20
2011
Are You REALLY Ok With Seeing Jose Reyes In Another Uniform?
An article by 
Will he stay or will he go. That is the question that has been asked all season. Since it is not yet a reality that he really may not be here next year, how do you think you would feel if he signed with another team?
Just think for a moment that he REALLY does not re-sign with us. Imagine him in a Red Sox, Giants, Nationals, and Marlins or even…………….dare I say Phillies uniform.
Picture hitting a line drive into the gap, flying around the bases, sliding headfirst into 3rd base while clapping his hands, yelling with excitement, pounding his chest, doing the CLAW, and pointing to the dugout after he just hit a triple at Citi Field……BUT it was off Mike Pelfrey and he is wearing a Philadelphia Phillies Jersey!
How about him playing shortstop and batting leadoff for the Marlins in a lineup with Hanley (who recently said he would change positions if they signed Reyes) and Mike Stanton batting behind him.
What about him in a Nationals Jersey on an up and coming team with young studs such as Bryce Harper, Strasburg and Ryan Zimmerman.
We keep talking about if he leaves can Tejada replace him, or are we or are we not going to be able to re-sign him. Oh he’s going to stay because he lovesNew Yorkand his family wants to stay.
The fact is that it is a very real possibility that he will not be here. I know we keep saying it, but I just don’t think people are realizing if he leaves there is a very real possibility that he will sign somewhere that will devastate us as a fan base and as a franchise.
Maybe people get it, I don’t know. What I do know is that I don’t want him to go. He is my favorite player and he is so much fun to watch. He’s a tremendous athlete, a great teammate and hell of a ball player. If he does leave this team we will not be better the day it happens.
Memo to everyone: We will not be a better or equally as a good team with Ruben Tejada at Shortstop.
The closer it gets to decision time for this the more nervous I get. It is extremely hard to find a great shortstop, almost as hard to find a good shortstop, and very difficult to even find an above average one right now. This is not a very easy position to fill and if he leaves we will see first hand. Just look how long the Red Sox have been looking for one, Alex Gonzalez, Marco Scutaro, Edgar Renteria, Jed Lowrie and so on.
Yes he has his flaws on the injury front, but having him for 120-130 games is much better than having Ruben Tejada for 160. There was a time when he played over 150 games for 4 straight seasons from 2005-2008 and I believe he can still play a healthy season. I don’t know about you guys but .337, 7 Hr 44 RBI, 39 SB, 31 2B and 16 3B over 130 games sounds better than .284, 15 2B and 36 RBI.
I don’t think I am alone with these thoughts, but I know that other people can make valid arguments as to why it may be better to let him walk. I agree that there is a limit I would pay for him too, but if it came down to him signing in Philly I just may have to outbid them not matter what.
To check out my blog come visit me at BigAppleMetsTalk or you can follow me on Twitter @BgAppleMetsTalk
About the Author: Dan Valis
I am a staff writer for Mets Merized Online. I am a Mets team analyst with a focus on the minor league system, as well as the major league club. I am a lifelong New Yorker who was born and raised to be a Mets fan. The ups and downs of being a Mets fan is what makes following this team so much fun, but at times so frustrating. You can follow me on Twitter @BgAppleMetsTalk.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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Memo to everyone: We will not be a better or equally as a good team with Ruben Tejada at Shortstop”
spot on.. but i think the team will be better if REYES & TEJADA are the middle infielders.. tejada at 2B with reyes at SS can be a VERY GOOD IF NOT THE BEST DEFENSIVE MIDDLE INFIELD IN ALL BASEBALL…
Maybe, maybe Reyes qualfies. Tedada never. You’re being unrealistic. Ruben might not even be a starter. And if our kids, and Havens, stay well, Ruben may not be a finisher.
“We will not be a better or equally as a good team with Ruben Tejada at Shortstop.”
Congratulations Dan. You just made the understatement of the year. But in fairness, Jose has few if any replacements. Jose can run, hit, field, terrorize and create mayhem. But Ruben can be out on the field almost every day, Jose increasingly can’t.
Ruben has to keep his swing short but still hit for some power. Can he?
If he signed with the Phillies I’d probably puke right where I would be standing when I find out. And my stomach would turn whenever I’d see him wearing those cotton candy vendor uniforms.
The only reason the Mets were among the top five in on-base, walks, hits and runs is because of the two best players of the 2011 season, Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes. We already fell off the cliff as soon as Beltran was traded, losing Reyes will send the Mets into the dark abyss where there’s no coming back from for 3-4 years. By then Wright will be on the wrong side of 30, Johan and Bay will be gone, and assuming they stick to their non-spending mode, our team will be mostly a product of the farm or prospects we traded for, much like the Royals and A’s.
ok joe D, if i would’ve made the same statement i’d have at least 5 or 6 thumbs down by the saberheads, but is you, let’s see how many thumbs down they’ll give you.. the sandy alderson’s apologist DO NOT WANNA HEAR IT.
“By then Wright will be on the wrong side of 30″
I agree with this but how come it doesn’t matter if Reyes is on the wrong side of 30? How come Reyes’ age doesn’t play as much of a factor to some people when we all know deep down that speed diminishes quicker in life than power. Don’t we?
How come it doesn’t seem to matter that the guy just won a batting championship that the AGE is key to everything you seem to want! MUST BE KIDS, MUST BE YOUNG, MUST BE CHEAP!
How did that work for Oakland?
Yeah they made the playoffs…Yankees who don’t kick to the curb guys who succeed and reach 30+ have three times as many!
I can’t WAIT till you reach 30 and have to deal with KIDS who nthink like you do!
That guy who thinks your not worth hiring because your washed up and can no longer do what you used to do when you were 20!
And then you will see and know just how STUPID that KID ONLY Attitude is!
And be the VICTIM of it!
I really can’t wait!
lmao @ NON-BALL PLAYERS trying to figure out why Jose will still be an effective hitter into his 30′s and Wright won’t be. Wright is a product of his batting order. He is a cherrypicking guess hitter who takes advantage of pitchers when they use their off-speed pitches to try and get batters out. Once the intimidation factor is removed from the order, Wright is left to his own skills to make the most out of his at bats.
Wright will only regress. Sure, he will post insignificant numbers, because he’s a selfish non-team player. He swings for the fences with men on, instead of playing for a single with runners in scoring position. Instead of making good solid fundamental contact, Wright is more concerned about his homerun totals. His stat line is what drives him.
Jose Reyes plays for the singles and doubles, because it’s his nature as a hitter. Wright fancies himself as a power hitter. It’s why his strikeout totals are HIDEOUS. Reyes will keep playing for his singles and doubles late into his career. Wright’s cherrypicking days are a thing of the past unless someone like Duda and/or Ike revert into upper echelon offensive talents like Piazza, Fonzy, Delgado and Beltran. Until then, Wright’s career will continue to disintegrate before your VERY biased eyes.
Funny how you reference biased eyes when your entire statement is completely biased. Wright is only one of the best players the Mets have ever had. But yeah he is so selfish and Reyes isn’t. Stupid statement, all baseball players can be seen as selfish.
omar, funny how speed diminishes and power doesn’t. last 3 years wright’s power have dipped like crazy, yet jess-e wanna keep sh***** on reyes…
So alex if I said this statement
“In the vast majority of cases, as a player gets older, his power diminishes faster than his speed.”
You would say that statement is true? Really?
Really? He hit 29 homeruns last year, and this year hit 14 homeruns while playing a month with a fractured back and sat out for 50+ games.
The only year his hr numbers were down was 09, that is ONE year not Three – is that the new math?
Funny how protect Reyes so much, and only talk about his batting title, yet did you forget how he was bench in 07 for NOT hustling while Willie was manager, or how about the day in the middle of the game he threw his mitt down in a temper tantrum because he committed an error.
It was widely discussed that HE quit on the team when his buddy Carlos Gomez saw less and less time.
So lets not paint Reyes as the next Pontiff now……..
How about the groundball that was 2 feet to his left that got by him in LA after the allstar break in 2010 because by his own admission he wasn’t paying attention or earlier this year at home against the same Dodgers he got picked off 1st by a catcher that just lobbed the ball to 1B and he was out because he was walking back to 1B and wasn’t paying attention.
I love watching Reyes play baseball.He’s the most exciting player we’ve ever had but lets be fair here.He’s not the most instinctive MFer on the field.He still makes the same baserunning mistakes he did as a rookie and he’s a 9 year veteran.He’s not perfect.Both Reyes and Wright have been the face of the franchise for almost a decade and neither one stepped up in those final 2 weeks in 07 and 08 against the freakin Marlins and Nationals.
If they bring Reyes back fine,I’ll be happy,then I want to see Wright traded.If someone comes along and blows Reyes away with a 7 year deal for huge money and the Mets decide pass,I will not shed a tear.We may take a step back next year but the way the last 5 years have turned out,I’m ready for a total overhaul.I have been since the end of 2008.
REBUILD IT SANDY!
“How about the groundball that was 2 feet to his left…”
Nit Pick much?
How about the time he was the Batting Champion? That doesn’t trump one MISSED Ground ball?
It wasn’t a physical error that all players make including the best SS I’ve ever seen Ozzie Smith,it’s the fact that he wasn’t paying attention and never reacted to the ball.The ball went into the outfield before he knew it was hit and by his own admission he wasn’t paying attention.That’s inexcusable on a major league diamond.
That’s not nit picking when that run cost them the game.Getting picked off in the same way for not paying attenton and a catcher just lobbing the ball to 1B as he was walking back to 1B from his lead.Jose is a great player,no doubt about it but if he got into a debate with a foot long sabrett,he’d lose.
To me winning is all that matters,I don’t get into who wins BA titles,RBI titles,HR’s.I want a division title.God bless him he won a BA title but we finished 4th.
Oh please Mental erros happen to great players all the time!
You just happened to see one and remember it!
Humans make mistakes from time to time that why we put erasers on pencils!
Almost all players have something they do wrong. Jose has had some flaky plays, no question about it. Nobody harps or dwells on them because overall the package is there. We all know what Joe Diaz is talking about. We’ve all seen it with our own eyes. Somethings you have to live with in a player. If Wright hadn’t been ready when the pitch was thrown we’d hear about it 15 times a day for years on end, with Jose it’s just a quirk that shows up here and there.
The batting titles nice and I’m real happy for Jose, he deserves it. Now his name will always be mentioned with the elite of his nation and considering how many Dominicans have been spectacular Major Leaguers that’s really saying something but I’m most interested in a TEAM that wins titles, Division, NLCs’s and World Series. I’d go 5 years, vesting option, I’d probably go 6 guaranteed years but I wouldn’t do 7 because even 6 is getting into risky territory. 6 year deal includes his age 34 season. That’s where I’m leaving it unless Jose Gives us a 7th year for free.
Personally I think Jose would make the most money taking a 5 year deal now with a promise not to offer arbitration and hitting free agency again at 33. I’d even give him a player option for a 6th year at a low base say 10 M that he could exercise if he needed to come back from injury or something or you could make the 6th year a vesting 25 M dollar one but that’s where I draw the line.
If it’s about 7/150 no matter how great he is, how much we enjoy seeing him play, root for him and want to see his number on our wall for all time, it’s just too much of a risk. I’ll risk his age 34 season if an option vests or at half price if his value goes down for some reason but I am not guaranteeing both his 34 and his 35 year old season.
Hitting free agency again at age 33 with no comp picks due will be the biggest double dip in MLB free agent history. 5/100 (with 1/10 M at the players option or 1/25 earned by vesting option) followed probably by 3/90 come 2017.
“His stat line is what drives him.”
Ya, remember that game Wright took himself out early to save his batting average? That’s not what a team player does.
Even ball players, current or former one’s can’t predict what guys are going to do on into the future. Even guys that get paid to be right. Steve Phillips was a ball player. He got some right and many wrong. Minaya was a ball player. He had hits and misses too. I feel very strongly that Bay was a product of hitting in a very good lineup and in a park well suited for him in Boston and I said so at the time we were chasing him.
Every lineup has guys your not going to let beat you. Sometimes it’s a different guy depending on what arm the pitcher uses. LHP won’t give Wright the chance cause he crushes them. Fastballs and LHP are what Wright feasts on and frequently against RHP the best pitch he sees is the first one and he always takes it.
I had the feeling at times last year that he wasn’t trying to swing for the fence as much and I hope that continues. That one thing would not only help him but others in the lineup as well. I do think 500 HR’s was on his mind and that he sacrificed his approach especially on the road in 2009 and 2010 but he hasn’t been in a good lineup the last three years and that will hurt any hitter.
Overall we’ve got much bigger fish to fry than David Wright and he’s probably here no more than two years and I think he’ll be appreciated more after he’s gone than he is right now, especially if we can’t fill 3B for 25 years.
People want him to be Miguel Cabrerra but he’s just not, no matter how much you want him to. Reyes isn’t Rickey Henderson either. Strawberry wasn’t Ted Williams, Alfonzo wasn’t Joe Morgan, Cone wasn’t Seaver, deal with it.
I have absolutely no problem what so ever with Reyes last game this year. We weren’t playing for anything and either were the Reds but he could lay one down to help win a batting title when he should have been laying one down here and there all along. Maybe he gets OB once in the 7th game 2006 NLCS. Maybe he doesn’t hit .205 the last month of 2007. If your solely focused on only what a guy DOESN’T do then you miss all that he does do. You can find a negative in anyone’s game if that’s all your looking for.
Not that we’ve been a traditional offensive powerhouse since our inception but Wright does hold or is close to many team records and you don’t do that by being awful.
Given that every player has both a value and a price on his head, how could anybody not want to see better value returned for Wright or Reyes? If we get better, we should be happy.
I’m not with you on what Reyes did. It’s certainly not in the old school tradition. and Reyes will never be as good an offensive force as Ted Williams. Williams was the class of the major leagues. Reyes isn’t, though he just had a very good year.
This is not to say that Reyes couldn’t do things better on the base paths and defensively that Ted Williams. But we’re only talking here about Williams vs. Reyes as batters.
tagee: I hope somebody (a few people) read this reply and see that you and I disagree on how Reyes handled it. Yet… you give a very fair and adult like response. I disagree, but I am going to choose to not call you an a-hole, d-bag, or any of those colorful terms that people choose to use when somebody disagrees.
I appreciate that Jessep for many reasons, most of all because I feel we’re all entitled to our own opinions and no one’s opinion is always right.
Having respect for others opinions and an intelligent examination of them is what separates adults from children as is playing on the see saw or sandbox.
Differing opinions is nothing to be frightend about. If your confident in your opinion, your confident that you can defend it…….intelligently.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME, this site was a very nice site to discuss baseball until all this sabercrap started to come in and a bunch of non knowledge baseball ppl started to come in, all we hear now is save money, salary cuts, numbers don’t lie, ground ball outs are clutch at bats, brad eamus and his OBP, i mean.. no wonder there’s a few good writers here… nobody wanna talk baseball anymore..
Alex you never talk baseball. All you talk about about is Wright, Alderson, “saberheads”, JesseP, payroll, Emaus, Hu, toilets, d bags and “defend” your opinions by calling people names.
You never have a fresh opinion or bring a different point of view to the table. It’s never anything other than you bashing Wright, Alderson, “saberheads,” JesseP, payroll, salary cuts, Eamaus, Hu, toilets, d bags or calling people names.
That is literally the only things that YOU ever write.
Once in a great while you’ll bring up something someone else wrote……but just to trash it.
you don’t like me because i along with bayonne have exposed the second guesser you are.. what do you bring to the table for one to ever have a conversation or a debate with you? seriously? what do you say other than write an essay of 5000 words that at points just get boring and ppl have to quit reading half way because they’re so long!! aggee, i used to like you and respected you, but once i saw how you were portraying yourself on the shoutbox i stopped even trying to debate with you, all you do is second guess what’s done and wishing the mets have all homegrown players AT EVERY POSITION please, spare me the drama
“you don’t like me because i along with bayonne have exposed the second guesser you are”
Do you think you’re Daphne pulling the mask off the ghost to show it was Old Man Jenkins all along? What exactly are you exposing?
The fanbase could use a longer memory because we keep falling into the same mistakes. Those who don’t learn history and all…
donal, falling into the same mistakes, so what are sandy’s plans?? please don’t second guess, i have my opinions about him and his crew, if i am wrong i’ll love the man, but if i am right, what will ppl like you who defend him and his tactics will say? i always admit if iam wrong, unlike many ppl here..
You’re frequently wrong yet won’t back down.
If Alderson doesn’t produce, then he will be gone. Some of us are just willing to give hi ma reasonable amount of time to fix the problems that are obviously plaguing the franchise.
None of you guys have exposed ****. Except your own inability to defend your opinions.
Instead of discussing what people write you guys occasionally discuss things that people didn’t write, but most often just complain that they write anything at all.
You don’t like their opinions but you don’t even try to explain why you don’t like them. Is it because their true and the thought process behind the move can’t really be defended? That’s the impression that you leave.
When I write about how Steve Phillips gave up a #2 pick for David Weathers, there by costing us the chance of drafting Brian McCann, Jon Lester or Curtis Granderson I’m talking about exactly that. The CHANCE of drafting someone who plays great for 6-10 years for us.
I’m not saying we WOULD have drafted either of them. I’m just saying our overall philosophy has been flawed. I mean would you traded six years of those players for two years of David Weathers? What kind of sense would that make?
We never have enough players and those scant few times that we have, their shelf life has been too short. Add in expected, due to age injuries and unexpected ones and no depth and what do you expect is going to happen?
A Met Fan who wants to win EVERY YEAR should be outraged at the mismanagement of our team and all in my opinion in order to juice up ticket sales every February and because we have for two and a half decades now drafted the cheapest players rather than the potentially best ones.
The players who play the best are the ones you sign or draft and develop yourself. They also can be traded or let go for other players. Our first and second round picks always turn into dead ends or salary dumps.
That’s why we have 12 losing seasons in the last 21 years.
When I write about how Steve Phillips gave up a #2 pick for David Weathers, there by costing us the chance of drafting Brian McCann, Jon Lester or Curtis Granderson I’m talking about exactly that. The CHANCE of drafting someone who plays great for 6-10 years for us.”
yeah, OR we could’ve drafted someone like Blair Johnson, Corey Shafer, Adam Donachie, Josh Murray, Zach Hammes, Michael Johnson, Justin Jones, Steve Stanley or Josh Womack.. you know what ALL THOSE guys i mention have in common? they were all drafted AHEAD OF McCANN and NONE OF THEM MADE IT TO THE MAJORS!!!!!!!!!! that is called second guessing… which you are the master at!!!! once again, THE CORE PROVES YOU WRONG AND EXPOSED HOW MUCH OF A SECOND GUESSER YOU ARE!
You’ve proved nothing.
We had the chance to get McCann, Lester or Granderson with the pick, without the pick we had no chance.
We could have lost 86 games without David Weathers so having him didn’t do anything for us. Even if our pick busted it doesn’t change a thing but 2nd round picks hit about 50% of the time, sometimes big, like Lester, Pedroia, McCann, Votto and on and on and on.
Bust one year, big hit the next, big league roster filler/AAA depth/trade bait from the next year, it’s still something and a hell of a lot more than 10 Weathers will ever give you.
Certain teams hit more often than others. That can’t be attributed simply to luck but the most important thing is to have your pick, not give it away for very little upside.
Remember the whole reason we had a need for a set up guy is the symptom. 14/17 busted first, 2nd and 3rd round picks during the Phillips era.
Signing David Weathers just addressed the symptom, not the illness and just perpetuated the illness down the road.
OmarFan: “lmao @ NON-BALL PLAYERS trying to figure out why Jose will still be an effective hitter into his 30′s and Wright won’t be”
Can you explain to me why http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=OmarFan doesn’t work? I can’t seem to figure it out when reading the statement above.
I tried Jessup…that didn’t work either!
Hello POT! Which is what you must be smoking to come up with your arguments and THEORIES!
Wow, Metsie missed the point. I think we have a winner for the least surprising item of the week.
yeah I want to be just like you but I can’t seem to miss as many points as you since you are EXPERT AT IT!
NOTE TO JoeD, Xtreem, and everyone else who is upset with the current tone in the comment section!
It is posts like the one Donal made which is why the conversation is always so UNCIVILIZED around here!
Nothing to add just snide remarks totally NOT about baseball!
I would love it if we just put a filter on all the comments eer made on this site and removed all posts that made no baseball point or had no data included to MAKE a point.
Donals would have about three posts left since he started posting here if we did that!
“yeah I want to be just like you but I can’t seem to miss as many points as you since you are EXPERT AT IT!”
So lame. So very lame.
“NOTE TO JoeD, Xtreem, and everyone else who is upset with the current tone in the comment section!
It is posts like the one Donal made which is why the conversation is always so UNCIVILIZED around here!”
Right, its not the constant attacks, insults, cursing, threats, derailing etc etc. It’s when you get called out for missing the point.
“Nothing to add just snide remarks totally NOT about baseball!”
That would save Joe so much memory.
“Donals would have about three posts left since he started posting here if we did that!”
The next step would be that attempts to put up data included sound reasoning and not just tossing up a wall of numbers to hide the fact that the poster hasn’t a clue what he was talking about would all be erased.
Hey…where’d Metsie go?
Yep thanks for proving my point yet again!
You add absoloutly NOTHING to this site Donal!
NOTHING!
Just a keyboard bully who if had to says what he said in person would hide under Mommy’s dress!
HOW OLD ARE YOU?
I would like to have Reyes but its going to end up being all about the money. If he signs with the Mets it will be because he wants to play for the Mets. If he wants a Crawford style contract then he won’t be with the Mets. No way the Mets give him 7 years and I can totally understand that. Fans will flip out and cry and moan about it but I will understand that the Mets shouldn’t give a player 7 years, especially right now. It will be sad to see him leave (if he does) but freaking out and throwing ridiculous money at him isn’t the smart way to go for the Mets. The Mets have had too many bad contracts in the last few years to throw money at another player just because they are scared.
Luckily the amount of time he’ll spend in that new uniform will be in drastic decline because most times players on the DL don’t wear uniforms!
I’m kidding, nice post but really, I’m ready to see how it plays out
we all know those are your true feelings towards reyes.. you’re not kidding, is how you feel, is funny how all this time you said reyes is your fav player yet all you seem to talk about is his injuries.. how about the mets all time base stealer, or triples leader.. or the first met to ever WIN A BATTING TITLE!?!? you spend time kissing as-s to kimbrel and the braves prospects but not one second on a player from the team you supposely like.. and your “favorite” player nonetheless.. that is why i think you’re a poser and a front runner.
He quit on the fans and his team to win the batting title. If he plays the whole game I would glady praise the title. He unlike Braun didn’t have a playoff race/series to get rest for.
He chose batting title and future contract over playing what could have been his final game as a Met in front of the fans.
If the roles were reversed and Derek Jeter was a pending free agent and there were doubts about him returning, there isn’t a chance in the world he’d take himself out of his final *home* game just to win a batting title. And if he did that, I’d bet my life that people here would be ALL OVER him for it.
I love the way he plays, but I thought that was bush league and a sign that you hold him with great nostalgia, but he doesn’t feel the same way.
He can prove me wrong by signing here and I’ll be glad to admit it if he doesn’t hold the mets hostage.
HE QUIT ON THE TEAM??? your level of douchness goes beyond reach, how about he OVER TOOK braun for the batting lead in the last week huh?? braun was at 333 and reyes at .329 and reyes went 7-11 the last 11 at bats to raised his avg to 337…
and now you praised jeter??? the same jeter who in 2008 after going 0-2 in game 162 he took himself out so his BA wouldn’t dip below the 300?? THAT SAME JETER?!?!!? you see why you’re such a front runner?? you go and praised someone else and try to sh** on the players from the team you root for.. little by little i will expose you for the fake front runner fan you are…
Alex do you remember 2 days ago when Joe asked why you have to resort to insults whenever somebody disagrees with you and you tried to pawn it off as you are insulted first?
“i try not to insult anyone, but when i do is because i reach my boiling point”
I’d like to call this “exhibit A”
what did i say that wasn’t true??? that you’re a fake mets fan? front runner? douch-e? which one is untrue??? you and you’re sabercrap damage this site, good writers have left because in here we don’t talk baseball anymore, and when someone like you do is often about how great KIMBREL WAS. every chance you get you take a shot at reyes and now you got the BALL-S to say he quit on the team because he took himself out after getting a hit in his first at bat yet praised jeter and he did the same back in 2008? you probably were rooting for braun to go 4-4 to overtake him, pathetic, but just LIKE CRAIG KIMBREL IN HIS LAST SAVE OPP ryan BRAUN choked and went 0-4 and whether YOU like it or not we have our FIRST BATTING CHAMPION.. i will expose you for who you truly are.. a fake fan and a front runner..
” i try not to insult anyone, but when i do is because i reach my boiling point, when i am wrong i’d be the first one apologizing for it THAT SAME JETER?!?!!?”
Actually it must have been a different Jeter because Jeter didn’t play in Game 161 or 162 in 2008, and in the Yankees final home game of the 2008 season Jeter had 5 at bats.
In 4 of the last 5 games of the 2008 season, Jeter played in one of them… the 3rd one because he had an ailing injury and going into that game he had a .302 average. So he didn’t have to play to “preserve his .300 average”
If you’re going to kick and scream, get your facts straight first.
ohhhh, i am sorry, OF COURSE HE WASN’T GONNA PLAY, after reaching .300 he not only took himself out afte 2 at bats on game 160, he REFUSED TO PLAY IN GAMES 161 AND 162 for fear he’d lose his 300 batting average, isn’t that WORST!!!!!!?!?? you would’ve liked wright instead of reyes to be the first ever met to win the batting title, but guess what, NOPE, suck on it, i know it hurts you front runner loser, keep kissing tulo’s as-s, that’ll take you places.. i wonder when others will see you for who you truly are, the fakest of them all…
I think I’ve said it before, I don’t care about a batting title. A batting title means nothing to me no matter who gets it. It’s nice for Reyes, good job. Hanley Ramirez won a batting title 2 years ago, if I didn’t look that up I would have never remembered.
Jeter had an above .300 batting average. He played the final home game of the season in front of his fans. He missed 4 out of the last 5 games, and in the 3rd one took 2 at bats in Fenway. He was ABOVE .300 when he took the field. If your argument was totally accurate then why would he play game 160 when he didn’t play in 158 or 159?
It’s not the same thing. I understand you don’t grasp things like this but…
bunting in the 1st inning and taking yourself out of a game in what could be your last home game as a met to preserve a batting title is NOT the same thing as missing 4 out of 5 games, and having 5 at bats in your final home game of the year.
news to you, jose reyes doesn’t care what you think, again, why aren’t you happy a met won the batting title?!?! explain to me why aren’t you happy?? yet, kimbrel in his first season as a closer to quote you became “THE BEST CLOSER IN BASEBALL”.. based on what!????
all you are is a front runner and fake as hell, now you’re defending jeter?? what, you run out of tulo’s numbers that now you’re resorting to jeter? because, everyone but reyes is the best SS in the game, and yet reyes in you’re fake profile is your fav player. i imagine if it wasn’t… for us domini-cans and for our country it was a very special moment..
“jose reyes doesn’t care what you think”
which is precisely why I don’t treat him as if he can do no wrong. Reyes doesn’t care what you or I think. First true thing you’ve said all day.
And he proved it after he took himself out. He might as well have taken off his jersey ala LeBron just to seal the deal.
i wanna see your reaction if he signs with the mets and he takes less money.. i know he doesn’t care what anybody thinks, as a fan we should be happy that after 50 years this franchise FINALLY HAS A BATTING CHAMPION!!!
what if he signs that 7/120 WITH THE METS then what?!?! you know, you’re pathetic man, is ok for kimbrel to be the league leader in saves but is not ok for reyes to win the batting title because the mets finish under 500? well, guess what, where is your article about alderson waving the white flag midjuly huh? just so you know, the braves didn’t go to the playoffs either ok… i know it hurt your feelings when they choked, but fact is, THEY DID CHOKE!
If he signs with the Mets a 5 year/90mil ish deal. I’ll be the first to either write a blog or comment on the blog that I am very happy he chose to stay here.
If he signs a 7yr/120m deal elsewhere, he will confirm my thoughts.
I’d love for him to prove me wrong.
“as a fan we should be happy that after 50 years this franchise FINALLY HAS A BATTING CHAMPION!!!”
Sorry I don’t see it that way. I don’t really care if the Mets have a batting champion in their 3rd straight losing season. Sorry if that makes you angry, but his batting title doesn’t make me feel better about being a Mets fan right now.
ohhh, and btw, why for jeter you make up an excuse??? everyone except your favorite player deserves the benefit of the doubt right?? right after he got to 300 he took himself out,how convinient…
he was above .300 Alex. Above .300!!!! He didn’t get a base hit and take himself out “well i’m at .300, days done” he was .302 when he took the field in Game 160.
He didn’t have to play to be above .300
JOSE REYES DID THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!
HE WAS ABOVE BRAUN!!!!!!!!! ABOVE BRAUN!!!! he didn’t need to play either, but he did, got a hit and took himself out, you act as if you were at the game, you didn’t even go see him play this year yet you are here trying to sh** onb his parade, whether you like it or not, JOSE REYES, FIRST MET TO EVER WIN A BATTIG TITLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uhhh no he didn’t. He got a hit to preserve the title. He’s a free agent to be and it was possibly his final home game of his mets career
The fact you don’t understand the difference between that and a 34 year old non free agent who played in his final home game and was not playing in 4 of the last 5 games would be surprising to me if you were not you.
If the Mets were in the playoffs and reyes did that, I’d have 0 problems with it by the way. 0.
The fact he took himself out in what could be his final game as a met in front of his fans in the 1st inning just so he can win a batting title in a game that didn’t matter in the standings was a selfish move.
Trying to defend that is just blind loyalty. If David Wright did it, I’d call it bush. In that exact situation, it was a bush league selfish move.
jessePtwo things,
#1:you don’t know whether he’d be a met again or not,
#2 he won a batting title while wearing a METS uniform. becoming the first one ever, where we you when he overtook braun by going 7-11 to take the batting avg lead?? how come is ok to write an article about URINALS and not about your “FAVORITE” player winning a batting title for a franchise that in 50 HAD NEVER HAD ONE!!!??
sorry the quote from above pasted wrong
“the same jeter who in 2008 after going 0-2 in game 162 he took himself out so his BA wouldn’t dip below the 300?? THAT SAME JETER?!?!!? ” Was the lovely quote I was responding to above
Jose Reyes quit on the team? This site is going down the toilet.
Why is that, because some people have differing opinions and get to voice them? Perhaps because not everyone things Reyes is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
He didn’t quit on the team anymore than YOU did when you said they were done in July!
And do me a favor…If you want to ignore me do it before I hand you your butt with facts and you call me crazy as you usually do!
Save me a bit of posting time and you some embarassment!
If he’s not resigned I hope he goes to LAA or Seattle. Then I won’t have to see that much of him in someone else’s uniform.
Man, the amount of other teams players we have paid a fortune to to stink up Flushing through the years and not have the cash to resign one of our own is just beyond belief.
What has the great Jose Reyes won for the Mets, exactly?
TODD
A BATTING TITLE.
So do the Mets get to keep the batting title when/if Reyes leaves?
2003 Bill Mueller won a batting title, Freddy Sanchez won one in 2006. They are nice personal achievements but spare me that this is some accomplishment that negates never winning the Mets a championship or even a pennant or even I dunno, 2 playoff berths?
You two are a couple of clowns.
ohhh, so now you wanna put reyes in that category, but when we say that about wright and his constant failures in big spots you say is a team game and it wans’t his fault and is a team sport?????
in which category? In the category of other batting champions like Mueller and Sanchez? I’d wonder why you don’t think he belongs in that category?
in the category of “reyes never won us a championship” category, if we blame wright you say is a team game, yet now you’re using the same “reyes has never won us anything” crap.. be consistant you know..
Wright isn’t up for a contract
And people aren’t talking about him like he deserves a top 15 MLB history contract like Crawford got.
If when Wright is a free agent and the Mets are still no good, I’ll join you in saying he doesn’t deserve AGone money (154/6)
If you toss ARod’s contract out because of the absurdity of it thanks to Tom Hicks (set the standards when yankees had to renegotiate)… you realize the highest 3B contract other than ARod’s ever in the sport was Chipper Jones 90m/6y.
That’s a very fair contract in my view. But we’ll see when Wright becomes a FA… i’m not gonna kill him for his demands or what he is rumored to want until I hear it.
Not yet but I’m sure you have your mid season WE ARE OUT OF IT 7.5 Games out NO HOPE Lets trade Wright for some 2015 maybes post all prepared and ready to go!
He’s going to be 30 Blah and his OBP is .3 Blah blah and WAR is Blah Blah Blah because he didn’t have more RBOE which in war are more valuable to have than sctual hits blah blah blah!
Oh and the tagline on it will be if you don’t believe me YOUR CRAZY!
Until someone posts facts and you run away!
Whats RBOE?
Reached base on error.
Tango gives a slightly, so very slightly, greater value to reaching on an error than reaching on a straight up single. Mainly due to the fact that errors have a tendency to get you more than 1 base.
It gets more insane every day.
Meanwhile watching the 1st 2 games of the World Series has been pure baseball excellence with games decided on pitching, important managerial and player decisions both offensively and defensively. A poorly executed cutoff could even help decide game 2.
And people are talking about a RBOE. Unbelievable.
It’s Reached Base on Error.
P.S.: Someone giving you a thumbs down on your question is like giving a person asking the time of day a thumbs down. Apparently we have some hypersensitive readers.
He’s one guy on a 25 man roster. Just like Wright and Beltran, it’s not his fault the team didn’t take advantage of his production.
Again, jesseP wants to say reyes quit on his team on last game of the season after getting a bunt hit, yet not one article or comment from him about alderson QUITTING on the frachise as well by trading away beltran and krod for salary dump and wheeler, we were only 6.5 games out and after the krod trade alderson could’ve made a little move here and there to at least improved the bullpen but didn’t. where’s the article about him giving up in july?!
I can’t help you if you don’t see that 1 move was made with the thinking that this will help the franchise of the NY Mets and the other move was made with the thinking that it will help an individual make more money.
again, i am not talking about those moves, but you’re telling me 3 gm’s in the front office, and they couldn’t come up with a trade plan or an idea to acquire someone who could’ve helped the mets in the bullpen.. 3 GM’S and all we do is trade beltran for wheeler (2015 at best) and krod for a lefty who NEVER would’ve been in the mets roster had us being competitive??
The Your crazy alex I can’t help you defense!
That is because he didn’t quit on the team, he is making it better by adding not subtracting, more of that new math huh?
a whole lot of comments which is great, however most of them are of alex68 fighting with everyone….hmmm
Dan, good comment by you.
Increasingly as time goes on, Alex and the Core members are one and the same in their views. It’s not adult time yet.
Alex is the core. No one else uses it.
Alex68 attributes the name and the views to Bayonne and OmarFan.
Remember, you’re known by the company you keep.
des, you might wanna check who are you allies… donal, jessep and agee are the 3 biggest douch-es in this site…
YAAAAAAY……I’m off the hook!!!
HA! And right on cue……..a thumbs down.
LOL, xtree-micon, i meant it for jesse… didn’t realize it was your name, but it was me who did it, while i don’t agree with some of your post you don’t come out as arrogant as those foremention…
Don’t sugarcoat it……you don’t agree with any of my posts.
yes i have.. like 2 or 3
I’ll take it.
yeah des, you can tell donal, agee and I are because of all of our comments hidden due to poor rating…. oh…. wait
is that your comeback?? thumbs up and down ratings??
Alex, let’s see if you can get your head around the issue. You have proudly self-identified with your pals in the Core. Going into almost any topic, you have chosen, for better or worse, to have the same view as other Core members. On the other hand, when Donal, Jessep, tag and I have a common view, it’s not because we’re a band of brothers, but it results from a similar perspective AFTER considering the issue.
In summary, your Core’s views are the same ‘going in’, but the rest of us have the same position as a result of individual analyses.
Des there is a DISTINCT difference between you, Tag and sometimes Xtreem compared to jessup and his two Pitbulls Donal and Who!
You will willingly debate, post and counter post data on a given subject.
Tag does, Xtreem tries at least.
Jessup makes his PROCLAMATION and if you disagree YOUR CRAZY! STUPID, INSANE or just wrong with no proof of any kind to back that up!
And when you DO show proof that what he said was complete and total bull, he then has His pitbull cheerleaders Donal and Who attack the hell out of you so he can make a hasty retreat and avoid the data presented that he can’t cope with!
You may agree with some of thier positions but I have not seen you writing articles to put forth this warped and failed Philosophy Jessup seems so intent on selling to the masses!
He complains about Reyes giving up on the last game of the season which counted for nothing and WHY?
Is it because he really cares that he played the whole game or was he counting on him to have a REALLY BAD game so he could say SEE REYES is not worth keeping!
Do it my way Lets play MONEYBALL!
Yet he gave up on the season in July! WELCOMED IT! and even did his best to sell everyone on how GREAT a move it was!
We have a lot of good posters here and Jessup used to be reasonable until he got on his LETS PURGE THE PAYROLL Crusade!
LETS GIVE UP halfway through the season because if we have ANY success I wont’t get my philosophy implemented!
Here is my feeling…
If all you care about is seeing Minor leaguers then go buy tickets to Buffalo and stop commenting and trying to GUT the team we will be watching for the next 3 years and come back and let us all know when the Bisons are ready to win the MLB WS!
I’m very sick of the chicken Little apporach so lets do my favorite philosophy because I read it in a book!
Sick of the trashing of David Wright, Ike Davis, Jose Reyes, Reuben Tejada, Lucas Duda, Harvey Familia and Mejia simply because if we are to RECOGNIZE how good they are we might not do what Jessup wants because what he wants only works for a team that is ALREADY the worst team in baseball and can’t make a move that makes them worse even if you TRIED!
So I don’t put you in their group!
Please don’t put yourself there and support thier fantasy that things are so BAD that we need to tear down to dirt!
Cause no amount of drafting OR BUYING will dig us out of that hole they intend to create in the name of NOT SPENDING!
Thanks for the kind words Metsie. A lot of the fun of being a Mets baseball fan is seeing the endless possibilities of different roster combinations and taking advantage of the waxing and waning skills of different players so that our team wins both this season and is still good in the upcoming years. Being a good GM over time isn’t easy, since there are 30 or so GM’s trying to beat our brains out while satisfying their fan bases and still making money.
In last night’s Texas win, I saw a young shortstop with skills that were awesome. He is quick, fast, heady, can hit, and runs the bases very well. Off the top of my head, I’d trade ANY of our middle infielders for him, provided that if we sent out Reyes to Texas that we also got a top quality SP. That’s how impressed I am with Elvis Andrus and the ten years he’ll likely star at SS.
Only point I disagree with is this:
“Being a good GM over time isn’t easy,”
Actually the more time the easier it is!
Because if you get the time no matter how bad you are you will at some point get enough good draft picks to look good because the top 10 guys picked in a draft is hardly a mystery to all GMs and unless you are TOTALLY incompetent and take a 5th rounder in the first more often than not you will get a good player!
What seperates the wheat from the chaff is your ability to compete WHILE you build!
Because competing even marginally hurts your draft position!
Most GMs fail not for how they built the Minors they fail based on their inability to compete while doing so!
And trading away your good players for more MiLs will not keep you employed unless that kid comes up before your contract runs out and he is everything or more than what you gave away to get him!
And yes the kid you mentioned is quite the SS.
Do we have a shot at him?
You can be the greatest GM in baseball history but your ability to build is dependent on what is availble to build with!
The kid maybe as good as Reyes, But we can’t get him and we CAN get Reyes.
When he is available then maybe the choices are different!
Until that happens you have to go with what you can get!
The Core actually refers to a bunch of regulars here who used to be on Metsblog but were banned and came here.
Alex refers to it to give his posts some kind of authority. There’s a few problems with this.
1) He’s the only one that uses it and there’s never been any proof that he’s some how able to speak for the others
2) Of those that could be considered The Core, several frequently end up on opposite sides of discussions from alex
3) Most importantly: No one cares other than for amusement purposes
Cheers, Donal. So I can consider your differences with Alex just an amusement. lol
3) Most importantly: No one cares other than for amusement purposes”
and yet you keep chirping about it… it seems it only bothers you when i say it or use it… we’ve told you what it is, but you being as hardheaded as you are refuse to pay attentions
Alex – here is something I would like you to do whever you read Donal’s posts…It works for me…
Make believe your TIM from the Monty Python and the holy grail Telling the Knights about how nasty the rabbit is!, post your data and then wait.
Read what Donal says (Usually your crazy) and then imagine him walking towards the mad killer Rabbit because he thinks he knows better!
Satifaction every time!
lol
dan,
is not my fault jesseP likes other team’s players and try to sh** on reyes parade.. too bad it was on article #349 about reyes in this blog that i tried to set him straight.. don’t think too highly of yourself ok
all he does is sh** on beltran, krod and reyes.. someway somehow he finds something negative to say about them, yet writes a WHOLE ARTICLE ABOUT BRAD EAMUS ABILITY TO GET ON BASE….
Alex does the same with Wright, Alderson, anyone he perceives to be a “saberhead” or anyone else that has an opinion that is different than his.
yeah, because i didn’t start a campaign about OLIVER PEREZ, LUIS CASTILLO AND OMAR MINAYA FOR SIGNING THOSE 2 BUMS!!!!! try to second guess again..
I didn’t start a campaign either. My point is always that Harazin, Phillips AND Minaya were too tilted every year toward THIS YEAR and didn’t do enough work toward FUTURE YEARS and consequently had way too many “holes to fill” every year.
My point has always been that the play that we’ve gotten from expensive free agents has on average been no better than what we could have gotten from a rule 5, non tender or a type B free agent and that if we ever had a farm we could talk trade for any player, in the Majors or minors rather than limiting ourselves to the only the most expensive choice which frequently plays like **** and takes away our best chances of not having so many “holes to fill” down the road.
The fact that I use so many different examples to back up my opinions is simply because there are so many examples to draw from.
Even if monkeyball were ever to be successful it would immediately precceed a five year rebuilding effort because of the talent sucked out from the future in order to get that success.
I’d rather have eight shots at a World Championship every decade rather than one and a half and 66% losing seasons the rest of the time.
yeah, because prospects are all guarantee to succees, i proved to you that for every zimmerman there’s 350 pitchers that DON’T EVEN make it to the majors. is not guarantee success if we go the homegrown route, look at the royals and pirates, look how long it took tampa to become good after having tons of #1 or top 10 picks EVERY YEAR for like 10 year straight..
Prospects are NOT guaranteed but they don’t clog up your payroll and roster with useless players. Think we’d be protecting Bay on the 40 man roster this year at the expense of a kid who may be here for 6-10 years? I got news for you, We’re going to LOSE a prospect because of having to keep Bay on the roster. Jason Bay is going to COST us 1/3rd of what a reasonably fair 5 year deal to Reyes would cost. Would you trade 2 years of Reyes for two years of Bay and LOSE a Lagares, Puello, Marte, Flores, McHugh, Cruz or De La Torre as well?
Alou cost us a #1 pick for 100 games over two years and cost us a roster spot which in turn cost us a 21 year old catcher who hit 21 HR’s in A+ and now we’re debating about Thole, Paulino and Nickeas. Doesn’t matter that he got hurt and had setbacks in his rehab. It was the thinking at the time. If we don’t sign Alou we have a catcher now and maybe a RFer too and never even make Bay an offer.
Jeez. What do you think is the reason we have to sign 13 guys for the 40 man roster every year?
The only thing guaranteed with the expensive free agent is the money. The rest of it is up in the air as many guys we have signed through the years can attest.
How many times can Alex68 use the phrase “second guessing” wrong in one thread?
He tries to set a new record every day.
He uses it because there is a lot of it and particularly by one individual who has based his reputation here on 2nd guessing. Even going back as far as second guessing the entire history of the organization and he reminds us every day. In fact, it’s the guy that responded to you.
His ability to look back years after the fact and NOW come to conclusions is legendary.
Right, but you don’t second guess yourself, with who Alderson SHOULD have gotten in the off season last year when he was here 5 mins and had NO money to spend….. Nope that’s not second guessing either, because YOU said it……….
“I know what I saw and Murphy’s still on 3rd………”
Edgar, since you are new here i will tell you that since the playoffs and majority of 2008 i always thought the man was unclutch as hell, so i’ve been saying it ever since, i don’t second guess, i say what i say, if i’m wrong i’ll admit it and be the first one to tell you, you don’t know the ppl in this site, i suggest you read about them first to see which side you’re gonna be on. the second guessers and the dictator jesee, or everyone else.
Iam not new here, you are wrong and I don’t for your “selective” of what you’ve seen since 08.
Did you just call someone a dictator? WOW that is a new alltime low. Ask the families of Pan AM 103 if they know what a dictator is capable of. WOW so insensative – trash really.
I have been here since 2005. I mostly read the articles but, I don’t really comment. There has been a huge increase over the past year of name calling. It’s just gotten disgusting. I can honestly say that it has all started from one person.
now I’m a dictator huh? thanks for the promotion from d-bag to dictator.
But in all seriusness let’s chat. Not argue, chat. I wanna get inside the head of alex68.
You talk a ton about clutch and it being the reason why you dislike Wright. Yet you have pom poms for Reyes. I mean, you do. That’s okay. He’s a great player. I don’t really like or dislike players because they are “clutch” or not, so I’m trying to understand this statement.
“i will tell you that since the playoffs and majority of 2008 i always thought the man was unclutch”
So when I read that, I think to myself okay, fair reason to dislike Wright if that is how you feel. But then, why do you always compare Reyes to him?
Why does every Met conversation have to be Reyes v. Wright (this is why one of them has to go by the way) and what I really don’t get is if you dislike Wright for being unclutch, then wouldn’t that be a reason to dislike Reyes?
Just to cover your quote again you said “i will tell you that since the playoffs and majority of 2008 i always thought the man was unclutch”
But here is what I see based on the criteria for why you dislike Wright but love Reyes as stated above.
Jose Reyes
September 2007: 24 for 117 (.205) .279 on base
September 2008: 26 for 107 (.243) .314 on base
2006 Playoff Hits:
LDS Game 2: Reyes 6th inning single to CF drives in 1 to take a 4-0 lead.
LDS Game 3: Reyes 6th inning single to CF drives in 1 to tie game 5-5
LCS Game 2: Reyes 1st inning double to start game. 2nd inning single to RF to score 1 take 4-2 lead. 8th inning singles to CF in a 6-6 game.
LCS Game 3: Reyes 3rd inning triple
LCS Game 4: Reyes 6th inning single.
LCS Game 5: Reyes 1st inning infield single.
LCS Game 6: Reyes 1st inning HR (which you may call unclutch because it’s 1st inning. I consider clutch but we’re playing by your rules) Botton 5th single, Bottom 7th single in 2-0 game, steals 2nd would score to make it 4-0.
David Wright:
September 2007: 38 for 108 (.352) .432 on base
September 2008: 33 for 97 (.340) .416 on base
LDS Game 1: Wright 6th inning double to RF drives in LoDuca and Delgado to take a 4-1 lead which would knock Lowe out of the game. 7th inning double to RF Beltran scores to take a 6-4 lead.
LDS Game 2: Wright 6th inning single
LDS Game 3: Wright 1st inning single to LF scores 1 to take 1-0 lead
LCS Game 4: Wright 3rd inning solo HR to take 2-1 lead
LCS Game 5: Wright 8th inning double with runner on losing 4-2.
LCS Game 6: Wright 4th inning single to CF with runner on first leading 1-0
LCS Game 7: Wright 1st inning single to RF scores 1 run to take 1-0 lead.
So I’m having a hard time grasping what YOU see there that makes you dislike Wright but at the same time have no ill will towards Reyes for being “unclutch”
Can you explain that please? I’m not saying Wright is or isn’t clutch. I have said many times people said ARod wasn’t clutch and yet the Yanks don’t win in 09 without him but yet he’s still labeled “unclutch.” why? Because it’s how you view the moment.
So please with the info provided explain why you don’t dislike Reyes as much as Wright based on “clutch factor”
thanks, have a great day
jesseP, was i upset with reyes struggling in sept 2007? yes!!! but i wasn’t in this blog, metsblog. when the playoffs of 2006 ended, i blame noone but wille, wagener, mota and heilman for losing against the cardinals, i gave WRIGHT and his putry performance a pass.. but in the blogesphere, beltran was getting HAMMERED constantly for not coming trough, yet, noone mention wright, i found odd but understood the situation. 2007 the mets are riding high, sept comes along, and reyes along with the bullpen just explode, then we go completely cold, except for wright and alou, and, had the mets made the playoffs that year, i had mention that david wright was gonna be the MVP of the season. but, it didn’t go unnotice to me, how in a series against the nationals where they swept us wright even though he hit well 4-15 in the series he had a HUGE output on a game we lost 10-9 where he hit for 2 GIDP in situations with the game on the line i mentioned it and everyone thought i hated the man; 2008 comes in, the man is struggling mightly, noone is saying anything about his unclutchness but me and i was being pegged as a hater, all year he’s coming up small in the biggest spots, and of course, we all saw the infamous game against the cubs. fast forward today, EVERYONE is ok with trading the man for pitching prospects. i’ve been on the record saying he’s UNCLUTCH, reyes is a guy who is at the top of the lineup, wright is in the middle of the lineup, ppl call arod unclutch because he’s a middle of the lineup guy, you NEVER hear ppl talking about the leadoff hitter of a team being unclutch? do you? who is supposed to be the man in the lineup, emilio bonifacio or hansley ramirez?? common sense man, you wanna compare wright with reyes, no, is wright with someone who’s in the middle of the lineup.
Alex, in saber all hitters are judged equally.
Where a hitter bats in the order and what type of game that hitter has, has absolutely no bearing.
As traditional baseball fans we understand that middle of the order hitters feed off what top of the orders hitters do.
One’s job is to get on base at a good and consistent level, while the middle of the order hitters who traditionally get paid more drive them home. If they consistently fail to do that in big spots they are unclutch.
Back in the day, table-setters had their role, and middle of the order hitters had theirs. Now it’s all muddled. Middle of the order hitters are expected to have OBP like the best table-setters, and leadoff men to have an OPS like the best sluggers in the game.
That’s what I dont get or agree with.
Team building and lineup construction is lost and we have one-size fits all standards that are applied no matter where you bat in the lineup.
I also want to add that this is why I completely disagree with this WAR or replacement player theory which sets the bar for all hitters regardless of the type of hitter they are.
I love all the new stats to get information about players, but I don’t believe we should say .350 is the minimum acceptable OBP and if you are less than that you are an awful player. I dont buy that at all.
Actually, position plays a role in determining a player’s WAR.
And if you are a power hitter who has a slightly bellow average OBP, you can still have a high WAR, especially if you play a position not traditionally for power hitters.
different strokes for different folks (or in this case, different stats).
I think you also just pointed out a key thing about sabers (which goes back to metsie’s posts about everyone knows so they don’t mean anything).
Like any stat, they are just #s that require interpretation. And every GM is going to apply them differently. Making some will just take a WAR list and pick the top, but I highly doubt it.
and Donal is right, stuff like WAR accounts for position, so a C and 1B with identical #s are going to have vastly different WAR calculated, since they are being compared against other people at the same position.
Actually Any the truth of the matter is the stats are NOT the first indicator of who they want they never are!
It is the SCOUTING they do that determines who they will look at and Stats are only used well after they find similar players and want to drill down to compare the similars!
They may use some metrics for certain things to compile a list of players but not in regards to players they know full well.
And they do that only in cases where there is no clear winner available for what they want to get!
If they want a HR hitter they don’t look at SLG they still look at the HRs, Traditionals are not REPLACED merely augmented and the truth is BOTH are advanced metrics when it comes right down to it!
teams have been doing things like that LONG BEFORE Bill James wrote his first book the on;ly difference in what Bill James said compared to what was done was the importance on OB and OUTS because he decided Outs were the limiting factor without ever taking into consideration extra innings where the outs are not just 27!
It’s reasonable to place importance on it but it is no more important to finding a player that does a certain thing than any other traditional!
Sabers still tell you no better who will be that good HR hitter!
You use traditionals!
Sabers are good for judging AVERAGE players but the traditionals still tell you who are the GREAT players!
I don’t need OBP to tell me Pujols is a good batter, If his OBP was lower it would not stop me from getting him because of those HRs he has!
The problem I have with most Saber Rattlers is they wish to DISCARD DATA instead of incorporate more!
they refuse to use BA in favor of OBP. OBP includes non accomplished acts of a batter! BA pretty much says what he accomplished in the same way and it calls things like Walks, and Sacrifices as a wash!
Walks because the Pitcher is required to do something before you can get and because a Sacrifice costs an out while moving a runner up one base!
It’s like an ofset OB! You got an extra base just not an OB for the Batter!
I have tried to argue the point here to PROFOUND RESISTANCE from those whop claim to support DEEP STATISTICAL ANALYSIS that the Sabers are just as FLAWED as the traditionals and they should look for even NEWER metrics that remove the problems with EARNED ACTS that Sabers has in it and to come up with metrics that show ALl PLUSSES a batter makes and reflect it into a metric!
Somewhere in here I suggested an eOBP which would count a sac as a base moving act that the batter made and should be credited with as if it is as good as an OB.
Maybe not a whole OB but some plus should be added for getting one more base for those who got on and could not get without the batter’s help!
But the Saber crowd is biased against outs and refuse to open their mind to the fact that not all OB are good and not all outs are bad!
As closed minded as the Saber rattlers say the Traditionalist are they are pretty much the pot calling the kettle when it comes to CLOSED MINDS!
As I like to say about WAR joe….
Phantom Wins + Phantom Players = PHANTOM RESULTS!
joe, fair enough, but again, in the lineup of any team, the guys in the middle are the guys who are paid to produce, is even common sense when paying a guy, a leadoff hitter avg 7 million per year, where as someone in the middle doubles that. furcal is not paid to drive in runs, he gets paid to get on base, be dynamic, play good defense and his speed. yes, leadoff guys more often than not lead of a game only once in a game and in clutch situations yes they have to come trough, but if you’re gonna penalize reyes for not being clutch during those septembers, then we should penalize wright for not stealing base.
and for the sabers and WAR, here’s a little something for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01-2pNCZiNk&feature=related
I actually am not too sold on WAR either, yet I know I get clumped into a sabermetric crowd for some reason.
Here’s the thing. I AGREE that a guy like Reyes and a guy like Wright have different roles. (how non saber of me?) If Reyes gets on base at the rate he did this year every year, then the Mets are a totally different team in 07 and 08. I mean vastly different.
HOWEVER, the word “clutch” to me is not defined by a role. I can tell you David Eckstein is clutch, or you can say Albert Pujols is clutch. Where they hit doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of “clutch,” it just means you have more chances.
See people say I have a problem with Reyes. I do. I have a problem with a guy suddenly becoming the hitter we ALL know he can be just in time for a new contract. I don’t believe hitters vastly improve at the age of 28.
I think in rare cases a guy like say Nelson Cruz breaks out at age 28, but in most cases, a hitter is who he is gonna be from ages 24-27 in the big leagues.
I think Jose Reyes as a hitter over the course of time will prove to be more like his 2009 body of work than 2011. And that’s not a BAD thing, it’s just terribly convenient that he happened to break out with millions of dollars at stake.
However, If you believe in clutch, then you either are or are not… correct?
My question is, if Reyes didn’t do his job better than Wright did his job but Wright is unclutch and despised by Alex for it, then why does Reyes get a pass?
I don’t think you can compare Reyes to Cruz (who was a minor league about to be washout at 26 or so that made a very rare leap to actual good MOL player). Reyes had a pretty consistant body of work beginning in 2005.
I also don’t think that Reyes changed as much as you are implying (vastly improving). Overall, the only real difference from when he was last healthy (2008) was that his BA jumped ~.35-.40 points. Certainly a good thing, but the rest of his numbers were reasonably consistent (HRs down but triples up maybe due to the park).
And there have been a number of studies to validate “common knowledge” that 27-28 is when many hitters have their career year, often with a totally unexpected jump in #s like BA.
will Reyes have this high a BA again? we have to wait to find out. Maybe it was just a career year and he will settle back into the .290 range again where he was for the first 3,000 or so ABs of his career!
Wow that actually sounded like the Jessup of old! Must be bad coffee or something…
The problem with anyone judging players on how clutch they are is that no one seems to define clutch the same way from person to person.
most are basing the notion on games they saw not actual situations.
Some think the out at the time is relevant, Some think the score at the time is important
Others think a PA with MOB is relevent (I agree with this definition)
Wright had a down year because he missed two months and played nearly a month with a bad back. Despite that he got a .509 RBI per game.
The leading RBI producer (Kemp) had a .782 RBI per game.
Wright in his best Clutch year (2008) had a .775.
You guys mentioned WHERE they are in the linup but for some reason do not take into account who was AROUND them in that lineup which has a great impact on the pitches the batter will see!
In 2008 Wright had Beltran and Delgado there!
This year he had at bet Bay and Pagan/Murphy with Ike in there the beginning and during the time his back was bad.
If you wish to debate clutch then at least come to a decision on what actually IS clutch and take into account what is around the player!
We take Defense into account when we judge Pitchers why do we ignore the batter around them in the lineup?
I don’t really agree with the guys who hate Wright but if the question is I can keep only one between Reyes and Wright I take Reyes everytime!
The problem with Wright as I see it is people are judging him based on expectations and using years he had a formidable linup of batters around him to make him the guy he was! Wright was never the guy to carry your team nor hit 40 HRs.
He is HoJo without Hernandez, Carter and Strawberry!
His best role is to clean up what the clean up hitters don’t or to drive in the cleanup hitters that drove in runs but didn’t score themselves!
Reyes is best at what he does! And in every definition I have seen from the SPEND WISELY bunch Reyes seems to fit the role perfectly.
He is putting up all the numbers they like,
He is entering his prime
He is the best player and the best offensive player at a potion not known for offensive production
and he IS home grown!
He gets hurt from time to time. So does Pujols, Rollins, A-Rod and any other player who makes that kind of money! Injuries happen and the way to deal with them is to keep him in tip top shape not purge him for the sake of two or three weeks a year when he is the batting champ the rest of the time!
As for who is more clutch?
Well all I will say is Reyes is the guy who MAKES those clutch situations by getting on base and turning those singles into doubles, doubles into triples!
And if Wright wasn’t considered by the MLB to be the ONLY dangerous hitter in the lineup maybe they don’t bear down on him so hard or pitch around him enough so that he can get those RBI big clutch hits he used to get when Delgado and Beltran were the ones everyone was worried about and they HAD to pitch to Wright!
any: No I’m saying both players hit their mark of being in the conversation at a later age. Cruz is a rare player that is almost dormant for years. Reyes just picked up the pace at a later age, just like Matt Kemp. What do they have in common? Paycheck on the line.
Reyes’ OBP increased significantly and as a leadoff hitter, that is a stat that some may seem scared by but I think it’s very important. A .380 ish OBP is what we have ALL been waiting for with regards to Reyes and sadly it only appeared in his walk year.
Metsie: I’ll start with what we agree on. Here is why clutch to me is a fan/media imposed quality. If you cant tell me who the most clutch hitters on say Seattle are, then there’s a problem.
Why can’t you? Because their at bats have little to no meaning to you as a fan of the Mets.
Remember ARod up until 2009 was the most unclutch player with the most talent in the sport right? Would you have taken him on the Mets assuming you had a spot open for him (personality aside etc). You bet you would right?
But then ARod performs brilliantly in 09 postseason, and here we are in 2011 and whats happening? He’s suddenly unclutch again. David Wright could hit 3 Game Winning HRs in an LDS, and then have a rough LCS and he’d be “unclutch” still. There’s no way to prove or disprove it because it’s all a matter of “please me now.”
Now what we disagree on.
With Reyes, I HAVE to consider his career from start to 2011. I think its such a farse to focus on just 2011 and assume every year will be like this. It’s incredibly logical to assume he will drop in production from his 2011 totals isn’t it?
“Reyes is best at what he does!” — What is that exactly? I’m not being sarcastic I’m just curious that’s all. He’s not a better defender than Tulo. Look we can argue this day and night but I don’t believe he is.
My main reason is you should know by watching him his mistakes are almost all mental. But lets just say they are tied because defense is such a tough thing to prove.
Is he the best leadoff hitter in baseball? Not sure, I’d say Ellsbury had a better year.
Best base stealer? I guess it depends how you define it. He certainly doesn’t steal as much as a guy like Bourn, Gardner…
He’s up there don’t get me wrong, but I jsut don’t know what he is “the best” at?
“He is putting up all the numbers they like” – Part of this problem is if you give a player a contract you have to include his years through 2010. In 2011, who can argue with his numbers? But is 1 year better to project a hitter or 8 years?
“He is entering his prime” — You really think that? How do you define prime? I define prime as they are at their physical best all around. I actually think he’s passing his prime. I don’t think he’s faster than he was 3 years ago, do you? I don’t consider guys like Crawford, Kinsler, Pedroia, Victorino in their prime… I consider them in their early years of decline.
I mean realistically how many players in the post-steroid age play at 31 how they play at 28? How long would you consider “prime years” to be?
“He is the best player and the best offensive player at a potion not known for offensive production” — I still disagree with this. I get that people love to be all over me for this but Tulowitski is better to have as your SS than Reyes. They are 2 totally different players and we don’t need to get into it… but being the 2nd best isn’t a bad thing (but he also has a luxury of Hanley being lazy lately)
I just think it’s natural for the human body to get slower as it gets older before strength is lost. Did anybody think the Crawford signing was a good idea? A guy who uses his legs as his 1st tool is riskier as they get older than a guy like a Pujols.
Ok I’ll pretty much skip on what we agree with this slight exception.
I CAN tell you who the most clutch hitter is on any team statistically speaking.
It’s all in the RBI!
I don’t define clutch by score or outs merely by opportunity.
I don’t consider a double that scores two run with two outs any more clutch than one with 1 out!
I don’t consider the same act anymore clutch if the score is tied, behind, or ahead!
So outs and score are irrelevent!
Opportunity and Success is key!
Thats my definition and I’m sure most will not agree with it. But thats my way of judging CLUTCH! Taking advantage of your opportunities!
Now onto the Reyes and his history.
When you look at past performance what is the point of that?
Is it not to SEE what he is capable of doing and hoping he will be close and able to repeat that act no?
Players Grow do they not?
Is Roy Halladay the same pitcher he was the first 5 years he came up?
Is he the same player he was in 1999 – 2004?
Or did he GROW and get BETTER? When did he become that guy and why would reyes not be able to grow as well?
Was his contract determined by what he did BEFORE he grew into the pitcher he has become or because he figured out something and SHOWED what he is capable of in the right conditions and therefore got the big bucks he has earned? Maintaining what that first year could be considered a FLUKE if not for the years after where he repeated that skill!
Reyes may not repeat what he did this year.
But he IS CAPABLE of doing that provided you can keep him focused and keep him doing what he did!
He is CAPABLE!
I am with you in the belief that his contract status may have MOTIVATED more focus.
But that just means I need to keep him focused to get it again! (Job for Terry Collins and the hitting coach!)
You can not deny that despite any disbelief in this season that Reyes has been the player that makes this team win! Just look at what it does when he is not in the lineup!
Again (Job for Collins and the trainer) to see to it that Reyes stays in good condition so he can remain in that linup and do what he does!
He has had some recent injury issues the past two years.
How much is because he is the only one making stuff happen and trying to make too much happen to make up for that!
(Same thing I think is Wright major issues right now maybe Bay too!)
Again it is the job of the manager and GM to make sure these guys are not in a situation where they have to do MORE than they can and as a reult get hurt or fail because the focus is doing SOMETHING not doing something well!
Reyes may have had a fluke season but he did show what he can DO when motivated!
Lets keep him and keep him motivated enough to repeat, He is still in his prime and maybe with a little help he won’t need to go as ALL OUT on the basepaths to score a run because the guys behind him will make turning singles into doubles or doubles into triples a little less important due to the run producers behind Reyes!
So no I don’t really take into account his first Two years as relevant and look at how he has grown almost EVERY YEAR with the exception of one horrible injury year 2009 (and lets ace it he wasn’t the only one hurt that year was he?)
He missed sometime yet whatever he missed certainly did not hurt his numbers in the least!
And if we had the guy who has shown he is CAPABLE of doing what Reyes has done I might be with you on letting him go!
We however do not have that guy!
Saying Reyes’ season of a fluke is a lot less accurate than saying Tejada found his stroke isn’t it?
Players grow and Reyes has grown more and more each year and if we just worked harder on his conditioning, worked harder to get him proper rest and sine we KNOW what the problem area is we should work to solve that not try and solve how do you replace Reyes and his production!
yes it will cost us Money!
Until you can come up with some names that we will buy with it that will EXCEED what reyes is acapab;le of doing I see no reason to save that money at this point in time!
I would rather save it someplace else and go get reyes help so he doesn’t need to take two bases on a single hit everytime up and maybe won’t have to overtax those hammy’s just so we can score a run!
He has shown he is capable and he has shown growth every year.
Culminating in the batting title this year!
Unless you have someone in mind who will be better to replace him in Reyes is STILL the safest bet for the money than what your proposing!
Because his past perfomance has showed what he IS CAPABLE of doing!
And none of his replacements have show that capability anymore than Reyes has!
There is no SS in the MLB that can do what reyes did!
You want to save money save it on not paying and playing players who are NOT the best at their position and show no capablility at all!
Keep what gets the job done Save the money by getting rid of what doesn’t!
Actually Metsie I do agree with your definition of clutch. Considering each AB an opportunity, not just those that come at the end of close games. Sure those are great, no question but if you had enough of a success ration beforehand your not in those situations as often where the whole game comes down to one or two AB’s.
I would say that Jose is entering his period of decline but I believe it will be a long and gradual one, not a fall off the cliff one. Speed decline more quickly than power but Jose will always be a very good baserunner and I believe a very good SS. When you start out slow and then get older that’s where you have problems. His 3B will be turned into doubles at some point, not outs. He still has areas where he can improve even more. His eye can get better, he can bunt more often and his bat shows no signs of slowing down and I don’t think it will for years.
He’s good on both sides of the ball meaning you don’t have to hide him. That makes him much easier to fill in behind.
I feel very strongly that 5/100 M+ is a very fair and credible offer and makes the most sense for all concerned. 6/120 M I’m not as fussed over. To me it’s a fence sitter. Anything more and I regretfully take the picks.
There is an awful lot of wear and tear on an everyday player that a pitcher doesn’t experience. A pitcher also doesn’t rely on quickness the way a SS does. The longest lasting pitchers are the big bulky power types. Those guys could never have played SS in even the rookie league. Cornerbacks don’t last as long as offensive lineman because their skill sets age too quickly. Same thing here.
Remember only the money is guaranteed, not the health or even the performance.
Basically Tag, The most significant hit can come at ANYTIME in the game!
A solo HR in the first inning may not seem clutch at the time but if the game stays scoreless after that it’s about as clutch as you can get by the time the 9th inning rolls around!
Not being clutch in a playoff is no different than in May!
No matter what part of the season if you fail to score when an opportunity is presented you failed to be clutch at that moment in time no matter what time that is!
It gets noted more in playoff situations but only because the entire country is watching that game which is kind of what Jessup was alluding to when he mentioned Seattle!
We don’t see them all that often (I have because I worked their Yankee games! LOL)
So we might not notice it as much as say Wrights success.
But statisitically it can be determined if you just note opportunity and success rate!
Cause the situation outside of the opportunity to me is irrelevent since at any point in time could be the clutch moment that gets the hit that wins the game!
Could not agree more Metsie.
Every AB is critical. Every single one from the 1st to the last. There is always something you can do to advance the chances of winning. You can never know before the game what spot is going to be the most important. 2 out nobody on can be the jumping off point for a big inning, you just never know. Same thing on defense. Every single guy, with the occasional exception of the CFer can do something on defense even when the ball isn’t hit to him.
Catchers and 2nd basemen back up 1B. (depending on runners) LFer backs up 3B on a throw from RF. There is rarely something that someone couldn’t do on every single play in baseball and any one of them, in any inning could be the difference.
That’s by the way one of the reasons I prefer to see a team develop their own position players rather than plugging in a couple of different ones every year.
Not only is team building and lineup construction lost on those saber people but if you watched the first 2 games of the World Series both games could easily have been decided on decisions. Decisions made by the manager, decisions on where to position infielders, a decision made by Pujols that left him out of position to field a cutoff from RF properly. How many saber people are even aware that the 1B is cutoff on any single to RF or CF with a runner on 2B (and no not extra base hit cuz then the SS/2B become cutoff and Albert would wind up trailing the runner). I would bet less than 10 percent of any saber people that have read this site even know that.
The decision to run on the pitcher and steal 2B in the 9th yesterday. The decision to possibly come home with the throw with runners on 2nd & 3rd and limping Pujols on 3B in first game. A hit made that point moot.
Also the pitching has been solid so you can’t make the decision to “try and work the pitcher”. This is a case where the pitcher is working the hitter so you really can’t waste time taking pitches.
All saber does is look at the box score after these 2 games and decipher the stats into something they are most likely not. As for the games themselves? These 2 games could not have been more exciting good old fashioned ballgames and I hope the rest of the series is like this.
why do you insist on assuming that people who appreciate/believe in/care about saber stats also have no knowledge of baseball (or ever played the game)?
Or that people that think a saber is a type of sword have some inate knowledge about the nuances ofplaying the game?
It is ludicrous to think that people so obsessed about baseball that they want to delve into the minutia of numbers to understand it better, never watch (or watched) the game or never played it.
If anything, saber fans (and Xtreme or any of the others can feel free to weigh in, since contrary to what you think I am not a “sabergoon”) probably know more about what is going on in a game than the average fan.
seeing the subtleties of the game as it unfolds has more to do with having played, or having watched hundreds or thousands of games (as some of the female fans here have, though you also like to insult them). I guarantee plenty of people just hanging out watching that never heard of WAR also have no clue about positioning on the field.
Hell, even the “crown prince” of moneyball that you all hate so much played professional baseball. So I assume he actually knows a little something about the game.
Any, a few days ago I challenged this fool in a discussion about strategy and as expected, he changed the subject and backed down. This guy is the worst. He paints everything with a broad brush, makes his uninformed opinions into statements and sad thing is he thinks he knows what he’s talking about.
yeah I never really understood that. I mean if we are to assume that Billy Beane is the guy who really put this generation of baseball analysts in the public eye… then saying people who look at saberstats have 0 knowledge of the game is ridiculous considering he was in all likelihood a better athlete than everybody who comments on this board.
And Yesterday I challenged someone to show who was the most successful and rank them based on spending and the same RUN AWAY happened!
Do guys who use sabers know less about the game than others.
In some cases yes!
Because they are using some stats that include UNEARNED ACTS to judge how good a player will be!
And that only works in cases where he faces the same pitchers who hit him or the same defenses who made errors to let him on and nothing to do with what the Batter can do if that doesn’t happen!
The PHOBIA about outs is the main one used to say Saber guys don’t know the game!
There ARE productive outs!
Your refusal to admit this in the Saber world is why you get tagged with not knowing the game!
You value OB when OB isn’t always the best thing you can do in every situation!
Like the good old runner on third with one out situation.
A WALK there limits the possibilities the next batter has of driving in the run! Anything hit to the IF can allow the DP to end the inning!
Hitting a SacFly is better because it actually scores the run the walk didn’t!
Sure it’s an out but the inning is still going and if the guys behind do their job there is no problem with having two outs! You did the damage now can the guys behind do more?
A sacrifice puts a runner on first into scoring position OR scores a runner on 3rd!
Yet Sabers call it the worst move in baseball!
Stealing is also frowned upon. Why because it might make an out? It also creates a RISP!
It is situations like these that the BIAS for OB makes people say you don’t know the game and how to play it!
Your putting stats above actions which is not the way you play the game!
Want proof?
Think about reyes leaving the last game to keep the batting title!
Your decisions regarding bunts and sacrifices are pretty much the same thing!
You put the STAT ahead of the GAME!
Well, I am not a “saber guy” (whatever that exactly is), but I do know (and this seems to be at the heart of what has you all worked up) is that they are “big picture” #s. As in, over the course of a year.
They do not claim (and as I understand it, would get used) to “tell” anyone what to do in a particular situation.
I would expect that even Bill James would say that game situations dictate what a player should try to do, and not that working out a walk (which again, seems to be to some people what OB is all about) is what they should try to do at all costs.
It does in respects that Sabers have an underlying philosophy that needs to be applied in order for the metrics you used for player prediction to work!
The focus is OB. OB GOOD OUT BAD!
The Metrics work only if you play the game and make moves based on that belief!
If you bunt with a plyer with HIGH OBP your taking away the attribute you selected him for!
You are HURTING his Sabers and as a result ruining the metic you picked him for!
It’s like asking HR hitter to bunt!
You picked the guy because he hits it over the fence and then tell him to do something that will stop him from doing so!
This is the effect of GAME MOVES Sabers has!
It’s not just a metric you buying into in order to get what you bought you must also play the game to the philosophy the metric favors!
If your picking for OB then sacrificing a runner over or a Sac Fly ruins the plan you picked for!
So THAT is how those who follow the Sabers also influence the game moves because in order for the Metrics to work properly you have to play the game to favor what it was you picked for!
Steals can make an out!
that erases the OB you picked for!
Bunting moves a runner over, But it makes an out! it ignores the extra base because it says you hurt the guy with the OBP you made bunt!
If you use the sabermetric approach is goes to belief and if you believe in the sabers you must also believe in it’s basis enough to make he moves to get what the metrics told you that you were going to get!
No sense in picking an OBP guy if you intend on bunting runners over with him, so you NEVER bunt the runner over!
Thats how it influences the game moves!
It’s not just a math your following it is an entire concept of how to play the game that if you don’t follow you don’t get what it was you SAY you wanted when you picked that player to be on your team!
oh, and by definition, saber stats need a lot of data to provide any meaningful results. Just like any other survey or analysis. 1 game, or 1 series, doesn’t really tell much about a player.
And they really are just another tool for helping quanitfy outcomes, and compare different types of players. And not something you keep track of instead of watching a game. that would be fantasy football.
Well if you watched the 1st 2 games of the World Series, saber is the least thing on anybody’s minds.
Tough decision making, offensively and defensively, poorly executed cutoffs, daring baserunning and good pitching have been what these games are about.
There is NOTHING saber to see in these games and the boxscores for the first 2 games could not be any less relevant because of the exciting competition on the field we are witnessing.
Yeah, Pujols mishandling the cutoff from RF and Ian Kinsler making the decision to steal on the pitcher really had a lot to do with this ‘saber’ garbage.
And both circumstances happening in well-pitched games where you BETTER swing at a strike
Bayonne: “There is NOTHING saber to see in these games”
You mean except that 1 team is built by a GM who leans on sabermetrics though right?
Which team would that be jessup?
I see nothing about either team that shows they are sabermetrically built at all!
Whats your basis for saying so please cite examples!
I don’t think your against OB Metsie I also know that you don’t really believe that an RBI is what knocked in the run. You know perfectly well most of the time a run is scored AND most of the time a run is driven in, it is done so in an OB positive manner.
RBI just counts the end result, it doesn’t cause the result. I know that you know this to be true as well.
Perhaps only 2.3 % of baserunners score, but 80% of runs are scored by baserunners.
Increase efficency in driving in more or increase the amount of guys OB all goes back to the same thing. Basically more hits and more walks and more RBI will follow.
I don’t know if this is a stat but I’ve always felt that efficency in driving in a run is important. What % of RISP (or runners on all bases) are you driving in?
That’s a much better standard than just how many you drove in. After all if you hit clean up behind Henderson and Boggs you’d have 75 to 100 more chances to drive in a run. You could have exactly the same percentage of success in those circumstances as someone hitting cleanup behind two ordinary OB % guys and easily have 25 more RBI. Easily, and simply because Henderson and Boggs got you more opportunities.
Does that make you a better “RBI guy?” because you had more RBI with exactly the same success ratio as someone else? Of course not.
If you want to compare the two components of scoring runs compare OB% to conversion % of runners in scoring position. Then see which “correlates” best.
I’d be interested in reading that.
Metsie: Are you trying to suggest Jon Daniels doesn’t embrace sabermetrics? I mean… really?
Here’s a nice interview for you to read.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3771
I hope you don’t come at me trying to say Daniels isn’t a saber-friendly GM when everybody knows he is.
Nolan Ryan and Jon Daniels are a great blend of traditional/saber ideals.
By the way I found this one…
Sun: Would you say that Billy Beane and the Moneyball movement shaped that change or was it more organic and would have happened regardless?
J.D.: That book and the subsequent discussion it created, I think it was an opportunity for a lot of people with maybe non-traditional baseball backgrounds to get involved and feel like they had a little bit more of a seat at the table … Obviously Oakland did not invent on-base percentage or plate discipline, but what they did do was identify it as a market inefficiency, and there were a lot of other clubs that probably used it in their evaluations. What [Moneyball] did was highlight the market forces involved in baseball and player acquisition, and it created a whole different level of discussion about the game.
Embrace is such a weak and unweighted word.
Most team EMBRACE them…
DO they rely on them as much as say Oakland or the Red Sox did?
Rangers are a good HR hitting, Good RBI and Good BA team as well.
Yes he embraces them, But not at the expense of those traditional metrics that are also good!
He looks at Sabers but I’m sure he also looks to see how much of those sabers are REAL player Accomplishments to know which sabers are telling him the truth or not!
You keep thinking I am against using Sabers which is never something I have ever said!
What I have said is MANY of te more TRADITIONAL SABERS (the ones Bill James made that were OB centric and not EARNED OBs) will lie unless you factor in how much of the sabers were PLAYER evident and not just Opposition and Pitcher evident!
OBP without BA is useless! The Pitcher can nullify the OBP he can’t really nullify the BA!
Daniels may look at OBP but his belief in the number has as much to do with the BA as the OB!
It’s not enough to USE METRICS!
You have to WEIGHT THEM!
And embrasing a Metric is a far cry from EXCLUSIVELY USING them and ignoring the Traditional metrics that built them!
Tag your wrong I DO believe that the RBI drove in a run that OB alone did not get!
Just as hitting a sacfly with a runner on third scored a run that the runner himself did not achieve!
I have no problem with getting guys on base!
But I also don’t see how I place more importance on a guy who only got HALF the job done and needed help to get it done the rest of the way!
If you ar trying to push a car who is the most important guy to your success? The guy who puts pressure on the car but can’t move it or the guy who comes in after him and makes the car move?
Does anything happen without that second guy?
Since the runner can not score on his own he could not CAUSE the run to score.
The guy who gave him the inertia to score did!
And he is rewarded with the RBI!
He did something that CAUSED a run to score that couldn;t score without an act that allowed it to happen!
Jessup EMBRACE is different from what you guys do!
He also embraces scouting and traditionals which most SABER RATTLERS around here refuse to do or have no acceess to!
BIG difference in hat Daniels uses and what you guys do around here!
And if you say otherwise I’m just going to ignore you for fear of arguing something that none of us can prove one way or the other because we are not there to see what happens!
EBBRASING is a far cry from RELYING ON!
FAR FAR CRY!
He embrasses and you guys RELY on!
Metsie come on!!!! Everybody in baseball knows that guys like Friedman, Daniels, Epstein are in the same category of guys who use and embrace sabermetrics! This isn’t some secret.
It’s okay to not know that ahead of time but don’t try and backtrack and pretend it’s not true!
I don’t think you’re against saber, (altho you think i’m so pro saber so thats funny). I think you’re against not knowing something. Jon Daniels is a GM because of the sabermetric GM generation and he is one of the young GMs in the sport KNOWN for his use of sabermetrics.
Please, I won’t even ask you to admit you’re wrong. Just let this thread die as your acknowledgment and don’t try to argue something that everybody in baseball knows.
Cuts offs are taught when? like about age 10? Ok no one knows them except you. OK.
Managerial decisions are one of the things people have loved about baseball for 100 years. Some people are more interested in them than others. That’s not news.
None of these elementary basics of the game are eliminated because people also enjoy the game from another perspective.
I’ve always said the baseball is the perfect game because it can be enjoyed by so many different types of people on so many different levels.
From the kid hunting foul balls and autographs to the girl working on her tan to the person who observes the lefty getting up in the pen to keep the other teams left handed pinch hitter on the bench to the wheel to the hit and run and the double cut off, no doubles D, the GB to the right side with a man on 2B w/no one out or the suicide squeeze.
I took a friend of mine to Shea to see her first baseball game when we were about 12. She wasn’t a big fan, never even watched the game. Even told me she liked the Mets “costumes” better than the other team’s (Pirates) We laugh about that all the time cause now she and her husband go to St. Lucie every March and she’s as knowledgable about baseball as anyone who’s never played could be (and probably more so than quite a few) She’s even the one who got her husband into baseball. Some kind of ticket plan or another every year for 20 years, did the book for years for her son’s LL teams, has a daughter who got a full scholarship for women’s softball and she not only went to all their games, she was into them and she BLEEDS blue and orange.
Ultimately how someone enjoys the game is none of anyone else’s business and personally I don’t see why anyone else would care. I’m not into sabermetrics but I’m not afraid to hear what people have to say about them. Some of it is actually interesting. If their enjoying the same sport I am what difference does it make?
And being taught that getting on base is important is also something you learn at 10 too.
So why then are you so against it?
Tag where did you ever get we are against getting OB?
What we are against is putting TOO MUCH importance on an act that is commonplace happens all the time and is given so much importance because it results in 2.3% of them scoring runs!
I mean is PA as important?
It relates just as much to RS as OB does!
Has to happen before you can score as you can’t score if your in the dugout!
This is the real problem here with this saber OBP discussion!
The Saber guys try to paint us as thinking we don’t LIKE OB when none of us say that!
We LIKE OB just don’t see it as IMPORTANT an act as the HIT that gets the OB and is much more an indicator of a good hitter than OB is!
Joe, that’s not true and shows a misunderstanding of what sabermetric stats show. I’m not sure where you gleaned that information, but there’s a very distinct role given to each place in the lineup.
“As traditional baseball fans we understand that middle of the order hitters feed off what top of the orders hitters do.” That’s EXACTLY the sentiment I and some other “saber” people have been preaching forever and why total RBI is a terrible way to judge talent. You can’t drive in guys who aren’t on base, and that doesn’t make you less of a hitter. By the same token, amassing large RBI totals simply because you have the most chances doesn’t make you a good RBI guy. Is the guy who got 200 hits in a season better than the guy who only got 150 hits in a season? What if the 200-hit guy had 650 ABs and the 150-hit guy only had 450. Who’s the better hitter?
I was shocked last night when Craig singled again and Joe Buck mentioned that Craig led the Cards this season in RBI per at bat (it’s not OBI, but it’s still better than pure RBI total) and mentioned that he showed great discipline in taking the pitch on the outer half the other way. That’s really all it in a nutshell. Plate discipline.
If you don’t swing at bad pitches, one of two things will happen: A) You will be given a free base or B) You will increase greatly your chances of getting a hit when you swing at hittable pitches. There is absolute zero negative outcomes in not expanding the zone.
And the idea that lead-off hitters are judged by an OPS standard is frankly ludicrous. You think because I’m a “saber,” I don’t like Ichiro? Or Alberto Callaspo? Or Emilio Bonafacio? Where did that theory come from?
Xtreem, thanks for your reply. Let me give you a few examples so you understand why I feel the way I do about how many of these new stats are used. For the last couple of years I have been learning about many of these newer metrics and even incorporating many of them in my own posts. As I said, I love the new stats, and I like looking at a player from different aspects based on different applied values.
What I don’t approve of is how so many use these stats to judge all players equally. I can see you don’t, and I wish everyone else was like you in that regard, but they are not.
Many times I just see players blasted based solely on their OBP without no thought given to some other assets that player might exceed in or what their role was on the team.
One example was Jeff Francoeur who was treated like a malignant cancer from the first day he put on a Mets uniform. He was bashed on saber sites for the entire season with thousands of comments bashing him relentlessly every single day of that 2009 season.
This is what turned me off. Francoeur batted .311 for the Mets in half a season but was bashed constantly because he was wasn’t drawing enough walks even though he batted 4-5-6 during his time with the Mets that year.
It was a relentless onslaught of jokes and hate posts everywhere which I tried to temper on MMO with positive pieces on Francoeur to try and balance it out. Only to have them assailed and mocked as well.
The whole thing turned me off. Omir Santos suffered the same fate when all he was was a backup catcher – Rod Barajas too.
It completely changed my whole outlook on what some were using these new stats for. More to denigrate players than to simply analyze them while understanding their roles.
That may be true, but don’t you think you’re being somewhat hypocritical when you say that you’re down on a lot of this because of the way some people treated some players? Isn’t that painting with a broad brush the same way “sabers” are mocked for doing?
Frenchy drew derision from the sabermetric crowd not so much for having a low OBP, but for being a waste of talent and saying some dumb things.
He’s got tremendous potential, but his heart has often been questioned and he never put in the work to take advantage of his gifts, settling for getting by on natural talent.
I’m shocked so many of the “real baseball men” around here defend him so swiftly.
Good talk, Joe. I’m going to AC for the weekend, so if you reply and I don’t counter, I’ll be back sometime Sunday night.
Your missing the point X…
It’s not how people are treating players it is how they are USING THE STATS to judge who they treat how!
I’m with Joe in this regard I don’t have any particular problem with OBP my issues and hatred all are about how some wrongly use them to judge a hitter and MOSTLY because tyhey award things the hitter didn’t really ACCOMPLISH just got gift wrapped like IBB and HBP!
If you would bother to make an EOBP (E=Earned) I would have much less issue with it being used to judge batters because at least it was taking into account what the batter actually did as opposed to what the Pitcher gave him!
WAR which compares phantom wins to phantom players and counts an RBOE as a better accomplishment than a hit is just another example of awarding a batter for something he had no influence in making happen!
And that notion Donal likes to use that you can take an extra base on an RBOE is just plain bull!
Just an excuse for awarding a player more for something he didn’t do compared to something he DID do!
If your going to use WAR to judge a BATTER then make the metric about what HE does not what the defense did!
Thats MY main issue with the Sabers!
RBOE is included because they want players with high OB to look better and will count every OB regardless of EARNED ACT or not to get those guys up to the top of the list!
Yet isn’t a sacrifice getting you just as many EXTRA bases as that error? The metrics in many cases are biased to make as many OB as possible regardless of earned or not!
Because it wants OB to be the dominant stat used for judging so it can be said how important it is!
But by doing so your saying less about what the BATTER CAN DO and crediting him with things he did not!
You want to make advanced metrics to use for judging Batters then you should only look at the acts the batter himself accomplished based on his OWN ABILITY not the lack of inherent in the defenses and pitching he faced!
And most people who have problems with Sabers it all stems from THAT and how poorly they are used to describe players who might be good but don’t look it sabermetrically because they don’t get the same GIMME’s some other similar ability guy got!
Not sure if I understand the question your asking Metsie? Who here values the RBI less than the OB? Is that the question?
If it is I guess the answer would be X or perhaps even me. Maybe Donal?
Is this the question you were asking?
RBOE hurts your OB% though.
It doesn’t hurt it Tag, It just isn’t counted at all like a Sac in BA isn’t counted!
You see the OBP doesn’t use PA, it uses AB+BB+SF to calculate (Most people don’t know that BTW)
If it used PA instead it WOULD go down as the RBOE isn’t counted…But then again it wouldn’t really tell you how often the guy actually was on base either would it?
They tried to not give credit for RBOE in OBP and rightfully so!
But they give NEGATIVE credit for SF by counting those!
Yet a SF can score a run and adance a runner one more base than he was able to get on his own!
All because they hate OUTS more than they value actual bases recieved!
Metsie! If you reach base on an error it’s still counted as an 0 for. It doesn’t increase your OB%.
xtreemicon, i will give you an example…. wright on a game goes 3-5, 3 rbi’s with 2 doubles and a single. obp is 600 and slug % is, 1000 right… a saber would think that is areat!!!!!!
but a person watching the game would not be impressed or even disgusted at the fact that wright in those 2 at bats where he didn’t get a hit, hit for inning ending DOUBLE PLAYS, now, the game is out of reach, is 10-2 and wright gets those 3 rbi’s in what we call, garbage time. a saber look at the boxscore and say, wow, wright did good, a PERSON attending the game, not so much… trust me, i SAW THIS MAN doing this and my thinking was “AHORA, MMGVO!!!” ..
That has nothing to do with “saber” vs. “traditional.” That has everything to do with watching the game or not watching the game. You’d do the same thing if you saw a 3-5, HR, 3 RBI boxscore. You’d think it was great, too. After you hear more details, you’d change your tune as quick as anyone would.
Really??? because in 2008 all ppl keep bring is the fact he batter over 300 in sept… forgetting everything else because they didn’t watch the games
If I remember correctly (and maybe I don’t), it was because everyone on your side got on his case about a handful of things he DIDN’T do and conveniently forgot about all the things he did do. And he was also being compared to players he performed better than when being denigrated. AND he was the only to get the blame when he wasn’t the only one to fail.
Believe me, I was as down on Wright for leaving Murphy on 3rd as the next guy, but no one can mention even one thing Wright did right that game, or that month. It’s like he’s always the villian.
wright on a game goes 3-5, 3 rbi’s with 2 doubles and a single. obp is 600 and slug % is, 1000 right… a saber would think that is areat!!!!!!
but a person watching the game would not be impressed or even disgusted at the fact that wright in those 2 at bats where he didn’t get a hit, hit for inning ending DOUBLE PLAYS, now, the game is out of reach, is 10-2 and wright gets those 3 rbi’s in what we call, garbage time.
How can Wright drive in three runs and the game is 10-2 and out of reach? So he drove in the lone runs of the game, but did hit into Double plays so you are disgusted? That would me that you HATE Wright for no other reason that his name is David Wright.
According to you – the pitching staff gave up 10 runs, no other player drove in a run, ONLY DW, but because he also hit into two double plays you are disgusted and think that sucks…….
That is the WORST form of a fan is what that is.
Good idea. Blame the one guy who did drive in some runs and give a free pass to everyone else who didn’t.
Great example…………of bias.
Tag…
Please tell us in your travels here WHOP discards the RBI in favor of OB in most cases around here?
I made a post that had 200+ comments when I tried to value an RBI more than an OB and which side screamed and dismissed the RBI as worthless team stat compared to the OB which scored only 2.3% of the time?
I’m counting on you to be fair in your answer as I know you are capable!
You confused me with the reply miss! LOL
I’m just saying you made a statement about blaming a guy who made an RBI but not the guys who didn’t.
Isn’t that acknowledging the RBI is more important than the OB since the OB didn’t score the run?
No Metsie, I was just responding to the example put forth by Alex. He wrote about the guy who gets 3 RBI (in garbage time) in a game they lost 10-2 (go figure) so I picked it from there.
I understand what the point was with Alex…
Just pointing out how it relates to those who value the guy OB who didn’t score the run higher than the guy who drove him in!
It’s a bit hypocritical isn’t it to do that?
Aren’t fair standards, STANDARD in all situations?
Think about it!
“If you don’t swing at bad pitches, one of two things will happen: A) You will be given a free base or B) You will increase greatly your chances of getting a hit when you swing at hittable pitches. There is absolute zero negative outcomes in not expanding the zone.”
Xtree, some good hitters over the years have swung successfully at what is called ‘bad’ pitches. Yogi Berra was a great bad ball hitter. Absolutes seldom apply in baseball. I prefer ‘most likely’ to ‘absolutely’.
And if you don’t swing at all then you didn’t really ACCOMPLISH the OB the Pitcher gave it to you!
So why use an UNACCOMPLISHED act to rate a player as better than another?
Drawing a walk is not so much an accomplishment anymore than getting hit by a pitch or getting intentionally walked an accomplishment.
Yet they are all treated as EQUAL GOOD in OBP and then used to judge players based on a stat that does not ensure what the evaluated player will do merely how bad the pitching and defense was he faced!
This is the point that Xtreem doesn’t want to admit!
He wants to judge a batter based on things the pitcher gave him!
It’s like judging success by the amount of money you have and not taking into account who EARNED the money and who just got it given to them in a will!
PA is not used!
Here is one calculator note the form fields.
http://www.miniwebtool.com/on-base-percentage-calculator/
Here is what Wiki Says
http://www.miniwebtool.com/on-base-percentage-calculator/
Here is more…
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/40490/calculating_basic_baseball_stats_on.html
None reflect the RBOE in OBP at all!
But count the SF as a PA which counts it as a negative (failed at bat) despite the fact it is productive and moves runners one base more than they had!
Show us the calculation your using to come up with OBP please because RBOE has never been counted in the PA it was made based on hits+BB=HBP+SF with no count of PA where an RBOE was made since it doesn’t use REAL PA it uses a calculated version of it that takes into account SF but not RBOE!
Right Metsie. Hits, Walks, HBP and SACs are added to AB’s to come up with PA’s right?
RBOE does not get added in because statistically they are treated as outs.
If you were hitting were hitting .300 (say 30/100 and got on by error you are now hitting under .300. 30/101 or .297
If you also were at .333 OB when you got on by error (30 hits/5 walks/0 HBP/0 SAC in 105 PA’s) your OB% just went down. now your at .330.
still the same 30 hits, still the same 5 walks, same HBP and same SAC’s but one more PA.
Same hits, same walks, same HBP, same SAC’s but one more PA and one more AB.
Back in’41 they treated SAC’s as outs or Williams would have hit .416 but RBOE has always been treated no different than the out it was deemed it should have been.
No one’s BA or OB has ever gone up after reaching base on error, nor has anyone’s BA or OB failed to go down after reaching base by error.
The whole reason for charging an error in the first place is to not give credit to the hitter for making an out that the fielder failed to record one on.
RBOE, at least in official calculations of BA and OB, always negatively affect the hitters BA and OB.
Perhaps your thinking of some kind of sabermetric thing in some other stat that gives credit to a hitter for reaching by error? I’m just guessing here but that might be where the confusion comes in.
It’s included in the AB’s which are included in the PA’s.
Say on opening day, your 1st AB of the season. Fly ball CF, ball is dropped. What’s your BA? .000.
1 AB, 0 hits.
What’s your OB? .000? 1 PA (remember PA’s are AB’s + the other stuff) so 1 PA and 0 hits, walks ect.
RBOE counts as an AB but doesn’t reward you in any of the categories that contribute to raising your OB. It’s not a hit, it’s not a walk, it’s not a HBP, nor is it a SAC
It’s essentially an out, with the explanation (via the error) of how you made an out, and yet still got on base.
Statistically speaking reaching base on an error is no different than making an out.
No Metsie. In any calculation of OB% or BA a reached base on error hurts your OB and your BA. You are charged with both a PA and an AB and your RBOE is recorded as it would have been if the play had been made, an out.
Now in WAR or stuff like that I cannot say but as far as the official calculations of OB and BA errors are treated as the outs they should have been. That’s how you get the old hometown scoring.
SAC’s do not count as AB’s therefore BA wise it’s almost as if the event did not occur. For OB% reasons they are subtracted out.
If the current formula was in use in 1941 Ted Williams would have hit .416.
And that would have been due to SAC’s NOT affecting BA. RBOE has always been charged against BA and OB. Always.
” Now it’s all muddled. Middle of the order hitters are expected to have OBP like the best table-setters, and leadoff men to have an OPS like the best sluggers in the game.
That’s what I dont get or agree with.
Team building and lineup construction is lost and we have one-size fits all standards that are applied no matter where you bat in the lineup.”
that is simply not true. What we have now is a better idea of the importance of certain abilities (OBP, power, speed etc) but it’s not one size fits all.
If you have a .500+ SLG and an OBP of like .320, you can still have a high WAR. Especially if you play a position like 2B, SS, C, or CF. If you can play up the middle well, hit 30+ HR and maintain a not horrible OBP, you’re a very valuable playr.
From a practical standpoint every AB can advance the chances of winning or take away from it.
A leadoff hitter could find himself at bat with two out bases loaded. A clean up hitter could find himself leading off an inning. It’s what you do in those situations that matter.
When a team loses a game, series or season by one game their is always something more that every single guy could have done to make a difference. I really have to question how much people have played baseball when they only blame one guy for a lost season, especially when that one guy had the best numbers on the team as Wright did in 2007 and 2008.
Even if Wright never had a single HUGE hit in the 8th or 9th inning (which I doubt) didn’t any of his 42 doubles, 33 HR’s and 124 RBI help win a lot of games? .302/.390/.534 in ALL AB’s help keep it close? Delgado had poor 1st half’s in both 2007 and 2008. Poor August’s in those years too. Couldn’t he have done a little more? Why is it always and only Wright? Cause he was the only one you ever heard from after every close loss? He’s more associated with the loss since no one else was out front and center? I think that’s a big part of it (and a part of his worsening results in LIPS) but I don’t think that’s all of it by any stretch of the imagination.
Blaming Beltran for one AB in the 2006 NLCS, especially after he had a terrific series is the mark of a really uneducated fan but one could say the same thing about blaming Wright for the lost 2008 season and giving everyone else a pass.
Wright had a MONSTER 2nd half in 2008. Had a great April too. Good May and a below par June and again his numbers were the best on the team overall and remember this was a team that routinely gave up 10 or more runs and blew 33 saves. Think about it. They won 88 games while blowing 33 saves. That’s hard to do but it’s even harder to understand pinning the entire blame for 2008 on the guy that had the best offensive season cause really if he hadn’t, we wouldn’t even been close at the end.
It’s very hard to justify blaming just one guy but if your predisposed toward that Wagner’s 13.50 ERA in four NLCS appearances would rightly raise an eyebrow and Glavine’s game 162 start in 2007 would take the cake but ultimately every single member of the team could have done one thing better and it never would have even come to the last day.
Can someone tell this sabregeek that Wright is a middle of the order hitter. As one, his responsibility and chances to impact a game with men on base, are greater than Jose’s. Jose isn’t paid to drive in runs.
Unfortunately, this views of players via a shatsheet is the ONLY way these “baseball fans” comprehend a game. A guy can go 4-4 or 7-12 in a 3 game series and fudge a month of stats. Using stats for a month is a VERY good way of spinning a player into being something he’s NOT. Then again, look who’s offended by someone HAMMERING Wright and defending Jose Reyes.
Edited for comment guidelines violation.
So what you’re saying is…….sample size is key when judging the body of a player’s work.
Another edited comment? You better behave. You could get banned again.
No,
What he’s saying is Wright is a middle of the order guy and has more chances to drive in runs than a leadoff hitter like Jose Reyes.
Sorry, I must have misconstrued the meaning of this: “Using stats for a month is a VERY good way of spinning a player into being something he’s NOT.”
So then wouldn’t Jose’s job to be to get on base?
I honestly (and I’m not being sarcastic) never heard that a “clutch” player can only be a 3-4-5 hitter who’s job it is to drive in runs.
Why is Jeter called clutch then?
If Reyes wasn’t clutch in 07/08 and playoffs, then he wasn’t clutch right? It doesn’t matter WHERE he hit does it?
Reyes hasn’t been any more clutch than Wright over the years.Reyes was awesome in 2006 with RISP but not so much since and at one point last year he was 2 for 29 w/RISP.When he caught fire in May he then started to hit in the clutch.He played like Ty Cobb up until he injured his hammy.
2007 and 2008 Reyes was awful in September and while Wright had great Septembers in those 2 years he failed in some late game at bats that garnered him the unclutch title,despite hitting 2 and 3 run HR’s as early as the 1st inning in a few games but we as fans get pissed when a guy fails with the game on the line late in games and only remember the failures.
I do agree with Alex and Omar fan believe it or not that Wright the last few years rarely comes up with the game on the line and comes through.He did for a good week and a half,two weeks after he came off the DL and showed signs of the old Wright by going to RF but then fell right back into his old habits of trying to crush every pitch 500 feet.
One thing I dont understand is why Reyes isn’t regarded the same way? Is it because he just came off a career year? He has been just as futile as Wright with the game on the line until he caught fire last year and played like Ty Cobb.Neither one of these guys has been very good at coming up late in games and turning a loss into a victory.How many games have we lost in the 8th and 9th innings with either Wright or Reyes failing to get the tying and sometimes go ahead runs in.Lets be fair here,It’s why we have had so many heart breaking losses the last few years.
Excuse me but don’t you guys use Sample Size whenever the numbers don’t show what you say they should show?
Is an OBP of .500 good if the sample size is small?
What is the cutoff SAMPLE for determining if a stat really tells a story?
What sample size is required to assume a stat will be maintained?
If you do not trust low sample then how do you ever decide a guy who is breaking in has what it takes to play?
Samples are often used to dis-believe a result. I don’t really have a problem with it but the problem here is the traditionals (other than BA) don’t normally use percentages where as Sabers try to make nothing BUT percentages!
And it is only the PERCENTAGES that really LIE based on Sample size!
OBP, SLG, WAR and all those Sabers who use them to describe players and hide those samples inside a percentage!
why should omar get banned?? becaue he speaks the truth!?!? all his comments in here get “hidden due to low rating”, not because of what he says, but who says it, he on most occasions speaks the truth yet he gets penalized because most ppl who infected this site don’t wanna hear any negativity about alderson, wright and depodesta… same with bayonne, maniac, me, metsie… is a real shame what some ppl have done to this site who used to be just wonderful to be in…
Alex, there’s some evidence that you’re one of the fans who gives out a lot of thumbs down. The pot calling the kettle black, so to speak. Now lighten up, my friend.
Hmm. I wonder who just gave me my thumbs down. Would you know, Alex?
Des, no it wasn’t me… i can only thumbs up/down once, and as of now you got 2 on the first post and 1 on the one asking me if it was me. i don’t thumbs down as much as others do, but if don’t agree with your comment i WILL thumbs down. i man up to my actions.. here, thumbs up on both to PROVE you wrong!
Alex, really I don’t give two hoots if you thumbed down my innocuous statements. But maybe it was done by one of your CORE buddies.
Des, we have many discussions and years past, is not secret we don’t like each other, but i respect you and you do the same.. what goes on with you and others is not my concern, also, the CORE is my thing as donal told you yest. maybe have him investigate who’s thumbing you down, i don’t for the most part..
Did you see the amount of thumbs down des got on his latest “I hate Ruben Tejada post and I wish Reese Havens made it to the majors before tejada did but i lost that call to Bayonne” post?
No Des there are a lot more from the OTHER SIDE giving thumbs down based on users not points!
Mostly guys from AA like WHO and other Saber Rattlers who are trying give the saber side more weight without ever leaving a comment!
Look at the thumbs down on most posts and look at the replies!
You will see there are two, three and four on one side and they make posts after that. On the other side you will see anywhere from 4-8 and NONE of them bother to post because they are not here to discuss just vote for their Saber brothers.
The voting thing is something we could really do without unless it forces a comment to be made before you vote!
Then we would expose who is voting based on user and why they voted thumbs down!
Because they would have to say WHY they did it!
I didn’t say he should get banned. I told him to be careful so he doesn’t. He’s been banned before, so it could happen.
And he doesn’t speak the truth, at least about what’s important. The first true thing he said about baseball was five minutes ago, right above, when he cited sample size was important, but I guarantee he doesn’t even know why. A guy like you, we talk baseball and are usually on different sides of it, but we talk baseball. Like before with Beato and Iggy. This guy only shows his face to talk about how sabermetrics is stupid, but has no idea at all about it, and hides when people start talking about real baseball.
For the life of me, I will never understand why some find it so difficult to have a simple baseball debate without resorting to name calling and insults. I simply don’t get it.
Why do some think that using profanity or screaming at people will make their arguments any better or stronger?
I hardly agree with a lot of what is posted here and yet in all my years doing this, I’ve never once insulted any individuals or cursed them out for not agreeing with me.
First of all when I post or comment my intent is never to convince anyone of anything. I tell it like it is based on how I feel, and that’s that. The reader can agree or disagree or love it or hate it, I really don’t care, my only goal was to share my own opinion on something whatever that something may be.
Me and you disagree all the time but we respect each others opinions, make an interesting debate out of it, and in the end we both might have learned something new. What is so wrong with that?
Well, Joe……..all I can say is that if everyone was just like you and I, it wouldn’t be so obvious how great we are.
Mostly it comes from those who can’t deal with the points made in a discussion and then resort to insulting the guy they can’t respond to since they have nothing else!
We have a lot of posters on BOTH sides that NEVER make a point they just act like cheerleaders fior the guys TRYING to make points, Try to take the conversation off track to hide the fact that maybe the poster had a point they can’t defend against!
And sadly jessup has been falling into that trap with his “You Must be Crazy I can’t help you tacts when confronted with Data!”
It’s contagious and you need to nip it in the bud from the start so it doesn’t snowball!
Even I have fallen into the sewer trap from time to time…
Human Nature I guess!
Opinions never have nor will ever be the TRUTH………
Edgar, you stated what was my own reaction. In fact, truth vs. opinion has been argued way back to the ancient Greeks. It’s new to some baseball fans.
You cannot fudge a month of stats in a 3 game series. Like 7-12 would cover up a 25-125. Give us a break.
How many times can you make a post without actually saying anything of substance…I counted two so far so good!
That’s because I don’t bow to the church of Metsie and agree with your dumb comments.
My favorite is “he quit on the team by trading Beltran”
YOU QUIT on the team for not looking for the future!!!
Sure they were a game behind the Cards, but at that time the team could NOT even play .500 ball for more then a few days, yeah they were going to be in it……..
PSSSST I have a bridge to sell you……………
Not play .500 for a few days?
Excuse me but they had a .519 Win Pct in May and July and a .593 Win Pct in June!
What future did you get for K-Rod and Beltran?
Wheeler AND?
You sold off two All star players for a SINGLE MAYBE PITCHER?
And you say I am the one buying bridges?
Your the one selling Manhattan for $25 worth of beads here!
The bottom line is The Mets aint paying him 23mil a yr. Some team probably will and that is that!
Players pull out early on the last day of the season with batting titles on the line all the time. It’s nothing new. I would rather My last memory of him being a met doing what he does best, Using his speed to leg out a bunt single to win a batting title, than to be of him striking out with the bases loaded or some other regretable feat. Sure it would stink for him to leave to a different team but the fact that you would pay “Anything” for the mets to keep him from the Phillies is why you are not a Major league GM. If he is going to cost you 6 years 160 million dollars, for example, but you could get (not likely) CC and Rollins both or someone comparable for slightly more, you would have to pull the trigger on the pitcher and the former mvp, as much as I hate rollins. You do what makes the club the best, and sometimes just keeping Reyes isn’t going to be the best if it hamstrings us salary wise for years, especially when it gets to the last year of his contract and he has a couple years of only playing 50 games cause of injuries. So yes, I could stand it, even though I would be upset, if we lose him to another team but replace him with a player (preferably a pitcher) on the same level and an adaquate replacement at ss. Pitching wins championships and we certainally haven’t won any with reyes in our lineup
I don’t care. If he goes he will be on another team and if he is not a met I don;t care what he does. He is a FREE agent. The decision is his. He can take less if he loves it here. He won;t but he is FREE to choose.
[...] Metsmerized asks if you’re really ready to see Jose Reyes in another team’s uniform – like maybe a Phillies uniform? [...]
I propose an idea. Ignore Alex. Everything he says- pretend like he is not here.
i see i have yet another fan on this site…
Hey I would be fine if you weren’t so hostile. Going around throwing insults on a METS BLOG as if someone was threatening your life. Let me repeat it METS BLOG, you know on the INTERNET. I mean Christ.
i’ve said it all along, a few years back it was all baseball here, it was about winning, what players can help us win, who should we trade for to help us win… then it became a weird obsession with #’s, sabermetrics articles were being posted every week, OBP this, BABIP that, forgetting that if you watch the games or attend the games, YOU DON’T NEED numbers to tell you what you JUST WITNESSED. is gotten to the point that one person on this site said, that if you hit a weak as hell ground ball out to second base and reyes who was at 3rd base scores, IS CONSIDER at clutch at bat because is in the saberstats… that is all you ppl need to hear about sabermetrics
As much as I love baseball and the entire season will be over in a few short days, I can’t wait for the WS to end. Because what I really can’t stand is the rehashing of the Will He Stay Or Will He Go debate over and over. There’s only so much one can say.
When the WS ends let’s get on with it. At least that way, we’ll have something new to kill each other over. Either a signing some don’t want to see or Jose moving on to another team.
SRT, as a mets fans, there’s nothing else to talk about.. that is why all this articles are being thrown out there
SRT if the conversation was really about Will he stay or WIll he go I would have no problem with it!
The conversation seems to be SHOULD WE KEE HIM SHOULD WE NOT!
The other would be about what Reyes will do…
The one we are having is about what Sandy should do…
BIG difference!
Sandy should try to keep him!
Do everything he can to do so and then if Reyes goes elsewhere it will be because of what Reyes did not because of what Sandy decided!!
It’s one thing if reyes gets a 200 Mil offer and takes it.
Quite another if he gets a few mil more than Crawford and we refuse to meet it!
I agree though I wish the people around here would stop trying to tip the scale one way or another and just let it happen.
Then when it happens one way or another we can decide who gave up on who based on the offers made and accepted!
If he got Carwford’s contract I cannot complain that we lost him. Seven years 20 M per, no way. 6/120 to me is 50/50. 5/100 + whatever he wants (no trade, no type A arb, vesting option, whatever) That’s very doable and I see no reason why we shouldn’t do that. That would be Alderson (but really the Wilpon) walking away, not Jose leaving. 6/120 would be neutral anything more is Jose taking the best offer/place to compete/place for his family to live. His choice and one he’s earned but he should certainly be offered every cent of 5/100 +.
Srt I agree with you fully, that’s why I wrote this article about how we may feel if he ends up leaving and not dissecting where he is going to stay or go.
Nobody knows what he is going to do, but you can sure of one thing. He’s going to go where the most guaranteed money is, so if we don’t offer the most as Wayne Hagan says you can “kiss him goodbye”
I wish I didn’t agree with your statement, Dan.
Long live Jose in a Met uniform.
Metsie:
Two things (I replied here because I didn’t want it to get lost)
“Jessup EMBRACE is different from what you guys do!”
“EMBRACING is a far cry from RELYING ON!”
A) I still for the life of me can’t figure out why you think I rely on sabermetrics? Have I ever lectured you about things like WAR( which I told Joe D today in another blog that I don’t like it). When have I have gotten into it with people here on anything other than OPS, WHIP, OBP which are BASIC sabr stats at best (exc: obp). The other day I said I think BABIP is undervalued, but I don’t live and die by it.
B) Daniels is one of the few who are known for their heavy use of sabr’s, and frankly I haven’t seen Alderson come out and talk any differently that would suggest he “relies” on sabrs so how is he different from Daniels?
Jessup – Let me explain because you took it a little more pesonally than maybe you should have…
I used the word YOU which I will say was meant for FANS WHO USE SABERS!
As for texas since neither you or I know the recipie of what Daniels uses in what quantities I will say this.
His use of Sabers is a lesser percentage of his decision making than it is for Regular Joe Q Pub who has no scouting department believes in Sabers as a religionist who will say Ignore BA and Traditionals because Sabers are the better thing to look at!
EMBRACING Sabers means he uses them and thats about it! He has scouting and he probably uses traditionals as much as he used to but also added Sabers into the mix!
Thats a far cry from some SaberRattlers around here and on boards like AA who have no scouting dept, think anyone who even dares to look at a traditional is lost crazy or behind the times and in fact insists that most traditionals should be ignored!
Ask a guy like Tango who will poopoo any mention of BA and dismiss RBI as a TEAM STAT because they have an OB agenda that needs to diminish anything BUT OB!
They RELY on Sabers because thats all they have aside from the traditionals they wont’t even look at!
He said he EMBRACES them you say HEAVY USE!
I don’t see where embracing and HEAVY come together myself!
RELYing is about exclusive use!
Embracing means to add it to the mix of what he does!
VERY DIFFERENT meaning if you ask me!
And it shows because the high OBP guys he is getting are not just HIGH OBP they have a high BA as well!
And most Sabers guys who refuse to look at BA because it’s passe wouldn’t get the same result!
Daniels does his homework!
Using Sabers is much like this debate we are having on Spending!
It’s not how much you use but how you use it!
Wouldn’t you agree with that?
Metrics tell the story they are built to tell but some muct be crosschecked with Traditionals to see how much is real and how much is not!
Such as the case with OBP and BA!
A guy can have a high OBP but if he has a low BA then he isn’t really EARNING that OBP he is either getting hit by pitches wholesale or getting walked like crazy!
Something thats lost the second the pitcher stops hitting him and throwing him Balls!
I think what you don’t grasp with GMs that use sabermetrics is that this is not 2001. Everybody uses scouts, nobody is sitting in a dark room with a computer and building a team. Oakland was an EXTREME example which got the ball rolling. Theo Epstein in Boston didn’t rely solely on sabermetrics but he certainly used them more than Omar Minaya wouldn’t you say?
There are guys like Friedman, Epstein, Daniels, Moore, Hoyer, Byrnes who are young and probably wouldn’t have a job without sabermetrics being a part of the game.
Ignoring that is just silly. I’m not saying Daniels relies on sabermetrics because I’m saying no GM solely relies on sabermetrics. None. Not even Billy Beane. The A’s have a director of scouting who has been employed by the organization since before Beane got there. If he relied solely on sabr’s why would he employ a scouting staff?
At the end of the day, GM’s listen to their scouts, the ones who use sabr use it to give them more data, because the more data you have the most informed decision they believe you can make.
If you look at all of the teams in MLB and say give me the top 25% that use sabermetrics. GM Jon Daniels is certainly in that 25%.
It’s okay to acknowledge it.
Dude this is what frustrates me about you…
You skirt the point I make to walk around the subject I was talking about!
But first to address what you said!
Using sabers does not say HOW MUCH! I USE Sabers am I a Sabermtric Guy?
This is the assumption you are essentially making here with GMs, You don’t know how much Omar used Sabers nor even if Daniels used them more! Just mentioning that you use them (and especially in the case of the word EMBRACE which is a LIGHT HUG by definition!) Doesn’t mean he is a SaberGuy in the same vein as Tango Tiger nor does it mean he subscribes to the same Philosophy Bill James was promoting when he came up with the original set of metrics he used to promote that Philosophy!
Now to what I said…
Guys like Bill James and TangoTiger do not have the benefit of other things to look at other than stats!
They probably use 100% Sabers or lets say 90% Sabers 10% Traditionals.
They are relying on Sabers a hell of a lot more than Daniels is! Thier selections will be very different because they don’t recognize their bioas towards certain events that Daniels does not appear to have when you look at the statistical makeup of his team!
The guys you mentioned have jobs because they had an open mind, did all the things a GM would do PLUS something extra, not because they use Sabers but because they were willing to do work most GMs at the time wouldn’t do!
They all EMBRACE Sabers now because someone does the work to calculate them for them! All they have to do is look at them!
If those guys do anything different is they probably know how to create their OWN metrics at will which have little to do with Bill James philosophy or Tango Tigers “lets get a lot of RBOE because they are better than Hits” mentality!
The word Sabermetrics is interchanged by the Saber crowd to include any stat that isn’t a traditional regardless if they really were part of Bill James’ Originals or if they even reflect OB as the most important thing which most SABER guys on this site believe (due mostly because of Moneyball). Daniels and Epstien may very well use a spreadsheet but that doesn’t mean they use Sabers!
They use deep statistical analysis which has NOTHING to do with OBP Centric calculations nor does it subscribe to the belief OBP+SLG=RS+
Sabermetrics = Deep Statistical Analysis!
But Deep Statistical Analysis does NOT Equal SABERMETRICS!
It goes WAY beyond what Bill James and Tango Tiger believe and support!
It makes it’s OWN Metrics to find whatever it is they pinpoint as MOST IMPORTANT which may or may not be OBP that Bill James and tango Tiger believe is most important!
And if you don’t understand that then you obviously don’t get what the MLB is actually doing with the Sabers!
They use them but not the way Bill James intended. And the reason for that perhaps is they UNDERSTAND as I do the flaws inherent in many of the Metrics and philosophies Sabers were basically based on.
They have evolved FAR BEYOND what all the average SaberRattlers read and learned about!
They RELY on the Sabers exclusively and GMs know where they are poor and try to compensate!
Trying to make thier success due to Sabers alone is putting a little more stock into those uses than they actually do!
The old fashioned method STILL dominates their evaluation proccess. They just use the extra tools available and in some cases make their OWN when they don’t trust the ones that ARE available!
And THAT is the main difference between them and someone else who uses Sabers!
To the two lovebirds who commented on Reyes “quitting” on the team because he sat out the last home game of the season at the beginning of this topic, all I have to say is that it could’ve been worse: Reyes could’ve bolted out of the locker room after blowing a big spot in a big game like some another certain future big money FA & “clubhouse leader” did the other night, letting kids take questions from the media. You guys cannot be serious about Reyes “quitting” on the team to protect a batting crown. C’mon!