12
2011
Epstein To Cubs Doesn’t Bode Well For The Mets
An article by 
With the news that Theo Epstein has departed Bean-Town for Chi-Town to go and run the Cubs, I can’t help thinking that this move will impact the Mets in many adverse ways.
For one, in the short term, Sandy Alderson will now be competing with Theo in scouring the free agent rolls looking for under-valued players that they can add to bolster their over-budget and under-performing rosters.
Both teams are both in dire straits – finding themseleves in similar rebuild-type modes, but not in a position to shout it from the rooftops, lest they tick off the few fans that are still willing to come to their parks and watch the games.
Epstein is also no stranger to pulling the trigger to acquire top-shelf talent like he did with Adrian Gonzalez, which may not concern these current Mets, but could certainly impede them or thwart their efforts in future seasons, when they finally get back into spending mode and need a player or two to put them over the top.
Like Alderson, Theo is a saber-warrior too, except for the glaring fact that he has won two World Series in the last seven years and is light-years ahead of the competition when it comes to building a winner via any means necessary. That includes investing heavily in the Draft and keeping a keen eye on the international front as well, and not just going after the best free agents which he does with the best of them.
In the long-term, while the Mets bicker over whether they will someday compete and spend like their big-market brethren again, you can count on Epstein to spend whatever it takes to field a winner and do for the Cubs what he did for the Red Sox – breaking a dry spell that has lasted far too many decades and hoisting a World Series flag in Wrigley Field like the two in Fenway Park.
Winning is a word that is very prominent in Epstein’s vocabulary.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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You think Ricketts bought the Cubs and brought in Epstien just so he could repeat the Tribune’s mistakes?
And Cubs fans go to games no matter what. They haven’t won a World Series in over 100 years and have sucked hard for a lot of that time. they suck now. Sucking for the next 2 years or so won’t change that.
Epstein’s going to have more challenges here than Alderson did when he joined the Mets.
Both of them had their highly rated prospects all centered in and around A- and A+ but Alderson did have pitching in the minors and was able to add to it with the Beltran trade. Epstein has just one well thought of pitching prospect and just two young graduates of the farm, Castro and Castillo up here now.
Brett Jackson (CF) is his only decent prospect above A+ and he’s blocked this year by Byrd. Soriano has three years to go, no one is taking on Zambranno and his only real trading chip is Garza, and just to equalize what the Cubs gave up to get him is going to be next to impossible.
Without anyone even close and no pitching in the system at all below the Major league level it’s going to be a treading water situation for about 4 years at best.
Epstein walked into a very talented team and added a few key components, who didn’t cost draft choices or hamstring the payroll and played pretty well and he was then able to exchange them for draft choices to replenish the system but he made plenty of mistakes too. Lugo, Renteria, Lackey, Crawford. Where he did well was in letting guys go and drafting well.
He’ll be after the same types of guys who would help us. Guys that will become free agents in a year or two and guys with the potential to return draft choices if they re establish themselves on a one year deal.
With nothing to trade, it’s not going to be easy for Epstein and I predict the clock strikes 12 in four years. Four long losing years.
I agree on the point about increased competition since now Epstein will also be looking for under-valued players that they can add to bolster their over-budget and under-performing rosters. But as far as competition on the draft, international, and eventually free agents, he would of been doing the same thing as GM of the Red Sox, but with an even bigger budget. Also, at least Sandy Alderson got a year head start on him in revamping the organization.
Also, at least Sandy Alderson got a year head start on him in revamping the organization”
Revamping the organization??? how??
Remedial baseball class will begin in 5 minutes.
Be sure to bring a notebook so we can go over the same thing for the 300th time.
Why waste your time Joe? He’ll never learn.
Where you have to start, the front office and the scouting staff. I believe the entire amatuer scouting staff was replaced.
Revamping? WTF r u talking about? Wheeler is “revamping” and what not? WTF did he do besides allow our closer to go minus replacing him?
Sorry, but draft picks in 2011 isn’t “revamping” because we REGRESSED as an organization. I don’t want to hear about any celebrations because OMAR MINAYA’S drafted/signed players had good seasons. Alderson gets NO CREDIT for them.
Revamped…LOL. I’m going to be around to HAMMER that reminder in just in case some of you try to give credit to Alderson for “cutting payroll” and THEN giving him credit for cheaper players that HE DIDN’T SIGN OR DRAFT! SMH
He got a head START on him. A START, where you have to start in revamping with the front office and the scouting staffs. I believe the entire amatuer scounting staff was replaced. So you could say he’s one draft class ahead of Theo at this point.
Rome was not built in a day.
Neither was the last Mets team to win a world series.
Jim when Omar fan speaks just move on to the next post.Omar Minaya is his idol and could do no wrong.Even though he did nothing right.
I can’t see this having any bit more impact on the Mets than another GM getting hired to the Cubs. I Riccardi or Depodesta got signed, then yeah, that I can see being an issue, but Theo? He’s looking for value just as much as the Mets are. Maybe it’s actually a good thing and Theo can shed Big Z’s contract and the Mets can take on a SP (albeit a massive headache of one).
Wait…are you advocating for the Mets to acquire Carlos Zambrano?
Not really. As a junk for junk trade, where the mets need a pitcher and want to unload bay or something like that, for giggles and conversation’s sake, why not.
Do I want big Z? No.
That said, the Cubs will need a 3B and we do have Murphy…
we can get a good pitcher for Murphy.
I wasn’t saying Z for murphy, but agreed, should be able to get a decent pitcher for the murph man.
But the Cubs have nothing to offer outside of Garza, and I don’t really want him, even if Murphy was enough to get him.
I’m not up to date on the kids they have in AAA or anything, so I’ll just roll with what you are saying and call this a dead duck.
Ya, it’s not good. there are teams in need of a guy like Murphy who have more to offer.
wright + prospects for garza and colvin!?!? DONE!!!!!!
No thanks, Theo
Oh goodness, no. Let’s try for a young pitcher who’ll actually be in the organization in 2-3 years when we’re ready to compete.
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so are we conceiding 2 more years??? so is ok for alderson to continue to put crap on the field, he’ll get a pass, then in 2014 we’d be ready to competer?? are you listeningto yourself!
I’d rather have Bay than Zambrano
Guys – it’s not 2003 anymore. EVERY team is looking for undervalued players…not just the Aldersons/Epsteins/Beanes of the world.
The only threat this has on the Mets is that the Cubs are in the NL, and thus a well-managed Cubs team threatens the Mets’ ability to win a wild card some day.
a well managed cubs team.
talk about an oxymoron
Don’t state facts. It doesn’t go well with the worship of our over the hill GM.
Teams have ALWAYS tired to find players that were undervalued – It’s nothing new. I don’t know why everyone tries to make it sound like it’s something that teams are just starting to do….teams have always tried to do that.
Agreed. The Wilpons have chased high-priced free agents in the way James Dolan does with the Knicks. Donnie Walsh was brought in to clean up Ishaih’s mess, levels with the fan base and creates a strong baseline level of young talent, which was squandered once again by Dolan in the Carmelo Anthony acquisition. Its a form of impatience enabled by financial immaturity.
I think Alderson has the same approach as Donnie Walsh, but isn’t quite as open with the fan base. He’s naturally reticent and isn’t a blunt New Yorker like Donnie, but his approach appears to be the same and one that I endorse.
Alderson managed to jettison K-Rod’s option year and acquired to decent arms in the process. He acquired a top pitching prospect in Wheeler when Beltran clearly wasn’t going to lead us to any promised land. And he snatched a nice Rule 5 talent in Beato, instead of losing one (Jesus Flores to the Nats) as Omar did.
Alderson projects an organizational thought process that was clearly absent from Omar’s calculus. One clear example is Alderson’s signing Capuano & Chris Young to affordable one year contracts, hedging his bets with high end health risks, as opposed to Omar throwing 36m at Ollie Perez in the absence of a competitive market push.
We’re in very good hands now and all that is required is a little patience and an historical understanding of the ground swells that led to the Mets championship seasons of 1969 & 1986.
Think of Koosman, Seaver, Agee & Grote in 1968 and of Mookie, Hubie Brooks, Neal Allen & Company in 1982 while Dykstra, Doc & Darryl were developing in the NY Met farm system. Additional moves yielded Darling & Sid Fernandez, and soon we had the makings of a juggernaut.
Patience is imperative.
BTW – Epstein to the Cubs will not impact the Mets one iota. The quality of Alderson’s work, the coaching staff & player performance are relevant. What Theo Epstein does or doesn’t do doesn’t matter.
Could not possibly agree more 2 Cat. You’ve nailed it. Financial immaturity. Very well said.
Patience is unfortunately is short supply from the spoiled brat section of the fan base.
Some Met Fans have grown up on the “who can we get for 13 spots on the 40 man roster every off season” and wouldn’t know what to do with themselves if that ever changed. They’ve been taught to view their farm system as way down the list of priorities for acquiring new players, preferring instead the brand new shiny Mo Vaughn under their Christmas tree right next to the brand new Jason Bay all decked out in his hitting shoes.
Immaturity for sure, and not just financial immaturity either.
That is 100% false. Everybody understands that building the team through the farm system is the best way to build a team.
Omar had nothing in the minors when he got here, and now we have a lot of good young players, plus our minors is MUCH better now than it was when he got here – Why don’t you talk about that? Why don’t you talk about Davis, Niese, Murph, Duda, Gee, Tejada, Harvey, Famillia, Mejia, Havens, and Flores?
And of course you bring up Bay, why don’t you bring up Beltran instead, who played great for the Mets? Or Delgado who did really good too? I can make ANY team look bad if I only bring up the bad moves they made, and ignore all the good ones.
And by the way, even though building a team through the farm system is the best way to build a team, that doesn’t mean free agency isn’t important – Teams have won by adding good players in FA. Last year, the Giants signed Huff who helped them win a WS, and the Rangers signed Vlad who helpd them make it to a WS. Or how about this year when the Cards signed Berkman? They don’t make the playoffs without him.
vinny, this guy is all about double standard, he waits for them to fail to point that out… in his mind, he wants an all lineup full of homegrowns by 2013, meaning, he wants to sign no free agents for years to come.. don’t waste your time and knowledge man
I have written extensively about the depth and some higher end talent Minaya brought to the farm system. I’ve written thousands of times about how barren it was before he got here.
I was the first poster here, and elsewhere to claim Tejada would be more than just a back up MIer. I even wrote about him hitting .300 last off season. I’m a big believer in Familia, Mejia, if he ever develops a pitch to go with his cutter and Harvey so it’s not like I don’t bring up the prospects Minaya acquired, I do. I’m just not blinded like some fans are that we’re the only one’s that have prospects (hopefully) being developed in the farm. Most teams have more than we do and most of them are more highly regarded than ours and that’s a fact. That was true in 2005 and it’s still true today.
I too believe in the free agent, but very sparingly. I prefer the trade of the player a year to two before he’s a free agent but the ace type A free agent? Yeah I’m all in for that. Not CJ Wilson though, I’m talking ACE and only AFTER your starting eight is set and you already have some AAA depth and at least something in the pen and tell me why is it always a type A free agent every year? And what’s wrong with letting a guy go free agent and getting a couple of picks back to balance it out?
I don’t mention Beltran because he’s one of the 10 best CFer of all time signed at 28 years of age. A complete no brainer great signing and only cost a 3rd round round draft choice to boot. Delgado was a trade, didn’t cost any picks.
Your point about Vlad Guerrero, Aubrey Huff and Lance Berkman is not the same thing the Mets have been doing for the last 15 years either and you know it. None of those guys cost their teams a draft pick, ALL of the guys we sign ALWAYS cost us at least a draft choice every year on average so your just being dishonest there.
If it were just the cash I wouldn’t care but it’s the value not received from players available in the first and 2nd round that is the cause of all the “holes we have” every year.
It’s also the huge contracts that cause us to skimp on the draft and select less expensive players which just compounds the issue.
So signing the 10th best CF of all time doesn’t count? Come on, you keep talking about every bad move he made, and when he makes a great move, it doesn’t count – unbelievable.
You said a LOT more negative things about the Mets minor league system than postitive things. Like we developed no C, no RFer, no, 2B, and no LF – How could Omar develop solid major league players at all of those positions(plus pitching)when he’s only had four drafts we can judge yet? Your asking him to do something thing that is impossible.
And actually, I hear you say a LOT more positive things about the Braves minor league system than the Mets.
Where or when did I say Beltran didn’t count? OK, out of how many free agents signed or resigned one worked out. Let’s throw a parade.
And where is our catching tandem? Thole’s only adequate in a platoon/split arrangement. Duda’s no RFer. We’ll live with him but defensively he’s just not very good. 2B we finally have a couple op options. A real good looking IFA, a waiver wire acquisition, Murphy if need be, Valdespin and Havens possibly but that doesn’t excuse the circus that’s existed there since Fonzie left and LF, give me a break. We spent a #2 pick on Floyd, a #1 on Alou and another #2 on Bay and your defending this? As if it’s good player management?
The Braves farm is vastly superior to ours, anyone can see that.
You said that you didn’t mention Beltran because he’s one of the top ten CF’s of all time. And I’m saying that doesn’t make any sense because if you do sign one of the top ten cf’s of all time, it’s something that should be mentioned.
Like I said in my post above, expecting him to draft a solid C, 2b, Lf, Rf, plus solid pitching in four years of drafts(only four years because 09 and 10 drafts are too early to judge) is impossible.
Why don’t you go through the 05-08 drafts and find me a team that has drafted a C, 2B, Lf, RF, and starting pitching, and relief, all in the major leagues, and all of them playing really well – Let’s see if any GM even comes CLOSE to what you expected from Omar – I bet nobody does.
and add a 1B to that too. Because if the Mets didn’t draft Davis you would be saying “we have no 1B too”.
So find a team that has drafted a C, 1B, 2B, Lf, RF, good SP’s and RP’s, ALL from the 05-08 drafts, and ALL of them playing in the majors right now, and playing good too.
Because that’s what Omar should have done, right? Let’s see if anyone else has.
We wouldn’t have needed to hire a talent evaluator to tell us that Beltran was a great CFer but the combination of Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, K-Rod and Bay is what should be evaluated.
3 #1 picks, 2 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder in six years. Did we get full value out of those picks? On the field? I’d say no.
And I’m not going through every teams draft. Are you crazy? Not all teams draft predominately college players anyway, in fact most don’t. That adds time plus you’ll just move the goal post anyway.
“they drafted ahead of us that year.”
Not all teams may have prioritized those positions in the draft either.
Not every team may have had the need to promote a Josh Thole, Eddie Kunz, Ruben Tejada or Jenry Mejia. Some may have been traded.
The draft isn’t the only way that different positions could be covered either. There’s rule 5′s, non tenders, trading for another teams minor leaguer, IFA’s ect. The draft is only one part of the puzzle that the GM has to work with.
Here’s a team that drafted after us every year except 2007. You may or may not not be familiar with all the names but HS players take a lot longer to develop than college players and the Phillies draft primarilly HS players and it’s not the speed with which they get up here, it’s what they do when they get up here.
Phillies from 2005-2008. Josh Outman, Vance Worley, Kyle Drabek, Travis D’Anaurd, Jason Donald, Dominick Brown, Jarred Cosart, Jonathon Singleton, Anthony Gose, Jonathon Pettibone, Trevor May.
Braves from 2005-2008. Escobar, Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel, Minor, Beachy.
Nat’s Lannan, Peacock, Storen, J. Zimmerman, Derrick Norris, Danny Espinosa (didn’t include R Zimm, Strausberg or Harper since they were top 5 picks)
As for catcher off the top of my head Toronto has 3, NYY 3, Reds 2, Padres 2 very highly rated catches (some through IFA) that we could have gotten all but one of them (Mesoraco)
Draft’s can’t really be evaluated for many years anyway. All you can do is compare farm systems from 2005-2011 and even that is very subjective but I’ll tell you this much. Jocketty, Daniels, Moore, AA in Toronto and Hoyer in SD especially are doing a fantastic job and while it might not payoff for 2-4 years there is no question in my mind that Minaya could have done equally as well and we would be sitting on a gold mine right now.
and why don’t you show me which talent evaluating GM seven years after taking the job puts Thole behind the plate, Turner at 2B (if Reyes leaves) Duda in RF and Bay in LF?
Seven years, a #1 and two #2′s and that’s the best he can do? And to think he really had three of the eight positions already taken care of before his first game.
And we wouldn’t be talking about the past 20 Years if McIlvane actually was HALF as good as you make him out to be!
Face it dude we had NOTHING and made the playoffs in year 2!
Please show me another GM who did that with crap to work with and STILL get all the guys who made us .593 clip winners in July!
The Phillies Braves, nats, don’t even come close to what you asked Omar to do. You wanted Omar to develop players at almost every postion and pitching in a VERY short amount of time.
All Omar had to wrok with was 05-08(because 09 and 10 isn’t enought time to judge it). So in four years you wanted him to develop a ,C, 1b, 2b, lf, rf, SP and RP – that’s what you EXPECT. And I’m asking you what team has done that?
And to answer your question, “why does he have Thole behind the plate?” well the answer is simple, he had to build up the minor leagues from scratch. He was left with NOTHING…..and you expect him to turn it into one of the best minor leagues in only FOUR years(Only four years because you have no idea how the 09 and 10 drafts will work out).
So to expect him to turn one of the WORST minor league systems in the league into one of the BEST in only four years is VERY unfair. And you know it too.
Oh and I brought up Huff, Vlad, and Berkman because your saying that I’m(and other posters) are playing fantasy baseball when we say what players the Mets should sign.
My point with those guys was that if their GM’s didn’t play “fantasy baseball” they wouldn’t have had the success that they did – Adding good players in FA is very important, pretty much every team that made the playoffs added good players in FA. Phillies added Lee. Dbacks added Putz. Cards added Berkman. Rays signed Fransworth and Kotchman. Tigers added V Martinez, Benoit, and Alburquerque.
Yes adding good players via free agency is an important part of the mix but it doesn’t do **** if your not adding them to a solid stable nucleus.
Leiter and Ventura wouldn’t have made a difference if not for Alfonzo, Ordonez, Reed and Olerud.
You have to have something there to add the free agent to.
Vinny – MORE importantly…
There is nothing about SPENDING MONEY on NOW players that hurts your chances of building those Minors!
IE: Our 1st round pick is protected this year…
That makes this the PERFECT TIME to go and buy a Type A FA as it will not take away our 1st Rounder!
Nothing about spending hurts your ability to build up the MiL!
In fact it probably HELPS that proccess because you are not forced to rush kids up to fill holes on the MLB Roster and can keep them where they can be trained and hone their ability!
The problem is not the Minors thats just subterfuge and EXCUSES for not spending money!
But not spending money does NOT help you build the MiL system unless you lose wholesale and get the first to 5th overall pick!
And if that happens it won’t matter HOW GREAT Sandy does in the draft because he will not be here to see how well he picked or gain any of the credit for those kids in much the SAME WAY Omar isn’t getting credit for his kids now!
That’s just not true.
There is a whole All Star GAME that can be culled from 2nd round draft choices and those 2nd round draft choices can often fetch something worthwhile during their stint in the minors if your so inclined.
It is a complete fallacy that one has to draft within the first five picks (or ten) to get a good player.
Complete and total fallacy.
And the idea that type A free agents are a sure thing is just laughable.
Vinny that’s the way t agee rolls and most people here i’m sure know it.
Nobody doubts that he does a lot of reading up on things but when he debates he’s not honest.
Vinny B is honest. You can agree or disagree with him but he’s honest.
t agee is not honest. He uses information. He spins his information.
The guy lives in his own world, has his own reasons for being unhappy with the Mets and uses whatever info he’s read up on to create a scenario that looks plausible if you back track and say what should have been done. He’s not honest at all.
It is just silly, unreal, and plain NOT FAIR to look back at everything the Mets have done over the last 25 years and say now if they would have done this than everything would have changed.
You still have to play the games on the field and if everybody was to think like t agee than hindsight would be an infinite loop because whatever NEW scenario you can create based on looking back and second guessing than you can second guess it AGAN and come up with something new. It would be never ending.
Absolutely wrong Tommycat,
It can affect If you if your competition is hiring better personnel. Sure Mets have to do what they have to do but if your competition does things that appear to improve them than it sure can effect them.
I think what Tommy meant was Theo going to any particular team doesn’t affect the Mets. As in, if he had stayed in Boston, his influence on the Mets would be the same as it is now.
nope because now he’s in the Central Division of the National League and his decisions affect the team that can beat the Mets in the Wild Card or playoffs.
He’s not in the AL East anymore
I really can’t make it any clearer than that and can’t expect nothing else from this guy than a snarky, sarcastic response
Actually, I like the Melo trade. He’s a legit shooter and young enough that the Knicks will still be able to count on him for a few more years. And they really didn’t give up a lot for him. But then again, basketball really isn’t my game.
Finally a Met fan with a brain.On the money Tommy2…
The Cubs are bleeding.
(Average per game – Total Attendance)
2008 – 40,743 – 3.3 million
2009 – 39,610 – 3.2 million
2010 – 37,814 – 3.1 million
2011 – 37,258 – 3.0 million
The payroll keeps climbing while revenues decline. They’ve lost 300,000 tickets per season from four years ago. That’s easily $50 mil in lost revenue annually. They used to sell out all 41,000 tickets for every game, not anymore. Epstein walks into a situation where all he can go is up.
Nester,
his presence along makes the fan base optimistic.. the cubs should be happy to have a 2x WS champion winning GM at their hands, and not only that, but he WANTS TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP for chicago
So now you’re a Cubs fan? Cool go find their blogs……..
Isn’t that what you said to some here about the Braves………
Not a double standard is it? Couldn’t be…………
unlike those fools, i make a valid point, they should be happy, unlike us mets fans… that is my point.. you don’t see me gushing about this or that player, or that prospect, neither i am saying how we should do things their way.. stop stalking me loser!!!
No one was ever gushing that wasa another one of your childish interpretations to fit your agenda. In other words the post above is clearly you double standards.
Stalk! Again don’t flatter yourself, stop with stupid remarks so I don’t have to educate you time and time again!
where you here when they were gushing??? no, i don’t remember you being here around those times, all you do is come in here and post back on anything me and bayonne or maniac post, i am starting to think you the dark side of either aggee or jesseP, who are the 2 biggest front runners this site have, you know nothing about baseball as all you do is wait for one of us to post a comment to reply back. stop stalking ok, all you want is attention, you’re nothing but a dou-che ok.
What are you talking about Alex?
What’s this about “gushing” over players other teams scouted, drafted, signed and developed that came up here and played well right off the bat that constitutes “gushing” over them.
It’s the overall philosophy of the organization I’m talking about.
Baseball America has rated ELEVEN Braves as among the top 20 in the league in which they play.
We have SIX. THREE of whom were acquired this year and while we’ve had some recent graduates of the farm so have the Braves and everyone else too.
If we had been sowing the seeds all along we should have plenty of guys in all levels of the minors on the way up. We don’t.
All teams have injuries and stagnation of top prospects but they have others that come on and take over. They spend their top draft choices on top talent, not past it’s shelf life talent or college relief pitchers and they make trades to acquire other teams top shelf minor leaguers rather than just looking around every year for “who can we get for these 13 spots on our 40 man roster.”
Even in the IFA arena we have just three guys the professional scouts, coaches and editors of Baseball America like enough to name as top 20 in their league and one of them was signed this year and that’s done purely on talent and ability, not performance.
The NYY have 5 IFA’s and 13 prospects total that made those lists. The Phillies traded away 5 guys that made those lists and have 9 more (and two others that clocked in at 21 and 22 and that’s drafting after us every year except 2007.
That’s how Milwaukee got Marcum and Greinke (not to mention Fielder, Weeks and Braun) That’s how Philly got Halliday and Oswalt, the Red Sox got Pedro, Beckett and Schilling but it’s in the adding of them to previously drafted, signed and developed players that makes the difference.
Not spending all your high draft choices on free agents who give you anywhere from a year and a half to three years, if they give you anything at all, and then back them with one dimensional 7th-13th rounders and wait for your IFA’s to develop which seemingly ours are very slow to do.
25% of guys who made the top 20 in their league came from the first round. 12.5 % came from the 2nd round. Exactly the picks we give away every year. 30% come from international free agency. Exactly the area where you think Minaya would have done his best work but we have three total in our entire system, two of them signed before 2011.
It’s not “gushing” over these players, it’s wanting us to get our fair share of them, and then some so we can stop picking 13 guys off the scrap heap every year.
second guesser, their owner is not willing to spend, so they are force to trade the good players for picks, other young players etc.. yet, they have SOOOOO MANY players they ended up in the same boat we did, missing the playoffs. freeman was ok, heyward a bust, once the spotlight was on kimbrel and venters started to choke, jones is old and done, NOBODY cares in atlanta, yet you who are a mets fans keep gushing over them and their prospects, didn’t they suck for more than 3 years in order to get these prospects!?!? they’ve gotten lucky finding value in some pllayers, extremely healthy at key spots. you keep talking s*** about draft picks we give away, wqould you rather have reyes and CJ wilson that some draft picks that may never work out? keep drinking the kool aid and then second guess later, because that is what you do, is guys like you and jesseP that has made rooting for a guy like nimmo and wheeler so hard to do, because to you they are more valuable than a guy like jason bay, who NOBODY here could’ve predicted would forget how to hit, i’ve said this many times, minaya was way in over his head as a GM, but sandy does the same mistakes and he gets a pass.. i will see how you start second guessing sandy soon for his atrocious picks and trades as you did omar AFTER THE FACT!!!
The only similar mistake Alderson made to what Minaya did was the Igarshi/Carasco signings.
And I’ve been pointing out the mistakes made in free agency and ill conceived short sighted trades from the farm long before Minaya got here. Going all the way back to Harazin and the Coleman, Bonilla signings.
You just claim I’m second guessing because you have no defense of giving up draft pick after draft pick.
I’m just pointing out players we could have had, and had for a long time if we had kept our picks. Players that could have been helping us for a long time and then helped us even more by leaving behind a couple of draft choices if they went free agent as opposed to riding off into the sunset or being traded for “salary relief.”
For instance Brian McCann could have been selected with the draft choice that Steve Phillips spent on David Weathers. He was trying to address the bullpen AFTER the fact and that is a big reason we have no catcher to this day. Every year we have to go out and “see who we can get.”
It’s a philosophy that keeps us in need and prevents us from ever being able to fill all of our holes adequately or better at the same time.
As soon as you plug one another two sprout up, or you think you’ve plugged one but your 40 year old LFer springs a leak, so you try a rookie infielder with 3 minor league games in the OF, proclaim yourself all set and the next thing you know you have Jason Bay clogging up the roster and payroll.
Now LF has cost you a #1 pick and a #2 pick and still sucks and you still need a catcher and an entire bullpen and you need a starting pitcher and on and on and on.
Same old song and dance through three different Met GM’s. Harazin, Phillips and Minaya.
same owner though across those guys.
Just because you don’t remember me being here, doesn’t mean I wasn’t. I have been around MMO since you were banned the first time.
Is that like “I don’t want to hear about stats, I know what I saw”.
I know nothing about baseball? Coming from you? That’s a joke…….
I post in reply to stupid comments, if that includes what you post, Bayonne or maniac or even Metsie, so be it. Sick of your hypocrisy and ignorance.
you need attention, there’s just no other reason i can come with regarding your stalkarish behavior.. stupid comments?? really??
What he means Joe is that he feels threatend that there is someone “new” at MMO because his “core” as he calls it don’t tolerate any dissenting opinion around here.
They like the results we have experienced over the last couple of decades. Their satisfied with off season moves like Vince Coleman, Jeremy Burnitz, Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar, Scott Schowenweiss, Roger Cedeno, David Weathers, Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, Moises Alou, Jason Bay, Luis Castillo and then filling in behind them with 5th-13th rounders and they are as angry as ever that some additional thought is going to be put into off season moves for a change.
That’s why Alex is on high alert that someone “new” stepped into the room.
Beyond stupid actually.
What alex said isn’t a double standard. He’s commenting on the event of the day and complimenting the move.
That’s a big difference from a guy like t agee who has bombarded this board all season long with pro Braves rants. Actually first it was the Giants, then they fell out of it so he turned more to the Braves and basically gushed over them almost every day for the rest of the season. The recently he turned to the Rangers when the Braves were eliminated. That’s the difference – one day vs. an entire season of gushing over another team and every single day posting the comments with the same 100 names every day slamming the Mets for their moves the last 25 years.
Now THAT’s second guessing and being a front runner, not a one day comment.
I don’t recall saying anything about the Rangers this year. Your good at looking up prior posts, care to find a couple? While your at it you can look up your “Mike Jacobs could hit 30 for us this year” (2010) or your “why couldn’t Jason Bay hit 30 Hr’s this year” (2011) posts.
We all realize that you can’t understand backing an opinion with a fact but many people here can. When I discuss different teams drafting philosophies and differencies in development I also include some facts to back up my opinions. Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Bumgarner back my philosophy better than Redding, Livan, Perez, Brian lawrence or Chan Ho Park. So do Jurjens, Hanson, Beachy, Delgado, Teheran, Minor, Venters and Kimbrel.
We already know you want to play fantasy baseball every off season and no one here cares what you do in your own free time, we just don’t want our GM doing the same thing.
After all that’s what’s led to 12 losing seasons in the last 21 years.
Glad to. You hopped from one bandwagon to the next much quicker than John Wayne ever could in an old western:
t agee says:
October 23, 2010 at 10:08 am
One thing about the Rangers is that there going to be around for quite a while. Daniels has built them to last even though in some ways he’s gotten a few guys on their last legs (Molina Vlad) They have 19 league all stars in their minor league system including a RHP and a LHP that are currently dominating in both AA and AAA. That’s 4 highly rated young pitching prospects to add to what they already have. Thank God Atlanta made that trade or we would have been facing A braves team with Andrus feliz Salty plus. Sometimes the best trade…
You are the most ardent and biggest example of a FRONT RUNNER this side of Dick Vitale I have ever seen in my life.
And you are right again. I have said why Jason Bay couldn’t hit 30 HRs for us before the season. I most certainly said that – Why couldn’t Jason Bay hit 30 HRs?
Yep, you’re right. So?
So now, AFTER THE FACT – AFTER THE SEASON….now you’re gonna make fun of the fact that I asked why Jason Bay couldn’t hit 30 HRs this year..before the season started?
You wait for many season to finish before looking back and saying NOW what the GMs should have done.
And now you make fun of me because I asked before the season why Jason Bay couldn’t hit 30 HRs this year. Um….right. Good thing he didn’t because NOW YOU KNOW he didn’t.
Your need to enjoy being miserable while assessing all situations well after they’ve occurred is the worst case of this I’ve ever seen. In other words you fit the profile of a lonely finger pointer who blames everybody else for every misfortune that has ever happened to him instead of looking in the mirror.
The grass is always greener on the other side, huh?
And I’ll tell you right now in plain english – what is wrong with me thinking that Mike Jacobs could have returned to form and hit 30 HRs at the time the Mets signed him. I noticed in this post you’re saying I said that Jason Bay could have hit 30 HRs and you are absolutely right. That is way different from your last soda spit when you claimed I said Mike Jacobs WOULD hit 30 HRs. Now that’s different.
Not only are you a FRONTRUNNER but add BACKTRACKER to the list of adjectives to describe you. You are a frontrunning backtracker.
LOL, buffoon states that I bomb barded the board all this season about the Giants, then hopped to the Braves and after they were eliminated started on about the Rangers……and to prove this he pulls out something I wrote a year ago.
LOL
What a buffoon.
Even the scant few times he supports an opinion with a fact he winds up proving himself wrong.
And what’s that about a 2nd guess when I said no way Bay hits anywhere near 30 Hr’s? Huh? When I said I give him 12-18 absolute tops. Yeah OK.
And again, he never attempts to engage in a civilized discussion about what anyone writes, he just complains that they did write.
As if that were against some sort of internet rules or something.
And just exactly what is it in the quote you provided that I wrote about the Rangers A YEAR AGO is it that you dispute?
Mutton head strikes again.
2nd guessing. You mean like saying who Sandy could’ve or should’ve signed last offseason.Go back to cleaning toilets.
jose diaz, you came here about a week ago and just like that other troll/stalker joe smith you’re defending these losers w/o knwoing what was said here a year from the date. aggee and jesseP were drooling about the braves porspects and how the org is run, it got so disgusting it wasn’t even funny, THEN right after the braves CHOKE JOB they were no where to be around, as if they were actually hurt they braves didn’t make the playoffs, please, before you and the other troll defend someone, you might wanna check what they did first ok.
People that don’t agree with you are not stalkers, they are posting what really is going on.
You are disgusting it’s not even funny. You make up crap because you don’t understand how to read. All the “others’ have tried numerous times to explain their side civilly like grown ups and you twist what they say and come up with crazy conclusions to fit your agenda.
Stop telling people to check what was said, they read it and understand it, they are smarter then you and your ignorant ways.
again, is funny how YOU are the only one who seem to have a problem with everything i post, again, when you see it move on.. stop stalking me man.. and btw, civily side?? i’ve been called all sorts of name here, send to learn english, to open up a bodega with reyes and minaya, you name it, i am a big boy i can take it… what i don’t get is how YOU have started your own vendetta against me, bayonne and maniac.. if you need attention this is as much as you’ll get
“they are posting what really is going on.”
No they are posting what they PERCIEVE is going on…
Unfortunatly these same folks aren’t very perceptive because they believed the season was over on July 28th becuase we were 7.5 games out of the wild card with NO CHANCE (percieved POV) to catch the Braves with Two months to go, only to see the Cardinal come back from 8.5 games out on Sept 1st! (REALITY not PERCEPTION!)
Alex,
The primary desire of the so called “core” as you call it, is that all you guys just want the Met’s GM to play fantasy baseball every year to provide yourselves with something to talk about.
“Oh should we make this move or should we make that move, Wait a second I think we should make this other move. No hold on we should just do this,” and on and on and on again. That’s never lead to a well conceived team. That approach has been tried every year around here for two decades.
What do you consider the reason for us winning 90 or more games only 3 times in the last 21 years?
We had no problem losing 90 or more, we accomplished that 6 times. We lost more than we won 12 times in the last 21 years WITH the largest payroll in the National League.
Monkeyball doesn’t work. Fantasy baseball is for office girls. Wake up. Smell the coffee.
The Braves cranking out players from their farm left and right have won 90 or more games 13 times in the last 21 years and only once lost 90 games.
Now which teams results would you prefer? Winning 90 or more 13 times or 3 times every two decades?
The difference is that the Braves don’t take that monkeyball approach to their entire roster. They’re not sitting around every winter saying to themselves “I wonder who we can get for these 13 spots on our 40 man roster?”
Their scouts even identify guys in the minors for them to trade for, Like they did with Smoltz. Even up for Doyle Alexandre even though Smoltz had had only one (pretty bad) season in A ball as a pro. Kind of like we did with Beltran this year and you knock Wheeler every chance you get.
We are never going to win 90+ games a year consistently until we get off the monkeyball train. It’s a complete deadend.
i knock wheeler??? bro, the deal was done, ok, but to put wheeler as if he was some sorts of godsend or something is beyond me..
“The primary desire of the so called “core” as you call it, is that all you guys just want the Met’s GM to play fantasy baseball every year to provide yourselves with something to talk about.”
And the primary focus of the ones who hate them is to implement ‘THE BOOK” because everyone has caught onto how MISERABLY it failed in Oakland and they need a new kind of Kick to refresh the KMART RElIGION!
As Omar was showing you CAN spend AND BUILD the Minors at the same time!
He bought some guys who within a year got us to the playoffs, Didn’t have to trade away any kids that were worth anything in the proccess, And now all those kids he SAVED by not trading away to compete have now come up and helped us to a .593 WinPct in June!
And thats before Harvey, Familia, Havens, and Flores even got here!
I have no interest in implementing moneyball here. I don’t think moneyball has any relevancy in NY whatsoever.
In Oakland? Sure, why not but what won in Oakland is Mulder, Zito and Hudson. Three young pitchers scouted, drafted, signed and developed by the A’s. Two first rounders (#9 and #2) and a 6th rounder.
Also Miguel Tejada (a first rate IFA), Eric Chavez (another first rounder), Dye, Ellis, Koch and Bradford.
Sure they were intelligently filled in behind with inexpensive players for the most part in their late 20′s but without the top guys, the moneyballers wouldn’t have sniffed 3rd place.
Oakland’s success was through the farm. If they had duplicated that success with their famed 2002 moneyball draft they wouldn’t have fallen on hard times.
In fact the whole moneyball story really disparages the very scouts that found all those players. Beane took over the draft in 2002 and readily admits that the scouts ran the show until then and he hasn’t come close to duplicating their success and his idea about drafting college players is just ludicrous.
He likes the college player because they have a better bust rate saying nothing about the fact that HS players have a far higher production rate.
Left unsaid is that the best HS players never get to be college players because someone pays them to come out early and their the one’s putting up the big numbers. It’s also harder from a scouting perspective to judge 18 year olds and his work in the IFA arena has been abysmal and that is one area where he should have been concentrating a lot of his focus.
Nowadays they have 4 top prospects, 3 of them from the early first round, where your chances of hitting are better, not guaranteed but still better.
I give him credit where he’s earned it but I have no interest in bring his philosophy over here and the whole idea that he dumped a whole bunch of trade secrets is ridiculous. The NYY have only signed guys with good OB and neutral platoon splits since the mid 90′s.
Tag I know you want to REBUILD via the draft…
I don’t think ANYONE has a problem doing that in and of itself!
Where the controversy lay is in the LIE!
That you need to trade off the players you have found that ARE good to populate those Minors,
That you can NOT spend and BUILD the MiL at the same time (AS Omar was TRYING to do!)
Unless you are suggesting that competing for the playoffs will hurt your draft rank and therefore hurt your chances to get the GOOD players because you pick first in EACH round, There is nothing about what YOU want to do that would suggest NOT SPENDING is required to accomplish that goal!
Our 1st rounder is protected this year…
We CAN NOT LOSE IT!
Isn’t now the PERFECT time to buy where picks are protected and you can steal a good player for some of Wilpons Money so we don’t need to rush and ruin (another point you have made) in order to get people in their seats?
Metsie, it does make more sense than giving up a #1, and another thing that makes sense is to sign two type A’s in the same year like we did with Pedro and Beltran (giving up a #2 and #3) and then not signing a type A the following couple of years.
What would also make sense is picking up a couple of guys who project out to be type B free agents and buyout their options and let them go free agent and recoup those picks that we hand over.
Minaya did pick up a bunch of guys like this but he then resigned them and then also went FA (or tried to) every year. Twice he did get us extra picks. 2007 we got unlucky as Hernandez only got us a 2nd rounder (Cleveland protected) and Bradford 3rd rounder (Balt prot and they signed two that year) but we blew those picks on college relief pitchers and the two supp picks on another college reliever and a HS kid who basically just quit. 2008 we got real lucky Atlanta gave us two picks (Glavine) and consequently wound up with Holt and Havens. They haven’t panned out to date but it was still a good thought process. 2007 the thought process was quick results rather than top talent and losing the best pick of all (Alou) was a killer, especially since SF almost certainly doesn’t offer Alou arb. So if your getting value from the picks you keep and collecting a few extras and getting something out of them it’s fine.
The problem with FA now is that it’s a very limited pool of available players. There are hundreds of good/very good and great players selected in the 2nd round every year. If your farm is strong enough you don’t have any limitations on only going for the free agent, you can talk to anyone about everyone. True no #2 pick in A- or A+ is going to get you Felix Hernandez on his own but you do have to start somewhere.
No way I’m spending a #2 on the bullpen and I wouldn’t spend one on our rotation either because to do so would mean just dumping Pelfrey for nothing. I’m not wildly optimistic about Pelfrey but to toss him AND a #2 pick away for a non ACE starting pitcher doesn’t serve us well in the long term. Pelfrey has at times been pretty good for half a season. I’d like to give him every chance and trade him at the break and get something and keep our 2nd round draft choice too.
Santana, Dickey, Niese, Gee and Pelfrey is OK with Schwinden, McHugh, Familia in that order backing them up. Wilson is going to be in high demand and we would probably have to overwhelm him in order to get him. At 31 for 5 years it wouldn’t kill me to spend a #2 on him since he should be around for a while but I don’t see us on his preferred list.
For this year what I see as our best usage of that 2nd round pick is to keep it and replace a minor leaguer or two that we trade for a ready or close to ready catcher and spend whatever money is available on Reyes and the pen.
so now t agee is claiming that he was the first person here to get behind Ruben Tejada. Uh, huh.
That certainly does fit the t agee profile of being a front runner, bandwagon rider and looking back and THEN making assertions now.
That’s because I’m not the front runner you and your bo bo’s have tried to label me.
That’s done only to express dislike for what was written while at the same time avoiding the subject.
Instead of responding to what people write here you occasionally respond to something they didn’t write or more often just complain that they wrote anything or resort to childish names to avoid the topic altogether.
Like a weasel.
At the time it was what was needed to make the team competitive. And the picks we gave away were hardly top of draft picks!
But here is your problem…
We didn’t give up any picks for Betran OR Pedro!
Those teams got compensatory selections in the first but NOT from us!
We Actually took Pelfrey in the 1st that year!
the 2nd and 3rd rounder for Pedro and Beltran would appear to be WELL worth it if the goal was to compete FAST and then draft later when the field was much stronger!
Well we did give up picks for Pedro and Beltran but they were a 2nd and 3rd. We didn’t draft in those rounds.
I’m not really against that strategy and I think it was a good move for a lot of different reasons. What I am against is following that year with giving up a #1 the next year and the next year after and then another 1st rounder two years later followed by another 2nd rounder.
At some point you have to see the correlation between giving away so many draft choices and having so many “holes to fill.
The name is Joe Diaz not Jose and I’m not only here a week.I was here when the whole debate about BA and OB% was battled out ad nauseum earlier this year when Gary Cohen and Keith Hernandez said during a telecast that hitters take too many fat pitches in RBI situations because they are too concerned with OB%.Remember that thread back in late April?I used to be on here as another Joe.D but put my last name in so there’s no confusion with the other Joe.D.
I’ve seen you,Omar,Bayonne and Metsies posts for months and the stupidity behind them are unparalleled.
Joe Smith is 100% on the money with you guys.Go backand read your comments.You’re supposedly all Met fans but it sounds like you’re all rooting for Alderson to fail and already have come to the conclusion that he’s not trying to win.
I don’t know how you come to your conclusions about Alderson except what Joe Smith says to fit your agenda.
Neither of you guys have the intelligence to see what Alderson is trying to accomplish.A long period of winning.Years of sustained success.Why is that sohard for you guys to understand.He’s building the team from the ground up and if it takes a few down years then so be it.We are what we are and we can;t be fixed overnight.Deal with it or go root for the Yankees and you’ll get whatever free agent your little heart desires.
And Alex you’re full of sheet.I saw that post about Omar Fan,Minaya and Reyes opening a bodega together not you so stop lying.I believe it was the day everybody was saying what a pu$$ Reyes was for dropping a bunt and leaving the field and then Omar fan starting cursing people out.One guy said Omar why is it you curse people out for calling out Reyes yet you call Wright the same thing because he can’t get a hit with the game on the line and you never defend Wright, also with Minaya,he gets defensive.He said you must also be Dominican so all 3 of you should open a bodega.Your name was never mentioned in that so you’re prooving that you are full of sheeeeeeeeeeeeet.Go back and look at the and see if it was you or Omar fan you big liar.
Can I ask a silly question that I know I’ll regret based on what I expect will be a very ridiculous answer.
How come you’re all over Theo and his history of building a winner, but when it comes to Sandy Alderson’s prior success you (and some of your buddies here) are all quick to mention steroids in a way to negate any success Alderson has had?
How come players steroid use doesn’t count against Theo but counts against Alderson?
This should be good. I hope I don’t hear anything silly like Manny Ramirez didn’t have much to do with them winning or David Ortiz never took steroids.
Not mention going after Alderson for using sabermetrics but not Epstien
ok, fair enough. what’s your point?? after manny left he’s had WINNING TEAMS!!! can you name the last time sandy alderson has had a winning record as a GM?? theo hasn’t had 1 losing season, sandy has had 16 ofthem in 20 years as a GM. other than 4 years and 1 tainted championship, sandy hasn’t had any success, on the other hand, if you wanna use the steroid card, then theo has had 2 tainted Championships, but after 2007 his team avg 92 wins per season. sandy hasn’t had a winning season since 1991. 1991 FOR GOD’S SAKE!!!!!!
You do understand the situations were different, right?
situations were different?!?!? is that the NEW EXCUSE for sandy’s team being out of it by june in his last 7 season as a gm?!?
alex: Again, you (not just you) are altering facts just to fit your point of view. Are you telling me Sandy Alderson had absolutely nothing to do with building the Padres team that won 2 division titles in 05 and 06?
What do you think, he sat in his office behind closed doors and decided on which fan giveaways to have at the game as CEO? That a guy with a baseball GM background had 0 to do with their success? People are quick to praise Nolan Ryan, how is he different than Alderson other than $ invested in the team? Alderson was “in charge of baseball operations” If he gets no credit for the Padres success then you’re just a baffoon.
When Alderson was hired:
http://www.padresnation.com/coaches/sandyalderson/sandyaldersonnamedceo.html
“Asked to compare the challenges of building a contender in Oakland with trying to do the same in San Diego, he said: “We never drew 3 million people in Oakland. You’ve already done that here. The challenge is to not only achieve a certain level of excellence, but to maintain it.”
“Moores said one reason he hired Alderson is because he wasn’t happy with the franchise’s farm system and its baseball academy in the Dominican Republic.”
“That’s probably the first thing that came to mind when I heard his name,” said Towers, GM since Nov. 17, 1995. “It wasn’t fear of my position as much as, ‘Wow, somebody I always respected a great deal as a young GM I’m now going to have as a teammate.’ He’s somebody who can help take me to the next level. I look at it as a real positive.”
Manager Bruce Bochy is in the final year of his contract. Moores held up an extension for Bochy while finalizing the deal with Alderson.
Bochy’s fate will largely be decided by Alderson, Moores said.
“I expect to be consulted but I’m highly confident that from here on out, personnel decisions will be his,” the owner said.
2007 his team was BETTER than they were in 05 and 06 and they finished 3rd. Oh and 1992 the A’s won 96 games. He’s been to 4 LCS’s and 3 WS’s.
If Alderson had been the GM who constructed the team with the biggest September collapse in baseball history you would be VERY quick to point that out.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong and WRong again..
who do you wanna give credit in 2011? minaya or sandy alderson? because his apologist all said, well, minaya’s team is a mess, so he should get a pass in his first year, yes the padres made the playoffs in 2005/2006, but what about after that? don’t gimme that crap that they were better in 2007, that year they didn’t made the playoffs, then the next 2 years they avg 94 losses a season, including 99 in 2008, we’re talking sandy alderson the GM he’s had 7 straight losing seasons as a gm, going on his 8 the next year.
you wanna point out he’s been to how many LCS’s and WS? how many championship he’s won?? 1 that is what matters remember. keep drinking the koolaid, when he bolts in 2013 you’ll be the first one to write an article saying WHY WAS OK FOR HIM TO PASS THE TORCH.
What you fail to understand is that every situation isn’t the same everywhere in the country.
If a GM takes over the Yankees when Cashman’s contract runs out, his success or failure shouldn’t be compared to whoever takes over the Astros.
Alderson came into the Mets AT THE END of a failed plan to go all in for a World Series. He didn’t get here in 2005 when the Mets had 2 budding young superstars he could build around.
Theo took over the Red Sox after a 93 win season which included TWO 20 game winners, one of which was the greatest pitcher of his era. If you TRULY cannot see how that situation differs than the one Alderson walked into, then you just have blinders on. When he took over they were on the brink of “breaking the curse”
I think Theo can do a great job for Chicago but make no mistake, they are a mess right now. Outside of Barney & Castro they have no bright spots on offense for the long haul and outside of Matt Garza they don’t have much in terms of pitching.
This Cubs job is FAR AND AWAY a bigger challenge than his Red Sox gig was.
And the truth is, any logical Cubs fan isn’t looking at Theo as a guy who should bring them a WS ring in 2012. They are looking for him to fix the mistakes of the past and build them a winner. Exactly what a logical Mets fan is doing.
He didn’t get here in 2005 when the Mets had 2 budding young superstars he could build around.”
Wrong, he had like 3 budding superstars.. a team that with a few tweaks here and there, and help in the bullpen from the get go and health would’ve been at better team, hell, remember july?? after the krod trade the mets bullpen ended up blowing 13 full games, mets finished the season with 77 wins. you know the wild card winner finished with 90 wins??!?!? exactly what we could’ve had if krod was the closer, but instead he gave up midway, he had no intentions to win, but to save as much cash as possible, not to invest it on the team, but to save cash for the wilpons, which is what he was brought here to do.
What 3?
reyes, beltran, wright, krod, ike davis, niese.
players who were solid, not great but solid in murphy, duda, tejada, gee.
then guys who here and there played good in pagan, bay. pelfrey, thole..
dickey who was an ok pitcher for us as well.. he inherited a team with some good ballplayers… unlike minaya remember??
You seem to still have problems with vocabulary…and grammar…and logic…and so many many things.
Alex you said and I quote
“Wrong, he had like 3 budding superstars”
you either don’t know that a budding superstar is a young player not yet developed into a superstar or you’re just talking out of your you know what
Which is it?
Tell me right now as a GM you would rather take over
A) A team with aging talent and bad contracts and owners in possible financial trouble with no real big time prospects close to coming up
or
B) Owners looking to make a big impact and spend whatever it takes to do so, with two 22 year olds that the fan base has waited on who are now ready to try and take over the baseball city. Oh and you get Jae Seo!
Why would you NOT take Option B?
There isn’t a semi-intelligent to intelligent person in the world who would rather have taken the job Winter 2010 over 2004.
ok list the equivilent Omar inherited for the following:
Ike Davis
Niese
Murphy
Tejada
Harvey
Familia
Havens
Flores
Mejia
Can’t wait to hear this list!
jesseP,
would you rather take over a team that won 79 games the previous season, or a team that won 66 and 71 the 2 years previous?!?
alex: it’s not about wins and losses.
Would I rather take over the Mets after 07 or the Nationals in 2012?
The Nationals. Win totals don’t matter. It’s about the opportunity to sustain success, and the opportunity was GREATER for Omar over Alderson. They were hired for 2 very different tasks
Really Jessup why was it easier to maintain the success for Omar and not Sandy?
Please list reasons for that statement because just your saying it has never been all that reliable in the past!
Like when you said 7.5 games out was game over in July despite Cadrinals being 8.5 games out on Spet 1st and winning the Wildcard!
Like when you said Trading Beltran would not hurt this team (that was .519, .593 and .519 WinPct in May June and July and in the .300′s and .400 in the two months after he left!
SHow your basis for ASSUMING Minaya had a better chance to maintain success (which he did for 3 years!) than Alderson who has not even maintained the SUCCESS Omar’s guys was giving him because he traded it all away!
“Like when you said Trading Beltran would not hurt this team (that was .519, .593 and .519 WinPct in May June and July and in the .300′s and .400 in the two months after he left!”
Of course no Beltran had to have an affect on the team but let’s not forget the loss of Reyes and Murphy on the same day in August. Murphy for the rest of the season and Reyes for most of August.
Yes MNJ That hurt too!
But here is the way it went down…
Beltran traded July 28th (My Birthday)
29th we win
then 5 straight losses
One Win One Loss
and then Reyes and Murphy got hurt!
We went 2 and 6 right after Beltran was traded and before Reyes and Murphy got hurt.
Before the news about Beltran we had a been on a win streak!
They may have been the final nail but the first nail was trading beltran, and the trade of KRod bit us in the butt I don’t know HOW many times as well in August and Sept!
But the point I was most trying to make is that there are a few here who make WILD ASSUMPTIONS about reality, Call these assumptions as SOLID FACT, Call anyone who doesn’t agree CRAZY for not believing in the tripe only to have it be proved totally wrong in the end!
Like being 7.5 games out of the playoffs meant time to throw in the towel and tear down the team.
Cards didn’t do that when they were 10 games behind in the WC race. On Sept 1st they were FURTHER AWAY with LESS time to make up the dif and yet they still managed to overtake the braves for the Wildcard!
How about all the KIDS we didn’t have because of Omar who came in and helped make that .593 possible?
Now we are supposed to believe a whole new sets of “Facts” from the same source?
I’m just a little tired of the Smarmy “I KNOW IT ALL and if you don’t agree you must be NUTS” approach by some posters who said that only to be found DEAD WRONG later on!
Then skipping over it like it never happened and then making even MORE statements like he did!
Jessup wants to see Moneyball in NY!
I get it!
I just wish all these guys spent less time trying to sell everyone on their book!
IF Sandy implements it he had better win in the next two years or there will be one more team to add to the list of FAILURES who used Moneyball!
Because Sandy will be fired and that will be that!
And then he will be on the side the Omar guys are now!
Trying to defend a guy who PROBABLY was going to achieve the goal if only NY fans and media had given him the time to finish!
Well Metsie since it’s almost 4:00am in the morning and I am unable to sleep I will use this time to reply to your comment.
1st I can imagine it must of sucked when you found out Beltran was traded on your birthday. Having said that I didn’t have a problem with the trade though I know time will tell if indeed it pays off.
I can’t tell you what would of happened had Beltran & KRod never been traded but my feelings are the Mets never really showed enough to go against the decision of not trading away the players in question.
I know you already know that the Mets never got higher than 4 games above .500 and that came just before that 5 game losing streak you spoke of.
The Cardinals for comparison were 7 games above .500 the morning Beltran was traded going 35-24 the rest of the way and getting as high as 18 games above .500 at one point.
In the end the Mets FO had to make a tough call and they made it. As fans we have the luxury of not having to make those tough calls. Time will tell if it was a good call.
Yes MNJ, We were only 4 games above .500 at the time, Without Wright, Without Davis, Without Santana Even without Reyes for a good portion of July!
I’m not really trying to debate “What if” we didn’t trade Beltran or K-Rod!
That was Sandy’s decision and Wheeler and the kids we got for K-Rod will be weighed compared to what K-Rod and Beltran do and Sandy will be judged based on that.
This isn’t about Sandy at all!
It IS about those who come here and draw doomsday conclusions about the team in order to promote Moneyball Philosophy and sell it to the masses, Make wild claims in support, call anyone who disagrees with them crazy…
Then gets proven WRONG in every case they made because seasons are NOT over on July 28th (nor Sept 1st apparently) even when your 8.5 games out,
Our Minors are NOT barren of talent that came in and played .593 baseball in July, (I could go on and on here and include things like Kids get hurt less than Vets do but for brevity won’t)
And now these people (This isn’t just about Jessup mind you!) have decided that Sandy had SUCH HARDSHIP when taking over this team that had a shot if not for his own moves and lack of spending because of Omar (Owner of the guys who made us .593 WinPct!) being so awful that he left a far worse team than Omar started with!
You know a Fish if you make a good presentation of a FAKE piece of bait will take that bait once or twice…
But the SMART fish get wise to the fact it is fake and stop biting on the FAKE presentation that is presented as fact!
And my REAL point was to challenge Jessup to start posting some EVIDENCE to support his facts!
Show PROOF of who Omar had that made it so easy for him to sustain winning that was not possible until he went and bought Beltran, and Pedro, Had to supplement with Santana
I don’t think a SINGLE kid Omar inherited has made the team!
Sandy inherited at least 4 guys we know of with another 4 or 5 close to being here!
SO I want Jessup to show us a list of ALL the GREAT PROSPECTS Omar had to work with compared to akll the guys Snady had to start off this year and make him BACK UP this editorialized set of facts he is stating!
Cause at this point he is the Boy who cried wolf!
We may not have been a DOOMED franchise when Sandy took over as Jessup suggested!
But we sure are now aren’t we? Especially if Reyes is allowed to walk which is yet ANOTHER thing Jessup thinks we NEED to do to get better!
If a Doctor told you to cure the cold we have to asphyxiate you to get “BETTER” would you keep relying on his opinions?
WOLF!!!! WOLF!!!!! WOLF!!!!
Your entitled to your opinion of course but speaking for myself I don’t subscribe to the Doomed franchise mentality.
I try not to get into the whole who had it worse discussion because in the end it serves no purpose where I am concerned. They both had it bad hence why they were hired to begin with. Minaya had a worse farm system but had more financial flexibility and a young Reyes & Wright and Alderson had a better farm system but little financial flexibility.
I try to concern myself from this season forward. This season went more or less as I expected. Now I wait to see how the Reyes situation unfolds. It will be hopefully a more active off season considering how little was done last off season. Reyes a CF a Closer and revamping the pen highlighting the to-do list.
Well MNJ I have never accused you of being CLOSED Minded NOR a religionist in regards to Moneyball…
You commented on something I said and YOU deserve a reply because you are worth DISCUSSING things with!
The points I made were made for the sake of showing past credibility of Jessup and his past FACTS as he stated them.
The debate on what to do next and where this team is going is best served in my piece that I wrote REGARDING those principles Jessup (and others) want to see happen here in Metland and the points we are currently discussing just point out that his BELIEF in what is real is very much a fantasy when all is said and done!
Such as Omar had it better than Sandy did!
Alex: “Wrong, he had like 3 budding superstars”
What 3 Mets players would qualify as a “budding superstar”?
Please before you answer, do not say Reyes & Wright. Hopefully you understand the difference between inheriting Reyes & Wright prior to 2005 and inheriting them prior to 2011
read above you.. tell me sandy didn’t inherit a WAY MUCH BETTER TEAM THAN minaya did!?!?
He inherited a mediocre team with some high end talent that was already very expensive and not destined to last beyond his contract or high end talent about to get very expensive as well as some overall mediocre one dimensional and ill fitting talent that had to be sorted out and sifted through.
The Niese, Pelfry, Dickey trio he inherited is really mediocrity personafied. A young pitcher, an underwhelming under achiever and an older Knuckleballer vet who finally found his groove last year for the first time and an ace you owe 75M to on the shelf.
That’s not a rotation you dream about.
He also inherited big questions at 2B and catcher, bad contracts at SP, 2B and LF and a bullpen that had only 1 arm produced by the farm, and even that was spotty.
He also inherited three guys who ostensibly could have helped from the farm who were injured (Mejia, Kirk and Fern) and just one guy who could provide some credible AAA depth in Gee and had no one else to pull anywhere from like AA where Valdespin was the only guy who started there with even the slightest chance of being able to at most provide some emergency depth.
Overall the best thing that he inherited from a talent and affordability standpoint was Ike, and he got hurt right away.
And what great shakes did Omar inherit?
Wright and Reyes? What else? Because Sandy got them as well! Only because Omar decided to pay them big bucks to stay!
What about the 17 games the bullpen blew before the K-Rod trade.The 6 straight 6th inning or later leads they blew on a homestand in June.K-Rod was on the team when they were blowing lead after lead.This team made more mental mistakes between baserunning and defense than I have ever seen in 40 years of watching the Mets.And thats saying something if you’re old enough to have seen the late 70s early 80′s Mets.
Yeah and Sandy’s solution was to get rid of the ONE guy in the pen who actually wasn’t blowing games wholesale!
Because he wasn’t getting into them.
So your solution is to get rid of the guy you WANTED to get the ball to not the ones who failed to do that?
Hmmmm I wonder if you also think the Phillies should trade off Rollins Utley, Halladay, Lee Hamels and Polanco since the rest of the team held them back from moving up in the Playoffs too!
He got rid of the one guy because he felt and I agree that getting out from that ridiculous 17.5 million dollar 2012 option asworth it when the team wasn’t good enough like a St.Louis and Tampa to make the runs that they made.Duda pretty much gave the Mets what Beltran was.Did we miss K-Rod? Absolutely but even had we kept both players we were not overtaking the wildcard. Maybe this team cracks 500 with Tran and K-Rod.Was that worth issing out on a top 50 prospect when you know you can’t get compensation for Carlos.
Believe me,I hated seeing Carlos go.IMO he’s the best all around player we’ve ever had in his prime but getting a top pitching prospect was well worth it.
jesseP, you posted this article about sandy, at what moment he mentioned win or win now??? by the way, i am consitant on my criticism, i critique minaya for the horrible signs he did, if sandy does the same i will point it out as well, difference is, some ppl including you don’t wanna admit this guy had a terrible offseason, he’s not here to build a winner but here to save cash, while putting crap on the field and then bolt after 3 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/sports/baseball/for-all-the-talk-of-rebuilding-mets-alderson-wants-to-win-and-win-now.html?_r=1
Wow Alex! Not only do you not understand the difference between the team Minaya started out with and the team Alderson started out with, you actually think Alderson is not trying to build a winner,just save money.Truly sad state of mind.Truly sad that you don’t understand the philosophy of rebuilding an organization in dire straits from the ground up and it’a all because he didn’t add more bad contracts to the 2011 Roster that should’ve been blown up immediately after the 2008 season.
I honestly feel bad for you.You Omar and Bayonne.There’s always the Yankees you guys can root for.They’ll sign just about anybody and if it doesn’t work out they’ll just eat the contract and sign somebody else.Right up your alley.
Not only do you not understand the difference between the team Minaya started out with and the team Alderson started out with”
Hey Joe why not show us the difference?
List all the prospects Minaya had and compare them to the Prospect Omar left Sandy why don’t you!
You seem to think Minaya had a much better team to start with than Sandy did…
Why not show us examples instead of just saying someone else doesn’t understand the bull your trying to sell as truth!
Don’t limit to MiL either show the comparison of Starters for each as well! Lets be thorough in seeking the truth!
If you decline I will assume you realize you got caught telling a lie and can’t prove that crap you just said about the relative conditions Omar and Sandy started with!
First off you can’t even tell the difference between a mediocre team and a contending team
The lineup was not that of a contending team.Pretty much the same lineup in 2010 was one of the worst offenses in all of baseball and nobody except the man upstairs new Beltran would play half as many games as he did.
Minaya took over a bad team but did have two emerging superstars and an open checkbook.He added Beltran to Wright,Reyes,Floyd,Cameron and a still alot more productive Piazza than the Catchers we have now.He also added a hall of fame pitcher to go with another hall of fame pitcher Glavine albeit not the Atl version but still better than some of what we have now.Benson and Jae Seo which is a comparable rotation to what we have this year.
The 2004 lineup was much better 684R and 658 RBI add Beltran to that.The 2010 lineup scored 656R and 625 RBI.While the 2010 staff had a 3.70 ERA and the 2004 staff posted a 4.09 ERA the 2004 rotation added Pedro and the 2010 lost Johan.
Did Omar inherit a great farm? No,but no Met GM has ever inherited a great farm.Not even Al Harazin from Cashen.
I keep hearing from you guys about what a good job Omar did with the farm and IFA”S but I’ll ask you Metsie.Where are the impact players or impact pitchers that Omar drafted or signed internationally? Wheres the next Jose Reyes,the Next Edgardo Alfonzo.Wheres the next David Wright?
Omar Fan calls Minaya this great draft guru but he didn’t leave us with one star player in 6 years of signing IFA’s and 6 drafts.No Joey Votto’s,no young stud pitcher.A Matt Latos,god forbid a Matt Cain,hell even a Jair Jurrgens I’d settle for.No Daniel Hudson or Ian Kennedy,Doug Fister.He passed on some of these names for guys who are out of baseball.
What Sandy inherited was a few serviceable major leaguers with not a whole lot if upside.Dan Murphy,Duda,Lutz,Evans,Satin all nice hitters but are weak defensively and all figure to play 1B or LF.Even Havens is weak defensively and you put his name out there like he’s the next Chase Utley.
Hopefully Harvey and Familia become something so his 6 years here at least leave us with something to show for his efforts.Flores,Valdespin,Lagares again all seem to have some offensive upside but no position to call home.We have too many of these kids an not one phenom.
You also fail to mention the nice fat checks Omar was handed to offer free agents while Sandy is buried under his dead weight contracts.
And Metsie I said Omar took over a better situation not a better team.2010 had better pitching and thats it.But Sandy didn’t get to have Johan pitch for him.
Better situation as in he could spend whatever he needed and Sandy couldn’t.Thats a huge difference.If you can’t see that then I can’t help you.
Division Title is Success?
Omar won a Division Title didn’t he? He must also be a success!
Seems like the benchmark for success changes depending on your name being OMAR or NOT!
Well it’s not considered a success when Beane wins a Division (or 5)
Then it’s “He never won anything.”
money ball hasn’t won a championship is the term we use around here, is not that he hasn’t had success, yes he has. but when faced with the big boys, the A’s were bounced quickly from the playoffs, that’s all..
Well that’s a double standard when someone claims that one guy who won a Division (or 2 or 3 whatever) won something but yet someone who won 5 of them is said to have won nothing.
Complete and utter double standard.
It doesn’t really matter what Moneyball did or didn’t accomplish.It has nothing to do with the Mets.What Omar was trying to accomplish didn’t work either so hopefully we find a middle ground and accomplish a championship within the next few years with this GM.
That is what we all should be rooting for instead of all this retarded back and forth about Moneyball when it has nothing to do with the Mets.
Hey I never ytried to say winning a division title was a sign of success!
YOU guys have the double standard not me!
I said (and it’s in this thread somewhere!)
Get into the WS is a success!
When I say Oakland won nothing I don’t count playoff appearances of the comparators!
I use WS appearances and WS Wins!
Oakland ZERO WS Appearances (since Moneyball) Zero Wins!
Yankees 7 WS appearances (since 1995) 5 Wins!
I suppose this it where you say Playoffs correlate better to SUCCESS than WS since you can’t win the WS without first getting to the Playoffs right?
The PLAYOFFS CAUSED you to win the WS since you have to have done that before the WS Win could be recorded?
There is a fine example of killing two birds with ONE stone!
What defines a winning team?
Is it a team that finishes over .500?
A team that makes it to the playoffs?
A team that wins the WS?
I’d be pleased when the team is over .500 but unless they make the post season, I don’t consider that a winning team.
I’d be pleased when the team is over .500 but unless they make the post season, I don’t consider that a winning team”
and YOU talk about us posting stupid comments!!!
Thanks for proving me right again. More of your lack of reading comprehension or lack there ofm
You make this so easy! Hahahahahaha
Again?
You counting that time you said RedSox were a moneyball team because they Hired Bill James?
“What defines a winning team?”
GETTING TO a WS!
Making the Playoffs doesn’t cut it as 3.75 (nearly a quarter) of the league makes it to the playoffs!
And soon it will be an even 25% if and when they expand the playoffs!
Ya, but they have had a high payroll with low returns for a long time. The economy probably has more to do with their lost revenues than on the field performance or front office acquisitions.
I think Epstein will break that declining trend as soon as 2012 and it wont be because the economy turned around. It’s a storied franchise and they just got themselves a GM who revitalized another storied franchise before this one. As I said, Epstein has nowhere to go but up.
But donal the guy who thinks he knows it all dipsutes that. He says that Cub fans go no matter what. And you throw faxcts in the way of his baloney. He will cry or call you names and then cry when you properly put him in his place.
Oh, do I have a new fan? I hope my other stalkers don’t mind making room.
Also, the Cubs still stayed in the top 10 in attendance the last 4 years. Not bad for a team with a smaller park.
Attendance is down over all, but Cubs fans are still going at a rate usually only winning teams enjoy.
Cub fans have been taking it up the arse from their ownership for a hundred years.They’ll still show up no matter what.The ballpark’s charm is a draw alone.
Yeah which is why attendance is down right?
Dude don’t ever let facts get in the way of your argument I mean really!
Relative to other teams, the Cubs are actually doing well. They sold 90.5% of their seats this season, tying them with the Brewers. the 4 teams in front of them are Boston, Philly, SF and the Twins. 3 recent WS champs and a brand new ballpark.
They rank 9th over all in total attendance. Not bad for a park that only seats 41,000, 21st over all among MLB parks.
They still AVG 37000 fans a game for a crappy team.Do you think the Mets would avg 37K being as bad as the Cubs.They always draw.Its the ballpark and if you’ve ever been there you’d see why.
I am puzzled: wasn’t Theo competing for FAs as head honcho in Boston. FAs can move from league to league. The mets need not concern themselves with the cubs, when the phils and braves are there to worry about. They might prefer Theo signing someone the btaves or phils want.
Yeah thats kind of what I was thinking J!
It’s not like being in the NL can hurt the NL more than if your in the AL since you can sign players no matter what league your in!
Why would a GM going from the Sox to the Cubs affect the Mets? The Mets will deal with any other team in baseball for players they can afford. I doubt if the Mets will get in a bidding war for any particular players. It may make a deal happen between the Mets and Cubs more apt to happen but that’s about it.