11
2011
As the Phillies Payroll Has Increased, Their Postseason Success Has Decreased
An article by 
To the joy of many Mets fans, The Phillies lost a heartbreaking, 1-0 game 5 on Friday night after being heavily speculated as the favorite to win it all in 2011. Despite adding payroll every year since their World Series title in 2008, the Phillies have actually continuosly had less and less success in the postseason.
After coming out of nowhere to acquire Cliff Lee this winter, the Philadelphia Phillies rotation was so stacked it would make any batter queasy. Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, and Roy Oswalt: The feared quartet of arms that was supposed to carry them to another championship, or so they thought. Despite creating one of the best rotations in the history of the game, they failed to make it past the NLDS, falling to the Cardinals in five games.
Since winning it all back in ’08, the Phillies have gone from losing in the Fall Classic to the Yankees back in 2009, to falling in the NLCS last season to their stumble into the playoffs and elimination in the NLDS last week. Throughout this timespan, the Phillies have added $15-30 million in payroll every single year, and have have been knocked out of the playoffs sooner and sooner. Just look at these figures:
As you can see, the extra money has not done anything to help the Phillies, if anything it has consistently hurt them. Despite adding three aces, three all-star bats and several relievers since their World Series title in 2008, Philadelphia continues to go home earlier and earlier in October.
Moneyball gets so much heat because they did not have postseason success, but once the Phillies started to become a big-market franchise, they haven’t exactly been dominant in the playoffs either. The 2002 A’s won 103 games, the second most wins in their history since moving to Oakland, yet lost in the ALDS in five games to the Twins on a budget of $41 million. The Phillies won 102 games, the most in franchise history, and lost in five games to the Cardinals in the NLDS on a budget of $173 million.
The A’s had for the most part a bunch of cast-offs and had the same result as the 2011 Phillies, who had one of the best rotations ever and a star-studded lineup. Is this evidence that the playoffs are won by chance and momentum rather than talent? Or is it just a fluke? What do you think?
About the Author: Clayton Collier
Clayton, a Long Island native and die-hard Mets fan, started writing online about three years ago. He is currently a Journalism major with a minor in Broadcasting at Seton Hall University. Although very disappointed with the current state of the team, Clayton remains hopeful that the young prospects in the farm system will bring the Mets back to a respected franchise in baseball once again. Besides writing for MMO, Clayton is also a staff member at 89.5 WSOU, Seton Hall's modern active rock radio station. You can contact Clayton by following him on Twitter: @Clayton_Collier or E-mailing him at MaybeNextYearMets@yahoo.com
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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I think we better concern ourselves more on what players we need to get in order to win instead of worrying about who has the most success with the least amount of money.
Sometimes the teams with the most money wins it and sometimes they don’t.
I really do not care.
There are lots of unhappy people with lots of money and lots of happy people with no money
There also lots of happy people who are LOADED and lots of miserable folk who don’t have a pot to pee in.
Get good players, get some good scouts, make some smart decisions regardless of your payroll and try to…
WIN BASEBALL GAMES.
i don’t care how much we spend, as long as we do it to win, in terms of the phillies yes they haven’t won the WS since 2008, but they’ve been in the playoffs every year!! 5 straight season making the playoffs and they still will be favorites next year.
meanwhile, we’ll be bottom dwellers again as our GM has no intention to win here. watch after reyes go how some idiot here will actually say is the right move and we should look forward 2014 because that’s when the picks we got for reyes will pan out or make it to the bigs..
we shredded almost $70 million yet most of that money will go to the wilpons’pockets, as they need as much as they can in order to pay the debt they’ll be in IF AND WHEN the lawsuit settlement comes up. until then, say hello to 3rd place!!!!
ohh, and clayton, here’s somthing you should’ve pointed out:
the phillies in the last 5 years have won 5 straight division titles, 2 WS appearance, 1 Championship and 2 NL pennants..phillies have had more success in those 5 years than the mets in last 25. they started winning and spent the money, the mets in 2006 did the same, but injuries did them in. also, omar was way in over his head after the 2007/2008 seasons and made horrible additions of castillo and ollie to the team.
well, it is also more success than the Phillies had in their 1st 100 years.
where alive by then any?? because if the mets win NOW you think i’d care if we didn’t win s*** for the past 25 years!!!
As out payroll went up we got worse too.
http://www.talkingchop.com/
http://philliesnation.com/
Maybe they should make a movie about the Phillies next? This movie will have a better ending because the team actually wins a world series.
LOL.. not only wins a World series, but 2 pennants and 5 straight division titles, and RELOAD every season.. i’m happy they lost, but they didn’t lose because of the payroll, but because st louis played better. take the 2007 rockies, they were hot and made it all the way to the WS. then, 1,2,3 and 4 good bye.. because why? BOSTON had a huge payroll and the rockies didn’t!! (roll eyes)
Just goes to show that winning the division year after year doesn’t mean jack if you can’t play in the big games. Look at the Braves for example. How many playoff games did they play during their run? And they won one World Series? I love that the Phillies lost in the playoffs. Maybe their fans will start to jump off the bandwagon.
or a bridge
The problem here is the Moneyballers think by spending we are just spending for the sake of it…
No one is suggesting that but they try to paint it out like we are going to look for the next Oliver Perez, Jason Bay and Luis Castillo!
They say Sandy is a smart guy but then go and think that if Sandy Spends thats what he is going to spend it on!
So they think he is smart as long as he doesn’t spend but will be dumber than a cardboard box if he DOES spend!
That pretty much tells you everything you need to know about what these moneyballers think!
They LIKE Sandy and think he is smart becuase they THINK he will finally give them the GOOD BOOK in NY!
But They don’t TRUST him to spend, they don’t trust ANYONE to spend! SPENDING IS FAILURE!
All you really need to know about the mindset we are dealing with here!
Well so far Sandy has proven not to be smart at all. His offseason was awful and as it turns out there were plenty of other baseball players out there that could have been signed within the budget he was given.
If Sandy was this genius, smart guy that his disciples claim him to be than he SHOULD have been able to smart enough to figure out what players out there gave the Mets the best chance to win and he didn’t. Instead OTHER GMs scrapped those players up. And in fact, the Mets have THREE General Managers and still could not do better than they did.
Craig Lerner, in his Meet The Econo-Mets post before the season said that Sandy Alderson had a “remarkable” off season.
Jim Jones and David Korech type cult leaders are you reading this? This a huge resource of followers out there looking for leadership and if any prospective cult leaders are looking for disciples I’d suggest you start combing the baseball blogs, especially the saber group.
You are all really sinking to new low levels with your accusations, and lies.
Just because people were available does not mean SA can get on the phone and say come here, and they will say YES, it’s just not the way it works, no matter what you may think. For someone who CLAIMS to have played the game and involved SHOULD know this, but that’s probably more of your lies.
SA had an off season indicative of a guy that took over the job that same off season and had a limited budged with LOTS to do…
You can say it in every post, but there is still ONE GM not three, and owners that have a tight grip on the money right now
Well it’s debatale to say Sandy is not smart based on what he did last season.
What he did is what they want, NOT SPEND!
They BELIEVE he is smart yet not smart enough to spend money to improve the team is the point I’m trying to get across here!
If he is smart and would spend based on those supposed smarts then he would not sign bad contracts so I fail to see why they should be so opposed to spending if they think the guy is smart enough to build WITHOUT spending then he SHOULD be a SLAM DUNK success if he does!
They don;’t want to see that side of it though, it’s all about the money and the book!
Who is they?
Those guys over there
I love people that write these long comments on what “THEY” think those that are apposing them are actually talking about. Facts do NOT matter, they just know what we are going to say, think or do…..immature crap.
They they They they They they They they They they They they They they
MONEYBALL MONEYBALL MONEYBALL MONEYBALL MONEYBALL MONEYBALL
DON’T SHOW ME STATS I KNOW WHAT I SAW………..
Sounds like a line from the Wizard of Oz……….
And I love people who claim to love a spend less philosophy so much that they still don’t have the balls to admit they are moneyball fans!
Balls to admit? Wow tough guy behind a keyboard aren’t you.
Yeah like kind of saying Jesus is the best philosophy to live by But I’m not a christian and don’t call me one!
If you believe MONEYBALL Philosophy is GOOD then your a Moneyballer!
Why hide from the label that identifies you with the philosophy your promoting?
Embarassment for being identified with it?
Why would you be embarassed to be called a Moneyballer if you believe in the philosophy?
The MONEYBALLERS Joe! The Guys who think it is dumb to give a big contract regardless of the guy being a Batting champion!
Well thanks again for proving you don’t know what moneyball is about, and anyone that doesn’t agree with you is a moneyballer.
Are you old enough to use the computer without your Mommy’s permission?
Joe it is YOU apparently who doesn’t understand what Moneyball is about!
It is about NOT SPENDING a lot of MONEY!
You think SABERS=MONEYBALL!
Which says to everyone YOU are the one who didn’t read the book not us because you drew the wrong conclusion as to what Moneyball was about!
SABERS was the METHODOLOGY USED to find cheap players!
MONEYBALL itself is about the GOAL not the METHOD!
The Method is discussed but not key to the goal!
Sabers do not find the CHEAPEST players!
GOOD SABERS do not mean the player that has them is CHEAP!
Reyes has GREAT Sabers…Is he CHEAP?
MONEYBALL uses Sabers but Sabers do not determine WHO to get!
HOW MUCH does!
By using Sabers you get a list of players, some expensive some cheap!
Moneyball requires EXCLUDING the ones who are not cheap and removing them from the list of players the Sabers SAID was good!
THEN picking from what remains!
PERSONALLY, I BELIEVE THE PAYROLL DIRECTIONAL DIFFERENCE FROM THEIR PLAYOFF RESUKTS IS MUCH MORE ATTRIBUTABLE TO THEIR AGE AS ONE OF THE OLDEST REGULAR ROSTERS IN THE LEAGUE SO FEW REALIZE THAT ROLLINS,UTLEY,HOWARD WERE IN THEIR MID-LATE 20s WHEN THEY DEBUTED. IT DOESN’T TAKE VERY LONG AS IN ’07 THEY WERE ALL IN THAT 28-31 AGED BRACKET COMMIONLY CONSIDERED THE MLB PRIME PLAYER PRODUCTIVIRT SPAN THAT SHOULD DETERMINE BOTH REYES & WRIGHT AS KEEPERS THROUGHOUT THEIR EARLY 30s
PHL PITCHING DROVE THEIR SEASON AS WELL AS PAYROLL, AGE DETRERMINED THEIR LATE PRODUCTION OFFENSIVE FADE.
It should also be pointed out that their wins in the regular season has also increased with their Salary!
2006 – 85-77 .525 WinPct
2007 – 89-73 .549 WinPct
2008 – 92-70 .568 WinPct
2009 – 93-69 .574 WinPct
2010 – 97-65 .599 WinPct
2011 – 102-60 .630 WinPct
2008 – They faced low spending Tampa Bay in WS and won!
2009 – Faced the higher spending Yankees and lost!
SO I don’t really see where the dots got connected here.
To be fair,
2010: Lost to the MUCH lower spending Giants NLCS
2011: Lost to the lower spending Cards in the NLDS
None of those teams are LOW spenders though are they?
They were middle pack spenders not moneyballers!
Both Giants and StLouis spend above 100Mil
Teams that wouldn’t even be in the playoffs if the regular season actually counted for something!
Yes Wildcard underdogs sometimes beat good teams in a short series!
it’s your side of the coin that suggests that all the time when the past winners of the WS for the last 20 years shows uop to be all the big spenders!
Since the advent of Moneyball:
10 Spenders have won the WS!
Biggest spender won it 5 times!
Interspersed were 5 Middle spenders!
Not a single Bottom feeder team has appeared!
Sorry correction the Giants would have been in it even without the Wildcard!
To be fair, a good chunck of the Giants 2010 payroll was tied up in bad investments:
$18.5 to Zito
$13.5 to Rowand
$6 to DeRosa
$10 in Renteria
Also, $4.5 in Molina, who was traded at the deadline.
So if you really look at their core guys who brought them to their World series title, you are looking at a small market team.
CLAYTON, who was the MVP of the world series?!?!?!
Is Edgar Renteria really worth $10 million in your eyes?
ummmm, well, jason bay stinks, and if he was to win the MVP of the world series for us, ALL IS FORGIVEN!!!!!! wouldn’t you agree?? would you care how much bay makes if he wins the WS MVP after having an atrociuos season like the ones he’s had for us
Yep Clatyon, sometimes that happens it means NOTHING. You’re talking about 2 years out of baseball history – let’s start comparing payrolls to wins percentages from seasons in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s
You just want to win at the cheapest price possible and that’s a BAD mind set to develop. Just get the best players you can with whatever budget you have and be smart about it.
If we win with the cheapest payroll GREAT! AMAZING! It’s the best of both worlds!!!!!
But if we win and the budget is exhausted or maybe we needed a couple extra bucks to get the right fit the champagne tastes the same.
I really DON’T GIVE A FLYING you know what how a World Series winner has spent to win. The accountants and financial assistants are not playing on the field.
to be fair,
2008 beat up a dodgers team that spent more.. what is your point clayton? be happy they lost, don’t bring up the fact they lost and they have a high payroll, otherwise, you’ll be writing one every year about the yankees.. when they lose IN THE PLAYOFFS they always lose to someone with a lower payroll..
It’s not that the Phillies spent a lot, its that they have all that money tied up in old players who are declining and players who were never that good to begin with.
Ya, we’re seeing the back end of their run and a good example of the downside to big money long term deals, but they will probably be contenders for another year or 2.
Hopefully, in that time, the Mets will have their act together.
A couple down years for every 7 year run? Shlt happens you know? Something about paying the piper, natural cycles of life stuff.
I’d sign for that RIGHT NOW. I don’t care what my budget is – big or small, i’d sign up for that every time.
Oh, wait…my mistake….The way the Mets are doing things now is – don’t bother to win, don’t bother to compete, just wait a few years because ALL these kids will guarantee us a winning season, EVERY season for indefinitely.
How do you think you lay the foundation or recover to start those 7 year runs? By grabbing every big name free agent every year, regardless of how good you actually are?
No, sometimes you have to accept reality and do the hard task of cleaning up and rebuilding. One thing every grown up should know is that you can’t just buy the important things. You have to suffer for and commit to them.
this happens all the time. Teams that are on a run of success tend to get more expensive, because they get older (both from their home grown core aging, and adding FAs to keep putting them over the top).
And FAs tend to be expensvie (the good ones), and the longer you keep your own developing players, the more expensive they get.
comgine that with offensive players not usually being as productive (or healthy) when they hit their early 30s vs. mid-late 20s, and this is the result!
Again, if this is the problem I have to face for every 7 or 5 year run then SIGN ME UP EVERY TIME
not like you get to keep repeating this type of run. The Mets had one, and it has been 25 years trying to do it again. The phils took a century to put it together.
The odds are that when the phils run crashes (whether it is in 1-2 years) that it will be a long time before they put together another one.
you hope. You don’t know that, you don’t even know what they will do THIS offseason.
Granted the bad news about Ryan Howard for next season is welcoming but let me see what Amaro does during the off season before giving any kind of long range forecast for the Phillies.
Clayton…Difference this year is their prime time bats have been injured. Utley and Howard were walking wounded. Jimmy Rollins performed well, but without your #3 and #4 hitters getting it done, no team is going to succeed. If your #3 and #4 hitters are going to poof in the playoffs, you might as well start planning out your vacation spots. It has NOTHING to do with payroll. It had everything to do with their better hitters not operating @ peak performance. Payroll got the Sillies to their best record in ages, but it wasn’t going to prevent them from falling flat on their collective faces in Game 5.
For decades, the media has tricked people into believing “injuries are not an excuse” blah blah blah. Injuries are a REASON for a team not playing well. If your top athletes are injured, it’s going to mean reduced performance. That’s all you need to even things up in the playoffs. The Cardinals, who were without one of their top pitchers all year, needed that break. Utley is a shell of his former self. After September, so was Howard. The Phillies were not a strong offense. They did enough to win. Any injury to their top athlete was going to ruin them eventually. Howard getting hurt pretty much sealed their offensive fate against a superior pitcher like Carpenter.
At the end of the day, money, most times, will get you a ticket to the playoffs but not to the WS.
The money problem the Mets have (or rather the lack of money) is that they have so many holes to fill.
We are not one signing away from a championship team – and we haven’t been for years (ask Omar about that – he would make one huge signing while ignoring things like bullpen help).
Money is nice – but only when its used right – as the Yanks and the Phils have recently found out. You need good players but these good players have to fit in with the rest of the team – not the other way around.
Too bad teams don’t have crystal balls to see in the future. If you really want to show us how smart you are, select some players you want to give major money to in the future. See if you’re right or wrong. Figure out players in ’13 and ’14 and do something TRULY worth your time instead of revisionist history lessons.
If I had my way, I’m ditching Ike Davis in a trade, signing Pujols or Fielder. I send out Wright for pitching and prospects. I send out Bay to the White Sox for Peavy and eat some money in the process to make it even. You give Reyes the money. Turn the team around quickly. Cross your fingers on Martinez, Valdespin and Reese making the jump to the big squad and away we go.
Now, that’s off the top of my head. Think of some better options, since real time GM’s don’t have the time to do the revisionist history thing……
I’m so happy you are not the GM……………
See if major money works out – how’s that been working for us the last 10 years or so?
Well we already have PROOF major money works!
Who has spent the most in the past 15 years?
Who has the Most WS appearances in the last 15 years?
Who has more WS wins in the past 15 years?
ANSWER KEY:
Yankees
Yankees 7 appearances!
Yankees 5 WS Wins!
We haven’t spent major money in the last 10 years!
We have never spent as much as we needed to do what the Yankees have!
No One else has either which is why no one else has DONE what the Yankees have!
Atlanta is the next most frequent WS team with 3 Appearances since 95! They won ONCE!
Because they failed to spend to maintain what they had!
I’ll tell you what I told someone else.
The 4, the B or the D to 161st Street, or take the MetroNorth Harlem Line to 161 Street if you are so inclined.
If you are driving, take exit 5 off I-87 (The Major Deegan). enjoy.
I know how to get there I worked over a dozen games there this year!
And let me tell you it sure sucks driving out of there compared to Citi because no one showed up after we cut all the Payroll!
Would you like Directions to your favorite team Oakland?
There is NEVER any traffic getting out of there not even when they were in the playoffs as many times as the Yanks were winning world series’
How fast we forget the truth…..When the Mets in successive years brought in Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado, signed Wright and Reyes followed by bringing Billy Wagner, JJ Putz and finally K Rod everybody assumed we would be awesome. Injuries and the ever present issues of playing in NY and having to deal with the media took care of that with only an appearance in the 2006 NL Championship Series and 2 disheartening years of season ending slumps.
Until the organization can rebuild the minor league system and the finances get straightened out…it’s all a crapshoot!