20
2011
Mets To Shop F-Mart On Ebay
An article by 
Mike Puma of the New York Post is reporting that Fernando Martinez‘s knee isn’t improving, and that the Mets are now considering moving him.
Puma says the Mets are hoping an American League team shows interest in the former Mets #1 prospect, but if there’s no interest they could possibly release him.
Martinez is hitting just .077 (2-for-26) with one RBI in nine games In the Dominican Winter League, and in 131 at-bats in the majors batted .183 career.
And another #1 ranked Mets prospect bites the dust…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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Mr NJ:
92: Hundley
93: Bobby Jones
94: Pulse
95: Pulse
96: Wilson
97: Payton
99: Escobar
00: Escobar
01: Escobar
02: Heilman
03: Reyes
04: Kazmir
05: Milledge
06: Milledge
07: Pelf
08: FMart
09: FMart
10: Mejia
11: Mejia
Good lord, that’s even worse.
Funny how he left out the 2012 #1 prospect .. Zach Wheeler…
How is that funny? I fail to see an angle. Has BA released it’s 2012 top prospects list?
why not go all out??
Again, angle?
Who’s the number 1 prospect of the mets this upcoming year? or who ended up as the #1 prospect this season??? but no, he failed to mention that because his lord sandy got him… he wouldn’t wanna mix anything he does with the failures of the past… a weasel!!!!!!!
Do you know if BA has released their 2012 rankings yet?
Also, there is still no angle….
Like in a “hee hee” way or in a “ha ha” way or even in a “LULZ” way?
BA has yet to release their 2012 rankings. What you’ve seen and read are mid-season rankings which are done on the fly after the draft and not nearly as in-depth as the annual release that comes in January.
Is this the Mets yearly #1 prospect list Jessep? If so I second what TRS said “Good lord, that’s even worse.”
That’s why I don’t get hyped up when someone says a player is the Mets #1 prospect. I look at how that player stands up to every other prospect in MLB especially at his position. When I read people in MLB say player x-y-z is one of the 10,20,30 best prospects in all of baseball that has more weight for me than saying player x-y-z is the Mets best propect.
Bobby Jones was always my least favorite players and he is one of the most productive on that list. That is painful.
Believe it or not since the Wilpon became a full partner with Nelson Doubleday in Nov 1986 Bobby Jones is the best starting pitcher to have made his debut with the Mets.
Pete Schrouk in the next best.
Mike Pelfrey is the 3rd best.
Talking about 25 years here.
Is there some sort of mets and #1 prospects???? i mean, damn… look out zach wheeler…
New York Mets last 25 1st round picks.
2011 Brandon Nimmo (minors) OF
2010 Matt Harvey (minors) RHP
2008 *Ike Davis (minors) 1B
2008 Reese Havens (minors) SS
2008 Bradley Holt (minors) RHP
2005 Mike Pelfrey (minors) RHP
2004 Philip Humber (minors) RHP
2003 Lastings Milledge (minors) OF
2002 Scott Kazmir (minors) LHP
2001 *Aaron Heilman (minors) RHP
2000 *Billy Traber (minors) LHP
1998 Jason Tyner (minors) OF
1997 Geoff Goetz (minors) LHP
1996 Rob Stratton (minors) OF
1995 Ryan Jaroncyk (minors) SS
1994 Paul Wilson (minors) RHP
1994 *Terrence Long (minors) 1B
1993 Kirk Presley (minors) RHP
1992 Preston Wilson (minors) SS
1992 *Chris Roberts (minors) LHP
1991 *Al Shirley (minors) OF
1990 Jeromy Burnitz (minors) OF
1989 Alan Zinter (minors) C
1988 Dave Proctor (minors) RHP
1987 Chris Donnels (minors) 3B
http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=Z16tD
I just realized you wrote #1 prospects and I read it as #1 picks.
Nice list but not that relevant to Fmart though right?
Correct, I just caught it.
Whoops, I retract my comment.
Can I #BlameBeltran?
No not any more. Clearly that time has passed. You must now blame Omar or Sandy when in fact the problem is really the Wilpons refusal to answer to fan demands.
LOL MNJ
What we needed though was a list of Met prospects who showed up on BA’s top list!
But your list is not for naught.
The next time Tagee walks us down those sorry days of yesteryear that list will come in quite handy!
This 20 years of crap
2004 Philip Humber (minors) RHP
2003 Lastings Milledge (minors) OF
2002 Scott Kazmir (minors) LHP
2001 *Aaron Heilman (minors) RHP
2000 *Billy Traber (minors) LHP
1998 Jason Tyner (minors) OF
1997 Geoff Goetz (minors) LHP
1996 Rob Stratton (minors) OF
1995 Ryan Jaroncyk (minors) SS
1994 Paul Wilson (minors) RHP
1994 *Terrence Long (minors) 1B
1993 Kirk Presley (minors) RHP
1992 Preston Wilson (minors) SS
1992 *Chris Roberts (minors) LHP
1991 *Al Shirley (minors) OF
1990 Jeromy Burnitz (minors) OF
1989 Alan Zinter (minors) C
1988 Dave Proctor (minors) RHP
1987 Chris Donnels (minors) 3B
Is what he uses to make what Omar did sound like a bad idea!
But when you look at 2005-2010 you see
2010 Matt Harvey (minors) RHP
2008 *Ike Davis (minors) 1B
2008 Reese Havens (minors) SS
2008 Bradley Holt (minors) RHP
2005 Mike Pelfrey (minors) RHP
Two MLBs (one was used as our Ace last year) One is our big HR threat
Two guys who we are very hopeful will be part of whatever solution Sandy has in mind one of whom is on BA’s list
And one Bust whop was the third choice in a three pick 1st round that Tagee never seems to mention us having when he complains about lost and given up picks!
But I truly would love to see the list of Met Prospects that BA said were top players!
That list will show us just how wishy washy it is to judge our prospects based on what BA predicts and lists!
Is this another “baseball america stinks” post?
Players who were in Top 100 who have had or having legitimate MLB careers since 2007 from 1990 (tough to judge later because players could not be ready)
2007: Dice K, Alex Gordon, Delmon Young, Phil Hughes, Longoria, Upton, Lincecum, McCutch, Chris Young (hitter), Jay Bruce, Tulo, Gallardo, CarGo, Pelf, Garza, Kershaw, Butler, Braun, Tabata, Adam Jones, Colby Rasmus, Ellsbury, Niemann, Pence, Lind, Votto, Loney, Ian Stewart, Dexter Fowler, Buchholz, Ryan Sweeney, John Danks, Jon Sanchez, Erick Aybar, Miguel Montero, Andrus, Jaime Garcia, Gio Gonzalez, Joba, Daniel Bard, Callaspo, Ubaldo, Morrow…
That’s 43 of the Top 100, and I left some off to avoid arguments. Can you show me a list with a better accuracy rate?
I still don’t get why BA is mocked so much by you, you act as though you know of somebody who can do a better job than them? Their job is to alert the public of who is out there based on conversations with baseball insiders.
The fact the Mets are terrible at developing young players is not Baseball America’s fault.
You really are a Pip dude…
43 of the top 100 were good?
Isn’t that really a glass half full way of saying 57% of the list was WRONG?
Tell me when was the last time you took a test got a 43 and the teacher applauded you and let you graduate?
Really dude you are just so bad at hiding the facts you think no one will see!
EVEN if they had a 50% correct rate at best they are nothing more than a coin flip!
Flip a coin on any player on thier list and you have a better chance of finding the talent than they do and THEY use SCOUTS not coins and still get it wrong more often than they get it right!
Metsie your looking at the draft all wrong. It’s not the percentage of players that make it, it’s what the guys who do make it DO when they get up here.
Draft 100 Mike Piazza’s and one makes it, HUGE. That makes up for the 99 that bust and solidifies a position on your team for a decade.
Busts are far more debilitating when the upside is so much less to begin with.
We were not taling about the draft we were talking about baseball Americas ranking system here!
they have a 57% INCORRECT rate yet people put their list up as some banner testament to how good your drafting is!
How many player that do NOT make BA’s top 100 List actually make the MLB, and how many hae careers every bit as good as the guys who DO make the list!
Was Piazza ever on the list when he got taken?
True, but it is also too early to judge some of those as a success long term. Also no fair saying Pelfrey was our ace…
Yes TRS…You are correct about pelfrey…
Which GM relied on him to be our Ace though? LOL
And as for it being too early to tell I most DEFINITLY agree yet I am supposed to have faith in Sandy’s Kid Movement because of those names!
Wheeler is our top listed BA prospect, If it’s too early to say about Harvey then how premature is it to start counting Wheeler?
Maybe you just missed the sarcasm meant in that post!
Me personally no kid is worth squat until he makes it to the MLB and shows he deserves to stay! But then again I’m not the one who pins all our hopes on getting as many Minor Leagers as possible hoping one sticks and turns around the franchise because we got rid of anyone who bats higher than .270!
You are right, unfortunately the Mets had to go with Pelfrey as the opening day starter in Sandy’s first year because Omar had left the cupboard empty and dry and they Wilpons had no grocery money to fill it with… Before you say anything this was just the rebuttal to your comment. I am not saying it is completely true.
This is ridiculous. Not every post has to be about Sandy and Omar.
Omar stopped Sandy from making a trade for an Ace?
Thats news to me!
Only way to get an ace is to buy one?
Why didn’t he draft an ace if he was so desperate for one, he didn’t have Wheeler to fall back on at the time he took Nimmo?
Draft an ace? How do we know he did not? Surely you are not saying draft one and bring him in the same year he was drafted… of course he still would have had to use Pelfrey as the opening day unless you wanted him to use his connections to make the draft occur during spring training?
Could not sign an ace because the Wilpons were broke and had signed off on some terrible contracts that helped that fact.
Could not trade for an ace because they would have had to trade way too many players in an already thin system just to be in the game. Who were you trading for? Matt Garza? Take a look at what that would have taken.
Again, Sandy much like this year was and is stuck to wait it out a little. The way to judge Sandy will be what he does when they do have some flexibility… if that ever occurs.
What would it have taken other than some promising maybe’s and maybe a guy like Niese an Murphy!
You keep flipping your opinions on the kids here!
Are they good enough to make us competitive in two years as many Sandy guys think or are they so bad that you can’t get what you need for them so you CAN be competitive the next two years and beyond?
You are hung up on the word Ace. As if he was expected to be like Verlander. Pelf as most tenured starter was asked to lead the staff since Santana the true Ace was out of commission.
Plus you say you feel no minor leaguer is worth squat yet you talk about a macro of all the prospects you like to list as well.
The Mets and any team that makes themselves a relevant postseason threat can not do so without getting serious contributions from the farm system among other things so for the Mets to right this ship the farm needs to start paying real dividends. The last 25 years have shown what happens when it doesn’t.
Agreed, it’s not just about the 1st rounders or even the draft either. It’s about the entire package. The Mets have just not produced enough home grown talent and have been too reliant on the FA market which produces much more high risk gambles than the farm does. Mess up on Fmart, oh well not much lost. Mess up on Bay, set your organization back 5 years. I am not saying never sign a FA, I am saying the Mets model of solve your problems through the market and forget the development side did not work.
MNJ you really aren’t reading me here…
I used the word ACE sarcastically. Sure he was the one tenured pitcher left to hold the fort but would it have not made sense to go and get one via trade so if and when Santana came back we would have a sure ace, a potential Ace and a solid #3,4 and 5 pitchers to carry the team forward?
As for the Kids my point is they seem to trash anyone we have in favor of anyone we don’t!
And then tell us that keeping reyes is pointless we are going to win with kids they trash as our two year competitive plan forward!
Remember this is all coming from the perspective of a guy who is POed that we are getting rid of KNOWN GOOD players in favor of Kids they at one time said were crap and since Sandy hasn’t gotten rid of them and decided to rely on are the ingredients that are going to make us competitive in two years when they come up!
I am speaking to the duality of the assesments on these kids!
I am not feeling all that great about the kids changing a thing here, We will need much more than that!
Much more than Frank F and Chuck James.
So I am just trying to get some of these “Everything is Hunky Dory” crew to stick to one opinion here!
Either Omar left us squat and he left us horrible kids to work which means much longer than just two years to compete or what he left us was pretty good and when they come up they will make us competitive but lets not give Omar any credit for that!
Lets make it all Sandy’s doing!
You might be mistaking my attemopts to point out THIER duality as duality of my own…
Definitly not the case!
No kid is a guaranteed hope for success in my eyes until he makes thr MLB squad and does well while on it!
Which is why a guy like Niese, Davis, Duda, Gee, Tejada and Murphy are definite plusses in Omar’s book!
Look at when we picked them and compare them to where these other guys who were drafted and do well were taken as well!
We forget that we were picking rather late for three years of Omar’s tenure (when he didn’t give up on that late pick to get an immediate and sure thing All Star) and still despite that he managed to put together a rather impressive if not ALL Star cast of kids people who love Sandy are basing most of their “WE WILL COMPETE IN TWO YEARS” sunshine on!
The thing is you like to lump people into sides and those sides are not an accurate portrayal of the poster at all. In fact most on here that know me know I was a big Omar supporter. I do give him credit for those picks, mostly because they were guys who were under the radar and have at least some of them been able to give league average production.
However, what I did finally realize with Omar and the Mets is that they had really no long-term plan after 2006. I stand by the fact that in the long run 2006 was the worst thing that could have happened. Many of the players had career years and they came very close to heading to the WS. Because of that however, they strayed wildly from their plan of pitching, speed and defense and went with a patch work all in approach that caused them to outspend their revenue, especially after the collapse of 2007 and the injuries that followed. I don’t blame the injuries on Omar, I blame the straying from the plan.
Was my reply in response to you?
If not then who injected you onto one side or the other? Me or You?
It is an argument that has been used here. I mention no names and the replies in arguing against what I said is where the sides are formed, not by me myself!
If you disagree with what I am saying then you in essence are suppoting those the argument was made against.
I argue on points not with people…
LOL, no disagreeing with someone or agreeing with them does not put you in one camp or another.
It does for the purposes of the point being debated now doesn’t it?
YOU pick which side of that argument you wish to be on or believe in…
Not the person you replied to!
No because each individual debate is different. You are making it seem like there is a clear side and it’s either proSandy or antiSandy or proOmar antiOmar with every debate. It’s not that simple.
And once you enter one you pick a side and comment!
Get over it kid you picked your fight and side of it and now you have to live with those statements and that decision!
If you didn’t want to be lumped into one side or another of a particular debate then you should have read instead of spoken!
Once you go on record supporting one side or the other your committed to that side of the argument until you tretract it and change your position!
This is the concept of DEBATE! Get with it already!
“If you didn’t want to be lumped into one side or another of a particular debate then you should have read instead of spoken!”
There are no sides unless one wishes to make it seem there is. There is just one opinion vs another opinion.
This is not a competition with two sides looking to see who wins. This is a discussion of differing points of view on a number of issues related to one thing. The Mets and baseball overall.
As soon as it is turned us my side vs your side it no longer turns into a discussion but rather a competition and I for one am not trying to compete with anyone. I am just trying to engage in dialogue and possibly learn something along the way.
2006 was more like an illusion than anything else and a portend of things to come.
Back in 2006 all 4 teams we compete against in the NL East were at low tide and they comprise almost half of the schedule.
Philly didn’t get above .500 for good until August 20th.
Braves weren’t above .500 at any point after June 3rd.
Marlins started out 12-31. They were out of it by May after yet another sell off.
Washington was never .500
It doesn’t take a genius to realize that when 4 out of 5 horses in the race are really slow the average horse has an great chance to win as long he doesn’t stumble.
It is almost hard to understand how all four of our competitors in the NL (l)east that year could have all been so bad at the same time, I mean they were all playing each other, as well as us for half their schedule. That just shows how truly crummy they all were.
One could really say that about the entire NL in 2006 as well. In a normal year either 3 or 4 teams win 90 or more games in the NL. 2006 only one team did, us. LA and SD won 88 and St. Louis 83. There was really only one good team in the entire league that year and that was us, but how good? Really good or just the best of a bad lot? I’d say the later because the following year we came back to earth a little and everyone else got a little better.
As for the omen of things to come one need look no further than Pedro breaking down at the end of the season, El-Duque breaking down on the eve of the playoffs and Trachsel breaking down IN the playoffs.
If that wasn’t a harbinger of things to come I don’t know what would ever be. All the signs were there, we just chose to ignore them, spurred on by the media the ever hopeful, gullible, naive and impressionable Met Fan convinced that this house of cards just needed to have a couple of window boxes screwed in and topped off with a few patunia’s and we were set for a decade.
Well they were right about one thing. We’re set for a decade all right. A decade of sub .500 ball. Well at least we got 3 of them out of the way, only seven more to go.
Monkeyball anyone? The gift that keeps giving. Giving us the occasional glimpse at the peak while sentencing us to 7 years hard labor until the next one and no amount of aging dinasaures can change that.
I suppose it never occurred to you the reason why their records were so bad was because we were beating them then as opposed to now where their record includes them beating us and winning every series!
2006
11-7 vs Atlanta
11-8 Vs Phillies
11-8 Vs Marlins
12-6 vs Nationals
2007
9-9 vs Atl
6-12 vs Phils
11-7 vs Marlins
9-9 vs Wash
You judge them as being horrible via their record and forget who it was that helped them TO that record!
Here is our 2006 Vs table
Opponent
Split W L RS RA WP
ARI 6 1 48 23 .857
ATL 11 7 81 95 .611
BAL 1 2 14 14 .333
BOS 0 3 8 23 .000
CHC 3 3 35 35 .500
CIN 4 3 38 26 .571
COL 5 1 40 23 .833
FLA 11 8 98 88 .579
HOU 4 2 28 22 .667
LAD 4 3 29 32 .571
MIL 3 3 35 37 .500
NYY 3 3 30 35 .500
PHI 11 8 105 92 .579
PIT 5 4 35 36 .556
SDP 5 2 34 20 .714
SFG 3 3 28 29 .500
STL 4 2 35 27 .667
TOR 2 1 17 12 .667
WSN 12 6 96 62 .667
We had a winning record vs everyone except Boston and Balt
and we tied with the Giants, Yankees and Brewers
Get one via trade? One what, an ace? Easier said than done.
“they seem to trash anyone we have in favor of anyone we don’t!” Who is they?
I see potentially good prospects but again until these kids prove themselves that is all they are.
“And then tell us that keeping reyes is pointless”
Again who is they? Fans, Front office? If it is fans that is their opinion.
If it is the front office I don’t ever recall seeing them say that.
“Remember this is all coming from the perspective of a guy who is POed that we are getting rid of KNOWN GOOD players in favor of Kids they at one time said were crap”
Again who is they? As far as I am concerned you know my thoughts by now on the moves that been made so I won’t waste time repeating them again.
“So I am just trying to get some of these “Everything is Hunky Dory” crew to stick to one opinion here!” I think you may be better off being more direct and speak directly to who your refering to cause this they, they, they is much too vague in my opinion.
“Either Omar left us squat and he left us horrible kids to work which means much longer than just two years to compete or what he left us was pretty good and when they come up they will make us competitive but lets not give Omar any credit for that!
Lets make it all Sandy’s doing!” Well again I can only speak for myself but as you know I have said If and when these kids do make real contributions I have no prob giving the former GM props
but that has yet to happen. The prospects have promise so you have to recognize that is all it is promise nothing more.
“No kid is a guaranteed hope for success in my eyes until he makes thr MLB squad and does well while on it!” Exactly which is why I only say the kids have promise/potential.
“Which is why a guy like Niese, Davis, Duda, Gee, Tejada and Murphy are definite plusses in Omar’s book!” Davis, Duda have 1 year under their belt for me it’s too early to say what they will be.
Niese, Gee and Murphy are OK for now at best. Niese shows if he can get it together can be pretty good but have yet to do so. Murphy can hit I will giive him that but has no position. Gee had a good 2011 but I will need to see him put back2back years to see
if he has the goods or was it a one year thing. Pluses as you say but not high ones yet as far as I am concerned.
“We forget that we were picking rather late for three years of Omar’s tenure…” If you want to use that excuse you can but that doesn’t fly with me one bit for the poor quality of overall output from 6 years as GM.
Well They changes depending on what suits them that day!
THEY will say we can;t make trades because our Kids suck then go on and say how we will be competitive in two years with all those kids yesterday they said sucked!
They most usually includes Jessup who has seemingly (for reasons unknown) abandoned all the things I thought he believed and we could agree on so that he can go on and praise every move Sandy has made! Who one minute says we are going in the right direction and will be competitive in the future yet when you discuss the kids who will do that one on one he says we can’t trade them because they are worthless!
Yet counting on them for our competitive fortunes two years from now is the way to go!
OK well don’t take this the wrong way but I think it would be better that if you are talking about jessep you should say his name. Cause at least I can know who your talking about.
I mean nothing against jessep but if I am talking to you about what you say and you to me about what I say I don’t see how he plays any part into our conversation. I much rather focus on what you say or feel specifically and visa versa rather than interject the opinions of jessep into our discussions in a vague format.
Well MNJ if I was referring to you I would have used the word YOU!
And TRS Jessup does have his parrots who jump to whatever position he fancies that day!
Those Parraots constitute a large part of that ‘THEY!”
Who?
Also, couldn’t the same be said of you, Bayonne and Alex?
“Well MNJ if I was referring to you I would have used the word YOU!”
You misunderstood. I know you was not referring to me the point is that if you and I are discussing our views with each other then interjecting what others feel serves little purpose especially if you are not going to refer to them directly.
If I am talking to you about what you say and you talking to me about what I say than what jesssep, T Agee or TRS has to to say has no bearing on what I am discussing with what you said nor you what I said and if they happen to do have some bearing then it is better to say who we are speaking specifically about than being vague.
I know Jessup comments a lot but how is he now a “They”? One person can’t make you formulate an entire opinion can they?
I answered that already you need to keep up.
And you will note that while Alex and bayonne may agree with me from time to time they don’t follow EVERY one of my posts with backup.
Sometimes the agree with me and sometimes they do not!
But jessup has a much more loyal following that pretty much parrots everything!
Thats not a knock on Jessup by the way, more or less an indictment of the parrots not anything Jessup is doing!
Pelfrey was the Wilpon’s fault as Minaya was forced to reach down with his top pick and take Pelfrey who was more signable and wouldn’t exceed slotting. In fact we’ll never know how much better Minaya would have drafted in the higher rounds without that restriction placed on him. He finally got to go over slot in his last year and he netted Matt Harvey.
the other factor that often gets overlooked is lack of palyer development. We really don’t know how many guys could have turned out better if the player development system was better, or if they did not rush some guys.
Pelf is probably a good example. Really seemed rushed. Would he have been more successful if he spent another year intheminors, with top-shelf coaches, working on his approach, adding the missing pitch, etc.?
Yes development plays a huge role. Drafting good talent is just the half of it, development and staying healthy completes the puzzle. Pelfrey is a bad example of getting rushed though because Boras forced the Mets to sign him to a split contract I believe which usually cause most major league teams to rush these types of players. You saw that with many of the players from that draft class and the one before. Most teams wont sign like deals anymore and they’ve become rarer and rarer as agents learned it hurt the longterm value of the under developed players.
The new bargaining agreements bans draftees from signing major league contracts. The won’t be anymore Pelfrey’s rushed because they are hogging the 40 man.
Agreed on the ownership sticking to slotting guidelines but that being said I can’t excuse the overall output of the farm system over 6 years.
Keep in mind Pelfrey is not a player i would rave about, Holt, Havens, Harvey have yet to show what they can be in MLB and Ike has played all of 1 season.
The line about Pelfrey was meant to be sarcastic MNJ, I wouldn’t rave about any of them just yet. I just wanted to point out that many are putting hopes on kids who have not proved anything yet and half the kids they are using to say things are ok are all picked under Omar!
WHo if you listen to some played Monkeyball and ruined the ability of this franchise to rebuild!
Well actually a lot of Omar’s actions DID make it difficult for the Mets to have financial flexibilty and forced a reliance on FA market too much. Did it appear that at the end of his tenure they were starting to figure out that signing the big name every year does not make you a winner? Yeah but by then it was way too late.
no they didn’t, otherwise we wouldn’t have Bay!
Agreed, I said starting… LOL.
“Did it appear that at the end of his tenure they were starting to figure out that signing the big name every year does not make you a winner? ”
One way of interpreting it then there is this…
Omar had rebuilt his Minors with:
Davis, Duda, Murphy, Tejada, Dee, Harvey, Familia, Havens, Flores, Niehuenwies, Mejia and would have brought them up this year or next (just as Sandy did and plans to) and didn’t need to sign big FAs as he was merely going to resign Reyes and Wright and let Bay and Santana Expire when they were done!
You forget that Omar was under contract until the end of THIS season!
If he had not been fired he would have been making the decisions Sandy made instead!
Would he have done better? I don’t know and really don’t care.
But I bet the decision making would have been much different on the Reyes front and Beltran would probably still be traded but maybe for more than we got. K-Rod might have been renegotiated or extended for roughly what we are paying our closer by committee we just bought and we would not be looking at 5 years before there is reason to go see them as is being sold now!
Would it work, again I can’t say and really don’t care to discuss if it would (not productive)
But to say he stopped buying because it didn’t work is just a flat out lie as it DID work and got you 3 meaningful septembers and one playoff appearance within a year of his taking over!
And all the kids the Sandy crowd is counting on to make us competitive would have been there still if Omar was here instead!
Maybe not Wheeler but then again maybe Wheeler plus something else!
And who can say who Omar would have taken in last year’s draft? Untill Nimmo does something in the MLB (and even then) you never know if Omar would have picked someone who would have done better!
Not worth discussing really just saying all these IFs and MAYBES we are all counting on apply to Omar as much as they do for Sandy, the only difference is we will be able to see the result of what Sandy will do at some point!
The only difference between the Paul Wilson, Phil Humber, Lasting Milledge and Preston Wilsons compared to Harvey, Familia, Havens, Flores, Niehuenwies for example is that the former have already shown themselves to be busts for the Mets while the latter has yet to show if they will join that group.
Until they actually prove themselves to be what many project there is no way to know still if they will join that list 5-10 years from now.
and before someone chimes in with what about wheeler and Nimmo? Yes add them to the list as well.
Agreed! Which is why all these folks attemtping to get everyone onto the “Love Sandy ” badwagon need to either give Omar credit for what they think is going to make us competitive in the next two years or come to grips with the fact that it may not happen until 2016 or beyond when Santana and bay come off the books and they can go back to BUYING someone who can help them win instead of relying on Maybe’s who may never be!
I think the Kids we have, have the POTENTIAL to be good but the POTENTIAL is still a risk they will never be!
And to build your entire hopes of competing in the next two years on them reaching their potential is a bigger risk than Reyes missing the last two years on a 6 year 100 Mil contract!
Even if the kids are everything we hope ( Harvey a Halladay) How many years before Halladay became Halladay?
Yet we are led to believe by the “LOVE SANDY” crowd that two years is all it’s going to take without a guy like Reyes or Beltran!
For the Record – I have no problems if they wish to build from within but I’m not stupid enough to think that Two years is all it’s going to take. It will take 8-10 years as it does for just about any team that does it and it will require being willing to pay the freight on keeping the EARLY homegrown success long enough for the remaining kids who wre drafted later to make a difference!
While I agree, the question is how many years has this already been going on? Also, I am not going around saying that the Mets will magically win the division in two years either. I do have hopes that they will be in better position in two years and I do think they are taking steps for that to become reality.
I am a Mets fan that has confidence the current GM is making moves that are for the better of the team. You believe otherwise. What I see is a ton of debate for both sides of the spectrum. Many are legit concerns on both sides and others are just are about less than that.
What I don’t get is this feeling that like vampires people are trying to turn you into loving anyone.
Pray tell MNJ Which moves gove you that confidence?
Wheeler is about the best move made so far but after that what is there?
The Pagan Trade or the K-Rod trade, which enhances the confidence of the Wheeler deal?
Which of the FA Signings we have made enhances that?
To me confidence is earned not given.
I won’t praise a move before it proves out to be an improvement and for the ones I have trashed I base it on the Deep Statistical analysis those moves were supposed to be based on!
You already know the answer to the question. Why ask?
I know you disagree with them but that is your opinion and I am fine with that but it is not mine.
Your view on the moves are well documented I understand your reasoning behind them we just have differing takes on them.
It did not work because that system is not sustainable. Sure it gave you a good 3 years but broke the franchise in the process by outspending their revenue.
Also, while those guys you listed are hopefully going to provide that spark, how many of them were highly touted prospects?
Got more than we got for Beltran? Seriously? Almost every talking head in baseball praised the Mets for holding out and getting a guy that most said they had no shot in hell of getting. Think about it, for a rental with bad knees you got a guy who instantly came in and was ranked your best prospect. What more did you want? Quantity instead of quality?
Krod on an extension? Who the hell would have wanted that anyway? Krod was forced to accept arbitration to be a setup guy because his market was so poor.
Again, this is not a Sandy vs Omar debate. You can’t do that debate until Sandy has had the same amount of time as Omar or at least until he has left the building. Otherwise it’s pointless.
Metsie, i agree, that is not as bad considering some GM’s failed to even draft an ML’er. with that being said it has been awful to say the list, but omar’s draft class has been imo the best one i’ve seen in the last 20 years.. brad holt can still make it (as a reliever) and the jury still out on harvey, but he can end up having 5 guys who made the Majors and somehow contributed to the team or a team.
Better, but you can’t say great yet. Hopefully this year will allow that.
What is the point of this list? To try and show how bad BA does at ranking players? Because I can’t find a BA rank for 8 of them. Only 7 hit top 50. Only 3 made it to the top 10.
2004 Philip Humber (minors) RHP 2005 #50 2006 unranked 2007 #73
2003 Lastings Milledge (minors) OF 2004 #86 2005 #11 2006 #9
2002 Scott Kazmir (minors) LHP 2003 #11 2004 #12 2005 #7
2001 *Aaron Heilman (minors) RHP 2002 #78 2003 #45
2000 *Billy Traber (minors) LHP …..I can’t even find a ranking for him
1998 Jason Tyner (minors) OF ditto
1997 Geoff Goetz (minors) LHP 1998 #96…lofty praise indeed
1996 Rob Stratton (minors) OF can’t find a rank
1995 Ryan Jaroncyk (minors) SS ditto
1994 Paul Wilson (minors) RHP Paul Wilson 1995 #16 1996 #2
1994 *Terrence Long (minors) 1B 1997 #63
1993 Kirk Presley (minors) RHP 1994 #59
1992 Preston Wilson (minors) SS 1993 #93 1994 #43 1996 #94 1998 #70
1992 *Chris Roberts (minors) LHP can’t find a rank
1991 *Al Shirley (minors) OF 1993 #74
1990 Jeromy Burnitz (minors) OF 1992 #50 1996 #61
1989 Alan Zinter (minors) C no rank found
1988 Dave Proctor (minors) RHP no rank found
1987 Chris Donnels (minors) 3B no rank found
Or are you pointing out bad draft picks? But then, why is Preston Wilson there? He had a decent career.
What is the link tying all of these players together other than they all were drafted by the Mets?
One day and I don’t know when, you will catch up to the world and it’s conversations and you will find yourself HORRIFIED at the realization!
No, you really never say what you think you are saying. You think you busted t agee by pointing out bad draft picks of previous regimes, when in fact, agee has been critical of the Mets drafting for those regimes as well as Minaya. Seriously, get him ranting about Philips some time.
And you mentioned how bad BA does at ranking players when some of the players you list weren’t even ranked.
Seriously, what is that list for?
Thank you for making my point Metsie. Some of the work that Omar did was really good. He just didn’t do anywhere near what was necessary here considering the state of the farm when he arrived.
He got us from about last to somewhere in the middle but where are our all around, well developed everyday players at the upper level of the farm?
Minaya spent 6 1st or 2nd round draft choices on relief pitchers for crying out loud and we’re still looking around every year for “who can we get” for the bullpen.
Not one single 1st, 2nd or 3rd round pick on a catcher and only one on an OFer (Javier Rodriguez) but SIX of them on relief pitchers. Think this alone might be a big reason we have no catcher or OFers on the way up? Niuwenhauss and Lagares are just as likely to be 4th and 5th OFers on a normal team as starters. Here they would be starters like Thole is. Puello could be much more but he’s still 3 years away. Ratliff a shock but still the type of thing that happens to every organization. Niewenhauss is also already 25. Den Deker is Jason Pridie. In fact all the guys Omar drafted are really the type more likely to at least make it up here but not really make a big impact on both sides of the ball. Having guys that just make it up here and then having to go find the talent elsewhere is just the same old **** we’ve been doing every since Cashen moved on.
Even guys in later rounds who did make it up here did so as much because of there being no one else as their own ability and then played at positions they were expected to learn on the job.
Every organization has guys like Fern, Havens, Holt, Kunz, Pena, Rustich, Niessen, Clyne that stall, get hurt or bust but only our organization is actually counting on just one guy to come through at every position and then when they don’t……. It’s right back to the old “who can we get” every off season for 8-12 spots on the 40.
With no catcher and only one highly regarded OFer in the system did it make any sense to hand over a #1 pick for a 40 year old OFer? Especially when you could have just waited a week to sign him and A) Not had to give up your draft choice and B) been able to protect Jesus Flores from the rule 5 draft. Incidentally a player we were linked to last week in a trade rumor for Jon Niese was picked 8 spots behind that draft choice we gave away. Would we have picked D’anaurd who knows but at least we would have had a chance to and we almost certainly wouldn’t have lost Flores so Flores/Thole would have been something you could fell good with. Not great but a decent job. Flores/Thole/D’Anaurd? That would be a great job at catcher with the added bonus of D’Anaurd catching Familia and Harvey for a couple years in the minors. Thole on his own? Please.
With no catcher in the organization (except the guy some people were crowing over last year) and no credible OFer’s at any level of the minor leagues does it make any sense to trade away TWO #1 picks for a designated hitter?
Take away the pure luck of Atlanta signing Tommy Glavine and we don’t get Havens and Holt and while one is questionable from a health and development standpoint and the other questionable from a translation standpoint the fact remains that with them we have a shot to get something good, without we have two less guys with at least the talent to play well up here.
Let’s not even discuss the lousy development. Pelfrey STILL has no out pitch vs. LH hitters. Parnell is as predictable as it gets. Both have two pitches. Both have been up here for years. Murphy and Duda fit into where ever the hole was they couldn’t fill from outside. Thole spent almost as much time learning 1B as catcher and it shows. Niese and Gee spent a little more time and I think it shows in their poise as opposed to Pelfrey and Parnell but I don’t pretend to understand pitchers and that could just be their makeups. Kunz was a guy drafted out of need. A college relief pitcher for God sakes. when this team had so many freaking holes everywhere and no depth, no talented players anywhere near the Majors. Zippo. And then he was rushed up here in his first professional season into a pennant race.
Very strange method of development.
The meat of Omar’s farm is Mejia, Familia, Harvey, Davis, Two IFA’s and two #1 picks, exactly the picks he was giving away left and right or not taking back when he had a chance.
So we got a bunch of one dimensional players and some guys who stalled through injury or development issues. So does every team. Every team also has a Niese and a Davis they developed in the last five years and a Familia at some level of their system. Considering where we were when Omar took over, we needed to a lot better than 1 Harvey and 1 Mejia more than everyone else just to narrow the gap.
In 5 years and no top 5 picks to work with you expected him to get all those players the Phillies and Brake did with 6 top 5 picks is that it?
Omar should have made us one of the worst teams in baseball in order to be called a good GM?
Really dude thats the point your trying to make here?
Again, the “only crappy teams can draft well” fallacy. How many times does that need to get shot down?
How come the Yankees and Red Sox can have good minor league systems? How does having a low spot in the draft prevent you from acquiring IFAs?
Only in Metsie’s world would Mike Pelfrey be “our ace.”
You mean in Sandy’s world! I didn’t make him the Ace, Sandy did
MNJ, thanks for this, wanna know the most atonishing thing about that list?? of all the 1st round picks we got out of HS, 7 of them didn’t even make the big show, and the ones that did were complete busts.. overall that list of 1st rounders is just AWFUL!!!!
Agreed Mets 1st round production out of the draft has been piss poor last 25 years.
HS players do bust more often than college players for the same reason that IFA’s bust more often. Their being evaluated at a much younger age but the fact remains that the HS player talented enough to be considered in the 1st or 2nd round who does hit, hits a lot bigger than the college player who makes it.
Who are the most memorable Mets over the last 25 years. Mookie, Dykstra, Alfonzo, Piazza, Leiter, Reyes, Wright, Straw, Carter, Keith, Gooden, Sid All HS kids. Sure there are the Darlings, Davis, Harvey’s ect but the vast majority of the best players, especially position players come right of HS and many of the pitchers do too because of less wear and tear on them in college.
Phillip Humber for example had two decisions in 3 days a couple of times at Rice University. Two other guys on that staff were high draft choices too. Townsend and Wade. So far one had some success, one 8 years after being drafted has had a little and one’s been out of the pro’s for a while.
It’s not how many make it up here. It’s how big they make it that matters. Remember a team is 25 guys. All you need to to is accumulate 25 well rounded, well developed top talents over a 5 year period and then fill in with 3 guys on the way up behind them every year.
Mix in some trades, a FA or two, a rule 5 or non tender and you can have a very talented young team for years to come but if the guys you do draft that make it are of the Aaron Heilman sort or good on only one side of the ball then you have to go outside for your talent. That’s very risky economically and baseball wise.
Your making the picks anyway. Why not pick the guys who if they make it, make it the biggest?
Just for affect note where they picked compared to where we picked over those years
2011 NONE —
2010 Jesse Biddle, LHP 27
2009 Kelly Dugan, CF 75
2008 Anthony Hewitt, SS 24
2007 Joseph Savery, LHP 19
2006 Kyle Drabek, RHP 18
2005 NONE —
2004 Gregory Golson, cf 21
2003 Timothy Moss, 2b 85
2002 Cole Hamels, rhp 17
2001 Gavin Floyd, rhp 4
2000 Chase Utley, 2b 15
1999 Brett Myers, rhp 12
1998 Pat Burrell, 3b 1
1997 J.D. Drew, of 2
1996 Adam Eaton, rhp 11
1995 Reggie Taylor, of 14
1995 Dave Coggin, rhp 30
1994 Carlton Loewer, rhp 23
1993 Wayne Gomes, rhp 4
1992 Chad McConnell, of 13
1991 Tyler Green, rhp 10
1990 Mike Lieberthal, c 3
1989 Jeff Jackson, of 4
1988 Pat Combs, lhp 11
1987 NONE —
1986 Brad Brink, rhp 7
1985 Trey McCall, c 16
And then this
2011 Sean Gilmartin, LHP 28
2010 NONE —
2009 Michael Minor, LHP 7
2008 Brett DeVall, LHP 40
2007 Jason Heyward, OF 14
2006 John Johnson, OF 24
2005 NONE —
2004 NONE —
2003 Luis Atilano, rhp 35
2002 Jeff Francoeur, of 23
2001 Joseph McBride, lhp 24
2001 Joshua Burrus, ss 29
2000 Adam Wainwright, rhp 29
2000 Scott R Thorman, 3b 30
1999 NONE —
1998 NONE —
1997 Troy Cameron, ss 29
1996 A.J. Zapp, 1b 27
1996 Jason Marquis, rhp 35
1995 Chad Hutchinson, rhp 26
1994 Jacob Shumate, rhp 27
1993 NONE —
1992 Jamie Arnold, rhp 21
1991 Mike Kelly, of 2
1990 Chipper Jones, ss 1
1989 Tyler Houston, c 2
1988 Steve Avery, lhp 3
1987 Derek Lilliquist, lhp 6
1986 Kent Mercker, lhp 5
This still doesn’t excuse how poorly the Mets have done in the draft the last 25 years.
Actually it just provides evidence on how badly the Mets have done in the draft during that time. Look at how many franchise players or guys who were traded then went on to be franchise guys are on those list?
Look at just the Braves,
Minor, Heyward, Wainwright, Marquis, Frenchy, Chipper, Avery, Mercker.
Phillies
Drabek, Hamels, Floyd, Utley, Burrell, Drew…
Mets
Who would you pick as the top 5?
Drabek Picked 18th Mets got Wagner for Drabek! How many All Star games has Drabek been in pray tell?
Hamels Picked 17th Mets took Kazmir 15th Then traded him for Zambrano!
Gavin Floyd Picked 4th! We got Heilman at the 18th Pick! Wow 4th picked player a better pick than an 18th? Who would have bet on that?
Utley picked 15th one pick before we could take him and got Traber instead. Could we have taken Utley that year if we wanted to?
Burrel Picked 1st Overall We picked 21st how badly we picked here compared to the scrub Phillies who were the worst team in baseball!
JD Drew Picked 2nd Overall, We picked 6th Got Goetz yep a bad pick Guess who picked him?
The Guy Tagee thinks was a good GM McIlvane!
Lets move onto the Braves who were much better than the Phillies for sure but still it did not keep them ABOVE the phillies in the Division race has it?
Minor taken 7th Overall We got K-Rod instead of a pick which would have been a 24th pick
Heyward taken 14th We gave up our 29th pick for Alou Which netted Wendel Fairley Oh what he would have done for us! The Horror the Horror! Hey how did Heyward do last year pray tell?
Wainwright Picked 29th 11 years ago, 6 years gap but still a good pick the only All Star picked after Utley who we could not take and took Traber the pick after Utley went.
Marquis picked supplemental after taking AJ ZAPP! ZAPP?!??!??! so much for how smart they were if they thought Zapp was better than Marquis no? McIlvane (Tags Hero) took Stratton with the 13th pick.
Frenchy (This really isn’t the place to call Frenchy a good player considering his treatment by the same guys who like Sandy but anyway lets look) Taken 23rd the year we took Kazmir!
Jones 1st overall pick Yeah if you mess up that pick your no genius! We took Burnitz with the 17th pick Not a bad pick consisering where we picked he made the All Star team and only Mussina and White were picked after him.
Avery taken 3rd overall, See Chipper! We picked 21st that year! Any wonder why they had a better pick than us?
Mercker picked 5th Overall We picked 21st and got Lee May Jr.
Now lets tally up shall we?
Phillies 3 of the 6 you listed were top 10 (top 5 Even) picks in the draft. One other pick taken one pick before us
Braves 3 of the 8 you listed were top 5, (4 of the 8 were top 10) They were much better than us but most of their best picks were not made at the same time Omar was picking.
Omar gave up three first rounders and the Mets as a whole gave up 4 1st rounders in 25 years (Something Tag likes to point as the reason for our draft failures and gained two in Comp (The team gained 4 Comps during the 25 year timeframe)
the Phillies gave up 3 in that same timeframe gained 1 as comp.
Braves gave up 6 1st rouders in that time frame, gained 2 in Comp which puts the Mets right between the two teams Tagee likes to say are the smart bunch as far as drafting goes when the truth is the reason they got what they got was they picked in the top 5-10 for more than HALF of the picks they hit on becuase they sucked even worse than us during those times.
We had 7 Top 10 Picks over the last 25 years Only two of them top 5 (Wilson and Humber.)
Phillies had the same 7 top 10 Picks and 6 of them were top 5 Selections
Braves had the same 7 Top 10 Picks and again 6 of them were top 5 Selections
Those top 5s coincide with the IMMENSE SUCKAGE of those teams (Braves in the late 80s and Phillies from the 80s and 90′s (1993 excepted)
So as I have said all along in response to Tag and all the BUILD FROM WITHINers…
I agree building from within can make for a very good franchise!
But smarts has much less to do with the proof offered of such a plan.
What made that plan work and make their GMs look so smart were all those top 5 and top 10 picks SUCKING BIG TIME gave them!
And with those top picks YES you can build a formidable team from within…
Are you prepared to suck that bad and that long to see this plan be implemented and succeed?
Is 25 years of Mets not winning a WS due to bad drafting bad GMs spending money or is it that they never sucked bad enough to get TO the talent that was taken before them by the teams who sucked more than they did and got first chance at them?
So wait are you actually arguing that the Mets did well with what they had or that they had better drafts during that time than the Braves or Phillies? Good lord, that’s not even worth my time.
RIF Reading is fundamental!
Phillies and Braves got better players because THEY SUCKED WHOLESALE when they took them and got to pick from the cream of the crop!
The Mets did not suck as bad as them, picked after them and could not get the same talent they could because they did not have the pick position to get them!
What part of that can’t you deal with?
The argument against or the fact that the Phillies and Braves got what they got in the top 10 and top 5 of the draft where the mets only had two chances at a top 5 pick over the same course of history!
The Braves have such a much better farm than we do right now and that’s not only after graduating about 10 guys who would immediately displace anyone on our roster but picking behind us 20 out of the last 23 drafts.
What’s your reasoning for this? Pray tell.
And you base this supposed fact on what exactly?
BA’s 57% failure list again?
If their MiL is better than ours it is only because we promoted the best guys from our MiLs last year because we traded All Stars away!
We traded all stars away but the Braves promoted guys from their minor leagues who MADE the All Star team.
If that doesn’t illustrate the difference in our farm systems than I just can’t help you.
And just exactly how and when did the Braves suck?
They went to the playoffs 14 years out of 15, missed 4 years with win totals of 79, 84, 72, 86 and then went back to the playoffs with 91.
That’s only 2 sub .500 years out of 20 and one just barely so.
You aren’t trying to imply that the Braves were stuck in a time machine and the players they started their run of 14/15 postseason berths all remained with them while other teams got older do you?
How exactly is that sucking?
When How about the years 1070 – 1990!
You know all those years the Mets were good that you included in your 25 Year revisionist history of the amateur draft to show how great the Braves were compared to us?
All Those years of sucking and they finally won a WS in 91! Wonder where and when they got all those kids like Jones and the pitching to do that?
Took 20 damn years of total suckage but you refuse to look past 1986 cause if you did you would have to include all those SUCK years of the 70′s that led to 86 as well!
The Braves won the World series in 1991?
They played baseball during the Crusades?
“SUCK years of the 70′s that led to 86 as well!”
Nope. Unless you mean it led to Cashen being hired. But no, what led to 1986 was good planning and sound execution starting in 1980.
You can’t seem to let go of the “only bad teams can draft well” fallacy.
The Braves were bad for a long time yes. But that still doesn’t support your position that the reason they got good was because of all the top 5 and top 10 picks that they got.
What would support your argument is if you could come up with the names of 4 or 5 guys taken in the first 10 picks of the draft that were true impact players for them. That’s what I’m asking you for. Just to back up your statement.
For instance if you said Glavine, Smoltz or Maddux that would be untrue. Glavine was a 2nd round pick. Smoltz a minor leaguer acquired for a trade of a veteran. Maddox a FA. No top 5 or top 10 picks received by the Braves for losing. Every single team, that kept their draft pick could have drafted Glavine. Every single team could have drafted Smotlz 22 times or traded for him and they didn’t get Maddox at any spot in the draft.
Philly the same. Give us the names of all these high impact top 5 or top 10 draft choices or the names of the guys they exchanged them for that led them to a title.
Stop stalling.
Evidence is posted so instead of acting as you complain about with Bayonne and tell me to stop stalling giving you info that was posted almost an hour and half ago I suggest you read it and respond and then prove how NONE of their CORE was drafted with any top 10 picks
STOP STALLING and prove your assertion they picked smart and not HIGH!
I proved mine or is it your intention to ignore that proof so you can keep playing the insult game you hate when it is done to you!
Metsie you should have gone with the dog ate my homework.
Chipper Jones. I gave you that one.
Steve Avery. 7-13 4.67 ERA pitched 12 innings in the post season the year they won the
Series. This top 5 pick was not a significant impact player for the Braves.
Lost almost twice as many as he won on a team with a .625 winning pct.
DISQUALIFIED
Kent Merker 7-8 4.15 ERA pitched 2 innings in the post season the year they won the
Series. This top 5 pick was not a significant impact player for the Braves
Losing record on a team with a .625 winning pct. hardly even played in the
post season. DISQUALIFIED
Mike Stanton (6th pick in the 13th round) How does this support your oft stated
but apparently poorly researched) contention that the Braves WS Champion
was built on top 5 and top 10 picks? DISQUALIFIED
Smoltz via Alexander via Ward GOOD ONE. a top 10 pick traded for a veteran pitcher who
then was traded for a prospect who turned out to be a big part of the Braves
WS winner. THAT’S TWO.
Jimmy Kremers Was not a top 5 or top 10 pick Wasn’t even picked in the first round.and
Otis Nixon wasn’t even on a Brave WS winner.
DISQUALIFIED
So Metsie how did you do in “proving” that the Braves WS Champion was built by top 5 and top 10 picks? Well you did give me one name. Ward through Alexander through Smoltz. I gave you one to start off with Chipper. Two names you gave me were top 5 picks but had very little impact on the team in the playoffs and were negative contributors during the regular season. Sorry 7-13 and 7-8 records and a total of 14 IP between them in the post season don’t qualify as impact. Hell Oliver Perez was better than that.
Not really sure how 2nd and 13th rounders fit into a discussion of top 5 and top 10 picks because really any team could have selected those players in the draft. Even a team that had gone undefeated the year before.
The idea that a player selected in ANY round in the top 5 or top 10 draft slots to bolster your contention is actually disproving it. After all if a guy is drafted #1 in the 20th round that means every team could have gotten him 19 times. That’s flies completely in the face of your theory.
As for the Phills you don’t even want to try to defend your theory? Don’t want to follow the bread crumbs? I’ll save you the trouble. Not one single top 5 or top 10 pick had anything what soever to do with the Phillies 2007 WS Championship. Not one.
THEORY DISPROVED. in the case of Philly and Atlanta. THEORY DISPROVED previously with the same contention with the NYY.
Top 5 and top 10 picks (that play like top 5 and top 10 picks) do make big differences but the mere fact of having had those picks is no proof of anything other than having had bad seasons and certainly not good one’s. Teams can be built in many different ways but the best chance of winning is to build in different ways using all available sources. Draft, IFA, trades, rule 5, non tenders and an occasional FA or two.
Washington and Tampa are two teams that could show the impact of top 5 and top 10 draft picks can have but Atlanta (with just 2) Philly ( with none) and NYY (with one) are not examples of this.
Those guys were all part of the team that gotto the WS dude so you can say whatever you want bout thier postseason performance and stats but thats just dog eating homework crap that tries to ignore the fact that THOSE GUYS MADE THE BRAVES WINNERS!
And the ones who were not drafted were FREE AGENTS blowing your smart drafter theory out of the fing water!
ALl those kids made it cheap maybe to be able to BUY those FAs but the bottomline is they got to the playoffs with those top 10 drafted guys!
And Stanton is a top of round pick!
When you pick in the top 10 of a round it is almost as good as getting a player from the round before compared to the other teams!
Was it a LUCKY pick? Sure was just as Howard was!
But that didn’t stop you from counting Howard before I noted when they picked in the round that got him did it?
Your dog ate and just pissed on your 25 years of homework!
Time to go back to the drawing board because the braves made it to the WS with quite a few top 10 overall draft picks no matter what you think their contribution was! And if it wasn’t a drafted player it was one that was BOUGHT and PAID for by what you derisively call MONKEYBALL!
25 Years of homework and One broken record DESTROYED so it can never play the same way again!
It’s been exposed as the UNRESEARCHED and UNQUALIFIED slanting of what actually happened!
You know what since we are in he moment where PROOF is being given why don’t you give YOUR LIST of who the Braves drafted and when to get them to the WS in 1991!
Get Snapping, Stop Stalling!
Why is Steve Avery disqualified? From 91-95 he was 69-51 and had a 3.67 ERA, and finished 6th in Cy Young voting in 91, and was an all star in 93. And in his career in the postseason for Atlanta, he had a 2.90 ERA in 77 innings.
He was a significant impact player for the Braves. I don’t know how you can say he wasn’t.
Metsie, Tell us the specific names of the players that the Braves and Phillies got with their top 5 or top 10 picks that helped them win a World Series OR were traded for someone who helped them win a World Series. (and give us that name too )
That’s the only way to see if your theory holds any water or not.
Here I’ll give you one. Chipper Jones. Now who else? Prove or disprove your theory rather than continually just stating it.
Braves 15 Top 10 Picks in 21 Years 70-91
Jones Picked 1st overall
Avery 3rd Overall
Merker 5th Overall
Stanton 6th pick in the 13th Rnd
Ward -9th Overall – Traded for Alexander who was Traded for Smoltz!
Kremers 3rd pick in the 2nd – Traded for Nixon
And thats just the top 10 picks that led to the 91 Team and I didn’t even go through every player just to see how far the chain of traded went!
And it should be noted they had quite a few FA signings to help that drafted Core win!
You want to follow the breadcrumbs on how the Phillies drafts played out go right ahead!
You already did last offseason when this 25 years down memory lane thing started!
You pointed out all the trades they made to get guys like Halladay and Lee!
And they got those guys because they sucked and picked at the top of most rounds!
This discussion really is about your theory, not mine. You stated that the Braves won because they sucked for so long. Getting a guy in the 13th round is not dependent upon “sucking” as you put it. That guy was available for the previous World Champion to draft 12 times. Did they “suck?” Presumably not, otherwise how would they have won the World Series?
In fact every team had a chance to draft a player in the 13th round. Some teams 12 times, some teams 13 times. For your theory to hold any water EVERY TEAM would have had to “suck.” since they all had loads of opportunities to draft the guy.
Now Metsie you specifically stated top 5 and top 10 picks many many times you used that verbiage and now your trying to include 13th round picks.
C’mon.
No this discussion is all about how WRONG your theory is about how thre Braves becamse the Brave, The Phillies became the Phillies and some warped idea that they did it all via SMART DRAFTS and our wasted picks!
Well they looked real smart because they had first choice at the cream of the crop!
And now that I showed you all those guys that made them a WS entrant you attempted to DISCOUNT and REMOVE them from the list of players that got them there which if you look at it means your saying the Braves BOUGHT themselves a WS entrance via MONKEYBALL since all their drafted players are NOT the reason they got there according to you!
Sorry but you should have known that I WOULD do the legwork daring someone to do usually works for you guys when you come up with only HALF the story to push forth a LYING theory!
And you got caught in that lie!
Cause they weren’t smart drafters they were HIGH drafters!
They didn’t become a force by just their drafts they BOUGHT a lot of guys to complement a core of 4 or 5!
And now that someone has done the research you won’t even give them the Draft credit the opposition gives you for your argument!
because those picks were all Top 10 rounders meaning they weren’t smarter than everyone to get them just a more awful baseball team to get them!
Avery was a high impact top 5 pick for a while but fell off pretty quick. I think he should be disqualified because he didn’t have much impact the year they won.
If you want to include him go ahead. He’s really only a fence sitter because he wasn’t impact the year they won it all and disappeared pretty quickly.
I guess I’d call it 2.5 then if you want to call it 3 go ahead.
ESCUSE ME! But the braves domimnated the Division LONG BEFORE they ever won a WS!
Remember this entire broken 25 year record was all about how the Braves DOMINATED FOR A DECADE!!!!
Not how they won the WS!
As an FYI the Braves went worst to 1st and made it to the 1st 2 World Series’ of their division “domination” and won the World Series in their 3rd Division title.
So not sure I’d call that “long before”
Metsie should get his facts straight someday. We gave up a lot more than 4 first rounders in the last 25 years and we gave up a lot of 2nd rounders as well (where many All Stars can be found) Third rounders too.
Vince Coleman cost a # 1 1991
Bobby Bonilla cost a # 2 1992
Robin Ventura cost a #1 1999
Todd Zeile cost a # 1 2000
Kevin Appier cost a # 1 2001
David Weathers cost a #2 2002
Roger Cedeno cost a #3 2002
Cliff Floyd cost a #2 2003
Tom Glavine cost a #3 2003
Pedro Martinez cost a #2 2005
Carlos Beltran cost a #3 2005
Billy Wagner cost a # 1 2006
Moises Alou cost a # 1 2007
K-Rod cost a # 1 2009
Jason Bay cost a # 2 2010
That’s SEVEN first rounders, FIVE 2nd rounders and THREE 3rd rounders given up since 1991.
All in approach, viewing farm system as only a way to net more veteran players.
Oh so we had no first rounder in those years I suppose is what your trying to say?
I guess Al Shirley was a figment of our imagination
I suppose Wilson and Roberts we both 2nd rounder in 92?
I mentioned and counted 1999!
2000 we took Traber so I guess we didn’t lose a pick! Maybe traded one!
2001 we got Heilman
2006 was counted!
Funny how you decided to throw in 2nd and 3rd rounder…
Now here is your homework assignment for the day…
List the SAME THING for the Phillies and Braves!
Include those 2nd and 3rd rounders!
Include everything you included for the mets and guess what!
You will see where you are basically bitching about the Mets doing what they did only they did it and didn’t suck enough to have those top 5 picks you rely on to make the others seem smart!
No answer Metsie on yet another of your patented “mistruths.”
Really we only gave four #1′s in 25 years?
I count seven of them in 20 years.
Five 2nd rounders and three third rounders as well and despite giving up all these picks we’ve still only made the playoffs one more time than the Pittsburgh Pirates in that same time frame.
Very very slick manuervering with truth there Metsie.
Almost as slick as our salary dumps after signing all these free agents.
Yes you count 7 because you conveniently leave out the fact that we GT 1st rounders in most of those years you mentioned in return!
If we had a pick in the firt round then we didn’t LOSE a pick merely traded it for another one by signing an FA and letting one go!
Convenient and dishonest counting of the facts on your part!
ah ha the old spin. Should have expected that from you Metsie.
fact is we have surrendered SEVEN first rounders and occasionally picked up a couple. Straw, Hampton, Glavine, Olerud but we’ve given away many others that must be included as well if your going to change the landscape. How about the two we could have gotten by offering arb to Alfonzo? How about the two we could have had by keeping and offerring arb to Wagner? Or Floyd? or the one we turned into Mo Vaughn?
To say nothing of the FIVE 2nd rounders and THREE 3rd rounders as well.
So if you want to broaden the examination to include ALL transactions regarding draft choices received AND lost then your argument gets even worse. A lot worse.
The spinning is all on your side who refuses to admit or even acknowledge that the Phillies and Braves did it as often if not MORE so than the team you are complaining about!
Thats where the spin is trying to make everyone Dizzy by mentioning what one team did but not the guys who did it more who you called SMART!
Metsie I understand your oft stated opinion about the Phillies finally winning so much because of all the losing they did but I still have yet to hear HOW those top 5 or top 10 picks helped them win.
Please explain HOW JD Drew or Gavin Floyd helped them win.
Drew never played for them and they lost the draft pick. Floyd was traded with Gio Gonzalez for Freddy Garcia who had one bad year, left via free agency with no compensation.
Please explain how that helped the Phillies win.
You tell me Tag, Your the one who uses them to talk about how great a drafter they are and as a result made them successful!
What you fail to look at is where did they get the guys they traded for Halladay and Lee?
When did they take them and why didn’t they take Haladay and Lee when they had the chance to get them because they picked so high in those drafts?
Those picks they got when they picked higher than other are what they used to get those guys who make up their pitching rotation!
They drafted only 4 guys in the amatuer draft! Rollins Howard, Utley and hamels!
Victorino is a rule 5 they didn’t pick in the june draft!
A guy they actually passed on in the Amateur draft
Metsie your the one stating your hypothesis is correct but not offering any PROOF of it.
I’m asking YOU for the proof. To name names of players the Braves and Phillies drafted with top 5 or top 10 picks who helped them win a World Series OR were traded for someone (again, give us a name) who did.
It’s your statement. I’ve seen you write it many times but I’m asking you to back it up and your just stalling. I even gave you a name to start with to get you going. Chipper Jones. Now it’s your turn.
Don’t give us the Halldiay, Lee, Oswalt, Blanton stuff because the guys Philly traded for them weren’t top 5 or top 10 draft picks. They were all available to be drafted by either most teams or all teams, several of them multiple times, and Werth and Victorinno were as well.
Please. Back up your statement by providing names or admit it doesn’t hold water.
Proof was gven!
15 top 10 picks in 21 years!
but your little trip down memory lane got a flat at 1986 which is why you didn’t notice how they got there!
I asked you to stop stalling and attempt to prove your theory because you wouldn’t back up your opinion with any facts. I don’t care if anyone attacks me either. If all someone has is opinions they back up with name calling I don’t even bother to attempt a rational discussion but you have an oft stated opinion that just stand up to the burden of proof and that might be why your feeling defensive.
Top 5 and top 10 picks, especially when earned through years of “sucking” I take to mean the first 10 picks of the first round. Those are the picks you “earn” by “sucking.”
Selecting a relief pitcher with the 6th selection of the 13th round is completely insufficient proof of a player being acquired due to “sucking.” That player could have been selected by every single other team at least 12 times whether they “sucked” or not.
I have just off the top of my head provided you in the above post with the names of players who had a MUCH MUCH more significant impact on the Braves than the names you gave me.
David justice 4th round #14 Ron Gant 4th round #20, Tom Glavine 2nd rnd #19, Millwood 11th rnd #24, Brian McCann 2nd round #23, Freddie Freeman 2nd round #15, Jason Heyward 1st rnd #15, Fred McGriff in a trade for a 5th and 7th rounder plus an IFA. Klesko 5th round, Mark Wholers 8th round, Marcus Giles 43rd round. Mark lemke 27th round. Kerry Lightenberg undrafted, and don’t forget the following IFA’s also available to any single team that wanted them. Eddie Perez, Javy Lopez, Martin Prado, Rafeal Furcal, Andruw Jones. Don’t forget maddox and Brian Jordan available to every team that wanted to sign them regardless of whether they had “sucked” or not.
All these players were available to any team and had a hell of a lot more impact on the team than Merker, Stanton, Avery, or kremers or Wade who got Smoltz who was available to every single team 22 times the year before the Braves traded for him.
And what’s up with the snarky pray tell?
Yeah you said it after the proof was already posted!
Ok It’s your turn now time to prove the braves were smarter drafters who created that 1991 team via draft! And no top 10 picks should be included in that list or all you will have done is prove MY point!
Stop Stalling and post it!
Your forgetting a few of the Phillies draft picks and your forgetting about some guys they drafted and traded but none of them were top 5 or top 10 picks so they don’t prove your theory, they disprove.
I didn’t mention any of the philies draft picks
Try reading the post instead of just making believe you did and then playing your post as if I’m Bayonne and attacked you as you seem to be doing but don’t like when it is done to you!
I proved the Braves had an awful lot of top10 picks to build with!
And a lot of top round selection across the board!
I even showed you some of the trades those guys got!
Which just goes to show how you HAVE no proof because you think they drafted their team and when I agree and show you where you run, hide and ignore it while telling me to stop stalling!
If your going to treat me like that despite me not attacking you well let it be noted that I will give you back what you hate to get from bayonne and will have the proof of WHO STARTED IT right here in the post time stamping!
Now I PROVED my point!
Time for you to prove yours!
Get Snapping and stop stalling!
Metsie I’m not attacking you, but I am attacking this theory of yours. You’ve stated on many occasions that the Braves and Phillies were built by “sucking for 10-20 years and I’ve tried a number of times to get you to prove it.
I do apologize if you feel attacked but I think were discussing the topic rationally. No names, BS ect. I’m just being insistent because I’d like to get to the bottom of it.
Many of the Braves that played well for them came from the 2nd-10th round. The better your scouting the better your chances. The more places you look, the luckier you get.
My point in attacking your theory is that anyone could have drafted all but two of the big impact Braves. Chipper and Ward (who brought Alexander who brought Smoltz)
Big impact Braves came in the 4th round like Gant and Justice. McCann and Freeman in the 2nd round. Venters in the 3rd. Furcal, Andruw Jones, Prado and Javy lopez from IFA. None of those players were unavailable to any team. Every single one of them could have been drafted signed or traded for by every single team. Previous year, decade or century’s record had zero to do with it. Same with Glavine and Maddox. Available to every team.
Braves go FA here and there too but the big thing they do is trades. Millions of trades. Big names too, usually getting younger. Usually addressing this year but often times addressing subsequent years as well or only.
Phillies too. Total of two players not available to every single team. The 15th and 18th overall selection and everyone else was available to everyone.
I apologize if you felt I was attacking you. I wasn’t, just your theory.
Well you got awful snarky with your Stop Stalling snark and you know me I WILL return it back and point out that it is that ATTITUDE that causes people to flip and attack you!
You want to disprove my theory then go ahead…
Show us the list of players drafted in years where the braves did not pick in the top 10 of every round that got them to the 91 WS!
SHow your list of the players you think they drafted that got them there!
I bet you don’t come up with any that were not on my list!
I bet you come up with a few years AFTER they got to the WS and became the dominant team in the division!
Many of which I will bet they traded some of those top picks in every round 15 of 21 years to get them!
Now you have two ways to go here….
You can create a list of drafted players that the braves got outside of years they were one of the worst 10 teams in baseball.
Or you can’yt rendering your entire argument about how the Braves became what they became MOOT and disproved!
So here is the challenge I showed you my proof.
Now you show the DRAFTED NOT TOP 10 Rounders who made the Braves the team they were in 91!
And if you can’t there is all the proof you need to prove I’m Right!
Want to move onto the Phillies after that I will be happy to engage!
The Phillies have only a couple of players that every single team didn’t have a chance to get. Utley could have been drafted by 14 out of 30 teams. Hamels could have been drafted by 17 out of 30 teams.
Every single other player was available to every single other team. Most of them multiple times, ergo Metsie’s conclusion is the Phillies assembled their World Championship team by picking ahead of everyone else.
Very strange conclusion.
Metsie also feels that since the Phillies traded away guys from the farm for parts of their World Series Championship team that is somehow worse then spending draft picks on guys no one will give you anything for that you signed for millions upon millions of dollars.
Very weird.
Tell Us Metsie, when was the last time we drafted a player in the 2nd round who has had the career of Jimmy Rollins?
When was the last time we drafted a guy in the 5th round who’s had the career of Ryan Howard?
When was the last time we picked up a non tender who gave us the production that Jayson Werth gave Philly?
When was the last time we picked up a rule 5 who gave us the production Shane Victorinno has given the Phillies?
Pray tell.
What hasn’t worked out for the Phillies? The same thing that hasn’t worked out for us, signing expensive free agents. They just happened to do a hell of a lot less of it than we have.
Yeah and how many had a shot at Floyd, Burrel, and Drew all being used as evidence of how smart the Phillies are?
What about the Gomes, Lieberthal, Jackson, Brink picks which were also top 10 or top 5 that would have been BETTER players if they really were SMART about who to get?
You can keep closing your eyes to stop the 20 years of smoke you use to make the point from burning them but the fact is they got the players they got and traded for by picking high in the draft and either keeping or trading them for something they had previously PASSED on drafting because they were not smart enough to take them when they had first chance!
Drew refused to sign with them so how did that help the Phillies win a World Championship? Pray tell. They didn’t even net a comp pick the next year when they didn’t sign him.
In fact how exactly did any of those guys back up your statement in any way shape or fashion that “the Phillies got good by sucking for years.”
None of those guys who mentioned helped out one iota. They had nothing to do with anything connected to 2007-2011. Not one single thing.
Please explain your rationale that Gavin Floyd helped the Phillies win the World Series. I’m trying to work with you here Metsie but there’s just no connection. I get the part about them being bad and netting the 4th pick in the draft but Gavin Floyd had nothing to do with anything.
They traded him along with Gio Gonzalez for Freddy Garcia who sucked for one year and left them with nothing when he moved on.
How in God’s name did that help the Phillies win the World Series? If anything it hurt their chances.
Complete and utter BS just like your “mis truth” about how many #1 picks the Mets have given up and how Joan Payson was behind the midnight massacre.
You really have to stop making stuff up if you ever want to regain even a shred of credibility.
I guess all that smoke you been blowing about the 20 years previous to Omar and the notion that the Phillies were much smarter pickers than us is clouding your attempts to see what I said…
That having 6 top 5 picks makes you look smart while having only TWO does not allow you to look AS smart!
And both of those were picked by the GM you actually claimed was good mcilvane!
The Phillies sucked when it came to signing free agents, no different than us. They just did a hell of a lot less of it than we did and they drafted better and looked at other places besides just type A free agents to upgrade their team and didn’t just throw together a bunch of millionaires on their last contract and expect everything to jell.
Now their flush with talent and cash
We have some talent, most of it at A+ and AA and no cash.
They have SRO we have entire decks available.
So yes it’s natural to feel that we have done so much a better a job than the Phillies.
Obviously.
Yep but that fact didn’t stop you from conveniently bitching about it when we did it and simply passing on the fact they AND the braves did pretty much the same thing and it was only the fact they sucked and had 6 top 5 picks compared to our 2 that made their picks look better on the whole and allowed them to promote them or trade them for something else promotable to the MLB!
Which is why they have more guys coming from their minors because they had three times the chance to pick at the top of every round than we did!
BECAUSE THEY SUCKED AT THE TIME and for a GOOD LONG TIME TOO!!
Have to ask here…
Are we talking about the Phillies not the Braves anymore because you realized I was right abot the Braves not only that they had high draft picks to build and trade for their core WHILE going after free agents as well?
Are you conceeding the Braves didn’t do it the way you suggested? By outsmarting everyone and instead did it by sucking so no one else could get the players because the Braves already took them?
When we settle the Braves I will be happy to move onto the Phillies!
As for the Mets, the Mets were never the worst team in baseball the way thre Phillies and Braves were during that LIMITED stretch of time you seem to want to limit things to!
Certainly the grass is indeed greener on the other side.
A draft is so much more than just the first round. Rollins was a 2nd rounder. Did he not help? How about Howard? 5th rounder? Worley a 3rd rounder. Pense and Bourn 4th rounders.
Don’t forget about the Phillies adding players WITHOUT giving up draft choices. Werth and Victorino played great for them and cost not a single draft choice. Ruiz got signed 1n 1996. Took him 10 years to pay off but he’s a big part of their success.
yes but the SMARTS of a draft is determined by how you RATED the players before you took them and the order in which you selected them!
You can;t say the Philies were SMART to take Howard in the 8th round if they picked a bunch of stiffs in the 5-7 previous rounds and SKIPPED over Howard!
If they were really SMART they would not have let Howard go that long, doing so only proves they didn’t think much of him which makes them no smarter than anyone else who didn’t pick him from round 1-7!
They took a shot and hit the lottery!
You don’t need brains to hit the lottery!
Winning the lottery is not a sign of how smart you are either!
You take a bunch of calculated risks in the draft based on risk/reward. Howard was a risk/reward guy. Big boom/big bust written all over him, same as the guys you’ve never heard of. Howard was the guy who did boom.
Last year you were crowing all over Josh Thole.
If ever Josh Thole made it and only 1 out 10 Ryan Howard’s did who would have the better draft?
I know you’ll say Josh Thole but let me tell you right now Metsie. No team full of Josh Thole’s is going to the playoffs, let alone 5 straight.
How many losing seasons in a row must we endure waiting for that one player???? good luck getting the next reyes anytime soon ok…
Howard was a risk/reward guy. Really?
So then their INTELLIGENCE said he was not worth taking before 7 other guys?
How did those guys do? Risk or Reward?
If they were actually SMART as you suggest they would have taken Howard way before the failures they took in front of him because they judged them BETTER PICKS than Howard at the time!
You seem to think LUCKY means your SMART!
I note how you ran and hid on this point yet badger me to stop stalling in oters that were already answered but you didn’t read because you would have to acknowledge and conceed the point if you did!
If his knee is as bad as they say, why would any other team have interest?
they have real medical and training staffs?
lot’s of guys in pro sports play with Knee problems. Makes you wonder what is so significant about his that at age 23 if can’t be managed?
Well the word degenerative is certainly scary.
We could not give this guy away at this point. But he has company in Bay and Pelfrey.
F-Mart sucked from Day One. Will never understand why any fan held out hope for him. I remember how touted he was like four years ago, and every time he made an appearance–almost every time–he just looked like crap. He’s no Lastings Milledge!
Actually Lastings might prove to be a good comparison….
As for him sucking when he came up, while true, he should have never been up to start with. They refused to let him ever get comfortable in the minors before bringing him up.
I hear that, but my point is I just never saw the great athleticism or talent that one might expect, even with a kid who’s totally raw.
Well that’s where sometimes a scout can get it wrong. They have to project based on body type. Fmart was “toolsy” kind of like Beltran in the minors. He had potential to be a 20+ HR guy with some speed and defense.
that is far. But, sometimes guys don’t work out due to injuries, and it doesn’t mean the scouts were wrong.
I will give you that Fern has been the most underwhelming prospect I have ever seen at the ML level but as a 19 year old in AA he was absolutely brilliant and was about 3-4 years younger than the average player.
It was a great signing that just didn’t work out and at 1.4 M how can you complain. That’s less than it costs to fill up the corporate jet.
If you signed 10 Fern’s through the years for a total of 14 M you’d have 5 guys who went to multiple All Star teams and take care of 5 positions on your team for a decade at a time, severely reducing the need to import a Vince Coleman, Jason Bay, Bobby Bonilla, ect ect ect.
MORE SECOND GUESSING…………………………
How can an opinion that signing Fern was a good move even though it didn’t work out be a 2nd guess?
If you signed 10 Fern’s through the years for a total of 14 M you’d have 5 guys who went to multiple All Star teams and take care of 5 positions on your team for a decade at a time, severely reducing the need to import a Vince Coleman, Jason Bay, Bobby Bonilla, ect ect ect.
isn’t that second guessin??? because in your little mind you want a lineup with all homegrown players right??? that’s what you want? stop this nonsense ok… you’re trying to be like the pirates or the royals for years to come!?
That’s not second guessing, LOL. It might be idealistic but not second guessing. You are accusing people of things you don’t even know what are.
and now you’re defending aggee!?!?!? damn man, you’re like an onion….
I told you it’s not about defending one over the other. I see points I agree with and defend them. Not my fault that all of yours have been illogical today.
That’s not 2nd guessing in the least. Fern was the most talented amateur in Latin America when he was signed. The most talented amateur in Latin America hits huge once out of every two times.
Just check the All Star team for the names.
Alex sometimes you let your negative feelings for Alderson get in the way of your baseball intellect. How can you call what agee said second guessing? That’s not second guessing, he speaks the truth and is simply relaying the facts on F-Mart.
Had we signed 10 fmarts we wouldn’t have to sign the bonillas and colemans etc.. how is that NOT SECOND GUESSING
READ AGAIN: “severely reducing the need to import a Vince Coleman, Jason Bay, Bobby Bonilla, ect ect ect.”
He’s gung ho on having homegrown talent at every position, that is why he mentions had we sign 10 fmarts we would’ve have all stars etc.. can someone tell aggee not every player a team draft or sign through ifa makes it to the bigs?? he still blaming omar for not getting brian mccann, yet, he was passed about 50 times in the draft, he’s nothing but a second guesser and i will always believe he is and will be….
If you want to know what I think just ask me, don’t tell me.
Of course not every prospect makes it to the big leagues. Your not really adding anything usefull here everyone already knew that. Many many years ago.
Yeah I want us to develop our own homegrown stars and keep them here but I also want us to develop lots of other guys we can trade for other teams stars to round out where we didn’t get the right guy or upgrade when an opportunity arises.
Not look around every year for “who we can get” for 8-12 spots on the 40 man roster.
Now go clean the cotton candy out of your hair face and hands.
How could I be blaming Omar for giving away the pick we COULD have used on Brian McCann? Omar wasn’t even the GM here when McCann was drafted.
What a loud mouth know nothing.
actually alex if we would have signed 10 fmarts we would have made the Pirates look successful, but t agee knows everything. That’s why he is the GM of the mets, what? he’s not? No, he must be….. He knows everything.
According to Metsblog the Mets are looking at maybe swapping Turner for Eric Young Jr. I like that trade, yes I know Turner’s offensive production might be better overall but I like Young’s potential more as well as his versatility. Here comes the stats police but he did manage a .342 OBP last year even with a terrible BA, he also netted 27 steals in just 229 PA. Factor that out over a full season and you get 77 steals LOL.
LMAO, that also meant having a guy with 650+ at bats hit 246… ugh.. 5 jason bays on a team can not be good!
Look at the overall production below and factor in defense and speed and tell me why one is so much better than the other? Looks pretty even. Pointless it appears anyway.
Eric Young jr to the mets for turner.. yikes….
It’s funny how we see things in such a completely different view on just about everything. I like the move, you say yikes…
.260 .334
.247 .342
One is a decent fielder and can play the OF, the other one has more pop.
If Turner has more pop, it’s not by much. He’s not a longball threat by any means. I like this trade.
I mean, “potential” trade.
The thing with E.Y. Jr. is that he really needs to go back to the drawing board. He has the speed, but he needs to improve on his defense (that, and perhaps move him back to CF should he be dealt to the Mets) and improve at the plate. He seems to have the discipline. I wouldn’t deal Turner tho, as he would be a valuable bat off the bench.
Twitter strikes again, now Turner is not part of that potential deal and nothing is imminent.
Like all BS Niese rumors, they slowly but surely disintegrate within a few hours. I was going to post on this but figured, nahhh I already called out all the other bogus Niese rumors let me give it a rest. All I know is what Sandy told us and that is talk is cheap and we can be assured that Niese will be in the 2012 rotation.
Joe D, sandy has told us we’re not conceding 2012 and that he wants franchise players…
He also told us if nothing else the Mets will be fun to watch. Chicks dig the long-ball and so does he.
Last place is not fun….keep selling the company lines
As Ive said for years in the shoutbox, how did this guy go from some scrawny poor kid playing kick the can on a dirt field to Mets number one prospect? What a joke! Might as well cut him nobody will give up $5 dollar foot long for him.
Send F-Mart packing…..Nobody wants him anymore!
It would also be nice if we could all move forward instead of all of this I told you so stuff. I am tired of so many fans (?) not accepting the fact that the team is going to be a last place club for a year or so. There is hope for the future as we do have some quality young pitchers down on the farms. Like it or not we did not have the money to resign Jose Reyes or to make big time offers to the free agents available this off season. Unfortunately, Sandy Alderson inherited this mess and there is little he can do. We have owners who are trying to keep their heads above water and despite their current financial position, do not want to sell this team!
GET OVER IT GUYS!
i didn’t know your real name lord stanley was alan.
so geniusalderson is trying to get an american league team to take f mart… if not he will release him. hey geniusalderson use your guile,the same guile, that got u 6 of 7 below .500 seasons as a gm. the same guile u used to outsmart jose reyes the same guile that will get u laughed out of town in a couple of years,pardner.hears an idea keep f mart in a few years he will play for nothing and u will be a hero to ownership.another met suspect takes the stumble bum road.the few good prospects like reyes we let go.lol
sorry lord sandy for calling you lord stanley. You will never have your name on a championshipship cup.. sorry again lord sandy, i mean alan…….