Attention Donal and Xtreem and Jessep:

1. What are your thoughts on advanced metrics?

2. Did you consider Moneyball a great strategy for Beane?

I saw what was a pretty simple misunderstanding on your part as far as timeline was concerned and pointed it out.

Mind you this is something I see many here do yourself included as far as seeing something that appears as an error that someone else said and attempting to correct it.

There is no more to it than that.

Enjoy the Holiday and try not to wonder any more bout this than what it is.

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/12/being-critical-is-easy-to-do-when-its-all-you-want-to-do.html#comments
XtreemIcon December 29, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Shoot, you got the Moneyball aspect before I could. Well done. Moneyball has nothing to do with baseball. Moneyball is a literary term. Some guy wrote a book about Billy Beane’s business practice for one team for eight seasons, and called it “Moneyball.” Now Moneyball has entered into baseball lexicon and all that does it twist opinions to think that anyone who’s ever met Billy Beane “uses Moneyball.” When in fact there’s no such thing as Moneyball when it comes to baseball.

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/04/book-review-moneyball-an-incredible-revolutionary-masterpiece.html#comments
(Excerpt due to long comment)
“The problem with this whole entire debate (you included, Metsie) is that you’re all arguing pro or con Moneyball as if it’s a real thing. It’s not. It’s a book. It’s a good book, actually, but it’s a book. Everyone should read it. It takes you behind the scenes, into a draft strategy meeting, into phone calls between GMs about trades or whatnot. Any baseball fan should read it because you get insight to things you never get otherwise.

But that’s where it ends. This silly idea that Moneyball is a “philosophy” is so far from the truth, it sours BOTH sides. The closest thing to right in this whole 9,000-comment post is where Metsie said Moneyball is NOT sabermetrics. That’s right on the money. But Metsie went on to say that Moneyball as a philosophy is what kept Beane from spending money. That’s 100% false.

Everyone who made any point based on the premise that Moneyball was a philosophy was wrong, whether it was pro- or anti-sabermetrics.”

Sorry if you misread that but I do wonder why you seem to feel he should need your help!

Sandy is improving the future of this team. 6 months after the season started, he had three prospects in the top 8 in the organization, including the first and third. Right now there’s nothing he can do to make this team win except get lucky. Thats always been the point. I’ve grown bored of reading Jessep eat your breakfast, so I haven’t read everything, but if he ever said that Moneyball was a good plan, then I’d be happy to tell him he’s wrong.

“I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan”
Yeah AFTER I made my post I mean the post times do not lie now do they?”

I can’t decipher your grammar code, but I’ve been saying that forever. Not just in the past 20 minutes.

“I am however tempted to go back a few months where we discussed moneyball and how it was a philosophy of picking talent that was cheasp.”

Please do. I’d love to see what my contribution was to that discussion. All the book Moneyball did was shed light on how one guy exploited a current market weakness. He found cheap talent that way. But that was in that time and that place and has no bearing on any other time and place in baseball, especially now when OBP is no longer undervalued and hasn’t been for quite some time.

Metsie December 24, 2011 at 2:53 pm
“You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it.”

XtreemIcon December 24, 2011 at 3:03 pm
I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan, yet your reply was “You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it.”

Metsie December 24, 2011 at 3:34 pm
“Yeah AFTER I made my post…”

I’d say in this case xtreem looks like he did say it before.

NOW it’s not a philosophy!

Yeah it’s a BOOK about a PHILOSOPHY!

A Philosophy on building a baseball team!
An APPROACH as you will of how to get good results from cheaper players overlooked by the rest of the league!
Which has worked so well in Oakland they wrote a book about it! and Made a movie!
LOL!

Too bad for Oakland more people went to see the movie than showed up at the stadium this year!

You must have hit the egg nog early or something today!

Ah so you disagree that Sandy is actually improving the team and nothing he has done is an improvment at all just an unfortunate turn of Events!

Thank you now tell Jessup how wrong he is for saying otherwise!

See how easy it is to admit those of us who are saying Sandy isn’t helping the team only HURTING it because he is doing nothing about reduced attendance nor anything about making a team that will change that are actually correct on this topic?

Welcome to the Dark Side dude!
I will take this response as my christmas gift! LOL
Happy Holidays!

That’s exactly my point. Your sneaky way to try and prove something wrong that no one is trying to prove right. Forget about Moneyball. It has no bearing on anything that Mets are doing, have done, or will ever do.

Well lets see if Sandy and your method manages a playoff appearance this year the way that awful monkeyball system did you hate so much!

And if not what exactly is this plan good for and how many years of suck is it going take?

Care to say?

Its not double talk you just ignore the points and the nuances of difference being made because it suits your excuse making agenda!

You can close your eyes to all of this i really don’t care if you look foolish for buying this plan as a solution.

You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it. You wont label what you think the plan we are using is called but you think it is a good one so tell us all what it is?

And why you think it is better than Moneyball!

Was it the media that “goaded” Minaya into trading him to us in the first place? Did the media “goad” Phillips into trading him to San Diego?

Was it the Media that demand we solve every single shortage of talent by signing a free agent? Did the media demand that we give up 2nd round draft choices for Mike Cameron and Cliff Floyd? Give up #1 draft choices for Moises Alou and Vince Coleman too?

Was it the Media that demanded we try a rookie infielder in LF? Was it the media that demanded we leave the OF devoid of any credible talent throughout the entire minor league system since Nelson Cruz was traded?

Was it the media that demanded the best LFer we have developed in the last 25 years be a guy who played a total of 380 Major League games and he was drafted almost 20 years ago.

Yeah that’s the ticket, the media’s to blame.

Because “we” aren’t doing that, because it’s not a philosophy. That’s the double talk you consistently find yourself on the short end of. You THINK it’s a philosophy because you don’t understand it and because you want other people to think it is so it can be “proven” a failure.

That’s like you saying Jose Reyes is a terrible athlete because he can’t dunk or beat an OL to the quarterback. He’s a baseball player. He has nothing to do with basketball or football. Much like the way Billy Beane ran the 2002 A’s has nothing to do with the way any GM will run his team in any season.

One you understand that Moneyball has nothing to do with baseball, you’ll understand the game a lot better.

“It is the players” Hairston, Harris, Paulino, Pelfrey as our ACE that is the cause!

The performance is based on WHO we got not how they did!

Performance can reduce attendance no one ever said it did not!
But it is the players you have that give you hope they might perform that INCREASES attendance!

Too bad all these things keep going over your head and you read it as you choose to phrase it!

Bottom line the Wilpons didn’t cause this drop in attendance!
Injuries in 2009 caused it (which is where the players and performace because they were not PLAYING comes in)
Not gettying a top Pitcher in 2010 and instead getting the MOR star Jason Bay instead of Halladay caused the drop in attendance as well as the knowledge that Beltran wouldn’t be there!
2011 dropped attendance further DESPITE a .593 Win Pct in July!

Why is that if winning brings the Fans X?

Is is because we shipped two stars away halfway through the season?
Or because we LOST more once they were gone?
And who is to blame for that?
The Wilpons?
Or the GOLDEN BOY?

And how much further does attendance go down now that Reyes is gone?

Nice try though at thinking you caught me in duality!
I have been WAY more consistent than all you Moneyballers who think we are doing the right thing playing it despite all your protests in regards to us actually doing what you BELIEVE is a good plan!

So tell me why if Moneyball is such a good philosophy do you all trip over each other trying to say we aren’t doing that?
and Why must you blame the Wilpons for the financial issues of team that doesn’t draw?
Did they personally pick the Hairston’s and Harris’ no one wanted to see?
Did they tell Sandy to sign Carrasco to a two year 4 Mil deal or Young to a 2 Mil 4 game contract?

THOSE are the types of deals that have hurt attendance not the Reyes’ and Beltrans even the Perez signings that hurt attendance!
Because we drew 4 Mil when we had those guys and turned a profit!
we topped out at 149 Mil salary and lost nothing!
When we reduced salary to 130 we lost 50 Mil and when we reduced it to 118 Mil we lost 70 Mil!

Tell us why did we lose money spending less and why did we draw less and lose more if thats really what you think caused us to lose attendance?

Was it because we spent too much? Or because we spent too LITTLE!

I wonder if we would have lost 70 Mil if we had signed Lee to a 28 Mil contract last year?

In two sentences, you dug your own grave so deep you can’t get out. Let’s recap.

“”The Wilpons are not the ones who are keeping fans away!” — No rebuttal needed. This is enough on it’s own.

“It is the players and performance on the field that is doing that!” — So it IS all about winning? What happened to this from yesterday?:

Metsie December 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Which is just PROOF POSITIVE that it is not WINNING that packs people into the stadium…

No! Thats where your wrong!
The Wilpons are not the ones who are keeping fans away!
It is the players and performance on the field that is doing that!
You can blame them for not being rich enough to subsidize what attendance will not afford but they are not the reason Attendance has suffered!

The Injuries have a lot more to do with that!
Apathy over not getting the players everyone else seems to be able to afford may be to blame!
But the bottom line is the Wilpons aren’t the REASON the Finances are bad! They are simply not rich enough to SOLVE that problem!

Cutting Payrol is not solving the problem it is merely a bandaid!
They will cut 40-50 Mil from the Payroll this year in hopes of reducing the 70 Mil in losses.
Minus 50 Mil from 70 and tell me how much they make in profit next year even if a miracle happens and they draw the same number of people as they did last year…

Profit -20 Mil….Did cutting Payrol solve the problem? Will we have MORE money or even LESS now that we cut the payroll?

You can ignore that fact but the solution isn’t to spend less the solution is to get MORE people to go!
And you do that by keeping a Reyes and signing someone else to draw more fans!

What we are doing is reducing the losses but your still in the red! Means even less money next year! And we are running out of players to cut to compensate!
Trade Wright who makes 15 Mil and minus that from the 20 Mil of losses!

Still losing 5 Mil so whose next? And how many more people stop going after that happens?

This is the poin those who think we are froced to cut to become solvent miss!
It is not making us solvent it is trading salary for even lower attendance which means the losses contnue until a point where there is no more left to cut and your screwed!
Can’t then go and do what is actually needed to get attendance back up because there is no money to spend and nowhere else to save more!

The solution is to try and maintain attendance while cutting salary! Letting Reyes go does not do that , trading Wright does not do that both REDUCE attendance!

Better to find someone to take Bay even if it means paying most of his salary so you can play someone who might get you some more wins instead and increase attendance!
Better to NOT PAY a bunch of scrub relievers 13+ mil and instead use some of those kids in the MiLs as your pen or trade them for some other kid who CAN be effective there!

Better to play and keep a pridie in CF who makes league minimum and might start hitting with regular playing time so if he does do well you own him at league minimum for 3 or 4 years saving a ton of money!

It is the LAZY MAN’S way to cut the biggest chunk of salary while the wise man keeps what earns his keep regardless of price and saves money on the players who can be easily be replaced by minimum wage substitutes!

And no one says you need to buy 20+ Mil talent to draw fans and inspire sales!
Beltran is only costing the cards 13 Mil and he will draw fans to see them maybe just not as much as Pujols drew! Half the price but probably not half the drop off in Pujols attendance!

The Yankees spend over 200Mil every year and never once have the steinbrenners had to subsidize or take a loss to do that!
Have you ever considered that?

The problem is not that the Wilpons don’t have money the problem is the team as it is built is not MAKING money!
And cutting reyes even if attendance stays the same does not change that fact!

The solution is to get more people to come! You do that by additioon not subtraction, Improvement not giving up!
Which is really what we are doing, just having a fire sale everything must go which unfortunatly includes the few fans that did show up last year to see them play!

So whatever savings you think you made because reyes is off the books cost you as much if not more in Attendance revenue!
And when we lose money again this year and next how do you solve it with no one left to cut?
We are solving nothing just making things worse!