23
2011
Wait’ll 2014?
An article by 
I ran into an article by Will Leitch of New York Magazine in which he continues his series entitled “Fixing the Mets”. This week Leitch weighed in on Mets management and wrote the following:
“It’s a weak free-agent class, and the Mets have a ton of positions filled anyway. The smart play — and the play Alderson is likely to make — is to keep building up the farm system and waiting to strike when the free-agent iron is hot (i.e., not this off-season). Will that be enough? Are Mets fans patient enough to wait another year? Omar Minaya would have never thought so. He would have felt the need to make some sort of big-money move. That’s how the Mets got into this mess. Alderson has to hope that Mets fans remain patient and let him do his job, because it’s gonna take more than one year. It may even take more than two.”
One or two more years until we can begin to look toward free agency? And how long until we begin to look forward to a division title, four years? Five years? Six years? Sorry, I can’t wait that long.
Why does every oratory and diatribe that puts the “Mets and winning” within the same sentence, have to be referenced in future tense?
Why must we wait another one or two years, or another three to four years?
For the millions of dollars that have been shelled out in constructing one of major league baseball’s highest compensated front offices, shouldn’t they be operating faster than a snail’s pace?
Whatever happened to that age-old baseball throwback, “Wait’ll Next Year”?
We’ve already waited one year, and yet Mets’ apologists are regrouping along the front lines, readying the troops and trumpeting the new 2012 rallying cry, “Wait’ll 2014″. Really?
What about that extra $70 million dollars we just skimmed off the payroll, what happens with that?
I figured the payback for dumping Beltran and K-Rod at the expense of undermining the bullpen and offense for the rest of 2011, would be so that the all those millions would be re-invested wisely on better players? Is that not the plan anymore?
Is every free agent class going to be cast aside with the excuses that there were no players that could have helped the team, and those that could have helped wanted too much money?
Well, how convenient…
Didn’t we raise ticket prices to help pay for players like Carlos Beltran and Frankie Rodriguez?
Well if this front office plans to slip most of all that loot they scooped up, and put it back into Fred’s pocket, can we at least roll back ticket prices to what they were in 2004?
If we’re going to pretend like it’s 2004 again, let’s go all the way and do it right. Why should fans pay major league ticket prices to watch the Buffalo Bisons get their butts handed to them by the Philadelphia Phillies?
If your plan is for us to come to the park just so we can see Tommy Pickles (David Wright) lead the rest of the Rugrats, than cut those ticket prices in half…
Or otherwise spend the money that we the fans have already paid into during the last five gut-wrenching years, and put a product on the field that’s worthy of all the accolades this front office keeps getting heaps of… and do it fast.
You had your year… time to start showing some results… and please don’t bother pointing to the farm as if it’s some measure of achievement… I measure success in major league wins.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
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Here is the jist of the post: “I don’t know what I want, I just want it done now”
Basically, you’re advocating spending for the sake of spending. That’s how we ended up with Jason Bay patrolling LF for another 2 years plus an easily attainable vesting option.
“I figured the payback for dumping Beltran and K-Rod at the expense of undermining the bullpen and offense for the rest of 2011, would be so that the all those millions would be re-invested wisely on better players? Is that not the plan anymore?”
You answered your own question: re-invested wisely. Just running out and signing any big name you can isn’t wise.
get off the bay signing, noone could have predicted such a pracipotous decline from him.
No, the Bay signing was bad. No one expected him to bomb this badly, but no one could have reasonably expected to put up the numbers he did in Fenway.
And no one could reasonably expect to save 2010 for the Mets, which is exactly how his signing was treated.
And he has bombed and now the Mets are handcuffed to him.
Its not about this one instance, either. Its about the systematic failures and lousy plan that led to this problem.
No the Jist of the post is Why did we get rid of all the good players in the name of saving money if there is no one to spend it on?
WHAT WAS THE RUSH?
And the answer to that is we were following the BIBLE and didn’t think about how long or WHO in the future, Just cut salary and suck until the Minors are so good you can fire a team and promote all of Buffalo!
Thats your plan and if Sandy follows it he will not be employed even as long as Omar was!
First of all, the moves were not all to save money. The Krod trade was to save money, and keeping him would not have affected whether the team makes the playoffs were not. The Beltran trade had nothing to do with money and everything to do with building for the future. The RUSH was to make the team competitive as soon as possible by giving the team more financial flexibility and potential impact talent for the future.
The money coming off the payoff after the season will be used to resign Reyes or get someone like CJ Wilson or Yu Darvish.
And what year is this FUTURE supposed to come?
Will Sandy be fired before it gets here?
Was it to make the team competitive ASAP or just LATER?
If you ask me 2014 is not ASAP!
WITH Beltran we could be competitive next year!
K-Rod could have helped too so this is ANYTHING BUT an ASAP plan!
This is an EVENTUALLY plan and what is most likely to be EVENTUAL is Sandy gets run out of town before it ever comes to fruition!
And many of you guys agreeing with it will be the first to kick his butt out the door!
So you are saying having Beltran and KRod would mean the difference between being 7 games under .500 and competing with the Braves for the WC? You think a 34 year old OF with bad knees is more likely to be the long term solution for this team rather than a top 20 pitching prospect? What are you smoking?
If you are so sure that the Mets will be competitive next year with Beltran and KRod, why don’t you tell everyone why the Mets will be 15-20 games better than this season, even if Davis and Murphy come back healthy (it’s not like 1B suffered such huge a dropoff with Murphy and Duda), Beltran will play 140+ games, Santana can come back and pitch effectively, and we’ll have the money to sign both Beltran and Reyes all the while paying KRod $17M? So who other than Santana, Niese, and Dickey fill the rest the rotation? Who will fix the bullpen? Get real. If you are so sure that your plan will make the team a 95+ win team, why don’t you elaborate it and show why your plan is better?
No Tru fan what I’m saying is don’t tell me your making the team competitive by getting rid of the only guys who actually put up decent numbers.
“(it’s not like 1B suffered such huge a dropoff with Murphy and Duda),”
WHich one of them hit 20 HRs?
Which one player error free 1st base?
Which one had the range of Davis?
You claim K-Rod would get paid 17 Mil…Well is he getting paid 17 Mil next year now?
“So who other than Santana, Niese, and Dickey fill the rest the rotation?”
Harvey and Holt? Whose going to be there under this Purging plan? Chris Young? The 5 Inning mastery of Chris Capuano? Is Wheeler going to be there?
Is your plan going to make us a 95 Win team next year?
If not then all those points your making are MOOT because My way we will AT LEAST be 7 games under .500 or BETTER. Your way we will be GUARANTEED a worse record than that because you got rid of anyone who was playing well enough to WIN games!
I am saying you get rid of two guys who put up decent numbers (not the only players putting up decent numbers) because one is going to be ridiculously overpaid and one has no future with the team. Neither of them makes a difference whether the team makes the playoffs or not this season so it made no sense to keep them. You can trot out the same tired arguments about them being productive and all but it’s totally irrelevant.
Ike Davis playing 1B vs Murphy and Duda would have maybe gave the Mets 1 or 2 more wins. It doesn’t make enough of a difference this season.
If KRod wasn’t traded then he would have been the closer since he’s clearly the best arm in the pen, and he would have no reason to drop his vesting clause that pays him 17M next season.
LOL, Harvey and Holt are your 4th and 5th starters? Holt who has trouble finding the strikezone and is in the Binghamton bullpen? Stop kidding me. If everything goes well Harvey might be called up after the All Star break in 2012. You are depending on a rookie who won’t be on the team until July to be in your rotation? That’s your plan? You are out of your mind if you think that’s a 95 win team.
OH I see it’s again a SUBSTITUTION of BELIEF in the place of actual fact!
YOU BELIEVE someone is being overpaid (as if your actually going to pay it or that by buying that player you can’t spend more as if there is some Salary cap in the MLB…
And the ONLY reason one is not in our FUTURE plans is becuase YOU TRADED HIM AWAY because you BELIEVE he wasn’t in our future plans!
No Facts just BELIEF!
I believe Jesus was right…I guess all Jews should give up and take my BELIEFS as FACT too right?
Is that what you are trying to say?
I BELIEVE so it must be FACT!
Well sorry I don’t believe what you believe…And all you have managed to do is FORCE your beliefs into fact by acting on THOSE BELIEFS!
When did I ever say that my beliefs were facts? Me saying that KRod being paid 17M a year is overpaying is means that it’s a fact? If so then I can call everything you say as you claiming them to be facts as well.
Are you so devoid of valid arguments that you are stooping to judging people on words that you put in their mouths?
PS. The highest paid relief pitcher is Rivera at $15M. Feel free to tell me KRod is worth more than Rivera.
Can you prove K-Rod was going to get paid 17M? Is he going to get paid 17M now?
ONE FACT used to support down…
Can you prove Beltran had no future here? Was it impossible to resign him?
FACT TWO used to support your argument down…
I didn’t put those words in your mouth you said them freely of your own free will!
YOU BELIEVE what you said was true but it is quite evident that it was not….
“Can you prove K-Rod was going to get paid 17M? Is he going to get paid 17M now?”
Can you prove that K-Rod wasn’t going to get paid 17M if he didn’t get traded? I don’t see why I have to prove it, considering it was my opinion which I supported with well argued evidence whereas you didn’t.
“Can you prove Beltran had no future here? Was it impossible to resign him?”
The fact that he was traded proved that the FO did not view him as having a future with the team.
“I didn’t put those words in your mouth you said them freely of your own free will!”
yes you did, you said that I stated my opinions as if they were facts, which is not evident from I said.
“YOU BELIEVE what you said was true but it is quite evident that it was not….”
Oh, so who’s claiming opinions as facts now?
YES I CAN!
Because he signed a deal to get rid of the option once he got to a team he didn’t NEED to get rid of it!
He would have gotten rid of that option if he was STILL here because it’s in HIS best interests!
His interests is to hit FA AS A CLOSER!!!!!
Like I asked Tag I’ll ask you…
How many 14M set up men can you come up with?
THAT how I can prove he never would have made that 17M!
Because he didn’t want 17 MIL he wanted to be an FA CLOSER!
That’s bull, you didn’t prove anything. What he would have done if he wasn’t traded is impossible to proved definitively unless you talked to the player, the Mets decision makers and they if all told you truthfully.
If you think KRod would get more than 17M on the FA market this offseason, that’s your (very misguided) opinion. You don’t know what his interests are because you don’t know him. Most likely, he’ll wanted to the most money, which means the 17M option for one year and FA the next year is more attractive than trying to get that kind of money this offseason in a loaded market for relief pitchers. Again, you have proven absolutely nothing. You are the one who seems to be asserting his opinions as facts.
“What he would have done if he wasn’t traded is impossible to proved definitively ”
Yet you seem to talk like YOU knew don’t ya?
You know how I know?
Because he had LESS reason to give up the Option to the Brewers than he did for getting rid of it with us…
Because we had ALREADY TRADED him to a team that wasn’t going to use him as a closer!
And got rid of the option just the same!
He WANTED to be a CLOSER! Thats the only reason TO get rid of the option!
SO he could stay a closer!
Since he got rid of it even after it was not worth getting rid of then it’s pretty much a slam dunk it would have been gone if only Sandy had tried!
Yet you seem to talk like YOU knew don’t ya?
Can you read? I said: “I don’t see why I have to prove it, considering it was MY OPINION which I supported with well argued evidence whereas you didn’t.”
“You know how I know?
Because he had LESS reason to give up the Option to the Brewers than he did for getting rid of it with us…
Because we had ALREADY TRADED him to a team that wasn’t going to use him as a closer!
And got rid of the option just the same!
He WANTED to be a CLOSER! Thats the only reason TO get rid of the option!”
You don’t know anything. That’s your speculation on what would have happened. You think he had less reason to get rid of the option with the Brewers than with the Mets. You think he wants to be the closer more than the 17M option. You have no definitive proof because you don’t know him.
What you said as reasons for waiving his option if he wasn’t traded is your own poor assessment of the situation, not fact.
“Yet you seem to talk like YOU knew don’t ya?”
Yes I know! Does the option exist today? Even after it was no longer needed to be gotten rid of?
PROOF my man!
You have to PROVE he would not have gotten rid of it if he was still here and find a reason he would keep it!
Did he WANT to be a setup man? If yes then he keeps it!
If he wanted to remain a closer then he gets rid of it!
Which did K-Rod choose?
What was his WANT?
To be a closer so he would have gotten rid of it with us even FASTER than he got rid of it AFTER the trade because at least with us he would be ASSURED of getting what he REALLY WANTED!
“Yes I know!”
No you don’t, and neither do I. That’s merely what you think vs what I think. Him waiving his option in Milwaukee doesn’t prove what would have happened if he stayed with the Mets.
If he wanted to hit FA this offseason as a closer more than the option year, then why didn’t he waive the option before he got traded? That way he probably would have stayed with the Mets as the closer instead of being a setup man in Milwaukee. I don’t think I’ll need to say anymore except that t agee provided convincing argument on the reasons for the trade and waive of the clause on this thread:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/08/three-things-off-my-chest.html
“No you don’t, and neither do I.”
Sure I do because he got rid of it even after he didn’t need to anymnore the damange was already done!
If he got rid of AFTER he lost what he wanted then he most certainly would have gotten rid of it BEFORE he lost what he wanted!
Sandy didn’t give him the chance!
And Tags argument makes ZERO sense…
In Fact Tag has argued the same move was stupid when Omar did it!
K-Rod got rid of the option even after he didnt’t need to…
Which means he would have DEFINITLY agreed to get rid of it BEFORE he lost the chance to be a closer!
But Sandy traded him off before he could negotiate it away!
No you don’t know, your arguments can’t prove it.
Can you answer this question:
If he wanted to close and enter FA this year, then why didn’t he waive the option before he got traded?
The option didn’t cause Collins to use him differently than all other closers get used one iota and K-Rod was perfectly aware of the situation the Mets were in regarding the option.
Facts are the option wasn’t sold until after he was potentially demoted from closer to set up which also happens to be something we couldn’t do.
Does anyone really think the Mets wouldn’t have LEAPED at the chance to pay 500K to get out from under that 17 M option?
Anyone that thinks they wouldn’t have is dumber than a rock. No way K-Rod was giving up an almost guaranteed 2012 salary of 17 M.
What a pile of horse****.
“If he wanted to close and enter FA this year, then why didn’t he waive the option before he got traded?”
He tried! Sandy traded him before he could!
K-Rod hired Boras to get it done…
You Got proof to prove otherwise? NO!
He DID try! Sandy wasn’t interested!
He being your MONEYBALL HERO!
Saving money isn’t a zero some game. You do realize that the Wilpons are hemmorhaging money, right?
The bigger goal for them is to keep ownership of their team…that goes above and beyond winning this season.
Yeah Prove it!
Where is the money going?
Where did they lose Money? Madoff? Guess again! They MADE MONEY off madoff not lost!
They are going to give back the money they MADE not lose a single cent of their OWN money…
Keep up with current events why don’t you?
You’ll be waiting a whole lot longer than 5 or 6 or 7 years if you go Sally Spending Spree this off-season.
Jessep and Donal said everything I would agree with here.
Few things I wanted to address in Joe D’s commentary though:
“Didn’t we raise ticket prices to help pay for players like Carlos Beltran and Frankie Rodriguez?” – Theoretically yes but we also had to pay for Fred’s Ebbets Field II, and we’ve been paying for that I think more than the players themselves. Cripes, they even raised prices the last year at Shea, and I’m paying less money for better seats now. They’ve been lowering prices and practically giving tickets away for free this year (well, for kids anyway and for already existing seat holders who get vouchers for extra tickets per month). It would not surprise me if tickets were lowered AGAIN this year to accurately reflect the market for Mets games and for the type of team they trot out. With or without Reyes.
“What about that extra $70 million dollars we just skimmed off the payroll, what happens with that?” I’m sorry but didn’t we essentially PAY the Brewers and Giants to take KRod and Beltran respectively off our hands? How did they exactly “skim” payroll? The beauty part is they both come off the books officially in 2012 – the other beauty part is that we got young players in return. Whether they make it to the Mets or traded for a larger part remains to be seen.
“We’ve already waited one year, and yet Mets’ apologists are regrouping along the front lines, readying the troops and trumpeting the new 2012 rallying cry, “Wait’ll 2014″. Really?” On the contrary I’ve seen the lunatic fringe trumping the “2014″ rallying cry to support their theories that the Mets are doomed under Alderson and everyone else.
Fact is, we’ve had a crash and burn philosophy for not only Omar Minaya’s tenure but dating back to the ’90s. Enough is enough. If thinking that I want to wait and see how the mets operate after years and mismanagement and running into the ground makes me an apologist, then keep filling up my Kool Aid glass.
Actually ticket prices were lowered this year.
This article is just so wrong! It was actions like what are suggested here that got the Mets into the problem they have been in the last few years. Other teams have been building their farm teams for years while the Mets, under Omar Minaya, traded away the entire farm! You can’t build championships without a good farm system. Free agency buying rarely has a big enough impact to really matter, especially when there aren’t any good free agents available! The Mets are in the same boat they were in during the early 80s. They need to build up their farm or they will continue to have these fall apart seasons. It took years to build up to ’86 but the Mets did it with their farm! Imagine if the Mets had traded away Gooden and Strawberry before they had made it to the MLB? Thats what this article is advocating because Mets fans are lazy and impatient. You can’t turn a team from garbage to World Champions overnight! Saying its going to take years is just being honest.
the 86 team had a lot of key free agents on it,hernandez,carter weren’t homegrown they were more important than straw and gooden.
Carter was acquired via trade for Hubie Brooks.
yeah i know,carter was.just saying the key components to the 86 mets were NOT homegrown they were acqiured through other means.cater lead the team in hr’s and rbi’s,mex led the team in average,bob ojeda led the team in wins none them were homegrown.
No one says it has to be one way or the other. But, when the go to move is free agents, you end up with mistakes like Jason Bay that hurt you in so many ways a bevy of prospects won’t.
no it will just keep us in the basement for the next 5-7 years
Ya, because we’ve been world beaters before now
and that took like ten years to make a winner.
In Minaya’s defense, there was no farm when he arrived. He did leave it better than he found it.
Kind of a low bar, but still, he did improve it.
I’m not sure exactly what you want them to do though?
What does a team with needs at: 3 Rotation Spots, 4 Bullpen spots, Potentially SS if greed gets in the way, a declining CF and maybe a need at C and 2B do when they
A) Have limited resources in the farm system to trade away
B) Have some $ to spend hypothetically, but the market for talent just isn’t there?
What exactly do we want them to do? I think what every Met fan wants is for us to go steal some players via trade, and that is unlikely. Are you willing to trade Harvey, Wheeler, Familia, Tejada, and other supposed “top prospects”?
If not, then what do you want? We all want them to win. Nobody here wants them to lose. But if the answer is not wait/build the farm and build around a new core of players then WHAT is your answer?
How do you plan to improve on your Catcher, CF and maybe SS while ALSO improving likely 2 of your rotation spots and 4-5 bullpen slots? Plus you have to have faith that Duda can play all year in RF, which nobody knows for sure yet.
Myths:
A) Have limited resources in the farm system to trade away (total BULL!)
B) Have some $ to spend hypothetically, but the market for talent just isn’t there?
Whose on the Market? Pretty much ALL of our guys! Reyes, K-Rod and Beltran!
What they SHOULD have done was try to keep those guys until someone better came along. Then we would have been competitive NEXT year if only the Doctors managed to keep players on the field and didn’think rest was the only reasonable medical procedure available to them!
You see we HAVE all those holes you claim because you RACED to cut payroll and now that you have done that, you are going to claim there is nothing to spend it all on?
Well then what was the rush to cut that payroll? So Freddie could buy a new Porsche?
This is why I have been against your philosophy from the get go!
You have NOT thought it out to it’s conclusion! You made moves but never bothered to think about what the next move after that was and if the move was even warranted in the first place!
And the return you got back (so far only Wheeler at this point) won’t be in play UNTIL 2014 most likely.
I’m sure that when you hear the numbers needed top resign Reyes you will become Scrooge yet again and beg us to let him go for two players that won’t do anything for us until 2015!
We could have just as easily KEPT who we had, Maybe fared better next year with Beltran, Davis and Duda in the heart of the order, And might have picked up two compensatory picks for K-Rod AND/OR Reyes if we could not resign them.
Sign Reyes and your lineup would be…
Reyes SS
Turner/Murphy 2B
Wright 3B
Beltran RF
Davis 1B
Duda LF
Pagan/Neuenhuis/Bay CF
Meaning all we would need is an improvement at the catcher position.
Some help in the Pen and hope that Harvey or Holt can come up and be good SPs.
We would be competing WHILE we were waiting for that FA you scrambled to save money for was available.
But you enacted Phase I of your pan without ever considering who was the target in Phase II, And now that you look there is no one there who fits!
So basically, go into the next season with the same exact lineup they had this season, just another year older? That works.
Duda in LF is a nice idea, but you seem to forget about the 800 pound Canadian gorilla in the room.
Also, signing Beltran is easier said than done. You did hear Boras is asking for five years and $70 million, right? You’d sign Beltran for that money?
It’s better than going into a lineup that is missing Beltran and Reyes isn’t it?
At least the team will compete while it’s rebuilding.
Phillies and Yankees did not PURGE every great player they found to get who they have. they KEPT them DESPITE the fact they were not enough by themselves to win it all.
Rollins and Utley have been there how long before they won a WS?
Did they get rid of them to get players or did they keep them until they found the kids to make those guys worth having?
Bottomline and you can’t deny it is that you DO NOT make your team better by replacing your BEST players with a bunch of MAYBES!
You get it by replacing your WORST players with better ones!
Thats what the Phillies and Yankees did!
Thats what the Braves did!
They kept what was good while the built and drafted aroundthat goodness and when they were done EVERYONE was good and won championships!
If you can’t build WHILE competing then you can’t really build PERIOD!
Because if you can’t draft well your probably also not qualified to trade well either!
The issue is then your evaluation skills not your access to aquire!
Between Rollins and Utley, which one is making over $100 million again? And which one was signed at 34-years-old? Rollins and Utley were young and cheap. Reyes isn’t young anymore, and Beltran is flat out old. And neither will be cheap. It’s nice to say well, the Philles and Yanks kept all their guys, but the Phillies situation was way different, and the Yankees can afford to sign anyone with no qualms. Jeter, Posada and Rivera are not worth their contracts, but they have them because they’re Yankees
jose reyes is 28 years old. he is not young anymore… get jj hardy who’s going to be 30.. go figure, only an idiot like you would make a comment like that, but then again, assuming you, the mets #1 priority is to SIGN CHRIS YOUNG!!
do you even read or get any facts AT ALL before commenting?? you look more dumb by the post bro.. seriously.. i thought donal and jesseP would hold the crown, but you are just shattering records of dumb comments trough the roof
LOL at all of that. Where did I say anything about JJ Hardy? Or that Chris Young was the #1 priority?
XtreemIcon Answer:
I feel the Mets HAVE to sign Chris Young back”
ENOUGH SAID
yeah you wouldn’t want to add the rest of that quote
“Coming off another injury, his contract might even be more friendly then the $1.1 million and he’s got tremendous talent and was built for Citi Field. There are far sexier moves and probably more impactful moves, but who might be available via trade or via declined option is just speculation. I know Young is out there and I know what he can do. That’s just one thing, though.”
Because then it wouldn’t be as fun for Alex68 to post right?
HA
so you kill minaya for signing old guys or ppl who couldn’t stay healthy, YET YOU WANNA SIGN CHRIS YOUNG???!!?? and if alderson does even at 1 million or less he’s a genious right??!?
I don’t know if you don’t get it because you can’t grasp the concept, or if you just refuse to get it or what, but if you can’t see the difference between the 6 years, $40 million and three draft picks it cost Omar to sign Castillo and Alou (not to mention the guaranteed millions to studs like Alex Cora, etc.) and the $1.1 million, one year and nothing against the future to sign a guy who’s actually really good (I know Alou was a good player, none of the others were) then you don’t understand baseball. There’s a huge difference.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH omg Stop, I never laughed so hard…..
You make up LIES and call someone out about facts?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG I need to be excused
That was so friggen funny
Between the two which one is actually WORTH that much?
They are not the ELITE players you guys make them out to be!
They are very good but they are OLDER than Reyes, Wright and Beltran yet you don’t see the Phillies getting rid of them in the name of FUTURE do you?
metsie,
ask that man why the lovefest for guys like rollins, tulo, kimbrell, heyward, freeman, and no love for reyes?? i mean, here’s a guy who spends ZERO dollar going to games and is worry about the financial state of the mets and how much they will spend during the offseason, i mean, is not even your money, you don’t even aport to the team profits and yet you scream bloody murder when talk about reyes values and contract, as if you somehow know what he will make, also, do you by any chance work for sandy alderson or depodesta? i don’t get your enfatuasion with those “know it alls” since you claim reyes has won nothing, well guess what, SANDY, DEPODESTA and RICCARDI aka the moneyballers havent won s*** either, and less for the mets!!! so why the lovefest towards other players from other team and the moneyballers in office.. ?? WHY?
I didn’t say they were elite, you did. Why even bring them up, then?
During Reyes peak, from 2005-2008, Rollins was just as good if not better than Reyes was. Now, Reyes is better, but not healthy enough to stay on the field.
And in 4 years we’ll look at Reyes as we look at Rollins as an aging SS deep in his decline. Only their SS is costing them 8mil while ours could cost us $20mil if some people here had their way
Tell me throug the age of 28 Rollins didn’t have a better and more consistent career than Reyes. Rollins gets what 7.5mil a year?
Utley gets 15mil a year after he signed his extension. If you’re telling me Reyes signs between 7.5 mil and 15mil then I’m on board. It’s when you start talking $100 mil or $20mil a year that I back off, because he’s not worth that.
As for the yankees, they signed those guys because of their legacy. If Reyes was a part of 1 world series with the Mets I would name my 1st kid Jose (boy or girl) let alone 4-5 championships!
The Braves kept Chipper (their “Jose” we’ll say) at 13m a year to keep him around for the new wave of talent. Still, a reasonable amount.
Nobody WANTS Reyes gone. People who are iffy on his future want a reasonable contract for him. One he deserves but one that is good for the franchise.
Giving Jose Reyes 5 years and 14 or 15 mil is FAIR market value and possibly more than fair based on his last 3 years of play.
That’s not saying anything except we want the Mets to make smart financial moves…
And how many games up does being Financially sound get you pray tell?
Rollins isn’t half the player Reyes is if you think he is better ythen thats just proof your off your whack and SHOULD be ignored…
The reason WHY those guys get less money is because they are NOT as great as you make them out to be!
Metsie read what I said before jumping down my throat please? I realize you’re looking for an argument but I said
“Tell me throug the age of 28 Rollins didn’t have a better and more consistent career than Reyes. Rollins gets what 7.5mil a year?”
Go ahead and compare Reyes’ career to this point to Rollins’ career through the same age.
Here’s what you’ll find for Rollins Through 28:
7 Years on Opening Day Roster
3 time all-star
1 gold glove
1 silver slugger
Top 10 total bases 2x
Top 10 doubles 2x
Top 10 hits 4 times
Top 10 Runs Scored 4 times
Top 10 triples 7 times
Top 10 Stolen Bases 6 times
1 League MVP
157 Games played on average
Here’s what you’ll find for Reyes Through 28:
8 years (including 2011)
4 Time All Star
0 Gold Gloves
1 Silver Slugger
Top 10 Total Bases 1 time
Top 10 Doubles 0 times
Top 10 hits 5 times
Top 10 Runs Scored 4 times
Top 10 triples 6 times
Top 10 Stolen Bases 6 times
0 League MVP
119 Games played on average
Now you tell me “Rollins isn’t half the player Reyes” but I look at these 2 resumes and I don’t know, I think they look pretty darn close! So how can you say he isn’t half the player? You’re wrong. And to further prove the point not only are Rollins’ numbers very comparable to Reyes through the age of 28, but Rollins was WAY more reliable and healthy.
And at the end of the day Jimmy Rollins was making 7.5mil, and you’re telling me Reyes is worth how much more?
Isn’t it funny how similar the two of them are yet we look at Jimmy Rollins now as an aging SS? And he’s only 4 years older than Reyes. Imagine what we’d think of Rollins if he was making 20mil for 3 more years
“Go ahead and compare Reyes’ career to this point to Rollins’ career through the same age.”
You forgot one thing….
Reyes is BETTER now isn’t he?
If you have to pick between to two you take Rollins over Reyes?
Please say yes so I don’t have to be bothered telling eveyone how bad your thinking really is…
Rollins has been hurt almost as much as reyes, And whatever he got when he was younger compared to Reyes was because Reyes was still a developing kid!
And in any event you have yet to show how the PHILLIES did what you propose to do, Get rid of their GOOD SS in the name of something 4 years later…
Or did you avoid that subject on purpose?
Metsie: Jose Reyes isn’t 32 years old!!! If he and Rollins were comparable through Rollins’ 28th birthday then why should Reyes get 20mil when Rollins was getting 8?
Through their 28th birthday who was better? You could make a fair argument for either of them, yet only one of them is being talked about as getting 20mil, and the other is looked at as “old” in 4 years.
WOW two posts in an attempt to change the subject…Must have wanted to make sure one worked?
What was the average of the top 10 teams in Payroll in the MLB the year Rollins got his deal…
Whats the avergae of those top 10 teams now?
YES you made one GOOD point Owners spent like virgins in a brothel!
And guys like Jason Werth and Carl Crawford get paid on a par with Alex Rodriguez!
Thats the facts! THATS why reyes is going to get MORE than Rollins because he WAS the BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL right up until the point he got hurt and Rollins NEVER WAS, NEVER WILL BE!
Neither he or Utley are being considered to be traded for the FUTURE!
In fact the Phillies you think are genious in their approach what have they done the last three years?
WHO is a prime candidate to give the guy you think is not AS GOOD as Rollins all that money you don’t want to pay him?
Point is you got rid of GOOD players and LIKED IT!
And what has happened to the team since they left?
You problem is it’s easy to say your playing for the future because by the time it comes you will be long gone so you don’t have to face the music when THAT future becomes the present!
You will simply crawl back into the Moneyball cave!
And speaking of which if you want to know WHY Reyes is going to get that much money you have to look NO FURTHER than you “MONEYBALL FOLLOWING” (Well at least YOU and Donal think so anyway) RedSox who gave Crawford all that money he doesn’t deserve either!
Or the Nationals who WERE used as an example of a team building from within before they went and got Werth for A-Rod type money!
THOSE are the reasons Reyes is going to get more than Rollins and if they had gotten that money BEFORE rollins resigned Phillie would have paid it not traded away their best player for FUTURE!
Metsie: I’d love to see the math that proves your massive inflation theory that Jimmy Rollins making $7.5mil from 06-today is now equal to Crawford making $20mil a year. Man the economy is in GREAT shape with that kind of inflation!
Metsie your lost. You’re looking for reasons to pick a fight. Jose Reyes has averaged 89 games played to this point in his last 3 year span. You’re telling me he’s worth more than Rollins, I’m saying a fair deal is $14m and you’re still picking a fight. Reyes isn’t one of the best players in the sport, he doesn’t play enough to be considered a top flight superstar and you continue to miss the Rollins point.
Through age 28, they were very comparable. You and I look at Rollins today as an old player in decline. Yet in 4 years, Reyes will be that player and Rollins had played MUCH more than Reyes through the age of 28.
Logic dictates that Reyes will not get any better than Rollins has from age 29-32, yet you wanna pay him how much? and for how long?
It has nothing to do with moneyball. It has to do with logic.
No your lost…In 2014!
And Yes I’m saying he is worth more than Rollins.
Through Age 28 they were comparable you say.
Yet the Phillies didn’t ship him off and you WOULD have!
I’m not lost what is lost is your idea of what is ACTUALLY TRUE!
You claim the Phillies know what they are doing then propose the opposite. You say they buiolt from within yet only 4 players on their squad are actually drafted by them the rest are trades for players they COULD have drafted but didn’t! Even PASSED on them when they had the chance to draft them!
You calim MONEY is important, Moneyball WORKS and cite the Red Sox as PRACTITIONERS of your Moneyball ways then lament the high salary you have to pay Reyese BECAUSE of them!
You are so lost on so many fronts and so wrong on so many assesments and BELIEFS yet you still come every day and pontificate this Aesop fable regarding what has made successful teams despite the fact NONE of the teams you cite as an example have ever done EVEN ONE THING you have proposed!
yet you still use them as samples of what YOU propose to do!
You are most definitly lost dude!
Lost in a book that has NEVER worked and trying to FALSELY attribute others success to that failed plan!
Saving money has NEVER won a World Series….NEVER!
Not Oakland and certainly not anyone who has won it in the last 20 years!
Who just spanked our butts today?
What is their Payroll?
What is the Payroll of the Red Sox and Yankees?
Are they using your COST CONSCIOUS Hit the Pawn shop and Buy KMart ways!
NO! NONE OF THEM!
Yet day after day you use them as excuses to implement a plan that failed miserably 10 years ago and has been abandoned by EVERYONE except you!
(And Maybe Donal!)
Rollins career WAR by age 28 = 22
Reyes career WAR by age 28 = 32
it’s not even close
fangraphs
UZR > Totalzone
the difference is because you are counting the season where Rollins played after he turned 28. I’m counting the seasons until he turns 28, which is more fair since Rollins’ birthday is after the season while Reyes’ is during the season, so Rollins has an extra 1/2 a season to work with. You can subtract some value off Reyes for his production after his 28th birthday if you like, but it’s clear Reyes has been the better player.
Rollins WAR by age 28 = 24.1
Reyes WAR is 27.6
Where’d you get your numbers?
I have Rollins’ WAR 24.1 and Reyes 27.6, can you provide link for yours?
According to your counting method, Rollins has 5 months of production after his 28th birthday while Reyes has had 2 months of production since his 28th birthday. Yes 3 months of production is a lot considering it’s 60% of a season.
Wait a minute.
Rollins is 28 during the 2007 season. We’re really counting months and days here to help Reyes’ case?
So Reyes’ 28th birthday was June 11, so that means we have to wait til June 11, 2012? Give me a break.
Nobody compares players of similar age on months/days. That’s absurd.
Rollins was 28 in 2007
Reyes was 28 in 2011.
“haha okay Trufan so I’ll remember that when people say a player is a certain age that we no longer count years, we count days that they have been that age. ”
And we will remember that all of this started because you AVOIDED the subject at hand and ran away from the ONLY thing that truly matters….
AS GOOD as you think Rollins is did the Phillies trade him away or let him go in the name of the FUTURE?
NO!
So guess what if you LIKE what they did then you like the OPPOSITE of what you have been proposing!
PHILLIES DID NOT DO WHAT YOU WANT!
they KEPT their GOOD players and went and built around them not by using those good players and GIFT CERTIFICATES to more lottery chances!
haha okay Trufan so I’ll remember that when people say a player is a certain age that we no longer count years, we count days that they have been that age.
He’s 28 years old! Talk about having fun with numbers
On June 11th the Mets played their 64th game. That’s 40% of the season, which means he spends over half of his time playing the season as a 28 year old. Seriously give me a break.
Jose Reyes is 28 years old during more than half of the 2011 season. Therefore comparing him to Rollins at 28 is very fair.
All you’re doing is finding ways to work around your argument. It’s ridiculous and it’s not how life works
Except you forgot to account for the amount that 7.5-8 Mil per year is in 2012 Dollars!
Which would put him right around Crawford money since Werth and Crawford raised the bar on what a top player gets in FA!
You look at the past but never take into account what has happened SINCE!
Just as you didn’t take into account their win percentage after 5-13 when you started your firesale!
You looked at the past and current Events? Whats that?
Metsie: What are you talking about?
The Phillies did exactly what I want the Mets to do with Reyes. Exactly.
They locked him up to a contract that expires when he is 32 years old. He gets 7.5-8 mil a year and it’s done.
I’ve said I’d be okay if Reyes got 14mil for 5 years which puts him 33 years old!
So why do you keep saying I’m avoiding the subject etc? There it is, write it in your diary. I have said once again what I think the Mets should do with Reyes.
If Reyes wants MORE than that, and MORE years than that then the Mets need to consider moving on. If you’re telling me Jose Reyes wants 20mil/6 years, then adios Jose Reyes, have fun in Washington, DC.
Metsie, what are you making things up right now?
Are you telling me that you think there was LESS money to spend in baseball in 2006/2007 as there is now in 2012? You understand guys like Beltran, Wells etc got their huge contracts when they did because $ was being tossed around like it was nothing?
Owners were spending like FOOLS during that time. The economy is WORSE now, and you’re telling me Rollins’ contract would be Crawford’s now?
You’re lost right now. You’re fishing for ways to make your argument work.
Jose Reyes is a max $14mil player, the higher you go the more of a mistake you make.
I’ve been saying the same thing for the past 2 months, this front office doesn’t care about 2011, 2012 or 2013.. is all about 2014 baby.. CAN’T WAIT!!!!!
is a shame really, ppl, we should get used to the idea of being pathetic for the next 2 years and a half, is no secret alderson waved the white flag, he had no iontentions on helping the 2011 new york mets, therre’s a skeptical reason as to why collins was only hired on a 2 year contract, there’s just too many signs to believe in the 2 more years things will get better here in flushing, but, as long as wheeler keeps throwing very good 5 innings of work we should be optimistic..
Now you know what its like to be a Knicks fan.
lmao.. sorry bro..
That is just an immature way to look at it.
However, this is who you are.
Let’s just say, we had the same front office, do you really think, for one minute we’d be in any better position today?
At least now we ARE in a better position for tomorrow. Go be a Yankees fan, you think you snap your fingers and everything is fixed, it doesnt’ work that way in the real world, you don’t have the heart to be a Mets fan
We are in the crapper now, something has to be done, it’s a process, one clearly you don’t understand.
~ BREAKING NEWS ~
Sandy Alderson was offered Mike Stanton and Josh Johnson of the Marlins for F-Mart and a side of beef. Alderson said no, I have a low iron count.
~ BREAKING NEWS ~
Sandy Alderson was offered Evan Longoria for David Wrong and a box of Just For Men. Alderson said no, I might be going bald but I’m still holding out.
~BREAKING NEWS~
Sandy Alderson was offered Felix Hernandez but balked when the Mariners requested Digital Domain Park.
Come on people…
Guys guys guys….I’m with Joe on this. 2014 is just way to far away. In case you all forgot, we have not made the playoffs since 2006! Sandy Alderson is a master at running teams on a shoe string budget and turning them into winning clubs. Just look at his moves in Paulino, Byrdak, Capuano (for most of the season), Hairston and BEATO! For the most part all of these guys have played very well for us, and they all cost about $5 million total.
HE knows what he is doing, and along with Collins had this club over .500 100 games in this year. He will make some more fringe moves, and maybe a SOME TRADES, in case people forgot it’s not all about free agency.
Alderson is not Minaya, he has a plan. I guarantee his plan to does not call for us being good in 2014, it calls for competitive baseball as early as 2012. Maybe we won’t make the playoffs, but the plan will be to achieve that goal of hurdling the .500 mark and be in the race on September 1st, which is a step in the right direction.
Players such as Jeurys Familia and Matt Harvey, according to ALderson could make their debuts sometime in 2012, since their dominance of AA likely means a start to the 2012 season in AAA. IF they are that close, how is it that we are waiting to until 2014?
yeah those players you mentioned played well for three months, too bad the season is 6 months long.
Sandy Alderson is a master at running teams on a shoe string budget and turning them into winning clubs”
ARE YOU SERIOUS??!??
The Mets will not be financially solvent by 2014 and the facts back me up: drop off in attendance (even less revenue) , losses of at least 60 mil a year, the Madoff suit won’t even get into court until March of 2012 if you sign Reyes and Wright (when his contract is due) and Bay on the payroll, payroll flexibility is limited I don’t see a competitive team unless the Wilpons sell out to Einhorn and he puts his considerable assets behind a major reshuffling of the deck. Do you think the Phillies, Braves, Marins and Nationals will stand pat? Wait until 2014? That is like me saying a hurrican will hit Texas in 2014. I don’t know that and the 2014 date is like my hurricane prediction-it means nothing.
This sums up the last few years and the next few years…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES0AEiLomzo
Hey Joe I am SO GLAD someone finally asked the question about when and where the end of the rainbow was!
Because no one has truly considered that in all thier SUGGESTIONS and PHILISOPHICAL THEORIES around here.
I have tried to get the point accross NUMEROUS times that IF you can not build WHILE keeping your best players then you really can’t build PERIOD!
Because one way or another, If you need to trade away your BEST players to get good ones then you obviously are not good at drafting and will fall flat on your face. And even if you do manage to pick good ones by the time they come to the MLB and SHOW how good they are you will be LONG GONE FIRED for not winning in the 3 or 4 years you have to prove to everyone you belong in charge of Major league franchise!
Thats just the fact of working in NY and while Oakland might get away with crap like that because their owners really didn’t care about winning a WS just budgets that is not going to happen here!
We raced to SAVE MONEY with no place to spend it and the TOP FAs in the market are all guys we have gotten rid of to SAVE MONEY!
IMO it would have been better to resign Beltran (and maybe even K-Rod) for the short term until those Kids we picked in the draft are ready to take their place. And if we didn’t sign K-Rod we could have gotten two picks in compensation which some here have blamed Omar for not doing instead of two PTBNL!
For Sandy’s sake (and I happen to think he is not as dumb as some think) he had better show some competitive team in the next two years or he will be in the same exact place Omar is right now, Being bitched at for something that everyone loved when he did it but fell short and got fired because NY will not wait 4 years for a Championship!
Or consider that Sandy A. was not hired by the Mets but appointed by MLB to respect owners interests. Becasue of Fred Wilpon’s relationship with the MLB commissioner and other owners he is being given a grace period of 3-5yrs to rehabilitate his fiances and THEN field a competitive team.
Oh please more Wilpon is te Devil sentiments?
He was NOT appointed by the MLB and jeff Wilpon was NOT on the grassy Knoll!
Their Finances are NOT bad I guess you haven’t kept up with current events or ignore them because it hurts your argument and hate spewing regarding the Wilpons…
He got hired because he COULD build a teameven if they lost a Billion dollars…
But they didn’t lose a Billion so there is no point in building a team as if the wilpons LOST a Billion!
The “end of the rainbow” is that the Mets will suck for another 3 or 4 years, and by then, if the FO is doing their job right, there will start to be an influx of higher ceiling talent from the minors, a surplus of quality in the minors which can be used to trade, and financial resources to play in free agency to fill the gaps.
If that endgame does not come to fruition, everybody will kill the current FO like we are killing the Omar era now.
Such is the cycle of life.
When you get rid of or et go all of your best players it will suck for a lot longer than just 5 years!
Something lost on the tear it down and start from scratch folks.
exactly,metsie.
I am looking forward to tonight’s game. Another opportunity to write after another loss:
“Such is the life of a 2nd division team.”
I am looking for the bottom… I want the Mets to hit bottom already maybe then fans will wake up and see wahts really going on.
the more we lose the better chance at a higher draft pick we’ll have
Exactly…….. Lets just hope we don’t use our 1st Round pick on a high pitcher who needs tommy-john surgery this time!
What do you mean “the more we lose?” WE ALWAYS LOSE!
metfan lou, yeah, but we can get closer to the top 5 draft pick you know.. as bad as we’ve been that’s all there is left..
So you guys like thumbs I take it?
You mean the “Alex button?”
Wait until my followup to this post entitled, Exit Sand-man. lol jk
Joe – any signs of the earthquake near you?
LifelongMetsFan Said it best with his post of a video of the Mets future…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES0AEiLomzo