25
2011
As The Game Evolves, So Do The Fans
An article by 
I was 4 years old when the 1986 Mets won the World Series. My memories of that team are re-created by old school videos of myself with my siblings and cousins cheering “Lets Go Mets… YEAH!” at the dinner table for my sister’s 1st birthday party.
The earliest Halloween memory I have is of my mother sewing myself and my 2 older brothers Mets uniforms for us. My oldest brother was Gary Carter, next oldest was Lenny Dykstra and I was Wally Backman.
Whenever I was home sick up until the day of my high school graduation, I would watch the video “1986 Mets – A Year to Remember,” and by the time I was in 5th grade, I could recite the video word for word.
As I grew up, I got more involved in baseball card collecting. The Mets of the early 90’s weren’t exactly a team that would keep a young lad happy, so I found myself trying to learn about as many players as I could across the game. I’d take my cards, shuffle them up and place players in their correct positions and have my own pseudo fantasy baseball league. Who knew I could be so innovative?
We’re all the same as fans. Deep down, whatever our views are of how to get things done, we’re all that young kid on Halloween dressing up as their favorite Met. We all want the same thing, a successful Mets franchise because we all want to proudly scream “Lets Go Mets…Yeah!”
As I got older, I got more curious about the management of baseball. We all see what we see on the field, and we all have opinions on how it should be done. But, I was mostly curious with what went on behind the scenes. The decision makers, the ones who decided what promotions to have at the stadium. The ones who talked contract negotiation, talked trade, and talked scouting.
As I did as a fan, the game evolves. The game is always changing, but the remains the same on the field. The object of the game is to score more runs than the other team. The beauty of the game is that people can have different views of how to build the best team possible.
I don’t look at every sabermetric stat as an accurate metric to use. Just as I don’t look at every old fashioned statistic in the same way. One day, the NFL will find a wiser way to rate a QB’s performance. When that day happens, I won’t be longing for the days of the QB Rating.
I embrace technology because without technology, where would we be today? Technology and questioning the way we do things has made the game of baseball better. Baseball Executives like Theo Epstein, Jon Daniels, Andrew Friedman, Josh Byrnes, Kim Ng, and Paul DePodesta would not have the jobs they have if people didn’t start to question the way things have been done for years.
I myself, find that amazing. I find it amazing that a game has been a network of “good ole boys,” and because of technology and advances in the way we think about the game, these young minds have infiltrated front offices all across the country. Some have more success than others, but none of it would be possible without an open mind that “what we know, may not be all there is to know.”
Having more than one way to do something great, is something I embrace. For every old school GM who has success today, there can be another “outsider” with proven success.
I embrace technology because I don’t like to think I know everything. Sure, when I have an opinion I like to be right, but who doesn’t? However, when there are people clearly smarter than me doing things in a more advanced way, I refuse to poo-poo their methods simply because I don’t understand them.
A guy like Theo Epstein probably does things with statistics that almost all of us would have no idea about. He likely doesn’t take an excel sheet and sort by VORP and call it a day. We have the luxury of seeing what these stats are, but not how they use them, and how they factor them into their organizational philosophy. If Epstein finds value in the statistic VORP, then who am I to mock the idea of that stat simply because I personally do not use it?
If we never questioned the way we do things, and never embraced technology where would we be as a society?
I can tell you one thing for certain; if that were the case, there’d never be an MMO or an internet because Al Gore simply would have never thought to invent it.
Yes… that last part was sarcasm.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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card collecting huh? interesting. so, in 1986 the best players on the mets were gooden, strawberry and keith hernandez, you guys dressed up as carter, wally and dykstra? hmmmmmmmmm, and is your article you can say whatever you want, but nobody mocks you for using your sabermetrics approach here, is more like you trying as HARD AS YOU CAN to indulge it as the new way to go as if is the new thing. is a system that hasn’t won anything, and hell, if it helps us win i’ll embrace it,but until then, i rather judge a player by what i see, not what some text message sent to me says..
numbers tend to be deceiving, as i posted many times here, there are soooo many situations where numbers don’t come in contact with the game itself. if you weren’t watching that play of derek jeter in year 2000 and look at the box score, all you’d see is a play 9-6-2, but if you saw, that play made history, but go ahead with your numbers and sabermetrics and all that, but whoever don’t like it or disagree with it shouldn’t be call a fool and someone who lacks baseball knowledge as often you do
My dad was a huge Keith fan. My dad had bed ridden pneumonia in the late 80′s and I remember walking into his room with a Keith Hernandez baseball card. Huge Keith fan.
I’m not sure what Straw/Doc being the best have to do with anything? Backman was a scrappy player, and I never went with the overly popular players as my favorites. Wanna know who my next favorite player was after Backman moved on? He wasn’t a Met ever.
Bip Roberts.
ha… Bip roberts?!!? man.. you sure like winners and great players.. but, to each its own right?!
my fav player growing up was george brett, then gooden and straw were fav met. jesseP, did you know gerge brett hit 390 at age 28 to win the batting title? only 117 games and he had 24 hr’s and 120 rbi’s. talka bout one of the best season EVER in the history of baseball that NOBODY TALKS ABOUT…. UGH
I remember that season like it was yesterday and I was rooting for Brett to get to .400 and then stay there. He lasted as long as September 19 and then couldn’t keep up the pace and only batted .333 the rest of the way and falling to .390. The Daily News was tracking him every day in the sports pages. He played with a busted ankle that month. One of the all time greats.
nester, by mid september he was around 400 i remember, and he would’ve shut it down if he wanted to, but i think he didn’t have enough PA to qualify as a leader yet so he had to play to get more at bats, but i remember, he got hurt around june and when he came back from injury he was ON FIRE!! And couldn’t be put out..
No he wouldn’t have had enough PA’s if he missed any more time because of the injury earlier in the season.One thing that I didn’t like about Brett and it also shocked me that a player of his caliber would do but he sat out the last game of the year in 90 to win his 3rd BA Title. I idolized the guy as a kid but that bothered me.
I was also a big Mookie fan. One of the best moments of my time working in minor league baseball was when he was with Brooklyn, he was on the field as 3rd base coach and I was radio’d that I needed to let him know that our next promo may go a little long so that he doesn’t get pissed at us.
So we’re changing pitchers, I run out there (music is playing) “Mook!” (as though I have any right to call him anything but Mr. Wilson) “hey this next promo may go a little long so we just wanted to prepare you and your pitcher”
“Oh okay yea no problem”
I begin to think about walking away when I say “hey I just wanted to let you know I was a huge fan of yours growing up and its an honor to meet you” and I shake his hand and our PA announcer goes “way to go Branda, meeting one of your all time favorites in front of a sold out crowd”
And then the game ended, and I had a signed Mookie Wilson ball on my desk. Conflicting reports of how I got it, whether Mookie decided to do it on his own and give it to the clubby or if one of our staff asked for it.
Either way, cool.
Cool story Jessep.
I went to an interleague game at Fenway and as we’re getting our seats the PA in announcing the Met coaches and Mookie gets a loud boo and I’m thinking how could anyone boo Mookie wil……..? Oh yeah, forgot where I was for a second.
Mookie was a breath of fresh air when he got up here. I thought him, Hubie Brooks and Oquendo would help lead us out of the dark ages.
Hubie did. just not quite the way you expected.
No Agee they were yelling Mooooooooookie.lol…. What! You expected an ovation? lol…When Mookie,Hubie,Backman,Oquendo and Kelvin Chapman came up I started to have a little hope too.Then slowly Orosco started to develope,Carlos Diaz who turned into Sid Fernandez and away we went.
I kind of looked at this past season(2011) like the 1980 team.We hung around 500 for most of the season until mid August when we fell apart.Hopeully it won’t take until 2014 like 1984 from 1980 did to win 90 games.
Hey there’s something Alex and I have in common.I love George Brett and even wore 5 when I played.Favorite home grown Met was Edgardo Alfonzo and one of my all time favorite Mets was Rusty Staub.I wrote a letter to him in 1973 and he wrote me back.I wrote Seaver as well but all I got bacck was an autographed picture,only Rusty wrote back out of all the Mets I wrote to in those days.
Brett barely won the BA Title in 80 because he missed time with an injury and almost didn’t have enough plate appearances.He’s the only player to win BA Titles in 3 different decades.76,80 and 90.
I’ll never understand why people feel that THEY should pick someone’s favorite player. I’ve never felt that way. On the ’69 Mets my guy was Agee (and Koosman and later Clendennon) Close friends of mine preferred Cleon, Kranepool, Seaver, Harrelson and Grote. Later I liked Milan, others liked Mays, Staub, Matlack, Garrett, McGraw as well as Jones and Grote. In the mid 80′s I was first a Hernandez guy and Dykstra too. Friends of mine had their favorites and I had mine.
I never felt that I should choose who someone else liked best or felt the need to criticize their choice. You like who you like. Live and let live. That simple.
Agreed – they shouldn’t have to be the best player, but just the best in your eyes and heart.
My all time favorite Met is and will always be Bud Harrelson
says the guy who second guesses everything done in the mets organization, including ALL the moves made by minaya.. yeah.. live and let live…
That has nothing to do with a 4 year old boy picking his favorite player. A GM is paid to build a winning team. A 4 year old boy just likes the guy who makes funny catches.
And once again, you continue to instigate.
Sports in NY is a tough business. Just look at how long it took for the monkeyballers to go after Alderson? About 3 minutes.
Ever hear of M. Donald Grant? How much fun do you think he had? How about Steinbreener’s GM’s in the 80′s? The Maras in the 70′s? Did you see any planes flying over Citi Field demanding Minaya be canned? Think Harazin was spared the rod? Phillips? Isiah? They all got it because their results sucked but at least they had a track record to run on.
How you can compare legitimate fan complaints about shortsighted management decisions to who a 4 year old chooses to dress up as on halloween is beyond anyone’s ability to understand.
Geez…what an a**hole-ish comment. Who cares who the guy’s favorite player was? Hey Alex68: your comment comes off as sour grapes and trolling. Maybe you should follow Joe D’s rules-if you don’t have anything nice or constructive to say, don’t say anything at all. It’d make you look a heck of a lot less foolish.
if it aint who.. i have my reason as to why i made my comment, you don’t like it, do as you always do and thumbs down my……ohhh. wait….. HAHAHA, there’s no longer a thumbs down buttom for you losers to use!!!
Funny because I’ve never clicked on that childish thumbs up/down tool, so I guess it’s just you know…actual readers of the site who dislike your comments. Just keep looking like a little child, Alex68. Everybody sees through your act. You routinely come off looking like a little whiny baby.
cry me a river.
why did you make your comment Alex? I’m curious?
“so, in 1986 the best players on the mets were gooden, strawberry and keith hernandez, you guys dressed up as carter, wally and dykstra? hmmmmmmmmm”
Go ahead, say what you wanted say. i’ll give you a thumbs up bud.
Don’t even try it. He won’t answer. He’ll go crying to Joe D about unfair treatment before he gives you an answer.
me go to joe D? i think you’re talking to the wrong person… who..
IMO, technology has been great for the game of baseball.
As a fan since ’68, back in the day the only way you really had to track all things Mets were the sports pages. If you were lucky, there was an occasional article on prospects and the farm system. Sure, we read about the phenoms Straw and Doc waiting in the wings in the early 80s, but we only had what was written to go by. Those articles were few and far between.
With the advent of technology I know so much more about the our farm system right down to the lowest level. Also can get a fair idea of all other 29 teams farm systems. When trades are rumored you can take a look at what some team might have that would be a good fit.
Take Beltran for example. I’m sure the FO had all stats available to see what they could get back in a trade for Carlos. Sure beats just having to rely on scouts flying all over the country to report back. Not saying scouts are not necessary but technology sure does make everyone’s job easier – and probably a little more accurate.
The trade involving Seaver: along with us Met fans saying: ‘Who?’ on those 4 players coming back, today we’d be able to ‘What? These guys stink. We should have been able to do better than that’.
Without modern day technology, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy all 162 games televised in real time – along with any other game I care to watch. Certainly heightens my enjoyment as a fan.
Yeah man back in the 70′s you had to wait for baseball digest to come out before you got a farm report or when you bought a Met yearbook at Shea.Now you can even watch the minor league games for 20 bucks a year on milb.tv,best 20 bucks you can spend if you want to watch the future of the Mets.
I still remember that Seaver trade like it just happened.They were in the Astrodome when they announced the trade.All I knew of was Pat Zachary and a little about Doug Flynn.I knew nothing about Dan Norman or Steve Henderson.Norman was supposed to be a big time prospect and he sucked,Hendu was a Decent player,he battled Andre Dawson for R.O.Y. and had the same batting stance as Dawson.Too bad that’s the only similarities.Maybe if we had some saber stats we could’ve gotten back something better than what we ended up with.
If that’s the case than why did Sandy Alderson have such a horrendous off season last year and why have Billy Beane’s teams gotten progressively worse?
OR
That was 1977 and pretty much the beginning of a lot of bad years for the Mets so maybe the scout/scouts/people who advised the Mets who to get for Seaver were just not good at evaluating talent.
Or
You can believe it’s just as easy as how you say it is, which I highly doubt.
And to be honest, tell me how Sandy Alderson had a bad offseason:
-Chris Capuano was a solid pickup.
-Ronny Paulino was decent (better than Mike Nickeas, that’s for sure).
-Tim Byrdak was much better than the injured Pedro Feliciano in 2011 (who I’m sure you lobbied for the Mets to re-sign last offseason, am I right?) and the Mets got a draft pick on top of that which they used on a pitcher with really high upside in Michael Fulmer.
-Chris Young was good in 4 starts before he got hurt, but he cost almost nothing to sign. It was a small risk but it didn’t hurt them.
-Scott Hairston was a really solid power hitting bench piece and played all over the outfield.
-Willie Harris wasn’t great offensively but at least he was versatile and played good D in the outfield.
-Pedro Beato was mediocre but he’s got a lot of potential if the Mets give him some time in the minors next season.
-Taylor Buchholz was excellent for 2 months before depression axed his season.
-Isringhausen was a savior early on and ended up having a decent year for pennies on the dollar.
The only really bad pickup was DJ Carrasco, who only cost 1.2 million dollars in 2011 and 2012. Let’s be real here…that’s not exactly going to kill the Mets anytime soon. And if you’re going to kill the front office over Brad Emaus (42 plate appearances), Blaine Boyer (6.2 innings) and other guys who had NO IMPACT on the big league roster, then you’re really cherry-picking. In fact, I can point you towards a TON of Omar Minaya signings in 2010 ALONE that had a bigger negative impact on the team.
And I’d love to see who YOU would’ve signed last offseason but apparently, you’re too embarrassed to show me. Oh well.
He’ll have Vinny B set up a list of players in no time.
I was 4 when the Mets won in ’69 and have the same kind of vague memories of that as you did of ’86. I grew up on the ’69 and ’73 highlight films that I never experienced firsthand. Except I had to wait for a rain delay for Channel 9 to show them–but it rained a lot. Here’s to you getting your championship like I finally got mine in 1986. And I’ll be pretty damned happy for yours when it finally comes. If I live long enough…
ha, thanks silverman!
I was 3 in 69 and have zero recolection of the 69 series.I just remember the ruckus in my house from my uncles in the house screaming at the TV.73 ws a different story.I was 7 in 73 and remember that series pretty well.I remember that ball that went through Milan’s legs,I remember Reggies HR,I remember the fireworks going off after the last out of game 7.I cried for God knows how long.There was something special about that 73 team even though they lost the series that stretch run the end of the season is what got me so into baseball.
I have no problems with what your said Jessup…
You know what dissapoints me though?
What you didn’t SAY!
The next step in what would be your evolution.
The idea that YOU can be as smart as Daniels and Epstein, Take the next step and use the technology to look at the Sabers, Find the flaws and try to correct them to perfect the Metrics and maybe find what Theo and Jon have not found!
I once said something similar to Xtreem when we had our first big battles on OBP.
Both of you had an open enough mind to accept that technology can have purpose but you seemed hesitant to EXTEND it’s use, look for new concepts, and instead seem quite content to just accept the status quo as the best there is without challenge!
It is not much different than what the staunch traditionalists do in my opinion.
Our debates and my posts that question Sabers have nothing to do with using them, looking at them or even believing in them!
My questions to those who use them and technology is simple and based on the following.
Technology is a tool not a proof. If you bias what goes into the technology what comes out will be biased as well!
Math (which is what the technology calculates for you) will always come up with the answer to the math you created. But it will only be the right answer if the calculation you asked it to make is a good mathematical representation of the question your trying to answer!
As I have said many times (and I’ll use as an example here)
OBP is supposed to answer the Question “Is this guy a good Batter?”
Is OBP whose math takes and awards a batter based on events he does not control a good mathematical representation of what a Batter CAN do?
Many accept it as the BEST and maybe it is better than BA in some way because it includes more PA but it is that over inclusion that gives him credit for HBP and IBB and a MINUS for other plus acts that get included and not plussed correctly!
If we want to grow and if we truly WANT to use technology we should have an open mind and confidence that ANYONE can rate, pro-rate events a batter can have happen that tells you what HE did not what someone else gave him.
The Technology is only as good as we are and it does not know what philosophy of thinking is correct or in error!
If those who like spreadsheets want traditional folks to open their mind then they themselves should open theirs as well, Look at the metric math and perfect it so that these anomolies that many traditional people see in the metrics go away and give them more confidence to trust the new metrics.
Sabers and OBP were invented BECAUSE things like BA (which when you look at it is calculated in much the SAME WAY as Sabers (OBP) is only including fewer events) seemed to not take things into account it maybe should have.
It’s not much different than if it took things into account it should not! (like OBP does) Somewhere in between is TRUTH especially in regards to BATTER evaluation.
If we want to keep on growing we ALL (trad and Sabers) have to question EVERYTHING until the math and equations are correct and have no problems that can be exploited or make the technology come up with the wrong answer!
Daniels and Epstein do not know anything more about statistical representation than you do!
And if you believe they do then the people who argue when you try and use them might just be as smart as them! Or at least smarter than you!
Excel spreadsheets certainly doesn’t know more about baseball than you do!
So I challenge all the guys who like Sabers to not just BUY what you read, LOOK at what they do. Challenge them to see if they can’t be improved and then USE the technology to see if you can’t find an even better way!
But to just accept the metrics AS IS without any look at how they are created is as closed minded an approach than someone who just looks at BA and other traditionals!
If Bill James had taken your stance that THATS IT we got it ALL right, Sabers would never have been invented!
Be more like Bill James!
Be more SKEPTICAL!
Be more CREATIVE!
Look for the problems with established Metrics and try to IMPROVE THEM!
Use technology to ease the work burden!
But make sure what went into the technology is the right mathematical question to ask!
Cause if it is your not going to get the answer to the question you wanted to ask, Technology only gives you the answer you mathematically asked it to answer and your original question and the mathematical question might actually be two different questions if your not careful when you translate into math!
Thats all I am asking the Saber folks to do here!
Don’t just sort the column…Check the math OF the column too!
If you did you might find how RBOE gets valued more in WAR, how the Pitcher can inflate the supposed skill of a batter merely by hitting him with a pitched ball and then you too might see that even as far as you think sabers have advanced the game of baseball and statistical analysis, You would realize we still have a LONG LONG WAY to go!
And if we won’t grow and continue down that path then Sabers will be as bad as traditionals in time!
Until someone takes that challenge of the STATUS QUO and looks for a more accurate statistical model to use!
I’m out of breath just from reading this, you must be exhausted from having written it!
seriously though, reading his post, it sounds like he is advocating exactly what you are asking. Question the status quo, and look for new (or improved) ways of looking at the numbers the game is built on.
Evolve or get left behind, and always look for the next trick to give you an edge. the game has been like this since the beginning, even without looking at numbers.
hey, some manager must have been the first to use a platoon, right? Maybe he did it based on his gut (what he was seeing), or maybe he did look at BA, etc. splits. And frankly, if it was a good idea, it really doesn’t matter what reason they decided to try it.
haha it was long right? When I read it, I had to go use the restroom.
I’m kidding Metsie
Oh Metsie…your posts are hilarious. Thanks for writing the equivalent of a book just to inform us that while advanced metrics are okay, we should be looking for something new to use.
Who says:
October 24, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Geez…what an a**hole-ish comment”
so is ok for you to attack me when i say something to jesseP yet you do the same to metsie about his hour long comment and is all fine? you’re comical you know, not once have you come to this article to make a comment about baseball, you came here to attacke me and my post and know do the same with metsie. stop stalking ppl and blog about baseball ok. joe D should start shutting down commenters like you who do nothing but stalk others
Stalk? Don’t flatter yourself, bub.
You weren’t making a comment about baseball…you were ripping apart who his favorite player was and then telling him everything he wrote about statistics was misleading people. That’s called instigating.
Wow you know it’s comments like your that makes this site so special!
Please add something or just read what smarter people than you have to say so maybe you can make better posts in the future!
The difference?
you believe Traditionals are the status quo!
I say SABERS are!
Short enough for you two?
And please tell me something…
Does Daniels or Epstein know better than you what a good and bad act are in baseball?
Do they know something about the collected stats that you can’t figure out?
Do they have a better grasp of Math than you do?
“The difference?
you believe Traditionals are the status quo!
I say SABERS are!”
“status quo” is Latin for “the way in which” and loosely translates to “how things are”.
So, no, sabermetrics are not the status quo.
“Does Daniels or Epstein know better than you what a good and bad act are in baseball?”
One would hope so.
“Do they know something about the collected stats that you can’t figure out?
Do they have a better grasp of Math than you do?”
Maybe, maybe not. But they do have more knowledge and experience running a baseball team, which involves so much more than crunching numbers.
Ahh so your statistical and argumentative approach relies on HOPE!
I see! Explains you pretty well then!
You use Sabers and HOPE your right!
But you don’t really KNOW your right because you swallow anything you read in a book!
…wow…I have no idea how you got that.
“Ahh so your statistical and argumentative approach relies on HOPE!”
No, I was being a bit facetious. You asked if Daniels or Epstein are better than jessep or myself or anyone here at knowing “what a good and bad act are in baseball”. I am guessing that means evaluating talent I said one would hope so because, well, they are being paid very well to do just that. Or at least manage people who do that.
There’s a ton here Metsie. “You know what dissapoints me though? What you didn’t SAY!”
To be fair if I said everything you said, it would have been a 2 page blog… bazinga!
Okay on to my replies
“The idea that YOU can be as smart as Daniels and Epstein, Take the next step and use the technology to look at the Sabers, Find the flaws and try to correct them to perfect the Metrics and maybe find what Theo and Jon have not found!”
I believe that what Jon Daniels and Theo know about sabermetrics and how they relate to their own teams are totally unknown to both you and I. Like I said, I refuse to believe that Epstein logs onto fangraphs.com and just finds players based on their data. They have data analysts for a reason.
As I’ve said many times, I prefer SLG % over OBP when determining “how good a hitter is”
I totally disagree with “Daniels and Epstein do not know anything more about statistical representation than you do!” They likely do know more about it because they have analysts who feed them reports that I do not have.
It is funny that I get labeled a saber-whatever because “If you did you might find how RBOE gets valued more in WAR” I have no idea what RBOE is and I feel like if I was a saberwhatever, I would?
When I look to see what type of player I want the Mets to get as a fan, I look at the following things: BA, HR, RBI, SB, OBP, SLG, OPS, Home/Road Splits and for a pitcher I look at W-L/ERA/WHIP/Home/Road Splits/GB/FB Ratio/K/BB/BABIP.
I’ll read what others have to say with regard to what they themselves look at, for example if somebody tells me what a players VORP is, I’ll read it. But I’m not going looking for a players VORP to figure out if I want him to play 2B for the Mets.
If those “evaluation” techniques label me a “saberwhatever” then I have to be the most non-saberwhatever that ever lived.
Just for the record, I don’t think any sabermetrically inclined person has used the statistic “VORP” since about 2005. That stat was effectively replaced by WAR many years ago.
It was replaced WAR….not necessarily effectively.
Thank you Xtreem! Precisely my point!
yes War replaced VORP, Is it actually better? Is it accurate at all
Enquiring minds will ask but most people who use Sabers don’t question the stat, just spout them!
I would like to see people look deeper than the column and I am convinced from many of the arguments that they don’t!
They just do the sort and wait for someone else they believe to tell them NO this is better, not chech how FACTUAL the facts really are!
“Enquiring minds will ask but most people who use Sabers don’t question the stat, just spout them!”
That is completely false. The fact that there are at least 3 different widely accepted ways to express a player’s total value shows that there is no consensus and people are indeed questioning the statisitics. There are also people within the sabermetrics community (like the guys who run the baseball prospectus podcast) who don’t believe in using one “magic bullet” to judge all players.
The whole point of the sabermetrics movement is constantly question how production is measured and valued.
Your strawmen have been debunked time and time again, yet you insist on using them without a shred of proof to support them.
Again, when you have to lie about the facts to support your own position, you need to reconsider your position.
The whole point of the sabermetrics movement is constantly question how production is measured and valued.
Why is this so important for average baseball fans? What do you do with all this info once you have it? Is this for fantasy GM baseball games? Unless you are an actual baseball gm I dont get this obsession with all these formulas and what it has to do with watching the games and rooting for your team.
You don’t have to get it. Enjoy the game anyway you please.
I just ask you afford me the same courtesy.
hey, there is a long off season. Have to do something to pass the time.
Oh absolutely, please enjoy. I was just curious to know if I was missing something because it seems to be talked about all over the Mets sites especially this one. You seemed to be a big proponent so I just thought I’d ask.
Lets go Mets!
I suppose I am.
As to if you are missing something: meh. It’s about personal preference. If you aren’t interested in it, then no, you aren’t missing anything.
To be honest, when watching a game, I live in the moment. Despite what some people want to paint myself and others as, I don’t watch the game with a spreadsheet and scientific calculator. If I’m at the game, I’ll have a scorecard going, but that’s about it. And it’s usually wrecked by the 6th inning anyway.
I don’t care about FIP, ERA, OBP, RBI or anything. The only time I think about stats during the game is during pitching changes or DAMN BUNTING!
Outside of those 9 innings, then yes, I prefer to use advanced stats. But I don’t demand that everyone else do the same. I just ask that I be allowed to enjoy it the way I see fit.
After all, we’re talking about a bunch of grown men playing with a ball. there’s no need for hostility.
Thanks for reading and commenting Diana!
Yeah well think about that the next time you mentions OBP in regards to his batting prowess and don’t question the fact it included HBP as a batter accomplishment!
You are exactly the type of person I was referring to!
You SPOUT things but have little clue as to what they contain and tell you!
Baseball’s all time HBP leader, Barry Bonds, had it happen less than 10% of his PAs.
In 584 PAs in 2011, Jose Reyes was not HBP once.
Danny Espinosa led the NL with 19. That is in 658 PAs. That is less than 3%.
Maybe you should in fact know what you are talking about.
Oh so because it includes a LOW PERCENTAGE of Not Batter Attributable stats it’s ok to count them as batter plusses?
Thats your defense of including HBP?
Whats the percentage of Sac’s is that too HIGH to include?
Why did you?
Sac flies are a lucky accident. No they don’t get credit for it.
Sac bunt? Meh. You’re more than welcome to figure out their OBP without HBP and Sac bunt. I doubt you’ll see huge deviations.
yeah never mind that some hitters make adjustments at the plate, depending on the situation, to try and hit a flyball deep enough to score a run.
and yet ANOTHER case where a saberhead just looks at a stat on paper, in this case the sac fly, and comes to a broad general conclusion. It takes no baseball insight or knowledge to do that.
No, if you are up there trying to make an out, please sit down. Position players should be up there trying to get a hit every plate appearance.
and how on earth would I come to that conclusion just looking at a stat sheet? That statement makes no sense at all.
Agreed. If a batter is trying to MAKE AN OUT by hitting a sacrifice fly, that’s even worse than trying to take a walk. All batters should be AND ARE trying to get a hit every time they come to the plate.
Well – Breaking News…
There are hitters who DO adjust their approach and try to hit sac flies in that situation and their are hitters who DO try to hit the ball to the right side with runner on 2B depending on the situation.
That is how baseball works.
It’s not just “get up there and get a hit”…baseball is much more than that. It’s also a game of strategy and sometimes just going up there to “get a hit” as odd as it sounds..is not the approach a hitter goes with. Sometimes they are up there doing what they have to do according to what the situation dictates.
and one more thing..
It doesn’t mean they’re not trying to get a hit. These are talented athletes who should be able to adapt to whatever situation is there and ALSO depending on the pitcher AND the situation..making an adjustment to get a sac FB if the situation calls for it..or purposely swinging late depending on the circumstances (pitcher, runner on 2B, etc.) a player can still get a hit while performing with those adjustments.
Sorry to tell you saber people but it’s not all just go up there to try and get a hit and a walk. REAL baseball is much deeper than that.
So, they aren’t trying to make an out except when they are? And a bunch of stuff that you think other people don’t know and has nothing to do with what we are discussing?
OK. Good talk.
If a hitter is trying to make an out, they are really really dumb and I do not want them on my team. Case closed.
Outs are bad. You only have 27 in a game and 3 per inning. The batter should be trying to get a hit every time he comes up. If the pitcher doesn’t throw strikes, he should take the balls and take a walk. It’s as simple as that. Don’t expand the zone…force the pitcher to throw you strikes so you can get hits. That should be the plan of every good hitter.
The hitter is trying to adjust to the situation.
Depending on the score it may be in the best interest of winning the game to approach an AB with a certain plan.
I’m sure i’m not breaking any new ground here or informing the readers who understand that there are situations where a hitter may be trying to get the ball into the air rather than hit it on the ground, and DEPENDING on what you need to win at that time it’s happens all the time.
in best Frankenstein monster voice….”Outs bad, getting on base good”
So that’s the new philosophy huh? Never mind all the stuff in between right? And I have some heffer who’s sole contribution to anything baseball related is a weak and failed attempt at a podcast. And he’s gonna sit there tell me about baseball.
Yeah, hitters never adapt to a strategic situation – just go up there and hit away all the time – no thinking needed.
I don’t think anybody goes to the plate to try and hit a sac fly,they go to the plate in that situation to drive the ball and at the very least hit a ball deep enough so that if it is caught the runner can still score.I have never played with anybody that said I’m going up there to try and hit a sac fly,that would be worst case scenario.
Bayonne–I could do the same Frankenstein voice saying “me want outs…getting on base bad” but that wouldn’t make sense, because getting on base is quite the opposite of bad.
In fact, what happened before the batter hit the sacrifice fly? The guy on the bases GOT ON BASE.
This isn’t rocket science here. You say that getting on base isn’t important but you can’t even THINK of beginning to score any runs without getting on base. A walk is getting on base. A single is getting on base. A solo home run is getting on base. If nobody got on base, no runs would score. Simple as that…it’s so painfully simple and yet you deny it. You need baserunners to score runs. The end.
Yeah and HBP are not LUCKY ACCIDENTS right?
How many HBP drove in a run last year?
Lots of Sac Fly’s did!
And this bull crap of your that someone tries to make an out just shows how immature you are as a poster and a debater!
No the batter does NOT go up there trying to make an out he goes up there TRYING TO SCORE A RUN!
Whatever it takes to do that not jusat takes the walk and pass the responsibility to the next guy like your OBP guy does!
HBP does not hurt your team’s chances of scoring more runs. Making an out does.
Again, if you want to discount Sac Bunt and HBP from OBP, fine. It’s not a bad idea, actually.
But, don’t act like making an out takes skill.
HBP most certainly does hurt your team with one out and runner on 3rd!
It sets up the DP that ends the inning stopping the run from scoring!
So, a baserunner at no cost hurts your team? Really? You don’t want to rethink that?
“It sets up the DP that ends the inning stopping the run from scoring!”
No, the ground ball at the fielder hurts the team. You don’t punish the runner because the hitter didn’t do his job.
Otherwise, by your logic, all base runners hurt their team.
On day when you grow up you will learn situational baseball!
and get what it is people are telling you!
Baseball is about taking advantage of your opportunities not squandering them in favor of OBP!
The GOAL is for each player to achieve and do something that helps his team.
If what he does can HURT his team he did not ACHIEVE!
If you think it is a HELP to the team then why do Pitchers intentionally walk batters with a runner on third and one out?
Why do these BASEBALL PEOPLE you HOPE are SMARTER than you do those things?
Is it because they ARE smarter than you and understand situational baseball and that by that guy not getting a hit and instead only getting OB allows them to play at DP depth where it is harder to get a hit than if the base was empty and they had to play the IF in?
You wouldn’t know that because you don’t follow the game your too busy calculating a stat and there is no stat kept for IF at DP depth after walking a guy to get the DP and make it harder for the batter to score the run!
He has fewer options because what YOU THINK (AND HOPE) was a good act from a batter when in most cases it isn’t!
“On day when you grow up you will learn situational baseball!”
And one day you’ll learn that being an arrogant twit does not hide your ignorance, but rather magnifies it.
“Baseball is about taking advantage of your opportunities not squandering them in favor of OBP!”
Again, you are obsessed with OBP. Be concerned with scoring the most runs you can in your 27 outs.
“The GOAL is for each player to achieve and do something that helps his team.”
Ya, thanks. that was established a long time ago.
“If what he does can HURT his team he did not ACHIEVE!”
Yes, I know. That’s why sac flies are not a good thing.
“If you think it is a HELP to the team then why do Pitchers intentionally walk batters with a runner on third and one out?”
Because they are married to the old ways they were taught. Humans do that. We prefer the comfort of familiarity.
“Why do these BASEBALL PEOPLE you HOPE are SMARTER than you do those things?”
Because they are either too entrenched in certain habits (like IBBs and bunts) or they haven’t fully transitioned everyone else away from the ideas yet. Things like that take time.
“Is it because they ARE smarter than you and understand situational baseball and that by that guy not getting a hit and instead only getting OB allows them to play at DP depth where it is harder to get a hit than if the base was empty and they had to play the IF in?”
They choose to play with the IF in. There is no rule stating you have to take any positional alignment at anytime.
And again,if they do turn a double play, that is on the hitter, not the runners (provided the runners haven’t done something really stupid)
Just out of curiosity, how frequently does that strategy work? How often do they get the DP after the IBB to prevent the run from scoring? I think that is important before continuing this discussion.
“You wouldn’t know that because you don’t follow the game ”
You’re right. I have no interest in baseball what so ever. I just chose to look at the numbers and see how they apply to the game on a drunken dare.
“your too busy calculating a stat and there is no stat kept for IF at DP depth after walking a guy to get the DP and make it harder for the batter to score the run!”
In fact, there have been studies about the success rate of the IBB to draw the double play and it’s been found that it does more harm than good to the defense. You’re better off pitching to each hitter.
If you don’t have faith in your pitcher to get the important outs, then why is he on the mound?
“He has fewer options because what YOU THINK (AND HOPE) was a good act from a batter when in most cases it isn’t!”
What options? He’s up there to get a hit no matter what. In fact, by walking the previous batter, you are providing him with a greater opportunity.
“learn that being an arrogant twit does not hide your ignorance”
I’ll learn that the day after you do hows that?
You don’t see me sniping and making snide remarks to everyone else’s posts and you never see YOU making any point on your own just giving reviews on everyone else’s thoughts!
I have to assume it is because you have no THOUGHTS of your own just OPINIONS on users!
And I hope Joe sees that someday and acts appropriatly!
“I’ll learn that the day after you do hows that?”
That was just so lame.
“You don’t see me sniping and making snide remarks to everyone else’s posts”
Yes, you do. When you start a post with “one day when you grow up” or “what you sabers fail to understand about baseball” are snide remarks attempting to degrade the person you are addressing. To deny that is just another one of your lies.
” you never see YOU making any point on your own just giving reviews on everyone else’s thoughts!”
Your reading failures are not my fault nor my problem.
“I have to assume it is because you have no THOUGHTS of your own just OPINIONS on users!”
Feel free to keep proving you don’t read the posts of the people you are addressing.
And everything you have ever posted is Lame…what was your point exactly?
Obviously not. Of course they don’t go up there thinking “I’m going to try and hit a sac fly”
sigh…..
You go up there with the mind set that you are trying to hit the bal in the air and far. Anyways we’re starting to leave baseball and enter semantics (SMH)…anyway this was the one statement that started all this:
Donal says:
October 24, 2011 at 3:34 pm
“Sac flies are a lucky accident. No they don’t get credit for it.”
And that’s just simply false. Case Closed. This part of the thread is now over and it’s time to move on.
No they go up there thinking how can I get that guy on third to score!
Not how can I increase my OBP so Jon Daniels will calaculate me top be good!
“Obviously not. Of course they don’t go up there thinking “I’m going to try and hit a sac fly””
then stop contradicting it. And stop trying to derail the discussion with your strawmen.
“And that’s just simply false. Case Closed. This part of the thread is now over and it’s time to move on.”
Objection! You aren’t any sort of authority.
The fact that the batter does something negative (make an out) that the runner turns into a positive (score a run) is what makes it a lucky accident.
Sigh…still running conversations in circles I see…
You have a very warped credit system.
Scoring the run is the goal. ONLY YOU value getting on base which is easy to do happens about one third of all PA!
Scoring the run is the goal in baseball and when you learn that you will see how weak your little circle jerking arguments hold up!
Scoring runs. Plural. You are trying to score as many runs as possible. Fly ball outs hurt that goal. Getting on base without making an out furthers that goal.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to say that getting on base hurts you. I guess you believe the old Jeff Francoeur line that “home runs kill rallies” too, right?
Just totally stupid.
Metsie…you say that if the guy gets hit by a pitch and you have runners at 1st and 3rd, what if the guy hits into a double play. Well, that’s not the only outcome available in that situation. Let me counter it by saying what if the guy at the plate with 1st and 3rd hits a home run? What if he hits a double in the gap that scores 2 runs? What if he singles through the hole and knocks in the run AND you still have 1st and 3rd to knock in more runs.
Playing for one run is playing scared. You don’t play scared…you let your batters take their hacks with runners on base. Runner at 3rd and the batter gets plunked? GOOD! More runners on base for my hitters to knock in.
I’m firmly of the belief that if you play for one, you’ll more than likely end up with none. It happens too often. Bunting is just showing a lack of confidence in your hitters by taking that bat out of their hands.
Again these guys speak in absolutes without regard to the fact that there are all types of different situations in baseball that dictate what to do. Not just getting up there swinging all the time.
If a hot hitter is plunked with a runner on 3B and a cold hitter is up next than it could be a BAD thing too because the guy could hit into a DP. It all depends on the personnel involved and where you are in the game. Every knowledgeable baseball fan knows that.
Why do you think teams intentionally walk guys?????? I guess that makes the saber crowd happy simply because another guy is on base just for the sake of being on base. Forget strategy.
And if the game is tied 2-2 in the bottom of the 8th with a runner on 3B and 1 out and Ike Davis up with, lets say, Angel Pagan up next I’m hoping he can get one in the air that can at least be a sac fly and put the team ahead. If it goes out great, if the outfielder drops it great, and so on.
That’s a case where it could be BAD if the hitter walks with a runner on 3B and it’s late in the game. But you won’t know until the sequence is done. Than the saber guys can second guess it after the fact.
If you’re facing a tough Roy Halladay and he’s on his game and it’s late in the game you may just HAVE TO PLAY FOR ONE RUN and use some strategy and depending on who is at bat you may have to make an adjustment to poke the ball through the right side or you just MAY HAVE TO BUNT!
yes, bunt. Now I KNOW that the parrot and who have never ever been in a dugout and have had to actually make decisions that after the outcome of a game but yes managers do do that and bunting when necessary, and hitters making adjustments to hit the ball in the air when it’s called for is necessary. That’s baseball.
No scoring OPPORTUNITIES!
Ask any baseball player if he has a runner on 3rd with 1 out does he think a Walk is a success!
See what answer you get!
Only OBP loving fools like you think OB OK! You did the greatest thing you can do in baseball!
Baseball players and most Managers do not agree!
“Only OBP loving fools like you think OB OK! You did the greatest thing you can do in baseball!”
That would in fact be a home run. I’ve told you that many many times before, but you keep saying otherwise.
Stop lying.
But you team has no HR Hitters all they have are High OB guys!
You credited a batter with being a TARGET not a HITTER!
Maybe if he was going to drive in the run and hit something to the OF it would go over the fence instead of getting hit by a pitch and set up the DP!
I’m not lying child you are!
Lying about what you think is great one minute and then changing it when you get backed into a corner you can’t get out of for saying it!
“Again these guys speak in absolutes without regard to the fact that there are all types of different situations in baseball that dictate what to do. Not just getting up there swinging all the time.”
And you don’t speak in absolutes? Stop it already.
And yes, being a swinging machine is bad. I’m glad to see you embracing drawing a walk.
“If a hot hitter is plunked with a runner on 3B and a cold hitter is up next than it could be a BAD thing too because the guy could hit into a DP. It all depends on the personnel involved and where you are in the game. Every knowledgeable baseball fan knows that.”
If you are not confident in the guy at bat, then he shouldn’t be at bat. Otherwise, you’ve got a whole other world of problems.
“Why do you think teams intentionally walk guys??????”
Fear of change
“I guess that makes the saber crowd happy simply because another guy is on base just for the sake of being on base. Forget strategy.”
Have you ever actually tried to find out how well that strategy, you know, works? Or do you just assume its good because it’s all you know?
“that’s the way we’ve always done it” is a stupid reason to continue doing anything.
“If you’re facing a tough Roy Halladay and he’s on his game and it’s late in the game you may just HAVE TO PLAY FOR ONE RUN ”
Oh, hell, no.
When you’ve got a guy like Halladay, you make the most of every opportunity. You don’t just surrender outs and make his job even easier.
“yes, bunt. Now I KNOW that the parrot and who have never ever been in a dugout and have had to actually make decisions that after the outcome of a game but yes managers do do that and bunting when necessary, and hitters making adjustments to hit the ball in the air when it’s called for is necessary.”
That makes 2 of us. You’ve never been involved in a meaningful game, Al Bundy. So don’t act like you have some special sacred knowledge.
” That’s baseball.”
That is losing baseball. And I’ll gladly leave it to you and Jerry Manuel.
“But you team has no HR Hitters all they have are High OB guys!”
I’m sorry…what?
“You credited a batter with being a TARGET not a HITTER!”
I credited him with not being an out
“Maybe if he was going to drive in the run and hit something to the OF it would go over the fence instead of getting hit by a pitch and set up the DP!”
Or maybe the next hitter gets an extra base hit and now you have 2 runs without sacrificing an out.
“I’m not lying child you are!”
Oh, that is just so mature.
“Lying about what you think is great one minute and then changing it when you get backed into a corner you can’t get out of for saying it!”
I have always maintained hitting a home run is the single best thing a batter can do.
“I’m sorry…what?”
What threw you the english?
Would it be better for you to comprehend if I spoke in your native baby gibberish?
No, the outright lie threw me. When you have to build your argument on a false premise, you’ve already lost. Attacking and lying about others to support it just digs your hole deeper.
You really would do yourself a favor by just keeping quiet and learning at this juncture.
In your childish world everything you disagree with and can’t disprove is a lie so I guess what I said qualifies!
The only one who you think doesn’t lie is your buddy Jessup and Who!
Then you wave your pom poms and put on your Insult skirt for anyone who replies against them!
Since you guys are on the subject of WAR.Does anybody know how that stat is calculated? How do they come up with numbers like a guy has a 5.8 WAR.Thats just a random number I threw out there.I saw an rWAR and a pWAR,is there a difference.If anybody knows I’d appreciate the help.
WAR depends on who you ask, to be honest. There are 3 main widely accepted sources. fWAR by fangraphs, bWAR by baseball reference, and VORP by Baseball prospectus. pWAR I guess refers to pitching WAR.
I miss the coverage. I am from Delaware and man they layed at least three games a day on network TV. Now you have to pay through the nose to get coverage like that. I was a Straw fan. I collected all of his cards except the really expensive one until like 93 or so. I still have them somewhere. Then I was on to Ventura before he was a Met. I felt like a trader even at the time but he played third like I did and he was a gamer. The good ol’ days. I like tech and new stats but miss the reckless days. This year seemed to hark back to the times of the hit and run and I liked it. The speed part of the game was always more exciting to me. I enjoy a triple more than a HR so I am weird. Baseball is a thinking mans game always has been always will be. The game has changed so many times that people from a 100 years ago would not even know what we are doing. It’s hard to believe that a pitcher wasn’t allowed to try and get a batter out when the game started.
thanks for your thoughts nathan!
I went from Ed Kranepool to Koozman to Staub to Hernandez, Dwight, Aguilera and Hojo, to Beltran on Mets. Rooted for G. Brett, Fred Lynn and even Bernie Williams.
I never looked at their OBP, Splits or anything else besides how they played the game and what they did for the team.
You have your reasons for liking your player as I do mine, just like teams. Not all Queens people are Mets fans and same thing in Bronx.
I was also a huge Lenny Dykstra fan, posters on my bedroom wall and all. What a letdown he turned out to be. I enjoyed your post.
thanks Diana!
Jessep,
You know, I always like reading pieces that give a little insight into the writer. It’s a minority position, but I like the emotional pieces and mentions of childhood… You know, all that sappy stuff. I always used to enjoy reading TieDyed’s pieces and Adam’s too.
Everyone here who reads/writes/comments is someone who just wants to see the Mets succeed. But beyond that, we all want to see them succeed in a certain way. For example, we all want to see them win, but I like shutouts, some guys like 9-8 slug fests, others like walk off HRs… Yeah?
The more passionate the debate, the more it seems that the people participating want the team to succeed – and they hold strong to their beliefs that they know the winning formula.
My only real problem here is that you’re coming off as if sabermetrics, because it is the result of an advancement of technology, is the best possible way to analyze a game. I get the logic behind that thinking – It’s like saying Windows 7 is a better system to use than Windows 98.
But, in my eyes, sabermetrics has shortcomings just as traditional stats do. I think a person who uses mainly saber analysis is arguing from the position of a GM only and sometimes… Well, forgets how to be a fan. If everybody in the world used only sabermetrics, we probably wouldn’t watch the games anymore. The balance and debate is necessary.
(NO, I’m not saying that saber people don’t watch games/don’t play baseball, etc. I know you just analyze the game differently than I do.)
Sabermetrics can’t be the end all, and obviously, most old times stats aren’t either. But when you start telling me if you get a team of 4 WAR/5 WAR players, you can guarantee me a World Series (That wasn’t YOU, personally, I mean any random saberguy), I just can’t sign on to that theory. There will always be a human element, luck, and some players outperforming/underperforming their expectations.
Oh, one thing.
The NFL? Look up ESPN’s Total QBR. I consider it the sabermetrics of football.
Thanks, I think what I’m mostly trying to say is that the game changes and the theories of how to build a successful franchise are changing every day. I believe the best front offices use a combination of old school and sabermetric principles. Not letting either one dictate, rather inform.
By the way re: NFL QBR. I stopped paying it any attention when I saw that last week Tim Tebow went 4-10 for 79yds, with 1 TD and his QBR was 83.2 compared to Aaron Rodgers who went 18-29, 316yds 3TD and 1INT which was an 82.1.
I think that’s the way most franchises are probably run these days – or should be, at least. If not, it’ll happen soon. There’s some use in both old school and sabermetric stuff. I just don’t like delving too much into saber analysis, but that’s a personal thing.
– In Week 5, there was that whole controversy. “Noting that Rodgers completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns in a win over the Atlanta Falcons, while Tebow completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown, and six rushes for 38 yards and a touchdown…”
The QBR incorporates rushing yards and the situation each QB is playing in. It also decreases with sacks or increases with no sacks. If a QB is playing from behind, and he ends up winning, even with less overall YDs, he gets a better rating. Personally, I think it’s crap. Lol.
I’m pretty sure Tebow’s QBR was 18.2 for the game. The QBR you cited was for his last four drives only. I could be wrong, but I’m ALMOST positive.
You’re right, I misread. You were talking about week 5 when he came in at the end. Satish is right, QBR is heavy into the time and situation and gave Tebow a high rating because he brought the team back and scored two TDs while doing it. I don’t get the whole thing, but I get that part.
“I think a person who uses mainly saber analysis is arguing from the position of a GM only and sometimes… Well, forgets how to be a fan. If everybody in the world used only sabermetrics, we probably wouldn’t watch the games anymore. The balance and debate is necessary.”
Why? We’ve judged players by their numbers since day 1. All sabermetrics are are new (and some of us maintain better) numbers. There’s no way you get into sabermetrics without being a fan.
Think about it, who in their right mind dedicates this much time to learn such a deep analysis of something they don’t love?
“If everybody in the world used only sabermetrics, we probably wouldn’t watch the games anymore.”
Why not? How does using a new way to evaluate the events of a game after it happened keep you from enjoying said game?
” But when you start telling me if you get a team of 4 WAR/5 WAR players, you can guarantee me a World Series (That wasn’t YOU, personally, I mean any random saberguy), I just can’t sign on to that theory.”
No one says that. At least, I hope no one does. Granted, there are people who think the best strategy is to just cut a biggest check to the biggest names you can get, but he’s not GMing the Mets anymore.
” There will always be a human element, luck, and some players outperforming/underperforming their expectations.”
But, the idea of player acquisition is so you have guys who make it so those freak occurrences don’t dictate your season. If your plan is to wait for some dope with really big earphones to knock away a foul ball from an opponent’s glove, then you’re doing it wrong.
“Oh, one thing.
The NFL? Look up ESPN’s Total QBR. I consider it the sabermetrics of football.”
QBR is a bad example. think about it, for Pujols to hit a home run, he’s really the only guy that has to perform. Lance Berkman isn’t out there cut blocking the center fielder. Phat Albert is the one planting it into the cheap seats.
Drew Brees, on the other hand, last night needed his whole offence to perform. He needed at least 4 guys blocking for him, he needed his receivers to run their routes, catch the ball, avoid tackles (or block tackles if their not carrying the ball), and even his running backs to get ground on running plays to keep the defense honest.
It is a lot easier to measure the individual performance of a baseball player.
Totally agreed.
Wow you bring back memories. One of the best we had as a family at Shea on Memorial Day sitting behind first base. The Mets won 12-4 (I think they played the Cubs) and Dave “Kong” Kingman loaded up and blasted a monster to right field. It must have been close to 450 feet. What a day, what a game-Beautiful!