23
2011
NL East Sans Mets: Armed and Dangerous
An article by 
With some help from Adam Rubin, I ranked the current projected NL East starting rotations according to which ones will be the best in 2012 and also 2013.
2012 NL East Projected Rotations
- Philadelphia Phillies: Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, Joe Blanton, Vance Worley
- Atlanta Braves: Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson, Brandon Beachy, Mike Minor
- Miami Marlins: Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, Ricky Nolasco, Anibal Sanchez, Chris Volstad (with Volstad likely to get displaced by an addition — potentially Joe Saunders, according to ESPN’s Buster Olney)
- Washington Nationals: Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann, Gio Gonzalez, Chien-Ming Wang, John Lannan
- New York Mets: Johan Santana, R.A. Dickey, Jon Niese, Mike Pelfrey, Dillon Gee
Notes
Braves may trade Jurrjens to make room for pitching-phenom Julio Teheran who Baseball America says will be their ace for years and years to come. They also have top prospect RHP Aroydis Vizcaino on the way who is said to have one of the most lethal curves in the minors.
Marlins are still trying to get Matt Garza or Joe Saunders. Nolasco and Sanchez continue to improve, but top prospect Jose Fernandez and his plus fastball is right around the corner.
Mets are reportedly looking to trade 25 year old southpaw Jon Niese, and even if ace Johan comes back and proves healthy, he’ll be gone too. Dickey, 37, may be the best the Mets got right now and they are hoping that Familia and Harvey will be ready by late 2012, and then Wheeler a year after that.
The Nationals say Strasburg is ready to air that arm out and now they added Gio who they will control through 2015. Zimmermann keeps getting better and is a solid top rotation guy, and they still have RHP Alex Meyer and LHP Matt Purke in the cupboard.
The Phillies are gonna get old some say, but Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee show no signs of slowing down, none. Cole Hamels would be an ace on 20 major league teams and Worley might be the best #4 starter in baseball and a #2 on most teams. And we haven’t even mentioned their #1 prospect Trevor May.
2014 NL East Projected Rotations
- Philadelphia Phillies: Cole Hamels, Roy Halladay, Trevor May, Cliff Lee, Vance Worley
- Washington Nationals: Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann, Gio Gonzalez, Matt Purke, Alex Meyers
- Atlanta Braves: Tommy Hanson, Julio Teheran, Jair Jurrjens, Mike Minor, Randall Delgado
- Miami Marlins: Josh Johnson, Ricky Nolasco, Jose Fernandez, Mark Buehrle, Anibal Sanchez
- New York Mets: Matt Harvey, Jeurys Familia, Zack Wheeler, Dillon Gee, Darin Gorski
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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Maybe Daniel Murphy should get a shot at pitching next. Wouldn’t hurt.
Going to be an ugly 2012 season for the Mets. Could be even uglier if the Nats get Fielder. I wonder if they will crack 1 million in home attendance (12,345 fans per game). I can’t imagine this team drawing over 12,000 per game by Memorial Day.
And no one imagined the 1973 and 1969 teams would even sniff the playoffs, nor the 1991 Braves and Twins, and countless other teams in other seasons.
I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed Mets fans if this team plays well.
And a lot of embarassed ones running for holes to hide in when they don’t!
Wasnt it all the saber sites and moneyballers that rooted for Francoeur, Barajas, Santos, etc. to fail? We already know what kind of Mets fans rooted for team to fail. It’s well documented.
Also who was rooting for the team in 2011 and hoping the Mets won a wild card while the moneyballers and sabers hoped for them to fail so they could dismantle the team?
Again, it’s well documents that sabers and moneyballers love the philosophy not the team or the players.
To clarify, the difference between both sides of Mets fans is one side loves the team, the other loves the front office. One side roots for the team, the other roots for the front office. One side wants to win, the other side wants to rebuild every 5 years because it’s fun to talk about draft picks. One side knows that only 1 out of every 5 prospects have major league careers over three years, the other side think prospects are the be-all end-all. That’s the difference as I see them.
I can definitly agree with that last one!
There are some here who are more about the phiolosophy than the team wins…
And funny but I bet more than 75% of them never go to see the games in person anyway!
The ones who buy tickets are the ones who are pissed at ownership!
And the Philosophers are tapping into that angst in order to lure converts!
Well here is the problem.
Next year the Payrolol will be reduced by 40 Mil and attendance will drop meaning they will lose more than 30 Mil.
And thats when it will dwan on them that Wright only makes 15 Mil and cutting him won’t change anything but the lossesgoing up in 2013!
Anf then Harvey and Familia will come up and lose because there is no one left to score runs for them.
And then Ike Davis, Niese and maybe even Duda will be up for trade.
And then Harvey and Familia will be traded as Eyewash to repopulate the Minors for a run 4 or 5 years from the original 4 or 5 years we keep jearing about now!
Billie goes rouind in circles!
Just like the A’s have for 17 years!
Yes Metsie exactly. They have their heads in the clouds as if the Pirates and Royals dont currently have the same plan.
Merry Christmas Metsie, Bayonne, Alex, Baby Al, Kay, Ghost of Omar, Des and even you agee. Happy holidays to the MMO gang too.
Merry Xmas MM and to everyone else!
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well, Maniac!
Isn’t it ironic that all the Holiday wishes came from the so-called heathen like us? lol It was a rough year MMO, and I bet you regret bringing on the saber crowd that turned your site into a war zone as me and Bayonne predicted. Remember the good old days when the talk was all baseball and sharing stories of Seaver, Bud, Agee, etc? And still using batting average, homeruns, wins and saves to discuss good hitters and pitchers? Merry Christmas MMO.
well Wins don’t matter to the saber crowd right? So I guess they were right in that respect
Yeah what is even funnier is WE are the ones being called GRUMPS and DISGRUNTLED!
LOL!
Merry Christmas Maniac
Maniac – it’s funny even during a time where most of us try to find the good, you have the knack of the slam.
Everyone loves the team, and one day all sides will wake up and realize the bottom line is that love for the team, and that it doesn’t have to be one way or the other.
Very short sided to say they love the front office, when that’s the furthest thing from the truth. Everyone wants the best for the team, I hope you can see that again one day. It’s about debate and one day we can restore passionate debate sans the insults.
Only reason to FIND ythe good is when you know it isn’t APPARENT!
You see those of us who know things are bad accept that and don’t have to look for the GOOD to feel good!
We know the team is going in the wrong direction and we accept it!
The arguments are with those who wish to turn over stones to try and make BAD look GOOD and sell it as a great idea!
I don’t have any problems with Sandy making the team a door mat!
It might even work in 10 years time! In fact THAT is the key to winning and dominating a division for a decade!
SUCKING for one and collecting the picks that eventually get you the players you need to stay competitive for a decade!
If someone on the Sandy boosters actually said that then there we=ould hardly be any arguments at all!
The arguments are all about the SELL job on the turd pie you are trying to feed us as IMPROVEMENT!
We have not improved all we did is cut payroll and make the team worse!
And it will work but Sandy will be long gone before that happens!
We will be in last place in the division for a lot longer than many on the Sandy side think!
Only if you think getting worse will eventually make you better (for the reasons I mentioned) can you paint this plan so far as doing good!
But none of you are saying that and neither is Sandy!
We are going to be FUN to watch next year!
YEP! If your a Philies, Marlins, National or Braves fan we sure will be!
Oh Metsie – so sad, when I said find good, it was a generic find good, holiday season, etc…..I wasn’t speaking Mets specific.
If you think Alderson’s goal is to make this team as bad as he possible can, well I give up, you go ahead and believe that. If you want to ignore all the variables involved, go right ahead.
I am paying attention, I know the deal.
Happy Holidays – go out and enjoy friends and family, there is a lot more out there than being miserable about a baseball team.
Well I don’t know what Sandy’s goal is…It would appear to be to purge Salary in an attempt to not lose money and if thats all it is then he is not solving anything the losses will remain because for whatever salary he has cut a reduction in attendance (and hence revenue) will also result meaning he is chasing his tail!
All I was saying is if anyone thinks that what we are doing is helping the LONG TERM SUCCESS then they must think that wholesale sucking is progress and are willing to wait 10 years for that success to show!
And I don’t have a problem with anyone feeling that way just stop telling anyone who will listen that we are getting better when we are actually getting worse!
If you believe being in the basement is progress from being 4th in the Division then I call you out on directional confusion!
If it was stated that we need to get BAD before we can get better I would probably be much more in agreement with that assesment provided they were admitting that we need to take 5 steps back and 5 years of time to see the progress!
Thats not what is being sold here!
We are being sold that this will result in success in two or three years and sorry but thats not going to happen!
And if we are going with the lets suck to et good approach Sandy will not be here to see it and get credit for it when the success finally arrives!
SO why are we even trying to make excuses for him and why is it important for some to make Sandy look,like he is doing good when none of that is apparent and probably until lonbg after he is gone?
Only thing Sandy is improving is the WIlpon’s financial outlook!
The team is getting worse!
Some just need to admit that fact and come to grips with it!
Replacing a .270 hitter with a .240 Hitter is not improvment!
Letting a batting champ go is not HELPING to improve the team just Wilpons ability to get more loans!
I wish you and everyone else (even the Sandy supporters) a happy holidays!
Kay, Merry Christmas. I had to respond to your comment if only to say that if you dont think there are people who actually love the front office you must not be paying attention.
What is well documented is the shortsightedness of some and they assume people are “moneyballers” and sabre goons. No one wants this team dismantled, they want it to be successful for a long time, and risks have to be taken to ensure that. I wish you would see that again, there was a time when you would.
If you don’t want it dismantled then why do you support every move that does precisely that?
You seem to think that reducing salary makes the team successful for a long time?
You would be wrong!
The way to do that is to draft well and keep the good players you have so those draft picks make those kept players better once they come up and become MLB players!
I don’t support every move, but I guess that’s more of your selective reading.
I do not support the ownership of this team, they are the ones driving the $$$$, or lack there of. SA is not cutting payroll as sport, there is no choice, despite how many times you say it and ignore all that is actually going on.
“I do not support the ownership of this team, they are the ones driving the $$$$”
No! Thats where your wrong!
The Wilpons are not the ones who are keeping fans away!
It is the players and performance on the field that is doing that!
You can blame them for not being rich enough to subsidize what attendance will not afford but they are not the reason Attendance has suffered!
The Injuries have a lot more to do with that!
Apathy over not getting the players everyone else seems to be able to afford may be to blame!
But the bottom line is the Wilpons aren’t the REASON the Finances are bad! They are simply not rich enough to SOLVE that problem!
Cutting Payrol is not solving the problem it is merely a bandaid!
They will cut 40-50 Mil from the Payroll this year in hopes of reducing the 70 Mil in losses.
Minus 50 Mil from 70 and tell me how much they make in profit next year even if a miracle happens and they draw the same number of people as they did last year…
Profit -20 Mil….Did cutting Payrol solve the problem? Will we have MORE money or even LESS now that we cut the payroll?
You can ignore that fact but the solution isn’t to spend less the solution is to get MORE people to go!
And you do that by keeping a Reyes and signing someone else to draw more fans!
What we are doing is reducing the losses but your still in the red! Means even less money next year! And we are running out of players to cut to compensate!
Trade Wright who makes 15 Mil and minus that from the 20 Mil of losses!
Still losing 5 Mil so whose next? And how many more people stop going after that happens?
This is the poin those who think we are froced to cut to become solvent miss!
It is not making us solvent it is trading salary for even lower attendance which means the losses contnue until a point where there is no more left to cut and your screwed!
Can’t then go and do what is actually needed to get attendance back up because there is no money to spend and nowhere else to save more!
The solution is to try and maintain attendance while cutting salary! Letting Reyes go does not do that , trading Wright does not do that both REDUCE attendance!
Better to find someone to take Bay even if it means paying most of his salary so you can play someone who might get you some more wins instead and increase attendance!
Better to NOT PAY a bunch of scrub relievers 13+ mil and instead use some of those kids in the MiLs as your pen or trade them for some other kid who CAN be effective there!
Better to play and keep a pridie in CF who makes league minimum and might start hitting with regular playing time so if he does do well you own him at league minimum for 3 or 4 years saving a ton of money!
It is the LAZY MAN’S way to cut the biggest chunk of salary while the wise man keeps what earns his keep regardless of price and saves money on the players who can be easily be replaced by minimum wage substitutes!
And no one says you need to buy 20+ Mil talent to draw fans and inspire sales!
Beltran is only costing the cards 13 Mil and he will draw fans to see them maybe just not as much as Pujols drew! Half the price but probably not half the drop off in Pujols attendance!
The Yankees spend over 200Mil every year and never once have the steinbrenners had to subsidize or take a loss to do that!
Have you ever considered that?
The problem is not that the Wilpons don’t have money the problem is the team as it is built is not MAKING money!
And cutting reyes even if attendance stays the same does not change that fact!
The solution is to get more people to come! You do that by additioon not subtraction, Improvement not giving up!
Which is really what we are doing, just having a fire sale everything must go which unfortunatly includes the few fans that did show up last year to see them play!
So whatever savings you think you made because reyes is off the books cost you as much if not more in Attendance revenue!
And when we lose money again this year and next how do you solve it with no one left to cut?
We are solving nothing just making things worse!
“The Wilpons are not the ones who are keeping fans away!
It is the players and performance on the field that is doing that!”
In two sentences, you dug your own grave so deep you can’t get out. Let’s recap.
“”The Wilpons are not the ones who are keeping fans away!” — No rebuttal needed. This is enough on it’s own.
“It is the players and performance on the field that is doing that!” — So it IS all about winning? What happened to this from yesterday?:
Metsie December 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Which is just PROOF POSITIVE that it is not WINNING that packs people into the stadium…
Guess you didn’t read it well!
“It is the players” Hairston, Harris, Paulino, Pelfrey as our ACE that is the cause!
The performance is based on WHO we got not how they did!
Performance can reduce attendance no one ever said it did not!
But it is the players you have that give you hope they might perform that INCREASES attendance!
Too bad all these things keep going over your head and you read it as you choose to phrase it!
Bottom line the Wilpons didn’t cause this drop in attendance!
Injuries in 2009 caused it (which is where the players and performace because they were not PLAYING comes in)
Not gettying a top Pitcher in 2010 and instead getting the MOR star Jason Bay instead of Halladay caused the drop in attendance as well as the knowledge that Beltran wouldn’t be there!
2011 dropped attendance further DESPITE a .593 Win Pct in July!
Why is that if winning brings the Fans X?
Is is because we shipped two stars away halfway through the season?
Or because we LOST more once they were gone?
And who is to blame for that?
The Wilpons?
Or the GOLDEN BOY?
And how much further does attendance go down now that Reyes is gone?
Nice try though at thinking you caught me in duality!
I have been WAY more consistent than all you Moneyballers who think we are doing the right thing playing it despite all your protests in regards to us actually doing what you BELIEVE is a good plan!
So tell me why if Moneyball is such a good philosophy do you all trip over each other trying to say we aren’t doing that?
and Why must you blame the Wilpons for the financial issues of team that doesn’t draw?
Did they personally pick the Hairston’s and Harris’ no one wanted to see?
Did they tell Sandy to sign Carrasco to a two year 4 Mil deal or Young to a 2 Mil 4 game contract?
THOSE are the types of deals that have hurt attendance not the Reyes’ and Beltrans even the Perez signings that hurt attendance!
Because we drew 4 Mil when we had those guys and turned a profit!
we topped out at 149 Mil salary and lost nothing!
When we reduced salary to 130 we lost 50 Mil and when we reduced it to 118 Mil we lost 70 Mil!
Tell us why did we lose money spending less and why did we draw less and lose more if thats really what you think caused us to lose attendance?
Was it because we spent too much? Or because we spent too LITTLE!
I wonder if we would have lost 70 Mil if we had signed Lee to a 28 Mil contract last year?
Hey, however you choose to justify your double talk is fine with me. I stopped reading after this: “So tell me why if Moneyball is such a good philosophy do you all trip over each other trying to say we aren’t doing that?”
Because “we” aren’t doing that, because it’s not a philosophy. That’s the double talk you consistently find yourself on the short end of. You THINK it’s a philosophy because you don’t understand it and because you want other people to think it is so it can be “proven” a failure.
That’s like you saying Jose Reyes is a terrible athlete because he can’t dunk or beat an OL to the quarterback. He’s a baseball player. He has nothing to do with basketball or football. Much like the way Billy Beane ran the 2002 A’s has nothing to do with the way any GM will run his team in any season.
One you understand that Moneyball has nothing to do with baseball, you’ll understand the game a lot better.
“however you choose to justify your double talk is fine with me”
Its not double talk you just ignore the points and the nuances of difference being made because it suits your excuse making agenda!
You can close your eyes to all of this i really don’t care if you look foolish for buying this plan as a solution.
You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it. You wont label what you think the plan we are using is called but you think it is a good one so tell us all what it is?
And why you think it is better than Moneyball!
The plan is a simple one. It’s called “the owners have no money to infuse into the team, so the cheapest options are the only options.” It’s a very unfotunate plan, but it is better than Moneyball. Know why? Because Moneyball isn’t a plan. Or a philosophy. It’s the title of a book, and now a major motion picture.
And there’s another great example of your lies and double talk. I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan, yet your reply was “You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it.”
That’s exactly my point. Your sneaky way to try and prove something wrong that no one is trying to prove right. Forget about Moneyball. It has no bearing on anything that Mets are doing, have done, or will ever do.
“The plan is a simple one. It’s called “the owners have no money to infuse into the team, so the cheapest options are the only options.” It’s a very unfotunate plan”
Ah so you disagree that Sandy is actually improving the team and nothing he has done is an improvment at all just an unfortunate turn of Events!
Thank you now tell Jessup how wrong he is for saying otherwise!
See how easy it is to admit those of us who are saying Sandy isn’t helping the team only HURTING it because he is doing nothing about reduced attendance nor anything about making a team that will change that are actually correct on this topic?
Welcome to the Dark Side dude!
I will take this response as my christmas gift! LOL
Happy Holidays!
“I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan”
Yeah AFTER I made my post I mean the post times do not lie now do they?
You must have hit the egg nog early or something today!
I am however tempted to go back a few months where we discussed moneyball and how it was a philosophy of picking talent that was cheasp but truth be told none or your denials really is fooling anyone in that regard so no need to really show you up here!
NOW it’s not a philosophy!
Yeah it’s a BOOK about a PHILOSOPHY!
A Philosophy on building a baseball team!
An APPROACH as you will of how to get good results from cheaper players overlooked by the rest of the league!
Which has worked so well in Oakland they wrote a book about it! and Made a movie!
LOL!
Too bad for Oakland more people went to see the movie than showed up at the stadium this year!
XtreemIcon December 24, 2011 at 1:52 pm
“…because it’s not a philosophy.”
Metsie December 24, 2011 at 2:53 pm
“You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it.”
XtreemIcon December 24, 2011 at 3:03 pm
I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan, yet your reply was “You say Moneyball is a good plan but we are not using it.”
Metsie December 24, 2011 at 3:34 pm
“Yeah AFTER I made my post…”
I’d say in this case xtreem looks like he did say it before.
“Ah so you disagree that Sandy is actually improving the team and nothing he has done is an improvment at all just an unfortunate turn of Events!
Thank you now tell Jessup how wrong he is for saying otherwise!”
Sandy is improving the future of this team. 6 months after the season started, he had three prospects in the top 8 in the organization, including the first and third. Right now there’s nothing he can do to make this team win except get lucky. Thats always been the point. I’ve grown bored of reading Jessep eat your breakfast, so I haven’t read everything, but if he ever said that Moneyball was a good plan, then I’d be happy to tell him he’s wrong.
“I just got finished telling you Moneyball is not a philosophy or a plan”
Yeah AFTER I made my post I mean the post times do not lie now do they?”
I can’t decipher your grammar code, but I’ve been saying that forever. Not just in the past 20 minutes.
“I am however tempted to go back a few months where we discussed moneyball and how it was a philosophy of picking talent that was cheasp.”
Please do. I’d love to see what my contribution was to that discussion. All the book Moneyball did was shed light on how one guy exploited a current market weakness. He found cheap talent that way. But that was in that time and that place and has no bearing on any other time and place in baseball, especially now when OBP is no longer undervalued and hasn’t been for quite some time.
MNJ however he said it was not a plan which is where my reply was aimed!
He didn’t say that until AFTER my reply!
Sorry if you misread that but I do wonder why you seem to feel he should need your help!
I didn’t want to embarrass you on Christmas Eve, but you forced my hand. I’ve held that stance for a long time and you continue to move your own goalposts. I even addressed you directly in the second one. And I know there’s more because I know what I say, not what you want people to believe or think I say. Good night.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/12/being-critical-is-easy-to-do-when-its-all-you-want-to-do.html#comments
XtreemIcon December 29, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Shoot, you got the Moneyball aspect before I could. Well done. Moneyball has nothing to do with baseball. Moneyball is a literary term. Some guy wrote a book about Billy Beane’s business practice for one team for eight seasons, and called it “Moneyball.” Now Moneyball has entered into baseball lexicon and all that does it twist opinions to think that anyone who’s ever met Billy Beane “uses Moneyball.” When in fact there’s no such thing as Moneyball when it comes to baseball.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/04/book-review-moneyball-an-incredible-revolutionary-masterpiece.html#comments
(Excerpt due to long comment)
“The problem with this whole entire debate (you included, Metsie) is that you’re all arguing pro or con Moneyball as if it’s a real thing. It’s not. It’s a book. It’s a good book, actually, but it’s a book. Everyone should read it. It takes you behind the scenes, into a draft strategy meeting, into phone calls between GMs about trades or whatnot. Any baseball fan should read it because you get insight to things you never get otherwise.
But that’s where it ends. This silly idea that Moneyball is a “philosophy” is so far from the truth, it sours BOTH sides. The closest thing to right in this whole 9,000-comment post is where Metsie said Moneyball is NOT sabermetrics. That’s right on the money. But Metsie went on to say that Moneyball as a philosophy is what kept Beane from spending money. That’s 100% false.
Everyone who made any point based on the premise that Moneyball was a philosophy was wrong, whether it was pro- or anti-sabermetrics.”
“I do wonder why you seem to feel he should need your help!”
I saw what was a pretty simple misunderstanding on your part as far as timeline was concerned and pointed it out.
Mind you this is something I see many here do yourself included as far as seeing something that appears as an error that someone else said and attempting to correct it.
There is no more to it than that.
Enjoy the Holiday and try not to wonder any more bout this than what it is.
Kay again, you’re not paying attention. Look here goes:
Attention Donal and Xtreem and Jessep:
1. What are your thoughts on advanced metrics?
2. Did you consider Moneyball a great strategy for Beane?
Would love to see this team play well in 2012…however, “well” has to be used in relative terms. In normal cases, “well” would be to play meaningful games in September…in this team’s current situation, “well” would be having under 90 losses. Realistically, what team in the NL is worse than the Mets right now? Maybe the Astros.
R.A. Dickey isn’t a sure thing?
You do have to buy him dinner first.
Wait a minute, where is Pelfrey and Niese from the 2014 rotation for the Mets? You say the Mets have no sure things, but you left them out of the 2014 to make your argument work? Pelfrey and Niese will most likely be the top two starters followed by Gee who also had a great rookie season and then two of Familia/Harvey/Wheeler. I’ll put that up against the Nats, Braves and Marlins any day. Only the Phillies are better than us and that depends if Lee and Halladay are still even good by that time.
I seem to remember someone posting a screed about how silly all the Niese trade rumors are and asking people to stop indulging them…
Nah, must have been my imagination.
What I said and here’s the link:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/can-we-please-stop-reporting-that-sandy-alderson-is-shopping-jon-niese.html
Fact #1 – Sandy Alderson said Jon Niese will be in the 2012 rotation.
Fact #2 – Jon Heyman reported that Sandy Alderson told the A’s that Niese was not available.
By 2014, when Niese becomes arbitration eligible, he’ll be gone because of the other things I keep telling everybody: The Mets Are Broke!
Kind of like what happens in Oakland when their players become arbitration eligible, they get traded. Same philosophy at work here.
Niese is a keeper at $450K.
What about the plot to have them sold by then? Are you telling us MLB took over the Mets so they could have a version of the Oakland A’s in the #1 market in the world? In a city in which a winning team does in fact sell 3 million + tickets a year?
Why do you always tend to ask me questions and then reply to any answers with more questions on a different topic?
You asked me about Niese, I answered you.
Now you want to ask me if I think the team will be sold? That’s the hope.
Now you want me to answer if MLB will have an A’s model in NY after a MLB take over?
I don’t know, but it’s already heading that way unless something or someone stops it from escalating.
This stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. You said Niese will be gone by 2014 because he will be arb eligible and making too much money.
That makes the presumption that the team will be in exactly the same position that it is now (or worse). That or he’s going to be easily replaceable. In which case, we need not discuss him further. But, we don’t want that.
However, you also express your belief that there will be a major change in the organization within the next year. Pretty much by the guiding hand of MLB.
And this is where I don’t follow you. Since even before Selig took over, MLB has been all about TV ratings. They look at every chance to increase their revenue streams and that is their biggest one.
How does it benefit that goal if the NL team in the largest market in the world is unwatchable and constantly dumping its good players?
Keep in mind, this is also the team that is hosting the All Star Game in 2 years. It would be nice if they weren’t a punchline by then.
Don’t you think it is in MLB’s best interest to make the Mets sustainable winners as quickly as possible like the Rangers?
“Why do you always tend to ask me questions and then reply to any answers with more questions on a different topic?”
He’s answer and fact averse!
Hey Joe D you think the Nats would take a chance on Oswalt?
I don’t think so, but you never know. Rizzo believes he now has at least a wild card team, and he probably does. I think if he’s smart, he holds off on any more big ticket items until the season starts and then he can make a trade to address a particular need before the deadline. What do you think?
My thinking is it really comes down to how much Oswalt will want but Rizzo took a shot with Wang and I think he would not be afraid to go after Oswalt especially if there is a lack of interest out there for him allowing them to get him say for 1 year. I mean if healthy even for half a season Oswalt to go along with Strasburg, Gio and Zimmerman is not too bad especially since you don’t know if Strasburg or Wang can pitch. Adding Oswalt you would hope the odds are better in having at least 2 of those 3 out there at any 1 point in the season.
Makes sense. When it was reported Oswalt would take a 1 year deal to rebuild his value I actually figured the Marlins would be interested too.
Off Topic: In keeping with the season here is a parody of an upcoming book that is due out soon.
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l616/MrNorthJersey/RealDirtyMets/grinch-stole-citifield.png
Don’ you think the Nats need to fill their gigantic hole in center field? Werth as a regualr centerfielder? That could be worse than Pagan was last year…..Or did they get someone and i missed it reading about all the big deals the Mets made.
Couple Dumb question: 1) IF Selig got involved (ultimately) in both the Rangers and Dodgers’ financial restructurings / auctions, y won’t he become involved in the revival of the Mets in the Big Apple? 2) Y assume the worst for the Mets in 2014 but not the other teams? Net / net, won’t we have the youngest (potentially) starting rotation in the NL East…if you add the possibility of Gorski, Mejia, Urbina, and others?
i don’t get the overwhelming negativity. So what, the owners have been bad for a decade and are now broke. For the first time in over 30 years, we have a front office that gets the drill: finding, evaluating, and developing baseball talent.
That takes time, but we’ll get there. And 2014 is a good launch date.
oh stop it, like the previous administrations never developed talent? They never thought that developing talent was important? Other Mets GMs never found and developed talent either?
Oh c’mon please stop it. That’s what enrages normal baseball fans around here – what is it with this front office that makes people think that everything they do is new, innovative, and never done before?
Who do u think was GM when Reyes & Wright were signed and drafted? Who do you think was the GM when all those minor league kids you’re talking about are the future of the franchise were signed and drafted? Even back to the 60s, 70s, 80s what do you think the Mets are doing at the minor league level?
- Just because Beltran/Valentin took a called 3rd strike or..
- Just because the Mets choked the last 2 weeks of 07 & 08 or…
- Just because Kenny Rogers threw a ball 4 with the bases loaded or…
- Just because Timo Perez dogged it or Benitez blew a save in 2000
Just because all of that happened the Mets weren’t developing talent? Oh please…
For two fired GM’s who got ran out of town in Toronto and Los Angeles, and someone whose now presided over seven consecutive losing seasons, they sure have pulled the wool over Mets fans eyes. In that regard Sandy, Depo and JP are geniuses.
hey Bayonne, you make good points. But, it’s been a lousy 11 years, alleviated by a couple of highlights in 2006 and up to the collapses in ’07 /’08. But, a couple of things: 1) i’d give former Mets regimes a ‘B’ in their International Draft signings–we do have a gaggle of good-looking prospects, mostly pitching, but also Lagares, Puello, Valdespin, Tejada, Flores, Petry, and Havens and Captain Kirk look good and, of course, Harvey…from the previous regimes, i agree.
But, we were reluctant and laggard bidders in the F/A market for years, often winding up signing the aging star past his prime and failing to discover value in the domestic amateur draft. OR we pursued flashy major trades, like the Santana deal, which due to his injuries gets a ‘C’ in my book.
My point is, that, to me (and maybe i am mistaken), but to me, this is the first Mets F/O dedicated to discovering, evaluating, and developing baseball talent from the farm as their ‘MO’. And i think that’s the best way to develop a perpetual contender, through the farm, supplemented by smart trades and smart F/A signings. Thanks.
Bob L….Why are we loaded with all this young minor league talent???? It has nothing to do with the current gm. Where did they all come from? Check it out. Then come back and thank Minaya for working so hard to 1… build a farm that was in total shambles when he took over and 2…. still tried (altho he failed in the long run) to develop and retain a coiontender…. While this admin is all talk about nothing but development, they lie. They have cut a minor league team and they have reduced international scout staff. And worst of all they have turned the average fan who goes to a game or three a year away by not even trying to put a competitive product on the field.
Maybe Tony Berazard is responsible more than Omar.
hey Ghost, you make good points. i’ve always given Omar credit for his talent evaluation skills. Admittedly, those seemed more prevalent in evaluating International prospects, since the farm seemed bare of solid prospects in the mid-’00′s. Altho, i think Davis, Nieuwenhuis, Niese (?), Thole(?) were drafted under Omar. Looking through most of the draft in the years ’05 – ’09 though, we seemed outflanked by other teams like the Phillies, Red Sox, Braves, Cardinals, Giants, Yankees, in the same class of teams, who drafted far better than we did.
i do think Omar made a few bad trades (trading Nady, the Santana trade gets a ‘C’) and more bad signings (Ollie, Castillo). i won’t diss him on Bay. i wanted pitching, but most of us did not object to Bay getting inked, so we shouldn’t blame Omar for it.
i blame Omar on sloppy management of Tony, not handling ownership well, the bad signings, and the non-focus on strategy…we didn’t have ‘one’.
Currently, we’re broke, shedding payroll, and in a stark rebuild mode. And it is in the here and now, given our dire circumstances, that i support the talent evaluation / development strategy of the current F/O.
For all the hell Omar catches, he still gave us 4 winning seasons out of 6 and it could have been 5 for 6 if nor for historic injuries. Just because the team collapsed in 07 and 08 and we lost game 7 in 06, it doesn’t mean he failed. If Heilman, Glavine and Wright didn’t choke in big spots, we wouldn’t even have Sandy here and the Mets wouldn’t be in such bad shape. And for those who want to blame Beltran in game seven, he struck out 3 times in 27 at-bats in that series and if it wasn’t for his homers in games 2 and 4, there wouldn’t have been a game 7 in the NLCS in 2006.
Maniac: “it doesn’t mean he failed” Then why did YOU want him fired?
You know not everyone blamed Omar for our problems!
I certainly don’t blame Omar for the injuries but you seem to.
I have never said Omar was a terrible talent evaluator nor have I ever disparaged any of his MiLer as ROLE players or not stars!
In fact it is really mostly Sandy supporters who felt that way!
Omar got fired because the Media got tired of the deathwatch on him!
Too many Injuries, Too many controversies between Willie and Tony, and an Ownership who was already hated even BEFORE money problems were the excuse for hoping they sell!
Omar’s biggest mistakes was giving Perez a big contract and allowing the media to goad him into signing jason bay as the thing that was going to save the team!
We didn’t need a big bat and we didn’t get one!
What we needed was another ACE type pitcher to help Santana stop the 3 and 4 game losing streaks! We needed Halladay!
But all the HR centric fans who are now POed at Bay and Wright wanted HR derpy in a triple based speed centric park!
And THAT is really the biggest mistakes Omar made!
lets see how big of a mistake it turns out to be to let Reyes go and trade Beltran who is making roughly 12 Mil per in St Louis!
Wheeler better be all BA Hopes he can be otherwise those could be the two biggest mistakes of Sandy’s tenure here!
Especially if attendance drops off and we lose 50 Mil after cutting 40 Mill of Payroll from a 70 Mil worth of loss!
Cause once Wright is traded the only thing left to cut will be the GM himself!
Now the media’s blame. They “goaded” Minaya into signing Bay. What a joke. Did they “goad” the Mets into signing all the disappointing free agents we have brought in here before Minaya got here?
Was it the media that “goaded” Minaya into trading him to us in the first place? Did the media “goad” Phillips into trading him to San Diego?
Was it the Media that demand we solve every single shortage of talent by signing a free agent? Did the media demand that we give up 2nd round draft choices for Mike Cameron and Cliff Floyd? Give up #1 draft choices for Moises Alou and Vince Coleman too?
Was it the Media that demanded we try a rookie infielder in LF? Was it the media that demanded we leave the OF devoid of any credible talent throughout the entire minor league system since Nelson Cruz was traded?
Was it the media that demanded the best LFer we have developed in the last 25 years be a guy who played a total of 380 Major League games and he was drafted almost 20 years ago.
Yeah that’s the ticket, the media’s to blame.
Yeah we back to talking about Scrooge and the ghost of 25 Years ago past?
Well lets see if Sandy and your method manages a playoff appearance this year the way that awful monkeyball system did you hate so much!
And if not what exactly is this plan good for and how many years of suck is it going take?
Care to say?
STOP, really stop……………..Maniac I remember having great discussion with you. In 08 the bullpen was blowing games a record rate and Omar did NOTHING at the deadline, he never did a thing during the season to make it better, sorry, the whole Wright choked the season is so old and wrong its sickening. Selective memory?
Kay — Some fans keep up the nonsense about ‘choking’. When I asked one advocate of the term to define ‘choking’ so that it would allow verification with empirical data, he came up with no ideas. To simply repeat a player’s AVG or to point to few at bats is a copout and doesn’t define it. Those with the strongest opinions need to make it more than a notion in their minds.
P.S.: I’m sure it can be defined, but expecting a a jackhammer operator to do brain surgery won’t get us there. lol.
“he still gave us 4 winning seasons out of 6 and it could have been 5 for 6 if nor for historic injuries”
Lest we forget all the great hopes all the Sandy guys are pinning their rebound dreams on!
Davis, Duda, Tejada, Harvey, Familia, not to mention the other maybes like Mejia, Havens, Flores and Nehuenuis!
Not only did he make us competitive in a year and stayed competitive for three consecutive years, he managed to get quite a few good prospects BA’s HOPEFUL List aside, that may be a part of the next core of a winning Met franchise if the FO doesn’t screw it up or at least be the trade chips the next FO uses to get the players we will enshrine in the Met HOF 10-20 years from now!
Like Carter, Like Hernandez, Like Darling.
I don’t get the notion that the Mets are hoping that all of their pitching prospects succeed or else. That’s what irate fans and dumb sportswriters say, where DePodesta himself has said exactly the opposite.
It’s trendy now to debase this team, I get the impression that some Mets fans actually enjoy prognosticating how deeply they can devalue this team. Just pile it on for affect.