19
2011
The Mets Have The Worst Bullpen In The Majors
An article by 
So how is everyone enjoying the K-Rod-less bullpen so far? I mean of course you all must have expected some sort of a downgrade in performance after swapping out Rodriguez for Igarashi, but I don’t think anybody could have predicted these dreadful results. The bullpen as a whole has been a virtual catastrophe except for Izzy who may not even be back next season. The Mets went from having one of the better bullpens in the majors, to what is now officially the worst bullpen in the game in August.
What to do, what to do…
As I’ve written previously, I never thought Bobby Parnell or Pedro Beato had the stomach to pitch with the game on the line. It takes more than just stuff to close out games and protect one-run leads in the 8th or 9th innings – you gotta have that killer instinct – that hard edge – that intimidation factor. All the great closers have it, and it’s not something you teach or grow into either.
“We’ll see where we are at the end of the season,” Alderson said. “We do have an internal candidate or two, but I’d say that the options are limited. On the other hand, if you look at the closer market over the last couple of years, it hasn’t been a place where free agents are getting major contracts.”
“There could be a lot of guys out there that are capable potentially and we’ll look to see where the market is. Our bullpen is going to be an important focus for us next season. It needs to be improved, and now without K-Rod, it needs to have someone at the back end of it.”
So we’re back in the market for a closer…
Speaking of K-Rod, we’ll probably get to see him in action this weekend with his new team the Brewers. But in a story that never seems to go away, the NY Post wrote today that an industry source indicated that the Mets and Rodriguez could have worked out a deal to eliminate the option, but that Sandy Alderson orchestrated the trade before giving Scott Boras an opportunity to talk about it.
It also appears now that K-Rod fired his former agent Paul Kinzer because he could not negotiate a deal with the Mets to get rid of that option. The agent may have been milking it for more dough, even though his client just wanted it cut? Anyway, K-Rod replaced him with Boras, but before they could talk about getting rid of the option, the former Mets closer was traded far ahead of the traded deadline for two PTBNL who have still not been named.
Terry Collins is also quoted, echoing what he had said previously regarding K-Rod wanting to just drop the option and said, “One night we got up six and he didn’t get in and he came in that night and said, ‘How do we get rid of this option?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, that’s not my territory.’ ”
Your closer is usually the face of the bullpen… He’s the guy that everybody else on the team counts on when the game is on the line. Terry Collins refers to him as “the horse, that you can go to every night, and 99 percent of the time he shuts you down.”
By the way, at the end of the season K-Rod becomes a Type A free agent. That means after the Brewers offer him arbitration (which K-Rod will certainly reject), then the Brew Crew will get a first round pick from the signing team, plus a sandwich pick for next season’s June Amateur Draft.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
110 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
Recent Comments
- RandomGuy: on The Future Is Here: Six Scoreless In Wheeler’s MLB Debut: Now, just throw down an epic trade...
- sarge69: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: Congrats to Wheeler & Harvey. Haven't been this...
- XtreemIcon: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: His issue has always been his defense....
- RandomGuy: on Mets Acquire Eric Young Jr. For Collin McHugh, DFA Cowgill and Promote Brown: Ok it just seemed like in your...
- RandomGuy: on Wheeler Deals, Mets Sweep Braves In Nightcap, 6-1: The only question is where do we...
Latest From Mets Minors
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1332 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
I think this is one move where Sandy should’ve waited at least until it got closer to the trade deadline. We’ll probably never know the extent of how true it was that K-Rod’s “agents” would have renegotiated his option or if they were dragging feet to gain more leverage to get more money long term. The bottom line is K-Rod, option or not, makes more than Mo Rivera who’s the best this game has ever seen and it makes no sense. Will it bwe hard to find a closer that isn’t as expensive, maybe, but it’s rediculous to have so much of your assets in a guy that pitches 60 innings a year.
Sandy got completely hosed by making the KRod trade, it was terrible from a Mets perspective at the time, and it just continues to get worse. SA played it all wrong and the fans and the team are suffering for it now. This is one time when you should have been patient Mr. Alderson, now you are looking like a real boob.
K-rod does not make more than Mo who is the highest paid closer. And it seems as if K-rod would have dropped the option to negotiate a more reasonable long term salary. I’m not going to judge Sandy on the move to early because no matter what paying 8 figures for one inning of work a day may be bad when obviously this team has more holes. But it just goes to show that the absurd celebration of dumping an all star caliber player due to salary concerns was dumb and unwarranted.
good for the brewers, but as it stood, he would not have become a arb eligible FA with the Mets.
and fine to say they wanted it to “go away”. If that is all they wanted, they could have offered to have it eliminated, meaning he bacame a FA. But, that never seemed to be the plan.
Even without the big option, not like he was going to sign for modest money. And he was not having a great year that made you want to lock him up for another 3.
any – Why would they have locked him up for another 3 years? Had he dropped the option (something we will never know for certain), I offer him arbitration, he refuses it, I get two first round picks, and I never look back.
well, i guess is too late to know, all i know is 10 minutes after he became a brewer he dropped the option, making the trade with the brewer look more AWFUL for this front office.. at least can they name the players they got from the brewers so we know what kinda crap we got in return??
The option wasn’t dropped. Pay attention.
um… yes it was. no extension, no compensation. the option was simply eliminated 2 days after the trade.
Xtreem is correct. The option was not dropped. The option was renegotiated as a mutual option.
“…the Brewers, Rodriguez and new agent Scott Boras renegotiated that deal on Friday, making the option a mutual one, meaning both sides would have to agree for it to be exercised.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110715&content_id=21819284&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
Because the Brewers had a guy racking up saves and game finishes. The Mets had 0 leverage to deal with Rodriguez. He knew his vesting option was hanging over everything the whole season, if he really wanted to get out of it, he could have.
Joe, maybe the Mets wouldn’t have locked him up for three years, but if K-Rod would have certainly declined arbitration to hit the market, something you seem to think would have been inevitable, why would he eliminate a one-year option that would pay him $17.5 million? It doesn’t add up.
“It also appears now that K-Rod fired his former agent Paul Kinzer because he could not negotiate a deal with the Mets to get rid of that option.” In an era and with a team where the slightest shift in the wind becomes headline news, if K-Rod and his agent were working with Alderson to waive the option, why was it never reported? That option was public enemy #1 as far back as the off season, and we hear about it only now, a month after the trade went down? I call shenanigans.
K-Rod was traded to a team where that option was never going to vest, so he tries to save face and “willingly” re-works the option to look good. When the trade went down, I thought it was a win-win for the Mets and Brewers, then Boras worked his brilliant magic, which he’s paid handsomely for, and made it a win-win-win. Don’t think for a second K-Rod put himself at risk re-working his option. It was never going to vest, so he made it mutual. Now Milwaukee can decline, pay him his $3 mil and let hit free agency, which is exactly what would have had happened if no one touched the option clause. If the Mets had traded him to a team that needed him to close, I guarantee that option would still be vesting, not mutual.
This whole idea that the Mets could have had that option re-worked is a whole lot of garbage.
Stop riding the Pro-Alderson/hate Omar Minaya bandwagon.
PAY ATTENTION!
K-Rod is young enough to extract another multi-year deal. If he can waive an option to secure a 3-4 year deal, then it behooves him to do so. Injuries occur, so K-Rod would be a FOOL not to avoid hitting the open market. If he takes the option and God forbid he gets injured, he would severely curtail his ability to snare that 3-4 year deal.
For some reason, everyone here believes Alderson didn’t do anything wrong.
Was he worried that Boras would have asked for the option to be dropped, in order for them to re-negotiate a new deal?
Was he worried about the backlash if word came out the Mets weren’t looking to offer K-Rod any deal in order to slash the budget?
The trade was such a rush, you wonder WHY they couldn’t wait until the deadline for something better than some PTBNL.
So many backwards things here….now pay attention.
“Stop riding the Pro-Alderson/hate Omar Minaya bandwagon.”
Sorry, OMARFAN.
“K-Rod is young enough to extract another multi-year deal.”
He’ll be 30, that’s young enough. If he plays under his option, he’ll hit the market at 31….someone call AARP?
“Injuries occur…If he takes the option and God forbid he gets injured…”
And if he tripped over the mound this season while still under his option, that $17.5 mil would be at risk. Injuries work both ways. You can’t say he should lock up lots of years because he can hurt next year and not think that he should take the payday because he can get hurt tomorrow.
The trade was rushed because K-Rod and/or his agent hadn’t yet supplied the ten teams. In doing so, Alderson didn’t limit his options. Alderson made the trade when he had the best opportunity to do so, not when the decent-at-best player with the absurd contract dictated he do so.
Once again, the free agent market is SAFER than waiting that extra year to become one. It’s a choice between a guaranteed 17 million OR the chance of securing a 3-4 year deal at greater money.
ALL players who have a chance to secure a larger deal would opt out if given the chance. Why should K-Rod be married to this deal if he can secure another one? Again, NOTHING is guaranteed in sports when it comes to health. You take the money when you can. He’s waiting 2 months for free agency instead of 12. If you CAN’T see that OR you don’t want to, then you’re carrying an agenda.
Alderson did NOT make the best move for the Mets. To presume that is insidiously improper. Proof is in the pudding. We received garbage for one of the best closers in the game and we’re suffering with a weak pen who lost their anchor. How did this better the Mets, especially if K-Rod was willing to drop the vesting for a secure deal with the Mets. Oh wait, he never said so, because the media didn’t report it.
Amazing how the OBVIOUS is overlooked here. Players are greedy is what we’re taught, right? Why would K-ROD wait for 2012 to go after another contract? What player does?
CC Sabathia isn’t going to.
A-Rod didn’t!
And if someone pulls Jose Reyes’ name out of their butts, remember Jose was coming off an injury, so his value was not what it is now.
Talk about agendas….SMH
“Once again, the free agent market is SAFER than waiting that extra year to become one. It’s a choice between a guaranteed 17 million OR the chance of securing a 3-4 year deal at greater money.”
That is actually not true. Free agents now are normally players approaching the past or past their prime. You often have to overpay for their services. How is that safe?
“We received garbage for one of the best closers in the game”
One of the best closers in the game who is not good enough to take the job from…. John Axford? Really?
You have the agenda, and it’s obvious because of your handle. $17.5 million is an absurd amount. Injuries can happen any time, so why just waive that option? If the season ended today and K-Rod because a free agent, what kind of deal would he get? 3/$30? Maybe? Sound fair? Maybe even too high, considering he got 3/$36 after breaking the saves record. So let’s assume 3/$30. You’re telling me he couldn’t get a minimum of 2/$12.5 AFTER next season to at worst make it even? You don’t follow baseball. The Red Sox gave Bobby friggin Jenks $6 mil this season. There was more money in it for K-Rod to take the option that would pay him roughly 75% for 2012 than what he’d make via free agency.
After raking in $17.5 mil and having a decent year, he goes and signs for 2/$20 or maybe 3/$27. That’s what would have happen if the Mets had kept him, or hadn’t traded him to a team that didn’t need a closer.
A-Rod opted out and CC likely will because they stood to make MORE money in the future than they’re current contracts would give. Not so for K-Rod. His next season is worth an obscene, inappropriate amount of money, almost twice as much as a free agent contract would offer.
This is preposterous thinking. Had my name been ObamaFan, would I have an agenda on this board? You’re standing there spinning an argument to defend Alderson. YES, 3/42M is more more than 17M. That’s plain as day. 30 is MORE than 17. Health is NOT guaranteed. What’s guaranteed is K-Rod would secure another extended contract. If I’m not mistaken, I believe K-Rod opted out of his deal with the Angels as well.
This spin is pretty humorous, but making you both look childish. Now you’re telling us K-Rod should forego a chance at free agency by a year in order to support some FOOLISH notion that K-Rod’s 17.5 million is better than 3/42M.
Gotta love agendas..LOL
Your wasting your time Omar. If in fact Minaya had presided over these same cricumstances they would have vehemently opposed this deal. It is in fact like you say an agenda. Take for instance jessep, who always says he’s tired of talking about anything critical of Alderson but then never shuts up? What’s that all about?
The agenda driven posters here would have you believe that for some reason K-Rod would never have dropped his option with the Mets, but they have no clue or idea. They pretend to have some imaginary insight into what happened, and pass it off as fact. If Minaya had done this trade, agee would be lamenting daily about how we lost two first round picks. Instead he chooses to pass on this debate because he knows it was a crap trade for us.
Alderson has the Midas Touch for these unobjective posters. At least while I defend Minaya in many instances, I can hold my head up and say objectively that overall he sucked as a GM and was a terrible communicator and organizational leader. You can look back any you will find many comments from me hoping he would get the ax after the season, and I was happy when he did get chopped.
But these posters dont have an objective bone in their body. And they show it everytime they post something. EVERYTIME. I think it was two weeks ago when Wheeler pitched his first game and got roughed up they protested why the news was posted on MMO. Then the same people called Alderson a genius five days later when Wheeler picthed a good game, nobody protested that blog. LOL
They are so transparent you just see right through their agendas and they make no attemt to hide it.
Of course K-Rod opted out of his contract with Anaheim. Because he was going to make more money on the market. Get it? Same with A-Rod. Same with CC. NOT the same with K-Rod this season.
I don’t know where you pulled 3/42 from,but if you think K-Rod’s getting that, you need to stop posting immediately and go pickup my dry cleaning.
K-Rod would make more money had his option been vested, THEN signing a three year deal after 2012 than if he goes on the market this season and signs a four year deal. But the point is moot because through fault of his agent, a team with no need for his services as a closer traded for him. He’s not concerned about injury. Injury has nothing to do with it. It’s all about money. Because he sure as hell didn’t hire Scott Boras as a drinking buddy.
Maniac: Excuse me if I don’t get overwhelmed with laughter by YOU saying WE would be anti-Omar if he made the deal. Why do you constantly pretend like you didn’t hate Omar Minaya?
Sorry, obvious reply-button mistake.
well u can’t say our bullpen is better w/o k-rod,if u think so you are a moron.
I think what Any was trying to get accross is the dropping of the option would have been in conjunction with extending him for some number of years.
Which would mean we would not get the same deal Brewers are going to get in arbitration.
AFAIK The option is still there it’s just that they are using him as a setup man not a closer so the option isn’t ever going to vest. That makes K-Rod a FA and net them those picks.
If we were to get rid of the option it would almost certainly involve an extra year at minimum at a similar price to what he is getting now.
The reason Sandy traded him when he did was merely because they had not submitted the 10 team no trade list to the Mets and traded him before the list was submitted to limit thier trade partners.
Right again, Metsie. The option is still there as mutual, because you can’t just drop options and devalue major league contracts. Just ask A-Rod and the Red Sox about it. Re-working the contract was never an option as long as he was a Met.
yes, that is the case.
he essentially “sold” the option to the brewers for a few $$, since it had become almost worthless.
is this news? good article, but i guess i am in the majority by saying we all saw this coming..
also, “By the way, at the end of the season K-Rod becomes a Type A free agent. That means after the Brewers offer him arbitration (which K-Rod will certainly reject), the Brew Crew will get a first round pick plus a sandwich pick from the signing team for next season’s June Amateur Draft.”
GREAT JOB SANDY ALDERSON.. 2 picks in the 2012 draft, and a bonafide closer/set up to a team who might win it all, all for the price of 2 PTBN later..
I agree – GREAT JOB Sandy Alderson
More moves like this and we will actually become relevant again.
yeah 7 years from now, maybe.
The more information that surfaces the more is seems this was an AWFUL catastrophic bad call by the front office. To go along with their anemic off season this past winter. Good days ahead, sure.
bayonne, again, imo, the worst offseason i’ve seen as a fan, at least we get 1 or 2 decent player to build around the future in bad years, but come on, we got nobody worth mentioning!!!!! all 1 year contracts to “high rewards low risk players”, rule 5 picks.. i mean, is just comical,
The defense rest!!!!!!
You’re such a hypocrite. It’s getting comical.
for a guy that has actually said “the mets must absolutely sign chris young” comical is a short word to describe … stop stalking me and move on from my comments
Don’t flatter yourself. That comment wasn’t directed at you. I don’t have to address how comical you are. You do a fine job of that on your own.
To hell with closers. What teams need are bullpen aces. Guys like Gossage, Stewart, and Eckersley (probably not a coincidence that these guys were good starters as well) who came in whenever they were needed and put out fires. I’d rather have 3 or 4 guys who were reliable than 1 guy who came in when the games more often than not already decided to do nothing but up his market value.
Cincinnati won a World series with 3 good guys in their bullpen.
This whole thing about them needing some kind of toughness because the 9th inning is so important or so difficult is self fulfilling. In the 90s, enough people said it was super important in 9th, the general baseball watching public believed it. And now agents and players are able to cash in on it big time.
Speculation is speculation no matter where it comes from. You can believe the Mets had no chance to get K-Rod to drop the option like the Brewers did, or you can believe the option could have been dropped as K-Rod said he wanted.
All we have to go by is what K-Rod said, what Collins said, and what Alderson said which was that he never spoke to Boras or K-Rod about the option.
A 3-year deal to drop the option is just more pie in the sky speculation and there is no evidence that was ever on the table, and believe me when I tell you I will ask Alderson myself whenever we have our next conference call.
I am also going to try and see if we can get into the visitors clubhouse to ask K-Rod as we are covering tonight’s game at Citi Field and will bring you Terry’s pre and post game press conferences as well as getting in some player interviews if time permits. For some reason I sense an urgency by many to make this K-Rod deal look better than what it really was. Many of the new details that have surfaced since that trade have made me skeptical that this was a good deal for the Mets.
We can speculate all day long and we can all choose a side to speculate for and speculate against, but that doesn’t mean you’re any closer to the truth. I’m making it my misson in the next week or so, to do some digging of my own on this deal and I’m hoping to get some direct quotes from all the parties involved. I hope that that process can begin tonight.
“You can believe the Mets had no chance to get K-Rod to drop the option like the Brewers did, or you can believe the option could have been dropped as K-Rod said he wanted. ”
Except they aren’t created equal. The former requires you to simply look at what actually happened. the latter requires you to believe rumors and theories and post facto statements.
Could the latter have happened? Sure, but given what we actually know, that is not the more likely outcome.
But, you can view it however you want. The problem is somepeople are using at as a way to attack others.
“For some reason I sense an urgency by many to make this K-Rod deal look better than what it really was.”
And vice versa.
“Many of the new details that have surfaced since that trade have made me skeptical that this was a good deal for the Mets. ”
And which of these details has been confirmed?
Yes, we all speculate, especially on a manner like this, shrouded in legal talk and rumors. That does mean all of the speculation is the same. If I speculate the sun will rise tomorrow, your own speculation contradicting it is not equal to mine, mainly because mine has validated evidence behind it. Can something happen that would cause the sun not to rise? Sure. But, are you willing to bet on it?
krod give away, now, who ctually won that trade?? and, is not even close!!!!!!!
brewers might win the championship, let krod go, then get 2 more picks!!!!
wow….
Were the Mets going to win a championship with Rodriguez? No. So whoever does win does not concern me other than hoping its not the Yankees or Phillies.
Is there any actual, you know, proof he was trying to renegotiate a deal in which he had 100% of the leverage? No, just some post facto supposition and claims he talked to a guy who had no authority to make such a deal.
is there any actual proof he wasn’t???
The fact that he didn’t and didn’t even mention it until after he was dealt.
Mr Make facts strikes again!
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/08/back-story-on-k-rod-option-beato-and-parnell-have-struggled.html
I’ve addressed that, repeatedly.
Terry Collins does not negotiate contracts.
Oh, and of course that little bit of info starts with this gem:
“According to two people with knowledge of the events”
Means this story is just a rumor.
yes with your usual made up bull and false assumptions which is how you address most issues you want to subjugate into fitting your fantasy fact world!
So, Terry Collins does negotiate contracts with players?
Changing the subject and avoiding the fact he talked to Sandy right after talking to Terry is not going to help you get out of this!
I’m not changing the subject. My question is central to what you posted.
Does Terry Collins negotiate contracts for the Mets?
“the fact he talked to Sandy right after talking to Terry”
When did that happen?
No your Queston is central to changing the subject from K-Rod was willing to get rid of the option to something else.
Does ANYTHING terry collins does, prove or disprove K-Rod was ready to give up the Option?
NO so it’s not central just more subjegation of conversation that you are so known for doing!
Changing the subject because you don’t want to talk about the FACT and bury it in typical Donal BULL!
My points are directly related to what you claim is the subject.
You claim Rodriguez wanted to renegotiate his deal, but all he did was talk to a guy who had no ability what so ever to do so.
There is no proof he or his agent spoke to Alderson or the Wilpons, the people who actually could
Prove he never talked to Sandy!
Go ahead a prove it!
We have proved he ASKED amd was willing to lose the option…He even lost it when he got where he eventually wound up…
Yet you try and deny he was willing by changing the subject as usual and I see Jessup is right there behind you…
Funny how the TWO MONEYBALL guys are so DESPERATE to make trading K-Rod seem palatable and make him out to be this horrible UNYIELDING player who we needed to get rid of….when all the truth and PROOF is quite the opposite!
Did you listen to the Fox Boradcast yesterday? Quite revealing actually!
They said Boras wanted that Option gone because he wanted K-Rod to be a FA next year so Boras could get paid!
Soory guys but ALL the facts point to the truth being K-Rod was quite willing to get rid of the Option to the point of making it a MUTUAL option!
Which is exactly what it is right now!
For his CURRENT team!
So yet ANOTHER EXCUSE used by the MONEYBALL TWINS as a reason to trade off anyone who was performing well is proved to be totally wrong!
Right Donal and isn’t it incredibly convenient that this came out AFTER he was traded? Where was KRod in telling the media from March-June that he’d drop the option for the Mets. Seems like a PR move to say it after the fact.
Proof his agent met with Alderson…
Proof 2 He fired his agent after the meeting
Proof 3 He got rid of the option with his new team!
Now show us the evidence YOU have and we will weight it to mine….
And like I said it was all laid out on Fox Yesterday…
Thats MORE proof than wither you or Donal have showed all you two have done was ASSUME you have not opfferred one shred of proof that he was NOT WILLING!
Change of Subject….Quite Expected…
Bottomline you WANTED him gone and you will come up with ANY excuse to get it done!
Since the Option one didn’t work out so well we are back to his Family Dispute…
Whatever dude everyone is seeing through this…
Metsie: Prove Beltran didn’t tell Alderson he wanted to stay. Prove Billy Wagner didn’t talk to Omar. You can’t prove things that we don’t have accurate knowledge of. You can only make the best decisions based on logic.
If you’re telling me KRod told Alderson prior to the trade that he wanted to drop the option, then why do I have to prove he didn’t if you can’t prove he did?
It’s he said she said, and it call came out AFTER he was traded to a spot that didn’t best suit his needs. I’m not giving KRod the benefit of the doubt, not after his selfish display last July.
You can beg and yell that we prove it, but at the same time, we can as well. Were you there? No.
I don’t care that they traded KRod. I really don’t. You don’t know what they got for him, do you?
I don’t buy into the fact that suddenly the Mets bullpen stopped being good because KRod was dealt, I believe they stopped being good because of who they are and how old they are.
So if the guarantee was that you clear his salary and not deal with any drama, then I take that deal and move on and be done with it.
Metsie: I don’t think you understand though. I do not care what he said or didn’t say.
The day he punched that man and then got hurt, EVERYBODY wanted him gone. EVERYBODY. I don’t care when or how, I’m glad he was done. He was a waste of $ and a declining pitcher and he’s somebody else’s problem now.
At the end of the day the GUARANTEE was dropping the salary for next year, and getting 2 players back. You don’t know who the players are so you’re weighing the trade value based on no knowledge.
If he wanted the option gone, he would have gone to the media the same way he did AFTER he was traded and said he is willing to drop the option to stay with the Mets in 2011. He didn’t.
He didn’t care WHO he played for just as long as he got to be a free agent. Why in the world are you defending a guy who’s SOLE mission as you claim was to LEAVE the Mets? You think he cared about 2 draft picks?
I don’t care if Alderson, Omar or Santa made the trade. I was happy he was gone, and am tired of seeing people defend him. He did nothing for this team, and he threw away his season last year for selfish and childish reasons. Good riddance.
Is your entire defense based on 2 draft picks? Fine… it sucks that they didn’t get 2 picks, but MAYBE the 2 players they get have more of a realistic chance to help the team within a year? You have no idea. So why scream and pout about it?
K-Rod is gone, he was a waste of $ and he’s off the roster. Move on.
“Prove he never talked to Sandy!”
You can’t prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the person asserting the positive.
But, here, I’ll do your work for you:
From Heyman’s twitter:
“before trading k-rod, the mets and his then-agent paul kinzer spoke briefly about reworking his deal by adding a bi-level mutual option”
That doesn’t mean Rodriguez/Kinzer was the one trying to drop it or that he was going to give the Mets the same deal he gave the Brewers. He had all the leverage.
We don’t know who brought up the mutual option, we don’t know what terms were discussed and we don’t know exactly why Rodriguez went to Boras. people are only assuming its because Kinzer screwed up the contract details.
For all we know, Rodriguez dropped Kinzer because he didn’t submit the no trade list. Then, he hired Boras, who pretty much specializes in holding teams hostage.
That’s my theory. The trade cost K-Rod a chance at $14.5 million. The list may have had Milwaukee on it (or off it, I can’t remember if it was supposed to be a list of teams he would go to, or teams he wouldn’t).
“You can’t prove a negative”
And you can’t disprove all the POSITIVE news reports even Heymans! LOL
“”before trading k-rod, the mets and his then-agent paul kinzer spoke briefly about reworking his deal by adding a bi-level mutual option”"
SO there goes your DENIAL up in SMOKE he DID speak to Alderson!
I at least have presented evidence that they met!
(You just did too!!!!!!!)
You tried to say they didn’t that all he spoke to was Collins!
Point is and FOX said this. Boras makes NO MONEY unless K-Rod signs a new contract.
So it was in Boras’ BEST INTERESTS to get rid of the option so he could rape someone in FA and make his money! He WANTED K-Rod to a CLOSER and a FREE AGENT! Much MORE money for FA Closers than FA Setup men!!!
Neither Boras or K-Rod KNEW the list had never been submitted!
Sandy did!
And he packed him off before Boras realized this and limited his options.
If Kinzer had made the deal he would still be K-Rod Agent but it wasn’t in Kinzer’s interests. He would be giving up his commission on that 17Mil!
Boras however had EVERY reason to get rid of it because if not it would be TWO YEARS before he got a cent and even then it would be far less money offerred in 2013 than he will garner in 2012!
You want to deny all THOSE facts be my guest but it will only prove how you like to see things the way that fit YOUR BELIEFS not REALITY!
Not LOGIC!
Just whatever WARPED story Donal is trying to push on the masses!
X- You think it cost K-Rod 14 Mil? How? Your looking at this on a yearly basis…
How much more does he make getting a mUltiyear deal in 2012 compared to 2013, 2014 and 2015?
You don’t know what would have happened if the Option wasn’t there and K-Rod was able to come in and stop someone in the 8th or 9th that Parnell or Igarashi could not stop.
Of course not, but there is no actual proof Rodriguez was willing to dump the option.
No other than the fact he said he would a month before the trade and that he fired his Agent for playing games instead of negotiating the option away like he asked him to do!
Sorry but the fact that K-Rod was willing to do away with the option IS a FACT!
And if his first agent didn’t play games and just did what K-Rod asked he might still be here for another two years after which WE would have the option of getting those two picks for his Type A status.
The first Agent is what caused the trade to happen. Thats not a knock on Sandy or the trade in any way!
Hiring Boras probably accellerated Sandy making a move. Because he saw an opportunity that would probably have evaporated quickly once Boras got caught up to the situation at hand.
The only fact is that he said he spoke to Collins about getting rid of the option.
There is no reason to believe he would not be willing to get rid of his $17.5M Option but people fail to ask in exchange for what?
Do people really believe he would of done it for the same deal he gave the Brewers?
“The devil is in the details” which is what is missing here. Sure he would renegotiate but for what?
Also While there is speculation as too why he fired his agent I have yet to see KRod say he fired him because he was playing games instead of negotiating the option away.
Well in most cases when you negotiate away vesting options the result is an extra guaranteed year is added at slightly higher than current salary but far below the amount of the vested option.
You get the discount for guaranteeing the money.
And its the mainreason for putting those vesting options into a contract.
Most Vesting options are not meant to ever be paid, They are merely added as an opportunity to negotiate an extention with both sides having some leverage in those negotiations.
The exchange was that he wanted every save opportunity wasnt it? Isnt that why he went to Collins in the first place, or am I missing something?
No he was already getting the Save Opportunities…If he was not the Union would have filed a grievance…
What K-Rod wanted was to get into games where we were tied or behind to try and hold hoping we could get the runs needed. But if we had lost he would have gotten credit for completing the game that was not just a save opportunity.
I think your right Brian. I thought I read a quote where KRod said he spoke to Collins about renegotiating but i may have mispoke.
Here is a point I think people may be glossing over here in regards to K-Rod and his desire to scrap the option…
He went to Collins to ask if there is anyway to get that option dropped because we were playing some inspired FIGHTING baseball…
Murphy called it “GOING TO WAR EVERYDAY” when he talked about his disappointment of getting hurt!
Forget the DEAL, the OPTION the possibility of return for a moment and lets look at the MOTIVATION factor…
K-Rod wanted to win! They ALL were “GOING TO WAR!” which is a significant change of attitude for this team!
What was K-Rod motivation to get rid of the option? He WANTED to get into the game to help us win and saw the Option as PREVENTING him from coming into games we might win if he got into them.
The day he punched out his Father in Law was because he wanted to be called in that game and wasn’t because it wasn’t a save situatuion and the guy who did go in blew the lead and the game!
K-Rod despite all of his issues was a SOLID and HARD COMPETITOR!
At the time of his trade this team eflected that attitude in spades!
No matter what side of the K-Rod trade you fall on we should note that what K-Rod’s motivation was reflective of a greater truth on this team.
They are FIGHTERS not paasively waiting for someone to win the game for them. And that is nothing but GREAT NEWS!
If they had that attitude in 2007 and 2008 people would have a very different opinion of this franchise right now!
I credit Collins with that, Not Sandy, Not any moves that were made.not made…
And Murphy I believe had a big role in making that happen as well!
He may be over aggressive, over exhuberant but you know I’ll take that over the lifeless team we have seen over the last 5 years ANY DAY!
Bottomline K-Rod was ready to give up the option because he caught the fighting fever!
He didn’t have to give away all that money and could have been ALL K-Rod show me the money…
I won’t quibble with the trade especially once Boras was hired…
But I do appluad K-Rod’s motivation for even suggesting we get rid of it in the name of letting him come in more often to win more games for us!
METSIE, THE CORE, SALUTES YOU!!!
“He went to Collins to ask if there is anyway to get that option dropped because we were playing some inspired FIGHTING baseball…”
Collins does not negotiate contracts. What he could have asked Collins is to maybe let Beato and Parnell or Izzi get more chances to finish games or maybe use him in situations earlier in close games. Because that is something Collins could actually do.
But no, now we’re hearing that he went to Collins to ask about renegotiating his deal, which is in no way something Collins could do.
NO but Collins is his direct superior.
If you work for any company you go to your boss to ask for a raise despite the fact the Boss HAS a BOSS who must approve it.
He went to Collins because it is Collins who was forced to keep him out of games he might have put him in if not for the Vesting Option.
He did go to his agent to get it removed and the agent played games.
As a result K-Rod FIRED HIM!
Boras was never even given the chance to try and get it done, K-Rod was gone less than a week after Boras got hired!
From all I’ve read, that’s the most logical conclusion. I was wondering why Kinzer got fired, I didnt know he had tried to negotiate the option and failed when obviously his client wanted it dropped. I dont blame Krod for firing him, and obviously Boras did what Krod wanted all along.
The only thing that no one seems to dispute except for Kinzer who has yet to publicly comment on it last I checked is that there was no submission of the no trade list.
Boras was quoted to say that KRod was never told his no trade list was never submitted by his former agent.
That alone would be sufficient to fire him.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/sports/baseball/rodriguez-drops-option-worth-17-5-million.html
“NO but Collins is his direct superior.”
Who does not negotiate contracts. Agents deal with general managers.
“If you work for any company you go to your boss to ask for a raise despite the fact the Boss HAS a BOSS who must approve it.”
No, most of the time, I go to human resources and the director of my department. My direct supervisor was asked for input, but it was not his decision.
Besides, the situation for professional athletes is different than most people.
“He went to Collins because it is Collins who was forced to keep him out of games he might have put him in if not for the Vesting Option.”
Rodriguez was on pace to have hit that vesting option by now. Otherwise, the Union would have filed a grievance. Remember that visit in Spring Training?
“He did go to his agent to get it removed and the agent played games.
As a result K-Rod FIRED HIM! ”
Unsupported rumors and speculation.
“Boras was never even given the chance to try and get it done, K-Rod was gone less than a week after Boras got hired!”
Yes, because Boras is well known for letting clients walk away from guaranteed huge paydays in exchange for team friendly deals that would likely lessen their cash flow.
Yeah I looked but didn’t see a single piece of proof offered to disprove the facts presented so we will ignore you like we ignore any non thinking doorknob! Until you actually make an argument using some FACT as opposed to your 13 year old assumptions and beliefs!
You want proof players don’t negotiate contracts with managers?
You want proof Rodriguez was on pace to hit the vesting option?
Because you have yet to prove Rodriguez tried to get his vesting option dumped. That would be proof that either he or his agent spoke with Alderson about it.
No I want proof that Sandy and his agent didn’t talk about getting rid of the option!
Got that?
Didn’t think so! Time for you to change the subject again!
So you want us to proof something that can only be proven by he said/she said type talk?
So you’re telling me that YOU believe the Mets operate under “moneyball principles” but at the same time YOU are telling ME that Alderson willingly gave up 2 draft picks?
Maybe he did, but doesn’t that sort of go against everything you accuse them of?
No I don’t think the Mets are operating under Moneyball…
I think all you guys who keep telling everyone how bad Omar was, how bad the team is, how awful the minor leagues are,
WANTS US TO OPERATE under Moneyball!!!
Sandy isn’t that dumb and it will be interesting what you and Tag have to say when the Brewers get two draft picks for K-Rod or goes out and buys a big bat to replace Beltran including possibly Beltran himself!
The Mets are NOT going to operate under moneyball…
And it will be very interesting to see who is PRO/ANTI Aderson/Omar when that fact hits you in the face like a shovel!
Will you take Sandy to task if he does NOT play moneyball and goes and buys like the Yankees?
Will he be the smart guy you think he is because of what you read in that book then?
Man, I hope he goes out and buys like the Yankees (except for Burnett). I also hope he drafts like them, scouts like them and develops players like them.
“No I want proof that Sandy and his agent didn’t talk about getting rid of the option!
Got that?”
That’s not how logic works. Until you prove something actually happened, we must work under the notion it did not.
You can’t as someone to prove a negative.
So, the burden is in fact on the people claiming Rodriguez would have negotiated his deal.
No thats how debate works!!!
You want to say something isn’t true you have to PROVE it isn’t true!
YOU DID NOT DO THAT!
We proved K-Rod said what he said…
Did you disprove it? NO!
LOGICALLY then you lost!
I’m not disputing Rodriguez claims he spoke with Collins.
But that is not proof Rodriguez was willing to renegotiate a deal he had 100% of the leverage in. If he was either him or his agent would have talked to the people who actually could renegotiate deals. Alderson and the Wilpons.
So, until you can get that, we work under the notion that he didn’t.
That’s how logic works.
“But that is not proof Rodriguez was willing to renegotiate a deal he had 100% of the leverage in. ”
You mean the fact he DID is not proof?
Only in your Bizzarro world!
He did not have the leverage with the Brewers. They already have a guy finishing games with them. And he’s well regarded.
So, the union would have no real grievance with Milwaukee.
Rodriguez was the Mets designated closer. If they kept him out of games to avoid the option, he could have had them hammered. And good luck negotiating with anyone after screwing one of your players out of a day.
Not to mention that still means Izzi, Parnell and Beato would be closing games anyway.
Wait, Metsie are you trying to claim Terry Collins is the right person to go to about his contract? Really?
Do you know how to read? Or just ignore the parts you dislike? I said nobody hated Omar more than I did on this site. Did you even read my comment, how are we supposed to take anything you say seriously when you have an obvious reading comprehension problem?
It is if the Contract is affecting how the player is being used by the manager. He is his direct superior in the organization. He asked Terry to try and talk to Sandy about the possibility of meeting to get rid of the option. Terry told Sandy and then set up a meeting with the Agent. The Agent played games and as a result K-Rod fired him!
WHY would he fire him otherwise? Why would he go to ANYONE if he was not HONESTLY interested in doing something with the Option?
Can you answer that?
Can you explain WHY he would even go to Terry if this isn’t something he was truly interested in doing?
The Mistake K-Rod made was in hiring Boras after firing his previous agent. Thats what made Sandy pull the trigger quicker…
I DO NOT blame Sandy for that!
K-Rod might still be here if his first agent didn’t play games and THAT is why he is gone!
Maybe if Sandy had tried to negotiate it away himself there would have been no need for K-Rod to go to Collins!
He went to Collins because he wanted to help us win games!
And you guys try to DENY that fact because it fits your philosophy of getting rid of anyone good and getting kids.
And the deal sounds better if K-Rod is someone better off somewhere else than sounding like the guy who was ready to give away money to STAY and HELP WIN GAMES!
Funny how you guys are ready to give money grubbing UNPROVEN talent Overslot money but when a guy comes and says lets get rid of the option so I can go in and win games he is the bad guy the money grubbing kid is the sunny skies of the future!
haha yeah KRod wanted the option because he wanted to win. Not because he wanted to be able to close for an entire season so his new contract has 30+ saves as a selling point. He wanted to do it for the Mets. Because he proved above all else last July/August that he is a team player. Team first, KRod last right?
Right… give me a break Metsie. He wanted to get rid of the option so he can get a new deal somewhere else.
Can you prove your point?
NO!
WHY? Because he isn’t a closer NOW is he yet he still got rid of the option didn’t he?
Sorry I know the facts make your SELL EVERYONE plan look really bad so you need to make the player seem as BAD AS POSSIBLE so it makes sense to get rid of him under your MONEYBALL philosophy but the truth is everything you tried to say about K-Rod is not true, Just look at what he did for his NEW team!
Of course he re-worked (not get rid of) the option when he wasn’t closing anymore……what good would the vesting option do as a set-up man? It was all to look like a team player for his free agency after punching his kids’ grandfather in the face.
Everything K-Rod did was motivated by his wallet. If he really wanted his option re-worked on the Mets, he would have done more about it than mention it once in passing to the on-field manager.
The facts just the facts? What are you thinking Joe, how dare you present the facts that take away all the professional speculation on this board.
First of all, if K-Rod was as great a closer as some make him out to be, why has finished exactly one game with Milwaukee? Even with no vesting option to worry about. He’s blown two saves in 14 games. Extrapolated over 70 games (his career 162-game average allowing for the time missed for punching his kids’ grandfather), that’s ten blown saves in one season. Seriously……..that’s more than Heilman blew in his worst year as a Met.
Here’s some food for thought, purely speculation…….we know that K-Rod and his agent hadn’t yet submitted the list of ten teams. We also know that K-Rod was traded to a team that didn’t need a closer, therefore the option would not vest. The trade cost K-Rod a chance at $14.5 million. That’s not speculation, that’s unequivocally true. Maybe THAT’S why the agent was fired. He dragged his feet on the list, maybe advising K-Rod to wait a bit to see how bullpens took shape closer to the deadline so he can formulate the list based on teams needs to keep that option open? He took too long and K-Rod ended up losing out on $14.5 million. So the agent got fired. Now he needs an agent that’ll get him some money. Mr. Boras?
It’s speculation, but it’s certainly as credible than any other rumors thrown around.
The list was supposed to be submitted before the start of the season.
So what were they waiting for? Either way, the list and who was or wasn’t on it would have severely limited Alderson’s options, and he struck before he was limited.
And Vinny from down by the deli told me that he talked to his cousin Joe who works on the bathroom detail at Milwaukee stadium that he heard from Uncle Bill that he heard, through the bathroom walls, how K Rod and his agent just confused SA and then sold a bill of goods to the fans and allowed this un-substantiated rumor to percolate so that when Brewers came into town K Rod could look like he was the good guy and Mets didn’t give him a chance or choice!
Actually meant “My Cousin Vinny.”
The one with the two yutes?
What’s a yute?
This got a thumbs down……….I’m just gonna start calling this the “Alex button”
I did make an appeal to the mods that this like dislike thing was something we could definitly do without…
If someone doesn’t like a post then let them respond not hide behind a voting system and make no argument whatsoever…
You know I don’t like peach pie but I shouldn’t just be able to remove it from the store unless i have a damn good argument for doing so!
I don’t even pay attention to that stuff unless someone’s comment gets buried by it. Even then, if it’s someone who usually writes something good, I’ll view it. I remember Coop had one buried that was very well written and had a lot of facts, but opposed one of the Brown Shirts.
I wonder what would happen if we did an IP check on most of the votes. Perhaps patterns would emerge.
That’s why I call it the “Alex button.”
Oh, excuse me, your honor… Two YOUTHS.
“Is it possible, the two DEFENDANTS entered the store…”
I can do this for days.
Another great scene is the following.
Vinny Gambini: You like to renegotiate as you go along, don’t you? Well here’s my counter-offer… do I have to kill you? What if I were just to kick the ever loving s*** out of you?
J.T.: In your dreams.
Vinny Gambini: Oh no no… in reality. If I was to kick the s*** out of you, do I get the money?
J.T.: You kick the s***, out of me.
Vinny Gambini: Yeah.
J.T.: Yeah. you get the money.
One of the best is the biological clock scenes at the cabin.
Yute is youth according to “My Cousin Vinny”
Just trying to bring some levity to the tense, serious, life changing discussion here on MMO!
I do like to re-negotiate as I go along.
I don’t think the Mets bullpen fell apart BECAUSE of the KRod trade, I think they fell apart because the season is 162 games and guys like Beato have not experienced that and really there has been no youth brought through the system to take over in the pen. The pen is taxed, and they would have been with or without Rodriguez.
Also, I am sorry but do we need to go back to the day KRod punched his girlfriends father and then got injured and how everybody and their mother wanted him gone? This idea that some people act as though KRod was a leader or good for the Mets have short, short memories. He harmed the team last year in a selfish way. Leaders don’t do that.
Should Alderson have waited longer into the trade season? I don’t know. I don’t think they would have gotten MORE for him, and I think a lot can be said by people AFTER the fact. He hired Boras for a reason, and frankly I don’t believe that he was willing to decline the option. He had a chance to deal with that in the off-season if he really wanted to get rid of it. He did it because he doesn’t want to play for Milwaukee next year because he wants to be a Closer.
The guy is “so good” that he can’t take the job from John Axford. Did KRod supporters even know who Axford was before this trade? If the Brewers got a guy like Heath Bell at the deadline, who do you think would be closing?
The fact KRod went to Terry Collins and not Alderson just shows me everything was not on the up and up with those negotiations.
I’m frankly tired of the KRod talk. The people that “support him” now likely didn’t last year, and they likely wouldn’t want KRod for $17.5m on the Mets in 2012.
The Mets need to develop a closer, not buy one who is past their prime. Why aren’t people tired of this method? You don’t pay a guy $18million to get 3 outs.
Look at the list of top big league closers. How many were free agent signees? Not many.
Byrdak didn’t lose steam because KRod was traded, he’s 37 years old
Izzy is 38 and has pitched in more games since 2007
Acosta is failing because he’s Manny Acosta
Beato is pitching in his 1st big league season, he was a Rule 5 pick for a reason. It’s not always gonna be May.
Bobby Parnell throws hard, but straight. KRod doesn’t impact that
The bottom line is the bullpen consists of Byrdak, Izzy, Igarashi, Carrasco, Acosta who are all 30+. It’s a long season, and players break down.
I don’t wanna read responses that they are failing because of KRod not being on the team. They are failing because of who they are.
Rather than focus on a declining overpriced reliever how about we focus on what the actual problem is? Is the problem we don’t have enough $18 million relievers? Of course not.
San Fran, Atlanta, San Diego, Philadelphia, Florida
Those teams have the Top 5 bullpen ERA’s in the league. Now, lets put aside whether we like ERA as a measuring tool. I think this at least gives you an IDEA of who is doing it right in the pen.
The Giants develop Brian Wilson and Sergio Romo. They make SMALL acquisitions that seem insignificant to bring in guys like Lopez, Ramirez and Affeldt. They don’t go signing high priced relievers, or acquiring older players. The point is they don’t wait to see who is out there, they go out and get them or develop them.
The Braves, find me a better young bullpen than Kimbrel, O’Flaherty, Venters in baseball? Plus they have Christian Martinez. 4 arms in the pen, that are young, and developed through their system or grabbed via waivers and further developed.
The Padres had Mike Adams who they grabbed at a younger age, Gregerson was acquired in a trade for Khalil Greene, Heath Bell we all know about, and Ernesto Frieri is their guy
the Phillies lose Lidge and it isn’t the end of their season because they have arms they can bring in that can contribute. Herndon, Stutues, Bastardo, Kendrick.
Look at the Marlins bullpen. It’s a who’s who of small trades, and now they see success in the pen.
The point is you don’t build your entire bullpen through free agency. You build it through your farm system and or through small trades by scouting other teams and finding a match for what you need.
This constant need to go shopping at the winter meetings for 4-5 relievers doesn’t work. It has nothing to do with KRod being traded, and everything to do with the talent on the roster and the talent in the farm ready to contribute.
Bastardo is sick.