The players they got that they later traded remained MORE VALUABLE because they were players who were PROBABLY on someone else’s list who they wanted but could not get because they were taken before they picked!

And that is true for ANY round!
You say the Phillies did it with HOMEGROWNS yet only 4 of the guys they have were actually taken by the Phillies in the Amateur draft!

This is LIE one of your theory because you say 20 when of those 20 only 3 or 4 of them were actually taken by the team in the draft.

You want to include the TRADED for as Homegrown then you have to show WHERE they got the guys they traded for them!
Show they got them when they picked 30th noth 1st through 5th!

A guy taken in the top 5 of any round retains his value longer than a guy taken in the last 5 picks of that round!

Because the guys that got taken in the top 5 were probably also on the list of the teams that picked after them. And THATS why they will be accepted in a multiplayer trade for a better player which you now want to call HOMEGROWN!

You need to EXPAND the definition of home grown because without that your HOMEGROWN theory blows up since all the teams you claim did that only drafted at kost 5 of the guys they include in their CORE!

It’s a typical tactic used by those with a WEAK point that need to make stronger by including and categorizing players with a quality they don’t really have but you put importance on!

Like saying all guys with good OBP are GOOD HITTERS regardless of what their BA says is true!

Stats don’t lie Tag…PEOPLE do!
And categorizing those guys as HOMEGROWN merely because they never got into a MLB game before the trade is LYING!

All because you need to make MORE homegrowns to make your theory work!

Now if you want to prove your point show that the guys you say are HOMEGROWN were not gotten via trading players they got in those drafts where they picked REALLY HIGH (top 15) of the draft!

You want to say it’s all about the draft then show how many were ACTUALLY DRAFTED not just traded for because they screwed up took the wrong guy but were smart enough to trade for him with thier mistakes later on!

OR prove that they knew ALL ALONG that the guy they took in the 5th round was first round quality by showing how all the guys they took before him were better than him and did more so that they had a good reason to wait until the 5th round before they took him!

Otherwise all you have is a LUCKY PICK that was there because they picked ahead of 90% of the rest of the teams and merely got the best 5th rounder available because of WHERE they picked not because of how much they knew!

And if you can’t do that your HOMEGROWN theory falls apart!

I showed where those guys picked and ALL of them spent more time in the top 10 of the draft than other teams!
And because of that they had 5+ years of the top 1st rounders and if you can’t draft 5 core guys with that kind of position and chances your not smart your incompetent!

WHERE THEY DRAFTED? That’s why those 5 teams became successful? Simply because of WHERE they drafted?

It makes absolutely no difference WHO they drafted, just WHERE they drafted right?

Like drafting JD Drew at #2 of the first round had a lot to do with the Phillies winning the World Series. Of course it did, he never even played for the Phillies but he was the MVP right?

To not even attempt to provide a few of the names on each of those teams you brought up and claimed (erronously) finally won because they “sucked for 10 years,” who were big time contributors is to admit that your wrong. Your opinion is so worthless on this matter that your not even going to TRY to defend it. Your not even going to attempt to provide even one single example for just one of the five teams YOU claimed finally won because they “sucked for 10 years.”

It’s not WHERE you draft genius, it’s WHO you draft.

Now I gave you four names on the five teams that YOU cited and YOU couldn’t even provide one single name of anyone else drafted in the top 10 that either played a big role or was traded for someone who played a big role on ANY of the five teams you cited.

Not even ONE!

The ’69 Mets didn’t have one single player who made a big difference who was unavailable to EVERY single team.

The ’86 Mets had TWO (Gooden and Straw)

The Braves had ONE (Chipper)

The NYY had ONE (Jeter)

The Phillies had ZERO

The closest you could come with the Phillies is Utley (#15) and Hamels (#18) Combined record that “earned” those two draft picks, one game OVER .500.

One game over .500 is hardly “sucking for 10 years.” and one or two players hardly are enough to win a World Series anyway.

You tried to make it sound like these teams were pulling guys out of the top ten every year and had 5-10 of them and you can’t even name ONE on any of the FIVE teams YOU cited.

I asked you, as you often do, to PROVE IT and you didn’t even try. You couldn’t back up your opinion with names so you tried to baffle with BS.

Claimed it was because of WHERE a team drafted when you provided ZERO proof that WHERE they drafted made any difference whatsoever in winning a World Series or two or three or whatever.

Your opinion on this matter is a completely unsubstantiated by FACTS.

It’s a complete fallacy. Pure unadulterated hogwash and nothing screams that louder than when asked for names, you weaseled out and provided ZERO in the way of proof to back up your false assertion.

“It would be nice if LaRussa knew what he was talking about” Donal October 27, 2011 at 11:00 am

Which team in the MLB do YOU work for to know these things huh?

What makes you more experienced than LaRussa on the goings on of the MLB?

You know those guys you HOPE are smarter than you?

And if the guy becomes an allstar that doesn’t make them SMARTER for taking him in fact it makes them JUST AS DUMB as the rest of the MLB for waiting until the 50th round to take the guy they SHOULD HAVE KNOWN was good enough to be an ALL STAR!

YOU have no facts, Hell you call anyone who plays his first MLB game in a team UNI HOMEGROWN!

Sine I do NOT subscribe to that cockamamie definition of homegrown that you do (To me Homegrown is DRAFTED and Started ONLY)

You list all the guys who you consider homegrown, and who they were traded for and tell me that NONE OF THEM were drafted in those years where they picked at the top!

And YES draft position is important in EVERY round!

The last pick in the 1st round is not all that much better than the 1st pick in the 2nd round! But that #1 picking team gets an extra HIGH value pick than the last picking team does.

If you pick in the top 5% of every round it means you can take the top 5% in EVERY round!

Sure the 12th round means a lot of the guys left have been skipped over 12 times by the MLB, but by the time that round comes up the guy who has first choice is STILL going to get the better player than the guys who pick later!

And if you don’t believe that then I guess there is no point arguing with you and I hope for you they do it your way so when it fails we won’t have to hear about this warped idea about IMPORTED HOMEGROWNS and Saved Draft picks again!

In fact I hope Sandy does cut payroll, trades Wright and does everything that Jessup and Donal want to do!

Cause when he gets fired for losing another 70 Mil WITHOUT any more salary to cut and we are in last place anything those guys say will be laughed off of MMO!

And if they try to suggest or defend him for that they will get pretty much the SAME TREATMENT the Omar defenders got USING THIER STANDARDS for judging Omar!

I can’t wait and will probably not post very often until that happens!

But when It does I will come back with a VENGEANCE!

Ahh so we have changed the definition of HOMEGROWN I See!

Even a guy you traded for yesterday and started today is HOMEGROWN provided he plays his first MLB game in their Uni!

Is that how your trying to make your point work now that I posted the draft positions of all the teams you say built correctly?

And where did they get the guys they used to trade for them?

That’s it. Keep repeating the lie. Maybe that one will come true.

Every time it is spouted.

“LaRussa said it is happening in the MLB NOW!

Prove he is wrong and that it NEVER happens!”

As has been explained to you over and over, that is not how it works.

“If not go read Tango’s link I provided in the other thread to see exactly how much you know about what people who follow Sabers believe!”

You mean what you think one guy believes. How can one sentence be so wrong in so many ways?

Is that betetr?

I think we get the idea here that your not even going to attempt to back up your false assertion that it took “10 years of sucking” in order for the ’69 and ’86 Mets, current NYY, Phillies and Braves to finally win.

When the originator of an opinion doesn’t even attempt to back up that opinion with any true examples it just goes to show how truly worthless that opinion really was.

That’s exactly what I expected.

The mere fact that say the Phillies for instance average draft slot from 1995-2007 was 15th doesn’t mean anything if they didn’t get top shelf players that weren’t available to most Major League teams that then carried them toward their World Championship.

For example did it help the Phillies win a World Series because they drafted JD Drew #2 in the whole country in 1997? Of course not. Know why? Because he refused to sign with them.

How in hell did that help the Phillies win a World Series?

YOU made the false assertion that it was because of “sucking for 10 years” that those five teams YOU cited were then able to pick up players other teams had no shot at that carried those teams on to victory.

I’ve asked you repeatedly to back up your statement by providing some facts. You came back with Neil Allen. Neil Allen was drafted in the 11th round. Every single team in MLB could have selected Neil Allen 10 times, even the defending World Champion could have done that.

If the defending World Champion could have selected someone later used in a trade 10 times how in hell can that be an example of a team getting a great player by “sucking for 10 years?”

I guess we just have to face facts that your opinion on this matter is a fallacy, a hoax and pure hogwash.

Personally I have always found that it’s the combination of differing stats where I really get a truer picture not the exclusion of them.

NYY also had 7 players that were obtained with products of their farm system before they came up to the Majors.

NYY had 48 total players appear in at least one game, 20 were pure homegrown, 7 obtained by guys who never wore anything but a NYY uniform before they were traded.

27 out of 48. 56%. 2011.