24
2011
Three Things Off My Chest
An article by 
There’s really nothing worse than a meaningless September. That’s probably how most fans of other teams feel, but for me a meaningless September in New York right now is about the worst thing you can possibly have.
K-Rod & Beltran
I don’t want to hear excuses about K-Rod or Beltran being traded. I am sorry they had to go, it would have been great if they were a part of a championship team, but the fact is they weren’t. Furthermore, you don’t build the future of your franchise based on a miracle. It’s a nice thought to think that miracles do happen every once in a while, but you can’t plan for them.
Does it bother me that K-Rod dropped his option so fast and thus the Mets lost out on 2 picks potentially? Of course it does. Truth be told, I was over Francisco Rodriguez the day he got in his locker room scuffle, which lead to an injury.
Nobody can tell me that type of player is a “leader” or “good for the clubhouse.” I don’t trust Rodriguez and his agent when they claim they wanted the option dropped with the Mets. I think if that were the case, it could have been dropped in April.
Imagine what a distraction free K-Rod situation could have done on Opening Day? Why wait until the trade deadline is looming? It seems too convenient to be honest. I think he dropped the option for the sole purpose of padding his own wallet and because his future was not in Milwaukee.
Would this team have been better with both of those guys right now? Maybe.
The problem with that theory is that you have no way of proving to me that keeping either or both of them would make Atlanta, St. Louis, San Francisco or Arizona any worse than they are today. Could the Mets be a .500 team right now with Beltran (assuming he didn’t get hurt like he did), who knows. The one thing that should be agreed upon is that Atlanta would not and has not slowed down.
Could it have happened? Absolutely, anything can happen. However, you don’t build a team based on that concept. A football coach doesn’t build his weekly gameplan based on the potential that maybe a hail mary pass will win them the game.
When Beltran was traded, Atlanta was on a 94 win pace. It would have taken an EPIC collapse for not only the Mets to catch Atlanta, but to also keep pace with Arizona or San Francisco. Plus you throw in the Cardinals who were clearly more talented than their 85 win pace at the time.
Since then, Atlanta has IMPROVED their win pace to 97 games! You know when the last time the Mets won 97 games? 2006, so please don’t spin me any stories about Atlanta not being that good. You don’t win 97 games as a fluke.
If you’re asking me would I rather finish 8-12 games behind Atlanta for the wildcard, and keep Beltran and watch him walk out the door or finish 15-20 games behind Atlanta but have a POTENTIAL starting pitching for several years down the road. I’m taking the pitcher and the 15-20 games any day of the week.
If Beltran’s contract included the potential for compensation, then maybe I’d consider thinking about keeping him. However, that was not a possibility because his contract was player friendly.
I don’t like the idea that the Mets HAD to make these two moves, but reality is reality. For me, I faced reality in 2010 when I realized as much as I supported Minaya, he had to go and a new direction had to be designed. You can’t fix the problems of the past by making the same mistakes.
Lucas Duda
Another key component to the Beltran deal is Lucas Duda. Do I think Duda can be an everyday starter in 2012? I honestly have no idea. I think there is a big difference between playing full-time for 3 months over 6 months.
However, I can say with certainty that we’d have NO idea what Duda is capable of had the Mets kept Beltran. When you look at the Beltran trade, consider that not only did they acquire a prospect pitcher, but also they got a good look at what they hope is their right fielder of the future. The experience Duda is gaining now is invaluable to his future as an opening day starter next year.
Jose Reyes
I’m going to go officially on record here, because I don’t want people telling me what I think. I think Jose Reyes is worth $14.25 million a year for 5 years with a 6th as an option with a reasonable buyout. Paying Reyes that amount per year would put him on par with where Wright is right now.
I enjoy watching him play, but the fact remains he is not on the field enough to prove he is worth much more. I’m sorry that his career has turned out this way, but a player at age 28 with leg problems who relies on speed and is averaging 89 games in uniform over the last 3 years is not a $20 million talent.
People like to get on me for the comparison, but comparing Jose Reyes through 2011 to Jimmy Rollins through 2007 is a very fair comparison for Reyes. Just because Rollins is a Phillie, doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good.
Through the 2007 season, Jimmy Rollins was 28 years old and here is his resume:
7 Years on Opening Day Roster
3 time all-star
1 gold glove
1 silver slugger
Top 10 total bases 2x
Top 10 doubles 2x
Top 10 hits 4 times
Top 10 Runs Scored 4 times
Top 10 triples 7 times
Top 10 Stolen Bases 6 times
1 League MVP
Offensive WAR: 19.7
Defensive WAR: 4.4
157 Games played on average
Through the 2011 season, Jose Reyes is 28 years old and here is his resume:
8 years (including 2011)
4 Time All Star
0 Gold Gloves
1 Silver Slugger
Top 10 Total Bases 1 time
Top 10 Doubles 0 times
Top 10 hits 5 times
Top 10 Runs Scored 4 times
Top 10 triples 6 times
Top 10 Stolen Bases 6 times
0 League MVP
Offensive WAR: 24.1
Defensive WAR: 3.6
119 Games played on average
(To be fair to both parties, I did not hold 2003 against Reyes or 2000 against Rollins when they were not with the team at the start of the year)
Now I am not saying Rollins is better than Reyes or Reyes is better than Rollins. I’m saying it is a very fair comparison through similar ages. And the fact remains that you and I look at the Philadelphia roster and we see an aging SS in decline. We’re right.
But, the problem is in 4 years we’ll be saying the same exact thing about Reyes. Rollins is making $8million this year. Think about what we’d say about the same caliber of talent except making twice as much $ for potentially a longer period of time?
I’m not saying let Reyes walk out the door. I am saying if Jose Reyes wants to be a NY Met, then he will be. If his demands are reasonable based on his performance and health, then I have faith that the Mets will make him a fair offer. If Reyes and his agent walk into a meeting expecting the Mets to make a bad financial decision like Washington did with Werth and like Boston did with Crawford, then I expect the Mets to do what is best for the franchise, and not best for Reyes.
It’s as simple as that. For those that want to say $14 million is too little, here the list of position players in 2011 that are making at least $14million:
C: Joe Mauer
1B: Mark Teixera, Todd Helton, Miguel Cabrera, Ryan Howard, Prince Fielder, Justin Morneau, Albert Pujols
2B: Chase Utley
3B: Alex Rodriguez, Aramis Ramirez, David Wright, Adrian Beltre, Chipper Jones
SS: Derek Jeter
IF: Michael Young
OF: Vernon Wells, Carlos Beltran, Carlos Lee, Alfonso Soriano, Torii Hunter, Jason Bay, Ichiro Suzuki, Matt Holliday, Carl Crawford, Kosuke Fukudome, J.D. Drew
It’s not the worst company to be in, and we all know that comparing him to mistake contracts is not in anybody’s best interest. Yes, he’s better than Vernon Wells, but Wells is not a model contract.
If Reyes wants to be here for the next 4-6 years, he’ll have the opportunity to prove it. If he wants to get rich, then we thank you for your service, we’ll collect 2 draft picks and Jose can enjoy walking to the monuments in D.C., or wherever he ends up.
Lastly, a Plan
After the Reyes contract situation is put to bed, I want to know what the plan is. Not only do I want to know what it is from Alderson & Company, but I want the people who stomp their feet wanting a contender right now to tell me how it can be done?
If the Mets plan is really to wait a few more years, I’m fine with that. What do I have to lose? I just want to know. I want somebody to say that they expect my patience to be worth it.
I also want the people that sit and pretend like this team could have won a playoff berth this year, and expect one next year to tell me how. If you refuse to part ways with the likes of Harvey, Mejia, Wheeler, Familia, Tejada etc. then how do you expect to make high impact acquisitions?
If you look at the free agent market for the coming years, you have to see that the answer is just not there. Teams do no re-tool in the free agent market anymore. They fix some holes or get the 1 difference maker that can take them to the next level.
The Mets need a lot more help than free agency can provide. So if the answer is not to be patient, build an adequate system that not only makes the Met fan excited but makes other league executives salivate, then how do you turn a mess into success quickly?
It could be a long and bumpy road, but at the end of the day I am a Mets fan. I’ve realized that farm systems are built in a day, and neither are complete rosters. Minaya got 4 years before anybody was really calling for his head. A lot can happen over the course of 4 years here.
If I need to wait to taste success, well I’ve been waiting this long, what’s another couple of years as long as I think the plan in place is the right one?
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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Good points, I just want consistency!
Excellent article Jessup. Well said.
I’m tired of hearing and talking about K-rod/Beltran. Move on already, geez cant you ever talk about anything else!?
Are you kidding with that garbage, he’s the only one talking? The Hate Sandy Parade will be talking about it for the next 35 years.
K rod did NOT drop his option. He sold it for what he could get (500k? Something like that).
With the mets, it was very valuable, so he was not dropping it for nothing. once he got traded, it became virtually worthless, so he grabbed what he could get.
otherwise, nice rant. And Duda is going to do just fine in a longer stretch. if anything, he will get better, since his issue seemed to be starting slow, until he built up his confidence. Not thinking that is a problem anymore.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2011/07/scott-boras-solves-k-rod-vesting-option-problem
Not dropping it for nothing no…
But dropping it for a shot at being an FA a year earlier (meaning age less of a factor) and paying Boras which is not goingto happen UNTIL K-Rod signs a new contract.
This is the point lost on just about everyone who claims K-Rod would not have dropped the option (despite the fact he did just that!)
Metsie I have been watching you have this discussion for some time now and I just want to ask you a question.
Do you agree that once KRod was traded to the Brewers that vestiog option had little to no chance of vesting with Axford as the Brewers primary closer?
Cause in my opinion that is the crux of many people’s point. His option once traded to the Brewers was not going to be allowed to vest simply because the Brewers had no desire of paying KRod $17M next season and because Axford was the already primary closer for the Brewers their was no obligation to use KRod as a closer. Hence the desire to renegotiate it to at least allow the Brewers to use KRod as the closer if needed without any concern over the option vesting and nothing more. Because in the end KRod was going to be a free agent at the and of this season already due to the option not being allowed to vest which takes us back to explaining why the option was renegotiated.
Plus there would be no issue with the Union with Axford as the closer vs. the Mets all of a sudden no longer allowing Krod to close. Krod knew he had money in the bank if he was on the Mets and when he was traded, that wonderful vesting option disappeared.
“Do you agree that once KRod was traded to the Brewers that vestiog option had little to no chance of vesting with Axford as the Brewers primary closer?”
Yes I agree with that…Now do you agree that K-Rod AND Boras had a vested interest in removing it NO MATTER WHERE they went or if they stayed?
Was Boras going to wait two years to get paid?
Was KRod more concerned about 17 mil for one year or 13-15 mil for three?
WHich is better for everyone on KRod’s side?
GOING FA!
And you do acknowledge that K-Rod did say he would remove the option before he even left? Can we at least get that fact on the books too?
It’s odd to me how we beat up Omar for letting Wagner go and then do the same exact thing for K-Rod when there was an option to get those picks for him by merely putting down a few mill to make the option mutual!
Then the net result was not two PTBNL it was two picks in the draft. PRECISELY the play Jessups whole philosophy suggests!
But he NEVER points that out he just wants the sell off.
People blame the Wilpons for crap like that yet here Jess is supporting it!
Now I’m not calling the K-Rod thing a blunder on Sandy’s record as some would suggest. K-Rod is merely one straw in the camel.
Added to Beltran and the possible refusal to pay Reyes market value is the moves that breaks the Camels back.
If the guy we were talking about was Bay or Turner there would be much less argument because at least those guys are not pivitol bats in the lineup.
But you need to look no further than the Win Pct since Beltran left to see just how much he was a part of our winning ways.
I mean the guy was an All Star and we got ONE PLAYER for him.
One player who may never pitch a single inning for us and might just be another Pelfrey for all we know.
It wasn’t worth it!
If we wanted him we should have packed off three or four kids (kids no none seems to like) to get him!
Thats what the Phillies did! Thats how THEY built!
Ok well then if you agree that the vesting option had little to no chance of vesting then that means that in the end Boras was going to get paid regardless cause KRod was going to be a free agent this off season.
That is all I wanted to touch on with you.
Right you made a KEY point there…
Boras didn’t need to negotiate the Option away once he was traded since K-Rod was not going to vest and be a FA anyway…
YET he did!
But without renegotiating AWAY the option (if he had stayed here) Boras would NOT have gotten paid and KRod would NOT be an FA!
This is what I have tried to get accross to Jessup.
There was MUCH MORE motivation to negotiate away the option when K-Rod was with us than there was once he was traded…
And yet they still negotiated it away after going to a place they didn’t need to get do that fr since he was probably going to be FA no matter what happened to the option.
“There was MUCH MORE motivation to negotiate away the option when K-Rod was with us than there was once he was traded…”
Then why wasn’t it done in March, April, May, June.
Why did he rush to tell the media he “tried” to get the option wiped off by “telling terry collins” yet he was never in a rush to tell the media the very same thing when he was in NY? Doesn’t that seem odd? If he’s willing to give insight to the media AFTER the fact, why wouldn’t he DURING the fact?
Same reason Beltran wasn’t traded in March, April, May, June.
That’s not what I said Metsie.
I said why was the OPTION not discussed earlier in the year? Why all of this suddenly come out from KRod after he was traded?
This is a man that was arrested AT CITI FIELD last year, putting himself ABOVE the franchise. Then getting himself INJURED in the process, which further added to the mockery of our beloved franchise and now because Sandy Alderson is the GM and thinks different than you, we suddenly take the side of KRod?
He told the media AFTER he was traded because it now served his best interest. He had all the chances in the world to tell the NY Media while in uniform that he and his agent will discuss dropping the option. It’s not like he was never asked about his future!
He cared only about himself. He didn’t care about this team that some suddenly beleive he was a leader of in the bullpen, and he didn’t care about you, me, or the future of this club.
Why wasn’t it done?
Because Sandy wanted to see if they actually had a shot at winning this year before he did anything!
Because Kinzer had no reason to negotiate and when asked by K-Rod DIDN:T negotiate…
Because Boras wasn’t the agent until the day before the trade!
Lots of reasons…
The rest of what you said only makes my point…
You are more interested in Saving the Wilpons money and good citizenship and they come before WINNING GAMES!
“Why all of this suddenly come out from KRod after he was traded?”
Excuse me but are you trying to suggest that AFTER he was traded and got to the Brewers he decided to call up his FORMER manager and ask him to get his FORMER GM to get rid of the Option?
Is that how you remember the timeline?
Or are you CONVIENIENTLY REWRITING history to fit your argument?
Well you seem so cocksure he was asked…what was his answer pray tell?
Was it Hell No I’m going for 17M all the way?
Huh? So tell us all what his answer was!
There was no answer? Could it be because no one asked?
Which is why he had to go to Collins and tell him he was willing?
and we just HAVE to believe anything KRod said AFTER the fact. After all, he is such a reputable character.
No Metsie. I’m beginning to think you’re reading what you want to read.
I said I find it terribly convenient that he didn’t mention it at all when he was in NY.
Are you telling me NOT ONCE was he asked by a reporter about staying in NY and his option and you’re telling me he never felt the need to TELL the media about his intentions until AFTER the trade was done?
If it was okay for him to tell the media AFTER the trade happened that he wanted the option dropped, why didn’t he come to the media BEFORE the trade and say the same thing?
Is the option still in play? NO!
Was there a reson to get rid of it? NO!
So yes he apparently was ready to get rid of the option no matter what happened!
And the reason is to be an FA at the end of the year so he can pick where he goes and might generate enough save numbers to keep his stock up now that there is no reason to limit his save opportunities!
PS I don’t know who is thumb downing you but I am giving you those thumbs up just to keep the sane posters viewable!
That is kind of you Metsie I wouldn’t concern myself with voting thumbs up but I do appreciate it.
As long as whomever I am replying to is able to read what I have to say then what some anonymous voter thinks means nothing to me.
I know it’s a useless feature if you ask me….
“And you do acknowledge that K-Rod did say he would remove the option before he even left? Can we at least get that fact on the books too?”
To answer your question on this as I have said in the past I agree that Krod did say he wanted to remove his option but what is not knows is what would it had taken to do so?
I use this saying to describe this. “The Devil is in the details” which is what we don’t know regarding what it would of taken to remove while a Met.
In my opinion I highly doubt it would of taken the same $500k it took with the brewers but that is just my opinion.
Well we kind of got a clue as to what it would have taken now don’t we?
Lets say it took 2 Million…
Is that not worth paying to get two picks if he leaves to FA?
In my world NOT KNOWING is not an invitation to ASSUME.
Sandy didn’t wait to find out what Boras wanted he had already given Kinzer the opportunity but the difference is Kinzer didn’t have the same Motivation to remove the Option that Boras did.
I’m not arguing the validity of these deals one on one I am taking the WHOLE of them in their entirety to task.
KRod on it’s own is a good move, Maybe even Beltran on it’s own is a good move But not if you also intend to lowball Reyes later on in the year.
I would be fine to sell off EITHER ONE alone to get the money to pay Reyes. Thats not what Jessup appears to be doing.
He seems intent on opening up a whol;esale distributorship of Met talent and the arguments he is using this year for Beltran K-Rod and Reyes will soon apply to Wright and Davis and Murphy too!
Because I mean we will be NO CLOSER to a playoffs next year without the guys we JUST traded so whay keep the guys we have yet to trade as well?
It is a self perpetuating spiral downwards and I have tried to get Jessup to COMMIT to a date where the spiral STOPS and we start to KEEP the good players that are left…
Yet everytime I ask him he says he doesn’t know!
Which says to me this isn’t a plan so much as a retreat to being the Pirates and Oakland who haven’t won a WS since they started subscribing to that same plan!
Plans usually have timetables…This plan has none!
And thats the point I am arguing against.
he is going to sell UNTIL something good happens.
Thats not a plan its a dice roll!
You don’t get better by trading your best players for maybes!
I don’t think we got a clue as to what it would have taken Metsie but again that is just me. If you feel otherwise that’s cool I just don’t share your opinion.
Let me ask you this though…knowing what you know now…
What was more important to Boras/K-Rod:
the 17 Mil or the Free Agency?
If it was the FA then who ACTUALLY had the leverage to negotiate with him….Mil or Us?
He was going to be FA at MIL regardless of the option being there.
Not true if he stayed here!
So the truth is he had even MORE reason to get rid of it with us than he had with the Brewers!
All of the proponents of this deal seem to think the 17 Million was what K-Rod wanted…
It wasn’t it was the Free Agency!
I understand that it was in Boras best interest to renegotiate cause Boras doesn’t get paid if he didn’t but In my opinion I simply don’t subscribe to the idea that KRod was going to negotiate away his $17M option with the Mets for anything near what he did with the Brewers.
I don’t know what it would of taken cause neither side has publicly said what it would of taken.
Maybe one day they will make public if there ever was a figure from either side that would of kept him but if there was such a figure from either side it wasn’t enough cause he was in the end traded.
But again they had even LESS reason to get rid of it once they were with the Brewers and gave it up for 500K!
So why would it cost MORE than 500K for us?
Well one side DID say what they woukld take…K_Rod took 500K to get rid of an option he didn’t need to get rid of anymore.
He would have taken LESS to get rid of an Option he NEEDED to get rid of to get FA with us!
You don’t follow that logic?
We had him over the Barrel in regards to his wanting FA status at the end of the year.
Sure he would make 5 more mil NEXT year and have to play on a losing team age another year and lose more than 5 Mil on his 2013 FA worth per year in the proccess. Now he will get close to if not more because his Age is not as much a factor and will get that extra money from his option back GUARANTEED over the life of his new contract!
So why would it cost MORE than 500K for us?
In my opinion Metsie it is due to what I said earlier. In Mil KRod’s option was rendered meaningless so he got what he could only to allow the brewers to use him as a closer more freely if needed. He had no leverage whatsoever.
In NY he had leverage cause he was the closer and the Mets could not just stop him from being the closer for say lack of performance cause he was performing. Any attempt to circumvent the option for fear of it vesting would of been met by legal action by the Player’s Union.
Everyone knew the Mets had no intention of that option vesting and so did KRod’s former and present agent and would in my opinion most likely use that against the Mets to negotiate a better deal.
This along with KRod now switching agents to Boras and the realization that his no-trade list was not submitted and once it was would make trading him even more difficult and Boras publicly stating that if Krod was traded it was to be a closer and not a setup man. Made moving KRod when they did more a priority in my opinion.
In the end Metsie I simply don’t subscribe to the idea that KRod was going to negotiate away his $17M option with the Mets for anything near what he did with the Brewers.
We keep talking about K-Rod having leverage but he had none on either team…
He could either negotiate away the deal, or be stuck on a loser for another year before he could be FA and lose value on a per year basis due to that year.
What was the reason that he would agree to get rid of it once he left?
So he MIGHT remain the closer and get more in FA!
Why would he have gotten rid of it for us?
Because he KNEW he would NOT be a closer wherever we shipped him off to!
Here he stays a closer, gets FA at the end of the year and he is worth more in that market A year younger and STILL a closer making closer money!
After the trade he STILL is not a closer, Agreed to get rid of it so they MIGHT use him as one, And Still get all that FA and Closer money at the end of the year…
We keep talking about K-Rod having leverage but WE had the leverage…
We could ship him to a team that would not use him as a closer or get the option done away with!
it was ALWAYS better for K-Rod no matter what happened to get rid of the Option. BEFORE more than AFTER in fact!
Because the extra money he was due to make in a single season is chump change compared to what a FA CLOSER gets per year that he would lose when he is a year older or a setup man!
This is what no one seems to want to see!
“We keep talking about K-Rod having leverage but he had none on either team…”
I guess we will have to agree to disagree Metsie.
Hopefully one day more will come out on this and we can revisit it then.
It was fun chatting nonetheless.
Have a good one.
The Mets would have to offer him arbitration if the option was dropped. Therefore, if he accepted, Boras gets a new pay day and is guaranteed another new payday for 2013.
Totally different circumstances. Again when you change one thing, all other things do not necessarily stay the same.
In order to get the two #1 draft choices you have to offer arbitration. With K-Rod here as the established closer and no vesting option, just a club option on the table and Wagner coming off a year and a half in which he pitched just 3 innings he absolutely would have declined arbitration, which in fact he did with Boston.
No team is offering arbitration to a closer making a 17 M dollar base salary. The clear move by K-Rod there is to accept arbitration, then, assuming a good 2012 he’d get closer to 20 M.
Even if he had a bad year the least he would make is 14.5 M with a 15% cut and a full year to re establish himself at our expense.
Either way K-Rod picks up between 14.5 – 20 M for one year and THEN hits free agency as a 30 year old elite closer.
The difference between the two is that no way Wagner accepts arbitration and K-Rod would have been crazy not to accept it especially at just 30 and never been hurt, compared to Wagner at 35 to pitch as a set up man for the new closer, K-Rod.
Bottom line with Wagner we get the picks, with K-Rod we don’t.
People that point to K-Rod changing his option with Milwaukee know all that. They know it was completely different circumstances that caused K-Rod to alter that vesting option.
His leverage disappeared, he adapted to the new situation in order to best position himself for 2012 and onward.
Everyone knows that when one thing changes, often times other things do too and that option was great leverage for a long term deal here (1 year 14 M or 3/36?) but that leverage did not exist in Milwaukee because of Axford.
The option was going to vest here and unless Axford got hurt or stopped being effective, that option wasn’t vesting so what K-Rod did was balance the unknown. Axford getting hurt/pitching poorly and keeping the vest intact Vs. K-Rod getting a chance to continue racking up the saves and the consequential thinking about him being one of an elite closer as opposed to a set up man in his now, free agent year.
Everyone knows the difference, some just want to ignore it so they can bash the new GM who’s only been here for 9 months now and can hardly be blamed for us having ZERO (next to Parnell) in the way of capable bull pen arms in the system despite spending SIX 1st-3rd round picks on that very need in 2006 and 2007 and two more #1 picks in 2006 and 2009.
Whether it is intentional by you and a couple of others on this thread, there seems to be some posturing or angling going on here. Could be art of an agenda, but that’s not for me to say. Anyhow, there are common factors to this K-Rod trade that are being ignored here for the purpose of driving an argument that no longer exists.
1. K-Rod wanted the option dropped. This is a fact and it comes straight from K-Rod himself and backed up by Terry Collins.
2. When Paul Kinzer failed to simply got to Alderson and drop the option, K-Rod fired him for trying to make some negotiation out of it. K-Rod simply wanted it cut because he felt it was affecting how Collins was using him.
3. K-Rod replaced Kinzer with Boras. Obviously Boras wanted the option gone as much as K-Rod because Boras would get no commission on the option. Boras wanted K-Rod to be a free agent and did not want to see that option vest.
4. Less than a day after Boras was hired, Alderson was already on the phone trying to unload K-Rod.
5. K-Rod was asked after the Kinzer firing broke about the option and repeated that Alderson had not contacted him about the option and said everyone knows how I feel about that.
6. The day after, K-Rod was traded. There was never and call to Boras to discuss the option and obviously K-Rod got no call either.
7. The Mets paid $6 million dollars to facilitate the trade and will choose 2 PTBNL, none of which will be any of the organizations top prospects. “Not even close” said the Brewers GM.
8. K-Rod was a Type A free agent – it’s an automatic loss of two top draft picks for the Mets – a team desperate for some top level prospects.
7. A few hours after the trade, K-Rod sold his option for $500k because according to MLBPA rules he couldn’t just drop it. There had to be a minimum trade off otherwise it would have been appealed by the MLBPA who does not allow players to delete options or renegotiate deals that ends up in fewer years.
Those are facts. Please replace your speculation with them.
William H,
the mfing CORE salutes you!!! thumbs up in this GOD AWFUL article… all is missing is I <3 ATLANTA BRAVES & MONEYBALL
What is the mfing CORE?
Except for the fact that K-Rod would have ACCEPTED arbitration. Gotten a one year deal at about 14 M. Then what do you do the following year? Offer him arb again? Then he gets like 16 M.
The fact is WITH an established closer he wouldn’t accept because sooner or later he will hit FA but without an established closer he could go year to year, racking up the saves until eventually your priced out and have to let him go for nothing by NOT offering arb and collecting two picks. forget about the fact that the new GM might have some better uses of the 14,16 or however many millions K-Rod would tie up by actually accepting one year deals.
Look what happened to Atlanta when Soriano unexpectedly accepted arbitration. They had to get off him and trade him to Tampa for absolutely nothing.
Boston is probably off Papelbon this year and please don’t try to make a comparison between what Rivera has done for the NYY and K-Rod for the Mets.
K-Rod is showing multiple signs of slipping from his elite closer tag and isn’t worth 14, 16 or 18 M dollar investment annually and I take extreme exception to your point about how Collins was using K-Rod.
K-Rod got every single close opportunity the Mets had and “finished” numerous other games that weren’t save situations as well.
The option did not effect Collins usage of K-Rod in any way shape or form and any speculation that it would have down the road, is just that. Speculation. And with the MLB players Union already monitoring K-Rod’s usage, an almost impossibility that it would have.
The thought that K-Rod would have sold a sure 17 M in 2012 to us for any amount is the highest form of speculation but to think he would have done it for 500K is just laughable.
“Except for the fact that K-Rod would have ACCEPTED arbitration”
You can prove that right?
You KNOW this?
truth is as I said to MNJ KRods main concern was being a CLOSER going into FA!
For that reason alone he would have gotten rid of his option to REMAIN a closer not a setup man going into FA.
How many 14M set up men do you know of?
Count them please!
Why wouldn’t he? 14 M is far more annually than he would have gotten in a multi year deal and at 30 he’s not yet pressed into that “one last big deal” yet.
But he wouldn’t have given up the option with us anyway unless WE were talking multi year deal.
I mean why would he? Guaranteed 17 M and then hit free agency with no chance of us offering arbitration because of the huge base salary, so any suitor doesn’t have to give up their 1st round draft choice.
Perfect situation. Even had the MLBPU policing the whole situation. Couldn’t have been better.
“I mean why would he?”
So he could REMAIN a CLOSER!
How much does a 30 year old Setup man make these days? 15Mil? 17 Mil?
How much does a 31 year old make in FA compared to a 30 year old? MORE? LESS?
You guys just wanted him gone and your making assumptions to support that theory!
There was never a question about him being a closer until he was traded.
He didn’t “sell” the option until after he was traded.
There is no evidence to support the assumption that he would have given up the option unless it was part of a bigger, multi year deal with us. Something that just isn’t worth that kind of investment right now.
We have black holes at catcher, RF (after this year at the time of the trade) 2B, SS (possibly) LF, 3 spots in the rotation and the entire rest of the bullpen.
Having K-Rod with so many black holes to fill is like having Boardwalk when your opponent owns every single other property.
Why did he sell it at all?
Why if he was SO INSISTENT on keeping it just leave it be and hope their closer gets hurt?
Why Sell it?
Because he didn’t care as much about 17 mil as YOU apparently do and wants to be a CLOSER!
We could have stopped using him and made him a setup man anytime we wanted!
What would be the punishment?
17 Mil?
If we made parnell the Closer we could easily say we did it because he is the future and then the Union would have to prove what we did was to avoid the money!
Agendas from Agee, Jessep and Donal. These three individuals are a collection of very interesting frauds on this Met board. They carry a very REAL agenda.
After reading articles, message board posts, and chatroom diatribe, there is something that can be said about them. They all dislike Omar Minaya for their own ugly reason.
Amazing how Sandy Alderson does what Omar Minaya did, and we barely hear a peep from this amazingly comical trio.
There has been a desire and a sticktuitiveness to defend Alderson for getting rid of Beltran, and K-Rod. Jose Reyes should not be paid for a variety of reasons. Then they support their reasons by way of the almighty dollar REGARDLESS if it damages the team or not.
What I find MOST interesting is what happened when I suggested Jason Bay be simply CUT to pave the way for prospects to take over. There was a stark defense for Jason Bay. Why? Shouldn’t he be beheaded like Castillo and Ollie were?
It’s amazing how money was a problem with Castillo and Ollie, but Bay can stay and clog up a spot on the team because he is owed money. Why not just cut him and open up a roster spot for Duda in LF?
I also find it VERY interesting how David Wright is defended by this trio. Why aren’t the Mets shopping him? When I suggested MURPHY should return to his natural position (3B) and Wright should move to 2B (Wright played middle infield growing up), I was nearly beheaded. Didn’t Edgardo Alfonzo sacrifice like a good soldier and move from 2B to 3B for the betterment of the team?
Amazing agendas via each and every one of the aforementioned scenarios, ladies and gentlemen. Makes you wonder what is REALLY going on on this site……
You’re hinting at racism, and not at all well. Castillo and Ollie drained the team for years, bait was cut due to no improvement, poor attitude, and final year of the contract with absolutely no trade possibility. Bay is great in the clubhouse from everything you hear. Do I think that makes it ok, no. However, better than being a malcontent in addition to sucking. Bay also shows a flash for a week orsoat a time that e can still be productive. Maybe he’ll be a decent average player with some consistency. Maybe he’ll keep sucking. In the meantime he has two years after 2011 under contract. He’s here for awhile.
Murphy has shown to be a defensive liability no matter where he is in the field. Wright has been playing third his whole professional career at a gold glove level at times. That switch makes no sense.
Alderson traded K-Rod because that option couldnot be picked up, there are too many holes on the team to tie up that money considering the Madoff situation and it’s possible impact on the payroll for future seasons. Deal with it, it had to happen.
Beltran was not going to be back after this season. Just the way it is. I am a huge fan of his time here with the Mets, he’s up there stat wise as one of the greatest Mets of all time. However, with a contract that does not allow an offer of arbitration Alderson got a potential top of the rotation starter. Considering the potential of Wheeler this was a deal that had to be made. If top talent wasn’t offered, keep Beltran and roll the dice. It was though, trade made.
Jose Reyes is a dynamic player…when he’s on the field. The leg injuries are a huge concern for a guy who relies on his speed. If you don’t like to hear that, I’m sorry it’s the truth. You can’t give a guy who hasn’t shown you in the past few years he can play a full season and is only getting older $20 million a season. Maybe in a wrld where the Madoff scandal wasn’t floating over the franchise. However, with a possibility that payroll may have to drop it’s not good business. If Reyes was healthy and playing 160 games a ear with this production he gets the money in a heartbeat. However, in the real world this ideal situation is a fantasy.
Whether or not Minaya deserved to go is up for debate. He turned the team around. Got us into the playoffs. Bad luck with injuries led to a few disappointing seasons. Ownership went in another direction. That’s life. Obviously the minor league system was not the train wreck people thought while Minaya was around. I’m glad, but that doesn’t change the expectations and results of the past few seasons.
To close, not everything is about race. Alderson is being prudent and evaluating the talent on the team. Don’t kill him before he gets a chance to do his job.
This has nothing to do with race. The agenda is to undermine one GM and support another for whatever reason. Let’s look @ Ollie. What “drain” are we talking about? Ollie went bad in 2009. Bay went bad as soon as he arrived in 2010. The same amount of time. As for Bay being “good” in the clubhouse and Ollie being “bad” this is all speculation. Turning down a request to go to the minors doesn’t rip a team apart. I think you’re being overly ambitious in your assumption. The Met fana were clamoring for Castillo’s removal from the team in year two as well.
The bottom line is Bay is DONE. I don’t believe moving in the fences will help him. The man just can’t hit the heat like he used to. If we’re in rebuild mode, give me one good reason why this man should be on the team.
As for Jose Reyes, unless you can replace Reyes, you don’t let him walk. That does NOT improve the club. And I’m sorry, if you think you can take his money and spread it around on 4 average players, you’re the one that’s not being realistic. Reality states the Wilpons have not lost money to Madoff. They’re worried they have to give it back. Two totally different scenarios.
As for Wright, he switched positions after the Mets drafted him. He learned to play 3B as a Met. To suggest he can’t play 2B is inaccurate. Wright learned the fundamentals for 2B a long time ago. And given the chance to play 3B regularly, I’m sure Murphy could do an adequate job.
I’m not killing Alderson. He’s under orders to shave payroll from the top. I won’t hammer him for K-Rod and Beltran in theory, but I will hammer him for what he took back for them, especially K-Rod. My opinion is he could have received better quality.
Who I am hammering are the aforementioned trio of posters who continuously make themselves out to be Met fans with their own agendas. I believe Jessep dislikes Minaya for whatever reason. I’m not making any accusations. I just see an individual who makes highly IRRATIONAL arguments against players Omar Minaya placed on the team. Only he knows why he acts this way. I will let everyone else pass judgement. Here is what I see. Anyone affiliated with Minaya he thinks needs to go.
Agee thinks he can do a better job than Minaya. He believes he knows why the Mets have not won so he obsessively talks about the Met drafts as if he has the blueprint for success. It’s as anti-Omar as can be. What is his agenda? Again, that’s not up for me to decide. I will allow others make the assessment.
I think they’re not genuine individuals, that’s for sure.
Leverage on what?
His LEVERAGE wasn’t NEEDED once he was traded…He was GOING to get what he wants no matter what there! No REASON to negotiate away the option yet he did…
When he was Here he WANTED that option gone because with it he would not be a free agent and Boras would not get paid!
You guys think K-Rod wanted the 17 Mil? HELL NO he wanted free agency!
And he had no leverage to get it from us!
He got it the second he was traded even without the option removal cause it wouldn’t vest!
he was set!
And if you want PROOF he wanted to be a free Agent more than the 17 Mil just look at how he got rid of the option despite the fact he didn’t need to!
So he could be SURE he was a FA and be sure Boras would get his paycheck in less than two years!
Wrong again Metsie.
His leverage was GONE when he was traded. He wouldn’t even have wanted it to vest if it meant costing him being the closer and hitting free agency as a setup man. It was a strategic move by K-Rod/Borass in order to do whatever they could to keep K-Rod thought of as a closer which is something they had no difficulty doing in NY since there was no credible alternative. Milwaukee had a closer who was doing a good job. With us he WAS the closer. Had we used him in any other role the players union would be all over us. With Milwaukee what could they say? Nothing, that’s what.
And there is no doubt that the most important thing to K-Rod was making sure that Borass got paid. (eyes roll) Yeah, I’m sure that K-Rod hired Borass just to make sure he got a commission.
You really can’t make this **** up.
With us he was the defacto closer, period. Option vests without a question. With Milwaukee he’s not the closer, option doesn’t vest. K-Rod/Borass make the best of the situation in order to ensure he hits the market as a closer, not a set up man so they “sell” the option for 500K.
Do you think Borass would have traded 17M for 2012 for a measly 500K? Do you think K-Rod’s 2012 FA deal is going to be 17M or above? Of course not. That option was pure leverage. Leverage that disappeared the minute he was on a team with an already established closer.
Looking at it any other way than that is just pure spin.
What leverage did he have Tag?
Before or After?
What LEVERAGE did he have? He could get rid of the option and stay a closer or NOT get rid of it and become a setup man…
Either way you slice it the TEAMS had the leverage K-Rod had NONE!
All he had was a no trade clause that had no teams on it so he didn’t even have leverage on that either!
K-Rod had ZERO leverage against us.
He could do nothing about where and how he was used.
Only you and jessup think we were weak enough that K-Rod held the cards here.
Metsie he had a one year deal for 17M sure to vest unless he got hurt. That’s a load of leverage.
Take the 17 M for 2012 and file for FA with no comp due because with a 17M base he was almost assured of getting 20M for 2013.
So, 17 M for 2012 and free agency in 2013 (as a closer) should produce, lets say, the 3/36 he got from us which equals 4/53 M or an average of 13M a year.
Considering he would hit FA without any comp due, due to the huge base salary it would be offered from, that’s an even better situation than he could possibly have invented for himself.
Anyone could be in on him because no one has to give up their #1 pick and with 17 M pocketed in the first year, he can simply pick and chose where he’d like to go regardless of a couple of M here or there.
I’m quite sure that when he was traded, Milwaukee informed him there was no way they could afford to let that option vest and with Axford already doing a great job the MLB players union couldn’t do a damn thing about it.
The option therefore with Milwaukee then became a hindrance, rather than leverage so he dumped it. “Sold” it because of CBA rules against giving up benefits in the hope that he would continue to be used as a closer and therefore subject to a far greater salary when he hit free agency in 2012.
Pure reaction to losing leverage. With Milwaukee that thing wasn’t going to vest AND he would have entered FA as a set up man. Dumping it mean’t the chance to continue to close and FA under both scenarios was just as well assured for 2012 whether he kept it or not.
Pure positioning for free agency in 2012 once he was traded and lost the leverage of the 17 M vesting option.
Quite sure? Is that anything like I BELIEVE?
What reason would he have for getting rid of an option that with one injury could vest if it was really as important to him as you guys make it out to be when he was a met?
Why didn’t he just keep it when he moved?
Did he have 500K in moving expenses he needed the money for?
Or was it just the fact that he knows he LOST his closer job because he didn;’t tget it done before the trade and was so tired of the damn option and so much more concerned about being a closer that he decided being a closer is far better than getting paid 17Mil?
You guys defy logic you really do…
He got rid of it when he DID nOT NEED TO and you make it sound like he NEEDED to once he lost the closer job.
It’s Bull!
Isn’t this like the 4th or 5th “Reyes sucks lets get rid of him” post you’ve written this season? So now youd rather have Rollins instead od Reyes? Wonderful.
Believe that he’s trying to put forth a perspective on the value of Reyes and what he should be offered contract wise vs. just opening up the wallet with no cares to the consequences. Fiscal responsibility.
Maniac: I realize lately you’ve made every attempt to live up to your MMO Name but I’d love for you to somewhere in the Reyes section quote me that would lead you or anybody to believe I am suggesting “Reyes sucks lets get rid of him.”
Did you go to the same school as Alex68? The writer didn’t even come close to saying that, and said the opposite.
You very mature adults sure do make up crap just to keep a stupid argument going.
“There’s really nothing worse than a meaningless September.”
Except maybe a meaningless April which is precisely where your plan is leading us!
You keep saying that keeping your best players would not make us competitive next year…That MAY be true but what you fail to note is that without them we won’t even be close to .500
You talk a lot about the FUTURE…
Please advise us all about WHEN this future is please?
You see the point you keep MAKING is that we will not be competitive (So why Try?) with Beltran and K-Rod so lets MAKE SURE we are not competiive so there is no doubt by getting rid of them!
Being horrible IS one way to build a team…Atlanta and Phillies did that but that method takes 10 years!
It requires sucking for a decade (or more in the case of Atlanta) and drafting well.
You claim your concern is THE MONEY!
But fail to note that the MONEY is an issue because FANS are not going to the games….
Will they be going next year without their biggest starts?
NO so guess what you are CREATING money problems not solving them!
They will lose 50-70 Mil this year and 70-100 Mil next year if we go down the path your leading us!
CitiField will be a ghost town!
And for what? All in the name of 2021?
Please DO TELL when is this future you think you are creating going to be the PRESENT?
And what happens then when guys like Davis and Murphy will be FA and demanding a salary comeasurate with their ability?
Will you trade them off too to get MORE FUTURE?
One team has already tried what you propose…
They NEVER won a WS because they never bothered to keep their BEST players, instead letting them go or trading them off in the name of MONEY!
MONEY is the root of all evil they say and in my opinion your FOCUS on it makes your plan the EVIL FUTURE!
The sad part is here that your UNDEFINED FUTURE is so far away that by the time it fails there won’t BE any Met fans left to all you out on it!
But don’t worry you could always write a book about how successful they were when they were not winning WS titles!
I can’t tell you what you think….But thats mostly because I don’t really see any THOUGHT in what you propose…
Seems to me your just following the MONEYBALL script and we have all seen that movie and know how it ends!
It ends with the team NOT WINNING the big game!
Metsie: Why do people like you pretend as though the Mets and their fans have been living in the Willy Wonka Factory of Baseball where everything is amazing, chocolatey and wonderful? What big game have the Mets won lately? You’re acting like the Mets for the last 10 years have had this amazing plan that has us celebrating in Times Square every November and that changing that plan is the root of all evil.
Wake up.
Your consistent harping on the word Moneyball proves you’re not out for a conversation but merely an argument. Did you complain like this for 10 years? If so, then this is the opposite of that method, so why are you complaining now? And if you supported the last 10 years, it didn’t work. So now what?
By the way, news to me that this Braves team sucked for 10 years as you suggest. This Braves team was built on 3-4 years of careful drafting, trading and developing. The only player on their team that is in uniform based on a long road of failure is Chipper Jones. Funny how they didn’t seem to use Moneyball to be on pace for their 2nd playoff appearance in 2 years.
“Why do people like you pretend as though the Mets and their fans have been living in the Willy Wonka Factory of Baseball where everything is amazing, chocolatey and wonderful? What big game have the Mets won lately?”
I’m not pretending any of that…
Why are YOU pretending that without Beltran, Reyes or K-Rod we will actually CHANGE what you claim?
This is the point you seem to avoid whenever asked…
No one is claiming they were going to win a WS with those guys ALONE….
But None of your moves has made the team BETTER!
You have not made things BETTER just WORSE!
WAKE UP and ANSWER THE QUESTION!
WHEN is this FUTURE you keep flapping about going to arrive?
WITH Beltran, Reyes and K-Rod it could have been in the next two years…
You way it could be 10!
You claim getting RID of players and making the team WORSE is an IMPROVEMENT!
Is it really? Or it is just ENSURING there is no reason to watch so they lose even MORE money so that we HAVE to follow the good book of the holy sepulcur of FUTILITY?
“Why are YOU pretending that without Beltran, Reyes or K-Rod we will actually CHANGE what you claim?” – Beltran was gone in October anyway, and according to you KRod could have dropped the option thus leaving as well. And once again I never said get rid of Reyes. I said make a wise financial move that is good for both sides.
“WHEN is this FUTURE you keep flapping about going to arrive?”
Since you’re yelling I’ll direct you to the last segment of my post. You know the part where I ask to hear what the plan is. I’m not the General Manager, I can’t tell you when the future will arrive. All I can tell you is as a fan and observer, the future is not right now and keeping old highly paid players who don’t want to be here past october does me and this franchise no good down the road.
“WITH Beltran, Reyes and K-Rod it could have been in the next two years…” — Again I don’t get this. Beltran was leaving in October. Thus having no impact on 2012 or 2013, AND you’d keep Duda from getting real big league experience which has a greater impact on 2012 and 2013 than Beltran does. AND you claim KRod would drop the option for NYM so how do he help 2012 or 2013?
“I can’t tell you when the future will arrive. All I can tell you is as a fan and observer, the future is not right now and keeping old highly paid players who don’t want to be here past october does me and this franchise no good down the road. ”
Ahh so your PLAN has no timeline…It’s NEVER ENDING!
And since you don’t seem to know WHEN the future is here you also don’t know WHEN it will be time to keep good players around here!
Which means we will NEVER keep good players around here until the SCRUBS win one out of the clear blue!
Hmmm Sounds like a plan alright…
Sounds like a plan to skip watching baseball until they do something good and then we all come back and rejoice at the surprise because it wasn’t IN the plans!
Are we building a team here or just GIVING UP?
We cant win with good players so lets get rid of them…
Our MAIN concern is how much money we can Save Fred!
Not how many wins we might see in any given season.
Budget trumps baseball under YOUR system!
Anyone else think it’s more important to save Wilpon money than it is to collect the best players you can find and try to win games in every season regardless of the playoff ramifications?
“Beltran was gone in October anyway,”
More ASSumptions put forth as Fact…it would appear to be the key ingredient in your sales pitch.
Were we prohibited from resigning Beltran?
Please explain!
Oh come on Metsie! Now we’re talking about re-signing Beltran? Seriously? Now you’re just being ridiculous and looking for ways to be devil’s advocate
Yep it is possible isn’t it?
Even Sandy floated the idea didn’t he?
lets hope he actually HAS a plan not an idea to implement an organized retreat into the basement that your proposing.
Wow… just wow.
I have been lurking in the shadows for a while and have never posted, but I just couldn’t let this one go. For someone who aligns himself with sabermetric practices, you (jessep) have, in the last few reyes posts, shown to be woefully ignorant to their uses.
As for KRod and Beltran, these were both good trades. I agree with you in the results, if not the reasons.
But your stance on Reyes is so very, very misguided. Lets start with the Rollins comparison. For starters, if you follow sabermetrics at all, you should immediately throw out the following pieces of your argument:
All-star appearances: not very meaningful, influenced by the fans and are incorrectly awarded every single year.
Gold Gloves: Completely meaningless, voted on by baseball writers who routinely give this based on reputation and fame but not actual performance. Who one the AL SS award last year?
Silver Slugger: Again, voted on by baseball writers. I will admit that they get this one correct far more than the gold gloves though.
MVP awards: This one is really bad. First, this shares the same flaws as any award based on writer voting. Second, Rollins didn’t deserve his award in 2007 at all. He was 7th in WAR (he wasn’t even the most valuable on his own team, Utley was 3rd).
Okay, with that out of the way, we are left with counting stats and WAR (which is also a counting stats). The non-WAR counting stats that you selected are valuable, however, WAR is a far better indicator of the players value. So, Reyes WAR is greater than rollins’ in significantly less playing time. Most of the missed playing time was in 2 injury incidents (2004 and 2009). I would give Reyes quite a bit of a bonus over Rollins based on 1) more valuable in fewer games and 2) isolated injury incidents (which make him less of an injury concern going forward than the number of games played would indicate).
Incidentally, Reyes’ combined WAR of 27.7 would be worth 138 million dollars (based on per WAR avg salary of $5 million) for an annual salary of 17.3 million over 8 years. If we throw out 2004, 2010, and 2011 (2011 is far above his career norm), we get a yearly average of 4.68 WAR, worth a yearly salary of 23.4 million.
Will he hit that year average over the next 5 years? I would guess that he probably won’t, but he won’t be far behind. Given the additional value of having a superstar in a position (supplies more roster flexibility) and the additional value that Reyes supplies only to the mets (fan favorite, triples hitter, etc.) I think 20 mil over 5 years would be perfectly fair.
As for the final part of the rollins comparison, during those years, rollins was worth an average annual salary of 15.1 million. Your argument that reyes is not twice as good is correct but you neglect the fact that (not matter how much I hate rollins), he was underpaid for his production.
I left $20 mil + club comparisons alone. That was just ridiculous. Reyes is more valuable than a lot of the people you listed. For the record, I don’t expect for the mets to really compete for a playoff spot in 2012. I expect them to be closer than this year. I also expect the mets to compete in 2013 (not 2014).
For starters SaberMetsFan: I’ve never aligned myself with sabermetrics. Common misconception of my beloved critics. I actually went and threw WAR in just for those folks. I do not, nor have I ever based my opinion on players based on true sabermetrics. The only saber stats I look at are OPS and WHIP which are used by just about everybody in baseball.
Secondly, I’ve asked TWO people who work in the sports agency world both of which do not represent Reyes and both of which work on statistical analysis and valuation of player contracts in an open market.
Neither one would agree with you. While you spit off about his WAR and the value of that particular stat, both mentioned his career OBP, his lack of HR Power, Being at his physical peak in age, and having his greatest asset as the first to go with age AND 2 DL stints with leg problems in his walk year. “Future years will look more like 2010,” is a good quote.
Will I quote them as a source? No. You don’t have to believe me, I have no reason to lie about this and the fact remains we value him more because of the uniform he wears. If he was on another team and the thought of paying him $20mil came up, we’d all balk.
I don’t know what’s more stupid: Comparing Reyes to a player’s age 4 years ago, or complaining about the 4 million a year in salary (difference between 14m per or 18m per). Who the HELL are we getting for 4 million that’s going to improve the team?
OmarFan: So are you suggesting that what sports agents and baseball executives do is stupid?
You see, when making a baseball decision about a players contract worth you have to PROJECT what they will be over the course of that contract. In order to do that, you must find similar talents (or as they call them “comps”).
You project their talent, but also you use similar comps to determine that players market value.
If you’d like to find me a better example of a player that Mets executives can use to project Reyes’ future, I’d love to hear it.
“So are you suggesting that what sports agents and baseball executives do is stupid?”
Hello Earth to Jessup….Factor in that statement with your opinion on Omar PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!
Um, what?
1) The defending champs added nearly all of their clutch playoff hits through free agency last year. I’m tired off people acting like the #1 way teams acquire pieces of their major league club is somehow the wrong way. Every year every team puts out 25 guys, and at least half of those guys played for another club at one point.
2) Out both sides of your mouth you demand a plan, yet demand that those who refuse to accept medoicrity in a big market tell you how to get things done. What precisely do you think the Anti Sandy crowd is mad at? The seeming lack of a plan! A few patchwork injured veterans on teh team? Spending a few extra dollars on picks that are 4-5 years away? Crushing any shot of teh current clubs competitveness with surrender trades? Thats not a plan, thats just saving the company money. Which is what people were afraid Sandy was really brought in to do when they hired him. This club’s 2012 aspects are not improved by the slightest since March. I could accept punting on a year if that weren’t true.
Da Madd:
“The defending champs added nearly all of their clutch playoff hits through free agency last year.” – Again as I stated nobody is BUILDING their team through free agency. Fill holes? Yes. But the Giants also had a luxury of an amazing pitching staff and great bullpen which was not built through free agency. Nobody is walking into the off-season needing upgrades at C, CF, maybe RF, maybe 2B, 3 SP slots and 3-4 RP slots and expecting to BUILD a consistently competitive team.
Beltran is officially on the downward spiral. I don’t think he will play another full year of baseball w/o significant DL stints.
Reyes is the same.
I might retain Wright given his career stats, but man is he disappointing in 2011.
Bay has got to be traded.
If you asked me point blank, I would build the Mets hitting around Duda, Davis, and Murphy.
Right now with better hitting and worse pitching, we seem to resemble those oh-so-memorable 1977, 1978, and 1979 teams. It’s been a miserable four years, and there’s probably going to be a lot more darkness before we see any daylight.
Here is what the Mets plan should be:
Pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching….pitching.
After that, they should really focus on addressing the pitching.
And finally, if time permits, see if they can improve the pitching.
End of plan.
and they can start by dumping Wright for even more pitching and using whatever money you would have paid Wright to keep Reyes. Worry about 3B later.
I love the dump Wright for someone who can’t stay off the DL – that’s genius
Murph can start at 3B. It’s a perfect plan…
Seemed to work for San Fran!
Yeah but they didn’t sell of all their best players to get it did they…They kept what they had and built via the draft which would be a GOOD plan if we had done the same!
Keep the Hitters and get more pitching…Thats what the Phillies have done haven’t they?
They averaged 74 wins 05-08. And waited for their young talent to groom into top tier big league talent. That’s how they did it.
OH you mean they did it like Omar was doing and would have done from 2008-2012 when Harvey, Holt, Turner, davis, murphy, Havens a Nuewnhuis were all supposed to become thier top tier talent?
How Interesting!
I love how you throw Turner in there so subtle, like he was ever part of any plan.
And no…The Giants 05-08 is not like the Mets 08-12. The fact you even think that once again proves how lost in space you are right now
Ok havens…Murphy any name you want…
Tell me did the Yankees trade off Jeter last year? He was hurt more than Beltran was this year!
Keep trying to make anyone who doesn’t buy into moneyball out as crazy!
Cause it just makes YOU look like the loon!
Again Metsie. Derek Jeter is not comparable to any player on the Mets.
The day a Met player who comes through the system plays a significant role in the Mets winning5 championships is the day I suggest they rename Citi Field after them and let them play until they are old and gray
Your right, they are totally different, Jeter is no where NEAR the player Reyes is! He’s more comparable to Beltran, Oh wait beltran is still productive too!
Again you keep making decisions based on BELIEFS, MONEY, HOMERISH EMOTION and PHILOSOPHY, not BASEBALL!
Is jeter worth what he got? NO!
Is he a leader? YES!
So was Beltran!
If what you say is true then why isn’t Posada their starter as well?
He helped them win all those WS you mentioned too no?
Difference is they RESIGNED Jeter and still play him because they DID NOT have a replacement!
Posada they did…
Your just LOOKING for any string of excuse you can pull on to purge the team of all it’s good players!
You will actually be HAPPY when Reyes asks for Market Rate and MONEYBALLING lets him go!
Then Wright will be next (We already put him on waivers didn’t we?)
Funny how I have yet to hear you say dump Bay in a trade to save the money as he is the only one ACTUALLY not worth it!
Not a peep from you on that…
I wonder why?
There’s a lot of people who are against the K-Rod trade who think that it’s a given the Brewers get two draft picks for him. I’m not guaranteeing Milwaukee gets two picks for K-Rod. First, they’d have to offer arbitration. Then he’d have to decline it. We can sit here and wax poetic on what his best payday is, because he can’t make any less than roughly $9.5 next year via arbitration. I’m just saying…he made $12 million a year at 26 after breaking the ML saves record. Does he really think he can make $10 million a year at age 30 after two seasons of obvious decline from a free agent contract? Maybe he can, but I’m not so sure. But I digress…
I’m not convinced Milwaukee would even offer him arbitration. In fact, I’ll bet anyone a shiny penny they don’t. They already have a really good, young, cost controlled closer. Why would they offer K-Rod arbitration on the off-chance he undersdtands the odds against him getting a big contract in free agency? Then they’re on the hook for a $12-$14 million set-up man.
With a closer already in place, I’d bet the Brewers don’t even offer him arbitration, and don’t get any picks when he signs elsewhere. Just my take.
“First, they’d have to offer arbitration. Then he’d have to decline it. ”
Yes X thats a good point…
One lost on the same folks who complain about the Wagner deal we made.
Which is pretty much the SAME EXACT deal as the K-Rod deal they all love because it’s not Omar doing it!
It’s not the same situation at all.
As far removed from the same situation as one could possibly get.
Wagner pitched about 3 innings in a year and a half and had no vesting option and at 35 was looking for one last deal and wasn’t accepting arbitration from us because we HAD a closer. He wasn’t accepting arb to be a set up man. Same situation as K-Rod in Milwaukee, not K-Rod with the Mets.
It’s hard to understand how someone could possibly compare the two situations.
They are as different as night and day.
When you prove K-Rod would not have given up on the Option you can say things were different.
But unfortunatly for you he DID give up on the option because he ALSO wants to be a closer when he becomes a FA….
You act like retaining him for a year after accepting arbitration was going to cost us games…
Just another CHICKEN LITTLE Assumption made by the Moneyballers!
I tell you what I HOPE and PRAY sandy does what you want…
Cause by 2014 when he gets fired we will never have to hear about Oakland or Moneyball or stockpiling picks again because you will all be too embarassed to post your opinions for being exposed as CHEAP A$$ MINOR LEAGUE CENTRIC fools!
Right. He gave up the option when he was threatned with no longer being the closer. Something we couldn’t do. He gave it up after, not before.
Ultimately it WAS about value though. K-Rod was merely an average closer. His success rate with the Mets was 83%. The average MLB closer is 85%. And K-Rod’s came with a real high wire act. He did usually get the job done I cannot say different but a 1.50 WHIP between walks and hits is far from ideal. Five more seeing eye hits and his success ratio is WELL below the average closer regardless of salary.
Kimbrell, Venters and many other guys making minimum. Call it moneyball if you want but it’s really allowing us to fill 2 starting spots in the rotation or get a whole bullpen or maybe even retain Reyes and sign a catcher.
No one can say that K-Rod didn’t live up to his deal from 2009-2011 but he was trending severely average and with as many holes as we have every year why not pay an average MLB salary for an average closer instead of top dollar for an average one and shore up some of our numerous weaknesses?
“He gave up the option when he was threatned with no longer being the closer”
Well if the Brewers could do it so could we!
A fact you seem to forget!
You’re a broken record. The problem with the Wagner deal is he would have declined the arbitration. That was a given. Two supplemental picks or Chris Carter, take your pick. K-Rod would have been here for 17 million in 2012. Which with the current Madoff situation and needs of the team just could not happen. End of story. If he somehow negotiated away the option there’s no saying he would have declined arbitration. His declining skill set may have made the arbitration the best option for him. Sticking the Mets with him for about 15 million for 2012. Not beneicial for the team same as the 17 million. He still has success, but his innings are adventurous and his fastball is losing zip. Are you trying to tell me he’s going to be gettig better after this decline?
Well, for staters,Reyes goes for 20mill easy, maybe $18 if it’s a 7 year contract. The fact is top free agents past 2 years are getting PAID, period. A trend we will have to accept. We either have a plan to rachet the team payroll up to $175 million(not necessarily in all in this offseason) or act like a small market team and hover around .500 and hope for a miracle. I’d happily pay him 5 yrs /$100mill for a couple of reasons. He is still the’face ‘ of the mets(Alderson alluded to keeping handful of core ‘mets’ for a number of years to keep idenity), he’s in his prime, we need to SPEND to be competitive, and , Tejada at21 years old isn’t a bad stopgap for all his injuries(poss JordanV soon too). Unfortunately I think the mets play small mkt until they rebuild the system, I hope I’m wrong..
Beltran.the mets were fun and resilient to watch thru July . Losing Beltran didn’t help but, we got a topnprospect, a look at Duda and whoever else gets a call up in sept, and Beltran not in future plans, im totally fine w trade we weren’t making playoffs.
KRod. As much as his contract suxed, losing him sunk our season left a gapping hole in a weak bullpen. Good bullpens win more games in this league then good starting pitching IMO . The trade suxed, paid his contract and he waives his extension immediately. But Mets didn’t want him so I understand them getting rid of him. My only question is do they replace him next year or play small mkt? Because if they don’t replace him, I wish they kept him altho way overpaid he’s still effective enough closer.
Overall I think too many folks are obsessed w filling all our strting positions w our farm, i like following farm too, it’s rewarding and can be cost effective, but cost effective is only good if you are going to spend money to get best players in league. I want to win and pepper our team w the farm. Ihope Sandy can sign and trade for guys with a plan for the type of team he wants to build. As long as his plan is to actually WIN, not save money and not look smart signing decent guys on the cheap
Explain to me how losing a CLOSER that only comes into a game when the team is winning or maybe tied at home in the 9th made the bullpen worse?
The bullpen sucks because the bullpen sucks, that’s giving some supernatural powers to a guy that wouldn’t have even been in the game.
“The bullpen sucks because the bullpen sucks,…”
And you think the way to fix that is to get rid of the one guy in the pen who was actually effective?
The Bullpen Sucks…Ok What do we do? Hey Boss I know…LETS MAKE IT WORSE!
Hey GREAT plan!
Besides its all about how great Port St Lucie’s team is,the MLB team is just trade fodder to build a great Minor league system!
YOU STILL DON’T GET IT
he comes in when they are WINNING
not LOSING
Closers are important, 1 inning is important. He was our best reliever, by far. Losing him moved everyone up a slot, nodbody quite ready for their role. Like i said above, i beleive bullpens are more important then starters to becoame winning/chnampionship team. Give me a #1 starter and 4 guys that give quality starts and the best bullpen in the league anyday..anyway, losing KROd killed us like him or not ..if it set us up to spend that money this off seaason then fine, the trade is fine, but i have my doubts, that money will go to the Wilpons ..