES WAS METERED OUT TO THE WILPONS AS THEY MADE AN ARTFORM OUT OF DEFERRED SALARY PAYMENTS BEARING INTERESTR @ A RATE LESS THAN TEAM WAS GUARANTEED ON THE WITHOLDINGS THE JUSTICE IS THIS. THE DEFERRED PMT ACCOUNTS WITH THE LIBERAL GUARANTEED INTEREST TO THER CLUB WERE MADOGFF GUANANTEES AS BERNIE HELD ALL THE DEFERRED PMT ACCOUNTS DUE BONILLA, SANTANA, LIETER, GLAVINE, et al. WHILE FRED MUST STILL PAY THE INTEREST HE PROMISED; THUS A PENNY-WISE MEAGER PROFIT MARGIN SCHEME HAS BACKFIRED INTO ANOTER WILPON LOST CAUSE! AS I SAID K A R M A!
The Marlin ownership will sell the team after two seasons! Not only will the back end loaded contracts come due, but the fans will be long gone once the newness of the ballpark where’s out.
Agreed. Loria could care less what happens to these players as they age on the expensive backside of the contracts. I don’t think he has any intention of remaining the owner. He’s going to make his money then bail.
The problem for the Marlins is they’re are going to be in a bad way in 3 years with the contracts they’ve handed out. Reyes will be making $22 million a year over the last 3 years and Buerhle, at age 35-36 will be making $17 and $19 million in his last two years. The Marlins gave out no no-trade clauses, which is good for them, but if Reyes’ legs go out on him in the latter part of his contract and the Marlins wish to move him, they won’t be able to move that money without eating a huge amount. Ditto for Buerhle. Of course every other team employees the same backloading tactic to help short term. Just hoping the Marlins come to rue the contracts they’ve handed out this winter.
86Mets, if the marlins win it all in 2012, or in 2013, maybe both year, will the contracts of reyes and buerhle be worth it even if they suck the years after that?? in my opinion, yes… who cares 3 years down the road, we’re talking about NOW!!!!! and please don’t give me the ohh look at what happened to the mets with the FA they signed, while they weren’t the smarterst moves at least we took risk, now we’re handing out 1 and 2 year deals to players who suck but are cheap, hence the last place tag we’re carrying this year and for years to come, and i got news for you, ask the pirates and the royals how all the big time prospects pan out, they’ve been waiting for YEARS to have a good team with the prospects, for the pirates is been 20+ years since they’ve sniffed the playoffs, the royals, yeah, try 25 years ago…
Alex, the Yankees wouldn’t have won World Series in 96, 98, 99, 00, and 09 without SIGNIFICANT contributions from their own farm system. Let’s see, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettite, Robinson Cano to name a few. You have to have a mixture of homegrown talent and SMART FA signings. Which frankly I’m not so sure the Marlins have been smart: they’ve likely alienated their current SS by signing Reyes causing a potential clubhouse problem, they spent their money on an aging and declining closer (Bell) rather than a younger Paplebon. I think the Marlins are spending money for the sake of spending money. Which is never the answer: ask the Mets of the early ’90′s.
As far as the Mets current approach to free agency, well you can thank the Wilpons for that. Losing $70 million a year with owners having close to $1 billion in debt means you CAN NOT go on a spending spree for guys like a Paplebon, Fielder, Pujols, Reyes, Wilson, or Beltran. The Mets just do not have money to spend. That’s why we’re seeing the Chris Young’s and Jon Rauch’s of the world being signed to short, relatively inexpensive contracts. There simply is NO OTHER option for the Mets because of the mess the Wilpons have put them in. I am no fan of Sandy Alderson at all, but the fact is his hands are tied and he simply cannot compete with the Marlins and the Nationals and the Phillies for free agent talent.
And yes, the Mets did take risks for the sake of contending. Some of those risks were well founded: Johan Santana, Billy Wagner, Carlos Beltran, even Pedro Martinez were money well spent even if injuries took a toll on the players. 29 other teams would’ve done the same thing if they had the money to spend. However, other risks were not very smart from the get go, Jason Bay for example. Red flags abounded with him in that the Red Sox pulled their offer off the table, no one else was seriously interested, and Bay himself wasn’t too keen on coming to NY. Then, there is Luis Castillo, famously overpaid in dollars and years when no one else was going to. Or how about Oliver Perez, was that a smart risk to take? It’s about being smart which the Mets have NOT been in recent years.
86mets, yes you’re absolutely right, the mets overall as a team have not been lucky with FA since forever, goes back to george foster, with all that being said, you mention the yankees and the farm system contribution they’ve had in all those championship years of 96 and up, BUT remember, they had really good players and veteran players around those teams, jeter while a great player had bernie williams, and let’s not forget who the heart and soul of those team was paul oneill, i hope all these kids the mets have become all time greats, but let’s face it, the odds of that are not good…
Bernie Williams was a Yankee farmhand and O’neill was acquired for Roberto Kelly, a Yankee farmhand.
ok, what about boggs, oneill, sierra, tino martinez, raines, fielder, rogers, gooden, cone, wetteland, wickman nelson…..etc.. were those famrhand as well????????? look at most of the foremention, veterans, leaders, good players, great players…. is not all about the farm you know, as great as wheeler may be, what good will he be having a team with no offense and no bullpen behind him???? get it???
Those guys were all trades or non compensatable free agents. Guys that didn’t cost draft choices.
O’Neil for instance was traded for an IFA. Tino and Nelson traded for a 20th and 29th rounder and two IFA’s.
T, I have a comment awaiting moderation that breaks it all down. Of those twelve players he mentioned, only three were FA signings, and two were busts.
Give me the heads up on it when it hits if you catch it X. Thanks.
T, my comment was moderated and posted. Look for 12:06pm.
you know, you’re obsession with draft picks is getting ridiculous, stop it ok. in order to win you cannot only rely on the farm, there’s gotta be some sort of veteran leadership and good players on the team as well… you’re fantasy all farm lineup is not gonna happen… in order to build a championship there’s gotta be some risk as well. ask the yankees when they got tartabull and got burn.. they then traded him for who exactly??? yeah, ruben sierra who then was traded for fielder… is called risks, yankees kept taking them and finally paid off when after 4 years of tartabul and sierra they got fielder and a WS ring…
What risk did they take? Negligible contracts to some veterans? Where was the risk? Which contract was the one that if it didn’t work out, would cripple the team?
Answer: there was none, because they didn’t need it. They scouted, drafted and developed all their impact players except for the ones they acquired via trading their farmhands. The only FA signings for the Yankees dynasty were the general back-of-the-rotation starters, 4th OFs, bottom of the order hitters, platoons, etc. Fielder didn’t exactly light it up for the Yanks, but he was serviceable, and that’s all they needed from him.
I’m not obssessed with draft picks per se. I’m obsessed with having a winning NY Met Team.
I do want us to develop our own superstars and get their BEST years, not get other teams worst or injury prone one’s.
I also want to have the goods in the farm to get guys before they become free agents from other teams. See this is how the NYY and Braves do it. They decide who they want and then go out and get the guy, not just wait around and see “who’s available.”
THEY pick the player, free agent or not and then bring him in. Tino, Knoblauch, Nelson, O’Neil, Swisher, Granderson. They decide. Their not just limited to those that make it to free agency. Of course they always have the option to bring in a CC, Tex or Burnett but they also have the highly desirable farm in which to get the guy they really want, before he’s a free agent.
Plus even drafting AFTER us all these years they not only have the trade goods, they also have the in house solutions. Cano, Gardner, Robertson, Montero, Romine, Cervelli, Joba, Hughes, Brackman, Betances, Banuelos, Nova, Nunez.
Good players for themselves, good players to trade and good depth to have.
Much better than signing guys that half that half the time you can’t get anything for and play like **** or spend half their time here on the DL.
Back to second guessing, is guys like you that make some mets fans not wanting to root for wheeler and nimmo, because only THEN can be prove to you that even highly touted prospect turn to sh**… prospects get hurt as well you know, look at fmart, mejia, havens, etc.. they all get hurt and struggle ok, so is not as if having an all farm team will not go trough this type of situations..
xtreemagee. the yankees took risk by trading for veterans player who were going to be salary dumps too.. remember, some trades are salary dumps, kinda like krod this year, the team usually trading for the player usually pays the remaining salary. the yankees did that with most or some of the players they acquire in trades, some of them became free agents and the yankees signed them right away..
That’s not a risk. That’s a negligible contract. A couple of mil for a washed up player who can either be serviceable, or be dumped with no adverse affect on the team. A risk? Bay was a risk.
Pay closer attention. The two biggest impact hitters on that list are O’neill and Tino, and all it cost them was farmhands Roberto Kelly, Sterling Hitchcock and Russ Adams. The two imjpact pitchers, Nelson and Wetteland were traded for pospects. Sierra was traded for the first time with the Yanks. Sierra was traded for the second time to the Yanks. Tim Raines was traded for a PTBNL. Yanks got Fielder in a trade. Yanks got Cone in a trade. And guess how they got Wickman? Right. They traded for him.
You just gave me twelve players, and only three of them were free agent signings, Tim Raines, Gooden and Kenny Rogers. And none of those three were impact players at all. Nice, complementary pieces that surrounded a core of homegrown talent and superstars (Tino and O’neill) who were acquired for farmhands.
What else you got?
Thanks X.
Lot’s of fans point to the NYY as a succesful example of monkeyball but the facts are that Gabe Paul and later Gene Michael made those teams primarially with drafting, IFA’s seeing what they had and then trading attractive prospects and filling in with some free agents, most of whom didn’t cost any draft choices.
The NYY have absolutely gone out and gotten some of the best guys available in free agency but that has not been their PRIMARY source of talent.
When the NYY were trying to fix every deficiencey after the fact is when they were at their worst. 1982-1994. The free agent and deadline deals rip offs is what killed them. The farm and trades from the farm is what won them those World Championships.
Monkeyball has only been successful for us in years in which the Marlins have had fire sales. Is that what you want to wait for?
Well, after the spree the Marlins just went on and the fact that in all likelihood they won’t be able to support it in the near future just might actually cause a fire sale. Then maybe Reyes actually will retire as a Met!
Off to the Pinstripe Bowl. Have a good one.
NYY got a significant contribution from their own farmhands (Munson, Stanley, Roy White, Righetti, Guidry) in the late 70′s – early 80′s too as well as guys they traded for like Nettles, Chambliss, Dent, Randolph, Pinella, Rivers, Tidrow, Lyle, Ron Davis
Catfish, Reggie, Gossage and Tommy John certainly helped too but there were free agent busts as well like Gullet, Messersmith and Collins.
Without the trades and farmhands the free agents wouldn’t have made a difference.
Not taking anything away from their kids as they were a part of it but you do have to give guys like:
Rogers, Gooden, Key, Boggs, Martinez (96)
Wells, Cone and Hernandez (98)
Hernandez, Cone and Clemens (99)
Clemens and Hernandez (2000)
Texiera, Rodriguez, Damon, Swisher, Matsui, Sabathia, and Burnett (2009)
They made the LDS the year before with guys like Cone, McDowell, Boggs, Fernandez, and Stanley.
Pettite and Rivera were the real KEYS to thier Homegrown boost followed by Jeter a year later. Posada was a star mostly because of where he was much more than what he did, A very Good catcher no one deny’s it but lets be honest not the guy who made the Yankees go! He did a great job handling the great pitching they kept getting around Pettite and Rivera which made his job pretty easy!
The Pettite thing is not so much proof that having a homegrown team makes you a great ballclub but more the notion that having one Ace type Pitcher for an extended period of time allows you to play All Star Pitcher of the year during Free Agency so you can have MORE than one Ace over an extended period of time!
Look at all the teams who have been dominant throughout history and you see it is THAT which leads to the many wins and constant playoffs not the fact you have homegrown all stars (though it doesn’t hurt)!
Phillies had Hamels who could be an ace on most teams, They added Lee and Halladay and does anyone think they won’t be playing for a Playoff spot in September?
Braves were dominant because of Smoltz and Glavine and eventually Maddox and kept that rotaion for quite a few years leading to them dominating the division.
The 86 mets as well had three quality pitchers for the duration of their winning ways.
We put WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on the homegrowns and count but the teams that are used as an example all have one HOMEGROWN thing in common…a PItcher!
And a damn good one! ACE Caliber!
That was the key to the Yankees, Braves and Philies!
Key to the 86 mets as well!
Of all those guys you mentioned only Rogers, Wells and Texeira cost a #1 draft choice. CC cost a #2 and Burnett a #3 and that’s over a 15 year period.
None of the others took one single thing away from the future teams.
As for “we put TOO MUCH emphasis on the homegrown” I simply don’t know how to respond to that. We’ve developed two everyday position playing All Stars in the last two decades and one pitcher. (Kazmir)
In the early 90′s we developed two. Fonzie and Izzy both signed in ’91.
That is 5 guys in 30 years, two of whom we didn’t even get any value out of.
Now we have a pretty fair chance of getting some out of guys on the way up but how many MORE could we have had if we hadn’t given away fifteen 1st, 2nd or 3rd round draft choices in the last 20 years?
Dude your the only one who wets his pants over losing a #1 Draft pick!
teams do it all the time because they are a winning franchise, Pick very late in the 1st round and know what they get towards winning a WS now will offset any scrap left in the 1st round will get them!
So please stop with the constant bitching about losing a 1st Round pick especially whewn the guy you like Blew THREE of them in a single round even with the top overall pick!
If you think it is important and a sin to give away a pick or smart not to waste them then I suggest you write a very good piece on the failure of mcIlvane to restore some credibility to that argument!
Teams routinely refuse to give up their #1 pick or do so reluctently and certainly not every other year or fail to take back one’s handed to them on a silver platter.
Secondly I fail to see how Paul Wilson, Terrence Long and Jay Payton are examples of blown draft choices. Wilson got hurt. Same injury as Johan. Long had the talent, didn’t translate but he certainly had the talent. More of it than anyone in our OF in 2000 and only 3 guys drafted before Payton and three after had better careers and he did have reconstructive surgery on his elbow three times as a prospect.
It’s really much more of a case of bad luck and poor development as opposed to flat out busting on almost every single draft choice like Phillips did.
Paul Wilson was the concensous #1 choice anyone would have selected #1. Maybe other teams wouldn’t have had their farm directors pitch him 185 innings 8 complete games his 2nd professional season but Phillips and Duquette did.
Plus Long and Payton were selected with picks for letting Sid go free agent and that turned out to be a very good move. Anything Long and Payton gave us was better than what Sid gave Baltimore plus Long was a still regarded as a very talented prospect when he was traded and got us Kenny Rogers which regardless of how the ’99 post season ended was a big help in GETTING us to the post season, something that can’t be said of Sid had he been resigned.
“Secondly I fail to see how Paul Wilson, Terrence Long and Jay Payton are examples of blown draft choices”
Well therein lies the basic flaw in your 25 year theory!
“Wilson got hurt”
Hmm I remember no sense of compassion for Omar when his guys got hurt in fact he was BLAMED for that fact! I guess it is fair then to blame mcIlvane as well? Or do you wish to retract your blame of Omar instead? I leave it up to you!
“really much more of a case of bad luck and poor development as opposed to flat out busting on almost every single draft choice like Phillips did”
Yeah cause that guy Wright, Heilman and Kazmir were all stiffs!
I wonder how many 1st overall picks Phillips blew in comparison?
I wonder how many WS Phillips didn’t get us compared to McIlvane?
McIlvane sucked! And is even MORE responsible for the 15 years of suck you lumped in with Phillips and Omar trying to make them look bad!
Far FAR different scenario with Wilson and Payton getting hurt in the minors then Pedro, El-Duque, Trachsel, Delgado, Wagner and Alou getting hurt up here.
180 degrees.
The mid 90′s Mets hadn’t spent a fortune on 35-45 year old players while forking over draft choice after draft choice only to see them go down one right after the other with no competent back up in place and no AAA depth.
Asinine comparison.
Only in your warped McIlvane as GOD cult is it any different!
Only those who will do ANYTHING to excuse his failures thinks it’s any different!
A much more realistic comparison to Wilson and Payton would be Fern and Havens and nobody has given Minaya any stick at all over those guys. In fact I’ve given Minaya credit for those signings simply for the fact that at the time, those were clearly well thought out moves for the overall health of the Franchise and our long term interests.
No one’s making excuses for Mcilvaine, like you do for Minaya. Certainly not me. I brought up the Kent Baerga trade, I did seek to put it in context and I noticed their was no opposing view point of the context I put it in. I labeled it one of the top 10 worst trades in Franchise History. I also called the Dykstra-Wilson trades inexplicable. Not trying to excuse anything or pin someother GM’s poor signing onto someone else or blame the media for “goading” Minaya into signing Bay which in my opinion is not only laughably naive but also down disrespectful to Minaya, as if he pandered to the Media or worse took direction from them.
Oh please I haven’t made one damn excuse for Minaya, Just pointing out your DOUBLE STANDARD when judging Met GMs on their actions!
Omar can do no RIGHT
McIlvane can do no wrong!
Mets have had the 1st overall Pick 5 times since 65!
The names are:
Chilcott
Foli
Strawberry
Abner
Paul WIlson
Omar had no 1st overall he was too busy playing meaningful games for three seasons straight!
Overall we have had 20 Top 10 selections since 65!
Names are:
Rohr (2nd) Weiss is the GM Grant just president
Chilcott (1st)
Matlack (4th) Bing Devine is GM
Foli (1st) Murphy is GM
Sterling (4th)
Benton (6th) Joe McDonald is GM
Brooks (3rd)
Leary (2nd)
Strawberry (1st) – Cashen Arrives
Blocker (4th)
Gooden (5th)
Williams (4th)
Abner (1st)
Preston Wilson (9th) Hunsicker’s last year as GM!
Presley (8th) Harazin as GM
Paul Wilson (1st) McIlvane as GM
Goetz (6th)
Humber (3rd) Duquette as GM
Pelfrey (9th) Omar as GM
Harvey (7th)
The final two were Omars!
the other 18 (of which only Gooden Brooks and Strawberry were any good) are what you lumped into a group to trash Omar’s MONKEYBALL!
Tell me again why this franchise only has Two WS wins and 4 WS appearances?
Why is it we only have one WS appearance in the last 25 years? Is it due to Omar and Phillips or was it the FINE SMART DRAFTING and BUILDING of McIlvane?
Please Tag it was one thing to bitch about the last 25 years of sucking and you might have had a point if you didn’t defend the guy who was involved in a lot of player moves and development during the majority of that time!
And then to top it all off busted on three 1st rounnder in a single year that INCLUDED the top overall!
We waited on Genration K to solve all of our deficiencies and we are about to DO IT AGAIN with Harvey Familia and Wheeler!
They will need good players behind them for it to work!
And as we saw with generation K there is no damn guarantee they will even get here!
But you and Sandy are putting all our eggs in that basket!
I saw that movie I know how it ends!
HORRIBLY!
Maybe if McIlvane didn’t blow the last time we had three picks in the first that 25 year look down memory lane wouldn’t be so dim!
What makes you say Marlins dont have significant contributions from their farm system? Johnson, Hanley, Gabby, Anibal, Stanton, Morrison, Coghlan, etc.
I think it should be pointed out, The Marlins are a very special case here.
If the attendance stays exactly the same (Doubtful since all those signings will increase it!) as it was last year they will still make another 20-40 Million (probably much much more just a low estimate) from the concession sales they were not getting before. That alone is probably enough to pay for Reyes and Buehrle.
But throw in the added attendance they will likely get for being aggressive in FA this year and those numbers go way way up!
Backloading CAN hurt you if you intend to keep buying Talent every year but the Marlins have never done that before no reason to believe they will do that now.
Don’t forget also that if they win a WS they will pack the place and be flush with cash that they can use to eat some of those contracts in a trade.
By the time those contracts accelerate they can easily increse the prices at the stadium and make even more!
The only RISK is the guys they signed are horrible right out of the gate!
If Reyes or Buehrle should have a career ending injury or just plain out suck big time then they will be hard pressed to trade and replace them.
From the looks of it though they will get two pretty good years at half price and waste no more than 20 Mil a year in Salary subsidizing if they then trade them after that!
And if they win a WS well how can you say spending that wasn’t worth it?
It’s also a good idea when signing free agents to sign a few in the same year rather than one every year since your only giving away one #1 pick at the most.
CC, Tex and Burnett would each have cost the NYY a #1 pick but as it was only cost a #1, #2 and #3.
Marlins with their first rounder protected only give up a #2, #3 and #4.
Guys will most likely be traded though as Delgado, Leiter, Sheffield, Bonilla, Johnson and all the rest were.
Yanks were smart in 2009, not only in keeping picks by signing players all at once like you said, but in playing the market perfectly in the sense that the 2010 and 2011 FA classes were weak. Spend the money on quality (Burnett notwithstanding), not just because.
The Yanks are taking some flack from their fanbase because of their inactivity this off season, but would you rather overpay now for a mediocre pitcher, or have the chance to sign both Cain and Hamels next year and only lose one first-rounder? Besides holding onto your prospects in an attmept to trade for King Felix? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Good point X. One thing the NYY do is stockpile catchers as attractive trade chips and while Montero was available for Lee, I’m sure he’s being held out for Felix if he becomes available.
Always pays to think ahead instead of settling for just “whoever is available” every off season.
No one’s off the table for Felix, as far as I understand the Yankee news, but I think they’re going to try to keep one of their Killer B’s and instead send two lesser prospects in his place. For instance, instead of Montero, Banuelos, Betances and Brackman, they’d rather send Montero, Betances, Brackman, Noesi and Nova.
It’s a very real possibility that this time next year, Matt Cain will be the Yankees 4th starter.
Again with the infatuation on giving away #1 Picks…
Guess what, I have news for you!
1 – We didn’t get one for Reyes not a single one!
2 – Our #1 was protected as theirs was so this was an IDEAL YEAR to have signed a Type A without hurting your fetish about giving away a #1 pick for a Free Agent!
If we had consistently done that, give up one AND get one that would have been a very effective strategy providing we weren’t drafting for ASAP bullpen help when we did, but unfortunately we weren’t doing that all along. We were just giving up picks, not taking them back even when we had a chance.
Wagner left behind the 20th and 39th best picks in the draft and Perez and Castillo would have provided two sandwich picks.
Even if we only hit on one of them that would be one less hole we have to fill right now and those picks hit a lot more often than just 25% of the time.
Hell we could have signed Alou a week later and almost certainly kept our pick and we wouldn’t have lost Flores either.
That’s two more chances we had to “fill holes.”
For all you posters talking Marlins:
The team has been selling “several hundred” season-tickets a day in the wake of signing three premium free agents, according to team President David Samson, though he won’t reveal exact numbers.
“We should be in the top eight or nine in all of baseball for season-ticket holders,” Samson said Tuesday during what was described as the Final Hardhat Tour. “The reason we’re not giving the numbers is the numbers will speak for themselves when you see 35,000 to 38,000 people here every single day.”
Don’t worry so much about the Marlins, worry about the Mets!
So, they gave Reyes the deal they gave Delgado.
Okie dokie.
By the way, the Marlins payroll in 2003 was $45 million. So much for the big spender theory.
Why are we talking about these contracts? Jose Reyes is gone. He is no longer a Met and the only concern Met fans should have about him is how do we pitch to him when he comes to bat and how do we keep him from stealing bases against our pitchers.
But, as long as the subject was brought up…..back loaded contracts are fine when the player continues to perform well for the length of his contract. Truthfully, in most cases a player with a long term deal is past his prime by the end of the contract not too mention the possibility of a serious injury that comes up. In a city like NY, that player often ends up being hated by the final year of his deal.
The problem with these deals is that all too often you end up paying huge dollars to a dog like Bobby Bonilla who didn’t earn his money in any year of his contract. I wonder if we are still paying the likes of Moe Vaughn too?
Unfortunately, far too many players with long term deals will often lose a bit of their “hunger” once they have the comfort of that long contract .
It’s true Alan. The urgency doesn’t seem as much or the pressure to live up to the deal, or something. Put 5-8 of these guys on the team and a culture of acceptance of underperformance permeats the clubhouse and and even infects the younger guys.
Get your own 5 guys up here to form a core and then bring in a specific guy or two, not the other way around.
There’s very little in the way of interest or dividends these days. If you average 2% annually, you’re doing well.I think those ‘creative’ signings will turn out badly, particularly Pujols.
Pops