25
2011
The Most Tradeable Mets?
An article by 
There are three ways for a team to build: free agency, drafting and trading.
With a stated budget of just over $100 million, Sandy Alderson’s free-agent options are limited, especially if he dives into the deep end of the Jose Reyes pool. He’ll be looking to plug holes in the bullpen and rotation with middle-tier talent. Cheap bench players are always available.
There is potential in the minor league system, but it is the lower minors, which the Mets want to avoid delving into. Solid drafting is the best way to lay the foundation and the Mets are making progress in that direction and figure to keep their young talent.
That leads us to trading, and things aren’t rosy in that department, either.
David Wright, who has been in decline the past two seasons, has the biggest upside and a manageable contract. He’s a cornerstone, especially if Reyes leaves, and the player who intrigues other teams, believing a change of scenery would benefit him. A Wright trade would mean serious re-building for the Mets, but he’s the player who would bring the most in return.
Trading him is a franchise-defining decision.
Other than Wright, what is the market value for some of the others?
Josh Thole: Young, inexpensive with more potential than production. Thole did not perform to expectations and wouldn’t draw attention from a team wanting a starting catcher. Teams needing a catcher have more experienced options in the free-agent market. It’s hard to believe anybody would trade for him to be a starter.
Ike Davis: Could be attractive, but after missing much of the season with an ankle injury he represents a risk. Young, inexpensive and loaded with potential – if healthy – he’s the ideal piece for the Mets to keep and build around.
Ruben Tejada: Impressed a lot of scouts and would draw interest, but the Mets will need him at shortstop if Reyes goes or at second if he stays. He’s not going anywhere.
Jason Bay: You must be joking. People are saying all the time that the Mets should trade Bay. What planet are they on? Bay has not played well since signing as a Met; he’s been injured and has a hefty contract. Can you see the line forming now? The Mets have two hopes for him: 1) he stays healthy and meets expectations to salvage the final two years, or 2) if that doesn’t happen, then he doesn’t get the necessary at-bats and games for his option to kick in. Two more years.
Angel Pagan: Regressed this year to the point where the Mets might not tender him. He’d sign somewhere as a bench player, but nobody will trade for him.
Lucas Duda: Scouts love his power potential and he played decent defense in right field. He would be part of a larger package, but wouldn’t be someone teams would want to trade for to build around. Besides, the Mets’ outfield forecasts as weak, so he’s getting the full time shot in right.
Fernando Martinez: Had been sought after in previous years, but is a fragile, injury risk whose value has declined. Too bad they can’t turn back the clock two years. If the Mets can swing something with him, they should do it, but his real value to them would be to stay healthy and reach his potential, which is becoming less and less likely.
Johan Santana: Nobody knows how healthy he is, which means he’s staying put for now. Should Santana come back and be solid and healthy in the first half, you could see the Mets trying to deal him if they aren’t in contention. Even if they were, they might pull the trigger on a trade to free up salary. This bears watching, but not until June and July.
Mike Pelfrey: Has a manageable contract and is young. He regressed this season, but there’s still potential for the right pitching coach. But, if they trade him, he would thin out an already spotty rotation. The Mets will keep him and hope he improves. If not, then it might be time to cut him loose. There could be takers at the trade deadline.
Jon Niese: Coming off an injury and who knows if he’d pass the physical? Mets love his potential, so he’s not going anywhere.
R.A. Dickey: Teams don’t trade for journeyman knuckleball pitchers in the off-season. They wait for the trade deadline. He’s been arguably the Mets most consistent starter, but he’s a No. 4 according to most scouts, maybe a No. 5. He’s somebody a contender might covet in July, but he’s not going to bring back a lot of talent.
Dillon Gee: Surprised a lot of people this season. But, the pitching deficient Mets won’t move him. After a great start, Gee had a rocky second half, which makes him a question to the Mets, not to mention any team with interest.
Bobby Parnell: Young and a power arm is always attractive. Not so much is his command and thought process on the mound. There are no assurances the Mets will make him their closer as there are numerous reports saying that is their greatest need. If Parnell can’t convince the Mets he’s closer worthy, then what must other teams be thinking? Right, he’s a bullpen piece who needs a lot of work. Not a long line here.
So, if you look at the Mets’ trade options, dealing Wright would net the most, but you have to wonder what considering he’s several years removed from his best season. There are limited other options to deal and they are most suited for moving at the trading deadline.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 26 | 18 | .591 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 22 | .511 | 3.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 24 | .467 | 5.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 25 | .405 | 8.0 |
| Marlins | 13 | 32 | .289 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/21/2013
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IMO, pelf would really benefit (OK, it couldn’t hurt him any worse) from a new PC. too bad the team didn’t get one. best hope it that someone like Bones is going to take a more active role, bwfore pushing Warthen aside? But, who knows.
Anyway, this really does point out that the only logical trading piece is Wright. the real questions become, 1) does the team anticipate trying to keep him LT past 2013 (when his contract expire?), and 2) will some team blink and give back a lot of young talent for him?
if the answer to 1 is Yes (and right now, I would not bet on it) then #2 almsot doesn’t matter. But, if the answer to 1 is No, or probably not, then it all hinges on #2. he won’t get traded just to move him, but in the right deal? Why not!
You can look at Texas and see how it can work out when you trade a pending FA that multiple teams want (teixara). that certainly worked out for them.
Imagine if (here we go) Omar lands in LA Angels as new GM. They need a 3rd baseman. Wright or Murphy could be attractive to them and we posibly get one of their CF’S.
well done. and immensely depressing
if i’m sandy, everyone on the roster is tradeable except ike davis. and reyes if he signs him. i’d start asking what i’m getting in return for Dwright
Why not Ike Davis? Matt Cerrone thinks that maybe the Mets need to consider it.
A dearth of positional players to begin with. For all the exciting pitchers people are talking about, there aren’t a lot of hot fielders. A lot of one dimensional guys playing out of position and such.
Ike is the one guy we have in the field who is here and now and we control for years.
Matt Cerrone thinks that maybe the Mets need to consider it”
ha!!!
Very insightful response, Alex.
i am hoping you were being sarcastic… quite frankly, WHO CARES what dbag cerrone thinks.. if you do, go to mets blog, i am sure you’ll like that site and all the positives as-s kissing that goes on in there..
Alex, let’s get real. You didn’t provide a response. Why not Ike Davis?
he’s gonna be a stud for years to come, he has potential to be a 280-300 hitter capable to hit 25-40 hr’s per year with 100+ rbi’s, most importantly, the man is clutch, something most middle hitters in the past years have lack of. he can play gold glove defense for us at 1B, saving many errant throws from our corner infielder, why would you wanna trade a guy like that?? where are we gonna replace that type of player, at the same price for years to come?
If we follow the plan Jessup wants not only would Ike be going but Wright, Duda, Turner, Tejada, Murphy, Reyes, Pagan, Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey, Gee, and maybe even Harvey and Familia because it’s all about 2014 or 2015 and none of those guys will part of that YEARS FROM NOW plan!
Even Havens will be gone by then because we are giving up to be the Pirates and wait until Podesptas Excel spreadsheet does it work 5 years from now!
Alex,
Des has had a bug up his butt about Ike Davis and Ruben Tejada since day one with those kids.
Ike Davis is going to be a 30-40+ HR, 100 RBI, .280+ AVG guy for years to come AND a very good fielder and you need excellent defensive 1B to help keep your infield together.
Davis and Tejada are both going nowhere and are major starters/pieces of the puzzle for this team for years to come. And hopefully Ruben is on the right side of the infield with Ike.
bayonne, i thought he was baing sarcastic about cerrone, then i saw he wasn’t, who the f*** what cerrone thinks? omg, he said we should consider ike davis to be traded? i don’t see where having tejada at 2B, reyes at SS, davis at 1B is a bad thing??
Alex, I was being sarcastic about Matt and you. Give me an answer — not a shrug. You’ve made strong position. Just defend it.
Bayonne — If Ruben is a long term solution, we are in real trouble. Watch the World Series and see two really accomplished guys at SS. One is Ruben’s age but is vastly more accomplished.
Watch the World Series and see two really accomplished guys at SS”
WHAT!?!?!?!?!!?!?!!?!?! ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?
Alex, I’ll try one more (and last) time. Why should Ike be off-limits to a trade that might bring more value? What’s your answer?
you really are that THICK. You just hate Tejada because I predicted he would become the Mets 2B and he has.
HE’S IN HIS SECOND SEASON AND HAS ABOUT 500 career ABS!!!!!!! And he hit almost .290..even better and sooner than I would have ever thought.
AND HE’S 21!!!! And why the hell are you conveniently comparing a kid who just came up to a SS playing in the World Series. Just pick anybody while you’re at it.
Your just jealous and mad you were wrong and I was right. That’s all this is about.
My God, all the years you watch baseball and you have learned NOTHING.
I don’t want Reyes gone because i think it’s the wrong way to go but if he does go let me remind you that the 3 most successful runs in Mets history happened with light hitting short stops – Harrelson, Santana, & Ordonez.
And if the Mets are in trouble it won’t be because Ruben Tejada is at SS.
You just hate the kid, period. And you hate Ike Davis too. Period.
You LOST and you’re not happy. Your guy still has to play AA while my guy is part of the Mets future, a starter, and will most likely never go back to the minors.
Period.
Bayonne, please watch your blood pressure. I worry about you sometimes. It’s not YOUR guy and MY guy. They are all OURS.
I was comparing the SS position players in the World Series and Ruben.
Andrus is bigger, stronger, quicker, faster, a better hitter, a better base runner than Tejada. If you want to attribute these observations to anything other than objectivity, do so at your own peril.
Andrus has won the following awards while in major leagues:
MLB.COM DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR (2010)
ALL-STAR (American League) (2010)
TEXAS RANGERS ROOKIE OF THE YEAR (2009)
Tejada has won no major league awards.
Case closed.
Case is NOT closed.
Tejada is JUST STARTING HIS CAREER. Andrus is also 2 years older and how the hell did a SS from Texas come into the conversation?
I know how. You lost, your prediction was 100% wrong, I was 100% right and now you’re grasping for straws and now pointing at Andrus because he’s highly visible right now on TV during the World Series.
You’re pretty shallow for a person who’s supposed to have been around.
And team awards are relative to their teams and you should know that since you claim you’ve been watching baseball since the 50s. You certainly haven’t learned a lot.
Tejada is not a base stealer yet you are holding it against him because Andrus is a different type of player. And the fact we’re even comparing the two or that Tejada is even in the conversation bodes well for Tejada.
Andrus has NEVER hit as high as Tejada has already. Tejada hit .284 in 324 ABs. Andrus had NEVER hit .280
The final word is Ruben Tejada has a VERY GOOD chance to be better all around player than Elvis Andrus and most likely will, except for the stolen bases which is not part of Tejada’s game but still a very SMART baserunner and player. I don’t watch Andrus so I don’t know how smart he is.
As a matter of fact BOTH players are still young yet you’ve already ruled out your OWN player on the Mets in favor of a player on Texas and it’s odd since the player on Texas is 2 years older and has yet to hit .280 while Tejada already has.
Seems to be a lot of rooting for players on other teams ahead of your own players on this site.
Elvis Andrus is 14 months older than your wunderkind, Ruben Tejada. I’m sure that accounts for his superior playing and all his awards.
I won’t take advantage of your youth and inexperience any longer, Mr B. It’s embarrassing the lengths you’ll contrive rather than admit you don’t have a good matchup.
Old man,
You were WRONG (again). It’s done with and time to move on.
It’s well documented on this site how you kept insisting since last winter that Reese Havens was going to be the Mets second baseman. And I said Ruben Tejada was the right person be paired with Reyes and would WIN THE JOB despite many here saying at the time that he needed a full year at AAA and that he wasn’t ready. They were wrong and YOU were wrong. He WON THE JOB. PERIOD.
Now drop it, admit defeat (again) and move on. While you’re at it go root for your boy Andrus, who Tejada WILL SURPASS in due time.
Facts don’t deter Bayonne.
Dude what is your problem? What in the world are you talking about? Tejada WON THE JOB. Maybe you don’t know what the word ‘facts’ means?
YOU LOST AND YOU WERE WRONG. It’s DONE.
and you want to keep messing around than maybe some readers new here should be reminded read about when you posted a whole bunch of quotes you intentionally meant to misled the readership as official quotes from periodicals….. and it wound up being quotes you made from several of your own past posts! That is an all time MMO Classic.
And here it is:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/04/mets-cut-brad-emaus-and-promote-justin-turner.html
Readers should click on link, scroll down to where I say “Hey wait a second Des”
..and enjoy the comedy. An all time MMO classic example of a reader INTENTIONALLY attempting to mislead the readership.
So jessep says we’re being unfair to that guy over on the Texas Rangers – Elvis Andrus
But Des being unfair to Ruben Tejada?
Nah, jessep would never say that – only that we’re being unfair to Elvis Andrus.
unbelievable.
Not totally sure what the real argument is here but just FYI
“Andrus has NEVER hit as high as Tejada has already. Tejada hit .284 in 324 ABs. Andrus had NEVER hit .280″
You’re kinda being unfair to Andrus. It’s not his fault he was an everyday player with 200+ more AB than Tejada.
Andrus through 325 AB’s was hitting .283 in 2011.
He had a very bad August, but a very good September.
Comparing a guy with 324 AB to a guy with 587 is very unfair
Bayonne, I think I clearly stated I am not sure what the basis of the argument is that is going on. I was merely stating that your usage of their stats is unfair. You can’t compare a player with 325 ab to a guy with 500+ and call it a day. Because I very easily proved that with as many AB’s as Tejada had, Andrus hit over .280.
I thought your guy was the first minor leaguer caught taking HGH and is now banned from baseball. You know Mike Jacobs.
Remember you were advocating Jacobs while I was pushing for Murphy in the off season before 2010. Back when Ike had just two years in the minors and Murphy had had 12 HR’s and 38 doubles in 3/4 of a season in 2009?
Yes I did push for Jacobs a
and that’s mighty weak that you keep bringing that up. Because you have nothing else. I could be here all day putting holes in all your STUPID second guesses.
Heck, if i never got a prediction about a player wrong (kind of like Alderson with Boof Bonser, Taylor Tankersley, Chin Lung Hu, etc.) then I would be the Mets GM.
But hey, keep leaning on my pick of Mike Jacobs to start the Mets 2010 season. Evidently the Mets agreed with me on that too. Unfortunate for Mike and the Mets it didn’t work out but it paved the way for Ike.
Idiot.
Sure t agee,
- You have pushed for all Mets players that have currently worked out.
- You have ALL the answers for what wrong in the past while completely discounting any famous Mets losses during the course of all this time
- You have all the models ready that the Mets should follow. And right now the models for you are any team that’s made the post season
You just have everything figured out and every single thing that happened in the past is completely explained.
Man you’re one lonely diamond in the rough and some team is missing out on your services because you figured EVERYTHING OUT and every player that is doing well now – YOU PREDICTED IT.
AMAZING!
And here I was thinking all along that you would never come to your senses.
A moment of clarity amid the chaos.
Well it’s a start.
Perhaps someday you might elaborate on WHY you believe my facts are “dishonest.”
That would be meaningful progress.
But nontheless, nice start.
Now I know what monkeyball means,
Monkey ball is blaming the front office for every Mets failure in their history while ignoring:
- A Mike Scioscia HR off Doc Gooden
- A Terry Pendleton HR off Roger McDowell
- A Kenny Rogers walk with the bases loaded
- A Jose Valentin/Carlos Beltran failed AB w/bases loaded
- An Aaron Heilman HR given up
- A Yadier Molina HR
- 2 bad weeks in September of 08
- 2 bad weeks in September of 07
- A Todd Zeile double off the top of the wall
- A baserunning gaff by Timo Martinez
- A blown save by Armando Benitez
- Heck, a blown save by Billy Wagner
- While we’re at it a blown save by John Franco vs. Pittsburgh in 91
- A bad start by Tom Glavine
- Major injuries to major stars in 2009, 2010, and 2011
- Mets lost out on a tight race in 1985 I’m sure t agee can find a reason why the Mets didn’t beat out St. Louis that year and blame it on the front office
Monkey ball is ignoring all of those things and blaming EVERYTHING on the front office, right t agee?
Now let’s have some fun and reverse everything!
- Doc Gooden strikes out Mike Scioscisa, the tide turns and the Mets go on to win their 3rd World Series in 1988
- Roger McDowell gets Terry Pendleton to pop up and preserve a 4-1 victory over St. Louis and the Mets go on to the 1987 playoffs!
- Kenny Rogers gets Andrew Jones on called 3rd strike instead of walking him and Mets gain momentum and go to 1999 World Series
- Carlos Beltran checks swing that wicked curve and the ball drops for a game winning 2 run single and the Mets go on to win their 4th World Series in 2006
- Mets get a couple of timely hits in 2007 and advance to the playoffs!
- Wagner gets a key save and Wright drives in Murphy from 3B and the Mets go on to win their 5th World Series in 2008!
- Mets only suffer a couple of minor injuries in 2009 and go into the playoffs but lose the World Series
- Armando Bentiez retires the Yankees in the 9th in 2000 and the Mets go on to win their 6th World Series in 2000!
Sure it’s all a fantasy but no less a fantasy than what t agee spews out here every single day blaming the Front Offices for all of the Mets failures when the TRUTH is the Mets have had their destiny in their OWN HANDS many times in their history
t agee is just coping out, that’s all he’s doing.
Right. Let’s give more credence to what could have happened than what actually did happen.
Good thinking. Talk about fantasy baseball.
Please elaborate on how these fantasy plays would have prevented us from having 12 losing seasons in the last 21 years and been out of it early three other times.
That’s 15 times in 21 years that we’ve had NO SHOT.
What’s your fantasy for that?
Bud Selig throwing open the doors for every team to make the playoffs?
Face it, over the last quarter of a century those seasons in which we suffered crushing defeats have been the best seasons we’ve ever had during that period.
The guys we’ve paid huge bucks to, to come through in crunch time often became salary dumps and frequently spent their remaining days on the DL while our big expectations turned once again into big disappointment
Fantasy baseball isn’t real. What is real is that 15 times in the last 21 years we haven’t even caught a whiff of post season baseball and 18 times in the last 21 years Shea/Citi was empty in October.
Eighteen times in 21 years, WITH the largest payroll in the NL.
That’s reality.
He was obviously just showing that the Mets lost those games on the field, and I don’t think he’s saying the Mets SHOULD have won those games – He’s showing that it’s not ALWAYS about the GM.
The players win and lose the game, not the GM.
Of course that’s what i was saying Vinny,
If t agee can so blatantly misinterpret what i just read than it just goes to show you how he interprets a lot of other things.
And mine was right out there for everybody to see and he either misconstrued it or purposely misinterpreted what i wrote.
Either way it’s wrong and gives people insight to what’s behind the things he says. Remember that.
Like, is it the Braves GM’s fault that they collasped? Or is it the players fault for not getting the job done on the field?
Right. And if Jeter doesn’t coral a missed cut off and make a perfect flip to Posada the A’s go onto to win a World Series.
If the ball doesn’t hit the top of the fence and bounce right to Jones, who hits Garrett, who hits Hodges who tags out Zisk the Mets go home with a .500 record and miss the playoffs.
If Torre play the infield medium depth Luis Gonzalez bloop single is the 3rd out instead of the World Series winner.
If the Marlins don’t DFA Cody Ross mid season he doesn’t hit HUGE HR’s vs the Phillies in the playoffs.
If Mickey Owen doesn’t drop the 3rd strike with 2 out in the bottom of the 9th the Dodgers tie up the series and go on to win the 1941 World Series.
If buck Showalter knew what he had in the bullpen Cone doesn’t throw 144 pitches and the NYY beat the mariners in 1995.
If Jimmy Qualls……If the black cat……..If Scott Schoweweiss……….If Tom Glavine……..If their was no shoe polish on the ball……..If Harrelson was called safe………If we signed John Olerud and Rafeal Palmero after drafting them……..
If, if if.
I don’t think you get the point……The point he’s trying to make, and that I’m trying to make is that teams win and lose the game on the field – It’s not always about the GM.
The players play the game, not the GM.
Of course the games are played on the field. we all know that. However, the GM is instrumental in the process. He has the important job of trying to set up the team for success and to do its best. The GM is the builder, the architect of the team. If the GM doesn’t search every single avenue out there to bring in the best talent possible, then he hasn’t done his job well.
Sometimes good teams lose and bad teams win. That’s baseball. Who would’ve thought the ’06 Cardinals would’ve won the World Series while the ’11 Phillies got bounced in the first round? It’s all probability in the end.
Of course, the GM is very important. But if you miss the playoffs by one game, or one series, it’s not fair to blame that all on the GM.
I’m saying the games aren’t decided by the GM. Like in you example with the Phillies lsoing, Carpenter pitched an amzaing game, is that Ruben Amaro’s fault? Or did john mozeliak make him pitch good that game? No – The Cards won the game on the field, and the Phillies lost it on the feild – the players on the Phillies should be blamed for not getting the job done, not the GM.
And shouldn’t we praise Carpenter for pitching a great game? Or do we just say, “that was all about probablitly in the end”. What a horrible way at looking at the MLB playoffs.
And if the yankees don’t spend money to get there the IF questions never come up at all!
Yep. That’s monkeyball – What happens on the field doesn’t matter.
The games are won and lost in the GM’s office.
……or is that moneyball? I forget.
I could add a few more brutal losses to this list but it’s a pretty showing of what it’s like to be a Met fan.The one question I would have is besides Johan,who are the major stars that had major injuries? I don’t think you are already considering Ike Davis a major star,maybe an up and coming and Wright to me has slipped to nothing more than an average player.
Pretty good showing*
In 09: Beltran, Reyes, Delgado, Santana, Maine, Perez, Putz, Pagan, and Niese(and its very possible I missed a few guys, since I’m doing this off the top of my head).
in 2010: Beltran, Reyes, Bay, Santana, and Murphy.
In 2011: Wright, Ike, Santana, Pagan, Reyes, Bay, Niese, Paulino, Young, Murphy, and you can’t forget about trading Beltran and K-rod midseason.
Maybe not all the names on here are major stars, but losing ALL those guys really killed us the past three years….and nobody has backups good enough to replace the production that those guys gave us.
And I should mention, that it’s not that these guys just went on the DL for a few weeks, a lot of these guys were on the DL for MONTHS.
if you lose your best players for MONTHS at a time, it’s almost impossible to make the playoffs.
Was Bay and Niese hurt this year? I didn’t notice.
Don’t forget about Alou in 2007 and 2008. That couldn’t have been forseen.
El Duque, Pedro and Trachsel either.
Valentin, Castillo and Wagner as well.
Putz was hurt the year before he got here. Looked good in the WBC though Sheffield got hurt right after he hit his 500th.
In 2010 Murphy got hurt in the minors, Reyes played 133 games, Santana made 29 starts, and it actually helped us when Bay got hurt.
Yeah maybe your right. Maybe its just injuries that caused us to not make the post season 18 years out of 21.
Bay starterd the year on the DL. And Niese went on the DL in Sept.
I was only talking about injuries in the last three years, so Alou, Valentine and elduque are irrelevant.
In 2010 Murphy was going to be the starting 1B, then he got hurt in ST – Reyes did play 133 games that year, but he wasn’t himslef for atleast the 1st month of the year – I’m sure you remember how he played after coming back from the thyroid, right?
And that isn’t true that losing Bay in 2010 helped us – Just look at his numbers compared to the players that were forcred to play because of his injury….and you’ll see that it did hurt us – and Sandy Alderson said last year that if we got more AB’s from Bay and Beltran, we would have done much better that year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/sports/baseball/01mets.html?sq=daniel murphy knee&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=4&adxnnlx=1319685017-gH/cxVbT4oyTut2lJDH+EQ
“With only a handful of days remaining before the regular season, the Mets were on the verge of concluding spring training without having sustained a single on-field injury. But then one faulty base-running play in the middle of a meaningless game on Tuesday brought back all the bad memories of 2009, and the Mets find themselves without their starting first baseman.”
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110330&content_id=17204450&vkey=news_nym&c_id=nym
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2011/08/mets_place_jon_niese_on_dl_whi.html
I stand corrected.
Forgot about Murph getting hurt in ST and Reyes slow start due to the thyroid and Bay on the DL in April.
What I meant about Bay getting hurt in 2010 is that it gave Duda a chance and although he started out real slow, he did hit 5 HR’s when he got it going and that was an important part in his development. The fact that he could do it while we were out of it helped us.
No Vinny I meant the major stars in 2011.I know the team was totally crippled in 2009,only Castillo avoided the DL,which is pretty ironic.In 2011 only Johan could be a major star having a major injury,Wrights not a star anymore,Davis isn’t a major star at least not yet,the jury is still out,Reyes’ injury was not major although yes he’s a big time star.I juries have been a problem for 5 years now but when you have a 17 game lead with 7 to play you can make the argument that injuries can’t be blamed for 2007,2008 is another story because the injury to Wagner cripled the entire bullpen because of all the roles that had to change.
We do not have the type of players to make good trades with.
Other than Wright there is not one guy who is going to get the multiple players back that the BUILDERS want to see come here.
What we have are guys who if packaged could net you a pretty solid Vet that can have an immediate impact.
Thole by himself gets little. Thole Packaged with Parnell/Turner plus a kid like Martinez/Flores/Holt gets you something pretty good. Maybe not an allstar but someone who could be someday.
So I conclude our tradeable talent is not suited to sell deals but buy deals!
And it should be pointed out that if we resign reyes to Crawford money we would be around 80Mil payroll which leaves 30 Mil left for FA signings.
If we spend half that on Bullpen that still leaves about 15 Mil left to buy with and you can get some pretty good pitchers and CFs for that kind of money!
Are any available?
Oswalt may be the best of the bunch in the pitching dept. K-Rod might go for around that as well!
Beltran certainly will likely be below that number.
In the end the way to probably go is to find some guy who is good but is hard to afford for the team he is on, We can trade what we have then to assume his salary and get something decent in exchange!
I don’t know why people think 110 Mil means we have no money to spend. Even with Reyes all it means is we won’t be able to go after the top FAs like Fielder (who we shouldn’t go after even if we HAD the money)!
But if this year is played as nothing more than a lets trade down to the ground and start over then we are not going to get enough compared to what we lose and Sandy will never live to see the end of his plan play out!
trading for pricey but talented guys that the low budget teams can’t afford is a wonderful way to build a good team quick.
So maybe you understand why I am fighting those who would trade off Wright and Send Reyes packing when we could much better build the team short term with the young core we have (Tejada/Turner Davis Harvey Familia and eventually Wheeler)
And in the meantime trade off the extras we can’t play and protect for some other guy who fills the CF gap, is a better hitting or fielding Catcher Maybe platoons with Bay.
I have never said we have to go BUY talent off the FA list there are MANY ways to buy talent as far as payroll goes!
The kids and players we have are not good for SELL deals. They don’t get enough back.
but packaging the extras into groups to get one or two good players to hold the line is quite possible with what we have.
that leaves time to develop youth without the media and fans on your back because of looking like the pirates and maybe you buy the time to build the way everyone seems to want without mortgaging the next 5 seasons!
but there arw short sighted PHILOSOPHERS who are more interested in a syystem not created to win and want to take an eraser to the roster for a what they think are a slew of prospects no team on the planet is going to give them!
Just looking at players we acquired in trades FROM the Major League roster that helped build our 1986 World Championship team you see the following: Sid Fernandez (Carlos Diaz, Bob Bailor) Ron Darling Howard Johnson (Lee Mazzili) Keith Hernandez (Neil Allen Rick Ownbey)
There were other trades that were more veteran for veteran (Foster-Trevino) and others later (AFTER THE TEAM HAD BOTH QUALITY AND DEPTH IN THE MINORS) like the Gary Carter trade for instance but it was still players that at the least touched our minor league system that made the difference.
Gooden, Darling, Fernandez, Aguilera, McDowell, Orosco, Myers, Wilson, Mitchell, Backman, Elster, Hojo, Dykstra, Strawberry and other guys who we developed like Schiraldi, Ownbey Gerald Young, Youmans, Winningham, Fitzgerald and Hubie Brooks who helped get us the veterans.
NOT ONE SINGLE FREE AGENT ON THAT TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No clogging up the roster with guys you can’t get rid of. When Kelvin Chapman and Doug Sisk couldn’t get it together we went out and traded for Teufel (for Billy Beane and 2 other minor leaguers) and brought up McDowell and Myers. We didn’t have to suffer through underperformance and we didn’t have to make a risky free agent signing to address every single need on the 40 man roster. We had the goods in the minors to take care of our own needs or the goods to get the guy that would be the best fit.
Not just wait and see “who can we get” for 13 spots on the 40 man roster every year, year after year, throw it all together and see if it sticks.
You forget about a guy named Ojeda?
Yup, Ojeda and Schiraldi, who went to the Red Sox, played big roles in the ’86 World Series. Advantage that year: Mets.
Ojeda wasn’t a signed free agent…
or were you saying he was traded for? Just wasn’t sure
Teufel was traded for also, not listed
Traded for Billy Beane actually I believe
Schiraldi was traded for Ojeda.Ojeda beat Boston and so did Schiraldi in the series.lol
So here is how t agee assesses things YEARS LATER:
When the Mets won – this is what they did right and this is how it works you see? – NO FREE AGENTS!
When the Mets lost – this is what they did wrong those basterds! And this is what they should have done.
His 3rd “bashing the Mets” post this morning. It’s unbelievable with this guy, he must hate everybody and everything he likes. Sounds like a Yogi-ism but that’s how this guy comes across. A second guessing, self-hating, front-running, band wagon alleged sports fan.
http://www.talkingchop.com/
It’s pretty much the same thing as 2nd guessing Alderson for a horrendous offseason last year only Aldersons signings can all go away when they don’t workout.The other ones the last guy made are still here and not going anywhere anytime soon.
Actually you’re wrong AGAIN because i hated his off season AS IT HAPPENED
Bayonne Mets Fan says:
January 19, 2011 at 11:57 am
I wouldn’t call the off season “Solid” although I know why you blindly all it that.
It wound up getting a little better but not “solid”. I wouldn’t all 2 “high-risk, high reward” pitching signings “solid”. Yes it’s high risk, high reward and not “low risk, high reward” because the Mets have no room for error. None. If any of those 2 pitchers or both of them reinjure themselves the the season could be over quickly. To me that’s high risk, not low risk..and I don’t mean low risk in terms of finance either.
I would have done things differently but it is what it is. Could it work out?
Yes but it’s more precarious than solid.
Well I have to give it to you.You had questions about what he was doing but it didn’t sound like you hated it from that post just that you didn’t think those particular signings were solid.
Yet another insightful baseball analysis by buffoon. Way to avoid the points I made and Bash me as usual.
LOL
The buffoon double play.
Avoids the topic entirely and calls me a bunch of names.
The only time buffoon ever responds to a point is when he misreads it and responds to something someone didn’t say or if he can find a way to bash Wright, Alderson, sabermetrics or people that like or are neutral towards them.
You really should try getting laid one of these years, it would do you some good. Help out with the irritability and hostility issues that are so prevalent in your posts.
The ‘thought police’ is in action again. And again. And again. Much of what was written the past few days was really addressing you and your juvenile attempts to bully other fans. It will never happen but you will be the last to know — as usual.
Wasn’t just directed at Bayonne Des!
There are others who are just as if not more guilty of the issue that started the police action!
Metsie, you make a good point. I said “Much of what was written the past few days was really addressing you….” I meant to imply that the rest was intended for others. Obviously I should have spelled out my thoughts better.
Everyone brings their history and insights into their comments, hence our views will vary. Some folks have a hard time understanding that. Too often when there is a disagreement, the reason to some fans must be HATE. This is total nonsense. Thank goodness there are only a few of us who resort to these character assassination charges.
Well I will say people have been beating up on Bayonne for quite awhile here.
And while I don’t agree with everything he says or how he says it it doesn’t seem to matter if he has a point or not, the Gloves seem to come out and everyone tries to beat on him.
But at least he does try to stick to baseball for most of it and only digresses when the replies digress to Your Nuts, Crazy, and idiot, Blah Blah Blah!
It is the one liner or personal comments that need to get thrown out of here!
You make baseball points and if you can’t then YOUR NUTS, Can’t help you, Out of your Mind etc, responses should be immediatly deleted!
Do that and that will pretty much end the problems JoeD is trying to avoind!
Either make a baseball point response but if you don’t have that and your reply is very little baseball but mostly about the person being replied to It should go in the CAN until people learn those posts are not what we want here!
Talk about Baseball and if you can’t or have nothing to disprove what they said then better to say nothing and move on!
Great post!!
Let me clarify. Great post, tag.
Yeah what a great post.
I’ll go back 25 years into the past and say NOW, after they won the World Series….25 years later…that they way they did things that year was the right way.
Yeah, real great and original post. His insight knows no bounds.
Believe me if Mookie Wilson strikes out in that AB like I thought he was it we would be hearing about 40 years of futility and bashing of this organization by t agee on a daily basis.
Lucky that Buckner missed that ball and Bob Stanley threw a wild pitch it’s only 25 years of futility he reminds us of…….everyday.
But that’s how you build a team guys! That’s how you do it….25 years later!
Step away from the keyboard. If you’re not going to say anything constructive, don’t say anything at all. What you said was the complete opposite of constructive.
Good Advice you should try it!
You’d do best to heed that advice too. You just ramble like a crazy person in a tin-foil hat.
You First!
HOW OLD ARE YOU?
Thanks Des.
There is not a person on this site, saber or traditionalist, who is more UNFAIR when talking about the Mets than t agee.
What is wrong with that guy anyway?
- He wants NO players over 29
- He laid out his plan for a practically all home-grown team for 2013 with NO trades and NO free agent signings between now and then. Oh, and GOD FORBID the Mets sign a free agent!
- He discusses the Mets past as if he always knew that’s what it took to build a winning team when they had success
- He discusses the Mets past as if he always knew what should have been done whenever the Mets have had failure in their past
- Nothing is EVER decided on the field with this guy, ever.
- Everything negative that has ever happened to the Mets always happened in an office and not on the field. Ever
- He is the The WORST kind of front-running, band wagon, back-stabbing fan that i can ever imagine
- He has ALL the answers years later
- The current Mets do everything wrong while any team that is in the post season is the model to follow
- He probably should stop watching MLB baseball and go watch the minors so he’ll be happy because everybody is under 27 for the most part.
http://www.talkingchop.com
your vision of an all home grown team is getting old quickly, you failed to point out how the mets were stocked on good young players because they sucked HARD for about 6 to 7 years before striking gold with gooden and straw, who came up in less than 2 years from the minors.
by the way metsie bobby ojeda wasn’t a free agent signed by cashman, he was traded as well for john cristhensen and wes gardner.
the idea of building up a large pool of good to top prospects is not that you can only have home grown guys on the field.
it is what you have to have on hand if you want to trade for guys like Carter and hernandez when you have the opportunity.
that, and enough of a cheap base that you have payroll flexibility to add a good FA when the right one is available.
Prospects are the commodity that MLB teams run on.
We know that. But that’s not what alex is talking about.
A few weeks ago t agee actually did post an all home grown lineup out here for 2013 that including a trade for a top Reds minor league catcher in the lineup so technically it’s not all home grown but an entire lineup that came up to the bigs as Mets. He did actually do that and he really means it in his fantasy land of Team Utopia.
If that were to be true than that means aside from acquiring that Reds minor league catcher there would be no trades and no free agent signings for the next 2 years including this offseason.
That simply does not happen in the real world. It’s just crazy.
What is crazy is not having a capable Major League catcher. That’s what’s crazy.
My suggestion was to trade some of our young homegrown Major Leaguers and minor leaguers to correct this situation.
Walt Jockety is no dummy. He knows perfectly well you need to have decent catching depth in your organization. He also knows that not every prospect you draft in the first few rounds makes it. He’s also aware of how in demand good young catchers are (just like the NYY, Toronto, SD) so he took the two best back to back in the first round and now both look to be burgeoning solutions for 6-10 years bare minimum.
He probably won’t move one for a year or two but it would definitely be worth finding out about especially since we don’t have enough roster spots to protect minor leaguers in the upcoming rule 5 draft.
3B and LF are areas that Cinn maybe interested in upgrading. At 3B they have Rolen and Juan Francisco. LF Yonder Alonso. At 3B we have Wright, Lutz, Flores and you can include Murphy/Turner. That’s 5 spots on the 40 man roster and not all will be able to stay.
Lutz or even Flores could actually be selected by Cinn in the rule 5 and we lose them for nothing so I’m advocating trading from the farm (or Major League roster) to address an area of obvious weakness for the next 6-10 years and using some players we will lose anyway to do so.
The list of minor league players at each position that I posted (along with Grandal) about a month ago was our options from within moving forward but I am in no way against trading prospects to address an area of need for a lengthy period of time or to provide an, at least medium term upgrade anywhere on the roster but I am definetly against giving away a #1 pick for a 40 year old LFer.
Trades from the farm should be a HUGE part of your overall development plan but not if that means your bench is going to include Frank Cattalonotto, Alex Cora, Gary Matthews Jr and Mike Jacobs or your AAA depth is Mike Hessman, Jose Feliciano, Corey Sullivan or Brian Lawrence.
I’m also completely IN FAVOR of signing type B free agents since they don’t cost you draft picks. Type B’s are good alternatives to type A’s since they cost less, sign for fewer years and frequently play at least as well if not better than type A’s. I’m also a huge proponent of rule 5, career minor leaguer and non tenders.
All sources should be considered and none eliminated but most solutions should be provided by your self and the best place to get the best players is in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds of the draft. The next best place is international free agency.
If your providing yourself with enough talent to keep going then you’ll have enough to address the couple of area’s you didn’t hit at or make upgrades from the entire pool of professional baseball players, not just the few that make it to free agency every year or who’s teams suddenly make “available.”
This will keep us from having to ask “who can we get” every year for 13 spots on the 40 man roster.
That is what doesn’t happen in real life, except in Queens.
Any we already HAVE a large pool of good to top prospects to do what you propose.
None of the PAYROLL purgers want to admit that because they don’t propose to do what you and even Tag say should be done.
They intend to erase the roster and start over from scratch!
Because they don’t have enough names on the baseball America list that you MUST be on or your crap (according to them!)
Prospects? I thought it was Dunkin Donuts Coffee.
Tag if it was built so well why did it take an error to win a WS and why didn’t they ever win again?
Who do you know who has won multiple WS titles, made the playoffs every year but one for the last 17 years and HOW did they manage that feat?
Please tell us since the 25 years is worth talking about at least we know the last 17 can’t be dismissed as irrelevant!
Who has been the most successful team in the last 25 years as far as WINNING SEASON, PLAYOFFS and WORLD SERIES APPEARANCE and TITLES?
How did they do it? 100% Home grown purge the payroll?
That’s a great point Metsie.
It cannot be denied that the mid to late 80′s Mets really didn’t come close to taking advantages of their opportunities.
Only two post season berths (and I don’t want to hear about how they would have qualified for the Wild Card cause everyone, including the Mets, were aware of what it took to make the post season)
One post season was squandered in LA. One barely got out by the skin of their teeth in Houston. (Major respect for being their again by the way) and then needed a big assist to get over the hump in the Series.
How is it that a team like the Cardinals can eek into the playoffs and get a World Championship or the NYY can win as many playoff series as they did in the mid 90′s – the present?
That’s a very good question.
How could the Dodgers be there every year and only get one in the 50′s? or the Braves in the 90′s?
If Pittsburgh plays in the same Division as the NYY they lose by 15 games in 1960 but in a 7 game season…….with nothing to lose……..That’s baseball. One of the reasons we love it so much.
The ’86 Mets certainly had something to lose (similar to the ’69 Orioles) They were expected to win and win big. (dominate in the words of Davey Johnson) and they did regular season wise but it’s always different in the post season. No one could have stopped the ’86 Mets over 162 games but in a short series……..especially playing against a “cursed franchise” who also had the weight of the world on them and a history of collapse and the fear of their fans. Maybe it just comes down to the human psyche. That’s why it’s so important to only think of what your trying to do at the moment, not what you have to lose or maybe it has nothing to do with that. I just don’t know.
’88 I think the Mets were just too full of themselves. Not enough mature professionals. Skating by on talent and adrenaline (among other things)
All you can really do is build a team that wins the Division. Put yourself in the best possible situation and concentrate on winning, not avoiding losing but it always come down to human beings, key plays, missed opportunities, big mistakes, big moments, playing loose and having fun with and confidence in your teammates as well as having the best talent.
Some teams come through in October more than others.
Maybe it’s just a fearless vibe running through the clubhouse rather than a fear of losing. In any event the ’86 Mets were talented enough to get it even if they needed a little help and they were talented enough to win a whole bunch of games from 84-91.
An 8 year period unlike any other in the history of the Franchise.
I’m just saying that if the intent is to build a team that can dominate a decade there is only one team who TRULY dominated the world and one that dominated the NL East. The first bought players and targeted the best players in FA (mostly Pitching) and the other bought their ACE!
Which say to me you BUY pitching to maintain.
Yeah I have no problem with buying the ace.
Just buy him when you already have a realistic chance of winning. not in order to get to a realistic chance of winning.
After your team is assembled (for the most part)
Philly got their pitching from the farm. Hamels and trades for Blanton, Lee, Halliday, Oswalt, then got Lee back in FA.
It’s really from the farm when you trace it back. Obviously they paid the pitchers too but first they had to have the goods to get them. Prior to that they bought pitching in the FA market and it didn’t work. It all blew up on them. They did draft some mediocre-decent pitching but that didn’t work out either.
Atlanta has developed TONS of pitching, traded for more pitching and the one guy who hasn’t worked out was Lowe.
Halliday and Lee were no brainers any fantasy baseball player could have identified as great pickups and both of them were available in trades but again……
They were buying those Aces in 94 and 95 long before they knew what Jeter pettitie Williams and Posada were going to do in the MLB though.
They were STILL buying during Michaels rebuild the only thing they STOPPED doiong what was many propose the Phillies are smart for doing. Trading away kids for big names and depleting your MiL system!
Metsie.
The NYY have primarally gotten their players by the farm or by trading from their farm.
They have then ADDED to that base by leveraging their advantages.
CC, Tex, AJ, Soriano cost them draft picks as plan A free agents.
Who else was a type A free agent that the NYY signed in recent years? Kenny Rogers, Spike Owen, Giambi, Jared Wright, Carl Pavano That’s it.
Nine guys in 17 years. We signed 6 type A free agents in just the last 7 alone. Type A free agency has certainly helped but it has also hurt the NYY quite a bit as well and the idea that the NYY have achieved the success they’ve had based on free agent acquisitions is laughable.
The NYY have spent some #1 and #2 round picks but they’ve also taken back 1st and 2nd rounders by letting guys go. That’s not something we have done all that often.
Just last year the NYY cut a deal with Javier Vasquez to offer him, but have him decline arbitration so they would be able to grab a supplemental round pick. We have usually found ways to avoid keeping our picks.
The difference is like sometimes saving, sometimes spending vs. usually spending and only occasionally saving.
The NYY recent (17 years) success has been fueled by their farm. Nine type A free agents in 17 years but everyone else either through the farm or by the farm.
CC Tex AJ have what 9 years between them. Soriano one, Giambi 5, Pavano and Wright maybe two between them, Rogers and Owens maybe a couple so what are we talking?
About 19 player years over 25 roster spots times 17 years = 425 player years or less than 1 percent and they got back as many draft choices as they gave up so this BS about the NYY being built through free agency is just that, BS
A complete and utter transparent effort to try to prove that giving away 1st and 2nd round draft choices was how the NYY achieved their recent success over the last 17 years.
That is completely and utterly false. They built it and replenished it through the farm. It’s a fact.
Dude you forget their pitching staff that carried them through all those WS wins.
Pettite WAS home grown but was also resigned many times after leaving
Hernandez, Clemons, Wells, Cone, Sabathia, Johnson, Pavano, Gooden, Weaver, Mussina, Grimsley, Irabu, Stanton, Nelson, Rogers, McDowell all were not homegrown and were the pitchers that carried them through all those winning years!
And thats JUST PITCHING! Not all are BUYS but most were, and none were homegrown!
Do I need to list the non pitchers who were buys?
“CC, Tex, AJ, Soriano cost them draft picks as plan A free agents.”
Isn’t that precisely what you claim is the WORST thing a GM could do?
Aren’t they a PRIME EXAMPLE where Those LATE ROUND picks are not worth what they get TODAY and for a few years to come?
Building the Minors is only a good idea when your already losing wholesale and already pick in the top 10!
Until we are there we HAVE just as good a talent as what the Yankees traded away to get all those guys!
They were willing to give up even more picks for Cliff Lee!
Does he fit the homegrown plan?
If your a crappy team and are losing anyway then yes, one FA is not going to make a major change. Two or Three are needed which is what Omar did back then. It worked he made the playoffs! And he built the MiLs as well with all the guys I need to make a macro for because I’m so tired of typing ALL te names who are GOOD and maybe even GREAT players we have here to build around!
No team who has built homegrown has ever succeeded as much as the Yankees have playing what you call MONKEYBALL!
name one team of homegrowns who has been that successful!
Can’t because there IS NO TEAM that has been successful as the Yankees.
Why are we trying to be anything different?
Why be the Braves when we LIVE IN the biggest market in the country?
Why be Oakland? Why be the Pirates?
Why emulate the ones who have NEVER sustained even 5 years of playoffs and say the guys who have made 16 playoffs in 17 years won 5 WS titles in 7 Tries and Won their division yet AGAIN this year is the wrong way to go?
WHY?
THEY PLAY what you try to besmirch as MONKEYBALL!
No one can hang with the Yankees when it comes to payroll. You do know that? Yanks are in another level so to try and be them in that scenario will not happen most likely.
The foundation of the start of their run of Titles began with the building of the farm through Gene Michael all those many years ago. The Yankee run has then been maintained by good free agent acquisitions and trades and the ability to eat the money when bad ones were made.
The Mets are trying to do something a bit different. They as far as I have seen are not trying to be Oakland and also not trying to be the Yankees. If it works they will do something where others will say teams are trying to be like the Mets instead.
In time we’ll see if it plays out.
Very true MNJ.
Back when Gene Michael was laying the foundation for this 17 year the NYY had he wasn’t spending draft choices to rush the process. He was actively building up the farm and supplementing the team with type B free agents like Gooden, Strawberry, Raines, Wells, El Duque.
Guys that didn’t hamper him on the backend.
Trades for Tino, O’Neil, Brosius, Cone.
Drafting guys like Jeter, Posada, Pettite, Bernie.
IFA’s like Mariano Rivera, Rueben Rivera, Hansly Muelens, Ramirio Mendosa.
He did spend a #1 a #2 and a #3 draft choice but he did it 99% by building it up and then filling it out.
Not one or other or both at the same time which is virtually impossible.
Pascual Perez, Rick Cerone 90
Pettite signed as AFA 91
Jimmy Key Spike Owen 93
Velarde, Strawberry, Maas 95
Sojo, Soriano, Sveum, Davis, Strawberry again, Raines, Huckaby 98
Seems to me he bought as many FAs as he always did, just didn’t trade for them with his Kids!
Metsie I specifically said COMPENSATABLE free agents. Guys you have to give up a pick for.
Jimmy Key, Spike Owens and Kenny Rogers are the only COMPENSATABLE free agents in the early years of the NYY revival.
The NYY spent one #1, one #2 and One #3 in those early years of their current run.
Stop making **** up.
Yeah I know what you want to say…
Because your argument falls apart otherwise!
No there was no compensation back then was there?
Doesn’t belie the fact the Yankees spent at the time you suggest they were NOT spending and building up thier MiL system!
You might have a handle on Met History but as for the rest of the league you use as shining examples your very POOR and have created a revisionist history for them to support your NO SPEND theory!
They SPENT!
AND BUILT!
And yes they even LOST while doing so!
But they had people in the seats that paid the bills so they were not in financial troubles when those 5 CORE guys got promoted so they could BUY AROUND THEM!
Teams have been receiving compensation and supplemental round picks for 30 years.
Then I guess those players gave up compensation too!
Pick whichever point you want Tag makes no difference to me…
My point is the Yankees went and got FAs at the time you claim they were NOT and just building the MiL!
Why what do the Yankees have that we do not?
Bigger market? NO!
So what makes what they do so impossible for us?
Have they got a CapitolOne Express card and Vikings and Goths to bully FAs to sign with them and no one else?
Come on Metsie you already know the answer to that.
Really have the Wilpons lost any money on Madoff?
No they got 300 Mil they shouldn’t have…
They lost money on attendance two years in a row.
Would Attendance be where it was if they signed Cliff Lee?
Would it be that way if they had Crawford?
Would it be that way if we had signed anyone worth signing?
NO!
So even that is the CAUSE of the money losing not a symtom of some phantom loss of Wilpon fortune!
You keep missing the point. It is not about Madoff. Madoff if it never happened to begin with has nothing to do with it.
The Yankees are the most iconic and probably highest valued franchise in MLB and probably a top 5 in all sports. The Yankees have been consistent in the ability to outspend any team in MLB for the last decade if not even further back.
No team in MLB has been on par with the Yankees when it comes to payroll.
Players always consider the NYY cause of the paycheck but most of all because of the chance to win multiple World Series.
It wasn’t always like that. Not too long ago players used the NYY and wouldn’t really consider coming here. Now their regarded as a stable organization that has a great chance every year.
The Mets are regarded as an unstable organization where the type of buffoonery commonplace during Steinbrenners heyday can be found on an almost monthly basis.
That and the fact that the organization will go out of their way to embarrass their own players and even the best ones get booed constantly and remembered for just one at bat and that the team has had very little direction and very weak and weasley leadership from the owner on down for most of the last two decades.
Yes the best free agents are just flocking to come here and lose, be embarrassed by ownership and booed by the fans.
I wanted to see if maybe I can better display what I was discussing earlier Metsie. I don’t know if this will do any good but if not we can move past this topic and just let it go.
In a 20 year span ranging from 1991 through 2010 the Yankees spent a combined $2.3 Billion on payroll.
No other MLB team matches that. The next closest to that figure in that span is the Red Sox. They spent $1.7 Billion.
Third on that list is the New York Mets. They spent $1.5 Billion.
I didn’t do every team but I did do the entire NL late last year and I am pretty confident no team will surpass the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets in that time period but I leave the door open to the possibility. If I remember correctly the Dodgers and Braves would come in around 4th and 5th.
The Yankees averaged $31,132,848 more per year over that 20 year stretch then the next closest team the Red Sox and $38,165,285 more than the Mets.
If you took into account 2011 the gap would only widen.
The only thing the Mets have been able to do similar to the Yankees is lead their League in total amount spent in payroll during that stretch but I won’t even try to compare what doing so has gotten the Mets compared to the Yankees.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&key=0ApxE2V-jZhJHdEdSRFoyUnExZWZCTHV3cVJiX0MwZHc&hl=en_US&gid=4
Well done MNJ.
I think the facts really speak for themselves.
We’ve spent the 3rd most amount and made the playoffs 3 times in two decades.
That’s three times more than Pittsburgh and KC. Whoopie!
Three times less than the Astros.
The same amount as Tampa (in 7 less seasons)
Two less times than Arizona (in 7 less seasons)
One more than the Marlins and the Brewers.
One time less than the Padres.
Four times less than the Twins.
Four times less than the Indians.
Three times less than the A’s.
Three times less than the Phillies
TWELVE times less than the Braves
THIRTEEN times less than the Yankees
When your top 3 in the entire Major leagues in spending and these are your actual results I just don’t see how you can fall back on injuries and bad luck to excuse these pitiful results.
We’ve given up top draft choices for Vince Coleman, Bobby Bonilla, Tom Galvine, Roger Cedeno, Mike Cameron, Cliff Floyd, Kevin Appier, David Weathers, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran, Billy Wagner, Moises Alou, K-Rod, and Jason Bay.
How many of these guys played well AND stayed on the field AND left something behind for us going forward? Just Glavine and Beltran really. K-Rod was mostly decent but he had several off the field incidents and was a total high wire act the whole time he was here.
Some gave us good play for half or less of their contracts. Some didn’t play well at all. Others were surly and their attitude infected the whole team and really other than Beltran not one of these guys was a solid on the field leader. Probably because you can’t have a leader when you have 13 millionaires nearing the end of their careers on the team at any one time.
If these putrid results don’t give you reason to change course than I just don’t know what to say except you probably deserve nothing more than making the playoffs once or twice a decade.
MNJ I get what your trying to say…
No one can spend like the Yankees because no one HAS spent like the Yankees…
Is that because the MLB passed an edict that says no one can spend more than the Yankees?
Yes the last 20 years (and much longer than that!) the yankees have outspent everyone. Was that always true?
Didn’t they start SOMEPLACE?
I’m glad you mentioned Boston as well because there are a lot of people who want to use Boston as an example of what to do! Unfortunatly those same people do not seem to SEE what Boston is doing! They of the second highest payroll in baseball!
Both those teams STARTED their spending ways at some point!
It wasn’t always as it is today!
The only advantage the yankees have in spending is they ACCEPT it as a winning approach and already do it!
I’m not even suggesting that we have to spend like them to get whee they are I am just showing them as an example of HOW WRONG and IGNORANT this concept and argument for NOT SPENDING being suggested is!
Tag calls it Monkeyball! Calls it a total failure of system yet the two biggest spenders in the MLB say he is talking out of his butt when he says that! I know why Tag is saying it because he is using what Harazin and Omar did as his only dataset for his historical research.
But if he had included the Yanks and BoSox he would see that Spending WINS and WINS consistently!
Tag wants to say that Omar’s free spending ruined us, you know what I say?
Omar didn’t spend ENOUGH!
He should have spent on a second ACE in 2007 or 2008.
Precisely the thing the yankees (and Phillies) do when they fall short of a WS in a year. They go and get more pitching or improve some position to get the rest of the way!
It doesn’t always work but it does work enough to put fannies in the seats to pay all the bills and give you the money to do it again the next year if you fall short again!
And when you have a full team of All Stars (check Boston and Yankee player numbers in the ASG over the last 20 years) it won’t kill you to let ONE go to get those extra picks (like we will get for Reyes) because he is NOT your ONLY STAR and use his money on getting the next star!
Thats why they have been consistent!
Thats why they have been able to trade a fully stocked MiL system thats stocked because there are already All Stars playing their positions!
and Thats why for the last 20 Years the highest spender, consistent winners and annual playoff teams also happen to be the Yanks and RedSox!
Because they spend to get there, spend to stay there and spend to stay there long enough to get this same REPUTATION you seem to think they have as an advantage over us!
“Players always consider the NYY cause of the paycheck but most of all because of the chance to win multiple World Series”
And why do they win multiple WS’?
MONKEYBALL!!!!!
Doing exactly what you been railing against!
“But if he had included the Yanks and BoSox he would see that Spending WINS and WINS consistently!”
“Tag wants to say that Omar’s free spending ruined us, you know what I say?
Omar didn’t spend ENOUGH!”
On these 2 statements we will just have to disagree and leave it at that. You and me just don’t see eye to eye I guess when it comes to this.
The Mets have spent more than any team in the NL the last 20 years and it has gotten them very little but you unless i misunderstood feel it’s because they needed to spend more.
Mets have outspent the NL how much more is enough? Sorry Metsie I just don’t share your approach on this. I continue to say it’s about spending wisely not spending more.
Ok lets set what we CAN agree on…
CAN WE AGREE that the Yankees and BoSox have been the two most successful franchises in the last 15 years as far as playoff appearances and WS attempts go?
If not please name a more successful franchise than those two and tell us why.
THEY SPEND!
It’s a fact and has been established by everyone that they have spent more in the last decade than anyone!
Has anyone won as much or been to as many playoffs and WS than either?
If not what the hell is SUCCESS since that seems to be the point we can’t agree on since we agree on everything else!
Metsie, you and I have been over this already. At this point all we will be doing is retracing our steps. It’s quite clear that we just don’t seem to agree on certain areas.
It’s OK we can disagree and move past this to another topic down the road worthy of discussion.
Boat loads of cash.They netted over 300 million last year after they met payroll.They could easily have a 400 million dollar payroll and still net a profit.They are the highest grossing and netting team in all of professional sports,surpassing the Dallas Cowboys and Manchester United Soccer team.That’s what they have that the Mets don’t
OK Metsie you got me, I forgot about Muccina but that’s it 10 type A free agents in 17 years. Less than 1% of the roster.
True some carefully selected and big producing free agents but still way less than homegrown players and way less again than players procurred in trades from the farm.
I really think your misinterpreting my philosophy, possibly because buffoon keeps trying to make it something different than what it is.
I have no problem with resigning a homegrown player. (Pettite, Rivera)
I have no problem with signing and IFA (El Duque Irabu)
I have no problem with signing type B free agents that don’t cost you draft choices (Wells, Gooden, Stanton, Wright)
I have no problem with trading prospects for established Major Leaguers (Cone, Wells, Nelson)
I don’t even have a problem with signing a type A free agent pitcher here or there (Muccina, Pavano, CC) but I don’t like the free agent position player. I think those should be developed or traded for from your farm and I don’t like the idea of signing type A free agents until your team is already built (for the most part)
The fact is the NYY for the last 17 years have been put together by the draft, international free agency, trades from the farm and non compensatable free agents to the tune of about 99%.
Only about 1% came from type A free agents that cost them draft picks.
Yankees can also make up for losing a high pick by paying top dollar for prime IFAs.
The NYY know the value of going big in international free agency. Mariano, Cano, Bernie Williams, Jesus Montero.
They also have Sanchez, Banuelos, Custodio and Santana as top 20 prospects in the league in which they played last year.
They also traded away a guy they signed who just made it up at the end of last year and looks fantastic. Arodys Vizcaino.
A lot of IFA talent obtained by the NYY over the years.
Wrong again Metsie.
The 2011 NYY had 20 pure homegrown players (out of 48) who appeared in at least one game this year.
They also acquired 7 more directly from their farm system.
That puts their farm system’s contribution to the ML roster at 27/48 or 56%
They also 12 signed as plan B or other non compensatable free agents and five guys off waivers and a total of just 4 type A free agents.
List them and we will check to see how many were ACTUALLY drafted!
20 Pure homegrown which I’m sure most played in september.
What percentage of their 25 Roster was home grown and how many were everyday players?
I know you have a VERY BROAD definition of Homegrown.
They could trade for a guy tomorrow and start him the next day and you say he is homegrown!
How many were ACTUALLY drafted and GROWN by the Yankees?
Hmmm?
NYY had 20 guys who never wore another uniform as a professional in 2011. If that doesn’t suit your definition that what would?
NYY also had 7 players that were obtained with products of their farm system before they came up to the Majors.
NYY had 48 total players appear in at least one game, 20 were pure homegrown, 7 obtained by guys who never wore anything but a NYY uniform before they were traded.
27 out of 48. 56%. 2011.
“NYY had 20 guys who never wore another uniform as a professional in 2011″
Ahh so we have changed the definition of HOMEGROWN I See!
Even a guy you traded for yesterday and started today is HOMEGROWN provided he plays his first MLB game in their Uni!
Is that how your trying to make your point work now that I posted the draft positions of all the teams you say built correctly?
And where did they get the guys they used to trade for them?
less than 1% of their Roster? What percentage of drafts did those 10 Type A’s affect?
What percentage of Type A’s was our roster and bought by Omar?
Your making it out like it was way more than the Yanks…it wasn’t!
And the few times he did it you rake him over the coals for!
Please list all the homegrown players you think the Yanks brought up over those 17 years…
I bet it doesn’t evemn come CLOSE to the number of Pitchers I listed let alone all the other regular position players they went after!
They built a core of 4 guys and then bought around them!
Same thing the Phillies are doing now!
Total BS.
I’ve proven to you over and over and over again how many home grown players the NYY have had since the middle 90′s and you just won’t admit.
I’ve also proven time and time again how many players the NYY got in trades for their farmhands. Dozens of them.
The NYY average about one type A free agent every other year, we average one a year and that’s going back 15 years.
As for the lists of names you got two choices. You can look them all up yourself or you can search for them on MMO.
As many times as I’ve given them to you they shouldn’t be hard to find.
No you showed what is tantamount to 10% of their roster is actually Homegrown!
Your problem is your definition of Homegrown!
You assume it’s any guy that started his MLB career in a Yankee Uni!
But Homegrown means drafted, developed and THEN promoted!
How many Yankees in the last 20 years fit that description?
Besides Metsie your the one who made the claim that the ’69 Mets, ’86 Mets, and current NYY, Braves and Phillies recent success is due to “sucking for 10 years.”
Implying that they got big time performances from players who were selected in the draft before anyone else could get them.
Now I’ll give you Chipper, Straw, Gooden and Jeter but please give us who else did the heavy lifting that were top 10 first round picks?
If you had said Tampa, the up and coming Nationals or even the SF Giants I could agree, or agree to a point, but you didn’t. You chose the teams, now gives us the examples.
If a player was traded, then he was available to ANY team (if they had the goods)
If a player was selected in the 2nd round or later they were available to EVERY team in the first round. (if they kept their pick)
If a player was selected in the rule 5 (like Victorino who went 21st (out of 30) then he was available to 2/3rds of all organizations) Hardly qualifies as “sucking” when you draft 21st out of 30.
If a player was signed after being non tendered that player was available to ANY team.
If a player was waived, that would depend on which league he was in and the record at the time for who had first dibs.
If a player was signed as an international free agent then that player could have been signed by ANY team.
Using your criteria, ie: “sucking for 10 years,” that wouldn’t be drafting at #15 or later. That would be mediocre or good. “Sucking” would mean drafting 1-10, but to be even more fair why don’t we say 1-12.
You made the statement that those 5 teams got good because of “sucking for 10 years.” Now let us know who they got because they “sucked for 10 years.”
In other words back up your statement with facts. Give us examples. Name names.
Who exactly was it that these teams YOU mentioned acquired solely because “they sucked for 10 years” that 18 other franchises had no shot of acquiring?
Prove your statement is accurate, if you don’t back it up with examples then your statement is false. A Hoax. A fallacy and a fraud.
You forget all those TRADES for your FAUX Homegrowns?
They took the HIGH PICKS they had who retained value because they wer high round selections and traded them for other players who were NOT homegrown!
C’mon Metsie,
What are you waiting for?
You made the statement that the ’69 and ’86 Mets had current NYY, Braves and Phillies achieved their success by “sucking for 10 years.”
What players did they acquire that either helped them on the field or were traded for a guy(s) who helped them on the field that were unavailable to 2/3rds of Major League teams?
Where are the names of these guys that were unavailable to mediocre, good or very good teams that were scooped up before they had a chance to select them in the draft?
Surely your not going to be bringing up free agents again to “prove” your point are you?
Any team could sign a free agent. That’s not dependent on “sucking for 10 years.” Even the defending World Champion could sign a free agent.
The defending World Champion could also draft anyone that was selected in the 2nd round or later as long as they kept their draft choice.
The defending World Champion could also sign ANY international free agent.
The defending World Champion could make a trade for ANY player who is traded as long as they have the goods in the farm to get him.
The defending World Champion could also sign any non tender (like Werth for instance)
Your not trying to imply that the defending World Champion sucks are you?
So what exactly do you mean when you state, as you did, that the ’69 and ’86 Mets, current NYY, Braves and Phillies won because they “sucked for 10 years?”
That’s not even true anyway.
The Mets were real bad from 1962-1968 but the draft wasn’t even instituted until 1965 and MOST of their top players were signed before the draft. They could have signed with ANYONE.
Their isn’t one single player that the Mets drafted in the first 3 rounds of the 1965-1968 drafts that helped one iota in 1969.
The 1986 Mets were led by a couple of guys that would fit your criteria that were unavailable to almost every other team in Gooden and Straw but clearly you know that two great players can’t do squat unless their joined by many other great players right?
Who else did the Mets select that was unavailable to 20 or more teams in MLB did the Mets select who contributed mightily toward the 1986 World Championship team?
The NYY got Jeter #6 of the first round. That would fit your argument. Who else, Posada drafted in the 24th round? Andy Petite in the 22nd round? Bernie Williams and Mariano Rivera signed as IFA’s?
Those guys were available to EVERY SINGLE TEAM. NUMEROUS TIMES!
Chipper Jones would be a guy you could point to but who else? Glavine was selected #47 in the 2nd round. Maddox was a free agent. Smoltz was drafted in the 21st round and traded for in his first professional season while in A ball.
Do you mean Furcal? An IFA?
Please tell us how it came to be that only the Braves had a chance to get any of these guys.
Or at the very least please tell us WHO they got before 20 other teams had a chance to get them.
It’s very debatable whether the Braves actually did “suck” for an entire decade in the first place. They have been in the playoffs 6 of the last 10 years you know. That’s one less time than we have in fifty years.
The Phillies had No one that played a big part in their current run who was drafted before 14 other teams (almost half of MLB) had a chance to select. Utley #15 and Hamels #18, that’s it for the first round.
Rollins was the 2nd round. Howard was the 5th round. Every single team, including the defending World Champions could have selected them. Werth was a non tender, Victorino a rule 5. Halliday, Oswalt, Blanton, were trades, Lee a FA. Ruiz an IFA. How is it that only the Phillies were able to acquire them and how was it encumbent upon the “sucking for 10 years” in order to get them?
You mean to tell me you can only sign free agents and international free agents if you “suck for 10 years?”
You can only make trades if you “suck for ten years?”
You can only sign non tenders and draft rule 5′s if you “suck for 10 years?”
You can only find top shelf players in the 2nd round and beyond if you “suck for 10 years?”
Please give us the names of players the teams YOU selected who were unavailable to 2/3rds of teams in MLB who made a big difference for those teams being as successful as they have.
You mean like the Keith Hernandez trade?
Neil Allen was ON the Major league roster and Rick Ownby was a 13th round draft choice.
Those players could have been selected or traded for by ANYONE.
Are you referring to the Lee Mazilli trade?
Mazilli was ON the Major league roster.
Were you referring to the Paul O’Neil trade?
He was traded for an IFA (Roberto Kelly) Every single baseball team on the planet could have traded for Paul O’Neil or signed Roberto Kelly. In what way would a team “have to suck for 10 years” in order to make a trade or sign an IFA?
Were you referring to the Walt Terrell/Howard Johnson trade? Howard was a 1st rnd draft choice (#12) and was traded for Terrell a 33rd rnd draft choice. In exactly which way was it encumbent upon the Mets to “suck for 10 years” in order to pull of this trade?
So far you have failed to provide even 1 name to back up your assertion that a team must “suck for 10 years” in order to acquire top shelf talent and we all know it takes a hell of a lot more than just one player to win a World Series and YOU chose FIVE teams that you claim had to “suck for 10 years” before becoming successful.
Now are you going to back up your opinion with facts or are you going to watch it disintegrate?
Personally I’m of the belief that ANY team, Good, mediocre or poor can pull off good trades, make good non top 10 draft choices, sign IFA’s, rule 5′s and non tenders and I’ve provided you with many many examples which back my opinion.
Can you do the same or is your opinion just a hoax?
C’mon Metsie. You made the claim. Back it up. PROVE that those teams you chose as an example had the success that they have had due to “sucking for 10 years.”
Name some names of players other teams never had a shot at acquiring due to the teams you mentioned “sucking for 10 years.”
The common denominator os all those teams lost wholesale before they had ANY vestige of homegrown!
Your problem is you consider a guy traded for yesterday homegrown!
Who did we give to get Darling, Ojeda, Hernandez, Carter, Fernandez, and all those other “HOMEGROWN” 86 Mets?
Huh?
Where did we get those guys and where did we pick when we got them in thier respective rounds?
Same for the Yankees and Braves and Phillies…
Where did they pick?
Afraid to say?
Metsie I’m asking YOU to back up YOUR opinion with specific names and examples and your refusing to do it. Why is that?
If the ’69 or ’86 Mets drafted a guy early in the first round who they then traded for someone who made a big difference, say Donn Clendennon for example then tell us who it was.
In the Clenndenon example the Mets traded 3 guys who were signed as amateur free agents and another who was drafted in the 25th round so that would not be an example that you could use since there was need for a team “to suck for 10 years” in order to acquire and of the players used in trading for Clendennon.
In the Ojeda/Schiraldi deal for example the Mets drafted Schiraldi with the 27th pick of the 1st round. Obviously if one is drafting 2nd to last the certainly didn’t get that draft placement by “sucking” So that’s another example that you wouldn’t be able to use to prove your point.
What I’m asking you do is to back your opinion with some real live examples.
Name some names. Give us some examples. Tell us how those teams YOU selected had to “suck for 10 years” in order to acquire the players that led them to a Championship.
Who are these guys that were snatched up before anyone else had a chance to get them?
How and where did we get Neil Allen pray tell?
What place did we pick in that 13th round?
How did we get the players to get Carter, Fernandez, Ojeda and Darling?
Huh?
Between 1980 and 1985 we never picked lower than 5th OVERALL!
IN ALL ROUNDS!
Mets 1975-1985
75 6th
76 13th
77 16th
78 3rd
79 7th
80 1st
81 4th
82 5th
83 4th
84 1st
85 20th
Braves From 1986-1991
86 5th
87 6th
88 3rd
89 2nd
90 1st
91 2nd
Phillies
89 4th
90 3rd
91 10th
92 13th
93 4th
94 23rd
95 14th
96 11th
97 2nd
98 1st
99 12th
00 15th
01 4th
THATS how they got their homegrowns!
If thet missed in the draft they traded away all those high placed picks to get what they SHOULD have taken instead!
We have had this discussion before and you always avoid that FACT!
You say they traded away but never seem to admit that what they TRADED to get what you want to call homegrown were all those top half draft picks they got for sucking long term!
You KNOW the names what you hide from is where they came from and how they were gotten!
Look at ALL the names involved in those trades and tell us what draft position were we in when we drafted them>
I gave you a good list of draft positions above!
No go prove that those draft positions and those drafts had NOTHING to do with the trades!
Go Ahread and knock yourself out!
Names are not important, it’s WHERE they got taken and HOW HIGH compared to other guys in THAT ROUND that sets their continued trade value!
So Metsie, your NOT going to back up your opinion with any facts.
That’s exactly what I expected.
The mere fact that say the Phillies for instance average draft slot from 1995-2007 was 15th doesn’t mean anything if they didn’t get top shelf players that weren’t available to most Major League teams that then carried them toward their World Championship.
For example did it help the Phillies win a World Series because they drafted JD Drew #2 in the whole country in 1997? Of course not. Know why? Because he refused to sign with them.
How in hell did that help the Phillies win a World Series?
YOU made the false assertion that it was because of “sucking for 10 years” that those five teams YOU cited were then able to pick up players other teams had no shot at that carried those teams on to victory.
I’ve asked you repeatedly to back up your statement by providing some facts. You came back with Neil Allen. Neil Allen was drafted in the 11th round. Every single team in MLB could have selected Neil Allen 10 times, even the defending World Champion could have done that.
If the defending World Champion could have selected someone later used in a trade 10 times how in hell can that be an example of a team getting a great player by “sucking for 10 years?”
I guess we just have to face facts that your opinion on this matter is a fallacy, a hoax and pure hogwash.
By your logic Metsie a team with the worst record in baseball, picking first in every round, could select a player in the 50th round who turns out to be Mike Piazza and you would cite him as an example of how a team “sucked for 10 years” before they finally won, despite the fact that every single team in MLB could have selected him 49 times.
I think we get the idea here that your not even going to attempt to back up your false assertion that it took “10 years of sucking” in order for the ’69 and ’86 Mets, current NYY, Phillies and Braves to finally win.
When the originator of an opinion doesn’t even attempt to back up that opinion with any true examples it just goes to show how truly worthless that opinion really was.
I did back it up with Facts!
I noted the draft position those teams had!
YOU have no facts, Hell you call anyone who plays his first MLB game in a team UNI HOMEGROWN!
Sine I do NOT subscribe to that cockamamie definition of homegrown that you do (To me Homegrown is DRAFTED and Started ONLY)
You list all the guys who you consider homegrown, and who they were traded for and tell me that NONE OF THEM were drafted in those years where they picked at the top!
And YES draft position is important in EVERY round!
The last pick in the 1st round is not all that much better than the 1st pick in the 2nd round! But that #1 picking team gets an extra HIGH value pick than the last picking team does.
If you pick in the top 5% of every round it means you can take the top 5% in EVERY round!
Sure the 12th round means a lot of the guys left have been skipped over 12 times by the MLB, but by the time that round comes up the guy who has first choice is STILL going to get the better player than the guys who pick later!
And if you don’t believe that then I guess there is no point arguing with you and I hope for you they do it your way so when it fails we won’t have to hear about this warped idea about IMPORTED HOMEGROWNS and Saved Draft picks again!
In fact I hope Sandy does cut payroll, trades Wright and does everything that Jessup and Donal want to do!
Cause when he gets fired for losing another 70 Mil WITHOUT any more salary to cut and we are in last place anything those guys say will be laughed off of MMO!
And if they try to suggest or defend him for that they will get pretty much the SAME TREATMENT the Omar defenders got USING THIER STANDARDS for judging Omar!
I can’t wait and will probably not post very often until that happens!
But when It does I will come back with a VENGEANCE!
And yes tag if you pick 1st in the 50th round and get a Piazza all that really means is EVERY TEAM thought he was not worth taking earlier or until the 50th round and the team that picked first isn’t smarter than anyone else they just got first crack!
And if the guy becomes an allstar that doesn’t make them SMARTER for taking him in fact it makes them JUST AS DUMB as the rest of the MLB for waiting until the 50th round to take the guy they SHOULD HAVE KNOWN was good enough to be an ALL STAR!
That’s your proof Metsie?
WHERE THEY DRAFTED? That’s why those 5 teams became successful? Simply because of WHERE they drafted?
It makes absolutely no difference WHO they drafted, just WHERE they drafted right?
Like drafting JD Drew at #2 of the first round had a lot to do with the Phillies winning the World Series. Of course it did, he never even played for the Phillies but he was the MVP right?
To not even attempt to provide a few of the names on each of those teams you brought up and claimed (erronously) finally won because they “sucked for 10 years,” who were big time contributors is to admit that your wrong. Your opinion is so worthless on this matter that your not even going to TRY to defend it. Your not even going to attempt to provide even one single example for just one of the five teams YOU claimed finally won because they “sucked for 10 years.”
It’s not WHERE you draft genius, it’s WHO you draft.
Now I gave you four names on the five teams that YOU cited and YOU couldn’t even provide one single name of anyone else drafted in the top 10 that either played a big role or was traded for someone who played a big role on ANY of the five teams you cited.
Not even ONE!
The ’69 Mets didn’t have one single player who made a big difference who was unavailable to EVERY single team.
The ’86 Mets had TWO (Gooden and Straw)
The Braves had ONE (Chipper)
The NYY had ONE (Jeter)
The Phillies had ZERO
The closest you could come with the Phillies is Utley (#15) and Hamels (#18) Combined record that “earned” those two draft picks, one game OVER .500.
One game over .500 is hardly “sucking for 10 years.” and one or two players hardly are enough to win a World Series anyway.
You tried to make it sound like these teams were pulling guys out of the top ten every year and had 5-10 of them and you can’t even name ONE on any of the FIVE teams YOU cited.
I asked you, as you often do, to PROVE IT and you didn’t even try. You couldn’t back up your opinion with names so you tried to baffle with BS.
Claimed it was because of WHERE a team drafted when you provided ZERO proof that WHERE they drafted made any difference whatsoever in winning a World Series or two or three or whatever.
Your opinion on this matter is a completely unsubstantiated by FACTS.
It’s a complete fallacy. Pure unadulterated hogwash and nothing screams that louder than when asked for names, you weaseled out and provided ZERO in the way of proof to back up your false assertion.
Yep! the guy who picks first gets the choice of the BEST apples!
The guy who picks later gets the scraps!
The players they got that they later traded remained MORE VALUABLE because they were players who were PROBABLY on someone else’s list who they wanted but could not get because they were taken before they picked!
And that is true for ANY round!
You say the Phillies did it with HOMEGROWNS yet only 4 of the guys they have were actually taken by the Phillies in the Amateur draft!
This is LIE one of your theory because you say 20 when of those 20 only 3 or 4 of them were actually taken by the team in the draft.
You want to include the TRADED for as Homegrown then you have to show WHERE they got the guys they traded for them!
Show they got them when they picked 30th noth 1st through 5th!
A guy taken in the top 5 of any round retains his value longer than a guy taken in the last 5 picks of that round!
Because the guys that got taken in the top 5 were probably also on the list of the teams that picked after them. And THATS why they will be accepted in a multiplayer trade for a better player which you now want to call HOMEGROWN!
You need to EXPAND the definition of home grown because without that your HOMEGROWN theory blows up since all the teams you claim did that only drafted at kost 5 of the guys they include in their CORE!
It’s a typical tactic used by those with a WEAK point that need to make stronger by including and categorizing players with a quality they don’t really have but you put importance on!
Like saying all guys with good OBP are GOOD HITTERS regardless of what their BA says is true!
Stats don’t lie Tag…PEOPLE do!
And categorizing those guys as HOMEGROWN merely because they never got into a MLB game before the trade is LYING!
All because you need to make MORE homegrowns to make your theory work!
Now if you want to prove your point show that the guys you say are HOMEGROWN were not gotten via trading players they got in those drafts where they picked REALLY HIGH (top 15) of the draft!
You want to say it’s all about the draft then show how many were ACTUALLY DRAFTED not just traded for because they screwed up took the wrong guy but were smart enough to trade for him with thier mistakes later on!
OR prove that they knew ALL ALONG that the guy they took in the 5th round was first round quality by showing how all the guys they took before him were better than him and did more so that they had a good reason to wait until the 5th round before they took him!
Otherwise all you have is a LUCKY PICK that was there because they picked ahead of 90% of the rest of the teams and merely got the best 5th rounder available because of WHERE they picked not because of how much they knew!
And if you can’t do that your HOMEGROWN theory falls apart!
I showed where those guys picked and ALL of them spent more time in the top 10 of the draft than other teams!
And because of that they had 5+ years of the top 1st rounders and if you can’t draft 5 core guys with that kind of position and chances your not smart your incompetent!
The monkeyballers have had their way with this team for most of the last two decades and what have the results been?
TWELVE losing seasons in the last twenty one years.
THREE post seasons
THREE near misses
And you want more of the same?
Monkey see, monkey buy every off season. That’s the plan?
That might be a good shortsighted business strategy for the Wilpon because he can realize an almost immediate return on his investment by invigorating a gullible fan base by bringing in yet another Mo Vaughn or Roberto Alomar or Jason Bay but what about about the actual on field results? They don’t matter?
Both of our World Championship teams were won by building up the minors, then adding to them and yes, by spending top dollar 4-5 years beforehand.
Joan Payson, bless her heart probably the best owner a North American sports franchise has ever had spent top dollar acquiring the BEST young talent available. Just look at the players we signed in the run up to 1969.
Seaver (an opportunity that came along that only 2 other teams were interested in) Koosman, Ryan, McGraw, McAndrew, Gentry, Harrelson, Jones, Shamsky, Swoboda, Kranepool, Boswell and Weiss.
Smart trades for non past their prime players like Agee, Grote and Cardwell.
Platoon fill ins like JC Martin, rule 5 like Garrett and a few veterans purchased with cash like Koonce, Ed Charles and Ron Taylor and the final piece, Donn Clendennon (acquired with prospects from the farm including Steve Renko) AFTER the team was built, not brought in to sell tickets in February.
Just look at the people Joan Payson hired to run the baseball operation. George Weiss, Casey Stengal, Gil Hodges, Yogi Berra, Whitey Herzog, Bing Devine, Johnny Murphy, is it any wonder the scouting dept unearthed all these players?
Building a World Champion in the era before free agency should take a much longer time than after and yet 8 years after the first pitch was thrown in Met history we won the World Series. Right now where a big market team has a much bigger advantage than they did in the 60′s (as an expansion team with no farm at all) it’s been 25 years. During those 25 years we’ve only made the playoffs 4 times and been close another 3. Those results are putrid especially for a team with so many inherent advantages over the rest of the NL, including the leagues highest payroll over that span.
Virtually from the moment the Wilpon became responsible for 50% of the bills (Nov. 1986) the draft was deemphasized. The talent drafted but not signed is off the charts in the mid to late 80′s and eventually gave way to giving away the top picks every year, most of the time for players we couldn’t even get rid at any price and the work done in Latin America seriously lagged behind almost all the other franchises. Exactly the type of thing a big market team should be able to blow the doors off the rest of the league.
The entire Wilpon era here has been marked by cheapness behind the scenes, impatience and immaturity. Trying to correct shortages of talent in the system on a year to year basis after the fact and by constantly being last to get on the curve like going for the oldest possible players as soon as steroid testing came about.
We won in ’69 and ’86 by getting the best players before they had a baseball card, not after. A true colaboration of scouting, developing and most of all committed and pragmatic ownership and a mature and patient fan base who realized that the roots of ultimate victory were to be found in the farm, not other Major League franchises.
Bravo.
really the Yankees have been the worst team in baseball the last 25 years?
Really?
Don’t they do what you say does not work?
“Monkey see, monkey buy every off season. That’s the plan?”
And in regards to this:
“Both of our World Championship teams were won by building up the minors”
One HAD to because there as no Free Agency. the Other wasn’t homegrown, Neither Hernandez, Carter, Foster, Fernandez, Darling, Ojeda, Mitchell were home grown!
HoJo wasn’t either!
In fact MOST guys on that team were NOT DRAFTED by the Mets!
how hard is this to grasp?
those guys were all traded for. By giving back other players (IOW, prospects).
if you have nothing but cobwebs on the farm (crap that no one wants) you can’t trade for quality players, except in the rare cases (a yankee specialty for years) where you can take on all of a large salary.
No one (including Agee)is saying that every player on the field needs to be homegrown. just that if you want to accumulate talent at the ML level, you better build it up first in the minors.
Right they were all traded for…
NOT HOMEGROWN!
So Ike Davis Duda Harvey Familia Mejia Havens…… (Do i really need to type out ALL the names for the 100th time since you ignored it then?)
Means SELL THE FARM Get rid of reyes and Wright and erase the roster to start off fresh?
Cause thats what you guys agreeing with Jessup are saying!
I can’t speak for what Jessep thinks but I suggested a trade or two from the farm for top notch quality at a specific area of enourmous need. Catcher. That is hardly advocating “trading the farm.”
I’m also on record as wanting Reyes here but no more than 5 fully guaranteed years and Wright I’m open to talking about.
Only a moron would continue to assert that most of the 86 Mets were not homegrown or at least came to the Mets from the Mets own farm system after acquiring them for Major league talent.
Stop painting with a broad brush and making up things people didn’t say.
And how did they get those homegrowns you seem to think we had?
They got them by losing for a decade!
Same way the Yanks, Braves and Phillies did!
Instead of just looking at Met history and drawing a conclusion look at what is COMMON to all of them!
You will see your method requires a decade of losing!
Are you prepared to wait till 2021 to get your WS win?
Do you think Sandy will still be here if it takes that long?
Omar got us into the Playoffs in year two and he STILL only got 6!
How many years will Sandy get if he does what you guys suggest?
Now Metsie, would you please show me where I have ever written that “the Yankees have been the worst team in baseball the last 25 years”
Please provide a link or at least a quote where I have written that.
No you said the Mets who were doing what they did were the worst team in baseball! Not in so many words but you seemed to say that what the yankees do leads to failure!
Did they fail doing it?
Don’t give me this “not in so many words” ****.
You said I said “the Yankees were the worst team in baseball the last 25 years.”
Show me exactly where I said that or admit that you made it up and while your at it tell me where I said the “Mets were the worst team in baseball,” and “not in so many words” either. In the exact words you “quoted” me.
Man and to think some idiot says I’m dishonest.
“The monkeyballers have had their way with this team for most of the last two decades and what have the results been?
TWELVE losing seasons in the last twenty one years.
THREE post seasons
THREE near misses
”
Yankees like it or not are MONKEYBALLERS!
Since you named a SYSTEM not a TEAM you in fact called the YANKEES, REDSOX, PHILLIES losers!
All those guys play MONKEYBALL if you haven’t noticed!
Agee your knowledge of Mets history is unparalleled by anyone who frequents on this site.Well done!
Thanks Joe.
You mean his INTERPRETATION of Mets history is unparalleled
And it’s a very dishonest interpretation
It’s like me giving you a music history lesson about the band Pink Floyd and instead of just giving you a band history and talking about it I would give you my version of their history saying they were dumb and stupid for not filming any of their Animals or Dark Side Of the Moon Tours because they would be making millions now, in retirement, if they had.
It just doesn’t work that way. What they did at that time was a product of that time for whatever reasons. And I know the reasons but i’m just making an analogy here.
But what do you care? You’re a guy who intentionally mixed words around before copying and pasting info so that’s that. And I also don’t believer your compliment to him about his knowledge of Mets history is honest either. I think you believe he does skew the information and twist it around to make it look like if they only did certain things they would have had different results but you’re only giving him a public slap on the back more for taking sides than actually being honest about it.
Typical buffoon.
Claims my facts about how we acquired the players who won our two World Championships is dishonest and to prove it he brings up………..
PINK FLOYD!
Oh man you just make this stuff up.
I think it’s pretty obvious that you’ve been living on the dark side of the moon for way too many years now.
Time to tack off the space helmet and come back earth.
um..
It’s called an analogy you friggin dope
Nice to see everyone is still keeping it classy over here.
Right,
And make sure you mean EVERYONE. I noticed how you conveniently picked me out while ignoring what started it.
Clearly what just started this was bayonne labeling my post as an “dishonest interpretation” of how the Mets built their two World Championship teams.
He claims it is “dishonest” but never says why?
He then segues into rock music videos as if that has anything to do with what I wrote.
Hmmmmm. Let’s see Joan Payson and Pink Floyd.
Nope, don’t get the correlation. Also don’t get the disagreement without providing a differing opinion, or disputing the facts or putting forth even one single scintilla of a hint as to why he’s labeling it “dishonest.”
Is it because he can’t? That’s my best guess although I’m open to any other suggestions as to what could be the reason for his offering his opinion without even attempting to back it up.
Again, just another of about a billion posts by bayonne that never address the subject matter, just the fact that it was written.
Snark over substance.
So now I’m under moderation after bayonne called me 5 different names in one day, on one thread all the while labeling my opinion “unfair” and “dishonest.”……….but never saying WHY he felt it was unfair or dishonest, just that in his opinion it was.
Period.
If bayonne didn’t want to (or couldn’t) refute my facts why did he even bother to respond to them in the first place?
Simply to call me five different names?
Then he runs to the moderator and after things that he says………..that’s the best one of all.
One thing I’ve learned from years of renting out property is that your worst tenants always cost you your best one’s.
Strike up another victory for snark over substance.
Your reputation precedes you. You’ve been attacking him for the better part of a year now and you still don’t let up. Like I said, keeping it classy.
T agee does thing same thing as Bayonne does….but you only talk about it when Bayonne does it because you disagree with him.
And I will continue to attack anyone that continues to LIE and make up stories like the Mets fortunes have all been decided by front office moves the last quarter century.
That’s complete BS and you know it so don’t give me that.
Being a Mets fan also means being the recipient of some of the most heart breaking losses in baseball history and more recently receiving some of the worse and most frustrating injuries to it’s biggest stars that any franchise can ever endure.
So let’s knock if off and be fair about it.
You will continue to ATTACK? That’s not keeping it classy, bud. It’s incredible how you don’t see anything wrong with that…instead of having a nice conversation, you go straight into attack mode.
You seem like a real bundle of joy and a great guy to talk to. (sarcasm)
No I mean knowledge.You may not agree with him but he knows the history of the franchise as well as anyone.Far better than you and the so called rotten core.
I twisted nothing.I asked you to provide a list of players you wanted and when someone else asked you to provide it as well you said you did already and that I have to get off my ass and find it.I did only it was Vinny B’s list not yours.You like I knew all along never had a clue.You just saw Vinny post names and you went along with it.You didn’t even know what those guys were making and if they were even accurate.You just saw a list of players and said here it is,Vinny did my homework for me.
Another BS artist who thinks he knows the game better than anyone else who gets his lunch handed to him on a daily basis on this site because he cant read a stat beyond BA HR and RBI.The 3 stats you got on your TV screen in 1970.You can’t read past those 3 stats so you shoot down and bash anything that has to do with even the basics of advanced stats.
The same guy who thinks OB% is a sabermetric stat.Not only do you not understand those other simple stats you bully everybody else who attempts to have a debate about them because it’s beyond your comprehension.
Not one word did I twist,I simply proved you couldn’t come up with the players that fit inside the budget.You,I mean Vinny gave me Melky and Francouer but you didn’t say where they were playing with 3 starting out fielders already under contract and 2 of them added up to 34 million and gave nothing in 2010 but hey Frenchy has an arm so maybe he could’ve setup for BB-Rod,actually so does Melky he could’ve been a LOOGY.Oh I’m sorry is LOOGY too advanced.I bet his FIP would be about the same as Bays batting avg.
Heres one for ya.The 2011 Mets sucked just like the 2009 and 2010 verson sucked only the 2011 version didnt have their best pitcher to start the season and was the same team that couldn’t hit their way out of a wet paper bag in 2010.I could see how the crippled core could be thought of as a contender though because at one time they all could play 150 games without a pulled gonad only 3-4 years ago,but hey Alderson should’ve realized these guys contended 3 years ago and should’ve signed Lee,Werth and Crawford so we could win 85 games.Screw draft picks sign everybody,screw the farm.Yeah thats right Omar got us a bunch of big bats just waiting to hit the scene.Any year now the next Pujols should be making his way to Flushing.
2nd guessing and all you don’t hold a candle to tagee or anybody else on this site for that matter.You’re just a high strung loudmouth always looking for battle.Go root for the Yankees they spend big bucks every year and take the rest of the rotten core with you.
Amen!
Instant classic. Best post ever.
Again, Joe, that was NOT the point of that list I made – It was NOT about who the Mets should have signed….It was about the players who got paid SIMILAR(not exactly the same)as the players the Mets signed, and that played better.
That’s all it was, nothing more, nothing less.
The salaries of most of those guys were as similar to the salaries of the guys we signed as Jason Bay’s Met production has been to his Red Sox production.
3M for five or six of the guys you mentioned.
2M for another half dozen.
Not even close to similar.
I remember a lot of the guys I listed signed minor league contracts.
And Capuano went up to 4 million, so all the guys i listed are similar.
You know what? You can even remove the few players that signed for 2M or so from that list, and it’s still very long.
I forgot to list players like J Guzman, Al albuquerque, Endy Chavez, G Mota(I’m not kidding, he did really good, look it up), Jose veras, Reed Johnson, Cory Wade, and Jose Constanza.
So, even if you remove those guys who made about 2M, it’s still a pretty big list.
And just to make sure everyone understands, this is not a list about who the Mets should have signed, it’s about what players were paid around the same as the guys that the Mets signed, and played better.
That’s all it is.
Sorry Vinny that list didn’t work.The ones that would’ve fit our needs made too much to fit not our budget.Just look up their salaries for 2011 ob baseball reference .com and you’ll see that they made too much for what the Wilpons were willing to spend towards the 2011 roster. 135 million was already committed to 2011 payroll before Alderson took office.That was Minayaball.
And Vin can you imagine the backlash if the Mets resigned Mota,Chavez and guys like Alberquerque,Guzman,Constanza,Reed Johnson,Jose Veras and any other low risk high reward guy would’ve been shot down by the same people killing Alderson for the signings he made last year.
These same guys didn’t want different low risk high reward players sighned they wanted bigger names signed.They wanted Cliff Lee,Jason Werth,Adrian Beltre and Carl Crawford signed without even considering the state of economics that the franchise has been hampered by due to the debt on Citifield,SNY and the Madoff situation.
Just like Omar couldn’t have predicted that his signings like Bay would’ve set the franchise back by poor production and forking over picks and he couldn’t predict guys like Beltran,Delgado and Santana would get hurt or that a slew of Allstars on one team would choke away 2 playoff berths,just like Omar couldn’t see that happening in his crystal ball,Alderson could not see in his crystal ball that his low risk high reward signings would not work out and the other low risk guys that were signed by other teams actually had high reward seasons.
The one difference between Omars signings and Aldersons is that Aldersons do not hurt past 2011 becuase he lost zero picks and only gave 1 year deals except to Carrasco who’s only getting 1.2 million as opposed to Omar’s multi year nightmares that not only cost us picks but tied up roster spots and for big money.
The highest payroll in the NL over Omar’s tenure only netted us one playoff berth.
Aldersons plan is still on course to build the farm up and stockpile talent.Finally for the first time simce Cashen we have a GM with foresight and a plan that has brought every other team with the same plan,long term success.
Monkeyball aka Minayaball is dead in Flushing.
RIP Monkeyball.
Again, Joe, I’m not saying we should have signed those guys! How many times do I have to say that!
All I did was list the players that were paid similar to the players the Mets signed, and that played better – THAT’S IT!!!
The list I made was just a FACT – Those guys I listed did play better than the guys the Mets signed, and were around the same price. And we already went over the price – You can even remove the guys who were paid 2M, and the list is still pretty big anyway.
I know you didn’t say that Vinny,I’m just trying to make a point about what the Core wanted and what was available to us and what we could do within the budget. I’m sure one or two of those guys would’ve helped but we just didn’t have enough money to spend to fill all those roster spots and help an already bad team contend.Despite what Bayonne,Metsie and the core think,this was not a contending team,they suck.
Again Vinny they were not the same price.I don’t know how many times I have to say that.Most of those guys got paid between 2 and 3 million.The Mets didn’t sign anybody over 1.5 million.
That’s not true – Only a few signed for 2-3M. And as I said before, you can even take the guys who signed for 2-3M out of the list, and it would STILL be a very long list.
Wang, Millwood, Vogelsong, Colon, Garica, Bedard, Choate, Coffey, Saito, Sherrill, Kotchman, Bloomquist, Andruw Jones, J Guzman, Al albuquerque, Endy Chavez, G Mota, Jose veras, Reed Johnson, Cory Wade, and Jose Constanza.
Is that betetr?
wrong again. It seems like you’re always wrong.
- I don’t think OBP is a sabermetric stat, never did. I know it’s an old stat just too much emphasis is put on it these days is my point
so you’re wrong there. I just hope the obsession with OBP fades away again like it has in the past.
You said the 2011, 2010, & 2009 Mets sucked yet you tell me to go root for the Yanks. Again the reason those 3 seasons were brought up was that any chance the Mets had those 3 years was cut short almost immediately because of injuries to their main stars, and in 2009 even the backups for the backups got hurt. Yet you say the Mets sucked that year. My take on it was i never had a chance to truly evaluate the team because everybody got hurt.
I think evaluating those 3 seasons at face value is unfair shows bad judgement. But that is to be expected of guys like joe diaz and t agee.
The list of players that Vinny B provided came off the heels of me saying one time that I was sure that there were a lot of other players around last off season that Alderson and the other 2 Mets GMs could have had within the same financial constraints. Why is that so hard for you and the other 2 lunatics to understand?
And it’s not incumbent for me to know exactly what players were available but I just knew there were others around. Vinny B did the leg work and listed a bunch of other players that did well in 2011 that were available last off season. We are not General Managers. It is their job to find these guys, not ours. And since we have 3 GMs they should have been able to do a better job if they chose to. Whether they actually did try their best to compete we’ll never know. Maybe they did, maybe not.
And not only that. Who knows? Maybe there were even MORE decent players than the ones we got that were out there.
That’s why it’s my opinion THEN and now that Alderson had a terrible off season last year.
So as usual you misunderstand a point. Maybe I am that good because i cannot believe the amount of times you guys are off point, misunderstand points, and totally twist things around looking for reasons to be angry at the Mets for winning more the last few years when in fact the TRUTH is they HAVE had their destiny in their own hands quite a few times and lost games on the field.
Did you see t agee’s DISHONEST response to my list of heartbreaking losses (which joe diaz even understood) and my fantasy scenario after that which was meant to express how games are lost on the field and not in the GMs office?
His response was off point, very dishonest and had totally nothing to do with what i was talking about. It’s hard to debate with insane people like that regardless of how crude you think my personality is.
And sometimes i think you guys agree with each other more out of how you feel about an individual than actually agreeing with the point made.
wow, a “t agee length post”
now i know it’s late.
Tony LaRussa just SLAMMED the concept of OBP
“On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years because it forces some executives and coaches and players to think that it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks, and the fact is that the guys that have the best on-base percentage are really dangerous hitters whenever they get a pitch in the strike zone,” La Russa said.
“So if the pitcher knows that and the catcher knows that, they work the edges, and pretty soon it’s 2-1, 2-1 rather than 0-1 all the time. … You watch your productive hitters in the big leagues, and they get a chance to drive in a run, they look for the first good strike, and the better the pitching, especially this time of the year, you get that first strike, that may be the last one that you get to see. So you’d better be ready to swing early.
“But that danger creates counts and deep — it’s not sitting up there and taking strike one, strike two so that you can work the count. I mean, I think most people would agree with that.”
Thank you Tony LaRussa
And Ron Washington took a shot at Moneyball concepts too.
So…… What he’s saying is to swing at good pitches and not swing at bad pitches. How enlightening. Good thing he thought of it.
He’s not giving his peers very much credit if he thinks they think OBP is all about getting walks. That’s an absurd thing to think and if anyone actually did think that way, they wouldn’t have a job for long.
It would be nice if LaRussa knew what he was talking about. Maybe if he wasn’t so busy over managing his team out of the World Series, he would see how silly what he said was.
It’ that same lazy, tired, consistently debunked “looking for a walk” accusation.
LOL I can’t stop laughing at Donal’s attack on the most sabermetric manager in the game! LOL
Hey Xtreem – Follow the logic and tell me it doesn’t apply!
OBP is important right? But it’s not about walks right?
Your a GM who values OBP!
One guy hits .300+ and has a high OBP (lets say .390) because of it.
He costs 15 Mil to get!
Another guy has a .390 OBP, But he doesn’t hit that good and costs only 4 Mil.
Based on OBP which one is the GM going to think is the better buy if OBP is more important than anything else?
Including BA!
THATS what LaRussa was talking about!
OBP is significant but only if it is EARNED for the most part!
If you only look at OBP and not BA then you don’t really know if it is earned or not and could get a guy who is all about walks!
“LOL I can’t stop laughing at Donal’s attack on the most sabermetric manager in the game! LOL”
What? What does that have to do with anything? LaRussa, who’s “brilliance” is taking his own players out of the games, went to the same lazy, uninformed, debunk comment mouth breathers keep trying to hide behind.
Anyone who thinks valuing OBP means having guys up at the plate “looking for a walk” even after it has been explained time and time again as not that are either complete morons or dishonest hacks.
It’s unbelievable,
Now the saber nuts are attacking Tony LaRussa for dismissing OBP. They just can’t handle the fact their beliefs are being shot down more and more by the most respected people in baseball.
Including BOTH World Series managers.
So Tony LaRussa is wrong now – incredible. Absolutely incredible.
Yes, Tony LaRussa is wrong. What he said is contradictory to well established facts. If you have a problem with that, take it up with reality. Or, LaRussa.
OBP isn’t getting shot down, people who grab a bat and let good pitches go by are, which is decidedly against the plate discipline “philosophy” I have. Go ask LaRussa what he’d do if one of his players went up there and swung at bad pitches. Then see how opposed he is to my “philosophy.”
ROFLMAO….
What is he using to OVERMANAGE and make his moves Donal?
SABERMETRICS!
Guess what else!
He proved that what you guys say is NOT happening IS HAPPENING on the MLB level…
“because it forces some executives and coaches and players to think that it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks”
You trashed the guy who made the point your trying to make now yet trashed him as a know nothing!
If he knows nothing for saying what you just said where does that put you?
He made YOUR argument and you said he knows nothing!
I can’t write this stuff by myself I don’t even insult you as you insult your OWN philosophy!
All LaRussa said was that SOME MLB people actually play thier game beased on FALSE ASSUMPTIONS that getting a walk is as good as anything because OBP is all that matters!
PROOF that what we have said about OBP IS HAPPENING in the MLB!
“What is he using to OVERMANAGE and make his moves Donal?
SABERMETRICS!”
What metrics? I’d like to know.
“All LaRussa said was that SOME MLB people actually play thier game beased on FALSE ASSUMPTIONS that getting a walk is as good as anything because OBP is all that matters!”
And that has been debunked, repeatedly.
“You trashed the guy who made the point your trying to make now yet trashed him as a know nothing!
If he knows nothing for saying what you just said where does that put you?
He made YOUR argument and you said he knows nothing!”
Quote were I said LaRussa knows nothing. I want to see that. Otherwise, i is just another in a long line of lies you spout.
“Are you saying you believe splits v. rhp and v lhp etc are sabermetrics now?”
What stats are listed in thoe Splits Jessup?
Are they just traditionals?
When was it debunked Donal?
LaRussa said it is happening in the MLB NOW!
Prove he is wrong and that it NEVER happens!
If not go read Tango’s link I provided in the other thread to see exactly how much you know about what people who follow Sabers believe!
Metsie, “What is he using to OVERMANAGE and make his moves Donal?”
Are you saying you believe splits v. rhp and v lhp etc are sabermetrics now?
Maybe LaRussa didn’t realized his team that’s in the WS led the NL in OBP.What he’s saying is exactly what Ex,Jes and Donal having been trying to explain to you but you just keep saying the same old antiquated BS give me the guy that drives in 100.Yeah that’s a great way to evaluate a hitter,the guy that has 100 RBI’s.
Show me one great hitterthat has a low OB% and maybe your arguments will hold a little weight.
“What he’s saying is exactly what Ex,Jes and Donal having been trying to explain to you ”
Yeah and then called LaRussa a know nothing for saying what they said!
So which is it? LaRussa is right or as Donal would have it, LaRussa is WRONG?
MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“When was it debunked Donal?”
Every time it is spouted.
“LaRussa said it is happening in the MLB NOW!
Prove he is wrong and that it NEVER happens!”
As has been explained to you over and over, that is not how it works.
“If not go read Tango’s link I provided in the other thread to see exactly how much you know about what people who follow Sabers believe!”
You mean what you think one guy believes. How can one sentence be so wrong in so many ways?
“Yeah and then called LaRussa a know nothing for saying what they said!”
That’s it. Keep repeating the lie. Maybe that one will come true.
OH Donal it’s not how it works in the MLB…
Which team in the MLB do YOU work for to know these things huh?
What makes you more experienced than LaRussa on the goings on of the MLB?
You know those guys you HOPE are smarter than you?
Ok dummy I won’t repeat it I will just REQUOTE IT!
“It would be nice if LaRussa knew what he was talking about” Donal October 27, 2011 at 11:00 am
There was more players that should have been on there, that I forgot about.
So even if you take out the guys who signed for 2 million or so, that list is still pretty big anyway.
He’s got one issue with his Met History, Yankee History Braves Hiostory and Phillies History as well!0
He missed the KEY THING that ALL of those teams including the 69 and 86 Mets had in common!
Almost a decade or more of SUCKING to build the foundation!
It wasn’t built by selling off talent!
It wasn’t built by hoarding draft picks!
It wasn’t built by an avoidance of Free Agency!
the FOUNDATION was built the good old fashioned and TIMELESS way!
SUCK for a good long time and you get a lot of good players in the draft, more than anyone else and then you beat them!
Thats how the 69 Mets did it!
Thats how the 86 mets did it!
Thats how the Braves did it!
Thats how the Yankees did it!
Thats how the Phillies did it!
Is your plan to make the team suck for 10 years straight to make this team a winner again?
Because thats what your supporting!
Next met WS is in 2021 if you do what Jessup and Tag want done!
Completely and totally untrue.
I’ve proven this to you a few times and yet you continue to spout this nonsense.
Two players on those teams was taken #1 in the first round (Chipper Jones and Straw) Two of them. One other player was taken in the top 5 (Gooden) That’s it.
Most of the top players on the ’69 Mets were signed before there even was a draft. They could have signed with anyone.
John Smoltz was traded for after 3/4 of a very poor 1st professional season. Tom Glavine was drafted in the 2nd round #19, the 47th player taken in the draft. Greg Maddox a FA the Braves signed was also taken in that same 2nd round as was Al Leiter. ALL were available to ANYONE who had a pick in either the first, or the first and 2nd round. Every single one them.
Cole Hamels was a first round pick on the Phillies, #18. We could have taken him. Utley was drafted smack dab in the middle of the draft #15. Rollins was taken in the 2nd round, Howard in the 5th. Victorino was a rule 5. Werth a non tender. Worley a 3rd rounder. Halliday, Blanton, Oswalt Lidge and Pence in trades from the farm.
All these players were available to every single team except Utley and Hamels only half of teams.
Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Andruw Jones, Carlos Ruiz, Rafeal Furcal, were all IFA’s. ANYONE could have signed them, even the defending world Champions who went 162-0 and swept every playoff series could have signed them.
Donn Clendenon, Tommie Agee, Jerry Grote, Keith Hernandez, Bobby Ojeda, Ray Knight, Gary Carter, Tino Martinez, Paul O’Neil Knoblauch, Cone, came in trades FROM the farm.
Sid, Darling Smoltz, Hojo came as minor leaguers in trades for Major Leaguers.
Wells, El Duque were free agents that didn’t cost draft choices.
Out of all those teams Metsie named you would be hard pressed to find 15 guys total on all of them combined that EVERY SINGLE TEAM had no chance of acquiring unless they threw their draft choice away.
Metsie is just trying to scare everyone that we’re going to “suck for 10 years” when the reality is that almost every single player on all of those teams were available to every single team.
People here aren’t as stupid as you think Metsie.
The only chance we have to “suck for 10 years” is if we continue to play monkeyball every off season.
Yep! We took Kazmir 2 picks ahead of Hamels,but Met fans just know that he was traded for Victor Zambrano.
Oh come on. Really? Were you saying at that that time that we should have drafted Hamels instead of Kazmir? Or are you just saying that now because Hamels is having success?
And you can make the argument that Kazmir in his best years was better than Hamels in his best years – From 06-08 he had a 3.41 ERA with more K’s than innings pitched, pitching in the AL East – It’s not like Hamels is miles ahead of him….
The Mets did NOT make a bad pick, they made a TERRIBLE trade, but not a bad pick.
Obviously you didn’t read the thread Vinny.
Metsie has repeatedly stated that every team under the sun that ever wins a World Series got their because of collecting top 5 draft choices.
In his latest attempt to perpetrate this hoax he listed a number of teams including Philadelphia.
I was simply pointing out that Hamels was available to 17 of the 30 MLB teams (including us)
Utley, their only other big gun from the first round was available to 14 of the 30 MLB teams and every single team could have drafted, signed or traded for every single other Phillie, even the defending World Champions.
It is a complete lie and total BS that teams that win the World Series did so simply because they were getting top 10 picks every year.
In my opinion Metsie is perpetrating this fallacy simply to try to scare people into thinking that not signing type A free agents for 2 or 3 years is going to result in a decade of 59-103.
That’s not true. That was the record of the original Met monkeyball team. You remember, “The worst team money could buy.” part 1. 1993. Coleman, Saberhagen, Bonilla, O’Brien, Murray.
Good times that team huh? Fireworks, bleach, golf clubs. Great to have a bunch of hungry kids on the team huh?
My comment was for Joe Diaz, not you.
“Yep! We took Kazmir 2 picks ahead of Hamels,but Met fans just know that he was traded for Victor Zambrano.”
That’s what I was responding to. He was tyring to make it seem like Kazmir was a bad pick, while it was in fact, a VERY good pick.
If you draft somebody who can put up those numbers pitching in the Al East, it’s a great pick, no matter who was pick afterwards – It’s not like the NFL draft, these guys are so far away from the majors when they are picked, so most of them don’t work out – so whenever you get somebody good, it’s a good pick, no matter what.
Vinny I follow the draft from start to finish and scouts at the time said that the Mets were reaching with Kazmir and just about every scout had Hamels on their boards ahead of Kazmir except the Mets scouts.Mainly it was because of the size difference and Hamels already had a plus changeup in his arsenal and all Kazmir had was a plus fastball.Just like scouts got on the Mets for drafting Phillip Humber ahead of Jered Weaver.Me! Hell I don’t watch these guys,I go with what the scouts say.Apperently though the Mets don’t listen to scouts and their reports.Probably why we never draft any impact players don’t ya think?
Wait what happened to the they traded away a lot of talent they got from those HIGH DRAFT PICKS to get your supposed HOMEGROWNS?
You see you keep changing the markers to fit whatever it is you want to say this minute!
They got ALL THAT TALENT they TRADED AWAY in those LOSING SEASONS!
And a few who didn’t were their HOMEGROWN talent!
great piece.
Also, while I know that there has been much discussion about Sandy’s ML roster moves this past off seaosn, my real hope is that his first mission was to reverse a lot of those ingrained negative traits. Fix the foundation, and you can build a better house on top of it.
Thanks Any. Agree completely. Fix the foundation and you build a better house. Well said.
No the Core(LMAO) wants free agents,no draft picks.Omar Fan says draft picks are insignificant and we should only sign IFA’s.Truth be told he called draft picks worthless,then again he idolizes a clueless GM who wrecked 2 franchises.We should sign Pujols Put Ike in RF,sign CJ Wilson and CC Sabathia when he opts out and then sign Prince Fielder put him in LF and move Bay to CF.Hey I like this core fantasy baseball.
No mention of Murphy, Evans, Parnell or Stinson?
Murph is coming off injury, so that’ll hurt. But the dude hits and plays hard. He needs some work in the field, but he’s better defensively than what some give him credit for. I think playing one position everyday will do wonders for his fielding. Of course, his value to the Mets greatly depends on if Reyes and/or Wright are here or not.
Evans isn’t a great player, but showed a good glove at first and can play multiple positions. His bat seems good coming off the bench.
Parnell is either great or horrible. I’m not sure how good he’ll ever be, but someone will be seduced by a 101FB potential.
Stinson is another Murph/Evans type player. He hasn’t owned a position, but has hit his way through the minors. I don’t see the Mets having a position for him, but her could be a nice add in in a package deal.
Yea, Murph to me is our best trade bait. He prob better suited for AL and I think we could get someone good in return. That being said I’d like to see him here one more year to see if he fits..Parnell also could draw interest I’d say ‘sold to you’ in an instant.. Evans got some playing time but has no real trade value IMO ,,,no way Wright or Ike going anywhere, nobody else would surprise me if traded,,
Stinson is a pitcher! You must have him mixed up with someone else.
There are a bunch of kids in the minors and we’re not going to be able to protect them all so a package for a guy a couple years from FA could be a way to get something for right now and get something for guys we’re probably going to lose, and then replenish the farm with the picks the new acquisition leaves behind in two years. The hard part is which kids to include. Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Wheeler and Gorski are out.
Flores is a guy I’d hate to see go but I also doubt he would stick in the Majors all year long if he was selected in the rule 5. He could really only back up 3B a position he’s just started to play and his bat was only decent in A+ due to his age, not his production but leaving him off the 40 would still be taking a big chance. Would it be better to think about trading him and getting something rather than risking losing him for nothing?
Puello and Lagares are two others I’d hate see included in a deal or lost to the rule 5 draft and either (or both) could be effective 5th OFers in limited roles for a year so they truly do represent a risk of losing them for nothing. Valdespin, Schwinden, Stinson, Cohoon, Egbert and Raul Reyes are our only rule 5 eligibles that can also provide AAA depth at the start of the season. Tovar could be takan as a back up MIer, McHugh a ROOGY, spot starter, Cruz and De La Torre backend of the pen, Kirk, Fern, Holt, Havens, Ratliff, Carson, Niesen and Zapata would just be be throwins. Potentially disastrous ones, and wouldn’t bring back enough to make it worthwhile. A package involving Welch, Armando Rodriguez, Lutz and Flores would be worth listening to and afford us 3 more roster spots in which to protect guys we already have in our system and get us someone who can help now for at least a couple of years.
I think Lagares definitely gets protected. He can play all 3 OF positions, he’s a stone throw away from the majors at this point in AA and he’s got one plus hitting tool (his contact) with developing power. He’s probably a bit of a tweener in the end (not enough defense for CF, not enough power for a corner) but as a 4th OF, he seems like he can fake center field well enough to be a backup for some team if they were to draft him. He’s also a very free swinger, so I could see him as trade bait to try to capitalize on his high batting average and get something in return for him. Kirk Nieuwenhuis is sort of a similar case as a tweener, except with less contact skills but better defense in center.
Puello is a tough call, although the development of his power this year was a great sign. His plate discipline took a giant leap backwards, though. He could be a breakout candidate if he repeats St. Lucie and can put the power with improved plate discipline.
Agree Who. I like Lagares and would love to see him get a taste. I’d even like to give Fern a spot on the 25. One last chance. Puello I believe in. I really hope he’s not taken. It’s a real shame from a roster standpoint that Kirk won’t be ready by April and a flat out killer that Bay is clogging a roster spot.
Theo Epstein in his introduccion as a cubs president:”Over time and together we will build a solid foundation. We are ready and we are hungry.”
Sandy Alderson: “we can’t have guys making 15 million, the flexibility of the payroll is important, we get 2 draft picks for reyes when he leaves”
see the difference???
Theo = Winner who wants to win
Sandy = Loser who is here to shed payroll under selig’s guidance
well, isn’t there a difference between a quote from one guy, and something you made up about the other guy?
And pretty sure Sandy talked plenty about building a foundation for sustained success too.
Yeah I gues he missed the part when Alderson said he wants to turn the Mets into an iconic franchise,like the Yanks and the Redsox.
Right, because that’s the first thing Sandy said when he took the podium last year.
Oh wait…he never actually said that? You just made that up? Geez. You should grow up.
Actions speak louder than words
So I guess you missed the part of his press conference when he said ““We want to be like the Yankees and the Red Sox and the Phillies, and we plan on being like them soon.”
That was my imagination? I guess other people imagined that too: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-aldersonmets122110
Which one of them are cutting payroll pray tell?
Which one of them is also in massive debt and being sued for 386 million dollars for a Ponzi Scheme pray tell?
Yeah Wilpons are in Debt?
Proof?
Or just more of your typical make shit up and hope no one notices crap?
I gave you proof yesterday, but apparently you don’t look at things that don’t support your terrible arguments. Here we go again:
Here’s a link to an article saying that the most the Wilpons will have to pay back is 386M: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-28/sports/30240146_1_madoff-estate-sterling-equities-saul-katz
Here’s a link saying that they lost 70 million in 2011: http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/09/mets-win-madoff-battle-but-might-lose-jose-reyes.html
Here’s a link saying that they lost 50 million in 2010: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/sports/baseball/25mets.html?_r=1&ref=sports
The Mets borrowed 25 million from MLB: http://www.metstoday.com/6194/2011-spring-training/mets-borrowed-25-million-from-mlb/
The Mets took loans for SNY: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2011/02/01/sny-debt-will-impact-sale-of-new-york-mets/
The Mets took loans for Citi Field: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/de_perate_mets_in_new_relief_pitch_3Sp88YVWEvp3QZH8q8HwtO
Not to mention that the economy is terrible and their business, the real estate market, is in a gigantic recession. But hey…what do I know, right? It’s not like you can’t figure this stuff out by reading a newspaper or something. Oh wait…you can? Oh, okay.
There’s your proof. Now shut up.
Thats not proof that they are broke dude!
You need to show their bankbook and net worth (try Forbes) to prove the Wilpons are broke!
Yes they took loans to build the stadium!
So did the Yankees!
They seem to have no problems paying their bills!
Is that because they have more stars on their team than just Jose Reyes who you can’t wait to get rid of?
Your plan MAKES them broke if they do it!
I gave you your proof. You’re supposed to shut up.
By the way…the Yankees:
A)Have ridiculously higher profits than the Mets ever have because they’re the Yankees!
B)They’re not being sued because of their involvement in a Ponzi Scheme. The Mets’ owners may or may not have that $386 million but it’s not like they can actually spend it now even if they did and they would be morons to spend it with the verdict still up in the air.
C)Did I mention that the Yankees ARE THE YANKEES?! What’s not to understand? They have tons of money rolling in because they’re the most successful team in sports history.
Yep! Because they haven’t PERSONALLY lost a dime!
The team is losing money on attendance is that because they spent too much or not enough to win and keep the people in the seats?
Wilpon himself has not lost a penny!
The team did not Wilpon!
In fact he made money because all you guys who didn’t go to the game because you think the team sucks watched on SNY and shot the ratings UP!
Metsie, the Mets received a loan from MLB in November of 2010. “Yes they took loans to build the stadium!”
The stadium was built before that.
Are you really trying to argue the Wilpon’s financial situation? You think the Wilpon’s have as much $ avail to them for the team as they did in say 2005/2006?
Really?
That article has a quote that is worth repeating. It is what I am waiting to see if it’s backed up by his (Alderson) actions and bares positive results or if it is just words.
“It essentially comes down to winning,” Alderson said. “But it’s also, during the interim, convincing people you have a plan to be competitive and win consistently over time rather than next year. Our goal is to be the organization that can be in the mix every year. When you’re talking about the Yankees and Red Sox and Philadelphia, that’s what they achieved. That’s where we need to be.
“That was one of the attractions of the Mets organization. The more abstract virtues of being in New York – the big city, the excitement that brings and the fact that New York is such a strong baseball city – together with the resources. It’s not to say we want to go out and buy our way to a championship. But it does create a lot more options and flexibility. I would not have taken this job a lot of places.”
- Sandy Alderson
Yep – that’s more like it……………that’s what I heard him say, funny how some have selective hearing/reading skills.
You mean no hearing/reading skills. Apparently to be a member of the “Core”, you have to be blind, deaf and dumb. That fits all of them!
Please provide that exact quote by Sandy Alderson…………….otherwise you are just instigating yet another fight and clearly making up lies to fit your agenda.
Where did he say those words verbatim?
alex: Out of curiousity, if the Cubs win a World Series with Epstein employed will you give him credit for it?
Heck any knowledgeable Met fan (most who post here) can make a pro and con case on trading our players but it means nothing unless you can tell me who you want in return. If the Rockies want Wright, tell me who we should get in return, and who will play the vacant position for the player that we lose. This is what I want to know.
Rockies give us Fowler and Pomeranz for Wright and I’ll ne pretty happy. Pagans gone so Fowler in center. Pomeranz is close to Major League ready. Murphy plays third. Resign Reyes and Tejada at 2b.
Sane, the CORE salutes you. that sounds like a good idea. not only that, but fowler and murphy will save a lot of payroll and can play at the ML level, that’s music to sandy’s ears.
I always lmfao when I hear the term the core salutes you.Can’t make this stuff up.
The “Core” can be quite a bore, if you ask me.
Highly doubtful that the Rox trade Pomeranz after they traded Jiminez to get him.He’s a much better prospect than Wheeler and will probably be an ace in the next 2-3 years.They would probably trade Alex White and the 3B prospect Arenado.They already said Fowler isn’t going anywhere.I’d take the Arenado and the C Rosario and maybe a pitcher for Wright if we could get that much.I’d drive Wright there.
I like Ruben Tejada’s future in the major leagues over Josh Thole, no question.
I’m curious the author says that Thole did not play up to, “expectations.”
What does he think the Mets expected from Thole in 2011? We need a real major league catcher who will play 115-125games a year, play well defensively, have the ability to throw out runner and offer confidence to the pitching staff.
Does anyone think the Met pitching staff is confident throwing an 0-2 pitch in the dirt?
No. Of course not. That is a problem the Mets need to address. Even a team with a solid #1 catcher needing a backup would not be interested in Thole. Why would you want a back-up catcher who is poor defensively. Thole was hyped, hyped and hyped some more to provide cover for the Wilpon’s decision to not put a contending team on the field. It’s tread water for the next 5 yrs while the Wilpon’s rehabiliate their finances. The Mets are not a priority right now to the Wilpons.
Unfortunately the Mets have never been top priority for the Wilpons.There just happy to play meaningful games in September.They could care less about October unless their other endeavors are faltering.Now they need the Mets to play into October to turn a profit but they can’t afford to spend a ton of money and miss the playoffs like the last 5 years or else it puts them into a deeper hole financially.If only they would just sell the damn team to an owner that understands which market he’s in.
I watched an old “Kiner’s Corner” on youtube last wee. Kiner was interviewing the new Met General Manager/Part Owner” Fred Wilpon. Kiner asked simple direct questions like, Is this ownership group going to invest financially in the team? etc etc.. Wilpon answered in a very sincere, genial way, :Yes!” etc etc.. When was this? 1979? 1980? Perhaps Wilpon’s Sterling Enterprises needed to sell off properties following the wonderful down cycle of the Carter years? Wilpon bought a stack in the Mets, enough to get him the General Maanger job? If anyone knows the general time frame of the Wilpon’s buying into the Mets and the events leading up to gaining majority ownership of the team I’d be interested in reading it.
1979-1980. Wilpon and Nelson Doubleday bought team from Payson family. Years later he weasled controlling share over Doubleday (who brought Mike Piazza here, when Wilpon did not want to trade for him). Doubleday sold his shares when his family did not want to keep team sometime around 1999. Doubleday was the better owner, I think.
Nelson Doubleday, Jr. (born July 20, 1933) was the president of Doubleday. He was instrumental in the company’s purchase of the New York Mets in 1980.[1] He served as chairman of the Mets’ board during the team’s rise to its 1986 World Series title. In 1986, he and Fred Wilpon bought the team from the publishing company for more than $80 million.[2] At the same time, Doubleday sold the publishing company to Bertelsmann A.G. for a reported $475 million.[3] In 2002, Doubleday sold his stake in the Mets to Wilpon.[4]
You can Google him and read in Winkepedia
When the Mets went up for sale in 1980 Wilpon wanted to buy them and the guy he found who had the money was Nelson Doubleday. Doubleday had his publishing corporation buy 95% of the team with Wilpon buying 5%.
Fred was always on the scene from day one even though his investment was a mere 1 Million dollars. He even introduced Franl Cashen at the press conference the day he was hired.
Nelson let Cashen do his job though without meddling and was rewarded with a World Championship. By 1987 Doubleday wanted to sell his publishing Company (which owned the Mets) but couldn’t because Fred had a 1st refusal clause in the contract so Doubleday had to sell Fred 45% and become equal partners in order to sell his publishing business. Life as 50/50 partners was manageable until the Fay Vincent/Bud Selig split in the early 90′s. After that the organization suffered from paralysis in decision making. Wilpon is widely credited with firing Mcilvaine and hiring Phillips Doubleday is widely credited with insisting the Mets trade for Piazza but the partnership didn’t really work out well for either.
In 2003 Nelson sold his 50% and stated to the press than Jeff Wilpon was already to take over and “you better run for the hills boys.” The following year the gullible Jeff Wilpon took an innocuous statement by Rick Peterson and ran with it all the way to Tampa while forking over the crown jewel for a court jester. In fact all of the Mets basic strategy since the Wilpon’s became full 50% owners has been to overspend at ticket selling time rather than to put the money into drafting, signing and developing the best talent they can acquire and waiting the 4-7 years for it to blossom and getting the best years instead of the worst ones which is exactly the opposite of the strategy used to put together the 1986 team.
One of the details in selling the Mets is that Nelson Doubleday gets 40 M if the Mets were to build a new stadium and that combined with everything else financially the Wilpon’s are going through may help force them to sell or take on a partner themselves.
I didn’t know about that detail about Doubleday getting money if the Mets built a new stadium. I know I remember reading a couple of years back that Doubleday was vehemently against the idea of a new stadium and just wanted to renovate Shea instead. I love Citi Field, but it looks like the Wilpons are possibly getting their due with the bills for the stadium basically swallowing them whole.
Nice rundown of the events that transpired.
Thole spent much of his time in the minors learning how to play 1B. The only reason he was up here in 2009 was because of Castro was traded and Schneider was hurt and all the organization had was he and Omir Santos.
Thole would be a perfect 3rd catcher on a MLB team but 29 other teams would still have him in the minors and 2012 will be the 4th year he’s been up here.
No need to explain Bayonne, everyone here knows “you will continue to attack” as you say. The only ones who dont realize that are moderators here.
It makes no sense to trade Wright this offseason. Whoever trades for him only get one year while the Mets gets two seasons if they keep him. If you want to trade Wright, don’t do it when his value is at its lowest, instead keep him for 2012 and trade him after you pick up his option for 2013. If he has a good 2012 season you’ll get more in a trade.
I fail to understand what is the big deal with what LaRussa said yesterday. He is merely saying that some people in MLB are making the same mistakes as some fans do when they interpret OBP to be about walks when it’s about plate discipline or in other words having a good eye at the plate.
Larussa says, “On-base percentage is one of the most dangerous concepts of the last seven, eight years because it forces “some” executives and coaches and players to think that it’s all about getting on base by drawing walks”
That is often the point where there seems to be the most disagreement or rather misinterpretation. OBP is not about walks and those that think so are wrong which is what Larussa said and I would have to agree with him.
LaRussa goes on to say “the fact is that the guys that have the best on-base percentage are really dangerous hitters whenever they get a pitch in the strike zone,”
In other words players that have a great eye at the plate or in other words great plate discipline. Which is what OBP is really about and what LaRussa also agrees that OBP is about.
So again I am not seeing what the commotion is about.
The BIG DEAL MNJ is that LaRussa is testifying that SOME folks who place too much importance on OBP (INCLUDING PLAYERS and GMs) don’t get it! LaRussa obviously feels too much importance is being placed on it!
INCLUDING many fans!
The DANGEROUS hitters are the ones with the High BA
Who is the one person here who has suggested these things yet gets taken to task by the Saber crowd?
Who has said OBP in and of itself is useless unless it is EARNED OBP which can only be checked by the BA and other factors?
Donal?
Xtreem?
jessup?
Or ME?
And it’s a big todo right now because Donal stepped right into it, Called LaRussa a know nothing for saying what you just did and he re-iterated two post after calling the guy who said it his usual malignant name calling adjective of the day!
Truth is some DO think high OBP means walk more!
EVEN in the MLB!
Becuase thats the EASY way to increase OBP when you are NOT a dangerous hitter and have a crappy BA!
And if the GM says I value OBP the PLAYER who would hit better if he actually could but can’t will try to walk more to make that GM happy and willing to keep him!
This goes PRECISELY to the old discussion of If a player doesn’t have x Number of walks per AB he won’t be promoted in the Minors.
What is that player going to do if he hears that?
TRY to WALK!
I think too much is being made from this and has been for some time. LaRussa merely expressed similar thoughts.
Right and was called a Know Nothing by the guy who throws that phrase around like an old bag of garbage EVEN at people who he AGREES with!
Read Dona;s response!
He called LaRussa a KNOW NOTHING and then stated the reason why was because he agreed with everything LaRussa said!
It’s SOMETHING because it goes to show how QUICK Donal is to deride someone even when they are CORRECT because he is more interested in maligning people than what they actually said!
What i will say is that LaRussa in my opinion said it best when he said, “the guys that have the best on-base percentage are really dangerous hitters whenever they get a pitch in the strike zone” that is what it’s about.
If Donal disagrees with this then whatever but in my opinion LaRusssa probably did the best to explain that obp is about as he said “dangerous hitters” not walkers as I have seen others try to suggest.
I agree with LaRussa…
Just saying if OBP does not really tell you WHO the dangerous hitter is, what does and why is OBP more important than THAT?
The argument that OBP is better than BA has been thrown around like some basic principle of the laws of physics but the truth is if what LaRussa said IS TRUE, then what determines a “DANGEROUS HITTER” better OBP or BA and why is OBP then better than BA to judge HITTERS?
LaRussa is VERY correct in what he said but it hs been argued many times that he is wrong because some people think OBP doesn’t lie and is better than finding the DANGEROUS hitter.
You find him via BA and only after that look at OBP to see if he has a good eye when he does NOT get strikes!
Thats pretty much what I have been arguing for a year and been told was WRONG by the Saber crowd here!
And now the patron Manager of Sabermetrics says the same thing so he must be as big an idiot as metsie!
THATS why I made a big thing about it MNJ!
Because it shows that they BELIEVE what I say when the subject isn’t about how bad OBP is but even a when someone who BELIEVES in it says otherwsie the first word out of their moutch is DERISION for HERESY!
All PRaise the high Exhaulted OBP If not OFF with the head of the heathen!
Fair enough Metsie. I am more of the to each his own as far as what an individual likes more or less. I really don’t see 1 stat as better than another. If you find more value in BA for example than say OBP fine. If someone else feels the opposite fine as well. It is an individual choice. It’s when it gets to the point of telling someone that they are wrong to value one over the other that I have always taken an exception to.
Personally I have always found that it’s the combination of differing stats where I really get a truer picture not the exclusion of them.
You see MNJ if the Saber side took your position and didn’t just resort to maligning those who say that as CRAZY for looking at BA before OBP we wouldn’t have the arguments we have been having!
its people turning his words into their own views to make themselves feel smart. As if Tony L is always right about everything.
No team is building their roster by sorting OBP. It’s just not happening yet people here want to start a fight because they assume people like Donal think that way.
what kind of an IDIOT are you. I hope Joe D notices how you ran in the shoutbox like mommie’s little boy and tried to set me up with i guess was supposed to be a loaded question in your own mind.
Are you that detached that you actually think any one person who likes a manager or coach or GM must like EVERY decision they make?
This is not even about baseball now. You come across like a little woody allen type coward and would have his lunch handed to him if this was real life.
And you’re a WRITER on this site? IF i was Joe D i would tell you to take you’re little Irving R. Shyster act somewhere else you little coward.
No it’s people turning his view into a stupid view and then saying the same thing two posts later!
You know who I mean?
Your best cheerleader?