8
2011
MMO Fan Shot: If It Sounds Like A Duck And Walks Like A Duck…
An article by 
It’s all about the money!
Seems everyone is convinced that not making an offer to Jose Reyes is the smart play. I question that thinking because an offer not made is merely an offer that can not be accepted, Nothing more. If the fear is another team is going to outbid you well they are going to do that on the very first dollar offered so all you really managed to accomplish is ensure that an outbid would happen.
Most fans believe that baseball players are all about the money, Agents are, that’s for sure – the more they get for their clients, the bigger their cut. But agents don’t decide which contracts to accept or will be signed – Players do!
We have seen examples of players signing contracts when better money was to be had merely for the fact that they want to live in certain areas and not others. Many a player has declined good offers or limited their team options because they preferred to stay on the East or West coast. Some sign to play in smaller stages or markets because it makes them more comfortable than the big city life and media spotlight (CC Sabathia had his out clause put into his original contract for just this reason). Others even take less money just to play with a specific team they feel has a better chance of winning or simply because they want to play for one specific team. See Cliff Lee who gave up a year at 20+ Million, to play for Philadelphia because he didn’t like the fans in NY and the Phillies gave him just as much a chance to win as the Pinstripers did.
Yes, many players who sign big contracts do seek out the highest bidder. That’s because the majority of big contracts come when the player hits the market for the very first time. They have not achieved their financial stability yet because they were exclusive to a ball club who had control over their salary and was limited in the amount of raises they could get by arbitration. No bidders means no BIG contracts.
Many of the players who do go for the money rather than location and situation, often find themselves in a city they don’t want to be in or on a team that is going nowhere. I wonder how Jayson Werth would have felt counting his money if the Phillies had won the WS? I wonder if Pujols is going to demand as much as he originally wanted or simply jump the World Series ship merely for $2-3 Million more somewhere else?
Alex Rodriguez, who was once in negotiations with the Mets, asked for the world, but got very little (comparatively) from the Mets and a whole lot of cash from the Rangers. Eventually he said that he wished he had negotiated a deal with the Mets rather than going to Texas. He sure wasn’t winning anything with the Rangers and no one seemed to care much about him on that small stage. Yes, everything is BIGGER in Texas except the Media stage that egotistical stars need to feel good.
There are many reasons a player declines or accepts a contract and in many cases it’s more than just the money. Additionally, there is more money to be made in marketing and merchandising by playing in a large market as opposed to a small one.
Reyes has said he PREFERS to stay in NY. The question is how much is that worth to him? 2 Mil Per year? 5 Million Per year? An extra year on the end of his contract? Or is it that he only prefers to stay in NY if they make an equal bid compared to some other team?
I see lots of people BELIEVING and crystal balling one scenario or the other, but the truth is there is only ONE WAY to find out!
TALK TO THE DAMN GUY!
Make an offer and say:
“This is what we got right now, If that’s not enough well, tell us what it will take. If you want to shop around to get the best price, call us when you figure it out, but we are going to move forward and our current offer may not be available at that point in time because we need to sign guys who DO know what they want and are ready to sign.”
That would give Reyes the idea we want him, how much we might be willing to pay right now and if he chooses to go shop and doesn’t get a better offer well he reduced his own worth. If he gets a better offer, then we can decide if the money is worth it or not.
Do that and no one could blame Sandy for pushing Reyes out the door!
But making no offers is sending only one message… We don’t want you at ANY price!
If you never make an offer, you’ll never sign ANYONE… Maybe that’s the strategy? That we don’t want to sign ANYONE including Reyes?
If that’s the case, then there’s no denying it, we are playing MONEYBALL and despite the many denials, we are THE MONEYBALL METS!
This Fan Shot was submitted by Mike (Metsie). Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over eleven-thousand Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.0 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 6.5 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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LMAO, as soon as i saw moneyball in this article i knew it was metsie.. lmao, good post though, is pretty much all we as fans of the NY METS wanna hear, that at least our GM is trying to sign reyes, not play the wait and see game. but, sandy was more concernt about the picks he was gonna get than reyes, in the result, it might bite him in the as-s because if milwaukee signs reyes. The Brewers would have to give the Mets the 28th overall pick in next year’s draft , BUT if is with the marlins he signs,the Marlins would only have to surrender a second-round pick.
so even the news on that are not good in moneyball land.. as i said many times f*** MONEYBALL!
hey alex68, don’t blame sandy alderson, he is only the messenger and the message is coming from the coupons. reyes could have been signed easily by the mets for a reasonable amount at the beginning of spring training for a reasonable amount if the coupons had ever intended on keeping him. the mets owners have no class, loyalty nor do they care for the city and it’s fans. they decided long ago that reyes would not be coming back. they have done EVERYTHING possible to encourage him to find another team and NOTHING to make him think they want him back. we will NEVER have an allstar player that will stay with the team for his whole career like derek jeter did with the yankees. Like wright said, “if jose goes, anyone can go”. i hope when reyes leaves he goes to an nl east team and leaves a lousy sandwich pick in the draft. also if he goes, i really doubt wright will stay. and don’t think ike davis and lucas duda and our prospects are’nt paying attention. they know they will get paid as little as possible and if they develop into great players, will have to leave the mets because they will never get the money they deserve. WHAT GOOD PLAYERS IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WILL EVER WANT TO PLAY FOR US ?! this is the beginning of the end for the mets franchise. i don’t see them winning a championship for decades, or until the coupons sell their investment. and an investment is all this team is to them.
Great post Metsie,
Very simple and standard way to do business. Show the guy you want him, take him and his wife and agent out to dinner and just start TALKING. Maybe he would agree to decent deal with Mets if you spoke to him and maybe he can take 15 million the first year allowing Alderson more flexibility to build the team. That way Alderson is SHOWING that he wants to win in 2012 despite the payroll.
Going into next season with Reyes at SS, Tejada at 2B, Davis at 1B, Duda in RF….oh okay Wright at 3B..Bay in LF and with the fences moved in could be a nice template to work with.
Than we find out how Santana is and if he can pitch..even better. That’s of course Sandy knows more about Santana than is letting on. But say Santana is okay then I can live with Niese, Gee, & Dickey or if u want to make a trade for major league ready starting pitching involving any combination of pitchers maybe even Pelfrey included too if we’re lucky. Than we’re starting to get somewhere.
Then we can sign a starter and move Cap to the bullpen if he wants to stay.
Alderson and his Holy Trinity are SUPPOSED to be smart so there’s a lot of creativity I’m leaving the door open to.
But none of it is being used because Alderson is literally giving up. Not a good plan man because now you have fans leaving in droves and the team losing more money whereas in MY scenario the fan base sees that the GM is trying to win and who knows? Maybe taking Jose out and speaking to the man gets you somewhere and then maybe a few trades, some SMART TALENT EVALUATION and bingo we may have a team that con contend in 2012 leading to more fans buying season tickets and more money for the organization.
Alderson is going about everything WRONG. A few of us here could team up and do a better job than Alderson and I mean that.
“Very simple and standard way to do business. Show the guy you want him, take him and his wife and agent out to dinner and just start TALKING. Maybe he would agree to decent deal with Mets if you spoke to him and maybe he can take 15 million the first year allowing Alderson more flexibility to build the team.”
Sounds like you’ve done this before. *rolls eyes*
Just curious, how do you guys know they are not talking.
Good job on the writing portion of this blog.
Now, a few things I take exception to:
“We have seen examples of players signing contracts when better money was to be had merely for the fact that they want to live in certain areas and not others”
We have? You follow that up by saying “Others even take less money just to play with a specific team they feel has a better chance of winning or simply because they want to play for one specific team. See Cliff Lee who gave up a year at 20+ Million, to play for Philadelphia because he didn’t like the fans in NY and the Phillies gave him just as much a chance to win as the Pinstripers did.”
The Yankees offer was for 6 years, $132 million. Cliff Lee’s current deal is for 5 years, 107 million and an option year which at minimum earns him 12.5 if bought out. If he remains a top talent, he earns 27.5 million on a picked up option making his contract worth 134.5. Essentially he’s gambling on his own talents. That option becomes guaranteed if Lee 1) is not on the disabled list at end of 2015 season with injury to left elbow or left shoulder, and 2) has 200 IP in 2015 or 400 IP in 2014-15
So for starters your blanket statement that players take less money, and followed up by Cliff Lee is a poor example. Do you know who the highest paid pitcher in MLB is right now?
Cliff Lee.
I’m not doubting that players make concessions here and there but your example is not a good one.
At the end of the day, signing Jose Reyes has to be best for this team over the ENTIRE course of his contract. The entire thing. This is not a championship team where you hope signing a guy to a 7 year deal gets you a title in year 1 or 2 so its worth it.
This entire Reyes saga has so many holes in it, and that’s why I’m waiting to see if unfold rather than assume things. Regardless of what happens, the same people will blame Alderson if Reyes leaves. If Reyes takes a 5/90 deal and Alderson says we matched it and he left, you’ll blame Sandy anyway.
The only thing Alderson CAN do is sign Reyes with an open checkbook to make some people happy. Me? I’m tired of watching the Mets sign guys with an open checkbook and then looking back and saying “that probably wasn’t a good idea.”
Signing Reyes cannot handcuff this team over the course of his contract, and you want to sign every player because you believe through their contract they will be worth it.
5/90 would have gotten Reyes signed back in ST 2010 and 66M of that would have come out of Bay’s pocket. We also would have kept our 2nd round pick (where 10-15% of the best players in baseball come from) meaning we might even have a Major League catcher someday or a closer WE developed, or perhaps a RFer or LFer. Who knows.
Right now TWELVE of the best prospects in baseball were acquired by teams in the 2010 draft SOLELY from picks they got for LOSING free agents.
Among the free agents signed in 2010 that cost their teams draft choices are Chone Figgins, John Lackey, Billy Wagner, Jason Bay and Mike Gonzalez. None of these players are tradeable simply because of their performance, forget about their salary. The only guy who was worthwhile was Valverde. The only one.
Boston got Scutero from Toronto but Toronto drafted Aaron Sanchez and Justin Nicolino (in the 2nd round) two of the best starting pitching prospects in the minors with the supplemental and compensation pick.
Boston also gave up a #1 pick for Lackey but got FOUR back by “losing” Wagner and Bay. One guy they got by “losing” Wagner was Bryce Brentz RFer who killed it in A- and A+ last year and one guy they got for “losing” Bay is a highly regarded starting pitcher Anthony Ranuado.
We used our 2nd round pick to “lock up” Jason Bay for 4 years.
When you look at those three teams and how they made out by losing or signing free agents it’s clear the “wins” were all on the part of the teams that lost guys and the losses were on those that signed them and if you think this is an anomoly your dead wrong. This is the norm. Just look at how many free agent disasters we’ve signed through the years and then look at the best two players we’ve developed (that came from the draft) in the last 20 years. Wright and Davis as well as Heilman and Holt. Got ‘em for “losing” Hampton and Glavine.
Free agent class of 2010, one good signing and 5 useless players vs. twelve of the best prospects in baseball for losing a free agent.
Not to mention probably losing one your best players already on the team and in his prime.
Monkeyball can never see beyond October of the current year and nine times out of ten has already packed up the bats and ball by October 1st.
So tell us all Tag which can’t miss prospect are you getting with the sandwich pick and 2nd rounder your going to get from the Marlins if reyes signs there?
Enquiring minds want to know!
Please tell us which Cy Young, All Star or Hall of famer is going to after the 30th pick!
Sadly, because of Tax reasons teams in Florida have an advantage over teams in NY. So Sandy would have to beat the Marlins offer by 10%-15% (I’m guessing with the numbers) to even make the contracts comparable.
Lots of players still claim residence in Florida or Texas. Jeter gets his mail sent to Tampa. It doesn’t really make a big difference.
Don’t worry, one day you will you will have a job and understand how the Tax Code works in this country!
It doesn’t matter WHERE you live and get your checks!
It matters where the company you work for says you worked!
You could live in Bermuda for all the State and Federal government cares!
You make your money in NY you pay NY state Taxes no matter if you live in NY or not!
Ask anyone who lives in New Jersey and Works in the City!
You make your money in Florida you don’t have to file State Taxes in NY provided you can show residence outside of NY!
players get taxed based on days played in a specific city. SO he stil pays less in taxes being in Fla, only because he plays more games there.
You pay NY State taxes ONLY if you spent 30days or more in the state otherwise you can claim non resident and pay zero state tax. I did this every year while I was in the Air Force. After 30 days it’s prorated and you claim part time non resident.
typical propaganda from the mets apologist. the mets never made a bad move according to jessep. whatever the mets are doing at the time is the right move. defends them like he owns them. cannot wait to read why it was the right reason not to sign reyes. by jeesep. coming very soon
He’s not gone yet.
will, I’m so lucky to have loyal readers like you… thanks!
you notice how after everyone saw right trough you and saw you for what you are (a lying sack of sh** dbag) your articles have become less “atractive” to the audience
you see alex? This guy wants responses and comment counts on his site no matter what.
I suggest never posting again on any of his articles
I recommend you both stop posting as well.
Please follow that advice as well!
he’s such a douch*e is not even funny.. you have no idea how much i wanted him to come meet me at the stadium as i told him to do.
donal, please, STHU.. really, other than the other 2 douc*hes here jesse and agggee noone likes you. you try to be cool with them by try to attack us. but really, stop it ok.
Alex — Please stop using intimidatory language. You’re not a thug,So don’t write like one. It really makes you boorish, Use words to define what you want, not the threat of fists. Your kids need you. I know you can do better.
Des, nobody would use intimidatory language if some of the commenters here weren’t snarky and sarcastic 100% of the time.
If certain people on here want the name calling to stop, then knock it off with the snark and sarcasm – It’s annoying as hell, and I can’t blame people like Alex for lashing out at them.
Vinny B. — Why not let Alex answer for himself? We’re all big boys and girls and each of us is responsible for what we say. Please understand that I agree that several folks on this site vie for being the snarkiest. But let’s just stop all of it. I don’t think that will happen if each of us doesn’t answer for herself or himself. (Notice the P.C. approach? lol)
you still riding my vanwagon des, why do you have a problem with vinny defending me when you’re doing the same for donal?? jesus.. live and let live
Des if you were really serious about this you would take Donal to task just as readily as he does it on way more posts than Alex!
Metsie, of course I’m serious about it. Really, did you think otherwise?
I made my original comment to Alex because he overdid his threat. It has no place here. Physical threats are empty when all of us communicate via email. We shouldn’t use them.
I have a pretty busy life so I spend only an idle hour or two on MMO. I noticed Alex’s comment so I responded. I’m not a policeman and I have no intention of ever being one. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try to help a friend like Alex. I try to keep my comments directed to the party I’m addressing. I don’t want to gang up on a differing view. You, Vinnie and I sometimes agree. Sometimes we don’t agree. But I always try to only speak for myself.
I’m just saying if we are going to try and police the offenders lets treat and chastise ALL bad and snarky trouble making comments not just the ones of guys you personally have issues with!
If we aren’t going to call out all offenders then we are wasting our time thats all I’m trying to say here.
Cause even if they stop someone new will come along see the others who were not called out doing it and the names on one side will change while the others stay the same because we only dealt with one side of the trouble not both!
If we want to help JoeD police the comments then lets enforce the law and apply it equally to EVERYONE regardless of what handle they posted with!
anyway you slice it Jessup, Lee took less GUARANTEED MONEY to play for the team he wanted!
132m compared to 119.5m
I could have used Weaver as an example as well! He wanted to stay with the Angels!
http://baseball.about.com/b/2011/08/24/take-note-free-agents-jered-weaver-added-some-fans-with-move.htm
Other examples:
Lowell 2008 RedSox
Biggio Astros
Bagwell Astros
Puckett Minny
Mariano Rivera Yankees
Chipper Jones Braves
Ken Griffey Jr. Reds
Mark McGuire StLouis
Even Pujols gave the Cards a discount and didn’t go to market in 2001 when he could have gotten A-Rod type offers!
The list is long and distinguished!
You can interpret Lee’s contract however you want to but the bottomline is if the player really IS about the money he would have taken the guaranteed money and not cared where he went!
Lee didn’t do that he got a comparable salary (he WAS STILL the highest paid player until CC resigned with the Yanks) and went to where he liked to be instead of the most money!
Because those few guaranteed million he gave up meant squat to him. He got plenty enough and the little bit he gave away was not going to make him happy someplace he didn’t really want to be!
If the Mets could save the 25 million or so that it will take to bring the fences in to keep Reyes, would you do it ?
And don’t answer the question with “why can’t they do both ?”
aren’t they selling brick at $500 a pop?? this franchise is just pathetic..
If people keep feeding their pockets then they can’t complain.I’m not saying you are,just saying.I haven’t gone to Citifield since it opened up,and I refuse to go back as long as a Wilpon or Katz owns the team.They charge Yankee prices for a Royals product.
So basically you don’t care if they suck because your not going no matter what happens!
More likely though is you WANT them to suck because you think that hurts the Wilpons and forces them to see so you support any plan to RUIN the mets to get what you REALLY want, Wilpon gone
Did I get any of that wrong?
As long as Wilpon owns the team,I am not going back there,whether they suck or not.” More likely thou you want them to suck”. There you go again with your dumb ass assumptions. I would tend to think that you want them to suck so you can once and for all prove you’re right since you fail far too often for someone who thinks his knowledge of the game is higher than everyone elses.You’re the same guy who believes the 86 Phillies were better than the 86 Mets as head to head would suggest like you said the Mets were as good as St Louis this past season since head to head suggested so.One day one of your assumptions will be correct as the law of averages will eventually play in your favor like a broken clock is right twice a day.
What about the $60 million they are saving on Krod, Beltran, Castillo and Perez? Where did that go?
Exactly,
Bottom line there is ENOUGH MONEY TO TRY AND CONTEND/COMPETE.
And Alderson isn’t even bothering to do that.
To lawyers and debt on the stadium.
I’m telling you, the Mets are broke. If they weren’t, they would pay back the $20MM they owe the league.
Well Francis I’ve never really cared where the Fences are!
In fact I have always said I don’t care if Wright has only 20 HRs provided he keeps his average close to .300!
Doing that would score just as many runs, get just as many RBIs on his record as 30 HRs would and would be a lot more effective in the long run to making us a winner!
But no matter what they spend to bring in the fences, They are getting more seating out of it that should offset any money they spend on that project.
That is if they still have any players anyone wants to see once reyes goes away!
Metsie, Wright hit .307 in ’09 and he scored 88 runs and had 72 RBI. Batting average isnt what scores runs and drives in runs.
man o man you’re a dunce.
Batting average IS what drives scores and drives in runs because if you can’t hit than not only are we not gonna see those exciting playoff game finishes we had this year but if you can’t hit you can’t play baseball. So it starts with that.
And you left out some info about Wright in 2009. Sure he had only 72 RBIs but he also was hurt for awhile that year and had only 10 HRs. So 72 RBIs with 10 HRs is pretty good considering it wasn’t his best year and his first season dealing with Citi Field.
And oh, most of are players were hurt that year. 2009 was the year the starters, the backups, and the backups for the backups got hurt. So all things considered 72 RBIs in and of itself wasn’t bad for a guy with 10 HRs and hurt part of the year.
So you left a LOT of info out and just relied on random number.
“Batting average IS what drives scores and drives in runs”
good glad you said that because I would LOVE to hear your explanation of why Adam Dunn routinely scored 100 and drove in 100 hitting .240. and how Carlos Pena scored 90 and drove in 100 while hitting .227.
let me repeat that, .227.
Because there are powers hitters who walk a lot, there are singles hitters who walk a lot. There are power hitters who don’t like to walk, there are singles hitters who don’t like to walk.
And people who walk a lot or see the ball well or who have a good idea of the strike zone were probably born with a good eye and always played that way.
It has nothing to do with a brand new magic, scientific formula or a brand new magic statistical epiphany by anyone.
It’s the way it’s always been.
I think there was a guy named Gorman Thomas who played on the Brewers in 70s and 80s who walked quite a bit, struck out a lot, and hit a lot of HRs.
The Brewers even had a catcher named Darrel Porter who walked a lot and was a good hitter with a good eye. He even batted leadoff sometimes cuz his eye was so good.
See? Those types of hitters always existed believe it or not – even before saber was in. Isn’t that amazing?
once again, we are talking about BATTING AVERAGE.
your words, not mine: “Batting average IS what scores and drives in runs”
oh okay so it’s now a semantic ‘gotcha game’ which is what saber goons like to do.
I grew up discussing baseball with people of similar common sense and usually didn’t need every ‘i’ dotted and every ‘t’ crossed for fear of leaving an opening.
That’s what’s causing such angst around here these days.
Yeah like i really mean only high batting average is the only thing that is responsible for driving runs. You couldn’t tap into your own ability to use common sense to get a general idea about what somebody is saying.
But saber goons have NO COMMON sense. They live a life of semantic gotcha games that have nothing to do with the original subject
Adam Dunn 38 HRs
Pena 39 HRs
great for a HR hitter!
Now compare those guys to Kemp and Bautista!
Done embarassing yourself yet?
Oh yeah, like Metsie just mentioned.
Chris forgot to mention one little thing when he said Adam Dunn and Carlos Pena scored a lot and drove in a lot with low batting averages.
They are prolific HR hitters! And prolific HR hitters usually drive in a lot of runs. It’s been that way all throughout baseball history
Unbelievably stupid people are these days crediting some new statistical analysis with observing things we always knew. Like I always said that crap just brings you right back to where you started
Bayonne, no one is talking about home runs.
your words: “Batting average IS what scores and drives in runs”
You don’t think I know that it’s the walks and home runs that did it? YOU said that it’s batting average. You are contradicting yourself dude and totally supporting my argument.
So, like I’ve been saying aaaall along, it’s OBP and Slugging that score and drive in runs. thank you for finally seeing the light. took long enough.
don’t try the “put words in my mouth” angle because all that does is create the angst and name-calling.
So don’t try and be a God damned WISE ASS.
You don’t ALWAYS have to have a great or very good batting average to drive in lots of runs. In as basic a term that I can put it is that sluggers and HR hitters always usually drive in a lot of runs so don’t be a wise ass.
So what was Pena OBP?
What was Dunn’s?
Well Dunce lets look at the 2009 splits shall we?
April .280BA 8 RBI, 15 RS, 21 RP
May .378 BA 22 RBI 16 RS, 34 RP
June .365 BA 12 RBI, 18 RS, 26 RP
July .269 BA 9 RBI, 17 RS, 22 RP
Aug .306 BA 4 RBI, 8 RS, 10 RP
Spet/Oct .239 BA, 17 RBI, 14 RS, 27 RP
Funny how his hiighest run production comes during the month with the highest BA doesn’t it?
Here’s the Cap to the CORNER with you!
well, no, his highest run production came in the months with his highest OBP and Slugging percentage.
You go right on thinking that!
I wonder how much of that OBP was due to his .378 BA?
Option A: Give nine figures to a man who hasn’t played 140 games since 2008.
Option B: Use that money to fill a bunch of other holes that need to be filled, to build a more well-rounded, balanced, competitive team.
I’ll take B, thanks.
The Mets are finally doing things right and you want them to continue to do what they’ve been doing for twenty years. You people are thick.
I’d take option B if Alderson did that but that’s the problem, I dont’ think he will even do that.
If Alderson let Jose walk and used, let’s say for argument’s sake, that the 18 million he would’ve paid Jose for his first year is used to pay the first years of 2 different major league ready starting pitchers that can help this team win in 2012 and combine that with some smart trades or other signings for a catcher/CF……..and let’s not forget how many of the saber goons who are now blaming the Wilpons for this mess, had called Sandy and Co. SMART & Geniuses at the beginning of his tenure……if Sandy is as SMART as everybody says he is then if he let Jose walked than he SHOULD be able to sign/trade for at least 2 pitchers and get his catcher and Centerfield to compete. He should have enough money to do that.
But he won’t do it. If he let Reyes walked but did a remarkable job of filling holes with the money he saves and makes this team a contender for 2012 than i’ll eat my words. But he won’t do it.
I should clarify that the hypothetical number of 18 million saved for Jose could be used to pay 2 good major league ready starting pitchers 9 million each. OR..he can even get three at 6 million each.
He’s supposed to be smart and a genius right?
Yep Option A would preclude you from signing a Hall of Famer did you know that?
Take a look at Ricky Henderson’s numbers sometime!
Reyes is actually BETTER than him!
LOLOLOLOLOL.
I’m pretty sure you just typed that Jose Reyes is better than Ricky Henderson.
Man I hope everyone sees that.
Yep I did and I have the numbers to prove it too!
Soon as JoeD gets around to posting it!
oh lol ok, can’t wait to see that.
in what year did Reyes have a .400 OBP, or score 140 runs, or hit 20 homers, or steal 100 bases, or have a 10 WAR. because I can’t find any.
When has Reyes had 25 years to do that?
Ricky walked a lot which is why his WAR is so good!
You know WAR that counts a RBOE as a better accomplishment than an actual hit where a batter is concerned?
Or did you not know WAR does that?
wait, must be because Reyes is a career .292 hitter and Ricky is only .279.
I don’t think you know what WAR is. Why don’t you show us how WAR figures in reaching on errors?
Metsie will just state that WAR includes reaching on errors but he’ll never even attempt to prove it.
The funny part is, I don’t even like using any of the types of WAR to evaluate players. But, at least I try and learn what they are and how they work before coming to any conclusions about them.
I don’t believe that WAR or any stat that I’ve ever heard of ADDS basses reached by error to the hits/walks/HBP.
I have only a nodding acquaintance with some of these stats but still I cannot see what benefit would be derived by adding in bases reached on error in tabulating these stats. I don’t even see a stat called RBOE that would even provide the number of errors to be be added to the hits/walks/ect.
Metsie claims it every time he discusses WAR but as I understand it WAR uses BA and OB% Both those stats treat a RBOE as an out so where and how does Metsie believe they get added back into the equation?
wOBA does reference errors, but they are statistically insignificant.
What is funny is that RBOE isn’t really new. There are newspaper articles from 1890s measuring it, making it older than ERA.
In WAR, the batting runs come from wOBA which using the following weights:
HR: 1.95
3B: 1.56
2B: 1.24
RBOE: .92
1B: .9
HBP: .75
NIBB:.72
http://tangotiger.net/wpali.old.html
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_to_calculate_war/
Ok guys tell Tango Tiger he doesn’t understand WAR either!
Henderson’s first 9 years > Reyes’ first 9 years.
Wait…..what?
yeah dude. he actually said that.
I don’t even know what to make of that…..
alderson has said: “if we sign reyes payroll will be at around $110 million, if not, less than $95″.. look it up..
He also said he has a version where he could go as high as 115m if he gets reyes for the right price!
WHAT THE HECK, MAN!!! Can we please tone it down here??? Snarkers stop snarking, insulters stop insulting, instigators stop instigating. For the love of God what is it with this hate fest from both sides? Can’t we please just act civil and have a friendly debate without resorting to a mud slinging contest??