4
2011
No Thanks To C.J.
An article by 
As I slowly get myself back into the mix here at MMO, I’m starting to realize there is an absolutely ridiculous campaign going on for the Mets to pursue C.J. Wilson in free agency.
I think what bothers me the most about where our fan base is right now is the love affair with doing things over and over again after they have proven to not work.
What exactly has C.J. Wilson done in his career that makes a Mets fan covet him in free agency? Why is there a love affair with signing players past their prime who are destined to decline while in a Mets uniform? The Mets finished under .500 for the 3rd straight year, signing a player who will decline sooner than later doesn’t do this franchise any good.
In C.J. Wilson’s only 2 years as a starter, he’s given up 167 walks! You don’t win in Citi Field by giving up free bases. Just ask Mike Pelfrey and Oliver Perez.
Wilson’s hits allowed would likely drop in Citi Field (depending on park changes), but his walks won’t change. His actual ability to control his pitches will not be effected.
I think we need to start understanding as a group that this team is not ready to win it all. When you’re 1 piece away, sure maybe you consider a move like Wilson. However, this team is riddled with question marks right now. You don’t add a starting pitcher at 31 years old with poor control if you have 6-7 other spots you need to focus on.
The truth is, IF (big If) Santana comes back healthy next year, the Mets can realistically get away with going on the cheap in the rotation. Signing a guy like Wilson doesn’t make their CF, C, maybe SS, and almost entire bullpen better.
Realistically speaking, a rotation with a healthy Santana-Niese-Dickey-Pelfrey-Capuano/Gee is actually good enough in the NL if the other spots are taken care of. Signing Wilson only adds to expectations that shouldn’t be present. It’s putting a band-aid on a leak and hoping nobody pays attention to the real problems.
It looks like Pelfrey is coming back, so there may be nothing a Mets fan can do about that. If the Mets were to sign Wilson, who does he replace that he’s so much better than? Niese? Gee? Dickey?
It’s not that big of an upgrade, especially when you consider the money it would cost which in essence takes any available money away from any real needs the Mets have.
If we agree the Mets have limited funds this year (whether we like it or not), then we need to start wishing that they use those funds in a more creative and intelligent way rather than just grabbing a guy because he seems like the best free agent available.
If the roster is as we expect it is going into the Hot Stove, signing C.J. Wilson would be a terrible decision.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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If his walks were such an issue, why is it that he pitched so well in Texas, which is known as a hitter’s ballpark? One would think those walks would hurt more there, than in Citi. Just saying.
I’m pretty sure Sandy Alderson knows better.
PERHAPS THERE ARE FANS WHO WISH TO CORNER THE MARKET ON INITIALIZED PLAYERS RA,DJ WE’VE GIOT WE DON’T NEED NO STINKIN’ CJs, CC CERTAINLY BUT NOT CJ. BTW, I’M AN EXPERT ON THE OPIC AS ,Y PREFERRED MONIKER IN REALITY IS MY 1st 2 INITIALS NOT MY ‘GIVENS’
The only way this team is going to win is to build from the ground up. We need to contiune on to stock the farm system.
Yes we are going to be bad in 2012….We should start to turn the corner in 2013…we should contend in 2014.
Nobody wants to say it but there are more holes in this team than “Swiss Cheese” and a free agent here and there is not going to do it!
Rich is completely right.
You cannot make up for the work not done 5-10 years ago in your own farm system every off season.
Why does everyone insist on playing fantasy baseball every year?
No team in MLB has to go out and find 12 new players every year.
Between the ML roster and AAA depth that’s the position we find ourselves in every single off season.
What are the questions the Phillies have this off season? Resigning Rollins? An arm or two in the pen? Back up catcher? That’s about it.
Braves? one arm in the pen probably in house, Dump Lowe, look for a LF bat and make Prado a super sub and get a new hitting coach.
Nationals? SS, CF, maybe 1 starting pitcher, resign Coffey, backup MI Deal one of Ramos, Norris, Flores. That’s it.
US? Resign Reyes, tender Pelfrey and Pagan, find at least one competent defensive catcher (probably Nickeas), maybe a starting pitcher, 4th and 5th OFer’s and 4 spot’s in the pen.
Someday we’re going to have to make a concerted effort to provide our own solutions, AHEAD of time rather than sitting around and seeing “who’s available” every year.
Considering that the 1st rd pick is protected, you’ll net 2 picks from Reyes and lose your 2nd rounder for CJ. So you’ll actually go from having a 1st rd. and 2nd rd pick with Jose back at the SS spot (at 110 mil or so for 6 years) to two 1st rd pipcks, a supp. rd. pick and CJ at prob 90 mil for 5 years. That’s assuming you can’t sign both.
Steve Phillips is that you ???
Do you actually take the time to read the comments you reply to???Or do you just spout out whatever comes to mind………
You are the met fan that is being spoken about in this article!!!!
#ClueLess
Steve Phillips never worried about draft picks. Just the interns…
We have so many holes so lets make more?
Why not get rid fo Wright Reyes Tejada Duda too!
Thats starting from scratch!
we all know sandy won’t spend the money regardless, so of course, you took it upon yourself to look for an excuse to defend sandy for not signing this guy. we all know he’s 31, we all know he’s only had 2 good years in baseball we get that, but if he joins the team he automatically becomes the best pitcher the mets have. how bad is that? but hey, don’t worry, MONEY SAVING SANDY is not even looking CJ’s way. we’ll be lucky if he attempts to give reyes a fair offer. he’s already thinking about the draft picks he’ll get if he loses him…
LOL Money Saving Sandy. HE’S OLD! Ever heard of the saying “Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”? That’s something you should realize. We’ve been down this road before…CJ Wilson would be the next Jason Bay, the next Johan Santana.
Thank goodness Sandy Alderson isn’t the next Omar Minaya. That guy was a gigantic moron.
The gigantic moron has a higher winning percentage as a GM than Sandy Alderson.
A higher winning percentage does not equate championship – I want a championship as a fan, not a higher winning percentage.
joesmith,
If you want a championship, you better not be thinking of any while sandy is here, who by the way, hasn’t won crap since his years in oakland. remember, all the way back in 1989 when a lot of mmo bloggers weren’t even born…
We’ll see……………
Keep rooting against it because fans like you would rather have the team fan to say “I told you so”, then actually have the team win and say “I was wrong”
Joe Torre was not a successful manager for many years, lost many jobs as a manager, went into the booth, then went back and managed the Yankees……….and then what?
That’s right, because someone has never had a title before, that means it will NEVER ever happen with another team, history has proven that right?
GROW UP
Should have read “would rather have the team fail”
alderson did win a championship in oakland. also, i am not rooting against alderson, come on man, been a mets fans for more than 30 years!!!
what bother me is how a guy like minaya who kept trying to build a championship contender was taking all the heat for moves alderson made last offseason, ppl here were going gogo gaga about alderson’s greatness, yet the man did nothing, ppl here were saying is omar’s fault, fine, go ahead, but is he showing any sign at all that what he did last year is not gonna be a repeat this year?? he already signed byrdak, and is talking about the draft picks he’ll get for reyes, what does that tell you?!?
It tells me, that you are still making up garbage for your own agenda. You hear what you want, read what you want, but yet keep missing what is really going on, pity.
GOGO GAGA? what is that? Are you that immature?
Minaya tried to build a championship contender, maybe he tried, but trying does not mean he did it. He failed.
Do you want me to list all the bad signings of Omar? The list is long, but you are ignoring that and keep bringing up Byrdak.
I’m really sick of you saying the same crap and people correcting you, it’s like talking to a brick wall, and I’m the idiot for even trying. You don’t get it now, you won’t get it tomorrow, you’ll never get it.
You’ve been a Mets fan for 30 years, supposedly, but after 24 years of not getting it done, you want more of the same? Ok, good luck with that.
Right on the money Joe Smith.The same 3-4 guys keep harping on the minor moves that Alderson made and are using that to judge him instead of seeing the big picture.Alderson is building the entire organization from the ground up,he’s building up the farm system, much in the same way that Frank Cashen did.Why do these same 3 guys have a problem with this? Do you guys(Omar Fan,Alex,Bayonne) not want a team built to go on an extended run of contending like Philly is now,the Yanks for 15 year,the braves for 15 years? You actually think Alderson was dumb enough to add more bad contracts last offseason to a rotten core of players.Despite what you guys think,this team was in no way shape or form contending for a playoff spot and Wilpon was not going to allow Sandy or any other GM to come in here and add payroll to the 2011 roster.Grow up already and root for the new regime to build a winner like we had here in the 80′s.Omar failed,move on.Whether it was bad luck,bad contracts weak drafts,injuries,he failed. Joe Smith is right you guys are rooting for Sandy to fail so you can say I told you so.”Sandy loves saving money” give me a break.He had a top 5 payroll in Oakland.Do a little research and then root for your team.
Very well said.
I really didn’t like the offseason that much mainly because of the bullpen. I felt it was downgraded from what it was a year before. And there was plenty of arms available that we could have signed.
So, I felt the team was WEAKER than it was the year before – That’s why I didn’t like the offseason – If you looked at the 2010 bullpen and the 2011 bullpen, you would see that the 2010 was MUCH better… I don’t know how having a weaker bullpen is only “minor” thing – A bad bullpen can kill a team, it’s not minor thing, it’s a big deal.
And I don’t buy the argument that the GM is somehow justified by not improving the team because “we had no chance anyway”. The GM should ALWAYS be looking to improve the team, even if your in last place – If you don’t sign a guy that would help you out because you don’t think your team is any good, then you probably shouldn’t be a GM in the 1st place.
But you have to realize that not every guy that was available wanted to come here. I know you’ve said in the past we could have just paid them double, and in the past that’s probably what we would have done. I really don’t thin that was an option this year and all available information seems to coorroberate that feeling.
You’ve also stated that we could have given two years instead of just one and certainly in Carrasco’s case your right. Choate would have been a better guy to give two years to instead of Carrasco. Score one for your side.
Amongst the many names you provided a week or so ago were plenty of guys who got 2.5 – 3.5 M each when we signed guys for 750 – 1.1.
There were also numerous names that gave of players who were hurt and yet that’s what you griped about all off season. That all we were doing was signing guys that were hurt and now your complaining we didn’t sign more guys who were hurt. Doesn’t make any sense.
Included in your list was guys that made 11 starts all year or 9 or 5. Yeah we could have signed them but how would they have helped?
There were quite a few names on that list that no one talked about all off season. Voglesong, Melky Cabrrera, Francouer, Cruz and a few others.
There were also a few missing that people talked about that wound up not making it through even just the first half of the season. Francis and Garland for instance. They would have helped? Garland got 5M even though the Dodgers knew he was hurt.
We even had to sign a few guys to minor league contracts in order to ensure some sort of depth. What kind of players sign minor league deals? All Stars?
Some of those guys signed contracts a couple of weeks after Alderson took the job. He didn’t even get a chance to sign some of them.
Minaya didn’t sign too many guys his first year either. Doug Mientcavage and Miguel Cairo as I recall. Great options are not always available at every position every year in enough abundance to go around.
The only question that really should be asked is why does this team have to sign 13 free agents every year? No one else has to do that, how come we do?
That wasn’t a list of guys I wanted the Mets to sign, it was a list of players who played better than the guys the Mets signed – It’s not what your saying it is.
Your also taking my quote about Harang out of context – My point was that since he probably took less to play in SD, we would have had to pay more than what the Padres paid to sign him- So I said, if we offered double(7 million)he MIGHT do it…..and since Capuano’s contract I think went up to 4 million, my idea would have only cost the Mets 3 million.
And I ONLY said that about Harang, and nobody else. and I never said in the past we would have paid players double.
Another thing I talked about during the offseaon was bringing back Blanco. He would have been cheaper than Paulino, and would have given us much better defense… Last year, Santana and Pelfrey were raving about how good of a catcher he was – So I think losing him (and Barajas) was part of the reason why the Mets pitching took a step back this year.
And what do you mean “score one for my side”? I don’t have a “side”. I only said those things because I felt those moves would have made us a better team, that’s it! and just so you know, a lot of that stuff I said was BEFORE those guys were even signed!
The bullpen in 2010 had Feliciano and Takahashi.Feliciano wanted 8 million for 2 years,Sandy offered arbitration and he declined and thanks to the Yankees being foolish enough to give a LOOGY 8 million over 2 years we got a 1st round pick Micheal Fullmer out of that.Takahashi wanted 15 million over 3 years and that was not in the Wilpon Budget.He only gave Sandy 5 Million to work with,it wouldn’t have been a smart move to use the whole budget on Takahashi.Who are the guys that Sandy should’ve signed while staying within the budget? I keep hearing Sandy coulda shoulda but no one is backing that up with players he should’ve signed.
Takahashi signed for 2yrs 8 million. And the other guy I wanted was Choate.
Those were my two top bullpen guys..
And Agee I never said I wanted Francis or Garland – I didn’t like them.
But Vinny, How can you say that Wong for instance was better? he only made a handful of starts? All in August and September? Or Millwood?
Harang WOUND up only costing 3 M more because Capuano hit on all of his incentives. Harang didn’t sign an incentive laden deal and you yourself even admit that we would have had to pay him even a lot more. Plus he’s already made 40 M in his career. He and his wife are from SD. She was having twins. They wanted to go to
SD. You cannot always get every guy you would like.
Juan Cruz, Melky Cabrrera, Jeff Francouer off their 2010′s? c’mon.
Dotel at 3.5 M almost the same as we paid? Uhera at 3M? Bedard who resigned with Seattle a couple weeks after Alderson got the job?
How about Garland and Francis?
You can make a list like this every single year, with every single GM but did you? Did you make a list like this of guys we could have gotten every off season or just this one?
How many guys on that list took minor league contracts? We signed guys to minor league deals to increase depth just in case. Remember there were many many unsettled spots on the 25 which goes back to the question I asked.
How come we have to sign 13 free agents or so every off season? No one else has to do that. Not even Tampa who lost a lot of guys to free agency. It’s ridiculous. Every year 4 new guys in the bullpen, a new starting pitcher or two, a couple of guys on the bench or 4, tryouts at one or two positions, at least one expensive free agent you dump and another one you wish you could. Some AAA depth. It’s unreal.
Again Agee, that list wasn’t abou who I wanted the Mets to sign, it was about who was better than the players the Mets signed.
And the reason why I made the list was because somebody asked for it! I wasn’t the one that came up with the idea.
Wang and Millwood did do better because they made more starts than Young, and pitched pretty good – That’s why they were on there.
Yes we had to pay more Harang, and that was because he was better than Capuano.
I know you can’t always sign all the players you want, but I also know that not every player you want won’t play for you either – It works both ways.
And to be fair Vinny the two guys you wanted the most Harang and Choate would have made a big difference. They were outstanding suggestions and while I think we had no chance of Harang we probably blew it with choate.
I just have a problem with including some guys like Voglesong (who knew), Colon (another injured pitcher), Garcia (like he would have come here after 2009), Juan Cruz (5 IP in 2009) Millwood (9 starts), Wang (11), Sherrill (6.69 ERA in 2010), Kotchman (?), Bloomquist (?), Melky, or Dotel (3.5 M), Qualls ( 2.5 M), Saito (1.75 M), Garland (5 M)
Mostly I just can’t understand why Alderson gets all the blame when the blame really belongs to the Wilpon for cheaping out on scouting, developing and signing players that would allieviate the need for 13 guys off the scrap heap every year especially since their now counting nickels.
When they had it they were cheap, now that they don’t have it their even cheaper and their hiding behind Alderson and letting him take all the PR flack as if all these Boof Bonser types are his ideal of a well rounded roster.
It’s hard enough to round out your pen when you have the cash. Just look at Schowenweiss and Mota, but it’s really hard when you have no cash and no roster spots.
That’s next to impossible.
NJ stuck in TX:
“Can you provide this list of similarly paid players that performed better?”
Vinny B:
“Harang, Wang, Millwood, Vogelsong, Colon, Garica, Bedard, Choate, Coffey, Jaun Cruz, Dotel, Qualls, Saito, Sherrill, Koji Uheara, Dan Wheeler, Kotchman, Bloomquist, Andruw Jones, Melky Caberera, and finally….Jeff Francoeur.
All are around the same price as the guys Bayonne listed, and all played a lot better.”
As you can see, the question had nothing to do with who I wanted the Mets to sign, or anything to do with how they played in 2010. It was about who played better in 2011, and they all did.
Similarly paid players?
You mean like Dotel who got 3.5 M? Qualls 2.5 M? Saito 1.75 M? Uhera 3 M? Wheeler 3M + vesting option? Andruw Jones 2M? Harang 4.3 M?
Those guys were paid 2, 3, or 4 times what the guys Alderson signed got and don’t include Capuano’s incentives, those weren’t guaranteed in March.
And considering how much whining and screaming was going on here about Alderson signing injured pitchers last off season I really don’t see how it’s fair to include Wang, Millwood, Colon or Cruz and even Bedard for that matter anf Garcia wasn’t coming here after he got cut at the last possible second in 2009 either.
Joe Diaz says:
October 5, 2011 at 9:54 pm
“Who are the guys that Sandy should’ve signed while staying within the budget? I keep hearing Sandy coulda shoulda but no one is backing that up with players he should’ve signed”
Here you go. Figured you saw it since it’s been bandied about here the last few days:
“Vinny B:
“Harang, Wang, Millwood, Vogelsong, Colon, Garica, Bedard, Choate, Coffey, Jaun Cruz, Dotel, Qualls, Saito, Sherrill, Koji Uheara, Dan Wheeler, Kotchman, Bloomquist, Andruw Jones, Melky Caberera, and finally….Jeff Francoeur.”
All it is is a list of guys that all could have been signed but were not.
(maybe with the exception of Francoeur because he was moved by the Mets last year) Why isn’t anybody saying trading Francoeur was a bad move by Omar now?
I’m not saying I was aware of EVERYBODY who was available during last winter and I’m sure there’s even MORE players that were signed that I don’t even know about.
The point is not only Alderson but his other 2 assistants Depo & Riccardi could have put their heads together and come up with a better off season than we did. They should have been AWARE of everybody out there and if they wanted to complete with the budget they were given they most certainly could have.
We have in essence 3 general managers and this list below is the best they could do last year?
Taylor Tankersley
Taylor Bucholz
Brad Emaus
Boof Bonser
Chin Lung Hu
Chris Young
DJ Carassco – for 2 years!!
Pedro Beato
THREE GENERAL MANAGERS!! And this is the best they can do
Sure nobody knew that all those other players would have contributed to their team’s success like they did but the teams that signed them were willing to take a risk. And the risk paid off for them. If our Three Amigos were willing to take a chance and win with the budget that was given to them and it they are so smart like all their fans keep saying than they SHOULD have pulled it off.
Trading Francouer wasn’t a bad move by the Minaya. It would have been nice to get something for him though. I guess when your organization employs just one scout for the entire NL that doesn’t lend itself to identifying talent in the AL.
Francouer wouldn’t have been tendered a contract here in 2011 because his best role is as a platooned RFer, getting 1/3rd of the AB’s at most and as a late inning defensive replacement. With a 2010 base of 5 M he would have gotten at least 6 as a part time player with a returning Beltran not needing to be in a platoon so he was a good guy to trade, wish we had traded him for someone in A ball who had a bit of upside and was still with our organization though.
Arias did play in the Royals system in the PCL this past year. He played mostly 3B and is now organization filler, emergency AAA depth.
Your missing my point. I’m not saying we should have signed all those guys!!!!!!!!! I never said to sign Wang or Gracia during the offseason. I was asked to list the players who signed for around the same price that played better, and that’s who they were.
I don’t know how I can make it any more clear.
And Carrasco signed for 2.5 million. And that IS similar to the guys I listed.
The only issue I take is that Harang pitched better than Capuano. That’s simply not true. Harang did better than I expected after his last three seasons, but aside from ERA, Cap had better numbers in just about every other category. And Cap’s ERA was inflated because he had some games he just melted down, but overall he was better than Harang.
No it’s not. 2.5 M over two years is not the same as 3 or 3.5 M over one.
Not the same thing at all.
At extra M shouldn’t be the breaking point for us granted but your talking an extra M for 10-13 guys. That represents the entire budget alone.
All the guys I listed signed under 5 million, and none of them signed for more than 2 years. That’s similar to the guys we signed.
….and there was a few of them that signed minor league contracts.
Vinny, I wouldn’t even bother anymore.
The last several posts are you trying to get the guy to understand a simple point. I know you’re just trying to convey a general idea and it’s not a “right or wrong” issue.
He’s just cannot grasp the essence of what you’re trying to say.
He’ll respond with a 567 paragraph manifesto but not even attempt to consider a general point someone is trying to make. Or he can’t.
That is an artificial and arbitrary cutoff you imposed that just obscures the comparison your trying to make. Alderson signed guys for an average of 1 M apiece. 13M total on 13 guys. Not less than 5 M apiece.
I think Alderson could have done better myself but then when I think of 2010 and Mike Jacobs, Gary Matthewa Jr., Alex Cora (and vesting option), Frank Catolonotto, Fernando Tatis, Ryota Igarashi, Rod Barajas and Jason Bay I realize it could have been much worse too.
That was with about 75 M to spend.
So I think all in all the last off season was moving in a better direction, by a lot.
Cap’s contract went up to 4 million anyway. you can say it wasn’t garunteed and all that, but guess what? we still have to pay it!
None of those players cost more than what we had to pay Cap.
If the Mets didn’t have to money to pay the guys I was talking about, then how are they able to pay Capuano 4 million???
33 M wasn’t even available to be spent last off season as it was already spent on Bay, Castillo, GMJ and Perez.
That’s not the kind of situation Minaya walked into in 2005.
Capuano took an incentive laden deal. What does that say about his other options?
Harang didn’t have to take a contract with incentives.
What it says is that 25 years after becoming a full 50% partner the Wilpon simply cannot, any longer get **** play for guaranteed dollars.
I don’t get what that has to do with my point.
None of the players I listed cost more than Capuano – If we could afford him, then we could afford the players I listed.
The point Vinny is that we could afford Capuano (and Young) if they hit their incentives, if they didn’t, we couldn’t afford them hence the base salary + incentives.
All those other guys got their full salaries guaranteed. No matter what. Plus they got paid their base throughout the first half and then started adding to it which helped with making payroll.
I know it’s a small thing but when your watching nickles everything matters.
But I know your smart enough to understand the difference and how that affects your ability to get the better player that actually has solid options elsewhere.
If your question is could Alderson have done better with the 13M he had. Sure he could have. Could Cashman, Riggleman, Epstein, Wren, Dombroski or anyone else. Hell yeah. All of them could have done better.
Personally I would liked to have seen what Alderson could have done with Perez, Castillo’s, GMJ’s, Igarachi’s and Bay’s salary.
I think he could have done a hell of a lot better. Santana’s too. He had an awful lot of money already spent for 2011 before he even walked in the door, much of which he never got a single AB or out from. Probably about 55M dollars.
So yeah I’m curious to see how he can do when he does have a few bucks to spend and not so many “holes to fill.”
The new GM only spent 7.5% of the entire budget. The rest of it was spent for him beforehand and your saying “he could have done better?”
I would bet anything that if he had 75M to spend it wouldn’t look anything like the 2010 off season.
Of course,
I was just making a point that for all the talk about how bad Omar was, he actually had a better record as GM than Alderson.
Alderson had a nice run with A’s for a few years, but for the most part, his teams were pretty bad – He’s had only four winnning seasons in 16 years as a GM! he won a championship, and that’s great and all, but your telling me that we should just ignore the fact that he’s only had four winning seasons in 16 years? That’s not a concern to you? Not even just a little bit? or what about his teams not having a winning season since 1992?
Just because I’m not thrilled with the GM doesn’t mean that I’m rooting for him to fail. I’m sure you criticized Omar a lot when he was the GM right? does that mean you were rooting for the Mets to fail then? No, of course it didn’t.
I think the difference is that nobody was criticizing Minaya from his first week on the job. I know I didn’t. There were several big mistakes that I felt Minaya made but I never said a word until Sept of 2009. Almost five years into his tenure.
Many here started in on Alderson 5 days into his tenure.
a championship huh, that’s the one thing you never hear sandy talk about.
No he talked about building the mts into an iconic franchise,like the Yanks and Redsox.He talked about an extended period of excellence.
Exactly.
Alderson has said that he doesn’t see how it’s possible for this team to not make the post season more often than not. He’s just not taking the Rex Ryan approach because he’s got some work to do and very little to work with unless he sets us back in future years. He also has very little to work with in resources.
A big part of the ups and downs on the field and in ticket sales can be traced to the constant cycle of big expectations followed by big disappointment. Without the guns (regardless of how other people feel, he’s the GM) he’s probably wise to under sell the post season at least to the public. What’s said behind closed doors is a different matter and one that we’re not privy to either. If you think public comments mirror private ones in any business your pretty naive.
He did emphatically state that 85 wins was doable on the radio last off season and from there…….He also made the players play to their full capacity which hasn’t really been the case here for a long time. Who knows what bringing in three big salary guys would have allowed that to take root. Probably would have killed the change in culture.
After playing below expectations for so long now it was refreshing to see them exceed them for a change. Sometimes less is actually more.
Besides talk is cheap anyway. Who wants a guy who talks a good game?
And that gigantic moron helped put a team together that made the post season in his 2nd year as GM. Let’s see if Alderson can do that. Alderson actually had a chance to one up Omar if he gave more than a half hearted attempt to try and help the roster that he inherited last winter. He COULD have done a better job and he should have if he was so smart. But he had an absolutely HORRIFIC off season last year because there were other guys he could have gotten within his budget that could have helped this team more than the guys he got. Looks like a very bad job of evaluating talent to me.
Alderson isn’t trying to match Minaya. He’s looking to match Cashen.
I know there are those here who thinks Minaya was better as a GM than Cashen because it took Cashen 4 years to make the playoffs, but those people aren’t very bright.
I can’t believe fans are dumb enough to think the GM sets the budget.It’s figgin comical.So Sandy has to make the playoffs next year to match Omar.No Sandy has to continue cleaning up the mess that Omar left.What are you guys smoking.Is Omar better than cashen as a GM? If I’m not mistaken he didn’t have a winning season until his 5th season in 1984.Mainly due to the garbage left by the previous GM.Please name the players that Sandy could’ve or should’ve acquired last offseason that was within the 5 million dollar budget that Wilpon gave hm to work with.Don’t just dislike this post,name the players he could’ve acquired that would’ve kept this team contending.Please do,I can’t wait to hear about your dream.Naaah I’ll just get the same 4 knuckle heads to just dislike this post without saying who he could’ve gotten.Also Omar was given an open checkbook.he went out and signed Pedro and Beltran,the next offseason he signed Wagner and acquired Delgado and LoDuca in 2 seperate salary dumps.The same way he landed Santana,a salary dump.He didn’t trade for prospects that blossomed into stars.They were already stars he just had to hand over a check and a few mid range prospects in salary dumps.Yeah Omar was real creative,he created the present day Mets.Sop with this insanity comparing GM’s by their won-lost records.By the standards of you guys,Frank Cashen should’ve been fired well before 1984.
If you think the Frank Cashen situation is anything remotely close to the situation today than you really underestimate the people here. Cashen’s situation was totally different than Sandy or Omar’s. Cashen inherited a team that had been bad for years and we all knew at the time that it would take awhile. That’s if you were even around back then..or did you read about it in a book?
Sandy inherited a team that can still contend but just didn’t the last couple years mainly because of injuries. Especially 2009.
And it didn’t even cross my mind who would think how the budget is established. I assumed it was established by the owners and I’m sure most people would already know that. When you think about it if you assume people here think that the budget is established by the GM than maybe you should reevaluate your thought process.
Where did you read that somebody said the GM sets the budget?
And the young guys that everybody talks about now, the ones that helped make this season worth watching after Alderson got rid of Beltran and K-Rod are kids that came from the Omar Minaya regime.
Again, I wanted Omar fired at the time like MOST people here did. The big argument that is happening now is the unfair second guessing that people are NOW doing and accusing Omar of a lot of things that are not true. And way too many people are claiming how great Alderson is already. And they started claiming how great he was even before his 1st off season with the Mets. One site even started calling themselves Alderson Avenue. Do they still do that? Even after the HORRIFIC offseason Alderson had? And after the reputation he’s starting to get for being a guy who puts winning second? We can TRY to win now AND build for the future, it’s not a new concept by the way.
One more thing about establishing budgets since I’m not an owner of a GM. Maybe somebody who has actual experience can shed light. But my best guess is that naturally the budget comes from the owner and him and the GM naturally discuss and maybe the GM can express some ideas that can lead to the owner grabbing money from other sources to add to the budget. I’m just guessing there cuz i’m sure than can be many scenarios. But make no mistake the guy who does the hiring is the with the budget. Start with that.
correction – owner OR a Gm
First off I’m 45 years old,so I didnt have to read a book on how the 86 Mets were built,I lived it.I remember the moron Met fans that wanted Cashens head when he shipped Maz to Texas for Darling and Terrell.My point is you guys think unless Sandy makes the playoffs in 2012 he’s done a worse job than Minaya,because Minaya made it to the playoffs in his 2nd year.That’s the dumbest way to compare the two.Does Alderson have carte blanche signing free agents like Minaya did in his 1st offseason as GM? Do you think Alderson had the financial backing of the Wilpons to go out and sign a Pedro for 52 Mil and Beltran for 119 Mil? Minaya took over a 2004 team wih a much much lower payroll than the 2010 team that Alderson took over.Even if Alderson didn’t spend one cent and filled the 8 roster spots he had to fill with MLB minimum salary players,the payroll was still 135+ million.Omar took over a team with an even 100 million dollar payroll not counting the expiring contracts.Between Beltran and Pedro they added 30 million a year right there and don’t forget Delgado turned them down to sign with Florida and that was another 13 million.Delgado said Omar tried to play the Latino atmosphere card and that’s what turned him off.I think it’s because Florida has no state income tax which made the value of Florida’s deal much more.Did Alderson have that flexibility his 1st offseason? Be fair! And I’m still waiting to hear the names of the players Alderson could’ve added to help this team compete for a wldcard.Even if he wanted to,there was no way he was able to add contracts like Lee,Crawford or Werth.Even those 3 guys wouldn’t have made enough of a difference.Remember he had 5 million to work with and he ended up spending around 6 Million to bring the payroll to 142 before cutting Ollie and Gastillo.I said that the owner sets the budget and not the GM cause you guys keep insisting Sandy doesn’t want to spend money.It’s not Sandy who doesn’t,it’s Wilpon who don’t.You even said the article yesterday was to deflect the blame from Sandy to Wilpon if Reyes walks as if Sandy won’t spend the money.If you recall.The A’s were a top 5 payroll team under Alderson.moneyball was under Beanes watch not Alderson.Working with the Mets resources is what intrigued him about the job.He’s just not going to sign 40 year old injury prone types like Alou and give up draft picks in doing so.He will spend money alot more wisely than Minaya.So while Cashens situation was different from Minaya’s,so was Alderson’s from Minaya’s. There’s another Omar guy on here that talks as if Minaya was the 2nd coming of Branch Rickey.Meanwhile in 6 drafts the Mets do not have one impact player on the MLB roster or down on the farm.We’re still waiting for the IFA’s to develope.Only Tejada has contributed anything so far.The jury is still out on quite a few of them.You know the names,I see you comment on them often IE Valdespin.If he was this great draft guru as Omar fan claims then where are the impact players.Where’s the next Reyes? The next Edgardo Alfonzo? What we got from Omar is a bunch of serviceable major leauers and most are the same type player.All stick no glove.Murphy,Duda,Lutz,Satin,Evans are all corner INF or LF’ers.Where’s our Ryan Braun? Matt Cain? Chase Utley? All I wanted was one,he didn’t have to hit on every round.Despite what some of you guys think,there were far too many holes to think Sandy could plug and contndwith.No one knew Tran would play as well or stay healthy all year,Wright still can’t get a hit with the game on the line if his family’s lives depended on it,Bay still sucks,Ike was still a baby,the catching situation sucks,bullpen was horrible before spring training started,2nd base was unsettled,no Johan.I looked at 2011 as a year which we hoped Beltran could get healthy enough for a deadline deal,which he did,getting out from K-Rods albatross of an option for 2012 and hoping Ike woild build on his rookie year,which he was and a few young young kids getting a chance to show they’re worth keeping around when the team is ready to truly contend for a long period of time like Cashens Mets did.I never thought for one second any GM could work enough magic to turn this thing around to compete with Philly or even a wildcard.Injuries aside,we’re just not that good.there’s just no mental toughness on any of the guys except Johan.And those horrible moves Sandy made didn’t cost the team much interms of dollars or draft picks. Alderson I guess is getting accolades from people on this site because he’s had success in the past and the way he goes about building a team has been a recipe for success for all the successful teams we’re watching now.Build from within and when you’re ready then you sign the big free agent to supplement the talent you’ve developed as well as use your prospects as trade chips.We’re just not there yet.
Sorry about the t agee type long lengthy post.lol
The enter key is your friend!
Nice post though. And in retrospect, you can always look at the filler signings (scrap heap guys) that every team goes through to some extent to fill out the roster, and find guys that way overshot expectations. But, most of them were not expected before the year (otherwise, they would not have been scrap heap).
Is snagging one of the few good luck? good scouting? both? probably more luck, since in most cases, 28 or so other teams were not interested enough to do more than a ST invite!
As to Sandy’s mission, of course (and he had said so early on) he would love to have lots more payroll. But, he recognizes a budget, and is going to put the best team on the field possible with that budget.
It isn’t that he won’t spend money (just because he doesn’t want to), just that he doesn’t have it to spend.
I always took his comments about the 110-110 to mean that he felt it was enough to put together a winner (after clearing off the dead albatross contracts), not that he refused to spend more just to make some kind of point!
kinda liking Joe Diaz!
Well it’s clear that many creative things have been done through the years to pump up the current payroll.
Take not going over slot or handing over or giving away first round draft choices?
How about employing one scout for the entire NL last year?
How about salary dump after salary dump after salary dump?
Plenty of things have been found that were able to divert money into this years payroll but at what cost?
Trying to win now and build for the future would absolutely be a new concept around here. How can you be building for the future when you’ve given away six first round draft choices, four 2nd round choices and three third round choices and turned your nose up at two more first round draft choices that were handed to you on a silver platter in the last 14 years?
Even the trades are 100% about right now. Never ever about something for later like say the Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps deal. Oh no. Every trade is our prospects for somebody’s former All Star.
Even when we have kept our choices we have drafted for relief pitchers who could possibly be up here in their first season. Joe Smith and Eddie Kunz were.
Everything has always been about this year here for 25 years and now suddenly we make a couple of longer ranged moves and you go ape****. Where was this win now AND build for the future from you the last 25 years?
Exactly!
T,
“Trying to win now and build for the future would absolutely be a new concept around here. ” CONSIDERING THE OVERALL SHAMBLES THAT EXISTED IN FLUSHING AT THE TIME U REFER ’04 TO ’05(MINAYA’S HIRING, HOW IS IT U PTOPOSE ANYONE SHOULD HASVE PROGRESSED TO IMPROVE UPON ’04s 4th PLACE FINISH? SINCE DUQUETTE HAS ALREADY GIVEN AWAY EVERY POTENTIALLY VALUABLE TRADEABLE VET THAT MAY HAVE BROUGHT A DECENT ‘CLOSE’ PROSPECT & THE ONLY VIABLE “RANKED” PROSPECT ON THE ENTIRE MULTILEVEL FARM WAS LASTINGS MILLEDGE? OK, NOW T, U’VE REGISTERED THAT IDENTICAL COMPLAINT FOR YEARS NOW, THAT REGIME IS KAPUT, TTHERE’S NOTHING THAT CAN CHANGE OMAR’S DIRECTION; HOWEVER U NEVER OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE PATH THAT WAS AVAILABLE OUTSIDE OF THE ONE HE CHOSE, THE TOP TIER FREE AGENT MARKET. ACQUIRING THE MUCH NEEDED “NOW ATTENTION, NOW PROFUCTION, NOW RESULTS AT THE COST OF THE TBD FUTURE PROMISES & ?s THAT ARE TOP DRAFT CHOICES. BEFORE U REWRITE HISTORY ENTIRELY, U MUST CONSIDER OMAR’S STATED INITIAL PLAN PRE BELTRAN SIGNING WAS REPLACING LOST PROSPECT TALENT BY POACHING TOP SEKLECTIONS FALLEN TO SECOND ROUND AKIN TO PRACTICES IN BOS & NYY. THAT, MY FRIEND, WAS CERTAINLY AN APPROPRIATE PATH TO WHAT U DESIRE,SIMULTANEOUS CURRENT IMPROVEMENT + FUTURE INVESTMENT
THAT HE SUPPOSEDELY WAS UNAWARE OF WILPON DECLARATIONS TO FOREGO THAT PATH WAS EITHER UNFORTUNATE OR INESPT; BUT AT LEAST IT WAS A VALIDLY CONSTRUCTED PLAN THAT WOULD HAVE SERVED WELL FOR 29 OTHER TEAMS. IN LIEU OF THAT DISAPPOINTING FAILURE, I’M STILL WAITING FOR YOUR PREFERRED SOLUTION TO ACCOMPLISHING IMPROVING THE ’04 TEAM REMNANTS THAT HAD #1 & 2 SP AS LIETER & GLAVINE ALONG WITH REHABBINMG FRANCO @ CL. WELL, T, I AWAIT YOUR ALTERNATIVE WITH BAITED BREATH…LMAO!
IN FACT, MY FRIEND, I STRONGLY SUGGEST U DIAL YOUR WAYBACK MACHINE EVEN FURTHER TO FIND THE INITIAL CAUSE FOR WANDERING AIMLESSLY FOR 25 OR SO YEARS THIS TEAM HAS SPECIALIZED IN. THAT SHOULD BRING U FACE TO FACE WITH MY VILLIAN OF CAUSATION, FRANK, OMG, CASHEN. WHO CHOSE TO RETIRE WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT TO SUPPLYING A FULLY ‘TRAINED BY HIM’ REPLACEMENT AS IN HIS OWN WORDS AT THE TIME, WHEN INTERVIEWED & ASKED FOR HIS RECOMMENDATION AS SUCESSOR, STATING HE HAD NO PREFERENCE TO SUGGEST AS HE EVALUATED EACH OF HIS ASSISTANTS AS “NEEDING” IMPORTANT COMPLETTIONS AS THERE WERE THOSE WITH BASEBALL TALENT EVALUATION QUALITIES(McILVANE, HARAZIN) & THOSE WITH CONTRACT CBA, NEGOTIATION EXPERTISE(PHILLIPS); BUT NONEE THAT POSSESSED ALL THE NECESSARY QUALITIES. YET DESPITE KNOWING HIS RETIREMENT WAS LEAVING A VOID IN HIS WAKE, HE PLANNED HIS ETIREMENT WITHOUT EVER ATTEMPTING TO FIND SOMEONE TO OCCUPY THAT VOID CAPABLY.
TO ME, THAT WAS TYHE STARTING POINT FOR OUR AIMLESSNESS.
’62,
I would find it a little hard to believe that Minaya was totally unaware of the slotting guidelines in place for the draft when he got the GM job. Granted his end of the amateur scouting was international where there are no slotting guidelines but he was still on the scene right? He was also a GM in the same division while he was gone right? OK. How would it really be possible for him not to at least have heard a casual rumour about slotting guidelines? I mean he was a young talent evaluator being charged with the task of rebuilding this team from the ground up with a consecutive decade of experience in the NL East right? Again how could he not know?
Secondly where was the pressure to make the World Series in his second year? No one was demanding that he win right off the bat. We had just been severely burned by going for it with the Zambranno deal and the back three years of the Phillips era. People knew it was going to take time.
I don’t blame him for putting his stamp on the team with Beltran and Martinez. That did a lot for us off the field as well as on and cost a #2 and #3 pick. Delgado was a salary dump, Wagner I wasn’t really excited about but OK. Then it just became a whole slew of guys he went after. Zito, Alou, Schowenweiss, Mota, Castillo, Santana, K-Rod, Bay. That’s no way to build a team from the ground up.
You never have enough at the ML level and you never have enough at the minor league level.
What I thought Minaya would do is make some trades of older guys he inherited, or picked up, not for right now guys but for guys in A+ and AA to form the beachhead. Make the sorts of trades that say Washington made with Minnesota for Wilson Ramos for a relief pitcher (Matt Capps) BAM. Catcher taken care of for 6 years. Sign guys in the off season with the intention of trading them at the deadline for higher ceiling guys 2-3 years away. Sell high and buy low using his evaluation skills to win the trade. This really was his forte and he did find some vets who gave him their last gasp as well so he was good at that too. What he was bad at was the free agent signing and he did way too much of that.
Making those moves that would have put young guys on the field here from 2007-2012 extracted from other teams systems, then backing them up with his IFA’s and mixing in a few type A free agents would have been a perfectly reasonable way to rebuild the whole thing up, and keep it going.
I don’t really think Minaya ever truly put a good scouting program together here. He seemed to rely on getting a lot of guys he knew from before. Guys that he was familiar with from his Montreal or Texas days. Not very much of under the radar type 2B in AA or live arms in A+, the sort of guys a good scouting dept comes up with.
Tatis, Schneider, Church, Endy, Bay, Livan, Caludio Vargas, Luis Ayala, Val Pascucci, Tony Armas, Mike O’conner were with him in the Montreal system. Oliver, Sele and Dickey were with him while he was in Texas.
All GM’s to some extent (and all people in general) probably think of people they know when they have a spot in mind but this really just reeks of “who can I get” rather than an organized approach to building a team from a scouting model and he should have known better than anyone! He was a scout.
There is no question that his scouts did a damn fine job on the international front in Venezuela, Panama and the DR and I would have to believe he did some of that himself and most of his trades, at least from a talent perspective were wins at the Major League level but where was the domestic scouting of other teams Minor League systems? A GM can’t do everything. Did he not have anyone that he trusted? Didn’t build up or even care that much about making a deadline deal as a seller in 2005 or 2009 to set himself up with a solution down the road?
He picked up a few guys like Turner, Pridie, Sullivan, Hessman, Dusty Owens, Luis Hernandez ect but they were all waiver wire deals, not trades.
I’ll always contend that Omar could have peaked into anyone’s system, figured out what they needed and extracted 10-12 guys in A- and A+ and even AA that would have come up here and played great. Much better than many of the free agents he signed and they would have been here a lot longer too and prevented the need to go out and sign so many retreads.
Having saved a lot of money by not trying to solve every need by going type A free agent, perhaps he would have been able to go over slot on 5-10 guys like Alderson did this year and with his eye…….
At the very least you would think that he could have waited to sign a couple guys until the non tender lists and rule 5′s came out before making his decision. Alou and Castillo were both signed a week or two before he even knew who was going to be available.
So there were many ways he could have gone about building the minors and the Majors without taking from one to give to the other.
yeah and cashen won because of key trades and free agent signings not just a good farm system.
What free agents did Cashen sign?
Foster was a trade, so was Knight, so was Hernandez and Carter, Ojeda, Darling, Sid, Hojo, Teufel and Heep. Gooden, Straw, Dykstra, McDowell, Mitchell, Elster, Magadan, Myers and Aguilera were draft choices. Orosco, Wilson and Backman were inherited.
Who were the free agents? Oh you mean Rafeal Santana signed as a free agent the day St. Louis cut him? Terry leach signed mid season the day Atlanta cut him?
What free agents are you referring to?
Foster was a free agent Agee! he signed a 5 year deal in the offseason before the 82 season.That team was built through the draft and trades though,just not Foster.
Joe, Foster was traded to us before he became a FA, kind of like a trade and sign deal. We gave the Reds Alex Trevino but you are right about that team. It was built through the draft and trades, not free agents.
That’s right I forgot about that.I only remembered the 5 yr 10 million he signed for.I totally forgot we gave up Trevino.Thanks.
The whole half hearted remarks are ignorant. He didn’t have a chance to one up Omar and when the hell did it become about GM VS GM, I follow baseball TEAMS…….
The guy was here 5 mins, had millions tied up in bad contracts, and a limited budget and you want a WS trophy.
Maybe you should stop being a half hearted fan
also overlooked is that a huge part of the initial mission was reworking the organization from the bottom up (player development, culture, everything). All part of building a solid foundation to build on for a sustained run of success.
cleaning out dead wood like ollie and castillo of course was part of this!
From all reports, the FO and organization was if nothing else dysfunctional. Starting right from Fred on down.
Yeah good note regarding History!
Do you know the World Series History of Moneyball appearances?
NONE!
What is Moneyball, and how EXACTLY is the NY Mets organization adopting that?
Hmmm lets see how much salary was cut this year?
Why are you not intending to sign Reyes?
What do you call it when your payroll is under 100 Mil?
and WHO invented Moneyball, really?
Sandy Alderson!
I don’t think Sandy is going to play this Moneyball by the way!
Only you yahoos (like you) who think because you didn’t win with Reyes that you can win anything without him believe that stupid crap!
You know the ones who are more concerned with how much we spend than you are with how much we win?
Who cares.Moneyball has nothing to do with the Mets.Alderson worked with a high payroll in Oakland.Billy Beane created the moneyball system.
I’d rather see the Mets spend more money on hiring Pelfrey an individual coach that could help him through the offseason and into spring training. Thats just my .02 Cents. Signing a starter right now outside of Cappy doesn’t make sense so I totally agree. I thought of something last night I wonder if Blanco really made that much of a difference in Pelfrey. He had a promising year but had big hiccups when Thole caught him. Maybe I am mis remembering but that sounds right. I would love for this team to become a build within but am not just focusing on draft picks. It is little wonder that pitchers leave the Mets and sometimes flourish. I know this happens to everybody now and then but good grief.
I don’t see the benfit in overpaying an average pitcher. Maybe he’s “good.” But if he is, he’ll soon deteriorate to average already being 31. Since he’s the only thing even worth looking at this off season, he’s going to be incredibly overpriced (see: Gil Meche, AJ Burnett, John Lackey). And not only that, he’d push Gee out of the rotation. It’s a nice pipe dream to think Pelfrey is going to be non-tendered, but reality is it most likely won’t happen. Santana, Pelfrey, Dickey and Niese, then who? Maybe if the Mets were one player away, you can overspend on an average pitcher at the expense of a future cog. The Mets don’t have that luxury.
According to Cot’s, free agent starters next year include Matt Cain, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Dan Haren, Tim Hudson, Shaun Marcum, Ervin Santana (has an option), James Shields (option), and lesser options include Kevin Correia, Jeremy Guthrie, Colby Lewis, Anibal Sanchez and Jonathan Sanchez. THAT’S when you spend the money on a pitcher. This year needs to be spent on Reyes, grooming the young kids, further progressing the kids in the high minors, trying to unload Bay and seeing if Murphy is passable somewhere on the field.
Overspending on CJ Wilson right now is a step backwards for the organization.
If I was GM these are the moves I’d make this off season.
1 – Resign Reyes. 5 years 20 per with a team option or 6 years at 18 with a team option.
It has some risk involved but if you can get 140 games of healthy Reyes on average this is worth it.
2 – Trade for James Shields. I think Murphy is a grate player and a grinder but the Mets need to improve defense and murph would be most valuable to an AL team with 1B open as well. We’d trade Murph, and whoever else we need to fromn our farm system who isn’t Familia, Harvey, Wheeler or Havens.
3 – Offer Pelf arbitration and then trade him to the Rox for Sheets. They’re shopping him for a starter and when Pelf is on his game and getting ground balls he’d be a good fit for the Rox.
4 Sign Matt caps.
This is how the 25 man roster should go.
Starters
Reyes SS – S
Pagan CF – S
Davis 1B – L
Wright 3B – R
Duda RF – L
Bay LF – R
Thole C – L
Tejeda 2B – R
Bench
Turner – Inf
Evans – Inf/OF
Satin – Inf
Harris – OF
Nickeas – C
Rotation
Shields – R
Santan – L
Dickey – R
Niese – L
Gee – R
Pen –
Sheets (closer)
Capps
Parnell
Beato
Byrdak
Acosta
Herrara
This is a very balanced team with a much better bullpen, upgraded roation and would have Havens hopefully read for 2nd soon and Tejada could become the backup middle infielder/ defensive replacment and it would have the big 3 of Harvey, Wheeler and Familia waiting to break into the bigs!
There’s no way the Rays trade Shields unless the Mets give at least two of the prospects you listed. He’s very affordable and productive. Murphy isn’t much of an upgrade over Kotchman.
The Red Sox has little use for Pelf. If Pelf was on this year’s Red Sox rotation he would be their worst or 2nd worst starter. Pelf is worth more to the Mets after this year when he becomes a type B FA.
I had to read it tiwce also, but he said Rox, not Red Sox. I don’t think this would benfit either team, because there are better pitchers than Sheets coming off injuries that would sign for peanuts.
Also, if he’s talking about Ben Sheets, the guy didn’t even pitch in 2011 and isn’t under contract. So I don’t know what he was talking about.
Maybe Street?
First of, thanks for typing all that out and putting some thought into it.
I certainly hope this team can get Reyes cheaper than that. No issues in re-signing him. Wouldn’t mind seeing CJ Wilson signed either, but I know both isn’t happening. I still flip flop as to who will be better for the team, but for this moment, no issues with Reyes. Also, if Shields could be had, he’s a better option than CJ. I am curious what it would take to get Shields. You’re going to have to go big time to get him. Think Murphy + Duda + another for starters.
Now, for Pelf… I’m sure they’ll be a taker for him, and while I think the Sheets is looney, getting a good BP arm would be fine with me for Pelf.
Nickeas isn’t backup quality. Heck, Thole isn’t even really starter quality. I’d want to see something better in a platoon. Also, would like to see a little more pop off the bench, but it’s the bench, so I wouldn’t be overly worried on that.
Not sure if closer is better suited in going after a Nathan and a Broxton. Capps is nice, but not sure what he’s going to cost.
Not bad but I don’t want to see Pagan or Parnell wearing Met uniforms next year.I’d try and sign Coco Crisp for one year.Pretty much the same numbers as Pagan but a much better CF’er and a much more intelligent player.Neither Parnell or Pagan have any mental toughness.Speaking of Mental toughness,I would try and trade Wright be- fore he regressed to a point where he has no more value left.Might as well capitalize on Wrights value now.
“What exactly has C.J. Wilson done in his career that makes a Mets fan covet him in free agency?”
I would ask the same question in regards to MONEYBALL!
What has it ever done to warrant repeating it’s wholesale FAILURE!
Not that I’m all gung Ho on signing CJ, just pointing out that Pitching is a concern, He is an Option, Yes he costs money….SO WHAT?
Are you Jeff Wilpon trying to save as much of his inheritance as possible?
Or do you want to see this team win more games?
VINNY, FOR SOMEONE, I’VE TYPICALLY FOUND TO BE SOMEWHAT REALISTIC & OFTEN ASTUTE, THIS COMMENT TRULY “SHOCKS” ME AS BEING NEITHER;
___________________________________________________________________________________________Vinny B says:
October 5, 2011 at 7:28 pm
I really didn’t like the offseason that much mainly because of the bullpen. I felt it was downgraded from what it was a year before. And there was plenty of arms available that we could have signed.
So, I felt the team was WEAKER than it was the year before – That’s why I didn’t like the offseason – If you looked at the 2010 bullpen and the 2011 bullpen, you would see that the 2010 was MUCH better… I don’t know how having a weaker bullpen is only “minor” thing – A bad bullpen can kill a team, it’s not minor thing, it’s a big deal.
And I don’t buy the argument that the GM is somehow justified by not improving the team because “we had no chance anyway”. The GM should ALWAYS be looking to improve the team, even if your in last place – If you don’t sign a guy that would help you out because you don’t think your team is any good, then you probably shouldn’t be a GM in the 1st place.
___________________________________________________________________________________________AS IT WAS MISSING A ‘REPLY’ BUTTON I NEEDED TO COPY/PASTE TO ENSURE MY RESPONSE IS ASSOCIATED PROPERLY, VINNIE, DO U BELIEVE ALDERSON’S CHOICE WAS TO JETTISON TAKA & PEDRO? SINCE BOTH MADE DEMANDS IN EXCESS OF ALLOCATED BY OWNERSHIP UPGRADE FUNDS, KEEPING EITHER WAS UNTENABLE; WHY IS IT NO ONE SEEMS CAPABLE OF COMPREHENDING HOW MUCH THE WILPONS”(FRED & JEFRF) ARE INVOLVED IN THE FINANCIAL MINISTRIVIA SURROUNDING THIS TEAM AN AREA THAT’S LIKELY TO CONFLICT WITH WHAT’S ATHLETICLY BEST FOR THEIR OVERALL PERFORMANCE. THIS IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON BY ANY MEANS AS FRED’S DUTIES PRE ’02 BUYOUT ENCOMPESSED THOSE OF CFO & AS PURSESTRING HOLDER TO FRANK CASHEN, CERTAINMLY CREATED ATHE ULTIMATE DISMANTLING OF FRANK’S PRIZED ROSTER OF ACHIEVERS.
TO RECLAIM YOUR REP AS REALISTICLY ASTUTE, YOU WOULD NEED TO DETAIL EXACTLY WHICH PLAYERS YOU WOULD HAVE PREFERRED CONSIDERING YOU ONLY HAS APPROXIMATELY $8M ALLOCATED TO SUPPLY 2 SP, 1 C, 2B & AT LEAST 3 BP ARMS. GOOD LUCK, ALDERSON SUPRISED ME WITH THE LITTLE VALUE HE ACTUALLY DID SCRAPE UP FOR PENNIES.
BTW EXCL REYES BE PREPARED FOR FURTHER DISAPPOINTMENT AS AFTER SANTANA,BAY,WRIGHT,DICKEY,CARRASCO, REYES; SANDY STILL NEEDS TO FIELD AN ADDITIONAL 19 PLAYERS FOR A MERE 44-54M MOST LIKELY. THAT LEAVES VERY LITTLE ROOM FOR YOUR ‘GETTING EXCITED, UNLESS U R A VERY,VERY CHEAP & EASY DATE!(LOL)
Those 2 guys were certainly done for baseball reasons too, combined with budget restrictions (as in, they were getting too much money).
I don’t recall what kind of year Taka had, but I know he started poorly. And it was 100% the right call on pedro (worrying about him breaking down).
So very easy to argue that it was the right decision, just the execution (in terms of who replaced them) did not neccesarily work out.
though Byrdak in the LOOGy role was respectable most of the year. DJ though to replace Taka, that was a bomb!
But overall, if those 2 guys had been resigned for multi years, the pen would not have been noticably better 9or different) in 2011.
Hisanori Takahashi – 3.44 ERA, 68 IP, 58 hits, 25 BBS, 52 Ks, 4-3 record, no starts, 2 saves, 1.22 WHIP
He pitched 122 innings for Mets previous season
Takahashi: 4 per year
Chotae: 1.2 million per year
Harang:7 million
Millwood: minor league contract
Blanco: 1 million
That’s 13.2 million…..I think the Mets could have easily afforded that. And it would have been worth it if the mets spent a little more – Look at their numbers:
Taka: 3.44 ERA
Choate: 1.82 ERA
Harang: 14-7 3.64 ERA
Millwood: 4-3 3.98 ERA
Blanco: .250 8HR’s + great defense.
Lets compare that to the Mets signings this year:
DJ Carrsco: 6.03 ERA
Byrdak: 3.82 ERA
Capuano: 11-12 4.55 ERA
Young: 1-0 1.88 ERA
Paulino: .268 2HR, and bad defense
Totals:
My guys: 18-10 316 IP 3.53 ERA
The Mets signings: 12-12 296 IP 4.50 ERA
I only count W-L for the SP’s btw.
“I only count W-L for the SP’s btw”
doesn’t make it a good idea. You also made vague references to “great” and “bad” defense.
And you failed to mention Blanco only had 112 PAs.
what about things like HR/9 or K/BB?
the numbers he put out there are enough to know his guys did better. You know who he’s talking about and you know what all these guys did so that’s all you need to know for this debate.
See here’s the problem with just pciking names out and showing their 2011 totals. A) There’s no way you can KNOW what you will get is there? You’re using hindsight to support your theories.
When Taka’s contract was due with the Mets he told them he wanted to be a starter, remember? So lets just say for arguments sake the Mets signed him under that premise…so now you have Pelf-Niese-Dickey-Taka and “maybe” Johan.
Then you want Aaron Harang? Again ignoring the fact Harang said he wanted to play near his home in San Diego, which agan is on the other side of the country. It’s not like the Mets are such an attractive place to come play that you’d give up your wants.
So okay you wanted Harang, nice. So you sign Harang, now what? No Dillon Gee. Forget about Dillon Gee who I am sure you love right? You sign both Taka and Harang, you don’t lock up a rotation spot with a young arm, you continue to fill it with old players.
Then you wanted Millwood which I don’t even know where you’d put him? The way to sign Taka was to tell him he could start here. Once the Mets said no he took his est offer which was in LAA. But even if you re-neg on your agreement… now you put Millwood in the rotation and again no Dillon Gee.
Would you trade Harang+Taka+Millwood for Cap+Gee? I wouldn’t. But you’re using hindsight so why can’t I?
I AGREE on Choate, I don’t know what he wanted from the Mets. Do we assume every free agents wants to come here? they offered him 1.4mil for 1 year right? And then signed Byrdak to 900k for 1 year because the Marlins guaranteed Choate a 2nd year.
I don’t BLAME the Mets for not guaranteeing a 36 year old LOOGY a 2d year for more money and oh by the way, he is having issues in his lefty throwing elbow.
I’m not sure why Blanco is even in the mix here? Blanco played in 37 games in 2011. He’s 40 years old and signing him is saying we have confidence in Thole as a starter which they don’t. So they signed a guy who COULD be the starter if need be.
I think people don’t give enough credit for the year Capuano had, and forget that adding more SP’s would have eliminated Dillon Gee from the picture in 2011.
It’s not hinsight, I’m saying the same EXACT thing as I said during the offseason. Now I’m just showing how they did.
And I went over some of your points already in my reply to tagee below.
The cause of having to go outside your organization for every need is the same thing that caused Minaya to have to sign Jacobs, Gary Mattews Jr., Frank Catlonotto, Alex Cora, Kelvin Escobar, Valdez, Igarashi and Nieve last year.
How’d they all do?
Blanco had 100 AB’s this year in a very friendly hitting environment. Signing Blanco would have meant more Thole which would have meant more PB’s, more wild pitches, more games with pitchers afraid to bounce one in front of the plate and more of everything else we’ve grown accustomed to with Josh back there.
As a 3rd catcher Blanco would have made a great deal of sense but our roster composition prevented a 3rd catcher due to how one dimensional many of our players are.
You won’t acknowledge that Harang (and his wife) WANTED to play in San Diego. WANTED TO. And probably took less in order to play there. Harang was not in play for us.
Millwood made 9 starts all year, none of them until August. How that would have benefitted us I’m not that sure. I don’t think he would have killed us to sign him to a minor league deal but he certainly would have been one more guy people on this site would have been pointing to as Alderson signing another injured pitcher. Emergency pitching depth if he recovered in time is basically what he was. He ran out of time with both Boston and NYY and was cut by both.
Taka and Choate both got two year deals. Total commitment 10.5 M over two years. Hardly anything for a MLB franchise but with 13 guys to sign and 13 M to do it with 5.25 M on two of them was probably too much considering the economic realities of ownership. We do know that Alderson did make offers to both players, they went elsewhere, that’s the way it goes and just underlines the problems a team encounters when they cannot develop any of their own players for the bullpen.
That’s the illness, not being able to get every free agent you want is just the symptom.
I think the illness is you crying here everyday why everything isn’t solved through the farm in your fantasy world and complaining thinking everybody wants everything cured by free agency.
Why even bother watching major league baseball because you don’t want any players over 29 around here. Go watch the minors you’ll be a much happier person.
Look. I have no problems with you or anyone else playing fantasy baseball every off season. Do what ever you want, but I don’t want my team playing “who can we get” for 13 spots on the 40 man roster every year.
That’s what has led this team to have 12 losing seasons in the last 21 years. Maybe your happy with that. Most of us aren’t.
Not to say that it’s impossible to hit it right with every guy that you can sign in a particular year, just that it’s unlikely you’ll get them all right and downright impossible to get them all right EVERY year. Especially when the cash has dried up. We couldn’t even get the pen right every year when money was no object. Sosa, Sele, Schowenweiss, Mota, Ayala. Now that the cash is stretched that only makes the chances of hitting it right that much more difficult.
Yeah but Paulino wasn’t good behind the plate either – Blanco didn’t play that much in AZ because they have a very good catcher in Montero -Blanco probably would have played more if he stayed here.
Blanco’s value to the team isn’t his offense, it’s his defense. And as I said last night I think losing him (and Barajas) was part of the reason why the Mets pitching staff took a step back this year.
Millwood was a depth move……just incase of of our guys got hurt, we’d have a veteran SP to back them up.
We only offered Choate one year…..we should have offered him two. And if Taka didn’t want to come here, then Fuentes would have been the fallback plan.
My point is with Harang, is that he signed for so little, that we could have blown him away with still reasonable money. If we did offer him double(7 million) maybe he comes here maybe, he doesn’t I don’t know – There was still some other guys that I liked like Vazquez, Penny(the only guy I was wrong about), Correia, and if the Mets were going to sign an injury prone lefty, I would have rather them have signed Bedard instead of Capauno.
Harang went home. That is why he signed for under market value. Why are you not accepting the words of the man himself?
Because I think if we offered him a lot more than what he signed for, he MIGHT have done it. Maybe the offers he got from other teams weren’t that much higher than the one from SD? I don’t know, and you don’t know either.
And if he didn’t come here, there was still other guys I would have liked better. Here’s how I ranked them:
Harang
Vazquez
Correia
Penny
Young
Bedard
Capuano
Millwood(remember, he was just for depth)
Blanco’s value to any team is his defense. Perhaps inserting him every 7th inning would have worked out well but it’s obvious that finding someone who could hit LHP to match up with Thole (who can’t) was a priority. Offense was the aspect of the game we were most deficent at in 2010 so maybe that’s why they went that way.
Rarely are you going to find guys proficient at all aspects of the game on the non type A and type B free agent lists. That’s a good reason not to have so many from there every year.
How could Millwood have been AAA depth? He didn’t even make it onto the field until mid August. At the most you can could say he could have been a no harm signing, but hardly something to gripe about.
Fuentes a back up plan? At 10.5 M for two years? Now I know your kidding us. At some point you simply have to take the economic realities into consideration. Alderson committed 13 M to 13 guys. You wanted us to pay extra to Harang who got 4.3 M (say 5.5 M) and sign Fuentes for the same. That’s 11 M on just two guys.
It’s hard to disagree on Choate and I know you were high on him in the off season but your just not going to get every guy you want, every off season, especially when you have so many spots on the 40 to fill.
Fuentes is a good pitcher – In 2010 he had a 2.82 ERA, and has been very consistent in his entire career – I always liked him too, I said he should have signed him when he was a FA a few years back – He only would have cost about 1 million per year more than Taka – when I added up the money for the guysI wanted, it came out to about 13.2 million…..so with Fuentes it would be about 14.2 million – We couldn’t afford that?
And don’t forget that Capunao went up to four million…..so 14.2 million wouldn’t cost that much more money that what we really spent anyway.
Millwood didn’t make the MAJOR LEAGUE field untill August – he started 16 games in the minors. Think of him like Miguel Batista(but I think Millwood is better). He’s just for depth.
Like I said Millwood would have been a no harm kind of signing. As it turns out we didn’t need him until he would have been ready anyway but we really didn’t need him before either and I really don’t think he would have been better than Gee was for us in the first half even if he was healthy so as it turns out we would have been worse.
Regardless, lack of available starting pitching didn’t sink us and maybe even helped us with Gee making so many starts and Schwinden getting his feet wet. Either way not signing Millwood didn’t cause us to miss out on the post season.
As for Taka we didn’t sign him because he wanted a two year deal, so we certainly weren’t going to give a 2 year deal to someone who got 1.5 M more.
As for Capuano (and Young) it’s not about what they earned in incentives, it’s about what the team was contractually committed to when the contract was signed.
That’s the most glaring look in at the Wilpon’s financial situation. Where at one time money was no object, just get the guy and give him a vesting option, no trade, promise to not offer arb, anything. Now it’s we can commit to a certain amount, if he does better theoretically so will attendance and we’ll gladly pay for that and hopefully most will and the combined effect will make it really pay off.
The flip side to that is Chris Young. He went down right away. If he wasn’t on an incentive laden deal he would have sunk the payroll.
Like it or not this is the new reality here and the type of player you can get under that arrangement is not of the same quality as the guy who gets a fully guaranteed deal.
That’s where we are. Players who have options want things like guaranteed deals, multi year contracts, playing near home (which for a lot of guys means California, the south East and Texas, not Queens) and most importantly a good chance of making the post season. These were all things that we couldn’t offer this year and they are all things that we probably won’t be able to offer next off season and the one after after that as well.
Hate to break the news but players weren’t exactly tripping over themselves to come here when the money was flowing. Beltran would have taken 20 M less to play in the same city. Delgado did sign elsewhere, so did Zito. Bay hemmed and hawed as well. K-Rod was really the only guy who jumped at the chance. Maybe Pedro too although I wouldn’t say jumped in his case, perhaps Wagner as well but even with huge money being offered plenty of guys looked elsewhere first and then signed, so without the big money and without being favorites in our own division it’s only going to be that much more the case.
Plus with all the money we have parked on the DL over the last 5 years how could you even blame the owners to some extent. I mean think about the return on investment here. You think we’re sick to our stomaches? Pedro 4/54 M, got one and a half years. Alou 2/15M got 100 games. Beltran returned more than equal value but even he lost one of his 7 years and that affected attendance over two separate seasons. Delgado lost almost a whole year and had two, for him, mediocre seasons. Wagner 4/44 two and a half years, Schowenweiss 3/10 M, Perez 3/36 M, Bay 4/66 M, Castillo 4/25 M.
Even when they made money off those big money deals they lost it on the Ponzi scheme and immediately thereafter attendance tanked. Right away. Just as the stadium bonds had to be paid. Right when their principle business started tanking. Right after they were threatend with a billion dollar lawsuit which happened right after they lost 500-700 M they thought they had.
After 25 years of just throwing money at every need and essentially getting no return on it they simply don’t have the money to prop up the team anymore. The team has to start breaking even at least on it’s own and that hasn’t even started to happen. Not even close.
What money is available is going to have to be spent propping up the guys who’ll be here in 2014 which is what should have been done along. If it had been we wouldn’t have the need to sign 13 guys off the scrap heap every year.
They won’t come out and say it because that would make things even worse, but they are saying it with their actions. People just don’t want to believe what their eyes are telling them.
Like it or not 2012 and 2013 are going to be similar. 2014 should be the start of a year similar to 1984 and kick of some purely good baseball signings but even that won’t happen unless this new administration can produce talent equal or above to what we already have.
Few business could survive the confluence of events that hit the Wilpon’s without lessening overhead in any industry, let alone a business that has such volatility between performance and pay as the baseball business.
It’s like the real estate market right now. All you can do is ride out the storm and try to keep your head above water.
Holy Christ
That is the 1st accurate statement you’ve said on MMO in a long time Bayonne
And our team has THREE General Managers too and when you think about it that’s pretty rough. All THREE putting their heads together should have had a MUCH better offseason than what we had.