13
2011
Are Clutch Performances And Players A Myth?
An article by 
A recent exchange on Twitter between me and a couple of other Mets bloggers, reminds me of why there is such a great divide between the sabermetric crowd and for lack of a better term, the traditionalists, or the old-school crowd if you will.
In my opinion, the cause for the divide isn’t really the stats one employs to evaluate the performance value of any one player, but it’s more borne out of some stark philosophical differences. Let me briefly discuss one of those differences.
Is there such a thing as a clutch player or a clutch performance?
To many baseball fans, Mike Piazza’s post-9/11 homerun was no less clutch than a home run he hit in a 9-2 loss to the Braves. They say there was nothing clutch about the home run at all, and it was all incidental and not something that was driven by the heat of moment or a pure adrenaline rush, as Mike Piazza himself seems to believe. Apparently, because human emotions are not statistically evident or measurable, it’s believed by many that there should be no accounting for them.
On the subject of a player being clutch, the noted statistician Bill James, once said in a 2005 book and interview,
Random data proves nothing—and it cannot be used as a proof of nothingness.
In other words, if you can’t prove it’s existence, than it doesn’t exist. Where have I heard that before?
Oakland GM Billy Beane, is one of the most well known saberists (is that a word?) this side of Mars. His ability to build and maintain winning records based on selecting players with high on-base percentages is the stuff of legends here at Mets Merized Online.
But maybe a few cutch hits, and those four consecutive ALDS losses between 2000-2003, might have resulted in at least one pennant or perhaps two, or quite possibly even a World Series trophy – something Beane’s teams have never won with him at the helm. At least that’s what I think.
Incidentally, did you know the Mets are mere percentage points away from being the top team in the National League in on-base percentage? It’s true… I wouldn’t lie to a couple of tough guys like you.
The Mets are second with a .335 OBP – three-thousandths of a percentage point behind the St. Louis Cardinals. Oh and of the top four teams in OBP, none of them are post season bound, and three of the four teams have records below .500. Anyway, back to my point.
Why does the mere mention of the words “clutch hitting” infuriate so many baseball fans everywhere, especially the saberists?
Maybe our readers here at MMO can give me an explanation and shed some light as to why so many believe there is no such thing as a clutch player or a clutch performance?
Obviously, I’m biased because my father and uncle who would take me to games as a kid, spoke a lot about clutch players and clutch performances all the time. They spoke quite often of Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra (yes, my uncle was a die-hard Yankee fan) or Tug McGraw and Tommie Agee. Their views of the game and their great baseball stories, had a lot to do with molding the way I watch and perceive games today.
I don’t understand how some would say that Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter are equally as clutch or un-clutch as David Wright and Jason Bay?
Is that really how it is?
There’s a hot debate going on right now on MMO over whether or not David Wright is clutch. I’m not going to weigh in on that landmine for now – although some of you already know my thoughts on that – I merely point it out because you can see the great divide on the topic of being clutch and how heated it can get.
So here’s the question or questions…
Does the heat of the moment have ANY effect on a players performance at any given time?
Does pressure cause SOME PLAYERS to ratchet up their performance and rise to the occasion, while OTHER PLAYERS simply wilt and wither away?
Is there such a thing as being clutch?
What are your thoughts?
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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is david wright clutch? no..
back in 2008 there was a debate just like this about how david wright was clutch, while he was hitting 243 with RISP that year, many had their finger point out as it was a bad year for him, that his career avg was over .300 with RISP, while i agree i couldn’t help but notice he was been given a free pass for his NO SHOW in the playoffs of 2006 because everyone was gung ho on beltran’s strike out to end the series. fast forward towards the end of 2008 while beltran and delgado were raking, wright was lost in the shuffle, and even though i kept watching him not do anything i saw his numbers were considerably pretty good, then came the most famous strikeout in regular season by a met, against the cubs (same thing who sunday rather pitched to HIM to LUCAS DUDA), he struck out HORRENDOUSLY on a pitch 6 feet off the plate, and, yes i was frustrated, but it wasn’t until i heard his excuse (i believe he’s a excuse maker) of why he struck out, when he said: “he made a GREAT 3-2 pitch”.. i was stunned to hear our beloved franchiZe player didn’t man up for failing miserably, but instead took the easy way out and looked for an excuse, that’s when my whole “david wright is unclutch” campaign started, and of course, his legion of fans weren’t having it, i was banned from mets blog and ridicule by many of the golden boy fans because they thought i was a hater or some sort, and to think, i like david wright like crazy, but his failures, excuses and the legion of fans that never wanted to admit he’s human and is allowed to fail just like al of us makes me think and view this man differently. and, ever since, he’s proved time and TIME again, that when the pressure is on, the last man you want at the plate with the game on the line is david wright.
Wow – you’re the first to come make up crap about Wright….do you know what your golden boy was hitting with RISP in 08? Any idea?
Reyes is having a great year and ALL is forgotten about what he hasn’t done.
We get it – you hate the good guy, keep fishing…..you are a disgrace to the rest of the fan base.
That RISP stat doesn’t mean anything because first of all you’re not giving his RISP in September of 08 and that’s when he left the MOST runners on in the most important ABs. I remember it perfectly because he had like 120 or so RBIs going into September of that year and some of us commented how he could have had 140 or so but he left SO many runners on in crucial situations in September. Sure he could have had good games and gotten hits with runners on but he left a LOT of runners on in important spots during the game and that’s all that matters – getting the hits WHEN you need them.
And of course Daniel Murphy is still standing on 3B.
David Wright used to get exciting hits when he first came up and I remember during the 2006 playoffs he tanked and I remember giving him a pass because it was his first time. Since then he’s gotten progressively worst in big spots during the game. And now he simply has become a guy who folds almost ALL the time in big spots offensively AND defensively. Mets should dump this guy for young pitching while they still can and use any money they save to re-sign Reyes.
And especially lately Wright has been killing this team on the field and on Sept. 11 he had what I call the “Anti-Piazza” game. Whereas Piazza rose to the occasion 10 years ago, all the droids who worship David’s golden smile had the opportunity to see him deliver a big hit to win the game 3 TIMES. THREE TIMES! And all 3 times he failed when the opportunity was given to him. And to make matters worse the Cubs walked a rookie (Duda) to pitch to Wright and I don’t care what righty/lefty scenario you can create or what Quade said the fact was….The Cubs walked Duda to get to Wright.
The time is ripe to move Wright for some young starting pitching (prospect or major league ready) to add to the starting pitching we have in the minors now. Get greedy and get as much pitching as we can and Wright’s the guy to use to acquire it.
I should add the RISP stat is nice to know but what really matters is WHEN you’re driving in these runs not just one blanket stat.
Wright hit 248 with RISP in 2008 but he led the Majors in at bats with RISP and that’s why he had a career high with 124 RBI’s.2007 was his best overall season.Even had a good September, until late in games as we were giving away that 7 game lead.His Boxscore looks good going 2-5 but 2 singles with the bases empty or a 2 run double up 5-2 compared to a strikeout down 9-8 with runners on 2nd and 3rd in the 9th inning make thoose 2-5′s less impressive..
“of course Daniel Murphy is still standing on 3B. ” WOW you are still bringing that up. Can you name me ONE player that drives in every run every single time. I mean 100% of the time?
Comparing him to Piazza is wrong on so many levels and YOU know it. Piazza is walking into the Hall, NO ONE, has ever claimed that for Wright, yet you and some of your friends hold him in the same standard.
You have selective memory and it only revolves around anything Wright didn’t do. You are also a sad excuse for a fan.
We got some slow learners here.
July 2008
2B HR RBI RS
Beltran .248/.333/.386 3 3 18 15
Delgado .357/.445/.714 8 9 24 20
Reyes .336/.403/.560 9 3 15 18 + 4 triples
Wright .317/.431/.574 9 5 19 26
For July of 2008 I’d rank the big four Delgado – Reyes – Wright – Beltran
August 2008
Beltran .303/.365/.541 8 6 21 21
Delgado .248/.344/.495 5 7 24 16
Reyes .317/.363/.452 4 1 7 20 + 5 triples
Wright .310/.370/.575 9 7 20 22
September 2008
Beltran .344/.440/.645 8 6 19 22
Delgado .340/.400/.649 6 8 22 21
Reyes .243/.314/.402 4 3 12 15 + 2 triples
Wright .340/.416/.577 9 7 20 22
How exactly were Delgado and Beltran “raking” and Wright was “lost in the shuffle”
when combined there numbers are almost all identical?
If anything it was Reyes that fell off. Delgado, Beltran and Wright posted tremendous numbers the entire 2nd half.
I get that you hate Wright. No problem there, we can’t all like every player on the team I guess but really do you expect any of us to believe that all Beltran and Delgado’s hits and RBI were all clutch and all of Wright’s were just stat padding?
Really if anything Delgado should have had a lot more than 70 RBI in July Aug and Sept because he had Reyes, Beltran and Wright were OB in front of him as much as any hitter could ever hope for. Look at their OB% All three of them every single month except for Reyes in September gave Delgado WAY more chances than he would normally get.
Wright had Schneider hitting 8th followed by the pitcher, followed by Reyes, followed by Church or Murphy and Wright had only 10 less RBI over the last 3 months and Wright was lost in the shuffle?
What a laugh. What a riot. What a flat out lie.
The story of 2008 starts and ends with the bullpen. Now they were clutch. In a sport where the average closer blows 15% of his chances the Mets were 43 saves and 31 blown saves. What’s that about 40% blown saves?
When your bullpen blows 40% of their save opportunities there are no “meaningless at bats because even if your up 3 who knows what’s going to happen in the next half inning.
As far as performance in September of 2008, other than the bullpen no one tanked more than Reyes and Wright was every bit as productive as Beltran and Delgado.
13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss.
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
Tell us how many of those 13 September RBI in losses would have been wins had the bullpen not blown the game AFTER Wright delivered and as far as the last series of the year against the Marlins in all 3 games the Mets only had a total of 21 base hits and walks combined. Five of them were by Wright and one was the HR by Beltran right in front of him so exactly who was he supposed to drive in?
In fact of Wrights 12 AB’s in the last series in 2008 he had 3 runners OB, all of them on first, two of them he advanced to 2nd with singles and one he lined out to CF. In his other 9 AB’s he came up with no one OB so basically your complaining that he didn’t hit a HR in one of those 9 AB’s or triple or HR in one of the three in which there was a runner on (two of which he got singles)
Why aren’t you complaining about Reyes in the last series? He got a hit or walk 4 times in 12 AB’s, Wright had a hit or walk 5 out of 11 plus he hat a HBP so in other words Wright was OB 6 out of 12 PA’s in that last series.
Delgado had one RBI, a SAC fly and he only got on 4/11 and Beltran was 4/12 (obviously with the memorable and extremely clutch Sunday HR, but still) He only had 2 RBI, all on the HR. Why is it all Wright’s fault? How about Schowenweiss? He was clutch?
But again as you said “Wright drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games against FLA. So that’s that.”
He only had 3 base runners in his 12 PA and all of them were on 1B and twice he got singles. Sure it would have been great if he hit a double or HR but really I think it’s just pure hatred of the guy for reasons that have nothing to do with his on field play on your part to jump on him every chance you get.
A hit, walk or HBP in 6/12 PA’s. All I can say is it’s a shame that Reyes Beltran or Delgado couldn’t have gotten OB a couple extra times, maybe we could have gotten something going.
OH SHUT UP,
tagee as usual always rationalizing and making excuses. Winners NEVER look for excuses.
The Loser’s Lament
I predicted you wouldn’t respond with anything intelligent because you can’t.
In the last three games of the 2008 season Wright had 3 base runners, all on 1st base in his AB’s and twice he singled.
Wright had 4 hits, a walk and a HBP in 12 PA so HE was getting on for other guys, too bad the guys in front of him couldn’t get on for him.
You complain that the guy didn’t drive in any runs but not once was there a runner in scoring position in any of his AB’s and in two of those three games all three of Reyes, Beltran and Delgado hit in front of him.
Shame none of them could have gotten OB a couple more times.
Can he go deep once? The excuses you make for Wright are awful. Can he hit some extra basehits? Total hand washing here. The man did NOT perform. He had opportunities but couldn’t make it happen.
Where are the long balls? Where are the shots down the line? Where are the shots in the gap?
Come on, man……
How many extra base hits did Delgado have in the last series?
ZERO.
No one here is saying that everyone couldn’t have done a little more but to put it on just one guy………
Maybe there’s some other reason for this Wright hatred.
I personally blame 2006 and 2008 on Wright. There’s no lying in me. I personally don’t trust Wright. I think he’s a scam. If you’re going to call Wright the team’s best player from 2005-2008, you better carry the torch. Well, from where I sit, Wright SAT on the torch. Delgado and Beltran were stars BEFORE Wright. Wright has proven he isn’t a star without them. To me, Reyes has improved, because he doesn’t need anyone to put up numbers. Where are Wright’s numbers since the departure of the true “stars” of this team?
Reyes has improved? He had good numbers in his abridged season this year,
Talk about excuses and scams…..
WOW
still whining! Just like the way you post here everyday with 1500 names and all kinds of excuses and second guessing.
go back to your Braves Blog and hug your Jason Heyward doll
You were just schooled so you tell the guy to SHUT UP?
The numbers are there. Amazing Baseball-reference doesn’t list LOB in their game logs. You have to go to the actual boxscore and click there. Baseball-reference has some IDIOTIC numbers not even worth the time to read into them. They have NOTHING to do with the real time game.
Anyway, Wright’s numbers look weak in 2008. I looked into 2007 as well and during the last weekend series, Mr. Wright only went off in the blowout game where he went 4-4. Nice stat inflating game.
Right. The boxscore has nothing to do with the game. Very, very perceptive of you.
.302/390/.534 42 doubles 33 HR’s 124 RBI 115 RS look weak to you?
You look weak to me.
LOL
And all those pretty stats mask a player who is INCAPABLE of being “The Man”. A mythical title he has undeservedly held in the eyes of foolish stat loving fans who appreciate Wright for non-baseball reasons.
If only he could win 1 game for the team in 2007 and 2008 with his bat. Alas, his legacy might have already been written. Something for you to think about…….
I know absolutely no one who loves Wright for anything having to do with anything off the field.
Most of the people I know were so sick and tired of hearing from Wright after every loss in 2007 and 2008 and were begging to hear from Beltran, Delgado, Reyes, Anyone but him.
If your problem with him is about off the field stuff that’s cool but knock that, don’t knock what he has done on the field. He has contributed or would you prefer we had stuck with Ty Wiggenton or traded him for Jose Cruz Jr.?
It’s completely ridiculous to compare him, especially in his first few years in the Majors to one of the greatest CFers of all time on so many numerous counts it’s absurd to even comment.
It’s also absurd to compare him to Delgado back in 2006-2008.
Those guys were brought into lead. Wright and Reyes were already here and were expected to grow as much as possible and THEN fill those shoes, IF they were capable.
To endlessly complain about what Wright isn’t is to miss the obvious. He’s an imperfect ballplayer who is an overall net plus on your team but to get the most out of him you simply must have dominant offensive players in the lineup preferably at least two who swing a heavy club from the left side. That’s what he’s grown up to be. Accept it.
If people love him for whatever reason who cares.
I was a huge Tito Trinidad fan, most of my friends who like boxing preferred De La Hoya back in those days. That didn’t prevent me from appreciating De La Hoya, I just liked Tito more. I know who won the fight but I also know who should have gotten the decision. I can tell the truth. Oscar should have won. I’m glad Trinidad got the win because of the way Oscar ran out the clock the last three rounds but still I can appreciate them both, still have my favorite and so can everyone else. What’s the big deal?
“REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.”
Enough said……….you are proven wrong, clearly, but you know what you saw, so the rest of us should back down because you know what you saw by a guy you clearly hate…..
OK……..
I and thousands of Met fans saw Wright fold like laundry out of the dryer. The boxscores DON’T lie. The only ones lying are his meaningless defenders.
Met fans know he’s a fraud.
The team’s owner believe he isn’t a star.
The media gives him a free pass.
They’re the only ones who have not come around to proving he’s not a special player.
Oh. Now the box scores don’t lie. Really which way is it with it you. Yesterday they were irrelevant today they don’t lie, what will it be tomorrow?
And since when is it the media’s job to disprove someone from being a “special” player?
People are just WAY too concerned with what other people think about things. Who cares. Someone loves Wright isn’t taking anything off your dinner plate. You can have your favorite and so can everyone else.
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
You know, the types of games tagee doesn’t consider when he goes through his parade of 100 names whenever he starts blaming Omar and other Mets GS for Mets losses when the Mets have had their chances ON THE FIELD.
So MOST of Carlos Beltrans September RBIs came when WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST.
So all you people can take your general blanket RISP stat and shove it where the sun don’t shine. And I say that with a smile.
So what happened in the games we lost? Beltran did nothing? Maybe that was the problem.
you’re just a real jerk man
keep on making yourself look like a fool
Your the fool buffoon and everyone here knows it.
You complain that Wright didn’t drive in a single run in the last series of 2008 but he never even had one single base runner in scoring position. Not even one. And when he did come up with runners on twice he got hits.
Delgado didn’t do **** that whole series and either did Reyes. Beltran only had one big hit and Delgado and Reyes none.
Beltran’s a HOF candidate and had one big hit the whole series and it’s all Wright’s fault.
Schowenweiss blew another couple of games and we had Nick Evans and Daniel Murphy playing LF and would have won in a cake walk if we had any kind of a bullpen at all.
THIRTY ONE BLOWN SAVES IN SEVENTY FOUR CHANCES AND IT’S ALL THE THIRD BASEMEN’S FAULT.
You guys are a complete joke and your hatred of Wright has more to do with you than anything he has or hasn’t done on the field.
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
So Beltran and Delgado did their part to keep the Mets afloat during the September 2008 collapse. If only one more hitter did his part the Mets would be in the post season.
Again, no matter how many saves were blown the Mets STILL had their chances to win.
Murphy is still standing on 3B
Good research, you made your point. Wright also hits a lot of solo shots.
Keep talking about one AB your no different than the idiots that talk about Beltran’s AB.
Having played a lot of baseball you should know this.
Fan Baiting? Really, Joe?
you don’t like it, don’t comment on it!! i am sure there’s other blogs you can be part of with your thoughtfull comments. idiot
Fine example of the Socratic method there, alex.
No, not at all Donal. I started writing this post soon after after a few guys from Amazin Avenue and one from another blog called JBMets made light of me calling Justin Turner clutch a couple of days ago. I just dont understand why the use of the word has become so scrutinized when it’s been used in baseball for over a century. One thing led to another, tweets and comments were shared, jokes were made, etc. and I then felt compelled to bring the debate here where I can bring my readers into it for their thoughts.
Over a century? Really?
Besides, it doesn’t matter how long the word has been used. Just because you do something dumb for a long time doesn’t mean you need to keep doing it.
And I still don’t see what Beane and OBP have to do with the situation. That was baiting.
“Clutch” is scrutinized because people base players’ values on it. You’ve got a whole contingent here who try and tell us “Wright sucks” because he “isn’t clutch”.
So, let’s see just what clutch is and how it applies.
And I still don’t see what Beane and OBP have to do with the situation. That was baiting.”
you mean baiting us into believing sandy is trying to use the same methods of moneyball and sabermetrics into the mets??? noo.. we have a GM knwoingly around baseball as a saberhead and a small market GM but by no means he’ll be that here in NY..
Shhh, grown ups talking
Saberhead and small market GM……..
didn’t see that one coming….
Would you be able to use commas correctly if this article were being written with a Pulitzer on the line? Or do you just not know how to use commas normally, and the number of times that you manage to use one correctly is simply random and has nothing to do with the “moment”?
alert, alert, alert… grammar police is here.. DB..
Clutch isn’t just a baseball thing, and that’s why you can tell that it certainly exists. Clutch is how you deal with pressure situations in ANYTHING. Being able to complete an important test in school calmly and well is clutch. Doctors working in ER (all doctors really, but in ER in particular) are clutch.
To say clutch doesn’t exist is insane. Some players do have a clutch gene, because lots of people do; it’s just how you respond to intense pressure. Players who react the same to intense pressure as they would the 2nd inning of a scoreless game in July have the clutch gene, but only to an extent (it allows them to deal with the pressure). Players who seem to get a boost from intense pressure have the clutch gene working strong for them. Players who get visibly nervous (not that that happens) or struggled consistently in intense pressure situations don’t have it.
Exactly Drew,
Clutch is a term that can be applied to anything you do in life. It’s very human that some people get very nervous or think too much, or there mind wanders when they are put on a very high anxiety situation and it affects their performance.
You can apply that to almost ANYTHING.
Some people just love the pressure while others pee on his pants like somebody we’ve talked about.
Some people just love the pressure while others pee on his pants like somebody we’ve talked about”
LMAO!!!!!!!
This is very simple to answer. I remember playing a basketball game in front of 8,000 people as a teenager in Coney Island. I was absolutely shaken by the whole scene. It took me half the game before I could settle in. The human element is not entered into statistics. There are certain players who tense up when the game is on the line. They think too much, they get nervous, or they doubt themselves. Guaranteed 99.9% of these sabertoolsheds have never been in that position before. They don’t know if they have a propensity to choke under pressure. To argue against clutch hitting is ignore human emotion. Funny Billy Beane as a former player (failed) doesn’t view it as a player would. That’s why I think the whole saber thing is BS. Beane knows the feeling. If he’s a choke or not, he would know.
Clutch hitting does exist. There are players who shy away from the big moment. There are players to rise up to the moment and take the challenge. I remember teammates who wanted nothing to do with the ball or bat in their hands with the game on the line. It’s a personality trait.
Wright can’t handle the pressure. He tries to do too much and winds up looking selfish and incompetent for the most part with the game on the line. That’s where you seperate the MEN from the boys. Derek Jeter for example. That’s a MAN when the game is about to be decided. The man is a straight up assassin. Has anyone ever called Wright as “assassin” late in the game? Never in a million years……
I think it’s all about being comfortable at the moment. Embracing it. Wanting it. Knowing your going to do it. Confidence, but people can be clutch at one thing and not something else. It comes down to your comfort or confidence level and in baseball a lot of it comes down to being ready to swing at the first pitch in a game changing moment because your looking for the right pitch, expecting to get it and know what your going to do with it when you get it cause your expecting to do something good with it.
No different with fielding. I always want the ball hit to the guys who want it hit to them. Why? Cause their comfortable, confident and expecting it. There not hopeing they make the play. Sometimes you can just see guys (not in the Majors) with sirens going off when the ball comes their way and you just know that’s the guy to take the extra base on.
It’s all about wanting the opportunity.
have you ever been in that position or are you just theorizing?
Have you ever actually experienced being up at bat with the game on your shoulders and all the people and your team mates watching you as you try to focus on the pitcher while at the same time KNOWING this is the game?
I’ve been in that position thousands of times, not that that has any relevance to Major League baseball or the Mets.
I’m over 50 years old and I never stopped playing baseball. I did miss this this year because of a tendon I tore in my wrist that needs surgery but I’ll be back next year and I did play softball this year anyway.
When I was about 10 I was on deck 2nd and 3rd, down a run in the last inning thinking to myself, I’m probably not getting a chance to hit here. Guy in front of me gets a hit we probably score two and win or he gets out and we lose. Maybe if the runner gets held up at 3rd I’ll get a chance but it’s not probable.
Next thing I know the guy in front of me is being walked (in little league!) I couldn’t believe it, I was so excited to get the chance and I knew I was hit it hard somewhere and did. Got ‘em both in, Big mob scene and after the game some of my teammates were saying things like I’m glad I wasn’t up in that situation and I was thinking to myself Man I was so happy to be up in that situation. Even the kid who walked told me he was glad he was walked. I couldn’t believe it. I don’t know who was happier him or me.
Ever since then I come with runners on I know I’m plating them. For over forty years now. Even my friends wives tell me they are surprised when I don’t get a hit in those situations. I can always hear one of my teammates yelling to everyone to start packing their bags cause the game is over when I’m walking to the plate.
I’m not trying to brag I’m just responding to your question. I’m a good hitter, so I will come through in those situations more than a mediocre hitter will. I also can let the pitch get real deep and drive it down the RF line often with a tail on it curving away from the RFer which allows guys to score from 1st pretty often. I have a short line drive swing and never having had HR power I always just try to hit it hard and if not a line drive then a GB, never a pop up and I know which pitches I can’t do anything with so I just take them but I’m always waiting and expecting to get my pitch right from the beginning of my AB especially with men in scoring position and I usually get it and I’m always ready for it.
I never played at a high level but I always played, never stopped. Missed a few seasons with a couple of shoulder surgeries, tore a calf, ankle surgery, broken ribs but just kept on playing. I have played with and against some guys who went pretty far and I’ve even faced a couple of former Major League pitchers who probably were just dicking around and as a kid I played in thousands of tournaments and even spent a entire summer playing ball in PR and I learned through the years what I can do and what I can’t so when I get that opportunity I’m looking forward to it.
I compete at lots of other things where I’m not clutch though. I cannot beat one of my friends at golf no matter how many strokes I get. He always comes through with a great shot to nail the last hole. Darts too. I want the opportunity but sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever get the double out to win the money. A couple of friends of mine have made historic comebacks on me in darts. Snooker, pool and raquetball 50/50 sometimes I win, sometimes I lose when I could have closed it out. Those other things though I play here and there. Baseball I never stopped playing. I hit and field all winter long indoors so when the chance is there I’m prepared.
So yeah, I’ve been in that position. Thousands of times. Have you? and if so, how long has it been?
Clutch is certainly one rockin’ band.
Back of a jacked up Ford.
Aww Yeah. Love me some Elephant Riders.
I’m a Blast Tyrant fella myself, but you can’t go wrong with any of them.
Bill James has changed his tune, and now says that clutch hitting probably does exist and we just haven’t come up with a good way to measure it. Saying it doesn’t exist would be like saying atoms don’t exist (prior to when we could actually see them): we just haven’t found the right tools to measure it. (James also has shown that there is such a thing as clutch pitching, though his definition of it is nothing like what anyone else would call clutch pitching).
It is psychology — some players love the limelight; others are uncomfortable. In a game like baseball, which requires split-second timing, a slight bit of hesitation can make all the difference.
Regarding clutch play, I do think it certainly exists. To put it into terms of another sport, look at Reggie Miller. That guy never put up jaw dropping stats during the regular season, but come playoff time, grab the kids and head for the hills. He would drop bombs from all over at will. So yes, sometimes the situation allows for an individual to crumble due to the pressure or focus better and rise to the occasion.
Is David Wright clutch? Is there another option other than yes or no? Can he be choice C, sometimes? He’s had his moments, both for glory and for shame, so I can’t see how he can be painted as an all or nothing type guy with this. If being “sometimes” clutch equals Not clutch (IE, if you aren’t in 100%, you aren’t in at all), then I’ll have to lean towards Not clutch.
And speaking of clutch play, for giggles sake, let’s compare September stats of Reyes and Wright. Kidding… Kidding… Let’s not go there today.
Excellent analogy. Thanks for commenting.
Reggie Miller regular season stats, career:
FG%: 47.1%
3 point%: 39.5%
Reggie Miller playoff stats, career:
FG%: 44.9%
3 point%: 39.0%
I hate myself for indulging this discussion but that was just too much to resist. I’ll willing to listen to, and accept, an assertion if there is evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, the conversation surrounding the clutch “debate” is generally devoid of evidence, and full of anecdotal stories about people in all walks of life choking or succeeding in certain spots.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656
“Clutch performances exist, to be sure; you can’t watch a day of baseball without seeing a well-timed hit, a big defensive play or a key strikeout that pushes a team towards victory. The biggest moments in baseball history are almost all examples of players doing extraordinary things in extraordinary circumstances. Those moments make the game great and the players responsible for them deserve credit, and even adulation, for their heroics.
In trying to get across the notion that no players possess a special ability to perform in particular situations, the usual line we use is that clutch performances exist, not clutch players. That’s wrong. The correct idea is that clutch performances exist, and clutch players exist: every last one of them.
All major-league players have a demonstrated ability to perform under pressure. They’ve proven that by rising to the top of an enormous pyramid of players, tens of thousands of them, all trying to be one of the top 0.1% that gets to call themselves “major leaguers.” Within this group of elite, who have proven themselves to be the best in the world at their jobs, there is no discernable change in their abilities when runners are on base, or when the game is tied in extra innings, or when candy and costumes and pumpkins decorate the local GigaMart. The guys who are good enough to be in the majors are all capable of succeeding and failing in these situations, and they’re as likely to do one or the other in the clutch as they are at any other time. Over the course of a game, a month, a season or a career, there is virtually no evidence that any player or group of players possesses an ability to outperform his established level of ability in clutch situations, however defined.
…………
The idea that players’ abilities do not change in the clutch is one of those things that gets the anti-stathead crowd riled up, gets them talking about pocket protectors and people who take the fun out of the game. I don’t buy it; the fun is the game, in the performances and the competition and the talent that we get to watch.
When you have that, who needs a myth?”
Your numbers are taken for his career, I’m assuming. Can you narrow those down to when he was in his prime? Or does this account for certain times of a game when his ‘clutchness’ was needed? Either way, you are right that it is tough to define and tough to put into stats to back it up.
LMAO….Like I said, here is someone who never played in his life. These players are human. They all are playing against the best. It doesn’t matter what the skill level is, because at the end of the day, there is a pressure to produce and an urge to win. When you have the weight on the game riding on your at bat, you need a strong mind to bring you to that silent moment when you block everyone and everything in your life out. The ability to zone in and succeed. Anyone who thinks ‘clutch’ athletes don’t exist never ever stepped onto a field. Sports is filled with “star” players who never make it happen when the game is on the line. It’s not just baseball. It’s academic in all sports. The reason is there is that little extra gift from God that makes you stand out.
Statistics are the true tools of ignorance used and misused by people who don’t understand what it takes to be a competitor. The concentration, intelligence, moxie, confidence and will to get ahead of your opponent. Reggie Miller could shoot 2-15 in quarters 1 thru 3, but in the 4th quarter, Reggie would drain 8-8 and finish 10-23. Not a great %, but nobody cares because he won the game in the 4th quarter for you. That’s the story of Reggie Miller. A man that rose to the occasion when the game was on the line. A big time clutch performer who would get minimized by some fat, out of shape, snicker eating nerds who never played basketball in their life. That’s your sabermetric crew for you.
The Mets have had guys like that: Keith Hernandez, Edgardo Alfonzo, Mike Piazza and Carlos Beltran. These men were death to opponents most of the time. We have “stars” on our team who don’t have much success when it counts: David Wright & Jose Reyes to name 2.
Thumbs up! Amazing! I <3 Snickers.
Why don’t you just respond to him instead of sounding like a snickering 7 grade girl? Do you know what it’s like to be nervous in very important situations? Things like that? Answer him without resorting to any snark
Chew away, fat boy. It’s the closest you will get to being an athlete is that Chewing commercial…LOL
So if stats are true tools of ignorance then one would deduct that Clutch is really just opinion.
Since the stats don’t prove he is or he isn’t clutch, then what do we do, go on the opinion of yours and others that have blind hatred for the man?
Yeah that works…….
Now I have read the true tool of ignorance…..
Yeah, because Wright is THE epitome of CLUTCH..ROFL! SMH
“A recent exchange on Twitter between me and a couple of other Mets bloggers, reminds me of why there is such a great divide between the sabermetric crowd and for lack of a better term, the traditionalists, or the old-school crowd if you will.”
Like the need to make labels that may not really apply?
“In my opinion, the cause for the divide isn’t really the stats one employs to evaluate the performance value of any one player,”
It pretty much is. When the guys who suppsoedly don’t use stats refer to things like pitchers wins and RBIs, they betray their own biases.
” but it’s more borne out of some stark philosophical differences.”
Yes, certain people don’t think that just because you did something dumb in the past, you need to keep doing it.
“Is there is such a thing as a clutch player or a clutch performance?”
You can label a performance “clutch”, I suppose, but that is based on perception.
“To many baseball fans, Mike Piazza’s post-9/1 homerun was no less clutch than a home run he hit in a 9-2 loss to the Braves. They say there was nothing clutch about the home run at all, and it was all incidental and not something that was driven by the heat of moment or a pure adrenaline rush, as Mike Piazza himself seems to believe. Apparently, because human emotions are not statistically evident or measurable, it’s believed by many that there should be no accounting for them.”
The thing with this is it has some much emotion attached to it by all of us. Whether or not the particulars of the situation affected Piazza’s at bat aren’t what’s important.
“In other words, if you can’t prove it’s existence, than it doesn’t exist. Where have I heard that before?”
Anyone with at least a basic understanding of logic ever? I have no idea why that statement is so hard to digest.
“Oakland GM Billy Beane, is one of the most well known saberists (is that a word?) this side of Mars. His ability to build and maintain winning records based on selecting players with high on-base percentages is the stuff of legends here at Mets Merized Online.”
Ah, the old stand by. What exactly does he have to do with any of this?
“Incidentally, did you know the Mets are mere percentage points away from being the top team in the National League in on-base percentage? It’s true… I wouldn’t lie to a couple of tough guys like you.”
Nifty. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You know, does clutch exist?
“Why does the mere mention of the words “clutch hitting” infuriate so many baseball fans everywhere, especially the saberists?
Maybe our readers here at MMO can give me an explanation and shed some light as to why so many believe there is no such thing as a clutch player or a clutch performance?”
Maybe you can find an example of someone getting infuriated over it?
“Obviously, I’m biased because my father and uncles who would take me to games as a kid, spoke a lot about clutch performers and clutch performances all the time. They spoke quite often of Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra (yes, one of my uncles was a die-hard Yankee fan) or Tug McGraw and Tommie Agee. Their views of the game and their great baseball stories, had a lot to do with molding the way I watch and perceive games today.”
Yes, you watched games with your dad/uncle/grandfather/brother etc. Welcome to the club. It’s called everybody. My dad immigrated here and lived next to the Polo Grounds and got to see Robby Thompson’s Shot Heard Round the World. It’s what made him a fan.
But the warm sentimental feelings you or I may have don’t change facts.
“I don’t understand how some would say that Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter are equally as clutch or un-clutch as David Wright and Jason Bay?
Is that really how it is?”
If the facts say so, why not?
“Does pressure cause SOME PLAYERS to ratchet up their performance and rise to the occasion, while OTHER PLAYERS simply wilt and wither away?”
Apparently not, because good players are good players in any situation. They just live in that moment.
The reality seems to be that “clutch” is a matter of perception. I have yet to see 2 people who even define “clutch” the same. How are you going to tell me who is or isn’t clutch when you don’t even know what to look for?
Besides who Francesa tells you is clutch of course.
Not citing any stats, it appears to most people’s recollects and observations that David Wright gets too anxious in key “game on the line” situations both at bat and in the field.
That’s the problem: people’s recollection. Human memory is not a recording device, it’s a safety mechanism. It filters out the things that conflict with our preconceived notions or warps things that we may not be able to handle.
To paraphrase a great man:
Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that clutch existed. Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.
BINGO
When you have a blind hatred for a guy, you’re always going to remember only the failures, but never the success.
Selective……..
My only problem with the word “clutch” is that it’s tossed around so easily. To me, calling Justin Turner clutch is an insult if you call a guy like Derek Jeter clutch as well.
I think WE as Mets fans see a game and think “that was clutch” but if some guy in Los Angeles isn’t watching the Mets game, he doesn’t think Justin Turner is any more clutch than the next guy… nor would you think James Loney (just random example) is clutch either.
A clutch performance can only be a clutch performance because of the people who are viewing that performance. To me HR that wins a 1-0 game but happens in the 5th, has the same end result as a HR in a 0-0 game in the 8th.
The second you look towards any stats to prove your point 1 way or the other about a player being or not being “clutch” to me is the second you totally defeat yourself in the argument.
How often does a player have to come through in order to be “clutch” or fail in order to “not be clutch?” It’s all in the eye of the fan in the given moment. If Wright hits a GW HR in the 7th, you’ll forget about it the second he strikes out in the 8th in another game.
Does clutch hitting exist? Probably but can you tell me who the most clutch players in baseball are without looking at a single stat?
I think a player being clutch is overrated, but you cannot deny it has some place.
If you have ever played any type of sports yourself, you know that you perform differently depending on a variety of factors.
A player who is clutch one year may not be clutch for a career, because it could a factor of luck, especially for a small sample size. It is more indicative if a player constantly fails in certain situations in the long term.
See People,
All these crybabies all going to work to try and disprove what they don’t want to know.
Actually what is happening is a waste of time, because people like you are so arrogant and base what you think are facts on “I know what I saw”, which means you are blind.
Trying to have an adult debate with the likes of you and some of your high school friends is what is ridiculous at this point.
You base your opinion, and yes it’s opinion, on what you saw, no facts, but you think they a facts……
The rest of the world saw what happened.
The TEAM failed, the bullpen blew record amount of games, but Wright didn’t bail them out 100% of the time so it’s ALL his fault….after all Murphy is still on 3rd.
Talk about loser….wow……
A couple of slight inaccuracies with the September 2008 numbers so in an attempt to correct some of them here goes.
David Wright in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.340/BA .416/OBP .577/SLG 6/HR 21/RBI 97/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=pbSks
Carlos Delgado in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.340/BA .400/OBP .649/SLG 8/HR 22/RBI 97/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=LGj9M
Carlos Beltran in 25 Games in September 2008 hit:
.344/BA .440/OBP .645/SLG 6/HR 19/RBI 93/AB
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=kO8JP
David Wright in September 2008 had
12/rbi in wins 9 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=g7ejD
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 had
15/rbi in wins 7 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=CK1N6
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 had
15/rbi in wins 4 rbi in losses
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=IDcF5
David Wright in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
13 Games – The Mets were 6-7 in those games
David Wright in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
12 Games – The Mets were 7-5 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=g7ejD
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
15 Games – The Mets were 5-10 in those games
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
10 Games – The Mets were 8-2 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=CK1N6
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 failed to drive in an rbi in
13 Games – The Mets were 4-9 in those games
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 drove in an rbi in
12 Games – The Mets were 9-3 in those games
baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=IDcF5
David Wright in September 2008 had 0 at bats from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game.
Carlos Delgado in September 2008 had just 1 at bat from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game. – 9/1/2008 vs Brewers: 2 run hr in 8th giving Mets 3-2 lead. baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIL/MIL200809010.shtml
Carlos Beltran in September 2008 had just 1 at bat from the 7th inning on that either tied or gave the Mets a lead in a game. – 9/25/2008 vs Cubs: rbi single in the 9th giving the Mets a 7-6 win. baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN200809250.shtml
In the end Wright/Delgado/Beltran didn’t have enough to make the difference in getting the Mets into the postseason.
The Team as a whole failed.
No, there were no inaccuracies. I knew you were going to try and pull something like this
When I finished my research I knew there were certain people that were gonna rush immediately to go to work and try disprove the fact that Delgado & Beltran outperformed Wright in 2008 – regardless or your own beliefs i knew this was gonna be done.
You take a friggin hike too.
You guys LOSE.
Like I said unless I misinterpreted something there was some “SLIGHT” inaccuracies.
t agee says:
September 13, 2011 at 8:00 pm
“September 2008
Wright .340/.416/.577 9 7 20 22″
Tagee was slightly inaccurate it should read:
Wright .340/.416/.577 5/2b 6/hr 21/rbi 19/r
********************************************
Bayonne Mets Fan says:
September 13, 2011 at 8:21 pm
“13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.”
Again just slightly inaccurate it should read:
12 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
********************************************
Bayonne Mets Fan says:
September 13, 2011 at 9:12 pm
“He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses”
Again just slightly inaccurate it should read:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 15 of which were in wins and 7 in losses
********************************************
For the record I agree Beltran and Delgado outperformed Wright in September of 2008 but in my opinion not as much as some wish to believe. As far as I am concerned on the whole thing all 3 were rather comparable overall in Sept 2008.
The Team as a whole failed.
And still i have a typo it should read:
********************************************
Bayonne Mets Fan says:
September 13, 2011 at 8:21 pm
“13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.”
Again just slightly inaccurate it should read:
9 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
********************************************
Here is where Wright supporters don’t look honest. I want some true stats. How many runners did Wright leave stranded? How many homers did he hit in non-blowout games? How many extra basehits did he have? To me, these are relevant numbers.
September 24, 2008 is still etched in my head. That’s the night Wright has not made up for. He was useless. What killed me was his very next at bat on the 25th, he hit a sac fly to drive in a run. That still bothers me. That very next night, Beltran had to save Wright’s bacon again. Same situation. Wright is up and with Jose Reyes running, he whiffs. Delgado is walked again, but Beltran saves the day with a game winning single.
YES.. i do remember the day after the strikeout, he failed miserable again, and beltran BAILED HIM OUT..
And you’ll get your answer and then you’ll move the goal posts again. You just narrow it down until you think you’ve boxed Wright in.
I am not sure who your speaking to but since it is nested under my comment I will run with the idea it was intended for me and you can correct me if I am wrong.
I don’t know what Wright supporters you speak of but speaking for myself as that is all I am speaking for. I have to ask what you are referring to when you say “don’t look honest”?
If by honest you mean trying to deny that Wright didn’t fail/choke in many spots in September 2008 you can rest assured that is not the case. Wright did fail/choke in many big spots in September 2008 so did Beltran so did Delgado so did the entire team. Which is my point when all is said and done and I came to that conclusion based on watching them play those games in September 2008 way before ever looking at any stats.
Now you may not agree as I can imagine many don’t but I have no desire to change you or my buddy Alex’s opinion or anyone else for that matter. My initial intent was 1. to correct some slight inaccuracies and 2. to try and show what I already believe that while Wright failed/choked so did Beltran and Delgado to a lesser extent and in the end Wright/Delgado/Beltran didn’t have enough to make the difference in getting the Mets into the postseason and the team as a whole failed.
If you want “true stats” I am sure it’s all their at mlb.com just may take a little effort to dig it up.
Bayonne states that Wright did not knock in a run in the Marlin series in Sept of 2008 as a knock against him but the facts are very clear about this. In 12 plate appearances Wright had a TOTAL of only THREE base runners that whole series and every single one of them was on 1B.
Since bayonne continues to insist that Wright and Wright alone was responsible for us missing the playoffs that year lets take a look at Carlos Delgado’s last series vs. the Marlins. Delgado did knock in a run that series. One to be exact. On a SAC Fly.
NINE base runners in his 12 plate appearances. NINE COMPARED TO THREE. INCLUDING TWO INSTANCES OF 1ST AND 2ND AND ONE OF 1ST AND 3RD.
How did Delgado fare with his ELEVEN base runners.
Friday 1st inning 1 out, runners on 1st and 2nd result K.
3rd inning 1 out no one on result single.
5th inning 2 out runner on 1st result GB 4-3
7 inning 2 out runner on 1st result GB 4-3
Sat 1st inning 1 out runner on 1st and 3rd result SAC fly
3rd inning 2 out no one on result K
5th inning 2 out no one on result 6-3
8th inning 0 out runner on 1st Double play
Sun 1st inning 2 out no one on result single
4th inning 0 out no one on result line out CF
6th inning 1 out no one on result K
7th inning 2 out 1st and 2nd result line out LF
Totals for Carlos Delgado in the 2008 season ending series Vs. the Marlins:
With runners OB Delgado made nine outs in 8 opportunities including the double play and SAC fly.
With no runners on Delgado had 2 singles and made two outs.
And someone else wasn’t clutch? You gotta be kidding us right?
Compare that to Wrights season ending series against the Marlins where he had only three base runners on (all on 1st base) and he got two singles in 3 AB’s and was OB himself either by hit walk or HBP in 6 of his 12 plate appearances and it’s unclear why bayonne would be stacking the deck and employing a double standard by singling out Wright in that series (as he did) while saying absolutely nothing about Delgado who had many more opportunities and even with those opportunities did not even get a single base hit, walk or anything else in any of them other than a SAC and even that (1st inning, 1st and 3rd, no one out) isn’t really what your hopeing for in that situation anyway.
Now I don’t believe that you can point to just one player for costing a series but if your going to specifically criticize just one guy, based on what actually happened ON THE FIELD, in that season ending series how could bayonne be putting that criticism on Wright and remaining silent about Delgado?
Delgado came to the plate with NINE base runners including 1st and 2nd twice and 1st and 3rd once and all he got was a SAC fly out of it and even hit into a double play. He also had a runner on 1st 3 times and got out each time.
I still think they ALL could have done a little more but to just single out one guy……..Hmmmmm.
Must be something else here at work other than just the actual on field results.
Oh come on Agee, i don’t think anybody is saying that Wright was the ONLY reason why the Mets missed the playoffs.
Right Vinny,
This all started when tagee threw out that random RISP slash line that put Wright, Delgado, and Beltran on an even keel in September 2008.
But when I broke it down game by game it proved that Beltran and Delgado drove in runs when we needed them the most and Wright drove in runs for the most part – when we needed them the LEAST.
Of course it’s not all Wright’s fault. But you you how tagee takes everything out of context all the time. And that’s why we wind up with long drawn out posts by him. Maybe he does that to diffuse, who knows.
That’s all you can respond to Vinny.
You have nothing to say about Delgado’s performance in the 2008 season ending series against the Marlins?
Your perfectly OK with someone criticizing Wright for having no RBI in that series despite him having only 3 base runners total, all of whom were on 1B while Delgado had 3 times as many base runners, three of whom were in scoring position and all he got out of it was a SAC and never even so much as a single.
Your cool with it being put on Wright (as bayonne did in this post?)
Your good with the double standard?
Most of Carlos Beltran’s RBIs in Sept 2008 were in games the Mets won.
Most of Carlos Delgado’s RBIs in Sept. 2008 were in games Mets won.
and MANY of those RBIs were in close games the Mets won.
Most of Wright’s RBI’s were in games the Mets LOST
David Wright:
13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss.
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
Carlos Beltran:
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
You know, the types of games tagee doesn’t consider when he goes through his parade of 100 names whenever he starts blaming Omar and other Mets GS for Mets losses when the Mets have had their chances ON THE FIELD.
So MOST of Carlos Beltrans September RBIs came when WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST.
So all you people can take your general blanket RISP stat and shove it where the sun don’t shine. And I say that with a smile.
Carlos Delgado:
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
NO INACCURACIES.
Go home and hold your Jason Heyward doll nice and tight
That was all I was able to respond to because I was too busy responding to Donal’s snarky comebacks.
Ok, so anyway, I don’t think this is just about the one series, or the one AB. I think that’s just one part of it.
And I think Bayonne’s research proves that he wasn’t clutch during that final month. Did he play good that month? yeah he did, but you can’t seriously read that and tell me that was clutch.
and like I said, nobody saying the ONLY reason why the Mets lost is because of Wright.
You’re using me as an excuse for your own shoddy work? Really?
Lame.
Ugh, Donal, I was just joking.
OK Vinny.
I don’t really have a vested interest in proving Wright clutch or not. Personally I think his platoon splits preclude him from ever being able to be truly clutch in the 7th inning or later but I don’t think bayonne proved anything. His figures weren’t even accurate.
bayonne did in fact make particular mention of the 2008 Marlin series as a criticism of Wright and yet when you compare the results of that series between him and Delgado who would you say had was more clutch and who would you say was less clutch in that one particular series that bayonne made mention of?
Yep, Wright did get hits when nobody was on. He had plenty of chances to get hits with people on big spots before that and FAILED.
but tagee is now blaming the people for not getting on.
Life doesn’t work that way son
move on and go lay down with your Jason Heyward inflatable doll
Agee and Jessep,
Look at Wright’s game logs at the end of that year, are you seriously going to tell me that was CLUTCH? Of course he did good, but come on, I don’t know how you can say that was clutch.
Vinny,
So now when watching a baseball game and when we see a hitter get a hit later in the game when he’s failed before with runners on. As we’ve seen in many games. You can now blame the runners for not getting on – according to tagee. We now have a full fledged 100% built in excuse to use forever!
Welcome to the new baseball where you can always have an excuse so it’s now okay to lose!
I’m gonna remember that tonight for let’s say…Mets are losing 2-1 in bottom of 9th, 2 outs and Josh Thole gets a single. I’m gonna blame Pagan and Bay, the 2 batters before him, for not getting on.
Let’s blame the runners for not getting on.
That’s the tagee mind set folks. Believe it.
Wright’s failures began BEFORE the Marlin series. It began in the Cubs series. He GAGGED not once, but twice. Beltran saved his ass the second time around. Castro and Church couldn’t save his ass the game before.
his research also proves David Wright isn’t a pitcher
“13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.”
What does that have to do with it?
So if Wright hits a HR in Top of the 9th to go up 2-1 but Billy Wagner blows the save and the Mets lose 3-2, Wright is now unclutch?
Right Jessep.
I mean this is the thing with these monkeyballers. For some reason they go ape over every RBI Wright has labeling them insignificant, stat padding, meaningless or some other nonsense but really when you look at that season how could you label any RBI meaningless?
The bullpen blew leads seemingly every other day. Sometimes twice in the same game. How can any run driven in, in any inning be insignificant?
Wright had 21 RBI in September of 2008. That’s 21 runs that may not have scored had he not driven them in. Were all of them in the late innings of a blowout? I’m not going to bother checking because this isn’t about what’s happened on the field. This is about something else.
I mean for someone to criticize Wright for not driving in runs in the 2008 season series finale when Delgado clearly choked in all his opportunities and Wright didn’t, clearly shows there’s some sort of an agenda here.
Maybe it’s perception based on the 2008 season before that series. Maybe it’s an attempt to deflect attention away from one of the worst bullpen melt downs of the modern era. Maybe it’s something else, who knows. What we do know is that Delgado choked away the 2008 final series by not getting a single hit when he had a man on base even though he had numerous opportunities.
Delgado had two hits the whole series both singles both with no one on and in his six AB’s with men on actually combined to make seven outs and yet this series is pointed to as an example of Wright not coming through.
What a joke.
as the bodies of jessep and tagee lay wiggling on the ground as the dust settles.
kicking and screaming to the very end.
Que?
keep whining. I already laid everything out.
Regarding the last 3 games vs. FLA Wright got hits when WE DIDN’t NEED THEM.
As I proved. Beltran and Delgado got hits and drove in runs WHEN WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST. And David Wright got most of his RBIs during LOSSES.
and as for the last 3 games (one of which Beltran HRed) Wright got hits when there was nobody on.
Don’t blame the guys for not getting on. Life does not work that way. If he was the hero you’re attempting to make him out to be he would have hit solo HRs
GIVE IT A REST Mr. Second guess. It’s over, you lose again. you ALWAYS lose and you ALWAYS wind up crying, complaining, and best of all – SECOND GUESSING.
Wright DID get hits when runners were on in the 2008 Marlin series. Three times he came up with a runner on, each time on 1B. Twice he got a base hit.
Delgado came up 6 times with runners on including twice with 1st and 2nd and once with 1st and 3rd and got ZERO hits. He did get a SAC fly (1st inning 1st and 3rd no one out) but he also hit into a double play (8th inning no outs runner on 1B)
Delgado also came up with a man on 1st three times and again got ZERO hits. Delgado did have two hits (both singles) in that series but both of them came with no one OB.
Of the six PA’s in which Delgado came up with men OB he made 7 outs (including the SAC and Double play) Of the six AB’s Delgado had with no one on he had 2 singles and made 4 outs.
And someone else wasn’t clutch.
Right.
Most of Carlos Beltran’s RBIs in were games the Mets won. 15 of 19 in Sept, in fact
Most of Carlos Delgado’s RBI’s were in games the Mets won
And most of the RBI’s for both of those guys came in close games the Mets won.
Most of David Wright’s RBIs’ came in games the Mets LOST in Sept of 2008
Move on crybaby
So when the team lost at least Wright was trying to get the team a win, others did nothing, you are still making no sense.
Talk about crybaby.
I have never tried to make Wright out to be the hero. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statements.
On one hand you criticize Wright for having no RBI in the Marlin series when he had a total of 3 runners on in all 12 of his AB’s, all of whom were on 1B and on the other hand you give a total pass to Delgado who had NINE runners OB in his 12 AB’s including two on 2B and one on 3rd and actually managed to find a way to make seven outs in his 6 AB’s with men OB.
Wright got a hit in two of his three AB’s with men on and has either a hit, walk or HBP in six of his 12 PA’s in the entire series.
Delgado had ZERO hits with men on base. True he had a first inning SAC fly but he also had a 8th inning DP.
Delgado had two hits the whole series both singles, both coming with no one OB but when he did have opportunities he squandered them and yet you see fit to label someone else “not clutch” based on the results of that particular series.
What a hypocrite.
And while both Beltran and Delgado are credible potential HOFers Wright’s performance should really be more compared to his contemporary if your interested in comparing stats but Reyes was no where to be found in that series either and no mention anywhere of his disappearing act either in that series or in either of the two pennant races the Mets lost.
Very curious. Very curious indeed.
Makes you wonder why everyone else always gets a pass and it’s always Wright’s fault.
Hmmmmm.
Most of Carlos Beltran’s RBIs in were games the Mets won. 15 of 19 in Sept, in fact
Most of Carlos Delgado’s RBI’s were in games the Mets won
And most of the RBI’s for both of those guys came in close games the Mets won.
Most of David Wright’s RBIs’ came in games the Mets LOST in Sept of 2008
tagee really going down kicking and screaming.
And OmarFan claims Wright’s supporters are dishonest.
Wright’s detractors point to this specific series to criticize him and say nothing what soever about Delgado’s performance.
OmarFan goes so far as to write why couldn’t Wright hit a HR?, hit a gap or a line? Well why couldn’t Delgado? Delgado had three times as many base runners on in that series as Wright did and and three of them were in scoring position. Wright had none in scoring position.
Dishonest?
LOL
If it weren’t for Delgado, the Mets don’t sniff first place. Delgado did things in 2008 Wright will NEVER be able to do. If Wright had 1 clutch at bat in the last WEEK of the season, the Mets make the playoffs.
Isn’t amazing how we can bring up clutch performances by certain players, yet we can’t for Wright? It’s not a coincidence. While we have EXAMPLE of big time performances by STAR Mets, we have stats to defend Wright.
Gotta say it’s comical in here. Beltran and Delgado get brought in here to lead and all you ever hear from Wright haters is how Wright spits the bit.
If your brought in here to lead don’t go 0-6 in the final series with men on base. That’s not clutch.
Far from pitching around Delgado the marlins came right after him and that’s how he responds?
Nine base runners when Delgado shows up at the plate in that series. Three in scoring position. One driven in on a SAC fly, one eliminated on a double play and the rest left right where they were and someone else isn’t clutch.
You really can’t make this **** up.
LOL.
still crying huh
Most of Carlos Delgado’s RBIs in Sept. 2008 were in games Mets won.
and MANY of those RBIs were in close games the Mets won.
Most of Wright’s RBI’s were in games the Mets LOST
David Wright:
13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss.
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
Carlos Beltran:
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
You know, the types of games tagee doesn’t consider when he goes through his parade of 100 names whenever he starts blaming Omar and other Mets GS for Mets losses when the Mets have had their chances ON THE FIELD.
So MOST of Carlos Beltrans September RBIs came when WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST.
So all you people can take your general blanket RISP stat and shove it where the sun don’t shine. And I say that with a smile.
Carlos Delgado:
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
NO INACCURACIES.
Now tonight when the Mets are losing 2-1 in the 9th and Angel Pagan and Jason Bay both ground out to start the inning and Josh Thole then gets a base hit – blame the guys in front of him for not getting on base….
….but only say that AFTER seeing the base hit after the first 2 outs are made.
Take a hike already, man.
Face it Delgado had a **** series against the Marlins in 2008. Happens, even to to great hitters. It’s not really fair to look at the results of just 3 games but your the one that brought up that series.
A big component to driving in runs is having guys OB when you get up there. If you don’t know this I can’t do anything for you.
Wright had 3 guys OB total the whole series, all on 1B, mostly because Reyes went went 2 for 13 that series and Delgado went 1-7 in the two games he hit in front of Wright and eliminated another base runner by hitting into a DP and yet you bring up that series to bash Wright?
You gotta be kidding right?
Reyes goes 2 for 13, Delgado goes 2 for 11 and strands 8 and eliminates another on a DP. Beltran goes 4-10 with two walks (with Delgado behind him) and Wright goes 4-10 with a walk (with Evans behind him) and a HBP and you use this series as an example of Wright, who had two hits in three AB’s with runners on not coming through when it matters most?
You specifically brought up that up that particular series so let me ask you this:
How about Delgado? What about Reyes? We know how you feel about Wright’s performance but what are your thoughts on those two guys performance in that series?
Carlos Delgado:
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
Yeah but YOU brought up Wright’s performance in the Marlin Series that’s why I’m asking what your thoughts are on Reyes and Delgado’s performance in that same series.
after this no more, you’re a piece of work, the “strayer” – an excuse maker to the very end:
After this go and prepare your excuses for tonight’s game in case the Mets are losing by a run or 2 in the 9th inning. Like if Pagan and Bay lead off the inning with hits, then Paulino gets a base hit – THEN you go back and say AFTER the base hit – well Pagan and Bay should have gotten on base.
——————————–
tagee says:
September 2008
Beltran .344/.440/.645 8 6 19 22
Delgado .340/.400/.649 6 8 22 21
Reyes .243/.314/.402 4 3 12 15 + 2 triples
Wright .340/.416/.577 9 7 20 22
How exactly were Delgado and Beltran “raking” and Wright was “lost in the shuffle”
when combined there numbers are almost all identical?
————————-
Bayonne says:
David Wright:
13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss.
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
Carlos Beltran:
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
You know, the types of games tagee doesn’t consider when he goes through his parade of 100 names whenever he starts blaming Omar and other Mets GS for Mets losses when the Mets have had their chances ON THE FIELD.
So MOST of Carlos Beltrans September RBIs came when WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST.
So all you people can take your general blanket RISP stat and shove it where the sun don’t shine. And I say that with a smile.
Carlos Delgado:
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
NO INACCURACIES.
Now go cuddle up with your Jason Heyward inflatable doll and put your head on the shoulder of the Jersey Weasel so he can coddle you, make you feel better and say “they lost as a team”
correction – that should read “Like if Pagan and Bay lead off the inning with outs”
i’m tired already. It’s over man. Now go prepare your excuses.
Since people like to talk about just one series, game or even a solitary AB let’s talk about the game before the Marlins Series in 2008.
I believe OmarFan was discussing this very same game earlier.
Vs. Chicago obviously a must win which we did on a Beltran walk off single 7-6 in the bottom of the 9th.
Reyes goes 1-4 with a walk.
Wright goes 1-2 run scored, RBI off a Sac fly w/1 out bottom 1st.
Delgado goes 0-4 with an IBB right before Beltran’s single because Reyes stole 2B on Wright’s K.
So lets look at Delgado’s night since this game was also used as an example of Wright’s inadequacies.
1st AB by Delgado following Wright’s Sac GB to 2B 4-3 no one on. Inning over.
2nd AB by Delgado flew out to LF with Wright on 1B, 2nd out.
3rd AB by Delgado Wright on 1B Strikeout 1st out.
4th AB by Delgado Wright on 1B Double play 1st and 2nd out.
5th AB was the aforementioned IBB in front of Beltran’s walk off single (because 1B was empty after the Reyes steal of 2B during Wright’s K)
Basically you could say Delgado did ugots the whole game, a must win game by the way.
Wright got the 1 out SAC fly in the first and then singled once and walked twice in front of Delgado who got out all three times and didn’t even advance Wright (flying out to LF and striking out) and even eliminating him on a DP with no one out.
The reason I bring this game up is because OmarFan used this game as an example of Wright failing in the clutch but to me every AB in that game was clutch. Every single one. Cubs got two in the first off Pedro. I mean this game was a must have and with the kind of bull pen we had you need to convert as many runners as possible and we’re already down two.
Is this really an appropriate game to criticize Wright over? He did have a hit and two walks plus a one out SAC in the first to cut the defecit in half. True he struck out with in a tie game with Reyes stealing 2B but that was the only time he got out the whole game.
What about Delgado? Just the inning before trailing by two runs in the 8th Wright gets a leadoff single. Delgado promptly hits into a DP so we have TWO OUT and NO ONE ON. Big freakin help that was. We then string together four singles with two outs to tie the game and get this. You know who got those four consecutive singles with 2 out? Beltran, Church, Ramon Martinez and Robinson Cancel.
Delgado left it up to Church, Martinez and Cancel and if they didn’t come through we would have needed a sweep against Florida.
That’s how close the season came to being over after the first Marlin game friday night. Johan’s game wouldn’t have mattered, Beltran’s HR wouldn’t have mean’t anything. Probably neither even plays and yet this is the hysterical part.
Earlier today I read where Alex referred to this game as Beltran saving Wright’s bacon.
SAVING WRIGHT’S BACON!!!!! You gotta be ****** kidding me. More like saving Delgado’s bacon. Wright did his part in 4 out of 5 of his AB’s. Delgado made 5 outs in four AB’s and took an IBB.
I’ll tell you this freako cult of Wright haters will stop at nothing to change the facts in order to skew public perception against Wright when the story of that game is Delgado leaving it up to Beltran, Church, Ramon Martinez and Robinson Cancel to all come through with four consecutive 2 out singles to tie the game in the 8th.
Big time clutch game there by Delgado and then to follow that with 3 miserable games against the Marlins in which he stranded 8, eliminated Wright on a DP again and went 2-11 and failed to pick up a hit in any of his 6 AB’s with men on.
WOW! There is defintely more to this Wright hate than what transpired on the field after all folks, these games are the examples the Wright haters are putting forward as examples of Wright failing in the clutch and yet there really more like examples of Delgado failing in the clutch.
Wright didn’t leave it up to Church, Martinez and Cancel. Delgado did. And yet not one word about Delgado from any of them.
Hmmmmm.
Earlier OmarFan wrote about how he still remembers the events of Sept 24th 2008. I’m sure he reflects upon it often.
This was the infamous “Murphy’s still on 3B” game. Yeah Wright should have gotten the SAC there or taken the walk, no question. Delgado and Beltran both got walked and Church could have picked up Wright (as Beltran, Church, Martinez and Castro would pick up Delgado the next night) but he didn’t. Castro couldn’t come through either. That happens when you leave it up to the last inning. You just can’t leave it to the 9th inning every game and expect to win them all but the game was still tied. Ayala could have given us an inning, instead he gave up 3 runs in the 10th.
Perez could have given us more than 4 1/3rd with 6 hits, 5 walks a HR and 5 earned runs. Reyes didn’t have to get picked off with two on and 1 out in the 7th.
How come it’s always just on one guy?
Very very curious.
Yes, that ac fly was a ball Delgado hit to the wall in Lf. He almost got it out of the yard. The double play Delgado hit into was scolded. It was not some routine tapper.
Delgado was being pitched around, because he went on a MVP-like tear that took the Mets from BELOW .500 and 7 games back of the NL to a 3 game lead in September. He CARRIED the team for MONTHS. Beltran, despite knee issues also did his part by procuring some HUGE hits in the last week of the season. David Wright CHOKED the last week of the season. Hitting into hard luck isn’t choking like Delgado did. Striking out with men on base with the season on the line is CHOKING like Wright did. Just like David Wright did in the 2006 playoffs. Spin blame on others, but STARS make things happen. Wright DID NOT!
Delgado struck out once in each of the last 3 Marlin games in 2008, twice with the bases empty and once with runners on first and 3rd one out in the 1st inning. Wright didn’t strike out at all (or hit into a double play) in that series and now we’re getting the old “that fly ball went to the wall” and “that GB was scalded.”
Look everyone knows that there are tough outs in baseball and there are cheap hits too. That’s why to look at just one series isn’t really fair but that’s the series bayonne chose to bring up and while we know those things we also know that hits are hits and outs are outs and that’s they way it is.
No one ever got labeld clutch because they hit a lot of screaming outs.
bayonne sought to make mention of this particular series in the post about clutch in regard to David Wright. I chose to respond with a comparison of the lack of clutch displayed by Delgado in that same series, something bayonne missed somehow.
The facts are that in six AB’s with men on base Delgado got not one single hit. Not even one. He did have a first inning SAC but he also had an 8th inning DP. He had 3 K’s and four GB’s to the middle infield in that series.
That’s not getting it done and he wasn’t being around in that Marlin series either. His AB’s concluded on the following counts 0-2, 0-1, 0-0, 1-0, 0-0, 0-2, 1-1, 1-2, 1-2, 1-1, 3-2, 0-1. Presumably 25 strikes vs. eight balls assuming he swung at strikes and he had Beltran following him in game one and Wright behind him in game 2 and 3 while Wright had both Beltran and Delgado behind him on Friday he was protected in game 2 by Murphy and then Endy and game 3 by Nick Evans and Endy so quite frankly I think your full of **** and just making it up as you go.
There’s nothing to go “hmmmmmmmm” about. I was willing to forgive Wright for his DISASTER 2006 playoff series. I was willing to forgive his not so special finish in 2007. His OUTRAGEOUSLY PATHETIC exhibition against the Marlins and Cubs were it for me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Wright doesn’t get my hopes up any longer. On the contrary, I laugh when Wright comes up with the game on the line. I don’t worry, stress or expect SHIT from him, because he’s NOT clutch. He’s NOT a big time player. For YEARS, this team and their foolhardy fans thought this guy was something special. I was tricked up until 2008. It was all over for me there. He HAD his chance in my eyes. He BLEW it. They can sell me Wright from here to the moon, but when he is up, I change the station or start texting.
The people who are in denial are his supporters. You still believe the WFAN BS from 2006 that the Mets were better off with Wright than AROD. It was a laughable idea back then, and it’s even more ghastly an afterthought now.
He doesn’t belong batting 3-4-5 on a playoff bound team. He has never proven himself to be a bigtime player. When playoff games were on the line, the STARS are to be held accountable for their actions. THEY are the ones that are required to stand out from the rest. Delgado and Beltran did their jobs. Wright was not present and accountable when it mattered in 2006, 2007 and 2008.
And the real proof is in the pudding after Beltran and Delgado left. Wright is a SHELL of his former self. Carlos Beltran stands on his own talent. Wright was a shell of himself in 2009. Only a concussion excuse made people think that was his problem that year and the year following. That’s a pile of rubbish. This year, he was nothing special and then the broken back injury gives his fans more reason to toss out and excuse for his diminished results.
At the end of the day, Wright is still failing in game situations. Nothing has changed in that regard. He’s still a failure when the game is on the line.
I get that Wright isn’t going to have the career I once thought he might have. I also feel he became a stat compiler beginning in 2009. I also feel it’s painfully obvious that Floyd, Beltran and Delgado enabled him to break in big and now he’s not as good without them.
I get all of of that. What I don’t get is why some fans like yourself go off on him every chance they get. Wright’s like a lot of guys in MLB. The better the line up, the better he does. There’s a very select few players in MLB that can do what they do in any lineup. like 5%. To not be in that 5% is no disgrace.
I feel he peaked and declined all too quickly and I was always a Reyes first guy myself and then Beltran when he came over but what do you care who someone’s favorite player is? What skin off your nose is it if someone likes Wright the most? What ****** difference does it make in your life that you have to go out and distort the facts by giving everyone other than Wright a total pass while actually blaming Wright in games that overall he was a net positive?
What do you want to do? Choose everyone’s favorite band for them too? Their favorite restaurant?
Rarely do RH hitters have such wild platoon splits as Wright. That’s a huge part of his lack of ability to come through in the 8th and 9th innings of close games. Accept it. It’s not going to change. Unless he’s in a line up with two big LH sticks and a RH one he’s not going to duplicate his 2006-2008 regular seasons. Hate to tell you.
Guys like you take every opportunity to hammer a guy who’s still better than most starting players.
You guys take every shot at him while giving a total pass to everyone else and even point at specific games like you and Alex did about Sept 24th and Sept 25th 2008 and bayonne did in the following series against the Marlins.
Perez and Ayala failed miserably on Sept 24th. Total pass. Church or Castro could have come through too you know.
Sept 25th Wright has 4 consecutive successful AB’s. 1st inning SAC fly to cut the defecit in half a single and two walks and Delgado hitting behind him goes 0-4 including a double play in the 8th inning of a game we’re trailing by two. If it weren’t for 4 consecutive 2 out singles by Beltran, Church, Ramon Martinez and Robinson Cancel we don’t tie the game because Delgado turns Wright’s leadoff single into a double play.
Then with the game TIED in the 9th Wright has his first unproductive AB of the night, a strikeout. Reyes steals 2nd on it, Delgado gets walked with one out to set up the DP and Beltran comes through with the game winning single. Beltran picked up Wright but Beltran, Church, Martinez and Cancel had picked up Delgado the inning before and yet Delgado gets a total pass for his **** night.
Alex claims Beltran saved Wright’s bacon but Wright went 1-2 that night w/2 walks and a 1 out 1st inning SAC. Delgado went 0-4 with an IBB and left the whole thing up to guys like church, Martinez and Cancel with no margin of error and these are the examples the Wright haters picked. Ones in which overall he did as much as you could ask for and everyone else gets a total pass.
The Marlin series was the same thing. Delgado 2-11, 0-6 with runners on. Reyes 2-13, Pelfrey, Schowenweiss but all you ever hear from you guys is how Wright blew it.
I’m pretty confident that all you guys have played a lot of ball and as such you should have learned a long time ago that it’s never one guy or one play that sinks you. There’s always something that someone else could have done to turn things around but that’s not it with you guys. it’s always wright’s fault for every loss and I maintain that there is more behind that than just his on field play.
The smoking gun is in tagee’s OWN response. Therein lies the problem. These guys are actually defending Wright when they skip right over the prime example of what we are talking about all this time! Here it is:
First off I’m going to start with this paragraph by tagee:
“Rarely do RH hitters have such wild platoon splits as Wright. That’s a huge part of his lack of ability to come through in the 8th and 9th innings of close games. Accept it. It’s not going to change. Unless he’s in a line up with two big LH sticks and a RH one he’s not going to duplicate his 2006-2008 regular seasons. Hate to tell you”
Right there that’s a HUGE CROCK of BS and nothing but an EXCUSE. You’re saying that the reason Wright cannot come through is because he doesn’t have 2 LH bats with him. A loser’s lament if I ever heard one. If you’re a good clutch hitter your reputation precedes any of that – just get the job done. Period.
Now the next tagee paragraph i want to address:
“Sept 25th Wright has 4 consecutive successful AB’s. 1st inning SAC fly to cut the defecit in half a single and two walks and Delgado hitting behind him goes 0-4 including a double play in the 8th inning of a game we’re trailing by two”
That’s nice, Wright got a sac fly in the first inning. Now herein lies the whole crux of the problem of why people get annoyed. Let’s go to the beginning of tagee’s next paragraph:
“Then with the game TIED in the 9th Wright has his first unproductive AB of the night, a strikeout. ”
THERE YOU GO!!! This is what we’ve been talking about all this time and tagee skips right over it as if it was nothing.
Wright STRUCK OUT IN THE MOST IMPORTANT SPOT IN THE GAME! Tied in the 9th!
This is not about Delgado going 0 for 4 or Beltran getting a hit to save everybody’s ass because those guys have reputations as leaders and go to guys in big spots.
But tagee skipped right over the Holy Grail point we’ve been talking about and Wright STRUCK OUT WHEN YOU NEEDED HIM THE MOST. We’re not talking about his 1st inning sac fly.
tagee skipped right over it and it was right there for all to see because he was too busy doing what he does best, making excuses…Wright can’t come through in the 8th or 9th inning because he needs 2 LF bats and he strikes out in the most important spot in the game and tagee ignores it.
That’s why people are sick of David Wright because unlike the other 2 guys who you ATTEMPTED to put him on even par with Wright has a reputation of failing when you need him the most and he ALSO is vigorously guarded by his fan base.
That’s the problem. now time for tagee to come back with excuses and his long line of “But this guy” or “but that guy” or “well this guy didn’t do this” and so on.
Again, my original research called it EXACTLY how it was. This thing has been over a long time ago.
First of all I’m not really part of his fan base. I’m a Met Fan first and foremost and there are a number of players I enjoy watching more than Wright.
But to address your main points take Sept 25th.
Pedro gives up two in the first, Wright gets a one out SAC in the bottom half. I think that’s big, not huge but big. Delgado grounds out with no one on to end the inning.
Next AB Wright walks, Delgado fly’s out to LF.
Next AB Wright walks, Delgado K’s
Wright doesn’t get advanced on either AB.
Next AB leading off the 8th trailing by two Wright gets a single. Now to me that’s a big hit, not huge but it gives you hope. Your down two in the eighth and now you got the leadoff guy OB. Delgado erases him with a DP, now you got 2 out no one on. That’s huge….. for the Cubs.
Now Beltran, Church, Ramon Martinez and Robinson Cancel all get consecutive 2 out singles. If anyone of them fails we go into the 9th trailing by either one or two. Now that is freakin HUGE, but again, no word of Delgado’s awful night.
Had Delgado come through with just one hit somewhere in the 1st 8 innings we enter the 9th with a lead! 5 outs in 4 AB’s. Total pass and this game is an example the Wright haters point to as an example of Wright’s failures and yet it was Delgado that failed in ALL FOUR of his AB’s while Wright succeeded in four of his five.
This is what the Wright supporters point to when they talk about an unreasonable double standard. Wright has to be perfect to not get criticized. Delgado could go 0-4 and they’ll still blame Wright which is what your doing.
Unbelivable. You played baseball at some point in your life and your insisting Wright be perfect. 5 for 5. It doesn’t work that way.
Come the 9th inning Reyes gets on, Murphy K’s bunting, Wright K’s swinging while Reyes steals 2nd, Delgado gets IBB’d to set up the DP and Beltran singles to win the game. Great. Wright failed, Beltran picked him up. Happens all the time. In leagues all over the world. No one gets a hit every time up but between Beltran, Wright and Delgado who had the worse game? Delgado. Not even close and yet who do the Wright haters go after? Who else….
Secondly I never attempted to put Wright on an even par as Beltran and Delgado. All I did was compare their 2008 stats in July, August and September and taken in their entirety were overall pretty even. That was done to show that Wright did contribute in 2008, not to attempt to put him on an even footing with either of the Carlos’.
I’ve been watching baseball a long long time and there is no way I would compare Wright to either of those two. I don’t know why you Wright haters continue to compare him to those guys anyway. He shouldn’t have ever been compared to them and you guys are the only one’s that ever do it. I compared monthly production over a half season, not Wright to Beltran or Delgado. Big difference and if you don’t recognize the difference your not too bright.
Wright should be compared, if he has to be, to his own contemporaries. Not guys who are already assurred of getting many many HOF votes. Why are you insisting that he should be compared with guys of that magnitude? He’s not up there. Give it a rest already. He’s a top 5 NL 3rd basemen who posted damn good numbers in both pennant races he’s been in. Overall he’s a been an easy net positive for us but he’s not what you want him to be. Stop insisting that he should. Your not what other people want you to be either.
It is weird for a RH hitter to be SO much better against LHP than RHP. We didn’t realize this because the Mets were very LH dominant during the first few years of his career, now we do and so does everyone else and that makes him easier to pitch to in the late innings. I don’t see that changing but he’s still better overall than most of the 3rd basemen in the NL so you just have to live with it. He’ll be here for another two years and let go. Hopefully whoever replaces him will be able to post equal numbers if we’re in a pennant race as he did in the last 2 months of the two he was in here regardless of what inning the bulk of the production comes in and it’s a complete crock of **** that it has to always come in the 9th inning. It’s great when it’s needed but beating Wright with a stick when he goes 1-2 w/2 walks and a SAC and not even mentioning Delgado’s making 5 outs in his first four AB’s is an unacceptable double standard that has it’s roots in something other than on field performance.
I don’t know what your problem with him is. Whether too many teeny boppers wear his t shirt, he does too many commercials, he’s too closely associated with the failures of 2007 and 2008 cause he was the only one who talked to the press or whatever. That’s your problem. If your that insecure in your own position in life go to a shrink.
He’s not ken Griffey Jr, He’s not Chipper Jones, He’s not Carlos Beltran. Stop insisting that he be. Get on with your life and stop being obsessed with David Wright. You’ll be a much happier person I guarantee it.
I LOVE when people read what they want to read and twist things around to suit their argument. That’s what second guessers like you are all about on the internet. When did I say Carton and “BT” defended or supported David Wright? I bet you were one of the Delgado haters who was forced to eat their words in 2008. Thanks for playing yourself.
Carton and BT were ending Delgado’s career, while the bigger problem was ignored. My DISTRUST for Wright has NOTHING to do with what anyone from the media says. My distrust in him stems from his FAILURES in 2006 and 2008. We wouldn’t have this conversation if Wright wasn’t a CHOKE artist. What? The word CHOKE artist doesn’t exist in the world of sabermetrics? Amazing how no one regards Wright as a guy who steps up when the team needs him to step up.
As for Wright batting 3rd because he needed protection, that’s a gas. That’s admitting the man is inferior. If that’s the case, hit him 2nd. Wright didn’t belong in a premier spot in the batting order. Why hit him 3rd? What team does that? So you’re almost admitting Wright is a nobody without superior hitters protecting him. I wonder if you were ready to state that as the case back in 2006, 2007 and 2008? If you weren’t so busy OBSESSING about Omar Minaya, perhaps this wouldn’t be the first time someone rakes you over the coals over David Wright. And that wasn’t the thinking. Wright has been the marketing baby of the Mets since he got to the big leagues. The organization couldn’t wait to establish him as the #3 hitter. He easier to sell as the #3 hitter than the #5.
And my blood only boils after watching Wright CHOKE over and over and over again. In 2011, we still have dopey Met fans attacking Omar Minaya over some BULLLLSHEEEEET draft picks, but ignoring Wright and his orgy of gags in the same time frame. Good to see you’ve come off your laughable Chipper Jones expectations. Feel free to focus on his assorted shortcomings now that Beltran and Delgado aren’t around to save his ass. Now you have succumbed to REALITY. You’re 3 years late, but better late than never.
Here’s where we find out who is right and who is wrong. I want to see what you’re going to say if and when the Mets resign Wright in 2 years with numbers that more resemble 2009, 2010 and 2011 than they do 2006, 2007 and 2008. What will be the excuse if they resign him? I would love to see the excuses made then.
“I LOVE when people read what they want to read and twist things around to suit their argument.”
Obviously, since it’s your go to move.
“When did I say Carton and “BT” defended or supported David Wright? I bet you were one of the Delgado haters who was forced to eat their words in 2008. Thanks for playing yourself. ”
So, that doesn’t look hypocritical to you at all? Really?
It’s also very magnanomous of you to be able to forgive Wright for the 2006 post season. He should be very thankful.
I wonder if you’ve been able to forgive Reyes, Wagner and Green for turning a deep fly ball into a 2 out 3 run triple in game two.
The Mets, the media, nor fans were proclaiming Reyes, Wagner and Green were “The Face of the Franchise” and what not. That’s why I’m not all over these guys. I don’t expect Cancel or Church to come through and win us games as if they were star players. Isn’t that Wright’s job???????
The same way I’m not expecting Wright to be this team’s muscle in the future. The same way when the game is on the line, Wright will find a way to F*** IT UP!
I’m not obsessed with Wright. I DISMISS Wright. It’s YOU who are vigorously defending him as if he IS a special player. And you KNOW he isn’t a special player. Instead of BITCHING about drafts, you should be BITCHING about Wright hitting 3rd over Beltran who was forced to hit 5th, because they want to protect the “Golden Boy” in the batting order back in 2008. If Beltran had hit 3rd that year, this team easily wins a few more games.
Of all the second guesses on this message board, NO ONE wants to second guess the team for putting that overrated CHOKER in the #3 spot in the batting order. He hit there for MOST of the 2008 season. Why? You already know the reason why. And THAT’S why people like me are disgusted with the whole thing while his fans lap-dance to his phony statistics.
How about you do some research into WHY Wright was batting 3rd most of 2008?????? Who do you think ordered Wright hit third? Think Jeff Wilpon had his nose in this? Or Papa Wilpon? You think Omar Minaya brought Delgado and Beltran here to bat BEHIND Wright? Wright was the #5 hitter in 2006. Was batting all over the place while Delgado was hurting/recovering from surgery after the 2006 season. Instead of WASTING your time with concerns over BULLLLSHEEET draft picks, try using your second guess skills for things that matter.
WHY was Wright hitting ahead of Beltran and Delgado in 2008?
Why are you assuming that I know the reason? I’m not privy to the lineup discussions.
If you the reason spit it out. Don’t be a weasel.
I’m not vigorously defending him as a “special player.” I think of Wright as a better than average 3rd basemen. I do admit that at one time I thought he might be another Chipper but I’ve accepted his game. He’s a better than average 3rd basemen, he’s here for two more years and then we’ll cash him in for two high draft choices.
He’s not Chipper, he’s not Griffey Jr. and he’s not Carlos Beltran. He’s a good solid better than average 3rd basemen.
We have much bigger fish to fry then David Wright. We need a catcher, have to hope that Kirk, Den Deker or Puello take over CF, Lagares can seize LF soon enough to dump Jason in the Bay and that the young pitching comes through in a big way and that Flores turns into a better 3B than Wright.
That’s my position.
“He doesn’t belong batting 3-4-5 on a playoff bound team. He has never proven himself to be a bigtime player.”
He hasn’t? Really? Are you high?
First of all, you’re using a small sample size. Before you knew about Adam Dunn’s 2011 season, was he a big time player? What has Adam Dunn ever done in a playoff series or in a big spot? Oh whats that you say?
He’s never played in a playoff game in his whole life… but how could he have been one of the best 3-4-5 type hitters since 2004?
See here is where you’re full of it.
From 2005-2010, Wright drove in 100+ runs in ever year except one.
Can you name how many players in MLB have done that?
Of course you cannot.
From 2004-2010, only
Albert Pujols
Mark Texiera
Miguel Cabrera
Alex Rodriguez
Bobby Abreu
Adam Dunn
Hit 100+ RBI in at least 6 of the 7 seasons. And you’re gonna come on here and say “He’s NOT a big time player.”
“He doesn’t belong batting 3-4-5 on a playoff bound team. He has never proven himself to be a bigtime player”
Get real OmarFan.
Tell me what is so clutch about Abreu? What is so clutch about Dunn? What was clutch about ARod prior to 2009? But I’d bet any amount of $ you’d be damn happy with him in your lineup no?
LOL. OK, Lets cut to the chase. Here’s what ALSO boils my blood about Wright. Why was HE the #3 hitter in 2008? Your best hitters should hit #3 and #4. Wright is NOT when you have Beltran and Delgado around. Despite this, the Mets CONTINUED to placate upper management by putting this bag of hype batting 3rd. And here’s where meddling by non-baseball folks (the Wilpons) is SO obvious. You can’t tell me that Omar Minaya, Willie Randolph and Jerry Manuel don’t realize Delgado and Beltran are better hitters than Wright.
Why is Wright on that cute list you tossed up here so proudly? That’s simple. In front of him, the best leadoff man in the NL. Behind Wright, a deadly lefty slugger and behind him a wicked switching hitting line drive hitter with power. They were a pair of monsters PROTECTING the Golden Boy. What did Wright do to deserve the #3 hole in the order? Wright had NO BUSINESS batting #3 for this team. And the team suffered. The best lineup we had was Beltran batting 3rd and Delgado 4th. For some SICK reason, we leave a better hitter without protection hitting 5th. Alas, you can’t have “The Face of the Franchise” hitting 5th! SMH.
That sticks in my craw as well. Wright was a NOBODY in 2006, yet the Mets were hyping the boy up as an MVP candidate. Then they slide in the 3rd hole, as if he were AROD! In 2007, Delgado was walking wounded and wasn’t 100%. The morons in the media were already proclaiming Delgado was finished. First the idiot from ESPN “BT” and then the schmuck on WFAN (Craig Carton) firing up the most moronic of Met fans into suggesting Delgado was finished early in 2008. And this overrated windbag Wright was given the #3 spot in the order. We all watched in horror as Wright performed like the choke he currently is. He just struck out against Tyler Clippard in the 8th (no shocker there) and Gary Cohen is proclaiming Tyler Clippard to have starter stuff and how “unfair” it is to Wright..SMH. It’s SICKENING listening to the obvious and comical protection of this kid. And it’s been going on forever.
Then the EXCUSES for Wright. How we needed to get rid of guys like Delgado and Beltran so the Golden Boy could step up and become the “Spokesman” for the team. Wright couldn’t be a superstar because he needed to be the “voice of the clubhouse” and that guys like Delgado were blocking him from being the team’s leader.
All you INSANE Wright fanatics got EXACTLY what you desired. How does it feel to see Wright exposed minus Carlos Delgado saving his ass? Do those words need salt when you bite into them? Maybe some pepper? I remember the jibber jabber of FOOLS all over the internet who wanted Murphy to replace Delgado. How did that work out? Be THANKFUL Omar Minaya picked Ike Davis, because he will provide SOME of what was lost with Delgado. He won’t be as good as Delgado, but I trust he will be a better power hitter than Wright will ever be.
You want to protect Wright? Go right ahead. It’s what the Met media, his followers and convenient stats do for him. Too bad the team owner and TRUE MET fans know better.
See this is what I’m talking about. Wright haters hate him because of things people on ESPN or WFAN say. Who gives a fiddlers **** what any of those people say.
Jeez are you that insecure in your own life that you give a rat’s *** what Craig Carton has to say?
SMH. This is beyond unbelevable. Guy hates a player on his own team because of something some talk show host says. I told you this Wright hate was irrational.
Not that I would totally put it past them to make “suggestions” but I highly doubt that the Wilpon was making out the line up card.
Did you ever consider the fact that Wright might give you a lot hitting 3rd (and not get walked to face either of the Carlos’) while Beltran might suffer a little but still give you a lot anyway hitting without real protection. whereas Wright with no protection might be dead in the water?
Meaning that the sum total was greater with Wright 3rd?
Not saying that’s the way I would have done it but still a pretty likely possibility that was the thinking behind the line up.
Either way shouldn’t be something that would “make your blood boil.” Save that for bigger issues.
Regardless I appreciate your confirmation of the fact that that the Wright hate comes more from off the field issues than on.
I knew that had to be the case.
It’s like a WWE match where the loser gets PINNED fair and square but the let the loser get a few licks in at the end when the match is over. These guys are NOTHING but a bunch of phonies and not honest with themselves or the readers at all
All that CRAP he posted has no bearing on the initial research. All FALSE information in a final attempt to try and take a swipe at me more than the actual games themselves.
A complete loser.
So how do you like to get pinned?
You were proven wrong over and over, so you resort to calling people names. You hate Wright, you prove it every day, but you remember what YOU SAW.
Wright drove in RBI’s in games the team lost, in other words, he was doing HIS job, while others did NOT……..so those RBI’s mean nothing.
..and you claim you actually played the game?
WHAT talk about a loser…….
Seems funny to me that you used the WWE as an example in a discussion about whether or not “clutch” is real or not
Thanks MNJ.
So in other words Wright and Beltran failed to drive in a run in 13 September 2008 games and Delgado failed to drive in a run in 15 of those games.
and what you just said means NOTHING. Everybody take a good look at what this clown just said. Read it and see that it means absolutely NOTHING. Then go back and read my initial 3 findings about Wright, Beltran, & Delgado.
It’s as clear as day and all the rest of the garbage Mr. Second Guess and Mr. Butt Kiss are spewing is nothing but grasping for straws. Mr. Butt Kiss’s summarizes that they lost as a team. Well DUH you can say that about every sporting event that has ever existed in history.
The matter is done. All that’s left is 2 people looking like whining crybabies looking bad in front of the readership. Delgado and Beltran did their jobs in Sept. 2008 and Wright did NOT.
The initial post was tagee just throwing out random RISP slash lines about all 3 showing that their production was on an even par. But when I broke down the game by game results it proved that slash line was VERY WRONG.
Murphy is still standing on 3B and Beltran and Delgado did their jobs.
Guess I’m going to have to repeat my findings:
David Wright:
13 of Wright’s 21 RBI’s (according baseball reference he had 21 RBIs in September of 08) were in LOSSES.
He had two 3 RBI games, one in a 13-10 win vs. WASH and the other in a loss.
He drove in NO RUNS during the last 3 games in the last important series vs. FLA. So that’s that.
Like I said, he may have had nice numbers but when you need him the MOST he FLOPS
REGARDLESS of the total numbers he puts up. Like I said, I know what I saw I DEFINITELY remember David Wright had a lot of opportunities to drive in important runs in September and he FAILED.
Carlos Beltran:
Conversely, Carlos Beltran in September of 2008:
19 RBIs in September (according to baseball ref)
15 of those RBIS were in WINS!
and while 2 of those RBIs were in a loss they were in that last game vs. FLA when we lost 4-2, he hit a HR that game if i remember so he DID do his part.
And of those 15 RBIS in WINS:
3 were in a game Mets won in 10 innings vs MIL 6-5!
2 were in a game Mets won vs Nats 10-8!
2 were in that 13-10 win the next day vs Nats
3 were in a 9-7 victory over the Nats on Sept. 17!!
1 was in a 7-6 win over the Cubs on Sept. 25!
and of course the last 2 were in that HEARTBREAKING loss vs. FLA on last day of season.
You know, the types of games tagee doesn’t consider when he goes through his parade of 100 names whenever he starts blaming Omar and other Mets GS for Mets losses when the Mets have had their chances ON THE FIELD.
So MOST of Carlos Beltrans September RBIs came when WE NEEDED THEM THE MOST.
So all you people can take your general blanket RISP stat and shove it where the sun don’t shine. And I say that with a smile.
Carlos Delgado:
Carlos Delgado also had a STELLAR performance in Sept. 2008 for the Mets and did HIS best to keep the Mets in the hunt:
He had 22 RBis in Sept. of 08, 14 of which were in wins and 8 in losses but wait:
2 were in a 4-2 win vs. Mil
4 were in a 6-3 victory over Phil on Sept. 7!
3 were in a 10-8 win over Wash!
He drove in 1 in that 13-10 win over the Nats
2 were in a 9-7 win over the Nats!
Now check out 7 of those 8 RBIs he had in losses
3 were in a 7-6 loss to the Braves
4 were in a 9-6 loss to the Cubs!!!!
NO INACCURACIES.
I notice how far into detail you go to show the specifics of Beltran and Delgado. You even point out that they were awarded RBIs in loses that were also close games. You are finally accepting that one player does not cause a team to win or lose, but can increase a team’s chance to win. Good for you.
What you should do is break down Wright’s performance in the same way you did the other 2. You are surprisingly lacking in your breakdown there.
Is amazing how some ppl here just cannot accept the fact that the golden child is not a clutch player. ppl here went the extra mile to try to disprove with numbers something we have seen with our own eyes. again, i DON’T HATE david wright, matter of fact, i always say had the mets gone to the playoffs in 2007 he was gonna be the MVP, with that being said i brought up the 243 AVG WITH RISP because he did have a total of 124 rbi’s during the 2008 campaign, HOWEVER all year he failed miserably to get the big hit. he had 19 sac flies and innumerables rbi’s with grounders while reyes was on 3rd base, had he hit 300 or even 285 with RISP that year he would’ve had at leats 140 rbi’s, but he didn’t and maybe the mets failed based on our #3 hitter not having the eggs to handle pressure. especially in that game against the cubs. we’ve all seen it with our eyes, whether you a fan or not, this man has failed miserably in clutch situations, and remember, the man did nothing in the playoffs, but he got a pass from me and everyone either because it was his first playoffs app, or because that postseason was all about beltran. but fast forward to 2011, we know now he’s just someone that with no beltran and delgado to carry the heavy load and the pressure, is just an avg player.
See a lot of people above my comment here proved to me why clutch is such a silly word. It’s only used when trying to further validate your displeasure for a player.
Name all of the clutch hitters in baseball right now? Ready go. Derek Jeter…. …. ….
Name all of the non clutch hitters in baseball right now? I bet any $ most of these people start with Wright.
So what percentage of success does a player need to be proven clutch? What percentage of failure do they need to be proven “unclutch”?
That’s why I don’t buy into it. In a MOMENT can somebody be clutch? Yes. But as a person are they simply clutch or unclutch? I don’t really see how you can prove that to be honest.
All the supporters of clutch are doing here is trying to say Wright isn’t clutch. Tell me what is clutch?
Tell me NON-Mets whom are clutch outside of the generic Jeter answer, and tell me NON-Mets who are 3-4-5 type hitters who you know are not clutch please
David Wright
Career .302/.382/.511
High Leverage .318/.388/.530
Derek Jeter
Career .313/.383/.449
High Leverage .317/.396/.432
Just sayin…..
lmao, you are just comical. wow. just wow.
Really? I wasn’t even trying to be funny.
you are.. seriously.. you are. david wright’s “numbers” against a guy who’s made a living on crunch situations is just hysterical. why dont the wright lovers just admit he’s a KNOWN CHOKER so we can move on? do you really have to look for every little stat to try to prove he’s unclutch as hell? really? we watch the games bro, we see what he does, he fails in a big spot, game changing moment, then the other team goes up or extend the lead, then in a meaningless at bat, he’ll hit a home run or drive in a run or 2 to pad his stats. the mets with him as the “leader” will go nowhere ANYTIME soon.
The only people who think Wright is a leader are three people here who think he’s not a leader. What does that tell you?
he called himself a leader, so how come he’s not getting any flakes for that and we do? he CALLED HIMSELF A LEADER OK..
No, he said if others see him as a leader. He never declared himself the leader.
donal, this is wright after john franco called him out:
““With all due respect to Johnny, he doesn’t know what’s going on in this clubhouse,” Wright said Wednesday, after the Mets beat the Milwaukee Brewers 1-0 to stop a five-game losing streak. “I don’t feel the need to have to defend myself as a leader.”
HE CALLED HIMSELF A LEADER OK..
no he didn’t. He did not say “I am the leader”. He merely said he doesn’t need to answer to someone else’s perception.
again, he called himself a leader, and he was actually believing it when he said what matters is the coaching staff and the players, so he actually thought his teammates and coaches also thought he was a leader. that’s even WORST!!!!!!
Well, none of them seem to have a problem with it. that Man of the Year nomination could be interpreted as a vote of confidence in that regard.
For the record here is the quote in it’s entirety.
“With all due respect to Johnnie, he doesn’t know what’s going on in this clubhouse. I don’t feel the need to have to defend myself as a leader. If these guys in here respect me and think of me as a leader, that’s what I need. I don’t worry myself about outside people saying what they’re going to say, because it doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is these 24 guys in here and that coaching staff. Whatever anyone else wants to say, they can say whatever. But what’s important to me is what these guys think.”
nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2009/07/david_wright_responds_to_criti.html
I don’t know but to me I always thought Wright thought of himself as a leader in the clubhouse at least 1 of a group of leaders. He also I believe said he was more a leader by example.
Love the cherry picking quote. Thanks to NJ for the entire quote… always helpful to have you know… the facts
Because it’s a stupid title that no one cares about except for the militant army who need to search high and low for something wrong with the guy. I’m the leader of MMO. That carries about as much weight as Wright saying, “well, I need to be a leader.”
He is actually comparing Derek Jeter to David Wright? And using just a random slash line that just has a few “numbers”.
Oh, brother
Is your answer any better than “he just is” and “I know real baseball”?
Maybe he “two dislikers” could reply back or is the question too difficult to answer without saying “David Wright”?
is actually four dislike, me included, and i will give you clutch performers…
cliff lee, sabathia, arod, pujols are those type of players that exceel in last playoffs app. although lee didn’t fare well in the WS.
A-Rod is clutch? Don’t you remember 2004-2008?
yes i do. i also remember how he couldn’t be pitched to in 2009 when the yankees WON THE WORLD SERIES IN LARGE PART DUE TO AROD’S CLUTCH PERFORMANCE.
You’re so absolutely right about that I could hug you. So what you’re saying is that a player is viewed as “clutch” or “unclutch” based on their most recent performance in tight situations? That previous circumstances in their career don’t matter? Just their most recent performances?
arod carried seattle to the 2000 ALCS. was a good part of the yankees being up 3-0 on the Red Sox in 2004, then became “unclutch” in the playoffs, but regained his “dominance” in the 2009 playoffs and basically, carry the yankees to a WS victory. in part, when david wright does what arod has done in the regular season or 1 playoffs, then we can talk clutch and david wright in the same sentence, until then.. please, let it go.
But Wright was HUGE in your clutch stats in 2006 and 2007. He was a huge part of the Mets winning the NLDS in 2006. He had an off year in 2008 and then another good “clutch” year in 2009. Another off year in 2010. All I’m seeing here is a small sample size fluctuation of performance mixed with a little bit of “what have you done for me lately” attitude.
Alex, thank you for proving my point.
You use clutch when its convenient, that is why I don’t care “who is clutch” and “who is not.”
You’re calling Cliff Lee clutch… great, Cliff Lee is great in the playoffs but there are 162 games before you can get there.
You’re calling ARod clutch though is just evidence that clutch is a “what have you done for me lately” term. Which I should note, I wrote that before I even read Xtreem use the same exact term.
You’re a phony sorry. All “clutch” is, is a word used as an excuse to be an angry fan or to give praise when 162 games isn’t enough of a resume.
Wright was an absolute JOKE in the 2006 playoffs. In 2007, Wright made some nice compiling of stats in the 3 games. Nice to fudge stats to serve you purpose.
Wright did not do well in the series vs the Cards, but did have one homerun.
He it .333 in the series vs the Dodgers…yeah that is an absolute joke.
YOU are an absolute joke.
Funny how Wright is a stat compiler and you’re willing to give the world to a guy that can’t stay healthy. Did you see how HE did in the playoffs – if you like jokes, you’ll be laughing at that one for a long time.
What 3 games?
We didn’t make the playoffs in 2007.
You mean you included 3 times
Bill James made the FATAL MISTAKE of giving his research TOO MUCH CREDIT when he said:
“Random data proves nothing—and it cannot be used as a proof of nothingness.”
As you CORRECTLY pointed out…
LACK of proof does not mean LACK of existence!
More often it means lack of INSIGHT or UNDERSTANDING of the “Nothingness” that makes you look in the wrong places using the WRONG methods to make you MISS what is CLEARLY visible! Missing the forrest for the tree principle so to speak!
20 years ago there was no proof for planets around other solar systems, THEY EXIST! It wasn’t until some careful thought into HOW to find them was given that a methiod was found to PROVE their existence!
Einstien suggested Black Holes SHOULD exist but no proof of any actually existing had ever been found. THEY exist not just as a rareity but in just about EVERY GALAXY in the universe! Once they decided to look at the stars AROUND the black holes they could NOT SEE!
Lack of proof is hardly ever PROOF of NONEXISTENCE, More likely it is proof of LACK of INGENUITY and OBSERVATION, not lack of existence!
As I have pointed out MANY MANY times during the great OBP and Sabermetric debates when you focus on the OBP your not focusing on the CAUSALITY of events that actually make a team succeed!
It is not the OB that CAUSES the run to score it is what the batter did WITH a guy OB that caused the run to score! MORE RBI in itself represents who is the MOST CLUTCH!
Two teams with the same OBP but one with more RBI will ALWAYS be more successful. They are MORE CLUTCH than the other and score MORE RUNS! Even a team who has a BETTER OBP than another can fall short on scoring runs compared to the one who has a higher RBI total and scores the more with LESS OBP!
Sabermetrics doesn’t look at the PA itself only the RESULT of PAs, does not take into consideration the situation the PA occured in, just the situation that existed AFTER the PA.
This is why RBI correlates better to RS than OBP does because it is the RBI that actually CAUSES the run to score! And if it isn’t the RBI it is the DEFENSE that allows it!
Bill James can’t find CLUTCH because he isn’t looking at the PA but the base runners ON during the PA!
And you have to admit, if you look in the living room for the Keys you left in the Bathroom you will find NOTHING!
But that NOTHING does not PROVE that the Keys left the universe in a Quantum flash or do not exist…
It just means your BIAS towards the living room BLINDED you to the reality that exists in the bathroom!
Lack of proof does not mean lack of existence, lack of proof usually means lack of skill and insight into FINDING what does exist because you DO NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND the REALITY/CONCEPT and refuse to look where your bias doesn’t want to take you!
Failure to find a result in research is more often an inadequacy of the reasearch than an inadequacy of the concept being sought!
Especially when it is OBVIOUS some people perform better under pressure than others!
The fact Bill James couldn’t prove it says MORE about his research than anything about CLUTCH HITTING!
“20 years ago there was no proof for planets around other solar systems, THEY EXIST!”
Umm, yes there was. telescopes could see shadows crossing over certain stars.
“It wasn’t until some careful thought into HOW to find them was given that a methiod was found to PROVE their existence!”
Thats not how it works. What you are essentially saying here is just because we have no evidence at all of unicorns doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
telescopes could see shadows crossing over certain stars.
No they couldn’t but I expected you to be the first to try and change the FACTS based on BELIEF and not empirical evidence…
First ExtraSolar planet was discovered in 1992!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planet
Until then they had NO PROOF they existed just suspicions!
If Bill James was the one looking he would say they DO NOT EXIST until 1992!
And he would be WRONG!
“The first confirmed detection was in 1992″
You know what that means? It means it proved the hypothesis right.
Further down the article
“The first published, confirmed discovery was made in 1988 by the Canadian astronomers Bruce Campbell, G. A. H. Walker, and S. Yang.”
Its within the last 20 years that we’ve been able to confirm the existence of extra solar planets (ie actually see and record them), but there was always evidence for them. As early as the 1500s, we have documentation of people speculating on the prospect.
Edwin Hubble theorized and came up with mathematical proofs for other galaxies that included planets. that was around 1910.
Right but there WAS NO PROOF!
And without it Bill James in charge of the research would have said they DO NOT EXIST wouldn’t he?
There was evidence. People noted gravitational effects and shadows as well as the theorems of scientists like Hubble and Einstein.
No one on a whim just said “hey. lets start pointing telescopes, sending probes and spending billions of dollars on outer space just for the hell of it.” There were sound reasons to think it would pay off.
Right after 1988 but before then there was no proof nd Bill James would have said they don’t exist!
Run and hide from that reality but the truth is the SAME SITUTATION exists regarding clutch!
There is SOME notion that it exists but the actual PROOF has yet to be found.
Bill James simply says IT DOESN:T EXIST!
Therefore if he was an Astronomer before 1988 he would say OTHER PLANETS DO NOT EXIST!
Would he be correct?
NO! He would be as wrong then as he is NOW!
There was evidence of extra solar planets. What has happened lately is we finally have actual pictures and solid proof. They had reason to do further research. Why are you having so much trouble with this concept?
what you need to do is find actual evidence clutch exists. Actually, first, you need to define it. Then, you need to find evidence that would make us think we will get further results with deeper research.
And saying “this guy is clutch” is not evidence. It’s circular logic.
“Lack of proof is hardly ever PROOF of NONEXISTENCE, More likely it is proof of LACK of INGENUITY and OBSERVATION, not lack of existence!”
Are you a Big Foot hunter or something?
No I’m a SCIENTIST who understands that you must be SMART ENOUGH to know that not finding something requires an OPEN MIND that will allow you to find the methods REQUIRED to find the PROOF!
And you have to actually WANT to find the proof which is where Bill failed the most!
He didn’t want there to be CLUTCH he wanted it all to hinge on the OBP he was obsessed with!
“No I’m a SCIENTIST who understands that you must be SMART ENOUGH to know that not finding something requires an OPEN MIND that will allow you to find the methods REQUIRED to find the PROOF!”
First of all, you are an engineer who isn’t smart enough to know the difference between an engineer and a scientist.
Second, not finding something means you have to consider the idea that it does not exist. If you can’t find any evidence at all of it, you pretty much have to accept that.
“And you have to actually WANT to find the proof which is where Bill failed the most!”
No, you have to want to find the truth. When you focus on simply confirming one answer, you taint your research and void any credibility you may have.
You become more focused on being right than being honest.
“He didn’t want there to be CLUTCH he wanted it all to hinge on the OBP he was obsessed with!”
And here’s where you lie and try and deflect from the point.
DUH!!!!
Engineer is an occupation….
Relies on the SCIENCE of Physics!
Electrictical engineering is the occupation of someone who deals with the science of electro-magnetics and ENERGY!
But what would a teenager like you know about science?
Your still learning your ABCs probably!
Please don’t tell me people actually rely on you for their jobs and/or lives.
You don’t even understand what engineering is.
Yeah well then why do I have a job as an Enginner then dopey?
What do YOU do for a living aside from living off your parents Donal?
Burger Flipper at Mickey D’s would be my first guess!
Engineering is an OCCUPATION that uses a SCIENCE as the basis for the engineering!
Mechanical Engineers use PHYSICS to do what they do, an INCLINED plane here a LEVER there etc…etc…
Electrical Engineers use the SCIENCE or Electro magentism and spectrum to change the voltages, amps, and the conect of that SCIENCE to make electricity and magnetism do things that want done!
BOTH ENGINEER TYPES use the science of PHYSICS as the basis for thier OCCUPATION as an engineer!
But one day if you can make it past the 4th grade or by some odd stroke of luck get accepted to a college you will unbderstand these things!
Right now your just a smart mouthed KNOW IT ALL kid who has yet to figure out that something is learned EVERYDAY!
I deal with dozens of kids like you in the course of the week and I can tell you maybe 1% of them ever get to the level of understanding that I have and use that pays me the big bucks!
“Yeah well then why do I have a job as an Enginner then dopey?”
Incriminating photos?
“What do YOU do for a living aside from living off your parents Donal?
Burger Flipper at Mickey D’s would be my first guess!”
Much like your attempts to understand scientific process, you’re wrong.
“Engineering is an OCCUPATION that uses a SCIENCE as the basis for the engineering!”
That is just an awesome sentence. It really is great.
Yep but at least I have a job and don’t live in Mommy’s basement making believe I’m smart and posting on a website that proves otherwise with childish posts like the one you just made!
You are on the official IGNORE list!
Got no time for children who haven’t a clue!
OOOOOO, mommy’s basement. Did it take you all day to come up with that?
And then you call my posts childish.
ehhh you kinda used the word science there to make your point seem more valid. I know plenty of engineers in numerous fields, and some extremely successful and I’ve never once heard them say “I’m a scientist”
I agree science is a part of your gig don’t get me wrong but it’s kinda like when a Dentist says “I’m a Doctor!”
The way Metsie is talking, it’s more like a chiropractor claiming to be a doctor.
And the way your talking just shows how immature and ingnorant YOU are!
Has anybody yet answered my questions?
tell me NON-Mets who are 3-4-5 type hitters who you know are not clutch please?
Tell me what is clutch?
So what percentage of success does a player need to be proven clutch? What percentage of failure do they need to be proven “unclutch”?
Name all of the non clutch hitters in baseball right now?
If it’s SO obvious that “clutch” exists as a skill and not just a moment, then there has to be a measure to define that skill no? So what is it?
How many teams hire guys to be 3,4,5 hitters who are NOT clutch?
How many 30-40 RBI guys do you see in the 3,4, and 5 position?
But I can STILL cite examples…
Jason Werth for one!
Jason Werth happens to be on a bad team. And I have yet to find one person who thought that signing was a good idea.
I mean, it wasn’t even good in the Mets signing Pedro Martinez sense.
And what exactly does you citing Jayson Werth prove in terms of clutch?
Changing of the subject…Typical Donal Modus Operandi and expected!
You are just so out of your league in any of these discussions kid…
Metsie
So still I haven’t seen an answer to
tell me NON-Mets who are 3-4-5 type hitters who you know are not clutch please? — So far you listed… Jayson Werth?
Tell me what is clutch?
So what percentage of success does a player need to be proven clutch? What percentage of failure do they need to be proven “unclutch”?
Name all of the non clutch hitters in baseball right now?
Jason Werth!
Did you get the answer you wanted that time or do you go ONE MORE TIME in your feeble attempt to change the subject again?
So 1 guy?
“So what percentage of success does a player need to be proven clutch? What percentage of failure do they need to be proven “unclutch”?”
You didn’t answer that one by the way
And why is Jayson Werth unclutch as you list him so emphatically? Because he’s having a bad year? So does that mean the word clutch is use on a yearly basis?
If so, then you can’t tell me what player is clutch or not until the end of the season…. so Werth’s last 3 years don’t count? What about his 2008, 2009, 2010 playoff performances?
They don’t count? Stop yelling and stomping your feet and realize you haven’t proven anything. If anything you’ve proven that “clutch” doesn’t exist since you so emphatically demand Werth is unclutch yet ignore everything he’s done up until 2011 to make your claim
I’m not 100% sure, but I think Metsie is saying that Werth is not clutch because he has never drove in 100 runs even when he was hitting in the middle of the lineup on one of the best teams in the league.
Ya, because Werth isn’t that good.
I didn’t say werth wasn’t good, I just said I think that’s why Metsie said he was unclutch, Are you having trouble with reading comprehension, Donal?
And Jeesep, your right, that doesn’t make sense. But I’m not saying that. I didn’t say if you get to 100 RBI you are clutch.
So if Werth is unclutch because he hasn’t driven in 100 runs is that the bench mark? So all I need to do to find clutch 3-4-5 hitters is to find 100 RBI?
Then does that mean Wright was clutch in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 2010? Wasn’t his linup worse than Werth’s but he managed to drive in 100 runs? So if the knock on Werth is “no 100 RBI years with great offense” why doesn’t “5 100+ RBI years with a lesser offense” matter?
Again proving this word is just something people use when they want another thing to complain about.
Werth isn’t clutch because he hasn’t driven in 100 runs. Wright has driven in 100 runs 5 times but isn’t clutch.
How does that make sense?
Werth isn’t SKILLED enough to be a clean up hitter. He doesn’t have the talent.
Did I need more? Want a list of ALL of them?
There is no point as your entire QUESTION was pointless to the discussion of DOES CLUTCH EXIST or NOT!
And I gave your question all the attention it deserved as such!
Also does Jayson Werth’s career up until 2011 not count in terms of clutch? Again… further proving the word has no real significance in the sport. It’s just something people throw around when they are happy in a moment or mad in a moment.
Well since you seem to suggest there is no such thing as CLUTCH then no!
If he’s UNCLUTCH now he was UNCLUTCH THEN acording to you…
He may baan clutch back then but you didn’t ask that you ask for a current heart of the lineup guy is NOT clutch and Werth fits the bill!
I know your intention for asking was to try and suggest all hitters who bat 3,4, or 5 showed clutch numbers so therefore CLUTCH doesn’t exist but obviously you didn’t think it through enough because we found one and could find more if the QUESTION was actually relevant to the subject which it is NOT!
Initial research declared Pluto a planet. More recent research begged to differ. So you think that first guy just didn’t understand what a planet was? He had a thing for Pluto and skewed his research to include it?
And you’re still wrong about that RBI vs. OBP thing. RBI isn’t a cause, it’s the result awarded to the batter after the run scores. No run, no RBI. Runs and RBIs are the same stat, just awarded to each of the principal parties. The guy who drove it in and the guy who scored. But it’s still and always will be the result of the run scoring.
yes it is the reward for the GOOD PA!
It is the good PA that caused the run to score…we have been over this adinfinitum so no sense rehashing!
Right, the good PA. The hit or the walk. The things that calculates OBP. OBP is the cause, the run/RBI is the result. That’s why runs and RBIs are almost always exact. Because it’s the same stat.
No Xtreme again your going by the RESULT! Not the ACT!
Does a walk score the runner on 2nd? NO! NOT CLUTCH!
If the PA results in an RBI then the PA did something CLUTCH!
the RBI is an indicator that something in the PA was CLUTCH!
It could even be the sacrifice fly which is why Bill could not find it because he doesn’t like to give credit to outs and by cutting them out THREW AWAY much of the data that would be required to FIND clutch hitting! When you get rid of evidence and then find nothing is it true that there was nothing or is it more likely you just supressed all the PROOF of it’s existence?
This is what I am referring to when I say his Bias refused to take him to the observation point NEEDED to find CLUTCH HITTING!
He was so focused on not giving credit to the OUT that he could not see the GOOD of a PA that scored a run and therefore could not see the CLUTCH involved in that PA which was indicated by the RBI!
As for Pluto it fit the description of a planet at the time of the discovery. If the definition at the time called those objects plutoids then Pluto would be designatred accordingly!
The observer found what at the time was a planet.
It’s ridiculous that the “saberist” think that a player can’t perfrom differntly under pressure – I don’t buy the argument for one second that the type of situation and the amount of pressure during that situation, has no affect whatsoever on the player.
and what’s more ridiculous than that, is that they think that clutch is disproven by the flawed numbers they use – Their numbers are all wrong, they aren’t accurate at all – That’s why you see numbers showing that Wright is a better clutch hitter than jeter.
So, the only right numbers are the ones that support your preconceived notion?
There are no right numbers that measures how clutch a player is. There are flaws with all of the numbers that try to measure it, so I really don’t look at any of them.
The best way to do it, is by watching the players play, or break it down game by game like Bayonne was doing last night.
“There are no right numbers that measures how clutch a player is”
So, its all about your perception.
“break it down game by game like Bayonne was doing last night.”
The two statements don’t really jive.
“The two statements don’t really jive.”
yes they do. My point was if you look at it game by game go over each AB, that will be 100 times more accurate than just looking at a number that is flawed.
Where do you think the numbers come from?
The numbers that you are using sometimes don’t count AB”s in big situations, like RISP for example, you can be winning 20-0 and if you get a hit there it raises your avarege with RISP, see how that’s flawed? With a lot of those numbers you count useless information like that. Which is why it’s flawed.
Now if you go game by game, you don’t have that problem.
“The numbers that you are using sometimes don’t count AB”s in big situations, like RISP for example,”
Yes, they do.
“you can be winning 20-0 and if you get a hit there it raises your avarege with RISP, see how that’s flawed?”
Yes, not using all the information to put the numbers in context is a bad method. That is the point of the deeper statistical analysis.
“With a lot of those numbers you count useless information like that. Which is why it’s flawed.”
Ya, you’re just saying stuff. The whole point of deep statistical analysis is to put the numbers in their proper context.
Let’s take your example of the 20-0 game. On the surface, it seems like a 2 run double by David wright is meaningless in that.
However, what if those were the Mets first 2 runs? What if the opposing starter shut the Mets down for 7 innings and the 18 runs scored after Wright’s double were due to a collapsing bullpen? Does that somehow devalue Wright’s double? When he hit it, it was a scoreless game in the 8th inning.
your method left out some important context in this example.
“Now if you go game by game, you don’t have that problem.”
Yes, you do, if you are viewing everything with your own bias. It doesn’t matter if you saw the game from the dugout or only read the box score, if you are using your own bias and removing context, you’re going to get a flawed result.
I made a mistake there, your right, I meant to say it sometimes counts situations that don’t matter.
Your wayyyyy wrong about my example, becasue I meant if he had a RISP when the game was 20-0, and then got the hit – Not when the game was close.
So your whole point there is meaningless, just like all the clutch stats you use…..and I’d rather use my own judgement, than just beleieving what a flawed number says.
“I made a mistake there, your right, I meant to say it sometimes counts situations that don’t matter.”
Then you should have said that. Besides, you are still wrong. What you said right there in no way contradicts what I said about context being important for deep statistical analysis.
“Your wayyyyy wrong about my example, becasue I meant if he had a RISP when the game was 20-0, and then got the hit – Not when the game was close.”
It doesn’t matter what you meant. Only what you wrote. Besides, it still doesn’t contradict the scenario I gave you.
In the scenario I gave you, is Wright’s hit important or not? It is all about context.
“So your whole point there is meaningless,”
No, you’re just moving the goal posts. And still failing. Miserably.
” just like all the clutch stats you use”
Except you either clearly don’t understand or are determined to lie about them.
“…..and I’d rather use my own judgement,”
So, you’re memory and perception aren’t flawed?
“than just beleieving what a flawed number says.”
The number is fine. Its your perception that is the problem.
Porblems with clutch stats:
RISP: Counts AB’s in the game that have nothing to do with clutch – Like getting a hit with a RISP in a blow out, and it can also not count AB’s that are in big spots. let’s say there’s 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th and there’s a runner on 1st and your playing your division rival, in sept, and your losing the game by 1 runs, RISP will not count what happens in that AB!
So how can you trust a stat that ignores some clutch situations, and doesn’t count others? That’s right, you can’t.
High Leverage:
The problem with this one is, they have it that there’s only three different type of situations: Low, Medium and High – By doing that, it makes everything black and white – It counts all big AB’s as the same, when they really aren’t. For example, one AB in May late in the game against, lets say, the Astos’ will count the same as an AB late in the game with the scored tied and the bases loaded against the PHillies in sept – The two situations are very different right? But the “high leverage” stat won’t show you that, it will count both AB’s as the same when they are really not.
Late and close:
It has the same problem as high leverage does, just read my previous example, both examples are “late and Close” but they are very different situations, and late and close will count them as the same when they aren’t – also, it wouldn’t count a big AB earlier in the game either, so that’s another problem with it.
Those are just three of them, and as you can see they aren’t very good, there’s some more too, we can talk about them too if you want.
“RISP: Counts AB’s in the game that have nothing to do with clutch – Like getting a hit with a RISP in a blow out, and it can also not count AB’s that are in big spots.”
If you give us a clear definition of “big spots” rather than just rolling off very narrow examples, we can figure out a player’s RISP in big spots.
That is why context is important. As I’ve been saying.
“let’s say there’s 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th and there’s a runner on 1st and your playing your division rival, in sept, and your losing the game by 1 runs, RISP will not count what happens in that AB!”
RISP doesn’t count what happens in any 1 PA. What you do is you find how many PAs a player has in that situation and those similar and then see the results of each PA. That is how statistics are built.
Besides, you are seriously narrowing the field here. Sample sizes are important.
“High Leverage:
The problem with this one is, they have it that there’s only three different type of situations: Low, Medium and High – By doing that, it makes everything black and white ”
Actually, leverage is on a scale. Whoever is viewing the scale just decides where they will draw the line between say a medium leverage situation and high leverage situation. But the measuring itself is on a scale.
“It counts all big AB’s as the same, when they really aren’t.”
no, it doesn’t. At all. that is the whole point of it, to determine the difference in weight between at bats.
“For example, one AB in May late in the game against, lets say, the Astos’ will count the same as an AB late in the game with the scored tied and the bases loaded against the PHillies in sept – The two situations are very different right?”
And this is where your bias shows. Look at how you presented both situations. Look at how much more detail you went into the situation you decided should be worth more.
“But the “high leverage” stat won’t show you that, it will count both AB’s as the same when they are really not.”
Except we are rooting for a team that missed the playoffs 2 years in a row by one game. So, telling me one game in May wasn’t important is simply bunk. Besides, how can you act like it’s about a player’s mentality and then act like you know what is going on inside each player’s head?
“t has the same problem as high leverage does, just read my previous example, both examples are “late and Close” but they are very different situations, and late and close will count them as the same when they aren’t – also, it wouldn’t count a big AB earlier in the game either, so that’s another problem with it.”
and again, recent history shows why you’re idea of an important game is bunk.
Besides, Late and Close is used to appease people like you who want to talk about clutch.
And I like how you change gears in mid sentence to point out how it doesn’t account for PAs earlier in the game (hence the name Late and Close) and yet, earlier, you dismiss the idea of a leverage scale for pretty much that reason.
“Those are just three of them, and as you can see they aren’t very good, there’s some more too, we can talk about them too if you want.”
Only if you are going to be honest about them.
But hey, how about you define “clutch” so this can be a 2 way street? And I mean define, not give examples or invent vague scenarios.
It’s hard to give an exact defintion because it’s a complitcated subject. That’s because it’s a MENTAL part of the game, and it’s hard to see that part of the game by looking at numbers…..and that part of the game is usually ingonred by the saberist, which is why they have a hard time understanding this subject.
Just because you don’t understand that there is a mental part of the game(or just don’t care about it), doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
And it’s hard to give a defintion of a big spot because they can come at any time of the game, and it could be bigger or smaller depending on the team your playing, and the pitcher your facing – so to give an exact defintion of when it is, is almost impossible to do – It’s a complitcated subbject, and it’s not as cut and dried as your making it out to be.
and ther’s just one point I’d like to clear up(only one, because the others ones were meaningless and are just a waste of time) is that i didn’t say that game in May wasn’t important, I just meant that it wouldn’t have as much PRESSURE as would the other example I gave. because if you fail there, the seasons over, but in the other example, you still got 100 more games left to play.
That’s a very long way of admitting you don’t know what you’re talking about.
“That’s because it’s a MENTAL part of the game, and it’s hard to see that part of the game by looking at numbers…..and that part of the game is usually ingonred by the saberist, which is why they have a hard time understanding this subject.”
What a load of crap. The results are the results. Inventing names for someone you disagree with and declaring “a wizard did it” doesn’t change a damn thing.
I love how you make it to be some mysterious magical thing, but you are also able to see exactly what is happening in a player’s mind.
“And it’s hard to give a defintion of a big spot because they can come at any time of the game, and it could be bigger or smaller depending on the team your playing, and the pitcher your facing – so to give an exact defintion of when it is, is almost impossible to do – It’s a complitcated subbject, and it’s not as cut and dried as your making it out to be.”
No, the leverage scale does it rather well.
“and ther’s just one point I’d like to clear up(only one, because the others ones were meaningless and are just a waste of time) is that i didn’t say that game in May wasn’t important, I just meant that it wouldn’t have as much PRESSURE as would the other example I gave. because if you fail there, the seasons over, but in the other example, you still got 100 more games left to play.”
Oh, so you read players’ minds now.
“What a load of crap. The results are the results.”
You mean the results you got from your flawed stats? We already went over them, and how they are flawed…..but you’ll still believe them anyway.
“Inventing names for someone you disagree with and declaring “a wizard did it” doesn’t change a damn thing.”
……..I have no idea what the hell your talking about here.
“I love how you make it to be some mysterious magical thing, but you are also able to see exactly what is happening in a player’s mind.”
There is a mental part to the game, it’s not “mysterious” or “magical”, you can just ask anybody who has ever played pro sports, they will tell you.
and We alreadly went over the “leverage scale” It only views AB’s as low, medium, and high leverage, if you want to get the full picture you gotta go more in depth than that(Watch, now Donal will change the subject to another stat, just wait, you’ll see).
“Oh, so you read players’ minds now.”
Yeah, a game that’s going to decide if you make the playoffs or not doesn’t have anymore pressure than a game in May – What a joke….your kidding right?
“You mean the results you got from your flawed stats? We already went over them, and how they are flawed…..but you’ll still believe them anyway.”
Circular logic “You’re stats are flawed because I said they are flawed”
You can lie over and over again, but you’ll never be able to change the facts.
“……..I have no idea what the hell your talking about here.”
It’s the crux of your argument “A wizard did it”
“There is a mental part to the game, it’s not “mysterious” or “magical”, you can just ask anybody who has ever played pro sports, they will tell you.”
No, you’re making it to be magical.
“and We alreadly went over the “leverage scale” It only views AB’s as low, medium, and high leverage, if you want to get the full picture you gotta go more in depth than that(Watch, now Donal will change the subject to another stat, just wait, you’ll see).”
No, you lied about how the leverage scale worked and now are trying to act like you proved anything.
Now watch Vinny just hand wave and dismiss it without actually addressing it.
“Yeah, a game that’s going to decide if you make the playoffs or not doesn’t have anymore pressure than a game in May – What a joke….your kidding right?”
Missing the playoffs by 1 game 2 years in a row. Tell me again how that game in May is meaningless.
Better yet, tell me how you know what is going on inside a player’s head. I’m really eager to read that.
‘Circular logic “You’re stats are flawed because I said they are flawed”’
nope, I explained exactly why they were flawed, do you want me just post it again? because I can if you forgot what my points were.
“You can lie over and over again, but you’ll never be able to change the facts.”
I’m not lying, and I’m not changing any facts at all. I’m saying the numbers are flawed, and they are, it’s not my fault, that they are flawed.
“No, you’re making it to be magical.”
It’s just part of the game that you don’t understand, just because you don’t understand it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
“No, you lied about how the leverage scale worked and now are trying to act like you proved anything.”
Nope, i didn’t lie – I pointed out the flaws with it. And I was right.
“Tell me again how that game in May is meaningless.”
Aha! now your lying!!!!! I never said that game was meaningless. And I can actually prove here that you lied (unlike you, you just say I lied and you never back it up). So, here’s what I said:
“I didn’t say that game in May wasn’t important.”
My point is, with that game I used in the other example, had a lot more pressure in it. Anybody will tell you that game AB had more pressure.
“It’s the crux of your argument “A wizard did it””
Please don’t waste my time with crap like that.
So then explain to me how a GM in Seattle could ever know and or care whether David Wright is “clutch” or “not”?
He’s not seeing every game Wright plays correct? Nor are his scouts correct?
So if being “clutch” or “not” matters in terms of evaluating talent but the only way to measure it is by watching the player with your own 2 eyes, doesn’t that prove it’s subjective to your wants and needs and is not an actual skill?
If I am the Mets GM and I call Seattle GM about David Wright and I tell them “he is clutch too!”
What is Seattle’s response?
SIMPLE really…
He could look at the OBI stat!
Check it out!
It’s not perfect either but it is far better indicator for CLUTCH and what Bill James says does not exist!
So just so that I don’t get accused of spinning anything… Metsie are you telling me to use a sabermetric stat in order to measure how clutch a player is?
Thats all you would believe isn’t it? A sabermetric?
So I gave you one that DOES reflect somewhat a players CLUTCH HITTING ability!
Again you keep acting like I come here and brag sabermetrics. I don’t. I never have. If using OPS and WHIP make me a “saberist” or whatever the silly term is then fine. But I don’t use any other sabr stats than those, and those are used by everybody
No but you BELIEVE in them don’t you?
What BETTER evidence to use than something YOU believe in.
Your defending Bill James’ NON-BELIEF in clutch!
He said he ran the numbers through and through and found NO PROOF!
Yet numbers based on his OWN system produced one!
The point is what he believes doesn’t exist DOES but he could not find a way to prove it.
But he went and made the ARROGANT statement that because the GREAT BILL SABERMETRIC JAMES could not find any data to support it that it CAN NOT exist!
Yet Sabers DO when you open your mind to the possibility and set parameters in the METRIC USED to find what it is YOU DEFINE as CLUTCH!
It exists!
CLUTCH by MY definition is anyone who scores in a run when the opportunity is presented to him!
Score doesn’t matter, Outs made at the time do not matter NOT EVEN MAKING AN OUT by the batter DOES NOT MATTER!
A Batters job is to drive in runs when he has the opportunity. THAT defines clutch!
If you WANT to limit that Metric to a finer degree and only count PRESSURE situations where you need to get a lead or need a run to tie, FINE!
Just use those PA where that situation exists and take the stats of everyone who FACED that narrpw situation and see who does better in them…
THEY WILL BE and the STATS WILL SHOW who is clutch and who is not by ANY DEFINITION you want to linmit the parameters for!
I personally don’t use RISP because a CLUTCH hit can also score a runner on first.
So im my WIDE definition of Clutch I would do what the OBI does, Take the PAs where there was a runner on and how many were on total during those PA, and Ratio the number to how many of them he actually drove in!
THATS CLUTCH in my book. The more you score runs when you have the opportunity to do so the more CLUTCH you are!
You want to WEIGHT that then find a way to factor in GWH or GWRBI
It’s all about how much NARROWING you want to do.
Bill James’ problem is he narrowed out as much data because he DOES NOT LIKE RBI and does not CARE about RISP all he REALLY cared about was OB in the name of being stingy with outs!
he HATES Outs despite the fact they score runs AND are just as much CLUTCH ACTS as getting a walk that scores a run!
The RUN scored! He did his job! Could have done better maybe but he did get the run in.
THATS CLUTCH!
I’m not a saberist whatever that is but I’m still waiting… somebody who demands infact screams that clutch hitting exists has yet to tell me what it is, how it’s meausred and what the difference is between an unclutch and clutch player
If you’re so sure clutch exists then tell me what it is without using games you see with your own eyes as an example. We’ll use Seattle as an example
I can tell you who is fast, who has power, who hits for average, what pitchers have great strikeout stuff, what pitchers are groundball versus flyball pitchers, what pitchers have poor control, what fielders make the least mistakes without watching a single Mariners game.
So if clutch exists, then tell me who on Seattle is clutch and who is not please?
If it’s not in the eye of the fan and media then I shouldn’t need to see it. The fact is, clutch and unclutch is in your mind. You get excited when your team wins because a 9th inning hit feels better to you than a 6th inning hit that wins a game.
You get mad when a guy strikes out in the 9th and your team loses because its a lasting image and you hold it against them. We actually had 1 guy above say ARod is clutch. Of all things ARod is how many times has he been called “clutch”?
try looking at the sabermetric called OBI!
There is one of the pieces of evidence for the CLUTCH all of Bill James’ spreadsheets couldn’t find!
joe does this to drive pageviews
there’s always a braves blog you can go to.. make sure you take jesseP and co with you..
i cant imagine where you got the impression that i was anything other than delighted by this topic.
well, it was certainly predictable what you were going to find in this comments thread!
My opinion? “clutch” doesn’t really exist but “choke” does.
In essence, if you say a guy does better in the clutch, that to me implies that he could be doing better ALL THE TIME but does not bother! And in MLB, I don’t think you really have that.
But, in sports (as anywhere else) some people gag (choke up) under pressure, and some don’t. So you get the concept of most guys, over a big enough sample size, produce to their normal level even in the “clutch”. But sure, some guys fold in big spots (though like with A ROd, it doesn’t mean that at some point that can’t change!).
You would like to think a pro would not have that problem, but it still happens. Just like a normal schmoe. Say you are bowling in a league, and it is some random shot in the middle of a blow out game. Not that hard to throw a strike. But if you have the 1st 11 and are staring at a perfect game, it is a lot harder to get that last one with your heart pounding!
anyway, long way around of saying, call people chokers not clutch! Or is it that “clutch” is just the absence of choking, so it seems like you came up big?
It’s funny how all the Wright fans don’t believe in clutch. There’s a pattern developing.
It’s funny how all the jealous ones religiously follow clutch.
Bayonne: I’ve asked repeatedly to hear examples not regarding David Wright. Yet somehow he constantly gets mentioned. Proving clutch is a word with an agenda. Its not a skill. What does a player have to do to be clutch? I’m still waiting….
nah, that’s okay. I’ll just let you remain feeling like you’re on to something. Besides, you’re a non-athlete anyway so you don’t count.
lol oh I love when you revert to that old argument. It’s the famous “I can’t say anything accurate so I’ll claim to be more experienced”
Since you’re an amazing athlete, if you hit a game winning walk off HR in the 9th to win the game 1-0 and I hit a HR in the 5th to win 1-0….
Is one more valuable than the other? Yet you’d get a silly label as “clutch” but I wouldn’t?
bayonne played the game, bro.
David wright is a known choker..
I just want to say how proud I am of Bayonne for staying up for hours to actually research the box scores and try and to back up his point. He failed at it and still goes on like a petulant 12 year old, but that is definite progress.
I predict by this time next year, he’ll be screaming at someone and making accusations about their personal life for using fWAR over rWAR.
so lets see, 200 posts to basically say that Clutch is like pornogrophy (can’t define it, but you know it when you see it)!
Oh, I was about to ask you how one uses clutch to pay for college.
In some type of way I believe their are clutch performers or performances. Based on the fact that some players react differently in pressure situations. Look at the home run that Albert Pujols hit off Brad Lidge back in 04-05 in the playoffs and look at Carlos Beltran who struck out looking in game 7 of the 2006 NLCS.
I think Carlos just got beat by an unhittable pitch. Fooled, froze, got beat. Happens even to the best and the Cards saved that surprise for the end. Very cagey.
They had been pitching very carefully to Beltran all series long. Walked him 5 times and yet he still hit 3 HR’s against him. No way you expect someone to throw an 0-2 curve over the plate let alone one that starts up here and winds up down there.
Very, very ballsy move by Duncan, La Russa, Molina or whoever called for that pitch and talk about executing the pitch. Damn.
I’m telling you right now if that pitch flattened out it would have been a whole ‘nother story.
Bad ending but sometimes you just get beat.
Reyes just popped out to short with a runner on 3rd and one out.
IT’S WRIGHT FAULT – HE’S SO UNCLUTCH THAT WRIGHT….
Oh wait……..
MMO should acutally make a poll and see what the fans say, the POLL should ask mets fans in here: IS DAVID WRIGHT CLUTCH? or DO YOU TRUST DAVID WRIGHT IN A BIG SPOT?
then we’d be able to know what the majority of mets fans would actually think. all this numbers and trying to prove he’s not and everythin is just useless, the man folds in the biggest spot of a game. plain and simple, is funny how numbers can be deceiving, i will use basketball as an example, kobe bryant is the guy who at the last second you want taking the last shot, often we see highlights of him making a game winning shot or a game tying shot right, yet, LEBRON JAMES, who i like, is the guy who at the biggest stage of his life folded right, has a better FG % in “close situations than kobe bryant. lmao.. isn’t that ironic?? yet, i ask many of you, who do you want with the ball on his hands, bryant who we ALL SEEN his heroics, or lebron james who we’ve seen chokes in late situations but has better FG% in “late situations” than bryant?
if we watch the games, you can bring up all the numbers you want, is not really gonna help your case. we’ve all seen wright CHOKING AND FOLDING in the big stage, high pressure games and in BIG IMPORTANT MOMENTS (latest example sept 11th)
That would prove nothing. All it would prove is hat gets the most votes. The whole argument is based on perception and letting you and the Brown shirts make multiple accounts just so you could flood the results in your favor means nothing.
If you had a similar poll in the 1930s that asked if black players were as good as white players, what kind of results do you think you’d get? How does that relate to the truth?
what???? STFU man, as usual you have no idea what you’re talking about, is just a simple poll for MMO readers. it’d be better than having to read all the crap some of you are posting about how david wright is clutch or trying to come up with an excuse as to why he’s failed in big spots.. if a poll is ever done, and you don’t like it, simply don’t vote on in ok..
Again, you’re missing the whole point. You want to cash in on a perception you yourself are invested in. The only thing a poll would prove is how gullible people are or how little thought they give to what they are spoon fed.
all right, i’ll ask you, do you feel confident with david wright in a big spot? take any situation you want… ANY.. do you feel confident with him at the plate? honestly.. no stats, no numbers, forget the past, RIGHT NOW, let’s say is 3-2 atlanta, men on 3rd and 2nd 2 outs. or bases loaded i don’t care.. is all up to him, do you honestly feel confident with him at the plate? yes or no..
please no analogy or anything, it doesn’t have to be that exact situation, but make up one, i don’t care, just tell me, do you FEEL CONFIDENT with him at the plate in a big spot?
“all right, i’ll ask you, do you feel confident with david wright in a big spot?”
Yes.
See that? I gave you a straight forward answer. You and the Brown Shirts should try that some time.
Donal,
fair enough, i respect you opinion. i on the other hand don’t. at all!!!