21
2011
SaberMETrics Already Taking Shape In 2011
An article by 
When Sandy Alderson took the job as General Manager of the New York Mets, we knew this ballclub would likely take a few more pitches and maybe have the feel of the Moneyball Oakland A’s to an extent; but if you check the stats, you will see that the effect of Alderson in Flushing has already produced results, particularly on the offensive side of things:
The Mets are leading the National League in walks with 534, second in the league in OBP and Hits, but most importantly rank the third lowest in the NL in strikeouts. What all this means is the Amazin’s are walking more, getting on base and putting the ball in play, creating a better offensive game.
To compare this with 2010, here are some splits of New York’s offense over the past two seasons:
The bottom line is simply runs, and the fact is that the Mets are 6th in the league in runs scored in 2011. That in comparison to 2010 when the Amazin’s were 13th in the the NL — only ahead of the Pirates, Astros and Nationals — and it is safe to say there have been significant improvements to the Mets offense.
At the end of 2010, the Mets were 6th in the NL in ERA and the offense was seen as the biggest problem, now one year later that idea has taken a complete-180.
Is that simply due to Alderson implementing his sabermetric approach to the game? Bearing down on players to take more pitches? In turn creating a small-ball offense that manufactures runs? …I think so.
About the Author: Clayton Collier
Clayton, a Long Island native and die-hard Mets fan, started writing online about three years ago. He is currently a Journalism major with a minor in Broadcasting at Seton Hall University. Although very disappointed with the current state of the team, Clayton remains hopeful that the young prospects in the farm system will bring the Mets back to a respected franchise in baseball once again. Besides writing for MMO, Clayton is also a staff member at 89.5 WSOU, Seton Hall's modern active rock radio station. You can contact Clayton by following him on Twitter: @Clayton_Collier or E-mailing him at MaybeNextYearMets@yahoo.com
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Has anyone noticed how Lucas Duda has become an RBI machine in short time he is here. 50 RBI in 300 plus at bats with 21 doubles and 10 HR.
Lucas Duda is a good hitter with tons if power batting behind a few guys who get on base at a good clip. Hence, lots of RBI. He’ll have well over 100 next season if Reyes and Murphy/Tejada have 600 healthy PAs each in the 1-2 spots. It’s not sabermetrics. It’s the age old formula for scoring runs. Get ‘em on, get ‘em in.
Agreed on Duda. He’s been a breath of fresh air in this stinker of a season.
With the most important thing – getting ‘em in. RBI still the more important stat and if you haven’t learned that lesson now after this year you never will.
Mets also leading the league in LOB or near the very top.
I also wonder what percentage of that OBP stat is the guys that are in the LOB stat? Very curious to know that.
Bayonne – You mean you didn’t know that Omar Minaya was one of the all-time great Saber GMs?
Did you forget the Mets OBP was .340 in 2008, .342 in 2007, .334 in 2006.
The Mets were doing the saber boogie long before Alderson came onto the scene.
I wasn’t aware OBP was a saber stat. Good thing you were here.
Never mind that sabermetrics are a method of measuring production and being misused by the usual suspects.
And how did they compare to the rest of the league those years?
what was their slugging?
Runs per game?
Omar hired a sabermatrician when he took the job as have most teams which is why the A’s no longer have that as an advantage,But we still have a few delusional Omar Fans(why I have no fkn clue) that think Alderson is all about sabermetrics and it won’t work even though he drafted nimmo and a bunch of high school kids based on scouting and projecting upside potential.Omar drafted for signability and present needs .BTW all teams use sabermetrics now.
LMFAO @ backdoor crediting Sabertoolshed garbage as the reason Omar did well here. He signed or traded for STAR PLAYERS.
Gotta love it!
He didn’t do well here except fr one year when 50 year old El Duque anchored a staff trying to win it all and had no depth when guys went down hence Jose Lima and Jeremy Gonzalez getting starts.He did by the way acquire guys like Beltran and Delgado who are prime examples of sabermetric type players OB+Slug OPS. You’re so cluless it isn’t even funny.
Except they are 5th (as of this morning) in Runs Scored in the NL, so, RBIs aren’t a problem. the LOB may be problematic or it may just be a by product of getting a lot of guys on.
the bigger problem is that they are 4th highest in Runs Allowed.
Oh, and the slugging is not good.
The high LOB% probably has something to do with the fact that the team has hit the 4th fewest HRs in MLB and that the team is 9th worst in Isolated Power.
I’m sure the lack of power is a big issue. Slugging and ISO are the only major offensive categories the team isn’t among the league leaders in.
I’m just saying when you score the 5th most runs in the NL, maybe the offense isn’t the biggest problem.
The Big Red Machine also led the league in LOB.That’s the result of getting a lot of guys on base.Of course we could use some help from guys who are supposed to drive in runs,Bay and Wright but as long as they’re among the league leaders in OB% they’ll always be among the leaders in LOB.Good offenses uaually are among the league leaders in OB% and
LOB.
Junk offensive statistics. Why don’t we look at RBI. How are we in the top 10 in walks and hits, but 13th in RBI? And nearly last in homeruns.
Our offense has no pop. That’s because of the park, but also denotes a poor 3-4-5 mix. A huge reason we’re #6 in hits is due to Jose Reyes. He is the guy who sets the tone and makes things happen. Lose him and the team will suffer irreparable damage.
The reason the Mets are top ten in hits and walks and 13th in RBI is BECAUSE they are nearly last in home runs. Runs scored are a product of OBP and SLG%. Age old formula. Get ‘em in, get ‘en in.
Too bad the mets are not doing such a good job of gettin ‘em ‘in.
Lucas Duda is because he’s hitting. The accolades doesn’t go to the guys who score – the accolades goes to the guy that gets the job done. If you can’t accept this by now after watching the Mets leave so many men on base, in fact leading the league in it, than you just refuse to accept it
The accolades don’t go to the guys who score? Ok. I’ll remember that next time someone waxes poetic about replacing Reyes’s runs scored. I’ll make sure to tell them Bayonne said so.
And you’re right about Duda. He’s a good hitter with power. The guys in front are getting on. So he’s getting RBI. 1+1=2 every single time.
when i mentioned accolades i was referring to the moment not the stat as a whole.
And as for the guys getting on before Duda or ANY hitter for that matter that’s their job, you learn you’re supposed to get on base when your first start playing little league at 7 years old. Now we are rewarding them for doing what they’re supposed to do much like announcers now give credit to guys who hustle – that’s what they’re supposed to do anyway.
The talent and the important aspect of the game is the ability to drive in runs and get hits in big spots. When you watch baseball highlights or famous baseball movies it’s about the guys who get the hits to drive in the runs. What you’re doing is shifting the importance and credit to the guy that scores the run and that’s flat out WRONG. They’re just doing what they’re supposed to do
It all makes sense now. You get you knowledge from watching highlights and movies. When you play the game as long as I have, you’ll realize it’s a team effort and driving in runs is not a talent. Being a good power hitter is, and the RBI is just a product of the situation, being up with guys on base. That’s something the batter has no control over.
Yeah I got my knowledge from watching movies and highlights, sure.
And when that runner is on base he has no control over whether he’s gonna score or not OR even moreso if it’s being a game-winning run than the batter is up at bat in a pressure situation. And we all know not all RBI situations are the same.
It’s a lot more than simply saying the RBI is a product of the situation and to take away the importance of that is criminal.
I guess I come from a winning perspective and you come from a stat perspective. Driving in those runs is going to win you the games, getting on base is only part of it. Last night David Wright came to bat with the bases loaded, 2 outs and Mets winning 6-5 and he struck out which is not unusual because David usually does not produce in pressure situations.
And if you’re gonna STILL sit there and simply say things like RBI’s is just a product of the situation and and driving in RBI’s is not a talent than you’re diminishing the IMPORTANCE of that situation and who’s hands it falls into at that time all for the sake of a stat.
That’s a losing mentality and a built in excuse for losing in my book
“And when that runner is on base he has no control over whether he’s gonna score or not” Right on. It’s a team game. Glad you finally caught up.
“Driving in those runs is going to win you the games, getting on base is only part of it.” Scoring runs is going to win you games. Driving them in is only part of it. See? We’re both right. It’s a team game.
Driving in runs has never been a talent. Getting hits is. Being a good power hitter is a talent. Being a good power hitter up at bat with men on base is not a talent. It’s a situation the batter found himself in. He needs his talent to drive them in. It has nothing to do with stats, it has to do with understanding the game. I think you’re starting to come around, though.
“The accolades doesn’t go to the guys who score – the accolades goes to the guy that gets the job done.”
Yes, we know. The masses are idiots. But, people with real baseball knowledge realize that RBIs are usually a team effort.
“Why don’t we look at RBI”
Because you can score runs without RBIs. Also, RBIs are awarded and are an after effect.
Wrong, you dumb POS. Talented hitters drive in runs. We don’t have talented hitters in the 3-4-5 slots. Other teams with more ribbies have better 3-4-5 hitters. That’s the bottom line. It’s the #1 reason we’re 13th in ribbies while in the Top 6 in OBP (rolling my eyes) and walks.
Take a close look @ the two POS middle of the order hitters who LACK THE TALENT to drive in runs- Jason Bay and David Wright.
“Wrong, you dumb POS.”
No, I’m factually right. You can in fact score a run with no one getting awarded the RBI. But, hey, keep playing internet tough guy. It’s buying you so much credibility.
“Talented hitters drive in runs”
Well, ya. I didn’t say otherwise. Good hitters get hits. If guys are on base in front of them, they will frequently be awarded RBIs. I never said otherwise. Please don’t construct a strawman to try and support your antiquated thinking.
“We don’t have talented hitters in the 3-4-5 slots.”
We have the 5th most runs in the National League. Have they been cold lately? Yes. But they are talented.
“Other teams with more ribbies have better 3-4-5 hitters. That’s the bottom line. It’s the #1 reason we’re 13th in ribbies while in the Top 6 in OBP (rolling my eyes) and walks. ”
Yes, the lack of power is a problem. That has been mentioned. Do keep up.
“Take a close look @ the two POS middle of the order hitters who LACK THE TALENT to drive in runs- Jason Bay and David Wright.”
David Wright averages 107 RBIs per 162 games. So…ya. No talent to drive in runs there. I wonder if it means anything that Wright’s RBIs are highest in seasons where he has a high slugging and the team has a high OBP.
Naaaaaaaa.
with no beltran and no delgado behind or in front of him he’s average 70 in past 3 years…
Yes, with his own missed time and a decrease in team OBP in 2009.
Do keep up.
so the new excuse for wright’s lack of production is that the team OBP was bad in 2009 and injuries. in 2010 him striking out like crazy was “he changed his swing, now he’s hitting for hr’s (even though only hit 29) and is howard johnson’s fault..
this year is his back and that noone is protecting him… i just gotta laugh at this…
Wright had 103 RBIs last year. Even with the messed up plate approach and lower than normal BA.
Don’t you know Donal he’s just a terrible player that’s why. Why he’s even allowed to step on the field strikes me.
Yeah, he’s the “Face of the Organization” don’t you DARE forget that.
I don’t know if you realize this but Carlos Beltran’s HR’s have declined quite a bit as well. From a high of 41 in 2006 to 33 in 2007, 27 in 2008, 10 (in half a season) in 2009, 7 (in less than half a season) in 2010 and 20 in a full season in 2011.
Injuries would certainly explain some of that, decline, rustiness and protection would are probably in there too and people who follow the game understand all that.
No one’s laughing about it when it comes to Beltran. Why would anyone be laughing about it when it comes to Wright?
Well there are some other things that changed too. Change of home field, missed a lot of games but I do think losing 2 good hitters in the lineup hurt him. Why wouldn’t it? It would hurt any hitter.
Wrong, you dumb POS”
Take a close look @ the two POS middle of the order hitters who LACK THE TALENT to drive in runs- Jason Bay and David Wright”
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMAR, THE CORE IS WITH YOU MAN, BUT calm down, we don’t want you banned or anything… lol
How do you explain the fact that we’re 3rd in the NL in hitting with RISP? 1.Cards 2.Phillies 3.Mets The talent is there 3-4-5.It’s a matter of them playing the way they’re capable. Even Wright who’s not a clutch hitter still has driven in 100+ runs in 5 out of 6 years entering this season.Ike went down and Bay forget how to hit but as a team they’re still #3 hitting in RBI situations.Bringing in the fences should only help Bay and Wright along with a healthy Davis hopefully and the offense should add power next year.
Omar I included Runs Scored which is basically RBI’s except for the fact that it including runs scored from errors.
And in 2010 the Mets were 13th in runs scored, this year they are 6th.
I got you, Clay. I was directing that to the Sabertoolsheds who don’t understand the game outside the nonsense of OBP and run scored.
Sorry, I wasn’t aware there was a more important offensive stat than runs scored. When exactly did the Mets win a game 6 RBI to 4?
Scoring runs and getting on base and is nonsense?That explains why your Idol is Omar Minaya.You’re both idiots but even Omar the choke maker understood the importance of Ob% and runs scored.At least he did until he brought in Francouer and Barajas.It’s pretty hard for our 3-4-5 hitters to drive in runs with no one on base.Hey but that would make sense now wouldn’t it.”You know what I’m sayin”. You don’t have to be a fan of sabermetrics to know the value of getting on base.All the good offenses are always among the leaders in that category.
You’re right, Clayton. RBI and runs scored are pretty much the same thing, just one is awarded to the batter and one to the runner.
Why are they 13th in RBI? Bay who was brought here to do just that doesn’t,Wright went down for 2 months,even though he rarely hits in the clutch,his RBI totals are usually good,Beltran was traded,Ike went down leaving the team with no power and a bunch of singles hitters.They are 3rd in the NL in BA with RISP behind only St Louis and Philly so it’s becuase they don’t hit for any power as to why they rank near the bottom in RBI but they’re 5th in runs scored.If they pitched like Philly or Atl then no one would give a flyin that they’re 13th in RBI or whatever the actual number is.Credit Jeff Wilpon and Omar for the parks dimensions.Omar said when questioned about it that he wanted a pitchers park and a team built around pitching and defense but he forgot to get the pitchers.
In 2009, the famous injury-riddled year the team OBP finished at .335, same as it is now. Was it sabermetrics then?
Oh and never mind that half the time last year all we talked about here was how the Mets needed a new hitting coach because the hitters were all starting to look like Howard Johnson and we needed more discipline at the plate. Was that saber too?
Or is it just baseball?
It’s just baseball, of course. You’ve never heard that saying before? First get them on base. Most important. Then get them in. More guys on base in front if good hitters with power equals more runs scored. RBI just follows along with the runs scored.
I’m from the “old school”. 1&2 are your get on and set the inning base guys, 3 is your best hitter, 4&5 and maybe 6 are your power guys. 7 & 8 are guys give you what they can, which usually meant catcher and a defensive player. Now we want them to contribute more also.
so, 1 and 2 only job is to get on base? what if there are men and 2nd and 3rd then? 1 and 2 are supposed to wait to get on base or are they supposed to come trough and drive the runners in? is not ony about getting on base, 1 and 2 are suppose to be players that can get on base, hit for extra bases, steals, have good discipline.. etc.. 3 is your best hitter then why is wright at the #3 spot? 4th 5th and 6th are your power guy? no, is not all about power, get ppl who drive in runs are usually in that spot.. i can live with someone hitting 25+ hr’s but with 110+ rbi’s (beltran 2008), and i pretty much agree with 7th and 8th.. which is where a guy like thole fits best because he can work counts and get on base here and there..
About #1 and #2, you know it’s entirely possible to get on base with a hit, therefore driving in those runs. I know you and your friends who don’t understand OBP think it’s only about walks, but hits count for a little something.
About the middle of the order guys, it is mostly about power. Good hitters with power batting behind guys who get on base get RBI. It’s not an inate talent.
But you were right about the last maybe 10% of your post.
“I know you and your friends who don’t understand OBP think it’s only about walks, but hits count for a little something.”
Correct but the goodness of that OBP must cross reference the HITTING to prove the trueness because a high OBP can be the product of walks without hitting.
As with any stat, the CAUSE of the indicator must be ensured to validate the stat before you can trust the story it tells!
We have a high OBP because we hit well, We are not hitting well merely because we have a high OBP!
And as wrong as it is for one side to assume a high OBP is all walks it is just as wrong to assume a high OBP means a good hitting and high run scoring team too!
You have weight the stat and define the CAUSE of it as a proof of what the stat actually tells you!
Look, hits are always better than walks. I’d much rather have a .400 OBP guy who’s hitting .300 and supplements with a lot of walks than a .250 hitter who walks that much more, so long as it’s the same .400 OBP
But under no circumstances would I trade in that .250/.400 guy for a .300/.350 guy. I want the guy who gets on base 40% of the time instead of 35%, regardless of how he does it. Maybe I can make an exception for a guy with a .600 SLG, but those guys are rare if you have that much power, you’re likely to have a much higher OBP than .350, anyway.
The what is more important than the how. Just get on base. If it’s a lot of hits and a few walks, fantastic. But if the hits and walks are more even, at least he’s keeping the line moving and giving the next guy a much better chance to do some damage.
I hate to see guys expand the zone and sacrifice their discipline for the stupid notion that he can only help his team by actually getting a hit (hit and run situations excluded). They wind up hurting the team far more often than they help.
Well how does that work out for you when .250/.400 guy comes up with runners on?
How often does the .250 hit into a DP that not only doesn’t score the run but erases the runner?
The guy who hits .300 will score the runner on 2nd, 1 time in 3
The guy who hits .250 will not because he doesn’t get hits as ofyen and the walk only puts the DP and force at 3rd into play!
Get the hitting and the ability to walk ON TOP doesn’t matter!
Getting on base does NOT score runs!
What you do after that is what scores them!
If you go in favor of the BA you will get the ACT that scores the runs, but going for the OBP does not get you the act that does it! And if he has a lesser BA you will score LESS runs not more!
You don’t win a game based on how many times you got on base but by how many times you scored!
And hitting scores runs AND gets on base…Walking just does half the job and hurts the ability to score the baserunners that were already on!
Now you’re inventing base-out scenarios to fit your point and using a loser mentality of not wanting a walk because of a potential DP, where winners want a chance with the bases loaded. Don’t do that. Bayonne and Alex do that. You’re better than them.
The guy with a .350 OBP makes an out 65% of the time. The guy with a .400 OBP makes out an out 60% of the time. It’s very simple. When there are run scoring opportunities, the guy who makes an out the fewest will come through more times than the guy who makes outs more often.
No I’m addressing your problem with CAUSALITY of what actually PRODUCES the run and your notion that getting on base means a run will score and favoring that instead of the HIT that actually scores it!
OBP is ONLY significant if it is largely built on HITS!
Because all the OB before the batter is dependent on HIS hitting!
Or some batter AFTER him HITTING!
With a runner on 2nd OB does not score the run a HIT does!
The HIT is OB+!
OB is just OB! To give it more weight than the HIT is counter to the goal SCORING RUNS!
The OB doesn’t CAUSE a damn thing!
Howard doesnt’t need guys on base to score a run!
But guys on base need Howard to get a hit to score them!
HITTING is an ACT of the Batter…
Walking is the failure of the pitcher and if you go for the quality the pitcher can usurp you have NO QUALITY!
Pound the zone on .250/.400 and that .400 can NEVER HAPPEN! It reequires the Pitcher to give it to him!
Pitcher can’t usurp the .300 unless he walks him!
Same OB but the pitcher didn’t have much of a say in it!
And if he throws him the strikes that .300 will suceed where .250 won’t!
A run scoring is the product of someone being on base when a hit is recorded. They are both responsible,the runner and the hitter. You can preach to you’re red in the face about how the top of the order guys need Howard to drive them in for a run to score and it doesn’t change the fact that Howard needed the guys on base to get his RBI. It’s a team game. I can’t understand why this is so hard to understand.
“A run scoring is the product of someone being on base when a hit is recorded.”
Whose on base when the solo HR is recorded?
The batter, once he touches first base. He has to touch all four bases in succession before the run/RBI is recorded. Hitting the ball over the wall means nothing but having an unabated path around the bases. It doesn’t guarantee anything.
“He has to touch all four bases in succession”
Oh so touching first base sent the ball over the wall not the hitting of the ball…
Again CAUSE!
Does walking through a door jam open the door too?
WHAT ALLOWS HIM to touch the base?
the Ball Four or the HIT!
Touching the base does NOTHING towards the score it is the act at the plate that CAUSED both the touched base and the number of bases he was able to score!
Bottom line there was NO ONE on base when he hit the HR!
So being on base is not important!
Something that happens AFTER the fact can not cause the run to score!
Great, let’s find a line up full of guys who all hit 100 HR a season. That should make up for there never being baserunners otherwise.
Once the batter touches first, he’s a runner. Once he touches home, the run/RBI is recorded. Base runner before scoring. Again.
But there was no one ON BASE until he HIT!
What allowed him to touch 1st base in the first place?
Did touching first CAUSE him to go further?
Or was it the hit that CAUSED him to touch first and all the other bases?
You didn’t answer my question I will point out…
Did walking through a door jam open the door?
Or did opening the door ALLOW you to go through the jam!
You are trying to put PAST acts as the cause of events that happened before them!
Without the hit there is NO BASE touched!
So the HIT is the cause!
And the cause did not need a guy on base to happen!
it’s the hit that allowed him to touch 1st 2nd, 3rd and home!
Without it he touches nothing therefore it is the HIT that is important not the bases he touched!
Your trying to make a RESULT a CAUSE!
Can’t happen in the laws of Physics!
Unless of course your moving backwards in time!
“find a line up full of guys who all hit 100 HR a season.”
It would win a lot more games than guys who walk a lot!
Because the HR hitter CAUSES the runs to score…
You can’t walk unless the Pitcher allows it!
If he doesn’t throw balls you can’t walk!
You can hit HRs no matter what he throws and if he doesn’t throw anything to hit over the fence you STILL get on base!
Walking is a FAILURE of the pitcher not an accomplishement of the batter!
If the Pitcher doesn’t throw 4 balls you can’t walk!
But children really should interrupt adults when they are discussing things.
INGNORE ON!
You’re arguing something no one said. Are you having fun? Of course the hit allowed him to touch first base. Hits make up OBP. The higher the OBP, the more chances you have to score runs. The hit (or walk) has to come first. Then you get baserunners. The he can matriculate around the bases with or without the help of teammates behind him. When he touches home, a run scores and usually (but not always) an RBI goes with it.
But it all started with him getting on base.
“It would win a lot more games than guys who walk a lot!
Because the HR hitter CAUSES the runs to score…
You can’t walk unless the Pitcher allows it!
If he doesn’t throw balls you can’t walk!”
Amazing that the point manages to go over such a pointed head.
“You can hit HRs no matter what he throws and if he doesn’t throw anything to hit over the fence you STILL get on base!”
Steve Balboni approves this message
“Walking is a FAILURE of the pitcher not an accomplishement of the batter!
If the Pitcher doesn’t throw 4 balls you can’t walk!”
And if he knows the batter will swing at everything, everything is a strike.
HOLD ON HERE! You Said….
“A run scoring is the product of someone being on base when a hit is recorded.”
Who was on base when the HIT was recorded by the HR?
Then said:
“Hitting the ball over the wall means nothing but having an unabated path around the bases. It doesn’t guarantee anything.”
Nothing but the RIGHT to touch all the bases and score the run!
Touching first didn’t guarantee it, touching second didn’t gurantee it neither did touching 3rd!
What guaranteed the TOUCHING was what happened BEFORE anyone was on base!
The HIT CAUSES the run to score not the touching of first! And not the runner on base that didn’t exist when the hit was recorded!
The HIT is recorded the second it goes over the fence! The HIT guarantees how many bases can be touched and therefrore CAUSES the run not the bases you touch AFTER the fact!
CAUSALITY!
The guy on base does not CAUSE the run to score because there was no one on base!
Touching first did not cause him to go to 2nd 3rd and home!
It was the HIT which was a HIT the second it went over the fence!
The HIT caused the run to score not the stuff that happened AFTER it!
You don’t understand the rules of baseball. I was given my first rule book at 4 years old and have purchased a new one each time it was revised/edited.
Hitting the ball over the wall guarantees nothing but an unabated path around the bases. Doesn’t guarantee a run/RBI or even a hit. The batter still has to touch the bases, and when he touches first, he becomes a baserunner. If he misses first, and it’s appealed, it’s not even counted as a hit, let alone a run or RBI. Once he becomes a baserunner, he needs to touch second. Then third. Then home. THEN AND ONLY THEN
…does a run score. Not because of the hit. Because the base runner touched all four bases in order. All the hit meant is that the defense cannot put him out.
Your attempt at making everyone as confused about the issue as you are really won’t help Xtreem out here so why not just be quiet and read what each of us say so that you might not be an idiot all of your life!
Should read “ball hit over the wall.”
Not because of the ball hit over the wall. Because the base runner touched all four bases in order. All the ball hit over the wall meant is that the defense cannot put him out.
You keep ta;lking about the rules of baseball but ignore the rules of PHYSICS!
Lets try this another way…
What is more important to your bank account?
What you deposit or how it gets recorded?
Without the HIT you can not touch a base!
So the hit is more important as it is what ALLOWS the base to be touched!
Without the HIT there is no base you can touch!
The fact of when someone WRITES IT DOWN does not cause the run to score it is the REASON and what CAUSED them to write at all that is important!
The rules of baseball also say that until he hits the ball someplace they can’t get him out he can’t touch a base at all!
The RULES of baseball is how it DEALS with recording results not what CAUSED them!
No you can’t score a run until you touch home and you can’t touch home AND SCORE till you touch the other bases but you can touch home 50 times while your standing there at the plate it does not record a run now does it?
So it isn’t the touching of the base that counts it is HOW you touch the base and HOW you touch the base is determined by the HIT not the touching of the base!
Why not skip the rulebook section on RECORDING runs and go right to the section regarding Home Runs!
What does it say you can do when you hit the ball over the fence?
Whats does it say you can do when you touch first?
Does it say you can go to second or does something ELSE have to happen before you get that right?
UNLESS of course you already did it by hitting the HR!
That’s entirely too confusing to comment on. Physics and bank accounts? I’m talking about baseball. You think baseball doesn’t adhere to rules of physics, then write a letter and get some rules changed.
It’s confusing because you are looking at the section in the rulebook for RECORDING and not the section that says what allows you to do the things that NEED recording!
What does the rulebook say about hitting a ball over a fence and stop looking at the what they say about recording what happens AFTER he has hit the ball over the fence!
Your basing results on how they are recorded not by what CAUSES them to be recorded!
Being on base does not cause the ball to go over the fence therefore touching first does not CAUSE the ball to go over the fence and does not ALLOW you to touch the remaining bases so the scotre can be recorded!
it is the act of hitting the ball over the fence that ALLOWS you to touch first and all the remaining bases and not what had to happen AFTER the ball was hit over the fence!
Your using temporal mechanics to try and change the cause from the hit that ALLOWED the bases to be touch to touching tha bases!
it is the HIT that allows any base to be touched not the touching of the base that causes the HIT!
And you seem to think that his touching first caused the ball to go over the fence or that hitting the ball over the fence is not as important as touching first!
But you can’t touch first without first hitting the ball someplace where they could not get you out!
ALL RUNS ARE SCORED based on something that happened in the batters box not based on who was on base or where they were.
A runner on 2nd can not CAUSE a batter to get an RBI! The Batter still has to do something!
“Because the base runner touched all four bases in order.”
Can you hit into a ground out and run and touch all four bases and record a run?
Can you just take off on a run around the bases and score a run?
Or do you have to do something before you can do that?
Can a runner at home simply run to first on a wild pitch even and run around all the bases and record a run?
Can he hit a foul ball and run around the bases and have it scored based on the rulebook?
NO he can’t can he!
He has to DO SOMETHING BEFORE he has the right to run to a base!
It is THAT ACT that scores the run not the actual running to the base!
Your rulebook quotes are discussing what happens AFTER a hit is made!
It does not apply until AFTER the HIT!
The HIT causes that section of the rulebook to apply!
Without the hit none of those rules about touching bases apply!
Because without the hit your not ALLOWED to run the bases!
“Because the base runner touched all four bases in order.”
Foul ball can the runner do that and score?
What allows him to touch all four bases?
Can he do it at ANYTIME he wants?
Or must he meets certain criteria before his touching of the bases actually is counted?
No, he needs to put the ball in play first. When he reaches first base safely, he can then advance at his own risk (unless the ball was hit out of the ballpark). But nothing can happen unless first base is touched, at which point the hit or walk is safely recorded and the OBP is added to. Then any number of things can happen after to case the run to score. But the act of increasing the OBP, whichever it may be, has to occur first in every single run scoring scenario.
I think you’re just creating false arguments and attributing them to me so I can look wrong. You keep bringing up physics and foul balls and ground outs and other things that don’t even bring a runner to first base, let alone around the bases.
AH HA!!!!!
SO putting the ball in play is the KEY!
When does that happen after he is on base or BEFORE?
So the HIT AKA putting the ball in PLAY causes everything that happens AFTER it and therefore is the CAUSE of the RUN because it not only determined he COULD run the bases but how many!
The HIT caused the run to score not the ON BASE!
I actually laughed out loud here.
“So the HIT AKA putting the ball in PLAY…”
Are you serious there? A six year old knows that merely putting the ball in play does not mean it’s a hit. You have to reach first base safely first. THEN it’s a hit.
“The HIT caused the run to score not the ON BASE!”
Dude, a hit IS getting on base. When a batter gets a hit,where does he go? The bathroom? No, he’s on a base. Whatever adds to OBP (hit,walk) will be the cause of runs scoring.
If everything you said didn’t prove my point further, I’d have logged off hours ago. What else you got? A hit can’t be recorded until the batter swings at a pitch? So swinging is now the cause of runs scoring?
AHHH I see your problem….
can you not HIT a ball and still make an out?
the HIT in this situation is the act of swinging a bat and connecting wioth the ball in a manner that gave the batter the right to run the bases!
you HIT the ball, WHERE and HOW you hit it determines how many bases you get!
Reaching first does not CAUSE you to HIT THE BALL over the fence!
Your confusing a RESULT called a HIT with HITTING!
The act of HITTING is about connecting bat to ball!
Getting it hit is based on how well you do that act and without that act there is no hit, no run no OB nothing!
The run scored based on how he HIT the ball!
He hit the ball over the fence allowing him to touch every base because HITTING THE BASEBALL set the conditions that allowed the results to be scored!
Without the act of the HITTING there is nothing after that!
So the HITTING is what determines what happens afyter that!
This is the point your missing!
Your confusing a result with an ACT!
I’m talking about the ACT!
An Act that does not require anyone on base to perform!
You can HIT a HR without a sole on base.
And the fact that you DID hit that HR is what caused all the other parameters to be allowed!
“the HIT in this situation is the act of swinging a bat and connecting wioth the ball in a manner that gave the batter the right to run the bases!”
Well, I’m done. I can’t keep up up with all the goal post moving. We all know what a hit is. That’s the first thing you learn. Now you’ve re-defined it to fit your situation. Terrific. When someone yells to get a hit, they don’t mean “make contact with the ball in fair territory so that you may run the bases and see how far you get.”
They mean get a hit. Reach base safely. Baseball 101. A hit’s been a hit for 150 years and you change the meaning because you don’t understand what on base percentage means to an offense. You can’t get that or you refuse to acknowledge it because it makes your whole argument wrong.
I’m done. I got dinner to make before I catch three innings of the Yankees/Rays before 8:15.
Your done because I pointed out the aquillies heel in your OBP philosophy!
It’s not being on base that CAUSES a damn thing it is what the guy at the plate does with the BAT and how he HITS the ball!
You know what a HIT STAT is but a HIT STAT is a result not an act!
A RESULT doesn’t cause a run to score a result is a result that CAN be scored under multiple stat categories.
None of it gets recorded at all without some act by the batter…The ACT is called HITTING!
How you do that influences all those STATS you get to record AFTER THE FACT!
So a Batter CAN cause a run to score regardless of if he gets a hit or not!
Sac Fly scores a runner on third but no HIT is recorded yet the runner can not SCORE until the batter put that ball into play!
It is the batter HITTING the ball to the outfield that CAUSES the run to score!
In a HR no one is one base to CAUSE anything!
It is the Batter HITTING the ball over the fence that allows all the other ACTS to occurr!
I didn’t move a single pole!
You mistook a RESULT as the ACT!
It’s a HIT (ACT) because the batter connected bat to ball!
Not because hetouched first safely!
HITTING is about BAT and BALL not BASE!
Base is only important AFTER the HITTING has been done!
And thats why your .250/.400 OBP guy doesn’t score as many runs as the .300/.350 guy does!
because the /300/.350 guy is BETTER at hitting the ball than the .250/.400 guy is!
HE CAN DO!
The .250 guy needs the Pitcher to get his numbers!
If you want a good example, look at Ryan Howard.
.250ish BA, but a ton of RBIs. Decent OBP but not great.
Is it because he has a nose for RBIs? Or because there are usually a ton of guys on base for him, and when he does hit, it is for power?
Bad example for what X is trying to say because it is his hitting that gets Howard the walks His OBP is not all that good!
His OBP is as much a product of their FEAR of his bat than anything to do with his patience at the plate and ability to get on base!
He is the player he is BECAUSE what he CAN DO with the bat is scarier than what he might do on base!
The BAT drives the OBP up!
But with a high OBP player who doesn’t hit?
You can pound the strikezone on him and play to the .250 not the .400!
No, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say. A good power hitter with a ton of guys on base will drive in more runs. It’s been that way for 150 years. And the more guys on base, the more RBI opportunities will be presented. So keep working to get on base. Even a weak singles hitter can drive in two runs if there are two guys in scoring position.
But how do you know he is a power hitter based on OBP?
You have to look at the HITTING!
RBI is more important no?
Howard doesn’t have a great OBP OR a good BA but his RBI is what tells the story!
And the guy who hits .300 is WAY more likely to score as many runs as Howard either by his act or by being the guy on base!
get GOOD HITTERS! Not ON BASERS!
Cause Howard isn’t an ON base guy he is the guy who clears them!
You would reject him for a guy who walks more! because your focused on the OB not the act that scores them!
How do you know he’s a power hitter based on BA? RBIs only tell you that the guy’s a power hitter and that’s he’s got a lot of opportunities. It doesn’t tell you how good he is at it. Remember OBI? I know you do. You love it.
“You would reject him for a guy who walks more! because your focused on the OB.”
Wrong. You make things up. OBP is not about walks. Figure that out and you’ll be set.
“How do you know he’s a power hitter based on BA?”
I don’t need to know he is a power hitter I know with a hit (ANY HIT) he will score a runner on base!
You can;t say that with a walk!
So, a Luis Castillo slapper along the 3B line will score any runner?
More than any walk will!
There was a better chance of Slappy getting an RBI with a bases loaded walk than with one of his little dribblers.
“There was a better chance of Slappy getting an RBI with a bases loaded walk than with one of his little dribblers.”
If it’s a hit the run can score!
If it’s a walk it can’t UNLESS the bases are loaded!
And the dribbler scores it just as well under those conditions!
So does a Sac Fly!
But what do children know about things I mean you used Castillo as an example which is a player who illustrates EXACTLY what I’m saying as he was a high OBP low BA guy who if you threw strikes at couldn’t produce!
“If it’s a hit the run can score!”
unless there is no one on base or it doesn’t go far enough.
“If it’s a walk it can’t UNLESS the bases are loaded!
And the dribbler scores it just as well under those conditions!”
Or become a force at the plate and a double play.
“So does a Sac Fly!”
Not unless there is a man on 3rd with less than 2 outs.
“But what do children know about things I mean you used Castillo as an example which is a player who illustrates EXACTLY what I’m saying as he was a high OBP low BA guy who if you threw strikes at couldn’t produce!”
.290 career BA.
DUH if there is no one on base a walk doesn’t score a run either now does it?
Are we going too fast for your limited brain capacity to keep up with situations?
Stay out of this because obviously you have no clue about what your saying currently or what was said previosuly it’s just puking words without logic or reason
Let me ask you something here….
Your the Pitcher…
You are on the mound when .250/.400 guy comes up!
You have to decide what to do with him.
How do you DEFEAT his .400 OBP?
Answer: POUND the STRIKEZONE and play to his .250, not give into his .400!
By going for the hitter you don’t give the Pitcher that choice!
If he pounds the zone he is playing to the STRENGTH and if he pitches around him he has just as much chance and opportunity to do what you thought you were going to get with .400 OBP guy!
Good Hitting can not be thwarted by the Pitcher!
Good OBP can!
Good OBP can’t be thwarted by good pitching. That’s backwards logic. They’re on base all the time. The object of the pitcher is to get the guy out and guys with good OBP don’t make out as much.
Not to mention that fact that good hitting can be thwarted by not giving the hitter a good pitch to hit. Then if he’s not disciplined and expands the zone and swings at bad pitches, he’ll just get himself out.
SURE IT CAN!
Can you walk if the pitcher does not throw 4 balls?
NO!
If you cant’t hit strikes can the pitcher deny you OB?
OF COURSE HE CAN!
OBP only works if the Pitcher gives you the walk.
OR you can drive the OBP yourself by HITTING for average!
If the pitcher doesn’t offer the walk no way that .250 batter maintains a .400 OBP
NO WAY IN HELL!!!!!!
“OBP only works if the Pitcher gives you the walk.”
I can’t help you if you insist that OBP is all about walks.
“OBP only works if the Pitcher gives you the walk.
OR you can drive the OBP yourself by HITTING for average!”
Then what do you do it the pitcher doesn’t give you anything to hit?
“Not to mention that fact that good hitting can be thwarted by not giving the hitter a good pitch to hit.”
AHHH but there is the rub isn’t it?
When you THWART the good hitter you still get the OB…
When you thwart the OB you usually get the OUT based on his bad hitting!
This is the point you forget!
Thwarting hitting still leaves a good result, Thwarting walking leads to better chance for a BAD result ie and OUT!
“When you THWART the good hitter you still get the OB…” SO every players has a 1.000 OBP? If they don’t get a hit, they always walk? What’s your obsession with walks?. If the batter isn’t given a pitch to hit and and isn’t disciplined and expands the zone, he’ll get himself out. That’s why Hudgens (and presumably every hitting coach) preaches patience and plate discipline. The Mets are a good enough hitting team to actually practice what’s being preached.
“When you thwart the OB you usually get the OUT based on his bad hitting!” Wrong, you always get the out. If that batter doesn’t get on base, it’s a safe bet he’s made an out. And I want the guys who make the fewest outs.
“Thwarting walking leads to better chance for a BAD result ie and OUT!” Such loser mentality, and backwards,too. Thwarting walking (by throwing strikes, I assume) leads to a better chance of the batter putting a good swing on a pitch and increases his chances of getting a hit. That’s why players work on being disciplined. So they can put good swings on hittable pitches, not so they can increase their chances of making an out.
“…help you if you insist that OBP is all about walks”
The .250/.400 guy IS all about the walks because it sure isn’t his hitting!
“SO every players has a 1.000 OBP?”
What the hell are you babbling about is Donal writing your posts for you todfay dude?
If the pitcher tries to THWART a good hitter by pitching around him then the result is the Batter CAN walk! An OB! EVERY TIME if the batter wants to!
If the Pitcher tries to Thwart the WALKER by throwing strikes can the WALKER get on base EVERY TIME he wants to or does he only get OB 1.25 of every 5 PA?
While Thwarting the HITTER the HITTER has a chance to walk without any effort on his part.
When you thwart the walker by throwing strikes he HAS to be able to hit it which his BA says he can’t do well!
What if that .250 also comes with a .200 BABIP? ie: he’s hitting the ball, just getting bad luck
Besides, there’s a reason that guy built up a .400 OBP to begin with. He works a count.
Forget about BABIP. His head will explode. Help me make them understand OBP is not only about walks. Baby steps.
There is no LUCK but what you MAKE!
I had a fortune cookie with my lunch, Confucius. I don’t need more silly cliches passed off as wisdom.
Mine said The wise don’t try to TEACH the stupid just accept tham as such!
If it’s all about LUCK then no use looking at stats, just step in horseshit!
“Mine said The wise don’t try to TEACH the stupid just accept tham as such!”
I wasn’t trying to teach you, just correcting you for the others reading.
“If it’s all about LUCK then no use looking at stats, just step in horseshit!”
What?
No just playing your usual role as te idiot!
In 2009 the MLB average OBP was 0.333. In 2011 the MLB average OBP is .321. That’s a significant difference in the run scoring environment. This is why this year’s offense is better than 2009′s.
Good post.
I think this year’s offense being better than 2009′s has more to do with guys like Beltran, Reyes, Murphy being around more rather than what the rest of the league is doing.
Not really. Just take a look at the team stats:
2009
OBP/SLG/wOBA: .335/.394/.321
2011
OBP/SLG/wOBA: .336/.391/.321
They are virtually identical. The main reason the offense looks better this year is because offense in general is down, just like the same batting line in 1968 is better than in 1998.
sigh………… anyways, good article clayton, good news, it seems our GM will change the dimensions of citi field, i guess he’s preparing to life w/o reyes.. need more HR’s to produce more runs.. either way, is good, there has been at least 200 hr’s at citi that had died out at the warning track..
Well you have to REALLY stretch to say Sabers had anything to do with it!
First off Sabers are only used for aquisitions and Sandy has not really aquired any of the guys who have put up those numbers!
What IS significant is the new Hitting coach.
The numbers exhibited have to do with the hitting and the BA of those guys who are getting walked!
They are sabermetrically GOOD because they hit well, they don’t really hit well because they are sabermetrically good!
The success is due to the Hitting coach (who is not OBP obsessed at all!)
The Sabers follows the hitting as it always does!
You hit well the sabers look good, you don’t and your a sabermetric failure!
It’s the focus that is driving the stats!
really pretty simple.
As you learn (or should0 in little league, don’t swing at crap. And if you don’t get a pitch to hit, talk the walk and keep the line moving. basically, just don’t get yourself out.
that ain’t saber. it’s common sense.
“The success is due to the Hitting coach (who is not OBP obsessed at all!)”
Players and instructors should not be concerned with stats. However, Hudgens does preach working counts and plate discipline.
there is only one problem with this article…that is that the prople producing for geniusalderson are OMARS guys.give all the creddddddddddddit you want to the proper guy, OMAR.