25
2011
Kicking The Tires On Roy Oswalt and Brad Lidge
An article by Craig Lerner
On Monday, the Phillies officially declined the 2012 options for starter Roy Oswalt and reliever Brad Lidge. Neither player are totally out of the picture yet as GM Ruben Amaro did say he would keep in tough with agents for both players and one or both could be brought back next season at a much reduced price.
Oswalt was set to earn $16MM and was bought out for $2MM, while Lidge received a $1.5MM buyout instead of a $12.5MM payday.
Todd Zolecki of MLB.com posted these capsules for each new free agent:
Lidge, 34, went 0-2 with one save and a 1.40 ERA in 25 appearances this season. He struck out 23 batters in 19.1 innings, an average of 10.7 strikeouts per 9.0 innings pitched. In four seasons (2008-11) with Philadelphia, Lidge posted a 3-11 record with 100 saves and a 3.73 ERA. In 22 postseason appearances, he went 1-1 with 12 saves in 12 opportunities and a 1.77 ERA.
Oswalt, also 34, went 9-10 with a 3.69 ERA in 23 starts for the Phillies this past season. In 36 regular season games (35 starts) since being acquired from the Houston Astros on July 29, 2010, he was 16-11 with a 2.96 ERA.
I think both players could be intriguing for the Mets depending on how things shake out with the Jose Reyes negotiations.
Lidge would fill the most immediate need and pitched effectively after returning from rotator cuff surgery. His strikeout rate of 10.7 jumps out at me, but my excitement is somewhat tempered by a high walk rate leading to a 1.50 WHIP. That said, if we were able to get him on an incentive based one year deal with a $3 million dollar base, there’s still plenty of potential and gas left in his tank to make this a no-brainer for the Mets.
Lidge would obviously take over as closer and be a calming veteran presence for youngsters Bobby Parnell and Pedro Beato – similar to the role Jason Isringhausen played last season. Of course there would be concerns about that right shoulder, but if it gives out you didn’t risk much. Of course if he reverts back to the dominant force he was before injuries took it’s toll, Lidge could give the Mets a solid end game solution for the entire season.
As for Oswalt, I always liked him and was kind of bummed when the Phillies acquired him from their exclusive pipeline to the Houston Astros.
Yes, he missed some time with a back injury in 2011, but he did finish strong – making his last eleven starts in a row while posting a 3.59 ERA. That is just a notch higher than his 3.21 career ERA and remember he pitched half his starts in Citizens Ban Patio.
Before last season, Oswalt pitched 180 or more inning for nine consecutive seasons. He has finished in the the Top 10 of Cy Young voting six times in eleven seasons, and also has the third highest winning percentage among all active pitchers with 200 or more games started, posting a .631 Win% (159-93).
Oswalt won’t come as cheap as Lidge, but he won’t get a boatload of cash either as many teams may be scared off by his back injury or his Type A free agent status. The Mets first round pick is protected anyway, but taking a shot on Oswalt and then dangling him at the trade deadline to a contender ala Carlos Beltran, or getting draft picks back at the end of his contract would be another benefit.
It’s certainly something to think about.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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ok, lidge might come cheap and could be an option, no to oswalt, i have a feeling he’ll want at least a multi year deal or maybe pitch in texas as he resides in houston still.. also, even though our first rounder is protected, if we sign a type A free agent we will give up our second rounder, i said this about a week ago or so:
“If a team signs a Type A free agent, they have to surrender a draft pick to that player’s former team. If the signing team placed in the bottom half of MLB teams, their first round draft pick is protected and they surrender a second round pick instead”
I agree about Oswalt. If he is going to sign a reasonable (or budget) deal, it will be in Philly or texas. he is looking for a multi year deal at serious money to go elsewhere (though he did say he would play for any team, so yes, it is all about the benjamins).
But, there is a decent chance Philly does not offer him arbitration, because he quite possibly takes it, and they end up paying more than if they had just taken the option.
Lidge? Now he could be interesting. Won’t be a type A, so no worries there (at least, i can’t imagine he would be). On a Young-type deal (low base, incentives based on appearances) it could work out for both sides, since it gives him a chance to close. I just have no confidence he will hold up physicially (hence the need for an incentive based deal).
Lidge though seems to want to go back to Philly, so again, you probably have to give him a hefty deal to woo him away. On the cheap, the phillies will take him back.
I don’t think Oswalt would come here only because we’re not close to contending.He’s going to want to play for a contending team at this stage of his career.
I would try and sign Lidge but I wouldn’t stop there.I would look to sign Joe Nathan as well and have Lidge setup which he said he’d have no problem with and have Nathan close.Nathan is now 2 years removed from surgery and will probably have a nice bounceback season to prove he’s still a big bucks closer.I’m not sure lidge can hold up a full year physically as a closer.
My only concern would be with the Mets luck they would both get hurt and we’ll end up having the same end of game results as this year.
Good post. Agreed, he’s looking for a ring at this point.
I think fans would have an easier time accepting signing Oswalt and giving up a 2nd rounder than signing CJ Wilson and doing the same to be honest.
I’m not sure, I kinda just feel like Oswalt will restructure. He has to know despite the 2011 playoff outcome his best chance to win is in Philly. Lidge I’d say is gone.
well, if texas wins the WS and they go after him, wouldn’t you say that he has a better chance to win in texas??
you could argue either way, but I give the nod to Texas right now. Though that could be my distaste of Philly showing through…
seriously though, texas has a better balanced team right now. Philly is using the rotation to mask a lot of issues, so if they can’t pull off having their top 3 all have huge years (and pitch a combined ~700 innings) again in 2012, things could unravel fast.
It depends actually on a few things
For example
If the new CBA includes a Best of 7 LDS, and an extra wildcard game then no I think Philly still goes into 2012 as the favorite solely based on Halladay-Lee-Oswalt-Hamels-Worley.
A 7 game series the entire way through strongly favors a team like Philly.
Plus, you’d have to figure out what happens with Wilson first most likely because as sad as it is, he sets the market. So if Texas can sign their own guy who’s price has probably dropped thanks to this october…. they may not have a spot for a guy like Oswalt.
Also do no forget when Oswalt was trade bait, it was “reported” he didn’t want to go to the AL. So, if he has his CHOICE of where to go… why would that change?
I could see Oswalt and Texas as a marraige made in heaven.That’s just the type of atmosphere that Oswalt loves,laid back and no annoying big market media.
The least thing they should concern themselves with in this case is giving up a 2nd rounder.
Just get the best pitcher they could and if they could sign him and it makes this team better now and could care less what round pick i give up.
bayonne, not gonna happen with this front office. plus, the fans here in this blog concerns themselves more with not giving up round picks, that is why i make sure that everytime they write an article suggesting to sign player X, i automatically ask if we’re giving up a draft pick… what’s amazing is that with the history of BUST depodesta has drafted, most ppl here suggest we keep getting picks for what is worth.. just laughable.
Same thing, different day. Are you a member of the front office? You sure do second guess them before they even make a move. Assume much?
paul depodesta draft picks who NEVER even sniffed the majors:
*Justin Orenduff, Blake Johnson, Cory Dunlap, Anthony Raglani, Daniel Batz, B.J. Richmond, Carlos Medero-Stullz, David Nicholson, Chris Westervelt, Sam Steidl, Brian Akin, Chase Dardar, Daniel Forrer, Luke Hochevar, *Ivan DeJesus, Josh Wall, Sergio Pedroza, Christopher Hobdy, David Horlacher, Michael Davitt, Adam Godwin.. etc… and those are only up until round 10 of the 2004 & 2005 draft picks HE MADE… ALL OF THEM BUST!!!!!
is not second guessing if BEFORE it happens you already know it won’t work, so the nimmo lovers beware, depodesta’s greatest accomplishment as a scout evaluator has been BLAKE DEWITT, YIKES!!!
Luke Hochevar went 11-11 with a 4.68 ERA for the KC royals and has started 96 games in the big leagues. You need to update your “I hate Paul D list”
Depodesta is not the one drafting Alex.He’s in charge of scouting and player developement but he’s not the one drafting.Just like Omar was not the one drafting.
Why on earth would you give up a 2nd rounder for an ailing pitcher near the end of the line in Oswalt.Maybe you get a decent year out of him but not worth giving up a 2nd rounder for maybe a decent season on a team going nowhere next year unless a half million ifs become a reality.If we’re one pitcher away from being a WS contender then yeah you take a shot,we’re not that team yet.
You guys dismiss draft picks like they cause cancer.Take a look at how many stars have come out of the 2nd round in the last decade alone.
Take
I’ve read tumors that Oswalt will most likely get a 2-year deal. That wouldn’t stop me because I dont think he’s as much of a risk as people think and because of his easy motion he’s never had an arm problem. Texas is hell bent on Darvish or Sabathia if he opts out. Not sure they will go after Oswalt. Oswalt is 34 and may not have the luxury of picking and choosing his ideal spot. 2/$16MM is what I see him getting and he may not land on a contender.
I would stay away from Lidge, and try to sign a bunch of good arms rather than sign a true closer. There’s a good chance we get lucky and a closer will emerge even if it’s by committee.
There’s a good chance we get lucky and a closer will emerge even if it’s by committee”
after we traded our all star closer we tried that, and it backfire on us BIG TIME as we blew 13 leads/lost GAMES in which our closers by committed failed. get a closer and a set up guy, isn’t that why sandy gave krod away for free?? to save 17.5 million dollars? or that money goes to the wilpons fundS!?
hence the point about getting a bunch of good arms, and letting them fight for the job, with the goal that someone actually earns the job. Worked OK for the Cards this year.
worked for the cards, you said it, we tried the same method and it didn’t work for us… aren’t most of you clammoring for CHANGES? well, if it didn’t work the first time, why tried it again??? …. ohhhh, that’s right, our owners are broke and our GM thinks small market.. got it.
“if it didn’t work the first time, why tried it again”
If the parts are substandard, you don’t blame the design. Get 3 or 4 quality arms in the pen and let them figure it out
Parnell, Beato, Mejia and maybe some cheap free agent. If we can’t get 1 decent pitcher out of that, then we have far bigger problems than who gets the nifty theme music when he pitches.
mejia won’t be back midway into the season, long shot
parnell sucks
beato showed flashes, not ready yet.
that leaves one more spot right? a cheap free agent who most likely will bomb and leaves us in the same situation if not worst thant we were last year.. great plan donal…
As opposed to a 34 year old with a surgically repaired elbow? Ya, that isn’t a gamble.
I’d rather role the dice with players that can be moved on easier if they don’t work out. Like I said, if we can’t find 3 or 4 decent guys, our problems are much bigger than over valued hype pitcher.
We blew 17 leads after the 6th inning before K-Rod was traded.The entire bullpen and defense melted down in those games.What difference would K-Rod have made if you can’t get him the ball.
It’s the same ole topic every single day here.Try looking ahead for once.2006 was many moons ago.Not that I’m suggesting a close by committee again but even though I despise the Wilpons,I can’t blame them for not wanting to pay a highwire act closer 17.5 million.He’s not Mariano.
Maybe if Collins did a better job using him the 55 games finished wouldn’t have been an issue.How many damn games did Collins bring him in trailing big in the 8th or 9th to get the last out and get credited with a game finished in a onesided loss.How many times did he bring in K-Rod in a non-save situation,5-1 7-2 scores.If Collins used hm correctly that ridiculous option that Omar gave him would’ve never been an issue.
Yes we did and the GMs solution was to get rid of the guy who wasn’t blowing them and kept the guys who did!
his physical issue is his back. There was a piece in the philly paper today (of course, with agent spin) that his back seems fine now and he wants to keep going for a few more years. Something about finally getting toa doctor that could help, and give him a real plan to manage the issue.
But certainly, any guy with a degenerative back issue 9disks I think) is going to be a grenade with the pin out!
I have 5 bad discs and I can’t even swing a bat well enough to play soft ball let alone a guy pitching in the bigs.
Are you sure he has 9 bad discs? If that’s true I don’t know how he could even step on a major league field.That sounds a bit much for a guy still throwing 94mph.
Both of these guys are ready to break into a thousand pieces. Add the fact that Lidge is a head case. No thank you.
Aren’t most relievers head cases?
I’d take Lidge in a set up role.He’d be motivated to prove he can close.I’d also sign Nathan who’s option was declined by the Twinkies today.
Personally I don’t see eithetr leaving Philly unless Philly refuses to sign them at all!
I expect Oswalt to return to them only at a reduced rate than current!
The guy wants to win I’m sure money is important but the Ring is worth the 4 or 5 mil he will give up!
Question is will they get one?
They will if they go after Reyes!
Because Reyes has proven to be the missing piece of a championship team before?
They lost because Howard, Ruiz, Pence did very poorly and because Cliff Lee and Oswalt had very lackluster performances.
The Phils can easily win it all with Rollins on a short-term deal. By the way Rollins had an excellent LDS. I’m not sure how much better Reyes could have done than 9/20 with 4 doubles, 13 total bases, .450 avg, .476 obp, .650 slg and 6 runs scored.
Having Reyes doesn’t make Howard, Pence, Ruiz hit in October and doesn’t fix cliff Lee and Oswalt’s 7+ 2011 LDS era.
No because he’s a MUCH BETTER hitter and fielder than Rollins!
Rollins has NO SHOT at the HOF! Reyes if he continues down the performance track he has had just might be!
Um okay.
First of all. The Phils didn’t lose the LDS because of Jimmy Rollins. So saying they’d win with Reyes doesn’t really make sense to me. It wouldn’t matter if the Phils won more regular season games would it? they were #1 seed. So can you tell me without any doubt that Reyes would hit better than Rollins did in LDS? There’s no possible way you can. So saying they get a ring with Reyes over Rollins and nothing else being done is an argument you A) Can’t prove and B) Doesn’t have logical evidence to even make that guess.
Second of all. Hall of Fame? Really? That’s how far we’re going now?
Jose Reyes has 1,300 hits. He ain’t getting into the Hall without 3,000… so how’s he getting there? I mean lets hold off on the HOF stuff, that is a little overboard no?
To get to 3,000 hits you have to guarantee me Reyes can average about 170 hits a season for the next 10 years. Can you guarantee me he’ll play 150+ games a year? If not, how’s he getting there?
I mean really take it easy with Hall of Fame stuff. After 9 seasons, Rollins had 161 more hits, 107 more runs scored, 75 less steals, 2 more Gold Glvoes, and 1 MVP and nobody would have dared suggest he was on a path to the Hall of Fame would they?
and the bashing of reyes continues.. isn’t he your favorite player? why don’t you for once act a little positive and wish for him to be healthy and continue the production he has this year as a met for years to come?? i mean, if he does do it, he’d be the first offensive met to be inducted into the hall of fame, wouldn’t you be proud of that? or he isn’t too gritty enough for your taste??
Saying a guy is not presently on a Hall of Fame pace is not bashing him.
Saying a guy is a stat padder, selfish, choke artist, POS, worthless etc etc
That is bashing
at least i’d say positive things about wright, and i don’t pretend he’s my FAVORITE PLAYER, he’s not, i don’t front, i praise the guy we had from 2005-2007, the guys we had in the playoffs of 2006 and from 2008 and on is the guy i bash because mets fans peg him as a god send who does no wrong..
No one does that. at all.
And again, saying a guy is not on a Hall of Fame pace is not bashing him.
I have yet to hear of even a single Met Fan ever who pegs David Wright as a “Godsend who does no wrong.”
I never heard anyone say this in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 or 2011.
Maybe all those people just live on your block.
Nothing in that post suggest a bashing of Reyes. Read it again.
How is it bashing Reyes to point out that no one knows how he would have hit for the Phillies in the LDS?
For that matter how it is bashing Reyes to point out what he would probably have to do to make the HOF?
How many SS’s in the entire history of MLB have even made the HOF anyway? About five.
Is it bashing Keith Hernandez to say that he shouldn’t make the Hall?
Reyes would need a bare minimum of three more years like 2011 and a long subtle decline to merit HOF consideration and while I think his decline will be a long and gradual one, I don’t foresee him having three more years as dominant as 2011 but I will be rooting for him.
I love Reyes myself. Reyes and Edgardo Alfonzo are the absolute best players we’ve produced in 25 years. Hope he does make the Hall and I hope we resign him. If we do I’ll guarantee his #7 goes on the fence but as for the HOF I really don’t see it.
Is it admiration when you say those things about Reyes?
Or DISDAIN?
(I know YOU didn’t say it tag but if someone said Seaver wasn’t hall worthy would you consider it a complement or a dig?)
Name the best SSs to ever play the game!
If Reyes isn’t on that list then you would have to be called BIASED against Reyes!
Cause other than Ozzy Smith and Jeter no SS has had the offensive impact AND the fielding ability of Reyes!
NO ONE!
Compare his numbers to Rizzuto who is in…
How would you argue for Rizzuto and not Reyes?
What would be the deciding factor? He played with great baseball players and Reyes did not?
Wouldn’t that be even MORE evidence that the reason we HAVE NOT WON with Reyes is becauase he didn’t have all those HOF guys around him?
Well Metsie, as you can see from what I wrote SS is a vastly under represented position in the HOF. Now before you go killing me about this let me state that I in no way had or have anything to do with that. It’s a situation that I am simply pointing out the reality of, not condoning in anyway shape or form.
I cannot comment on Rizzuto because I never saw him play. I do know that he was selected about 25 years after he retired and I’ve read that it was because Pee Wee Reece finally made it that helped Rizzuto to get in. I also have heard he was kept out because of his big mouth and I in fact have a relative who grew up with him and couldn’t stand him so who’s to say what the deal is, all I know is I can’t comment because I never saw him play.
Ozzie was the best I ever saw followed by Yount then Jeter, Vizquel, Reyes and Tulo and I’ve slanted that more toward the older player since the younger one has more room to grow. In a different era I thought Apparchio and Belanger were great and I only saw Ernie Banks play 1B so I cannot comment on him. Ripken, to me doesn’t come close to deserving the Hall.
I may have left someone out that I forgot about but what I think isn’t what the topic was about. I don’t have anything to do with players being selected. If I did Gil would be in and Ripken out.
I think that SS is woefully under represented and I do think that will hurt Reyes chances quite a bit unless he were to get 3,000 hits. Sorry, that’s how I feel based on the history of the HOF.
I’ve always heard that it’s about being THE dominant player at your position during the era in which you played that is the critera for selection and I would say that Reyes has not been THE dominant SS SO FAR during his career. I would say that Jeter has and that Reyes has been in that 2nd group along with Rollins, Tulo, Furcal, Miguel Tejada and Hansley Ramirez and don’t go looking at selected years if your going to compare these guys. Look at their entire career to date and tell me where you think they all stack up.
Reyes is a special player, no question about it. (more bashing of Reyes) but he is not in a league of his own and I think that’s the difference.
Exactly which is why a guy like Reyes will get in!
Only thing that would stop him is a career ending injury and even then he would get some votes for induction!
did you actually read his post? Or do you think the BBWAA will suddenly become all about changing their ways and elect Reyes?
Donal, Go play with your fellow kindergarten crew. None of your posts have anything usefull in them and the ADULTS are trying to talk here! Go play with your GI Joe’s or something.
Jessup – NO I would not say Rollins was heading to the HOF but then again I don’t think Rollins is all that good anyway! He certainly is not the dynamic player Reyes is!
He was their Leader…You don’t make the Hll of LEADERSHIP! You make it on performance!
Des – Yes it took him quite awhile because he really wasn’t considered a GREAT SS just a guy who played on a GREAT team.
That said it doesn’t really matter when you get inducted once your in your in!
I think Reyes will continue what he has done and make the Hall before 25 years passes. Will he be a first year inductee? Maybe not! But he will get in if he just continues on his current trend!
WHich is a LOT more realistic of a thought than Jessups’ NO WAY is he HOF or that he has to hit 3000 hits before he can!
Ozzie Smith only had 2460 and he’s in!
I know I’ll regret this, but Metsie would you have honestly suggested that after Rollins’ MVP season he was on a path to the HOF? I highly doubt that.
“I cannot comment on Rizzuto because I never saw him play. I do know that he was selected about 25 years after he retired and I’ve read that it was because Pee Wee Reece finally made it that helped Rizzuto to get in. I also have heard he was kept out because of his big mouth and I in fact have a relative who grew up with him and couldn’t stand him so who’s to say what the deal is, all I know is I can’t comment because I never saw him play.”
I saw Rizzuto a lot. He was very small but quick (as opposed to fast). He had the quickest release after catching a grounder of any player I’ve ever seen. But he needed it because his arm was average at best. He had a great year in 1950 when he was the MVP in the American League. He was a terrific bunter.
I was a Dodgers fan so I hated Phil when he played for the Yankees. But I grew very fond of his repartee with Bill White in the broadcast booth. He was a simple, unassuming man. I’ve missed him.
As for Seaver it really is clear that he’s a HOFer. Just look at how many years of pure every 5th day domination he delivered. If you were going to pick out 5 starting pitchers from his era who would you choose?
Seaver, Gibson, Palmer, Carlton, McDowell. I’m sure I’m forgetting some guys but you get the idea. Seaver’s in there, no question. One of the five top spots in the rotation.
By now through 2011, 8 1/2 years in Reyes is lumped up in that 2nd tier behind the clear #1 (Jeter), not to mention the guy who would have been the clear #1 who moved to 3B, with about 5 or 6 of his contemporaries (to varying degrees)
Having both an extended plateau and a long, smooth, gradual decline (and remaining healthy) could move him to 2nd behind Jeter at very best IMO and that is less than 50/50 of getting in. Being 2nd in your era at an underrepresented position to begin with.
A lot will be based on how well Hansley or Tulo do going forward as well. What happens for instance if Miami’s new stadium is a HR haven? Hansley hits 40+ a year for 5 straight years, then 30+ for 3 more. Who’s era is the 2nd half of Reyes Career going to belong to? The first belonged to Jeter, so where does that leave Reyes? Second best in both halves of his career.
Again his only real chance is to have that wide plateau and gradual decline and have no one else muddying up his qualifications as best SS 2012-2020.
what if reyes then he avgs 5+ hr’s and 15+ triples for the next 6 years while avg 185 hits per seaosn and his over 300 EVERY YEAR while stealing 35+ bases?? and he helps the mets win a WS? what would be your view of him..?
Terrific player, still not HoF. Besides, what are the odds he can do that?
I’d say he’s getting damn close with those years. Unstood putting up those 3B would accompany about 30 2B’s as well and yeah. I think he could go either way. Just make/just miss. Real close. Add in a monster year there and he goes right in because he would be the dominant SS of the 2nd half of his career (unless someone went haywire)
185 a year though for 6 consecutive years would require no downtime and that’s not a very likely scenario and that not bashing Reyes either to say that. Even his most optimistic supporters would have to say there would be at least one 3-4 week stint on the DL over the next six years and probably two or three.
To me that’s not a knock on him. It’s what he gives you in the 140-150 games he does play that makes him so valuable but the type of injury that he is suseptible to can’t really even be given a firm timetable and can easily result in set backs so an average of 185 over 6 would probably require an on pace of 220.
If you were going to book that bet you’d have to go like 175-1 realistically.
And look at the everyday domination Reyes provided on the Met scoreboard!
Whats out record with and without Reyes?
“Cause other than Ozzy Smith and Jeter no SS has had the offensive impact AND the fielding ability of Reyes!”
Uh, Cal Ripken Jr? Ernie Banks? Pee Wee Reese? Honus Wagner? Robin Yount, Aparicio?
Reyes has never even won a Gold Glove so how can you quantify his “fielding ability” being HOF worthy?
Ripken, Banks, Yount, Aparicio all have won GG’s by the way
Yount is the guy who has best combined outstanding offense and defense. The current SS that most remind you of him is Tulo and we’ll never probably see it but Hansley could be there too. Ozzi grew into his offense later, Banks I believe was a more offensive SS, not considered a great glove. Reece good field/good hit not great at either. Honus I have no idea about the glove/great hitter, obviously. Apparccio/Vizquel just unparalled defense (wish Ordonez lasted another 10 years he could easily have been in that category)
Whose mixing ages now?
Name one from the last 10 years better than reyes!
So now because I don’t think Jose Reyes is on a HOF pace that = me bashing him?
If he has a 2011 season year after year he won’t get 3,000 hits until he’s like 37 years old. Are you telling me you really think 2011 will happen until 2020?
Comparing Jose Reyes through 9 years to Jimmy Rollins through 9 years is not an insult to Reyes. Neither were on a path to the HOF though.
What do you call it pumping him up?
You don’t think that because what you want to see happen only happens if you diminish the worth of Reyes so you get your way!
If you say Reyes IS HOF capable and on the way you lose the battle to get rid of him which is what you been post politiking for since early 2011!
“The Phils didn’t lose the LDS because of Jimmy Rollins”
Oh and the Mets lose BECAUSE of Reyes?
Something about didn’t win with him so send him away!
And Reyes is BETTER than Rollins regardless of who was at fault for their LDS loss a better player than one you have IMPROVES your team!
And likely improves it enough to advance!
Well you don’t have any proof that Reyes could perform at a high level in a playoff series because well, he never has. He’s never come close to having as successful as a post-season as Rollins had in 2011, so saying if the Phils replaced Rollins with Reyes they would have won is a)unproveable and b) unjustified
No we just have proof he plays at a high level PERIOD, Playoff or not!
And so you’re saying we don’t have proof that Rollins does?
You’re saying the 2011 Phils win a ring by just adding Reyes. When the 2011 Phils won enough games to be the #1 seed in the entire playoffs and lost the LDS with their SS hitting .450.
How much higher of a level can you assure me Reyes would have performed that would have eliminated Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt, and Ryan Howards poor performances?
If you don’t want to get called out for saying ridiculous things, then please refrain from saying them.
He doesn’t when compared to Reyes…
Show the numbers if you disagree!
Everytime you get a chance to bash reyes you do, metsie makes a comment about reyes having HOF potential if he continues to play the way he did in 2011 and you all 3 jump the gun and try to diminish reyes capability, then start comparing reyes with rollins, which is ABSURD at this point, reyes has 2x the talent rollins had and metsie is not doing anything to wish reyes HEALTHYness for years to come, whatever happen to LIVE AND LET LIVE HUH???
where does metsie reyes is going to be a HOF?? you 3 make me sick with the bashing of reyes, specially jesseP who somehow claims reyes is his fav player.. LIVE AND LET LIVE RIGHT AGGEEe?
Because Metsie saying Reyes is on a Hall of Fame pace is factually wrong. jessep did the math for him.
It’s not bashing a guy to say he is not on a HOF pace. No one diminished his capabilities, but we put his actually production in perspective.
I love how this “live and let live” stuff comes out when the position you are supporting is being questioned, but when posters you disagree with are attacked, you couldn’t care less and in fact join in.
Jessup did no math whatsoever Cheerleader!
Rizzutto is in the Hall…
WHo is the better SS him or Reyes?
Your comparing 2 entirely different eras. The shorstop of the past 20 years compared to the ss of the 50′s are vastly different offensive players.
No I’m comparing SSs period!
HOF is meant to induct players who were the best for their time.
Name the better than Reyes SSs to prove he is not on that track…
Jeter and who else?
I don’t like having to name players better than Mets players. If you think that Reyes coming into 2011 was on pace for the H.O.F. I just don’t agree. Reyes has had some great years. The competition at SS is rough. You have Reyes fighting with the Tulowitzki’s, Ramirez’s along with players like Rollins.
Can he make the H.O.F.? Yes, I can’t say he can’t. Maybe in 10 years we will look back in amazement at how Reyes has done but right now I’d have to say I don’t see Reyes as a H.O.F. SS rather I see him more of a great SS.
Hall of fame talent,yes but he hasn’t put up HOF numbers to this point.He has to stay healthy and have a lot of years like 2006,2008 and 2011.5-6 more years on that level,a couple of GG and maybe an MVP and he’ll have a good shot.
That’s not bashing at all to say he’s not a HOFer just yet and maybe not at all.I don’t see what the big deal is in saying that.It’s just an opinion.I still think Alfonzo was the best all around player to come out of the system.If only he didn’t mess up his back.
reyes is a hell of a player,why do so many just harp on his negatives? he is a met,the best we have right now, why don’t you so called fans show him support instead of blowing shorstops on other teams.all you want to do is get rid of him for some delusional crapshoot known as prospects.
Are you saying Reyes is on a HoF pace?
YES!!
are you saying he is not?
Is this where you call us both clueless because you have no proof to say he is NOT on a HOF pace?
I’m saying he’s not. What would nice is if you proved he was.
So far, after 9 seasons and at 28 years of age, he has 1300 hits, less than half that magic number. And that’s the closest he is to any of the magic numbers.Forget 2011, he’ll have to replicate 2008 at least half a dozen times to have a hope of the HoF.
You really think he’ll do that?
as a METS FAN, YES, i believe in my players, even though david wright is a BIG TIME CHOKER, and me personally, don’t care much for him, i’d never root for him to fail, shoot, i want him in every oportunity for years to come to shut me up along wit EVERYONE ELSE, unlike you fo-ols who are a bunch of pessimist just thinking negatives stuff towards the best player in our roster
Yes, you believe in your players, even the one you attack and claim is a choker.
I can’t believe I have to point out why that doesn’t work.
And saying Reyes is not on HoF pace is not being negative towards him. It is stating a documented fact.
So then Alex, you feel David Wright is on a path towards the Hall of Fame?
Reyes choked every bit as much as Wright.He had an immortal 3/4 of a season in 2011 and even then he struggled in the clutch the 1st 2 months. 2 for 29 with RISP isn’t exactly money.Both players choked down the stretch in 07 and 08 but at least Wright put up big numbers in Sept,Reyes was totally awful.How does any Met fan think only Wright was a choke artist.Beltran was the only one to pull his weight,the whole team choked.Unreal!
I think it’s ridiculous for anyone to blame just one player for the loss of a post season berth. Even with Glavine in 2007 it shouldn’t have come down to just one game.
In 2008 we had 33 blown saves and that’s with a kick *** offense scoring a lot of runs. In fact 2008 was the 6th most runs we’ve ever scored, 2007 was the 5th most all time. Clearly the problem was more one of pitching than offense but to then go and put all the blame on just one guy, who had the best numbers on the whole team is ludicrous.
The argument is that Wright never gets a big hit in the clutch, well how come Reyes gets a pass. When you need a big stolen base he never even tries. Sure he’s great with the 2 out stolen base of third with a six run lead but how about the 1 out 9th inning, down a run stolen base of 2nd? Never happens. Never ever ever.
The whole team choked but somehow only Wright is to be blamed.No mention that the pitching staff blew leads just about every night to sub par teams like the Nats and Marlins but Wright only homered in the 1st inning so you can’t count those you can only go by the pop up in the 8th inning after Maine,Glavine or Perez gave up 4-5 run leads.No mention of Delgado and Reyes’ failures.Just Wright’s.At least be fair about it,Reyes did nothing,zippo in both September collapses but that’s somehow forgotten because he had a big time year in 2011.Only on MMO can you get such objectivity.
Don’t say EVERYONE because you’re not speaking for everyone with your OPINION.
You are the epitome of hypocrisy…..crying your eyes out because someone factually stated that Reyes is not on pace for the HOF is NOT bashing him, now matter how many ways you try and twist what was said.
What would be even nicer is to see how you can make a batting champion look as bad as you think Reyes is!
WOW you have quite the vivid imagination and are really starting garbage that Joe D has specifically asked to cease. NOT ONE PERSON BASHED JOSE, not one in this thread.
Saying and back up with the requirements that he’s not on pace for HOF now is NOT BASHING the guy.
I’ve never read such garbage from people that want to argue just for the sake of arguing.
if it wasn’t for his past injuries he could very well end up in the h.o.f., when he plays he’s a game changer.true we haven’t won a title with him but it’s not all his fault.you just don’t replace what he can bring to the table.prospects pan out far less than trades and free agent signings,i prefer to keep a good player when we actually manage to get one,as opposed to letting him go for draft picks.i just don’t like the idea of taking 5 steps back to MAYBE taking one step forward.we should try to keep the good pieces we have instead of getting rid of them.a team needs veterans it can’t be entirely comprised of 25 year olds despite what some delusional people seem to think on this wbsite.
If it weren’t for injuries and other mitigating factors, I’m sure a lot of guys would have been on pace for the HoF at some point.
Strawberry, Gooden, Mattingly, Bo Jackson, I’m sure we can go on and on.
The fact is, for whatever reason, Reyes is not on pace for the HoF.
Joe Charboneau
Joe Charboneau! Good one! Mark Fydrich in all reality haad his career cut short by injury.
Mike Vail was on pace in ’75.
Butch Huskey was a spring training hall of famer.
“To get to 3,000 hits you have to guarantee me Reyes can average about 170 hits a season for the next 10 years. Can you guarantee me he’ll play 150+ games a year? If not, how’s he getting there? ”
I did no math?
can you guarantee he’s not?? can you guarantee he won’t get 170+ hits the next 10 years?? you’re amazing you know that?
Do you know what is wrong with your post?
Do you know what was wrong with yours?
NO POINT MADE WHATSOEVER!
CHALLENGE someone for proof you will NEVER provide for what you say!
Prove Reyes isn’t!
He was batting champ!
He is the team MVP!
He is the best player on the team!
If that to you says suck then I would love to see an example of what YOU think is HOF caliber!
Cause NO ONE would be in there under your standards!
Ummm Healthy+consistency+playing a high level for 15+ years would help
Considering Reyes hasn’t been on the field 140+ times since he was 25 years old in 2008, health is out the window
Since he’s been on the field for 9 years and realistically only 3 of them could even be considered “hall worthy” consistency is gone as is high level.
Saying a guy isn’t on the path to the HOF doesn’t mean we’re insulting him. Frankly, you’re insulting him by stating so surely that he is. You’re ignoring reality.
Tell me David Wright is on the same path please?
By the way Freddy Sanchez won a batting title and was the best player on the Pirates, how’s his HOF campaign going that you’re running?
Yeah and you have proof he won’t?
Your saying the Batting champ is not worth keeping.
How many GMs would agree with you?
How many are going to give him what you say isn’t worth giving?
How many of them will look at the Sabers and do it?
You say he’s not worth it yet he is going to be the highest paid FA this year!
So obviously the MLB doesn’t agree with YOUR OPINION!
Wait a second.. Who said he sucks?
Jessup and Donal!
He’s not worth signing and could NEVER get into the Hall…
Just read their posts it will help you catch up!
Saying he’s not worth signing (which I disagree with and that he will NEVER get into the HOF is a far cry from saying the guy sucks.
What is it with this site? People are always trying to claim people said things they didn’t say.
I saw the he’s not on a hall of fame pace,I’ve seen he’s not worth signing but I never ever saw a single Met fan say Reyes sucks.I’m caught up too.
Where did I say Reyes sucks and isn’t worth signing?
I want to see the quote.
In order for Reyes to hit 3,000 he likely has to be a better hitter than one of your idols George Brett from the ageof 29 on.
From the age of 29 on, Brett hit 166, 144, 107, 184, 128, 124, 180, 129, 179 (this is where Reyes would crack 3,000)
Reyes needs 1,700 hits to get to 3,000 and I think we ALL agree his best season as a pro by far was 2011. But if we take the year he had his most hits which was 2008, here is what he needs to do.
1,300
29-30 204 hits
30-31 204 hits
31-32 204 hits
32-33 204 hits
33-34 204 hits
34-35 204 hits
35-36 204 hits
36-37 204 hits
37-38 68 hits
In order to hit 204 hits, Reyes had to play 159 games in 2008.
If you 100% honestly believe that Reyes will stay healthy enough to do this for 8.5 years then god bless ya, but saying he isn’t on a realistic HOF pace isn’t bashing the man. It’s being realistic.
Do you know how many players have had 200+ hits since 2008 more than once? Two. Ichiro & Robinson Cano (and neither did it this year)
What’s next? Are we gonna say Reyes is as good of a hitter as Ichiro was? Please… getting into a war over Jose Reyes’ likelihood of being a HOF’er/getting 3,000 hits is just silly. The man has 1,300 for his career after 9 years. You know how many Jeter had? 1,546.
It’s nice to think Reyes will be a 40 year old man hitting 150 base hits, but longevity is clearly not going to be on Reyes’ side.
Sorry that should read
28-29 204 hits
29-30 204 hits
30-31 204 hits
31-32 204 hits
32-33 204 hits
33-34 204 hits
34-35 204 hits
35-36 204 hits
36-37 68 hits
Hmm George Brett played 21 years! 3154 Hits.
reyes in 9 has 1300!
Brett averaged 150 Hits a season
Reyes 144
BIG Difference eh?
6 whole hits a season!
Your talking a difference of 121 Hits in 21 years and who knows if Reyes is just getting started on winning batting titles every year!
Do you?
You sure HOPE so because if he wins anymore and he goes your going to be the one that looks real foolish for saying he isn’t worth squat!
21 years? Is that all it’s going to take? A guy with leg problems whose game is based on speed just has to perform at All Star levels for the next 12 years?
Piece of cake.
haha exactly JUST 21 years. That’s all. Piece of cake. No problem. Besides everybody knows players get faster and healthier as they enter their 30′s. Just ask Barry Bonds. It’s natural!
Hmmm the two STAT guys it appears can’t do Math very well!
Brett played 21 years!
21-9 is how much braniacs?
12 years!
I suppose in your REALITY it comes out to 21 years!
Metsie…you missed where Donal said:
“A guy with leg problems whose game is based on speed just has to perform at All Star levels for the next 12 years?”
You’re really one to talk. How about some reading comprehension, bud?
This will be my last comment here because frankly, if I have to sit here and detail why its far fetched for Jose Reyes to be a 3,000 hit guy then I’m not sure this is really that educational of a debate rather than people just wanting to argue.
Players get worse with age, that’s an undeniable fact unless we are advocating steroids now.
If you just for a second look at the most recent players to hit 3,000: Jeter, Biggio, Palmeiro, Henderson, Ripken Jr would be how far back you go to get to hitters who did it since 2000.
From the season in which they turned 29 to the year they hit their 3,000th hit.
Jeter averaged 148 games a season
Biggio averaged 148 games a season
Palmeiro averaged 148 games a season
Henderson averaged 119 games a season
And I doubt I need to average out Cal Jr’s games played for you.
So yes, if you’d like to tell me you think Jose Reyes is the next Rickey Henderson minus the fact he is clearly not. Then you’d need to tell me you have more faith in the fact Reyes can play an average of 148 games PER season for the next 10 years minimum.
I honestly cannot even fathom how somebody could honestly expect that.
Almost all Hall of Famers have defied the odds and it’s too early to say Reyes will not defy the odds. Nobody here knows the measure and determination of the man and what role fate will play. Everyone thought he was washed up a year ago and he defied those odds quite nicely. Alderson was certainly left with his mouth agape and was probably the most shocked. Most Hall of Famers usually make most of the so-called experts who never gave them a chance eat a lot of crow. Happens more often than not.
Craig Biggio is a better comparison to Jose Reyes than Aparicio or any of those other golden era ballplayers.
At age 28 Reyes has 1300 hits, Biggio had 938. Biggio lost most of his speed by age 32 and that was the last year he played at an all star level, but he still kept tacking on hits until he retired at age 41 with 3,060.
At age 28, all the Mets fans/Reyes detractors would have probably made these same arguments against Biggio.
The point is that the road to projecting the future is wrought with pot holes and dead ends. That’s why we play the games.
Yes and from the age of 23-33 Biggio averaged 152 games a season. He was as healthy as anybody during the bulk of his career.
From age 21 – 28 Reyes is averaging 12 games a season.
So when Reyes is supposed to be at his healthiest he is 30 games behind Craig Biggio 5 years from now.
Do you realize over 20 years of pro baseball Biggio AVERAGED 142 games a season? To even try and compare that to projecting Reyes as he gets older is totally unjustified.
Reyes already has almost a 400 hits advantage over Biggio at the same age. Nothing you say will convince me that Reyes does not have a chance. Nothing.
Oh and by the way, in your chart you posted for what Reyes needs to do, I added my own projections in parenthesis:
28-29 204 hits (204 hits)
29-30 204 hits (180 hits)
30-31 204 hits (184 hits)
31-32 204 hits (179 hits)
32-33 204 hits (181 hits)
33-34 204 hits (172 hits)
34-35 204 hits (179 hits)
35-36 204 hits (163 hits)
36-37 68 hits (137 hits)
38-39 (105 hits)
39-40 (75 hits)
40-41 (68 hits)
3,127 hits for Reyes. Projecting is silly because anyone can just make the numbers work out the way they want.
Incidentally, Biggio only had a 200 hit season once after age 28. 200 hit seasons make the road to 3,000 easier, but it’s not a mandate.
Sit back and enjoy the games.
You don’t take the best case scenario or outlier and expect it to play out that way.
And don’t forget, Biggio changed positions 3 years into his career.
“Projecting is silly because anyone can just make the numbers work out the way they want.”
Except there is usually a rhyme and reason for the numbers. Like you look at the player in question’s history and try and match it up with similar type players.
From age 21 – 28 Reyes is averaging 122 games a season. Not 12 haha
Ok so you stick around for as long as your cheerleaders make it look like you have support but when the rest of MMO gets on you, you merely run away and refuse to talk about it anymore only to bring it up tomorrow with the same tired approach you used here and didn’t work so ran away!
You Know if you not really interested in debating, POINT/COUNTERPOINT and just want to call everyone who seems to get in the way of your PURGE THE ROSTER Wait FIVE YEARS plan crazy unrelaistic and stupid there is no point even replying or writing your Sell off pieces at all!
Go to a site where they all agree with you!
Take Donal with you!
But stop making everyone who disagrees with you out as crazy,unrealistic and misinformed!
Because none of us are trying to say the current batting champ is a chump and not worth keeping!
Thats ALL YOU!
What is wrong with you people?
No one can guarantee that he will or will not do anything.
All people can do is have an OPINION on whether he will or will not accomplish a certain feat. That’s it.
Some feel Reyes is likely to make the HOF, others not so much. Who’s opinion is correct? Who knows?
Why don’t we just wait and find out.
Thats not Math…That prediction…You predict he won’t because you want him gone!
If you wanted him here you would predict he would!
You did not math just waved you magical MoneyCrystalBall!
EVERYTHING MET SUCKS!
Lets be the Pirates and sell them all off!
So, is this what you mean by adult conversation?
Yep! You should try it sometime!
I want Reyes here for the entire rest of his career, although I’ll gladly settle for the next five years but I’m not predicting he’ll make the HOF. I’m quite certain he won’t. Sorry, I know we’re not supposed to disagree with the core opinion and while I’d love few things more than an everyday position playing Met to make the HOF I just don’t see it.
To some that may be blasphemy but really where do you draw the line? Are we suppossed to agree with your every opinion. Did you once feel the same way about Fonzie? Jon Matlack? Jerry Grote? Wayne Garrett? Neil Allen? Craig Swan? Ed Kranepool?
Rooting for your team doesn’t mean you can’t be realistic in your thoughts or have your own opinion.
Here’s my opinion on a player currently under team control that I think has the best chance to enter the HOF. Jenry Mejia. I think Mejia will come back better than ever. I think he’ll quickly re establish feel for his cutter and and gradually tighten his curve and elevate his change into an elite strike 3 pitch. I think he will establish himself as the go to guy in the pen in 2013 in all sorts of situations. A true crossover reliever and that at some point in 2014 he’s going to take over the closers role and be lights out for a decade and I believe that he has the best chance of making the HOF of all the current players in our system.
As for the next Met (or 2nd Met ever) to win rookie of the year. My top three choices in order Harvey, Familia, Gilbert Gomez Don’t agree with me? That’s OK I’m not shattered.
Disagree with me and all I’ll have to say is lets find out. We’ll see. I’m not going to throw myself on the floor claiming that everyone else claims everything about the Mets Sucks and that you would like to sell Mejia for a fungo bat and two tylenols. I’ll simply be aware that a difference of opinions exists between two fans of the same team. Like that’s never happened before. I’ll remain just as optimisitc as I am right now about Mejia regardless of whether you share that optimisim or not.
Hey speeking of Jon Matlack, he just became Pitching coach for Astros ML team.
After the 1999 and 2000 I honestly though Fonzie was on his way to the HOF and the same with Wright after his first 4 seasons.It’s amazing how things change.Reyes could have just come into his own last year and become the player we’ve been waiting 9 years for.He has to stay healthy though to even consider the Hall.The talent is undoubtedly there.
Live and let live was a comment I made about not attacking a person because of his choice of a favorite player when he was about 8 years old but in no way should prevent someone from disagreeing about the lkelihood of a players HOF candidacy. You and Metsie share the same opinion about Reyes chances for the HOF, I think it’s unlikely and simply stated why.
Not thinking Reyes will make the HOF doesn’t in anyway detract from how much I like him and can in no way be regarded as “bashing” a player.
I can’t help but notice that you didn’t respond to the points I made in my comments however.
Your entitled to your opinion and can voice it anytime you want, same as me. That’s just disagreeing. Shouldn’t be a big deal. Certainly isn’t the same as complaining about who an 8 year old chose as their favorite player is it?
live and let live, if someone thinks reyes can be productive and be a hofer then let that person’s thought be validated as well… metsie never said reyes was a hof, he said if he continues the production!!! he will be, guess what. he’s right!!!!!!!
and btw, he said he was 4.. and imo, he’s lying, is like me saying i watch sandy koufax pitch… at 4 years old what knwoledge of baseball and situations do you have? really??
Regarding Reyes, why must some piss on a Mets fans hopes and optimism? After all, shouldn’t all fans be hopeful and enthusiastic about their players chances? Isn’t fan short for fanatic? Why do people want to take the fanaticism away from real fans? The scientific approach is okay for some, but not all.
Why do some have to attack any player on the Mets? I think that is way more troubling than correcting someone saying something provably wrong.
Someone says “Reyes is on a HoF pace!” to try and prove a misguided point. Others point out that he is in fact not on such a pace.
No one is saying “don’t root for Reyes” or “Reyes isn’t any good”.
Well you may want to ask that question to someone else. I may not be the right person to answer that as I just posted a blog in which I admitted cursing out Davey Johnson and Rick Aguilera. :-O
It’s not a scientific approach for me and my opinion on Reyes chance of making the HOF (which I never even thought about until today) doesn’t prevent me from rooting my *** off for him or enjoying his play and hoping we resign him one single bit.
I don’t think that my opinion on a topic should have anything to do with crushing another fans hopes and optimism. My realistic opinion doesn’t stifle my own hopes and optimism why should it stifle anyone else’s?
The HOF isn’t even where it’s at for me. I just want to see smart, crisp, well played baseball that’s gets us into the post season and wins a few World Championships.
Sorry if I pissed all over someone’s hope and optimism, even if some piss on others hope and optimism 50 times a day, every day, day after day and are hyper sensitive to even the slightest disagreement of their opinion.
Here, Reyes is a sure fire first ballot HOFer. All better now?
I’ll tell you why Joe…
Because if you think they are going to be good you can’t implement the selloff!
The guys who are diminishing the talent we have here NEED TO in order to sell their ROSTER ERASER and 6 year Build plan!
No one will sit though that if they are cionvinced we have good players!
So they need to make it look like the Met world has come to an end so people will sit by while they play their slow as molasses approach and Moneyball!
Everything with you comes down to Moneyball and a Conspiracy Theory, doesn’t it?
If the Wilpons had the money to spend, I’d love to see them spend it on big name free agents. But they don’t. Period. End of story. They owe MLB money. They owe money for gigantic loans that they took to finance the construction of Citi Field and the starting of SNY. They owe potentially at least $386 million dollars to Irving Picard, the Madoff trustee in money that isn’t even theres! The sagging attendance has caused the team to incur losses of $50 million in 2010 and $70 million in 2011. They’ve got albatross contracts in Jason Bay and Johan Santana who are basically dead money at this point.
This is a team that’s bleeding money from every angle. It’s not feasible for them add additional contracts on top of that. I’d love for them to re-sign Reyes! I’d give him a 6 year, $120 million contract right on the spot if it were up to me. But it’s not up to me. It’s not up to you. To a degree it’s not even up to Sandy Alderson, though he’s the one making the decisions. It’s all about what the team can afford right now and they can’t afford much. The plan to go lean is partially a consequence of that but it’s also good business in a lot of ways. You need to build through the farm to win. Even the Yankees do it and they seemingly have more money than they know what to do with.
It’s about being smart and using every single resource you can use. When the ownership is down and out like the Wilpons currently are, you have to rely on other avenues to acquire talent and sometimes you have to go lean.
And everything comes down to everyone who wears a met uni sucks so lets get rid of them because we shouldn’t spend money!
Please show us your data on Wilpon finances…
Lets see they WERE RICH!
Got 300 Mil they weren’t supposed to get!
And that makes them POORER because they lost 120Mil in two years because YOU DON”T GO SEE THEM PLAY just look at their stats when the game is over!
By my calculation they are still 180Mil up not down!
To dispute your claims:
1. If I think everybody in Mets uni sucks, why do I want to re-sign Jose for 6 years, 120 million like I said just above?
2. I don’t go see them play? And you know this how? I went to five games last year and I make it a point to go that amount of games every year. No, I don’t have season tickets but frankly, times are tough monetarily. I go as often as my means allow.
3. You want me to prove the Wilpons finances? Okay:
Here’s a link to an article saying that the most the Wilpons will have to pay back is 386M: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-28/sports/30240146_1_madoff-estate-sterling-equities-saul-katz
Here’s a link saying that they lost 70 million in 2011: http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/09/mets-win-madoff-battle-but-might-lose-jose-reyes.html
Here’s a link saying that they lost 50 million in 2010: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/sports/baseball/25mets.html?_r=1&ref=sports
Not to mention that the economy is terrible and their business, the real estate market, is in a gigantic recession. But hey…what do I know, right? It’s not like you can’t figure this stuff out by reading a newspaper or something. Oh wait…you can? Oh, okay.
And once again, I go to plenty of games a year. Enjoy trying to disprove the facts that I provided you.
Oh right…forgot to add this:
The Mets borrowed 25 million from MLB: http://www.metstoday.com/6194/2011-spring-training/mets-borrowed-25-million-from-mlb/
The Mets took loans for SNY: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2011/02/01/sny-debt-will-impact-sale-of-new-york-mets/
The Mets took loans for Citi Field: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/de_perate_mets_in_new_relief_pitch_3Sp88YVWEvp3QZH8q8HwtO
Because being unrealistic to the point of yelling and trying to claim you’re correct is ridiculous.
Maybe a Royals fan thinks his team has a shot to win it all. That’s nice, but it isn’t logical. And to sit there and show anger to those who doubt you doesn’t make you right it makes you nieve.
If you’re telling me part of being a fan is that I’m supposed to expect the unbelievable then that’s fine. Then I now believe David Wright, Daniel Murphy, Angel Pagan, and Ruben Tejada are all on a pace to make the Hall of Fame.
In a few decades, the best pitcher in the league will be win the Mike Pelfrey Award.
Likely only to happen whe Pelfrey starts his own online MLB 2k50 Dynasty
What some of you forget is that many of us embrace baseball to distract us from reality. We go through all the realities of computing taxes, budgets and forecasting in our everyday lives. I’m not looking to bring all of that into a pastime like baseball. In fact, I love being a dreamer, I love that I dont have to be realistic and scientific and serious all the time. I enjoy being impulsive, emotional and irrational – all the things I’m not in my regular life. Basically I enjoy being a fanatic. I enjoy being a fan. You have to be a little nuts and a little fanatic to run a site like this and call it Metsmerized. That’s what I am, metsmerized, and there’s nothing scientific or rational about that.
Ya, but what you’re doing is just enjoying what you like. We all do that. There’s nothing wrong with it.
If you don’t want to talk about the stats and how player are actually producing, you don’t have to.
But, if you’re going to engage in a conversation that is specifically about determining the production of certain players, then real numbers are going to be used. No sense complaining about it.
What you like is baseball AMerica not the NY METS!
You trash them at every turn, call them all worthless and claim they need to be PURGED from the roster!
THATS the UNREALITY being posted around here…
Cool story, brah.
this is what jess-eP does, he insti-gates situations and wants to turn everything into a debate and if you don’t agree with him, then you have no knowledge of baseball. not a one point metsie said reyes is a hall of famer, he said “if he keeps up the production of 2011 he will be on pace”, i mean, he as a fan is just wishing that reyes #1 stays, and #2 keeps producing the way he did for us in 2011. but no, jess-eP only read HOF and he went on about how reyes (HIS FAVORITE PLAYER MIGHT I ADD) is not a hof-er, how rollins is better, tulowitzki is like robin yount (mind you he NEVER saw robin yount in his prime play), etc.. just pure hatred because he don’t like reyes because he bunted to win the batting title…
Are you serious? Sadly, I think you actually are. You continue to call Jessep out for everything YOU do yourself. He NEVER bashed him, NEVER,by saying he’s not on pace to be in the HOF but that doesn’t fit into your twisting of what he says everyday.
You do the same exact thing about Wright, but that’s ok. You are the king of “do as I say, not as I do”.
The only one being UNREALISTIC here is You and Donal Jessup!
Your being UNREALISTIC about how bad you portray Reyes’ worth!
How BAD you say the MiL system is despite the list as long as my arm AND leg of kids who did well this year and the list that have yet to come up yet!
You want REALITY stop trying to make the current BATTING CHAMP out to be a CHUMP!
“Because being unrealistic to the point of yelling and trying to claim you’re correct is ridiculous. ” So why do you and Donal do it?
You have been trying to malign the Minors, Reyes Wright just about ANYONE in the sell of your PURGE priciple which no team other than Florida and Oakland have done in their lives and succeeded!!
So then just so you’re on the record
For the next 10 years of Jose Reyes career do you feel he will average 130+ games PER season and do you feel David Wright is on the path to the Hall of Fame?
Wright will have to pull a rabbit out of his hat like Reyes did in 2011 with an MVP season to disprove the notion that he has been in decline since 2008. Then we can resurrect that conversation.
One season is just that: one season. You can’t just assume all of Reyes’ troubles are behind him because he had one really great season. Especially when you take a deeper look into that season.
The same with Wright. If he turns it around and hits 35 HR and bats .330, we’re all still going to make sure it was real an not just a lucky streak.
But fanaticism for you isn’t fanaticism for me. Maybe you like to live in dreamland, while I really enjoy learning about the serious, nitty-gritty business stuff. At the end of the day, we’re both still fans but we just appreciate different areas and viewpoints. Doesn’t make you or me any more of a fan than the other.
Right. I like to live in reality as a fan. The reality that has proven to me athletes not using drugs get weaker and slower as time goes on… the reality that has proven to me that players who have been on the DL 7 times before they turn 29 will not magically get healthier and the reality that a player who averages 98 games a season when he’s 26, 27 and 28 years old is not the type of player who will sustain healthy longevity into their late 30′s.
It’s okay to be a fan but ignoring facts and reality doesn’t mean you’re more of a fan.
Do you have a chart to show players who have been on the DL 7 times before age 29 decline? Or is that just another bit of supposition we are all supposed to take as fact?
In fact I bet MOST guys have been hurt 7 times before they are 29 in the MLB!
Everyone gets hurt!
Name a player(s) who NEVER went on the DL if you think otherwise!
Being on the DL 7 times is quite a bit different than NEVER being on the DL don’t you think Metsie?
The question is, do players get healthier as they get older? Unless they are taking steroids like Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens, no they do not. There’s something called an aging curve that the majority of athletes follow. Jose will most likely only get hurt more as he gets older since he’s, you know, a human being.
maybe he’s got special vitamins bro
Yeah well only the ones who live in dreamland actually don’t see how good this team could be with a little pitching!
.519 Win Pct in May?
.593 Win Pct in June?
.519 Win Pct in July?
Figment of everyone’s imagination right the team really sucked through that time right?
YOUR living the fantasy!
They were 11-16 in April, though.
This is me waving hi to you from the real world, where April, May, June, July, August and September all count as part of the baseball season.
According to the Baseball Reference.com
Reyes is averaging 144.4 hits per season, but 201 hits per 162 games.
High of 204 (2008)159 games and low of 41 (2009) 36 games.
I do not think he will play 162 games a season, but I want him signed and retire a Met.
We screwed up with Seaver, I hope they don’t screw this up either.
Carney Lansford, Willie Wilson, Don Mattingly, Julio Franco, Edgar Martinez, John Olerud, Paul O’Neill, Bernie Williams, Nomar Garciaparra, Bill Mueller, Michael Young, Joe Mauer, Magglio Ordonez, Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera
Bill Madlock, Al Oliver, Willie Mcgee, Tim Raines, Terry Pendleton, Andres Galarraga, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Derrek Lee, Freddy Sanchez, Matt Holliday, Chipper Jones, Hanley Ramirez, Carlos Gonzalez, Jose Reyes
All have won a batting title since 1981 and either are not or will have to do a lot of work to get to the HOF
Wade Boggs, Kirby Puckett, George Brett, Tony Gwynn are the only ones currently in the HOF
lex Rodriguez, Frank Thomas, Ichiro, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds are the guys who logically should get in (assuming no steroid issues ever happened) who also won batting titles
So 33% of those who have won a batting title since 1981 are in or should be in th HOF and 4 of them have steroid use associated with them which would knock it down to 20%
This is why I don’t go gaga over a batting title.
Chipper Jones is a HOF lock.
He’s still too young to call it a lock, but gun to my head, nothing but a career ending injury in the next year or two could derail Miggy Cab’s HOF career. And Tim Raines is the most underrated player in baseball history. It’s a crime he’s not in already.
C’mon X-Man you know Chips a lock,he’s a 1st ballot HOFer.One of the greatest switch hitters of all time.
My bad,I thought you were saying Chipper is not a lock.Miggy is on his way,no doubt.IF he stays healthy of course.
Sign Oswalt. We need to continue the storied Mets tradition of aging, used-to-be-great pitchers residing on the 60 day-DL.
There’s one sure way to know for sure whether Reyes makes the HOF. Build a time machine and set it for 2025 and look it up. Then get back to us.
Reyes is arguably the most exciting offensive player in the majors right now. He has the ability to put the Mets on his back and carry the team.
But one of the major reasons most are picked for the Hall is: “did they help their team win the world series?”.
In my opinion, Phil Rizzuto does not belong in the Hall – except for one big reason – he played in a lot of world series.
Jeter and Rivera are shoe-ins. They deserve to be AND they played a ton of World Series games.
The way the number one market Mets stand right now – post Madoff – they will not be sniffing the playoffs for at least a couple of years. So the easy money on Reyes and the HOF is he would need to go to a contender if he hopes to get in (that and 3000 hits).