10
2011
Big Money, Big Busts
An article by Craig Lerner
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I saw Mets fans bemoaning the Mets offseason a year ago for not going after one of these players; especially Crawford and Dunn.
7 Years, $142,000,000
After a 2010 season in which he produced a line that looked like this: .307/.356/.495 Crawford completely tanked in Boston this season. His OBP was a putrid .289 and his 65 runs scored were a career low. Even his defense took a hit. Don’t worry Theo, only six more years left.
4 Years, $56,000,000
After seven straight seasons of 38+ home tuns and 92+ RBIs, Dunn went cliff diving in Chicago. There’s always been a large contingent of Mets fans who have craved to see Dunn in a Mets uniform especially since Citi Field opened. How you like me now?
7 Years, $126,000,000
From a .920 OPS in 2010 to a .719 OPS in 2011 – Yikes! Can you imagine having to pay $18 million a year for this type of production for another six years? It Makes Omar look like a genius for signing Jason Bay.
Speaking of Bay (4 years, $66 million), he was among the three worst contracts of the 2009 offseason along with John Lackey (5 years, $82.5 million) and Chone Figgins (4 years, $36 million).
Hey Jose and Sandy, you reading this?
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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” Don’t worry Theo, only six years left.”
Dude, Theo’s going to the Cubs.
donal, how do you know theo epstein will go to the cubs?? did he tell you?!?
Ahem. Suck it.
The Rays lose Carl Crawford to the Red Sox and then beat them out for the Wild Card. Who saw that coming?
nester, what is your point?!?!
I didnt make a point, just an observation. Did you see that coming?
well, tampa bay is out of it, phillies and yankees are out of it.. the ratings are AWFUL.. i saw this coming so…
what do ratings have to do with anything?
That’s odd (or funny or just plain wrong), I just read the ratings were beyond expectations and that on the last game of the divisional series they set a record for the highest viewership ever.
I would bet that the ratings will be better having novelty teams in the series, instead of the yankees and phils meeting up.
Outside of their fans, who would want to watch that, when there is not team to root for, since there would not have been a loveable underdog trying to knock off the big bad favorite? Just 2 teams that people like to hate!
Nice job changing the subject. I CERTAINLY saw that one coming.
Yeah we took it right out of your playbook!
Wow, you really are bad at this.
Yeah sorry to say as bad as you think we are your 10 times worse!
“I know you are but what am I?” is really, really sad for a 49 year old adult. Or should I call you a manchild?
No what is sad is a 49 year old wasting his time on a 12 year old idiot who thinks he knows it all but hasn’t a hair on him other than maybe his head!
ewwwwww
I see…once you get called out, you go to the grade school “I know you are but what am I?” response.
What a child. How old are you…like 12 years old? Grow up.
I’m 49 how old are you Slappy?
Holy crap. 49 years old? You argue like you’re a child.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Please tell me you don’t have children…I’d feel really sorry for them.
I speak at the level commensurate with the intelligence of the poster and his ability to comprehend!
Which means I’m reply to Grover from sesame street so you might get it!
So how old are you again?
Tree?
Or Century minus years lived divided by 4?
Since you always take the suckers path to find info!
In all of the MLB you only found 3 Big Contracts above 14 Mil per that didn’t pan out?
Why did those guys get the money they did?
Werth got his mostly because of his Sabers and that .921 OPS
Crawford too with a .851 OPS
Dunn as well got his based on his .898 OPS and then when signed had a .928 OPS followed by a .892 OPS
He was hurt this year which you can not predict or avoid and since he is making the least of anyone on your list you can’t really say his signing is a bust. He already gave them two good years and could again if he stays healthy!
But how many guys making above 14 Mil were actually not worth it?
Not many! Certainly fewer busts than players who are giving value for what they are paid!
Huh? Gave who two good years??
Those are all deals signed in the last off season. You want some more that didn’t work out?
Jason Bay, AJ Burnette, Barry Zito, Alfonso Soriano, Vernon Wells, Ryan Howard’s extension kicks in next year after making $18 million per the last 3 years, Torii hunter is making $18 million next year
You want to go through Cots and see who is actually worth what they are making?
Easy to pick out the few that you say didn’t work out…And it looks impressive until you show the list of all those who DID pan out right next to them!
But you won’t because your the best at scale leaning and fact deflection than anyone else on this site!
So, by all means, show us all the ones making over $14 million a year that did pan out and we’ll put them next to each other.
When you get around to showing the 100s of times I asked you to prove what you have said I will comply!
But your just trying to make work for me to keep me busy so you can continue to post your crap unabated while I’m busy doing REAL research!
IGNORE ON!
Do it yourself! Take the list of the top 25 money makers and tell us which of those are busts!
For ONCE try and make a real comparison not you usual one sided propaganda!
I do back up my points. you choose to ignore them.
What real research? How many RBIs turn into runs scored? I’ll help you out: ALL OF THEM
I like how you make an assumption and declare it so with some kind of authority you don’t have, and as soon as someone asks you to verify it, it becomes their job to do your work.
Brilliant.
Yeah you have never once asnwered any challenge made to you!
Just changed the subject when you realized by answering the question you would have to make my point!
You have done it all year long!
Of course. Donal asks Metsie to back up his point and Metsie declines. YOU HAVE NO POINT. If you can’t be bothered to prove a point, then YOU HAVE NONE.
Yeah I proved it below…
Too bad reading is such a challenge!
And since when has making a point in a post been a habit of yours Taggler?
All you do is cheerlead!
Sort of like Donal does only you must be smarter because you say NOTHING of substance that could expose your lack of sense!
You proved what? That big contracts more often than not work out?
no, you really didn’t. You got so desperate to do so, you are holding up Barry Zito as an example f a bi contract that has worked out.
Seriously, Barry Zito.
Yep you showed 10 to my how many?
Wasn’t the point you were trying to make that paying big money is never worth it?
“Look at the three (and then 10) cherry picked contracts that didn’t work out out of the 100′s of contracts that exist?
Your a cherry picker which makes sense since you probably still have yours!
Oh I guess you found my list which is why you went silent trying to find more while your Piss Boy WHO distracts me!
Barry Zito.
Seriously, go look in a mirror, look your reflection in the eyes and say, “I tried to pass Barry Zito off as a good deal”
Note that you still are far short on your list of losers even if I LET you count Zito as a bad contract!
EPIC FAIL for Donal!
Your list still sucks. You’ve got Torii Hunter and Zambrano on there.
Mauer and Holliday have no hope of living up to the deals they got.
Young is above average for a 3B (and don’t try selling him as a 2B), but not worth $16 million. Especially not for each of the next 2 years. The only thing making that deal not a bust is that it is over after 2013.
So, of the 22 listed, we have 12 that are busts, 2 that are about to be and a few that are pretty good players getting paid way too much. (Young, Lee, we’ll throw Mariano Rivera in there)
I’ll give you Beltran, Halladay, Sabathia, Tex, Cabrera, Beckett and even throw in Alex Rodriguez.
Jeter, Tulo and Braun don’t really count since they were more about marketing than on field performance.
so, out of 25 contracts of over $14 million a year, 7 have worked out so far.
Oh, and John Lackey and Derek Lowe will both be making $15 million next year. So, that is now 27. I’ll throw in Josh Beckett as a good deal to make 8 out of 28.
Show data to prove they suck!
Compare them to all others who get paid that much!
Yeah but those guys only suck to you because they are on my list and no other reason!
OTHERWISE you would have included them in your originally!
donal, you sound just like aggee, second guessing like crazy.. you don’t like the closers, you don’t like solid players making too much money, well, what the he-ll do you like????
metsie, stop it too man, zito was a garbage as-s contract, at the time it seemes crazy, and since he was garbage looked even worst.
You need me to provide data that Lackey, Zito, Zambrano, Lowe, Wells, Hunter are all busts?
Fine, what metrics would you like?
DUH Nice try dummy…
Was Lackey and Lowe on my list?
Just another attempt to change the facts so that you can try make the useless point you can’t make and populate my list with guys I didn’t mention!
Sabathia
Tiexera
Mauer
Cabrera
Halladay
Beltran
Lee
Soriano
Zambrano
Hunter
Zito
Beckett
Holliday
Young
And Alex I was fully prepared to give him Zito as a suck…I don’t really NEED him on my list, Agree?
He’s only making 16Mil though which is not a lot for a Starting Pitcher He was hurt this year but for what he does he is at best overpaid by anout 5 or 6 Mil compared to comparable. And he also shows what I said regarding PAST PERFORMANCE.
He was a good pitcher in Oakland, but the situation in SF is different and it has hurt his numbers.
I was expanding the list. Around 30 players made over $14 million last year. So far, we’ve agreed to 7 deals that were worth it and I offered you #8.
That was the criteria, just because you can’t be bothered to do all the work doesn’t mean you need to talk down to those of us that do.
” And he also shows what I said regarding PAST PERFORMANCE.
He was a good pitcher in Oakland, but the situation in SF is different and it has hurt his numbers.”
That is the whole point. Paying guys for past performances is stupid. Especially as they pass 30.
“It is a sign of new management.”
Whose list mine or yours?
So which one were you going to post stats on your list of 7 or my 14 (13 if I give you Zito).
“Paying guys for past performances is stupid.”
Only if you are not going to put him in a similar situation than he got that performance.
Reyes made his numbers HERE at CITI!
So your paying for past performance with NO CHANGE in Situation for Reyes!
Could someone else bust out by signing Reyes? Sure but thats not our problem is it?
We will not be changing the situation he performed in!
Since the situation is the same so too should the performance!
Hahaha this is hilarious. I probably shouldn’t feed the troll but you are just way too tempting. The insanity on display here is one in a million.
Yep Who, the man without a name, without any facts and no points other than the one on his head to speak of!
roy halladay, cliff lee, miguel cabrera, ichiro to name a few
4. You named 4. The lists of busts so far is at 10.
10?????? which 10??? you name 4… also, CC sabathia, teixeira, holliday
I named 7 plus the 3 in the original post. That makes 10.
So, now you are up to 8. And that is assuming you are right about them being with their deals.
arod first time around, beltran, jose bautista and manny ramirez.. that’s 11
o, A-Rod now isn’t? Manny Ramirez? really?
Sabthia
Tiexera
Mauer
Cabrera
Halladay
Beltran
Lee
Soriano
Zambrano
Hunter
Zito
Beckett
Holliday
Young
Just to name a few from the top of the list!
Now this is where you try and say half those guys fit your list because they aren’t worth it to you mostly because they get paid not based on what they put up!
Soriano, Zambrano, Hunter, Zito, Young, and Mauer were all worth those deals?
Are you high? Did you just cut-n-paste the top salaries off some list?
mauher just signed last year and was hurt, before that, the man was $.. by the way, hunter has been a good player for the ngels
Notice Alex how I knew what he would say before he even said it?
“Now this is where you try and say half those guys fit your list because they aren’t worth it to you mostly because they get paid not based on what they put up!”
This guy is more predictable than an atomic clock!
metsie, is what he does… i pay no mind sometimes, he goes out of the topic more often than not.
I must have missed Zito’s not sucking as a Giant. My bad.
I notice you have yet to find any to add to your list….
So I guess we win!
Even if you take Zito off the list!
ROFLMAO!
Get cracking son you have homework to do!
Oh and for what Zito is getting paid compare that to others who get paid around the same!
THAT is what you seem to forget!
It’s not about how much he does for his team or even if he is the best ON his team!
It’s about what a comparable pitcher gets paid cause that is what determined his contract not just based on his status on the team!
Perhaps Zito is a reason why the rest of their pitchers do well as he mentors them!
Just as people forget how much Beltran and Santana contributed to the rest of the team ASIDE from just the numbers they put up!
“It’s about what a comparable pitcher gets paid cause that is what determined his contract not just based on his status on the team!”
So, because Oliver Perez and Derek Lowe got insane deals, that makes Zito’s insane deal justified?
I mean, from where I’m standing, that says the system is broken and you’re better off not participating in it.
“Perhaps Zito is a reason why the rest of their pitchers do well as he mentors them!
Just as people forget how much Beltran and Santana contributed to the rest of the team ASIDE from just the numbers they put up!”
Teams generally already have guys wearing uniforms not producing on the field. They’re called coaches.
Yes just as Minimum wage in this country is worth paying compared to what someone in china makes 10% of!
The MARKET sets the price!
Not the stats except in the case of comparable stats get comparable pay!
People in NY get paid more than most people in the country because the standard and cost of living is that much more expensive!
You know who gets paid the most in this country?
Folks in Hawaii!
Not because they are any better at what they do than someone in bangor maine but because it costs more to live there and the resources of people are limited!
There are not many people who can do what Zito does!
Look how many Pitchers there are that are not as good as him!
Since there are fewer Zito’s you have to pay more to get the limited good that exists!
Do you think Porsche’s are expensive because they cost more to build?
Or is it because they only make so many a year and if you want one you have to be willing to pay more than most for an item that does pretty much the same thing as a lexus does only looks nicer!
Still waiting for your offsetting list of failires Donal or did you think we took the CHANGE THE SUBJECT bait again and forgot?
Wow, what an awful post.
“Yes just as Minimum wage in this country is worth paying compared to what someone in china makes 10% of!
The MARKET sets the price!
Not the stats except in the case of comparable stats get comparable pay!
People in NY get paid more than most people in the country because the standard and cost of living is that much more expensive!
You know who gets paid the most in this country?
Folks in Hawaii!
Not because they are any better at what they do than someone in bangor maine but because it costs more to live there and the resources of people are limited!”
This has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
“There are not many people who can do what Zito does!
Look how many Pitchers there are that are not as good as him!”
Half the starters in MLB do as well or better.
“Since there are fewer Zito’s you have to pay more to get the limited good that exists!”
Yes, mediocre pitchers making ace money are a novelty. Forgive me if I don’t see the point to collecting such novelties.
“Do you think Porsche’s are expensive because they cost more to build?
Or is it because they only make so many a year and if you want one you have to be willing to pay more than most for an item that does pretty much the same thing as a lexus does only looks nicer!”
Porche’s are performance cars (Ceyenne being the exception) and Lexus is producing “affordable” luxury cars. Different classes.
So, you don’t know baseball, statistics, math, science, English, logic and now we can throw automotive industry on the list.
Oh you don’t like it when your own tactics are used against you?
NOW you know how the rest of us feel when dealing with your posts!
PROVE you point or stop badgering the ones who HAVE one for their proof all because you would prefer we run around in circles for you so we can’t make more statements that prove you wrong because we are too busy doing the bidding of an idiot!
Performance cars?
Can you drive a Porche faster than 65 MPH in NY State?
You buy it for what it is CAPABLE of doing yet can’t get wjhat you pay for because of the situation you put it in!
THATS why I mentioned it!
That is why buying a performance car here is stupid.
In that case maybe…
But there are no LAWS that say you can’t get the performance from the Expensive Player in the MLB!
They do not limit how MUCH of what you pay him he can give you…
ONLY THE GM can make the situations where that player is limited to giving you all he can do!
This is why you fail!
These players are the PERFORMANCE CARS without SPEED LIMITS!
The only limits to what they can do is based on the Situation the GM put them in!
A High RBI guy with no one on base will not maintain his High RBI!
A High OBP guy who does not face the same crappy pitching will not maintain the OBP!
A great Winning Pitcher who was great because he had great defense and good hitters will not maintain on a bad fielding team who doesn’t score runs!
Jason Werth declined more to do with the fact he didn’t have Utley Howard Rollins and Polanco in the lineup more than anything to do with his ability!
He was signed and paid based off numbers from a situation the GM in Washington failed to provide!
But you just want to skew it about MONEY because you are so desperate to make moneyball work despite all it’s failures since 1995!
Right…because injuries don’t make a contract a bad one. Gotcha.
Sooooooo biased.
“Right…because injuries don’t make a contract a bad one. Gotcha.”
Ah Ok then I guess you think Chris Young was a HORRIBLE signing!
And Sandy should be just as much at fault for not having a backup plan as Omar was when his guys got hurt!
And don’t tell me that getting paid what Young got on a per game basis is better than what Beltran got on his per game basis in 2010!
The Chris Young signing wasn’t the greatest signing but guess what? It’s what you call a low risk/medium reward signing. He only was guaranteed 1.1 million dollars, chump change for a major league team. Joe Mauer was guaranteed 8 years/184 million and made 23 million to put up a 1.7 WAR in 2011.
You seem to have trouble determining the difference between different numbers. Let me help you…1.1 million is a LOT less than 23 million. 1.1 million compared to the Mets 140 million dollar payroll is almost nothing. 23 million compared to the Twins 113 million dollar payroll is significantly more. You can thank me later for the math lesson.
“The Chris Young signing wasn’t the greatest signing but guess what? It’s what you call a low risk/medium reward signing”
what was the medium reward 4 games?
How much did he make per game played compared to Crawford?
Medium Reward!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh you don’t understand projections…that’s a shame. At the time of the signing, it was THOUGHT to be low risk/medium reward. It ended up being around low risk/no reward.
Again, how is that a bad thing? THERE WAS NO RISK IN MAKING THAT MOVE. NOTHING BAD HAPPENED.
Projections? You mean GUESSES? Care to make one?
I have FACTS! Don’t need to GUESS!
Chris Young earned about 275K per game played and played in 4 games! He was 1-0!
Crawford got $114,285 per game and played 130 games!
Project that slappy in you MEDIUM REWARD spreadsheet!
Umm nice that you have facts but you don’t seem to realize that hindsight is always 20/20. Doesn’t matter what the facts say now…back in January 2011, the projection was that he was a potential low risk/medium reward signing if all went well. It didn’t, so oh well.
At least we got 4 starts out of Young this season. Remember how Omar Minaya wasted money over a million on an injured Kelvim Escobar in 2010? He didn’t even throw a pitch for the Mets and had thrown all of 5 innings in the majors since 2007. Yeah, I’m sure you LOVED that signing. Terrible.
LOL You had hindsight and STILL couldn’t figure out that Young cost more per game than Crawford did and yet you STILL suggested he was a Medium reward at low cost!
With Math and calculation skills like that it’s no wonder you always have the wrong answer!
That is when you bother to actually come up with one!
IGNORE ON!
Welcome to the YOUR as dumb as Donal club and not worth replying to. Beside I;m sure you have homework to do or a cat to abuse!
Trololololololol
Take the pacifier out of your mouth before you try to speak!
Yes they were!
Have data to show they weren’t post it!
Funny thing is after only one year you seem to think such a SMALL SAMPLE is enough to say the deals you mentioned are busts!
What if Crawford and Werth win the batting championship next year?
Huh Mr SMALL SAMPLES?
So, you’re list works if we assume players get better as they get further into their 30s?
Is that it?
Can you prove they do not get better?
Or is this the immature exhuberance of a kid who thinks only the young can succeed?
My guess it’s that more than any proof that being over 30 means you will suck!
You have yet to prove that age has any bearing on performance!
Kids get hurt just as often as Older vets do!
It isn’t until they hit 35 that the decline starts and that corresponds to the 3 or 4 years the kids need to reach their prime!
But you won’t pay them once they get there!
You want a team with the average age of 25!
See the Pirates tell me how good it works for them!
You’re full of crap. You make a bunch of wild assertions (players don’t decline until 35) and then ask me to prove a negative.
“You make a bunch of wild assertions ”
You talking about yourself again?
Either prove what you said or go away!
There are more kids who leave baseball (or never make it!) for NOT performing and injury than leave due to age,lack of performance and injury!
nearly half of all Rookies FAIL while only 11% of guys retire each year due to Age/Injury or lack of performance!
Most rookies don’t get their debut until the age of 25 or 26. Most Vets don’t start declining until 35 and 36. Good players retire later than that!
The average retirement age for a baseball player is 32! That is drawn down by all the kids who play a few years and fail leaving the game!
So the failure rate is about equal to kids who NEVER WERE compared to players who WERE and lost something due to age!
So, nothing to back up what you say.
I posted the statistics which is a hell of a lot more than what you have given as proof!
I think he was trying to just look at the most recent.
Remember this discussion we had?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/05/100-million-men-a-look-back.html
Yep fail to see the relevance here though, We mostly talked about what an AGENT can do to force a team to sign which I said was NIL…
Market sets the price, The Agent TRIES to set the Market but he only succeeds if the Markey complies with that…
What are you getting at?
Very long deals for guys already into their 30s do have a tendancy to bite you in the butt.
5 years to a peaking 28 YO? Sure. 6 years to a 32 YO? Ah, maybe not.
not sure when to count it, but odds are Howard is going to join this list with his 5/125 that kicks in next season!
Crawford and Werth did not get contracts solely because of any saber stat. They got it the old fashioned way, for being “run producers”.
And all stats like OPS really do (and I don’t even think that is a saber stat, just a derived static # like BA or OBP) is “prove” what you see (who good hitters are).
The trick of course being a GM is seeing the future. Anyone with internet access can tell you what a guy did last year, but it is an artform betting the payroll (and your job) on what a guy will do over the life of a deal. And no GM is making that call just looking at a saber stat.
“They got it the old fashioned way, for being “run producers”.”
Well Any we are led to believe that OPS is directly correlated to RS aren’t we?
Isn’t that run production?
(You already know my feeling on that!)
I love how when something good happens it’s because “I saw it with my EYEZ man!” but when something bad happens it’s because “They used teh sabers stats and they’re so stoopid!”
Yup…that’s not a biased approach at all. Keep living in dream world, Metsie.
Yep because they don’t play on paper!
They play on grass which is where you need to go to see what the player actually does!
Tell me how many of your Saber based teams got rid of their Scouting staff?
Yeah thats what I thought!
What are you talking about?!?! No saber based teams got rid of their scouting staffs. You don’t seem to understand that saber and scouting are of EQUAL IMPORTANCE and that’s how just about every team in baseball treats it.
Again, you’re pretty ridiculous to say that all good things are because of scouting and all bad things are because of sabermetrics. That’s such a childish, biased view of things that you have no idea about.
all sabermetrics attempts to do is quantify gut feelings about what attributes lead to the biggest positive outcome (runs, wins, outs, whatever it is measuring).
And that is just so scouts/GMs can then go find the players best fit the profile. Through scouting and evaluation.
and even there, it just identifies a pool of possible options. the evaluation side (heart/guts/attitude/makeup/clutch/etc.) is still there to whittle down the pool to the guys you want to go after.
No different than looking at BA, HRs, RBIs, etc. All that does is tell you guys that did well in a certain catagory. Not which guy you want to go out and sign.
….or make you lose site of what you should have done in the first place.
You’re gonna sit there and say you can’t sign a guy based on the traditional stats of the last 160 years?
That is so wrong a statement i wouldn’t know where to begin.
Sabermetrics = dont trust your own judgement.
“You’re gonna sit there and say you can’t sign a guy based on the traditional stats of the last 160 years?”
Ya, pretty much. Baseball is in constant states of change. Every part of it has undergone some sort of progress, why should statistics be any different?
LOL This is classic!
So if a guy has 70 HRs (roid free) but an OBP of .200 you will pass on him!
In favor of the guy who gets hit by a pitch more!
find me a guy with 70 HR and a .200 OBP in a year.
But I thought you like batting average…if they had a .200 OBP, they’d almost surely have a batting average below .200, making them in your frame of mind, a bad player.
Besides, that’s a completely ridiculous scenario…in order to hit 70 home runs with a .200 on base percentage, that player would have to accrue at the least 350 plate appearances in a season and there’s no way that that awful player would get that many at bats.
You don’t seem to understand math…that’s quite a shame.
The guy who ducks out on his homewoprk is trying to assign me some?
Get Bent!
And No Who you need tio up the B Vitamins to improve that bad memory of yours, either that or you have never really read anything I said and just puke whatever comes to mind at the time which I have to say isn’t much!
Mostly because of that mind of yours!
I said BA makes OBP Irrelevant since BA tells me how a guy HITS as opposed to getting hit by a baseball or allowed a base by the pitcher and his OBP will ALWAYS be above his BA unless he is scoring a ton of runs via Sac Fly which is just as good as getting a hit in relation to scoring runs! In fact BETTER because not all hits produce and RS.
But I wouldn’t expect high minded concepts like that to penetrate your thick skull!
Again…you DON’T UNDERSTAND MATH.
OBP=Hits+BB+HBP/AB+BB+HBP+SF. (The slash equals divided by, in case you’re unsure).
So let’s fill in the math here. If this player’s OBP is .200, that means that the top part of the fraction (the numerator) would have to equal at the very least 70, if he’s going to hit 70 home runs (that would mean 70 home runs/hits and no walks, no HBP). In order to equal .200, the bottom number (the denominator) would have to equal 350, so that would mean 350 at bats, 0 walks, 0 HBP, 0 SF.
That means not only would his OBP be .200, but his batting average would ALSO HAVE TO be .200 because he would have 70 hits in 350 at bats. OBP and BA both use the same Hits and At Bats. DUH!!!!
Did you fail math in elementary school last year? Because you don’t seem to understand how formulas work and how OBP or Batting Average are calculated. How can you rail against something that you don’t understand?
No you THINK I don’t know Math I know full well how to calculate OBP!
You know what BB and HBP stand for in that equation?
BB is something a Pitchers DOES NOT accomplish!
Not an accomplishment of the batter! It incluudes Intentional walks which require no batting skill whatsoever!
Neither does it require any SKILL to get beaned!
You COUNT the SF in the number you DIVIDE by but give none of the credit to the player who actually scored a run beause he hit one!
And here is another thing Math boy you may not know…
You could just use PA instead of all that extra math to come up with the number to divide by!
Did you know that or are we back to calculating RBI by counting all runs scored and removing the added bits that were not recorded as an RBI!
You really are the only poster here who can give Donal a run for his money on Dumbest poster on Metsmerized!
Hey bud…not my fault that your little scenario is nearly MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE and you didn’t even realize it because you don’t understand how formulas work.
Nice job changing the subject, by the way. Nobody’s talking about if it takes skill to walk or get hit by a pitch. We’re talking about your ridiculous scenario, in which for a player to have 70 home runs and a .200 on base percentage, like YOU SUGGESTED, they’d have to have at least 70 hits (because hits are home runs) and they’d have to have at least 350 plate appearances to get a .200 on base percentage.
#MathFail
*because home runs are hits. My mistake.
Your RBI=Runs post was hilariously terrible, by the way. I mean DUH! Who woulda thunk it? Why do RBI correlate most to runs? THEY’RE THE SAME THING!
Are you Einstein or a wizard or something?
Yep it was so terrible that not one post of yours even showed one piece of FORMULA to disprove it!
YOU COULD NOT DO IT!
If you can go pst it now and I’ll give you a Math Lesson AGAIN!
I feel so bad that you really don’t understand how math works. The thing you suggested is impossible, yet your skull is so thick, you can’t even realize it.
What a shame. I guess I’ll have to blame the schools.
And I feel really bad for you that you think you do especially since you haven’t used any all day in this thread but I did when I posted the Price per game of Young vs Crawford!
Nope not really…
If used at all it is as a tiebreaker for other evals that seem similar.
What do you think SLG actually tells you?
Doesn’t tell you about Power Hitting as many believe because Reyes is not a power Hitter yet he has a high SLG because iof his Speed getting him triples…
Again whats the point here?
Metsie, do you look at SLG Percentage?
Do you make decisions on your every day life on what you know to be true 160 years ago, or even 10 years ago, or even a year ago.
Evolution is part of every aspect of life, including to Baseball.
Baseball used to have a separate leagues depending on race too.
Should every thing about baseball today, be based on 162 years ago?
Do you ignore all wisdom gleaned from history?
Or just say lets look at it different, because we can?
Ok this moneyball theory has only been around since 1995…
How many WS has it won to say it is successful?
Who has been the most prolific WS winner in that time period?
Moneyballers or the Extreme opposite Yankees?
You say you learned something but you haven;’t learned anything just ASSUME you found gold!
And in the 16 years since Moneyball was invented it hasn’t once won a WS!
“How many WS has it won to say it is successful?
Who has been the most prolific WS winner in that time period?”
You seem to forget about the Boston Red Sox, who adopted the moneyball approach and won two world series with it.
You think the Red Sox are a Moneyball team?
Better re-read the book pal!
Reading Comprehension is just a theory with you isn’t it?
Who was the team that signed Crawford again?
That was Moneyball to you?
Really?
SAY NO MORE!!!!!!!
ROFLMAO!
Um HELLO…Theo Epstein was hired the season AFTER Moneyball was written and they didn’t win a World Series until 2004 (the book’s contents took place during the 2002 season). You should check your facts.
I suggest you read this article: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6241541/
And in case you decide to cover your ears and ignore what I posted, here’s a pertinent quote that I happened to READ in this article:
“Epstein is a disciple of the Billy Beane-Oakland A’s-’Moneyball’ school of running a major league franchise. He believes in value signings such as David Ortiz, young guys on the cusp of their best years who come relatively cheap. He believes in statistics like on-base percentage. He believes in computers and Bill James, both of which he now employs in helping the Red Sox overcome the hated Yankees. And he believes in T-E-A-M, but not in old school T-E-A-M.”
The Red Sox HIRED Bill Freakin’ James. Face it…they’re one of the most sabermetrically inclined teams in the game.
Yeah and they didn’t win it by playing Moneyball did they!
Thats the part you didn’t seem to get, went right over your little empty head!
What does Bill James have to do with Moneyball?
He’s a Saber guy not a Moneyballer!
Did you even read the book?
I’ve read the book plenty of times. It’s an excellent book. I don’t believe you’ve read the book, because if you did, you’d realize that all of the methods that Beane and Sandy Alderson before him used were ideas that were theorized by Bill James.
And if you had read the book YOU would have known that the book wasn’t ABOUT Sabers or Bill James it was about how to find cheap players and the use of Sabers was merely incidental!
You did read the book didn’t you?
It was not a book meant to promote Sabers!
Sabers were around LONG BEFORE Moneyball was invented! 1983 If I’m not mistaken! Didn’t call it sabers but why quibble on that….
Moneyball was about building a cheap team and Sabers is one method they used to look!
But the book has little to nothing to do with Sabers because MONEYBALL would apply to ANY statistical analysis that could be used to find the metric the other teams don’t value!
In the book it just happened to be Sabers…
And typical that it would be since most Sabers seem to be skewed towards the OBP bias all you guys bow to like it’s a religion!
And despite all that it still has never won a WS!
Sabers may have but MONEYBALL? NEVER!
I own the book and just finished re-reading it before I went to see the movie two weeks ago. I never said that the book was strictly about sabermetric statistics…it’s not. However, it certainly plays a role in their evaluations of players.
It was about finding undervalued assets (i.e. cheap players other teams didn’t want) and early in Epstein’s tenure, he did an excellent job of that. They found a number of solid contributors for little money. For instance:
-David Ortiz, signed in 03 was non-tendered by Minnesota
-Kevin Millar, purchased from the Marlins in 03 for cash
-Bill Mueller, signed as a free agent in 2003 made 2.1 million a year
-Todd Walker signed as a free agent in 03, made 3.45 million
-Mike Timlin, one of their best relievers, signed as a free agent in 03 and made 1.8 million
-Mark Bellhorn, Gabe Kapler, Orlando Cabrera among others in 2004.
Plus, don’t forget the entire rebuild that he did between the WS wins in 2004 and 2007. Smart signings of guys who got on base and shrewd trades for undervalued players along with developing a strong farm system that can produce cheap, top level talent. Theo Epstein is a progressive GM who’s lucky to be in one of the biggest baseball markets, so he’s got money to throw around. He’s become a little too reliant on that in recent years but it doesn’t take away what he did in 2004 and 2007.
Re-Read it and still don’t really get it do you…Probably because it is printed in small letters not the See Spot Run fonts used in your usualy reading fare!
YOU brought Bill James into this…
YOU SAID Hiring Bill James was proof that the RedSox played moneyball!
SO YOU are the idiot who misinterpreted the book you READ TWICE!
YOU THINK SABERS=MONEYBALL!
Read it a third time but I doubt it will help someone like you…
no, not at all what I said.
note the part about stats identifying candidates, but people have to figure out which one is the right fit. Look at your favorite whipping boy, using traditional BB card stats means he is a keeper, right?
But you are missing the key point. there is more than traditinal stats, and no two players are exactly the same.
of course you can compare HRs, steals, etc. between guys, but what statistical analysis is trying to do is say what the differences mean in terms of the end goal (wins).
And what about defense? If you have to choose between a big bat/bad glove and a lower power/lots of speed/gold glove guy, who do you pick? The guy that fits your preconcieved bias, because they bring way different skills to the field.
and really, all sabermetrics ever tried to do was take all the traditional stats, and crunch the numbers from thousands of player seasons to figure out how to compare different players against the bottom line. And how to adjust for different eras (since you can’t compare a 2002 ERA to a 1967 one!)
So by this “flawless” logic, BMF, are you going to ride your horse and buggy to the general store, send a telegram back to me via the Pony Express to respond to this post and then go back to you farm and whip your slaves?
Because that’s also something that happened 160 years ago. I think the world is a much better place today because of technology and because things have developed but if you want to live 160 years in the past, you can be my guest. Just have a little consistency and actually live that way.
Those who fail to learn and know history are doomed to repeat it!
In your case the History book starts with the year 1995!
And you are going to repeat it until it actually works!
HAHAHA!
You’re supposed to learn about history and then NOT repeat it. Doing what’s been done for the past 160 years would be repeating history and that’s not good. Apparently, you misunderstood the quote. That’s a shame…you can’t read.
YEah so whats your excuse for repeating the failure of Oakland in never winnigna WS?
Oh thats right you ARE repeating it because your dumb!
The NY METS haven’t won a WS since 1986 and whatever our team has been doing ISN”T working either!!!
Talk about dumb…..
We went to one though in 2000 didn’t we?
Did Oakland even go to ONE since they played Moneyball?
Nuff said!
Thank You Any!
Sabers or any statistical analysis is used purely to try and use other means to evaluate players who scout very similar and on the whole are different only by their statistical results.
You find those players and use stats to whittle down the list of the cadidates with the quality your looking for and then scout them to see who is more or less flawed. Take what you see and try to cross reference to the numbers they put and see if the number are something you can improve on or maintain!
No one just looks at a stat sheet and says I’m going after PlayerX sight unseen except maybe the stat heads who barely have a clue what goes on DURING a game and make all their assumptions based on events they can’t put into context because they don’t know the situations that DROVE those numbers to be what they are!
“No saber based teams got rid of their scouting staffs”
Thank you for making my point for me!
EXACTLY no team has abandoned it’s Scouting department because they know STATISTICAL ANALYSIS gets the wrong answer unless backed up by scouting!
They are NOT of equal importance!
The teams who use Sabers are no better at team building than some who use pure scouting!
Phillies for example!
Milwaukee for example!
This is why sabergoonery doesn’t work in baseball. Crawford was forced to play under ENORMOUS media scrutiny in Boston. There’s a human element to all of this, of course. Crawford was overwhelmed by it. Took his issues to the field. Here’s where a player should COMPLETELY turn his back on the media and just ignore them. Crawford tried to play by the rules and got hammered by them, which exacerbated his issues. Hopefully for Crawford, he learned his lesson and comes out hacking away next season.
Some guys can adjust to media BS while others can’t. It’s what it is.
Dunn is an unathletic oaf, who wouldn’t be able to do the things he does (cherrypick for the homer) once his bat speed diminished. Not that I see him often, but this isn’t a guy who one would wager keeps his bat speed once he hits 30. Not a shock he fell off the planet last year.
Jason Werthless is a joke. This guy made his career in a park where offensive numbers leap out at you for even the most modest of players. When someone like this gets paid Carlos Beltran money, you know there’s a saberfool back there assuming this man is worth the type of investment which was given to the man. In LA this guy was a nobody hitting in that massive yard. In Philly, he’s some middle of the order hitter with PHONY stats. Lo and behold, he arrives in Washington and tanks down to LA park levels of production.
Each one of these contracts have their reasons for being bad. The one that wasn’t predictable, to a degree, was Carl Crawford’s. Giving Dunn and Werthless their contracts was a disaster waiting to happen. I believe Crawford will adjust to life in Boston and produce next season. If he doesn’t adjust to the vultures in the media, he’s going to have difficulties working there.
Yeah and the substance of your post proves your familiar with moronic behavior!
I know you are but what am I! Hahahahaha that was hilarious in 2nd grade, Metsie.
Well played. *sarcasm*
You know all these MONEYBALL sales pitches are starting to have an affect on me…
I am alomost HOPING Sandy does it and does it BY THE BOOK!
So when it fails I won’t have to read anymore of these short sighted sales pitches because all the moneyballers will have to move to other teams to sell it on because they will have lost all credibility here!
So Sandy PLEASE PLEASE Reduce Payroll to Pirate levels!
Forget curing the Patient just Euthenize it put it out of it’s misery so when the next GM takes over he has a fully clean slate to work with when he starts to reverse the KMart Roster you built!
What does Alderson have to do with Moneyball? Moneyball in Oakland took place after he resigned.He resigned because he was forced to cut payroll which he did for two years before heading for the hills.
How come we can use stats to project players or use them to decide whether free agents are worth a huge financial commitment, but we don’t use stats for GM’s? If a player had six straight seasons of below average performance, would you give him a 4 year deal with an average salary in the top five percent of all players? And yet, that’s exactly what we did with Sandy Alderson.
maniac, so what you’re saying is, why pay chone figgins miguel cabrera money?? hhh, nice evaluation… Sandy alderson hasn’t won crap as a GM, 7 straight losing seasons, also, there’s a posibility the mets will be even worst this upcoming year, as a GM, his first year was terrible, his moves were questionable to say the least, added a reach in the draft, traded an all star closer for crap, and not once you hear this man talk about winning a championship, as he seems to have no intention to build a winner in NY..
Yes Alderson is obsessed with putting a losing team together.He wants to lose badly.He’s actually here to shoot another Major League movie.That’s why he doesn’t talk about a championship.He wants to add losing to his legacy.His dream is to put an even lousier team on the field than Minaya but for one third the price.Some people ar just dumb!
What is Alderson’s salary? And how does it compare to other GMs? I’ve heard Cashman is the highest paid and he makes $2 million.
Yep and he is successful isn’t he?
I wonder why?
Is it because he avoids anyone over 25 in free agency or pays league minimum for everyone on his team?
Or is it because he knows if he has a Sabathia, a Texiera he will win games and they will pay for themselves in fan attendance?
You should NEVER bring up the yankees in a Moneyball discussion dude!
You will lose EVERYTIME!
Name one GM who has avoided a Big contract and won two WS in a row…
Scrap that name a GM who won two WS in a row!
Was moneyball nothing but Kids used to get there?
Here endith the lesson!
Still didn’t answer my question.
This conversation isn’t about moneyball. Maniac decided he’d use this opportunity to attack Alderson, and I just would like some clarification.
Ah the old try and change the subject routine!
Did Alderson win anything this year?
Did NOT paying for good players lead to success?
This entire thread is SO MUCH about Moneyball it’s rediculous!
The whole point of cherry picking the few Maybe not so good contracts is totally pointing towards saying DON’T SIGN REYES!
PLAY MONEYBALL!
You actually going t answer the question or just keep making noise in a vein attempt to distract from your ignorance?
When you show proof someone else will!
YOU FIRST!
What does Salary of Aldeson have to do with anything?
Is there a correct price for FAILURE?
Isn’t NOTHING the correct price for that?
So, you’re not paying attention at all. Nifty.
to YOU?
Never!!!!
You are just a post sniper with no insight and never any proof!
Just make wild assumptions and when those assumptions get challenged and disproved you circle jerk the conversation away from the subject to hide the fact you got caught with no proof or to avoid answering the questions you know if you answered would expose your POV as POS!
What exactly is moneyball? How is the philosphy of moneyball being applied to the NY Mets.
No wild assumptions of course…..
Go ahead….lets see how you spin this with your hippocracy.
DON’T SPEND!
REDUCE PAYROLL!
FIND CHEAP PLAYERS!
LET GOOD ONES GO FOR PICKS!
TRADE GOOD PLAYERS OFF FOR PICKS!
Tell me that is not Moneyball?
If not then what IS?
And Joe just to be fair to you…I’m not suggesting Sandy is going to implement MONEYBALL here…
Just the folks who keep bringing up Expensive Contracts and their few MISSES who are more interested in MONEYBALL than Sandy may or may not be!
Truth is we will see where Sandy sits when he negotiates with Reyes!
If he signs him then all these guys will complain it wasn’t worth it and look for every reason the say it wasn’t!
And if he doesn’t sign Reyes it’s a pretty good bet unless he signs some other player to a big contract to make up for that loss and will make us winners that MONEYBALL will be in FULL FORCE!
So if some teams comes in and offers Reyes crazy money – for arguments sake – something stupid like $300M for ten years, and the Mets can’t match that will mean the FO is not committed to winning?
What is the ceiling to sign Reyes (knowing how much improvement this teams needs, ie Pitching, both SP BP) and other positions?
If you are inferring the Beltran trade, that was not moneyball but GOOD baseball move. While Beltran during his tenure was one of my favorite players, the move made perfect sense. He would have had NO impact on how this team finished….none.
SO I’ll take that as you couldn’t find my bashing anywhere right? Care to apologize?
First off Beltran trade DID have an impact on how this team finished!
We were only 7.5 games out of the Wildcard with a .509 Winpct on July 31st (Cards were 8.5 games out on Sept 1st and won it!) Two months without Beltran and we were 14.5 games out! Almost TWICE as far away as we were with him! We finished with a .475 Win Pct!
Before beltran left we had a .519, .593, .519 Win Pct in May, June and july!
Beltran leaves and we have a .385, .429 Win Pct in August and Sept.
No Affect? BULL!
So did K-Rods trade…
How many times did our replacement closer blow the save and the game we were winning?
No Affect? BULL!
Are those moves smart baseball moves?
The future will tell!
But it would appear that all the MONEYBALLERS seem to have a habit of making a pretty good team who played well above .500 ball for the meat of the summer without two HUGE bats in Wright and Davis there to help is something to tear down and was worth squat!
There is no proof that those were good moves and every indication they usurped what could have been a very good season if only we had SPENT money, Got better Pitching, Kept Beltran and K-Rod despite what they got paid we had a shot at winning the wildcard!
I know it’s convenient to say don’t worry about the fact we made the team worse because it’s going to be better for us in the future.
Thats only correct if the future actually is better than it was now!
And Unless you think we are going to play better than .593 baseball in that future you really haven’t made a good move yet!
COULD BE but your just guessing!
And yes I ignored your rediculous number regarding Reyes!
When he gets that much then we can talk!
If you read the whole thing, I said WHAT IS THE CEILING with Reyes, so you can continue not answer the question.
Your remarks about what this FO has done is wrong, and presumptions of what they will do in the future are wrong and that presumptions. SO no I do not apologize for that because you are bashing them on what you THINK they are going, and it has NOTHING to do with Moneyball.
In addition, why is it anyone that doesn’t buy into what you say is a Moneyballer? is that all you got?
I’m not answering the question because you don’t know the answer even if I give the right one!
What is the point!
The Market will say what Jose Reyes is worth and next year a player worse than him will get even MORE than Reyes…
In that sense Reyes is worth whatever the Market says he is!
Especially since you have no cheap alternative to give you what he does as a replacement!
Still awaiting my Apology!
What all these guys fail to consider is that Players don’t get paid based on what you THINK they will do!
This is the PROBLEM with Ststistical analysis they close their eyes to!
Past results do not reflect future performance!
These guys get paid based on what they DID and the HOPE they can do it again provided you put them into position to do so!
A drop in numbers in many cases is less the failure of the player and more the failure of the TEAM to provide them with and put them into the situation where they could shine!
Johan Santana was a Cy Young pitcher! UNTIL he came here!
He got paid based on what he DID not on what he WOULD do!
And the fact he hasn’t won 20 games for us says a hell of lot more about what was playing around him than his own loss of performance!
Now he got hurt, PROBABLY because he knew he had to singlehandedly get those wins, over pitched and blew out his arm trying to strike out the side on a single pitch!
Jason Bay is a bust because WE LOOKED at PAST RESULTS of a player who played in a park that made hitting HRs for RH batters EASY!
Oswalt seems to be a bad pitching next to Halliday and Lee, Is he? Or is it that after seeing two of the best pitvchers in the game Oswalt looks easier to hit and batters hit him because it is easier than what they faced the two previous days?
If you think that because a player has certain stats that you ran through a spreadsheet and looked good means he is going to have those numbers in an entirely new situation then your FOOLISH!
This is why Scouting teams do just as well and the ANALyzers!
They are worth what they got paid because they got paid based on what they DID and are capable of doing!
And if they do not do it then it is up to the GM and coaches to re-produce the conditions that helped him GET that past performance!
If they do not then it is THIER failure not for signing him but in failing to take into account what was needed to keep those numbers where they projected to be!
“Past results do not reflect future performance!”
YOU SAID IT, not stand behind what you say………..including your bashing of Alderson to date…….
Yeah? Post some of this bashing pleae should be interesting to see what you come up with?
I have never ONCE bashed Sandy!
All I have ever said was if you guys intend to use a certain set of criteria to judge Omar that I will apply those same criteria to Sandy!
Such as blaming Omar for not developing and preparing the team to get into the WS in year two of his tenure!
Or Blaming Omar for the injuries his players had and not blaming Sandy for all the ones that usuruped his season this year such as Wright Davis Santana and Murphy!
Or blaming Omar for not building the Phillies (which took 12 years) by year 6!
In year 6 Sandy had better have built the Phillies if it is fair to hold Omar to that timetable!
But I have never once bashed any move made by Alderson…In fact the only move I questioned was trading away Beltran while we were in the middle of playing close to .600 Winning Pct baseball!
But I understood why he did it and didn’t say it was a monumental mistake.
It sure seems like Murphy’s Law for a player’s new team when talking about most the expensive Type A FA the past few years- Zito, Rowand, Soriano,Drew, Lackey,Bay, Crawford,Werth, Dunn, etc.
My God..What a beating Who has taken from Metsie today. This is a BEATING of EPIC proportion. If this were a prize fight, the ref would have stepped in to stop the slaughter….LOL
Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh. Omar sucks.
Nice to see you can laugh at your own embarassment!
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
(In case you have trouble taking hints…it’s you not me).
More intelligent of the two? I agree!
What a comeback! You’re a genius with these middle school comebacks. *sarcasm*
So how old are you again?
Please let all of us know precisely what we are dealing with here!
The Pool currently has you heavily favored for under 15!
Beating? On an internet fan site? How does that happen?
I do see Metsie using his usual, “lie about what others are saying, misrepresent facts, completely fail at whatever topic he claims expertise in this week and put up a wall of crap to distract from him being so obviously wrong” routine.
Yeah care to list the lies and misrepresented facts?
Or is this just you doing what you accuse me of?
Because it’s really YOUR MO not mine!
Every time you bring up OBP, you say other people are obsessed with it.
You keep saying people on the other side of an issue worship Moneyball, when every person tells you Moneyball does not apply here.
And your bizarre off the rails rants.
Hmm change of subject? Expected!
Every person says it doesn’t apply but then go and find every reason to cut salary anyway!
You attempt to hide the fact that you are suggesting MONEYBALL PHILOSOPHY is not working!
Everyone sees right through it!
Sandy may not apply it (this I have said numerous times) But most of the people who are railing against signing Reyes and big salaries would!
cutting salary is not an indication of “Moneyball”. It is a sign of new management.
The concerns about signing Reyes to a long term deal have nothing to do with Moneyball and everything to do with another Jason Bay/Luis Castillo/Oliver Perez/Barry Zito/Vernon Wells/ etc etc
Oh so anytime a new management team comes in the first thing they are supposed to do is get rid all the good players who get paid because of how good they are…
Thats what you think? Guess what THAT is moneyball!
Only the Moneyballers do that!
Most new FOs don’t purge their best players if they do they don’t last very long and get fired!
I know you will find this hard to believe but most GMs are not interested in cutting Salary unless they are forced to!
Only the Moneyballers seem to think it is the way to go!
Most (Sandy Included) would much rather be able to spend to build a winner!
They may not spend top dollar but they sure don’t prefer to KMART shop either!
Yet that is what you seem to think is the way to go no matter if we are talking about the current batting champion or the guy who was the leader of a team who had a .593 Win Pct in June!
You were determined to cut salary and GUT a team that had:
.519 WinPct in May
.593 WinPct in June
.519 WinPct in July!
You said it was WORTHLESS and needed to be scrapped in order to succeed.
You said 7.5 games from the Wildcard was insurmountable in July. Cards were 8.5 games out on Spetember first (Two months LATER than July, and THEY WON IT!!!!)
And you got your way!
Beltran gone, Closer Gone!
.385 WinPct in August!
.429 WinPct in September!
There is the improvment your philosophy promises us!
If you still think the Beltran move was not a good one, you are more lost then I ever thought you were.
This team, as much as we all love it, was NOT going to the post season even if Beltran stayed.
Comparing this years Mets to this years Cardinals is not only disillusion it’s borderline sick.
Sorry I’m always the optimist and every April I think, this could be it, but for crying out loud, IT WAS A GREAT MOVE, not a good move a GREAT MOVE.
Instead we would have finished MAYBE at .500 and had a guy with bad legs walk out the door and we get NOTHING in return.
How anyone even questions that move is beyond me……….
Beating! Metsie got his lunch handed to him by Who,Any and Donal.Beating? Lmao! This site is unreal.I guess it takes an idiot to idolize an idiot.
It’s unreal how insufferably stupid Metsie is…I didn’t think it was possible but Metsie is a lying, spin machine.
Sad that he considers himself a Mets fan and he can’t even root for the excellent job his team’s general manager is doing. What’s he going to do…cry when the Mets win the World Series in a few years? How sad. The point of being a fan is to actually, you know, ROOT for the team.