3
2011
Mets Had Worst Middle Infield Defense In Majors In 2011
An article by Craig Lerner
I picked this up on ESPN New York this morning.
By one measure, baseball statistician Bill James has determined the Mets had the worst middle-infield combination in baseball last season, at least when Jose Reyes was paired with Justin Turner. Here’s what James and colleagues wrote …
In The Bill James Handbook 2012, Bill James and Baseball Info Solutions track Defensive Runs Saved to see who the best-fielding shortstops and second basemen were in 2011. In short, Defensive Runs Saved is an estimate of the number of runs each fielder saves with his defense, combining John Dewan’s Plus/Minus System with analyses of bunts, double plays, and more to form a complete evaluation of a fielder.
Among all 30 double-play combinations in the majors last season, here are the top five and bottom five ranked by Defensive Runs Saved.
Top 5
Shortstop Second Baseman Team DRS Elvis Andrus Ian Kinsler Rangers 29 Brendan Ryan Dustin Ackley Mariners 28 Reid Brignac Ben Zobrist Rays 25 Troy Tulowitzki Mark Ellis Rockies 16 Erick Aybar Howie Kendrick Angels 15
Worst 5
Shortstop Second Baseman Team DRS Derek Jeter Robinson Cano Yankees -12 Jason Bartlett Orlando Hudson Padres -17 Ryan Theriot Skip Schumaker Cardinals -18 Starlin Castro Darwin Barney Cubs -20 Jose Reyes Justin Turner Mets -22
Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) captures a player’s total defensive value and is comparable to UZR. Due to methodology differences (and the fact that defensive measures are still not 100% accurate), DRS and UZR will disagree on how to rate certain players, but they agree more often than they disagree. In instances of disagreement, it’s best to take an average of the two values and to seek out scouting reports.
In 2010, the advanced metric “Defensive Runs Saved”, indicated that Ike Davis was best first baseman in the NL and second-best in baseball, having saved 14 runs.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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Yeah,
I didn’t even read your article and I know Mets were awful at turning DPs last year. I know Justin Turner just basically caught balls hit right at him and is not that good at 2B, but he’s not awful either.
Mets best infield defense is Reyes and Tejada and now it’s going to get worse.
I don’t NEED Bill James to know this.
It is really unbelievable how the concept of learning about baseball on your own is going completely out the window. The ability of evaluating what you see for yourself is dead and being replaced by a bunch of new androids that only digest information given to them.
I can see why the quality of baseball and basic fundamentals is thrown to the curb. Maybe that’s another reason why attendance is down.
We have a guy here who writes things like “The Mets Season was a Success” or “Sandy Alderson had a Remarkable off season last year”
Does this Lerner critter think he’s kidding people here? Does this guy or kid or whatever have any idea that he’s writing in front of many valuable experienced baseball fans here?
What exactly constitutes a ‘valuable experienced baseball fan’?
I can understand you not knowing. That’s okay.
oh btw since you and ‘any’ always like to talk about other people’s money have you donated any money to the site yourself? Considering all the time you spend here. I have.
I see the movement has changed directions?
“I can understand you not knowing. That’s okay. oh btw since you and ‘any’ always like to talk about other people’s money have you donated any money to the site yourself? Considering all the time you spend here. I have.”
What a coincidence. Alex calls out Kay questioning her donation, and Bayonne is doing the same?
You know why George Steinbrenner was a great philanthropist? Because he never bragged about the donations he made. When you call people out to try and challenge them simply because you know you donated, all you do is appear to be a petty person who is only donating money so that they can reserve their spot on the site to say the most dumb things imaginable.
Quit trying to justify your ridiculous opinions by opening your wallet and then questioning others intentions to do the same. It doesn’t do the site any good, it makes the site look like a club membership and it makes you look like an idiot.
You realize there are millons of people who don’t watch every Mets game right? How do you expect them to know how good or bad the Mets infield defense was/is if they don’t see it everyday?
Shhh…don’t use facts and logic with Bayonne. Those aren’t important to him.
well that, and you would have to watch every other teams games to know about other guys.
Exactly why it is a bad thing to see relative rankings is beyond me.
Only because he doesn’t understand how to comprehend the new stats available so he justs hates anything that can’t figure out.
The brusque, bloviating Bayonne continues with his fantasy rant. When I mentioned that Elvis Andrus was superior to Ruben Tejada, Bayonne started once again with his scorched earth comments. He basically said No Way, No How. He said that Ruben would wind up being better than Elvis. Incidentally, Elvis is only 14 months older than Ruben, so from an developmental standpoint, they are similar. But from a performance standpoint, Elvis wins hands down.
What has Elvis Andrus done?
MLB.COM DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR 2010
ALL-STAR 2010
RANGERS ROOKIE OF THE YEAR 2009
This year Andrus has stolen 37 bases (Tejada 4 stolen bases)
This season Andrus has 27 doubles, 3 triples, 5 homers. Tejada has 15 doubles, 1 triple and no homers.
Elvis Andrus and Ian Kinsler are the best of the best turning DP’s, despite Bayonne’s melodrama and protests. Of course we know what Jose and Justin Turner did, but Ruben wouldn’t have added much.
What about fielding average?
Tejada this year at 2B ranked 99 out of 153 major leaguers. From the MLB pool of all guys at 2B who played 16 games or more, Tejada was ranked at position 40. This year again, Tejada at SS ranked 92 out of 117 major leaguers. If the pool is limited to those who played 16 games or more Tejada was ranked at position 60.
Ruben Tejada is a mediocre defensive player at both 2B and SS. He’s a good kid, but he’s not what will win pennants.
Ruben won the 2B job. Case closed
Everybody here ALWAYS hears GKR and others rave about Tejada’s D.
Yes he has experienced growing pains..as prospects do
Elvis Andrus has 1600 or so career ABs, Ruben has 500+ so see me in 2 more years.
Ruben won the 2B job. Case closed. And he is Jose’s successor although that’s another story and I don’t want Jose to leave.
He is a starting major league player. Period. Case closed. I win, you lose old man.
Someone once said to me “100 Years old doesn’t mean 100 years right” That about sums this guy up
So with Ruben at SS and Bayonne out of facts, we can count on five years of mediocrity and lots of fantasy analysis from Bayonne. The child never quits.
Out of facts? What are you even talking about? How stupid are you, really?
I don’t think if the Mets have 5 years of mediocrity coming it will be solely on the SS. Are you that dumb? What is wrong with you. You hate that you lost so much? I think that’s what it is, you lost.
And why do you call me a whiner? You’re the one that keeps bringing this topic up when I know people are tired of reading about it. You keep asking for it?
Old man, take a geritol, put your teeth in a glass of water and go to sleep already cuz it’s time to move on.
Just like it’s time to move on from last offseason.You should practice what you preach.
Des no disrespects but Ruben is better than mediocre at 2B.maybe at SS he needs to improve which is his natural position but at 2B he has flourished defensively and he even made huge strides offensively.No he is not in Andrus class and probably doesn’t have Andrus range but the Mets can win if Reyes is retained he Ruben becomes the everyday SS.As long as he hits as well as he did when he was recalled which remains to be seen.
The Mets haave 3 excellent defenders in Reyes,Ike and Tejada.Wright has fallen off a cliff with his glove,Bay is a very good LF’er,Pagan is better than he showed last year and Duda is a disaster.Thole is not a MLB catcher so basically even if Reyes is back we have a very weak defensive team.
If we want to settle for less than the best, you win. I’ll take Texas. You’ll take 3rd or 4th place and a lot more kvetching. Whiner.
Listen Methuselah,
Those are 2 unrelated situations. What do you mean 3rd or 4th place? Mets can finish there with your boy from Texas there too. IF there’s no Ruben OR Reyes and you put Elvis at SS for the Mets they’re still going finish down in the standings and still need work.
Did you go through your entire life with your eyes closed? I can’t help but be stunned at how stupid you are for a man or your age.
What i’m saying is that for all your complaining and sarcasm, you want to put a guy with a low upside at SS. He’ll do Ok but the Mets want to get better, not just solidify their mediocrity.
I’ll not insult Ruben, but he is not a person who can more than fill a hole temporarily in our lineup. He makes contact at the bat but he has no power so most of his hits are equivalent to a BB. We need more than that.
By the way, I know you like to bash numbers, but you ought to look at where Ruben stands from an objective position. He’s mediocre with some limited upside. If he plays a lot of games, it’s just an indication of the Mets mediocrity.
Look at his numbers. He is really ordinary. No amount of rose colored glasses will make him a Reyes or a Tulo. He has no muscles and no speed.
LONG BEFORE BILL JAMES WAS BORN, IT WAS A “GIVEN” IN BASEBALL THAT THE SECRETS TO STELLAR MIDDLE INFIELD DEFENSE IS CONTINUITY, STABILITY & FAMILIARITY”
CERTAINLY “TINKERS TO EVANS TO CHANCE” PREDATES THE ALPHABET SOUP CONCOCTED BY JAMES & HIS ELIAS COHORTS.
I’M SHOCKED WE DIDN’T SET SOME SORT OF RECORD FOR MIDDLE INFIELD COMBOS USED AS I DOUBT WE FINISHED EVEN 1 WEEK START TO FINISH WITH THE SAME COMPONENTS DEFENDING 2B & SS THESE 2 POSITIONS DO NOT EXCEL DEFENSIVELY WHEN EITHER IS INVOLVED WITH PLATOONING BET 2 PLAYERS LET ALONE THE MERRY-GO-ROUND WE EXPERIENCED @ 2B WITH MURPHY-TURNER-HARRIS-TEJADA ALL TRYING TO ANTICIPATE REYES’ NEXT ACROBATIC MOVE OR VICE-VERSA. THEN AGAIN THERE WERE THOSE 39G REYES DIDN’T PLAY WHEN IT WAS TURNER-TEJADA TRYING TO MINDREAD MURPHY-HARRIS THE # OF COMBINATIONS IS GEOMETRICALLY MIND BOGGLING THAT ANTONE WOULD BOTHER TRACKING(THE GUARANTEED INEPTNESS0 STATISTICALLY. IT MOST CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE MADE MORE SENSE FOR TC TO HAVE AN ESTABLISHED “SET” TO USE AS REPLACEMENTS FOR INSTANCE THOSE 39G NOT ONLY WOULD TEHADA BE @ SS; BUT HE WOULD HAVE AN ESTABLISHED 2B PARTNER TO BE INSERTED CONSISTANTLY. THAT IS, UNLESS U R WILLING TO ACCEPT THESE BOTTOM 5 RESULTS AS A MATTER OF COURSE.
THIS HIGHLIGHTS ANOTHER CRITICAL NEED BEING EXPOSED SHOULD REYES DEPART. WHO ELSE IS GOING TO MANGE TO INSTANTLY REMEMBER WHERE EACH OF HIS MANY DP PARTNERS PREFER THE RECEIVE THE BALL? SMOOTH, FAST EFFICIENCY IS REQUIRED FOR THE DP. FIRST NEEDING TO IDENTIFY, MENTALLY, THE SPECIFIC NUANCES OF TODAY’S DP PARTNER SLOWS THAT EFFICIENCY PROCESS THE MENTAL CALCULATIONS NECESSITATED IN DETERMINING EXACTLY HOW U APPROACH & THROW THE GB U R FIELDING IN A NANOSECOND IS MIND NUMBING.
LASTLY, BACK TO THAT OLD GASHOUSE GANG SAYING TINKERS TO…
TAKE ALL OF THE COMBOS WE FIELDED @ SS & 2B & CONFIGURE THE ACCURATE DP COMBINATION OF PLAYERS USED @ SS,2B & 1B(DAVIS,DUDA,EVANS,ETC. QUITE INTERESTING, NO?
ARE U DIZZY YET? NO, PERHAPS DAFFY?
THE “GANG” REFERENCE STOPS THERE.
Thank you. I will never understand why he is so opposed to new data and information that will only aid in analyzing a players performance and help avoid costly missteps and bad decisions in the future.
Alderson has already many many bad decisions already starting with last off season. The guy practically sat back and waited for his own team to fail and fall out of the race this summer and the way he’s handling Reyes is awful so what the HELL are you talking about.
Outside of the fences and Collins the man is dong a LOUSY job so far. Why don’t you start off by attempting to deal with REALITY first. You can’t even think for your yourself. You don’t even know what your own opinions are and even if you did you wouldn’t trust them anyway.
He had done a LOUSY job so far.
Hey Bayonne -
With all due respect, Alderson inherited quite a mess, not to mention coping with the loss of his father shortly after he took office.
Burdensome contracts: Bay, Beltran, Castillo, Perez, K-Rod. Sandy’s work resolving K-Rod’s contract was near perfect. Ditto for Beltran, who was a knee-twist away from the 60-day DL.
What Sandy did well:
- Eliminating K-Rod’s contract and netting two serviceable arms.
- Trading Beltran for a blue-chip pitching prospect in Wheeler.
- Hedging bets on Capuano and Young. Capuano stayed healthy and pitched competently. Young was our best pitcher when he went down.
- Locking Byrdak up for another year.
- Snapping up Beato on the Rule 5 draft, with dividends forthcoming.
The only thing that Sandy did that irked me was not re-signing Takahashi. The guy could start, provide middle relief innings and was 8-for-8 as a closer with no hystrionics. And he appeared quite comfortable in a Met uniform, aaaaand he is a lefty & would’ve complemented Byrdak perfectly. In fact, I saw Taka shut the Mets down after we ripped Dan Haran apart in a game versus the Angels.
The key to understanding Sandy requires the exercise of patience, a quality in which many Met fans are in short supply.
What Sandy did well:
- Eliminating K-Rod’s contract and netting two serviceable arms.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? 2 SERVICEABLE ARMS??
- Trading Beltran for a blue-chip pitching prospect in Wheeler.
WHILE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PENNANT RACE IS CALLED GIVING UP.
- Hedging bets on Capuano and Young. Capuano stayed healthy and pitched competently. Young was our best pitcher when he went down.
4 STARTS?!? REALY?? CAPUANO WAS THE ONLY BRIGHT STAR FOR SANDY THIS PAST YEAR
- Locking Byrdak up for another year.
HOW IS THAT A GOOD MOVE AGAIN?? THE GUY SUCK!!! HE DID IT TO SAVE TIME & $, ANOTHER CHEAP MOVE WITH SMALL MARKET MENTALITY
- Snapping up Beato on the Rule 5 draft, with dividends forthcoming.
WHICH FORTHCOMINGS?? BEATO WASN’T ANY GOOD AFTER APRIL!!!!
YOU’VE GOTTA BE KIDDING ME WITH THIS POST, but, IT IS WHAT IT IS. LIVE AND LET LIVE I GUESS!
If you think they were in a pennant race, you’re mistaken. The 2011 Mets weren’t in the same stratosphere as the Braves or the Cardinals.
Are you trying to reason with a bunch of 5 year olds again? Neither of them knows what a pennant race looks like.
Right…..but after Ike and Wright went on the DL, and after K-rod and Beltran were traded, the Mets weren’t in the same stratosphere as the Braves or the Cardinals – After that.
They weren’t at any point in the same stratosphere as the Cardinals.The Cards actually have a number 1 starter and before Wainwright got hurt in spring they had 2 number 1 starters,their 3rd best pitcher Garcia would be our number 1 starter.3 great every day players in the middle of the order and a terrific bullpen.We’re not even close to St Louis.
Well, don’t forget our number one starter was hurt too.
And who knows what would have happend if Ike and Wright stayed healthy – Maybe Beltran and K-rod stay, and we add another pitcher, and we battle it out for the wild card with the Braves and Cards.
Those two fluke injuries changed the enitre season – You have no idea how it would have played out if they were healthy.
Think about it: With the season Reyes had, and if you had Beltran, Wright, and Davis hitting behind him the whole year, the Mets would have scored a TON of runs.
And on top of that, if we addded a pitcher, I think we could have been able to battle it out with them.
Vinny did you see the way this team played defense? It was one of the worst defensive teams in the majors.
They cost themselves so many runs with their baserunning mistakes that no good team makes.I mean all teams make bonehed plays but not on the level the Mets make them.
I took into account that Johan was out for the season.Despite all the reports I knew he wasn’t pitching.
No pitcher has ever fully recovered from the type of surgery Johan had. Even Wang took 2 years to get back and he didn’t have a full incision when he was operated on.
Going into spring training I never for one minute thought the Mets would even play 500 ball let alone contend.
We had no idea if Beltran could stay on the field after missing all but 5 spring games.Bay didn’t hit for any power in spring,Wright looked bad until the final week and the bullpen was patched together with retreads.
Alderson had to decide to either keep Beltran and risk getting nothing back for the possibility of staying in the race which they proved time and again every time they went on a modest win streak they turned around and lost 5 straight.
I thought he did a phenominal job getting one of the top pitching prospects for a guy who’s knees could go out at any time and was unable due to his contract to net us any picks.It turned out Beltran sprained his wrist on a swing and went on the DL.
Trading K-Rod was all about getting out from that ridiculous option that the moron Omar gave him.17.5 million for 55 games finished.
Mariano doesn’t make that much and not to mention the Mets blew 17 games in which they lead after 6 innings with K-Rod on the team so that proves right there they weren’t good enough to compete with St Louis.
The defense was hurt by injuries also – It forced players to play out of postion.
And with the bullpen, we could have added a pitcher(or two) there to help us out.
The Cards only won 90 games, so if you had full seasons from Ike, Wright, Beltran, K-Rod, and added a good pitcher at the deadline, the Mets COULD have done it – I’m not saying the WOULD do it, but I don’t see how you can say it would be impossible for them to do.
Look at David Freese and his regular season numbers and put them next to Daniel Murphy. Both were 3rd baseman. Murphy has a better record and less Strikeouts. As for HRs Freese had 10 and Murphy 6. Freese was MVP in the WS but his season numbers not as good as Murphy.
And what mess did he inherit?
He inherited a lineup of:
Reyes- SS
Tejada – 2B (Murphy at beginning of year)
Beltran
Ike Davis
Bay
Wright
Pagan
That’s a mess? Sure seems like a lineup that needs a few pieced to contend to me
What about the pitching? All of that glorious ace starting pitching that Omar Minaya gave the Mets. Why don’t you include any of that? Oh right…because there was little. It was Dickey, Niese and a heap of trash after that. At least Alderson was able to find Capuano on the cheap. Otherwise Pat Misch would’ve been starting games (or if Omar stuck around, probably another season on John Maine and Ollie P…”they’ll be good this year! I promise!”).
Sure looks lineup that couldn’t break a pane of glass the previous year to me.Top 5 worst offenses in MLB in 2010 was the team you just posted Bayonne so yeaah that’s a mess.
Yeah but like Sandy Alderson even said, with a healthy Beltran and a right Bay they would have scored a lot more runs in 2010.
And Jose battled injury and health problems almost all year in 2010.
But of course Joe Diaz never takes those things into account. He more than anyone here says how the Mets suck year after year and then tells me to take a train to Yankee Stadium.
Another guy that’s over 40 and hasn’t learned a DAMNED thing in his life, much less baseball.
But Beltran wasn’t healthy and Bay wasn’t right so why would I comcern myself with ifs. If Willie Mays was 10 years younger the 73 Mets would’ve won the WS against Oakland.Thats the problem with you Bayonne.Everything with you is about Ifs.Never living in the world of reality.
Still trying to think of a comeback for Francesa about RBI being the most important stat.Why waste your time.RBI is the least relevant stat to evaluate a hitter.And you say I haven’t learned anything.Comical.
Tommy2cat: The key to understanding Sandy requires the exercise of patience, a quality in which many Met fans are in short supply. Yes I agree, but it also requires more — intelligence. Some of your pen pals have even less of that. lol
Thanks, Des.
I laugh it off. We’re all Met fans equally frustrated, but for different reasons based on our differing views.
Sandy appears to have the right idea, but no doubt the growing pains will be felt more intensely, at times.
The groundswell of young arms coming up from the Farm provide the best reason for optimism. The ’69 Mets were loaded with young arms and the game’s best defensive catcher and centerfielder. That’s how you win a championship with a team that batted .242 collectively.
I digress, but that’s what puts me on the fence with David Wright & Jose Reyes. Wright theoretically could net us Colorado’s Drew Pomeranz & Wilin Rosario, & Reyes could yield a first-round pick w/a supplemental pick. We wouldn’t then have to worry about our marquis player going down at a critical moment in the season, among other issues.
I guess we’ll soon find out one way or the other.
For the same reasons some baby boomers (and older) prefer to write a letter than take the time to learn how to use e-mail.
The most surprising thing about this is the fact that Mark Ellis is still playing baseball.
I wonder how this looked with Tejada at 2B or Tejada at SS and Turner at second… Maybe it improves?
Why were the Mets represented by the Reyes/Turner Combo? Turner, while a nice bench player, was the worst defender at 2nd we had.
I wonder if the revolving door at 2nd had anything to do with the Mets low ranking? I also wonder how much of this ranking is pitcher related?
I’d like to see what the Reyes/Murphy and Reyes/Tejada combos ranked.
I’ve always thought that while Tejada is a solid fielder, he was greatly overrated in the field. I think mostly because we haven’t seen a real 2nd baseman on the Mets since Fonzie left.
I’ve also believe that Murphy did a much better than advertised job at 2nd. Sure, he’s got learning to do, but he showed good range and made most of the plays he should have.
It’s a small sample size, but many advanced fielding metrics show Murphy being better than Tejada.
I do find it funny that while people tell us that Cano is one of the best at turning the dbl play in baseball, that the Jeter/Cano ranked as the 5th worst.
Murphy better at defense than Tejada?
This is a joke right?
It just gets worse and worse and worse.
Forget reality.
I didn’t say Murphy was better than Tejada…I said “It’s a small sample size, but many advanced fielding metrics show Murphy being better than Tejada.”
I also basically said that Tejada was overrated and Muprhy was underrated. I didn’t say one was better than the other.
I do think Muprh did a good job getting to the ball, fielding and throwing it. Murph’s problems are more about being in the wrong position or weak mechanics. Most of those problems should be fixed with experience.
I”m gonna save you a lot of time,
Murphy should never go near 2B again if he wants a career. He can’t play it. End of story.
Heck, Turner is better than Murphy at 2B.
Tejada is a starting second baseman, and hopefully Reyes is signed and it stays that way.
But Alderson doesn’t want to win so i doubt Reyes is signed so there’s that.
But if the Mets did the right thing and sign Reyes, trade Wright for major league ready starting pitching and move Murphy to 3B only THEN will you have my ear.
3B is Murphy’s natural position and that’s where he belongs.
Oh..and that’s based on advanced knowledge not statistics
Honestly, if I was running the team, I’d keep Reyes, put Tejada at 2nd, put Muprh at 3rd, dump Pagan (and Pelf) and move Wright to Center.
But that move is too extreme to be taken seriously.
wright to center?? wow, how about LF?? it worked for ryan braun right!!
LF would be fine, but we already have a Wright Clone in left named Bay.
I think CF would be a easier adjustment to Wright. You can get a much better read on the balls from center and Wright is still young and athletic enough to cover the field.
LMAO, a wright clone!?>!? LMAO!!!! well, imo it wont happen. but you never know, if scott hatterbergh played 1B wright can play CF right? that’s the moneyballers mentality
Bayonne, Murphy had better numbers than David Freese in the regular season. Murphy can play 2nd base and has more range than Turner.
Murphy has beeter numbers than David Freese for the regular season.
They used the double play combinations that logged the most innings in 2011 for each team.
ahhh, bill james, the biggest sabergeek of them all.. you know, i think once the mets fall out of contention by april i’ll have bayonne and maniac text me the results and boxscore. what’s the point of watching right?? isn’t that the whole concept of the sabers? don’t bother watching, we’ll give you stats..
perfect example, david wright goes 3-5 2 doubles and 3 rbi’s. obp of 600% and slugging 1000%. that is a wow stat line right…
reality, he goes 0-2 in the 2 biggest spots of the game, after a single in his first at bat he strikes out with bases loaded and 1 out in the 3rd then hits for double play in the fith with men on 1st and 3rd to end the inning and the rally. then after the game is a laughter, he produces, mets lose 14-7. yikes!!!!
Maybe that’s another reason attendance is down.
Saber is on the rise, traditional fans are leaving and saber feels there’s no need to go watch games.
Hey, they’re saving money at least.
Yeah, is a real shame. all these ppl who never play proffessional baseball, and if they did they sucked hard at it (billy beane) are ruining the game with their stats are everything mentality.. man, how things have changed
Ya, David Cone and Ralph Kiner sucked
Ralph Kiner?
Ya, some guy who shows up in the booth once n a while during Mets games. He’s some know nothing that told Keith on air that OPS is a better evaluation tool for hitters than batting average.
I’m sure he’s never actually played the game or accomplished anything in his life.
And what did he say about WAR?
Funny how you don’t mention that.
He also agreed with Gary that pitchers not being able to control balls hit in play was BS.
That he really enjoyed the Navy?
I have no idea of Kiner’s opinion of WAR or BABIP because I haven’t heard him mention it. Feel free to show us what he said and when he said it.
He said it that same day – I guess you didn’t pay attention to that part….He said something like he only cared about what that player did, not what a replacement player did – I remember him saying, “what does the replacment player have to do with anything?”
And he agreed with Gary about BABIP, that it wasn’t about luck, or something like that.
Ah, so he misunderstood what replacement player means. A lot of people have that problem.
And no, he didn’t say it the same game as his OPS comment, because I was watching the whole game he said that during and I remember the discussion around here and other places after it happened.
Nope, he said it the same game, I think it was even the same inning.
No, I really don’t think it was.
And by the way, nobody really has a problem with OPS – It’s the advnaced ones like WAR and FIP(which Kiner hated)that people don’t like on here.
And it’s also the type of thinking they have, like clutch doesn’t exist, traditional stats mean nothing, playoffs are random, ect – That’s what I have a problem with, and I’m sure Kiner would strongly disagree with that type of thinking too.
No, OPS gets slammed just as much.
And its all because its not what they grew up with. You’ve tried to say you don’t like FIP but all you can come up with is that it contradicts your predetermined opinion.
Clutch doesn’t exist the way must people use it, playoffs are more random than the regular season, some traditional stats do indeed mean nothing.
Of course, not everyone who uses sabermetrics all like the same stats. UZR, for example, has a pretty big divide with it.
My whole point in bringing up Kiner and Cone is that certain parties like to use that tired, lazy, thoughtless, and debunked line of “real baseball guys don’t use advanced stats”.
I really don’t have a big problem with it at all…..And I don’t really care if Kiner uses it or not. and I don’t really consider it an advanced stat – Maybe if he said that WAR was the best stat for players, then you have a point, but he in fact, said the opposite.
And do I use OPS? No, but that’s just because I like to go more in depth than that – That’s all.
“You’ve tried to say you don’t like FIP but all you can come up with is that it contradicts your predetermined opinion.”
You just didn’t understand what I was saying……And I don’t have patience to explain it to you again.
Your exact words I believe was “it makes pitchers look not as good as they are”.
That pretty much means “it disagrees with what I already believe”.
If you had pointed out a flaw in it (and they are in there, I’m just not serving anything up to you), then you’d have a point.
But no, you’re problem is it contradicts your preconceived notions.
the 1st quote I did say, but that wasn’t my whole argument….why don’t you post the rest of what I said? That was just one PART of my argument.
And the 2nd quote I never said – that’s a lie.
Why don’t you finish it? Go ahead and put it in context.
Never mind I read it wrong….forget that last part lol.
“Everey stat has it’s flaws, like ERA, but the ones that FIP has are SO bad, that it’s useless.
The most obvious flaw is that it counts every ball hit in play as the same. A line drive in the gap, is the same as a weakly hit ground ball to the second baseman. Actually, it dosen’t “count” either one, it just takes it out completley. One guy gives up line drives, the other guy gives up weakly hit ground balls, FIP dosen’t give credit to the pitcher for getting the batter out by grouding out, and it dosen’t hurt the pitcher if he gives up line drive after line drive.
The other flaw is that there’s much more to pitching than K’s, BB’s, and HR’s. Hr’s are a big part of FIP, but a pitcher could give up a lot of HR’s and still be really good. Like a Santana. If not many runners get on base, the fact that he gives up a lot of HR’s doesn’t hurt him that much because the HR’s are only solo shots. while another pitcher gives up less HR’s, but they do more damage because there’s more runners on base, so there’s more 2 run and three run HR’s off him because he allows more guys on – More runs scored off that guy obviously, but FIP won’t show you that.
The same thing goes for walks. A pitcher could give up alot of walks, but still be very effective. Like Gio Gonzlaez.
And K’s too. Tom Glavine, Roy Halladay with Toronto, Tim Hudson, Jurrjens, and Treavor Cahill.
The opposite is also true with these stats. A pitcher could not give up alot of HR’s and still be ineffective. Same for walks and K’s.
So my point is that FIP is judging a pitcher by three stats, that doesn’t always show you if the pitcher is pitching good or bad.
I know that there’s other stats made up that attempt to “fix” the problems FIP has, but they have serious flaws as well. And the fact that they have to keep making up new ones show that FIP isn’t accurate.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/07/mets-prospect-spotlight-chris-schwinden-rhp-buffalo.html#comments
And you responded to all my points, so you KNOW there was more to it than “it makes pitchers look not as good as they are”.
That just shows that you tried to twist and spin everything that I said into something else to make me look bad.
And you say people on this site lie? well, you know what? Your the worst offender.
Not rehashing that, but you can see both of our lengthy responses in there.
Cone talks about sabermetrics in every Yankee telecasts.He even defines what each stat means.It kind of takes away the argument that people who play or played the game could care less about sabermetrucs.
and a lot hate it too, i would probably say most.
You don’t know that. You have no idea at all. You just want to assume it because you think it will add some sort of validity to your “arguments”.
The truth is, players don’t have to understand or like any stat. They just have to produce them.
Yeah I guess Bayonne would think Ralph was an old babbling fool for saying OB% is much more important than batting average.A hall of famer says OB% is more important than batting average so Bayonne can’t use the old BS line that you have to have played the game to understand it.
And Tony LaRussa hates it so pik-a-hall of famer.
I’m with LaRussa on this one. If you can’t hit than don’t bother with your OBP cuz it’s not gonna matter.
LoL that LaRussa hates it. I knew you twisted words from posters and writers here, but now you’ve stopped to twisting LaRussa’s, too?
listen Xtreemliar,
PROVEN liars and masters of entrapment like yourself and that other slimy eel jessep should think twice before posting a weak attempt to try and “get me” cuz it never works:
“On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years, because it forces some executives and coaches and players to think that it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks.”
Tony LaRussa
Let’s add Dusty Baker to the list that thinks OBP is getting out of hand too:
“I’m big on driving in runs and scoring runs,” Baker said. “Guys in the middle should score about close to equal to what they drive in. On-base percentage, that’s fine and dandy. But a lot of times guys get so much into on-base percentage that they cease to swing. It’s becoming a little bit out of control.
Dusty Baker
Put Ron Gardenhire on there too.
“Sabermetrics has picked us to finish like fourth or fifth three years in a row. So you figure their numbers out,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “Numbers are good bases to go off things and try to figure things out, but for every number you throw out there that’s not supposed to work, the human element’s always coming. Bad pitch, guy gets a hit. But he’s not supposed to, still rips a pitch in the gap. Those are all great things and, over the course of time probably prove out pretty good. But I like the human element and I like the heart way better than I like their numbers. And that’s what I’ll always stay with.”
Shoot, this guy flat out said that relying on it too mich will cause people to look solely for walks. Good thing OBP is about more than walks. Phew. Thanks, Bayonne. You just found some “real baseball people” who are agreeing with the basic concept of statistics. Don’t rely on just one. It’s dangerous.
Hey, Vinny. I love Gardenhire. I think he’s done a great job there, and I get that they don’t use sabermetrics as much as some others. That doesn’t mean analyzing their team refutes sabermetrics. We’re talking about OBP, right? Well, from 2004-2010, when the Twins were on that impressive run, they finished 4th in the AL in OBP. They finished 11th in SLG. They finished 8th in runs scored. It most always works out because are the two components that best produce runs.
Batting average measures hits alone, which is included in OBP and obviously SLG%, so it’s just stupid to think that people who promote OBP only care about walks. And what Tony and Dusty said was just a warning against that. OBP can be dangerous if you rely on it so heavily, you stop swinging the bat. But no one has ever supported not swinging. Just plate discipline, that’s all.
I know you know that, I just don’t understand why some others don’t. Or maybe they just refuse to because their heads will explode if they found themselves agreeing with a sabermetric principle. Either way, it’s just ignorance.
I don’t get your point about the Twins. You don’t have to use sabermetrics to know getting on base is good – We all know it is. I mean your never going to hear anyone say “Hey, let’s try not to get on base.”
I just think that some people are going way overboard with it, and that’s exactly what LaRussa is talking about…and that’s all anybody has ever really said. Because Like I said before, nobody is going to say it’s a good idea not to get on.
Exactly. That’s why I don’t get that lunatic saying that LaRussa hates OBP. It’s stupid. No one hates OBP. But no one (at least as far as I can see) loves OBP to the extent that they wish the hitter never swings and just waits for four balls. No one likes a Luis Castillo. And there are people here who either don’t get the concept of OBP or try to paint OBP as simply waiting for walks, and they’re very obviously wrong.
LaRussa and Baker were 100% right. If OBP is relied so heavily that the outcome is what they’re warning against, then yes, it’s dangerous. But no one does that and no one proposes doing that, despite the ramblings of a few “real baseball” people.
Still waiting to see where he hates it. I see him saying over-reliance is dangerous and that people shouldn’t look solely for walks. Which is true, and has always been the case. Let me see how you twist Dusty’s words below..
He said it’s one of the most dangerous concepts of the game last few years.
It doesn’t sound like he’s a big fan of it….but that’s just me.
He also said it was about looking for walks, which has been proven wrong frequently.
And I guess you think Ralph was also an old babbling fool for saying WAR was a bad stat, and agreed that with Gary that BABIP was meaningless?
That you never actually proved.
Alex: “Yeah, is a real shame. all these ppl who never play proffessional baseball, and if they did they sucked hard at it (billy beane) are ruining the game with their stats are everything mentality.. man, how things have changed”
Alex, please provide for me your professional baseball resume? Billy Beane had more athletic talent in his pinky than both you and I have in our whole body.
He knows more about playing the game than you ever will. Unless you were a highly touted draft prospect and we never knew it?
Brian Cashman, Jon Daniels, Theo Epstein never played baseball. Shame, they seem to be pretty successful at this………
Talking out your buttocks, now THAT is crap…………(pun intended)
Psst – what does Billy Beane have to do with the NY Mets organization? Last time I checked he was not on staff? Did I miss a PR?
you did miss a PR because Billy Beane was interviewed when Alderson was hired and said his new favorite team was the Mets.
And considering the ties between the two, YES it’s not unusual that you see him mentioned a lot here lately.
Your just as nasty and confrontational as anybody else can be when responded so again I would suggest to put your fake halo back into your dresser.
Thanks, coming from you that’s a confidence boost.
So now, responding on a comment board makes be confrontational because I have a differing opinion. Funny I’m capable of making a point without calling someone a name, or a derogatory adjective.
Billy Beane is still not a member of the NY Mets organization and the names I listed have been very successful with the teams they have been associated. One more thing, never once claimed to wear a halo, but suggestion noted, and laughed at.
Don’t forget Frank Cashen. He was an executive at a brewery before he got a job in the Orioles’ front office.
Umm what?
Maybe its because the economy is in the tank and professional sports are not a priority for some people right now? Perhaps the person that 10 years ago attended 10 games or more per year can now only afford to go to 2 or 3 games?
How many games a year do you attend?
ohh, and btw, all these sabercrap is just well, saber crap!!!!!
Justin turner is not that good didn’t need the great Bill James to point that out with some meaningless stats from his computer. Isn’t his 15 minutes up yet.