9
2011
Scary Stuff: Mets 2012 Rotation Set For Next Season?
An article by 
Gonna make this short, and not too sweet…
Just came across this article from David Lennon of Newsday who looks ahead to the 2012 Mets rotation.
The Mets have four members of the rotation on pace to make close to 30 starts, with Dillon Gee – the replacement for Young – trailing slightly. There’s value in that as well. Just ask the Braves, who had to scratch Jair Jurrjens (12-4, 2.63 ERA) from Sunday’s start and put him on the DL with a right knee strain.
That’s why Alderson isn’t targeting that area for a major upgrade this offseason, with the plan of investing those resources elsewhere.
Huh, what was that last part?????
Am I supposed to be over-joyed with the fact that the New York Mets will get 150 starts from five pitchers in a starting rotation that has pitched barely well enough to keep us at or near .500 this season? Is that what we’ve been reduced to?
And they’ve managed to do that even with the Mets featuring three of the best hitters in the National League for the most of this season.
It seems Alderson is quite content with his rotation and had these pearls of wisdom to offer:
“Right now, except for some concern about the depth of our rotation, it’s a fairly solid part of the team,” Alderson said. “The bullpen is probably our bigger concern. With the rotation, we don’t have guys that have been dominant per se. But they’ve pitched well, they’ve pitched consistently, and for the most part, kept us in ballgames.”
Wow, so let me get this straight…
There’s a strong possibility that Mike Pelfrey will be the Opening Day starter again in 2012?
Ok, got it.
Some of you might be thinking, well that’s not so bad considering all things, and I would argue YES IT IS!
My plan for the rotation?
Keep Jon Niese and Dillon Gee and blow the rest of it up and make sure Pelfrey is the first one to go.
As for Johan Santana, I’m not counting my chickens with him until I see him get back on a mound and missing baseball bats with his changeup again. If Johan can’t do that, that 89-90 MPH fastball he’s packing, is going to look like an oversized beach-ball to major league hitters whose eyes will be as big as saucers.
Wow, where in the world will I get the pizazz to look forward to a 2012 rotation that looks exactly like the 2011 rotation?
Somebody please pass me a Samuel Adams.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Well if you factor in Harvey and Holt as possible mid season call ups in 2012 he isn’t completely off base.
Mejia could also be a possibility but a long shot as he is coming off a tough injury.
Oh wait none of them are listed on Baseball America’s list so they must suck beans…
Well Harvey is, Brad Holt isn’t and won’t even be on the 40 so if someone wants him their welcome to him and Mejia isn’t elidgeable since he was up here already.
The rotation has been serviceable. No reason to spend tens-to-hundreds of millions on Type A FAs. So, Sandy appears to be saying that he has larger issues than the rotation, especially when you consider that Harvey, Familia, Wheeler, Mejia & company are not too far removed from Citi Field.
Alderson appears to be saying, correctly, that the bullpen should receive more attention. Not a bad concept, but what the heck was Alderson thinking when he didn’t resign Takahashi, who wanted to remain a Met? That will always stick in my craw because Taka could spot start, provide middle relief and was 8-for-8 as a closer AND he is a lefty!!! Alderson’s failure to re-sign Takahashi really, really bothers me.
I’m not too confidant in Capuano as he appears to impload the third time through an opponent’s line-up. Niese, Gee & Dickey have been fine for the most part. Santana and Pelfrey remain the largest question marks.
I could see a package that included Pelfrey & Murphy as trade-bait for upper eschelon AL talent.
So, who do they bring in? They can’t just throw Schwinden and Familia out there because then they have no depth in Buffalo in case something goes wrong. There isn’t a lot in free agency unless you want to try a bidding war between the Yankees and Red Sox and who knows who else for Sabathia (who doesn’t want to play on the East Coast or for an NL team).
The reality is, we have a staff full of #3 starters, even with Santana, but there is little way to improve that for Opening Day next year. Focus on the pen and bench and keep developing the farm.
Vu Darvish?
You just can’t take broad comments by a GM that literally. Or treat any of the writers, including Lennon, as some kind of gospel.
reading between the lines, he seems to be saying that the rotation has been basically serviceable (true) and that there are other areas of the team that are a bigger concern (also true IMO). And that they aren’t likely to go diving into the deep end of the FA pool for a big name guy (are there even any projected to be available?), which is certainly reasonable to assume!
But, that does not mean he plans to do nothing, or does not want to do anything, to upgrade the rotation. Gee, Neise and Dickey are certainly likely to be back, based on contract status.
beyond that, who knows? They certainly could be shopping Pelf. Capuano is not even under contract or team control for next year. No idea if Johan comes back.
I personally would be suprised if there was not at least 1 new face in the rotation (not including Santana), and it likely comes via a trade.
I don’t think that the description “fairly solid” ties Sandy down to anything.
[...] MetsMerized fears the Mets’ rotation is already set for next year. [...]
I don’t think counting in Dickey is really a great idea, and certainly I think the same about Pelfrey.
I don’t mind Capuano as a #5 starter, nor should you.
The problem is really the #1 and #2 slots.
Niese-3 Gee-4 Capuano-5 is perfectly acceptable.
But you say you want to blow it up, what do you do? #1 and even #2 starters aren’t really being traded away, and there certainly are not many options in free agency.
If the free agent market was flooded with 27 year old legit starters, you wouldn’t see that comment from Alderson.
For a 27 year old to hit the FA market he’s have to be up here at 20. That happens once a generation unless the pitcher gets locked up, the it’s once every two generations. Not something you can count on.
Oh, please!
Nothing is set for 2012, save maybe the calendar dates.
Agree with those who want Niese and Dickey back. Not sure about Gee, but he’s inexpensive. Pelfrey’s too inconsistent and I suggest using “his” (and others’ money) to sign C. J. Wilson. Capuano can be a backup starter (if Santana doesn’t make it back), swingman in the pen, and/or a LH reliever.
Wilson is going to be really expensive and probably going to land himself a long term deal. If this team were a starting pitcher away from being a legit contender, I’d say try it out, but that is not the situation.
Plus Wilson is a Type A free agent
Forget the type A’s.
Good point. I know agree, except if the Mets’ final record is so bad that they don’t lose their #1 pick.
*now*
well, i see dickey, gee, pelfrey, niese and santana.. baring a major trade (doubt it’ll happen) the rotation IS pretty much set.. probably pick up a few low risk high reward guys who can maybe, help kinda like capuano.. other than that, 2014 is the year where we may see our crop of pitchers probably be up here..
wHAT I FIND MOST DISTURBING IS THIS CONTINUED SHORTSIGHTEDNESS BY US FANS, ’12 LIKE ’11 IS MOST LIKELY ANOTHER “INVESTMENT” YEAR AS THE WAY I’M READING ALDERSON IS HE’S FOCUSED MORE ON “DOMINATION ON A BUDGET” COME 2014 REPLETE WITH WELL PREPARED ROTATIONAL CONTRIBUTIONS FROM NIESE, WHEELER, HARVEY, FAMILIA, GEE SANS THE ONEROUS FINANCIAL BURDENS OF BAY & SANTANA.
IT’S FRIGHTENING TO OBSERVE HOW QUICKLY CALLS FOR A “PLAN” GET OUT SHOUTED BY CALLS FOR IMMEDIACY. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE ABOVE COMMENTARY PORTRAYS THE ACCURACY OF THE OLE SAYING, “WE’VE MET OUR ENEMY & THEY ARE US” retort!
ALREADY TOO MANY ARE JUMPING BACK ON THE LOSE TYHE DRAFT POSITIONS FOR THE AGING VET WITH THE MOST IMPRESSIVE HISTORICAL RECORD. SOMEWHERE, MINAYA, PHLIIPS & DUQUETTE ARE LAUGHING HYSTERICALLY
EVERYONE WAMNTS TO EMULATE THE 90s BRAVES & CONTEMPORARY PHILLIES; BUT NO ONE CARES TO PAY THE FREIGHT IN HARDWORKING DEVELOPMENT & PATIENCE
BOTH OF THOSE FRANCHISES GOT TO WHERE THEY WANTED SANS TYPE A OR B F/A FOR THE MOST PART
THE MISERABLE BRAVES OF THE 80s CREATED THE REMARKABLE BRAVES OF THE 90s.
AS I’VE LONG SUSPECTED FROM MY PRESENT PERCH IN NC AN UNFORTUNATELY VAST NUMBER OF LOCALIZED NYM FANS ONLY SEE THEIR PATH AS EMULATING NYY PATH TO SUCCESS AS THEY PROPOSE SPENDING THEIR WAY TO SUCCESS INSTEAD OF BUILDING THIR WAY.
THE PROBLEM IS NOT NEVER FINDINGA “QUICK FIX” BANDAID; THE PROBLEM IS THE PAINFUL REMOVAL OF IT ALONG WITH THE SCAR LEFT BEHIND,(weak farm)
+100!
“THE MISERABLE BRAVES OF THE 80s CREATED THE REMARKABLE BRAVES OF THE 90s.”
I would add:
And the Miserable Phillies of the 90′s created the remarkable Phillies of the 2000′s!
Neither team PLANNED to be awful as a goal to give them what is needed to build as solid a team as they had/have.
None of the people in charge said to themselves “Hey I have an PLAN! Lets just suck for a decade and stockpile Draft Picks, Sell off anyone who might keep us out of last place for more picks, and then we will dominate the league when enough of them are ready!”
This is the point I have tried to get accross to those who feel that we need to do things the way the Braves and Phillies did! To do what they did requires about a decade of sucking! Can you PLAN for that? Not if you intend to keep your job as GM you can’t!
We would have to go through three GMs who all believed SUCKING was the key to winning in order to implement that plan!
So you CAN NOT PLAN to do what the Braves and Phillies did. Not until you have sucked for a decade and made those good draft choices when you were picking at the top because you sucked.
Yes you must “Build from within” at ALL times no matter what your position in the standings is. You do that by making your draft selections COUNT not just getting more than everyone else and hope 5% of 110 picks means more players than 5% of 100 picks! Raise the percentages not the chances and you get far more players than you can stockpiling and collecting extra picks!
If your PLAN is to be like the Braves and Philly Builds then your plan involves sucking for a very long time! Thats not a PLAN if you ask me, it’s a resignation, a sabatical, its giving up!
And NO. the counter to that is not just go and buy whatever you need as some would have us believe is the ONLY alternative so as to convince you their SUCK plan is best…
You can build from within and NOT SUCK as well! The Yankees and RedSox have done this, spent money when they had to, but still managed to maintain a decent MiL system to fill in when some of their FA players were not worth resigning or got hurt.
There are too many EXTREMISTS trying to pull the team planning in one direction or the other. Extremists are ALWAYS a very loud group but often just a boisterous minority.
The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle!
We should try to keep the players who help us win. Those on the fringes of that goal can be let go for pick collection when the time comes and maybe if we are smart and lucky we can sign an FA that might cost us a pick in a year when someone with a better pick level than us signs one of those FAs away so the net result is the same picks but a higher selection!
The Minor leagues may hold the key to the future but unless your going to develop an entire roster of starters down there you HAVE to have someone on the MLB squad who can mentor and help them while playing the positions you could not develop in the Minors.
This seems lost on many people because they so desperatly want to be the Braves and the Phillies!
Well we managed to do what they did ONLY ONCE! Back in 86 where we sucked for a decade from the mid 70′s right up until the early 80′s and while some were too young to remember just how painful those late 70′s early 80′s were, they should still be smart enough to know that NO ONE planned it that way! No one said LETS SUCK for awhile. Not in the Mets FO, Not in the Braves FO and certainly not in the Phillies FO!
So whatever plan they think those teams used was a plan of circumstances not a plan of ACTION!
They implemented that plan because the opportunity presented itself, not because they thought it out and willed it to be!
Cause no intelligent human in their right mind would say I have a plan lets suck for awhile and then be champions!
METSIE, OF COURSE IT’S POSSIBLE TO BUILD A MLB CONTENDER SIMULTANEOSLY STOCKING YOUR FARM WITH FUTRES & AS U POINT OUT THE YANKS & SAWX ARE PRIME EXAMPLES, CERTAINLY MODELS OMAR WAS PLANNING ON FOLLOWING UNTIL AN INTRACTABLE OWNER(FRED) BECAME AN IMOVABLE FORCE AS HE REFUSED TO COUNTER HIS PROCLAIMED SUPPORT FOR SLOTTING AS PROPOSED BY NIS NEWEST BUDDY, SELIG. LOST IN THE HISTORICAL REFERENCES TO ATLANTA & PHILASDELPHIA IS THE POSUTION OF KNOWING WHERE YOU STAND COMPETITIVELY & HOW MUCH IS ACTUAL SIGNIGICANT F/A CONTRIBUTION & HOW MUCH IS WINDOW DRESSING CONTRIBUTION. CERTAINLY DURING THE 80s ATLANTA, UNDER TURNER, HAD THE WHEREWITHALL TO HIRE F/A MERCENARIES; BUT WERE REALISTIC ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT MURPHY & HORNER PROVIDED AS HOMEBOYS, THEIR PITCHING WAS SO WOEFUL AS TO NEGATE WHATEVER PLUS AN ADDITIONAL BAT OR 2 MAY CONTRIBUTE, ACKNOWLEDGING THE BUILT IN FOIBLES OF F/A SLUGGERS(TENDED TO BE OLDER, PAST PRIME, SHORT TIMERS)
WHILE BOTH BOSTON & NYY HAD VERY FERTILE FARM SYSTEMS WHEN THEY COMMENCED THEIR PILLAGING OF THE OPEN MARKET. BOTH HAD FARMS CAPABLE OF REINFOCEMENTS @ A QUALITY LEVEL. AS EAERLY PRACTICIONERS THEY WERE FREE TO SIGN & SPEND WITH NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THEIR DRAFT ALLOCATIONS SINCE F/A LOSS COMPENSATION WAS SUPPLIED BY EVERY CLUB’S POOL OF UNPROTECTED TALENT.(SEE NYM LOSS OF SEAVER IN ’84)
TIMING IS CWERTAINLY EVERYTHING & THE NYM TIMING HISTORY IS ABHORANTLY LOUSY. ADDING SANTANA WHEN WE DID, KNOWING WE WERE UNLIKELY TO AFFORD MORE THAN HIM AS A TOP LEVEL PERFORMER WAS POOR DISCRETIONARY SPENDING.
OF ALL THE BIG MARKET OWNERSHIPS, OUR’S IS LEAST LIKELY TO SUSTAIN LENGTHY SPENDING AT A HIGH ALLOCATION LEVEL AS THE ENTIRE STERLING OWNERSHIP BOARD SHARES THE SAME COMMON SOURCE OF NON-MLB INCOME. LACK OF DIVERSIFICATION ALONG WITH THE GREAT TENDANCY FOR REAL EASTATE TO BUCKLE LIKELY SUBBOURNS STERLINGS’ FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO ATLANTA’S TURNER(80s), WHOSE MULTILEVEL COMMUNICATIONS ASETS WERE CLOSE TO MONEY PRINTING LICENSESS BOTH TV & RADIO DOMINATING THE ENTIRE SUB MASON-DIXON REGION OF THE USA. WHERE THEY HELD A LONG STANDING MONOPOLY AS A MLB TEAM FOR A VERY SUBSTANTIAL GEOGRAPHIC AREA.
But 62 I will point out that despite all of Omars spending ways he still managed to get guys like Murphy, Turner, Niese, Gee, Duda, Harvey, Mejia and Holt.
And this is with people claiming his stupidity got us LESS picks!
It’s not about how many picks you have it’s about what you DO with the picks you have.
There are times when what you gain in a signed player is better than what you might get from the pick you lost to sign him!
Not every 1st round is chock full of great talent!
If you deem the 1st round to be weak then there is nothing wrong with giving up that pick to get 3 or 4 years of GREAT PLAYER that cost the OWNER money.
He helps sell tickets that make up for the money and you don’t waste a pick on weak talent that may not ever be good enough to play in the MLB.
Pick are important provided the talent is there. and if it isn’t then using that LOW VALUE pick to get a HIGH VALUE player is a smart move! It’s a more immediate gain and could help you win a championship while you are building the team from within. So you get fewer guys listed on Baseball America’s prospect list so what? You get more TIME to groom those kids because there is no hole on the MLB squad as well!
Each decision must be made based on the situation that exists not some ideology or a stubborn adherance to philosophy!
Cause the Ideology/Philosophy will not fit EVERY situation!
And mistakes will be made!
I’M NOT ADVOCATING OMAR NOT GO “BALLS OUT” ON F/A NEEDED TO BOLSTER AN INHERITED LANGUISHING FRANCHISE; BUT I AM POINTING OUT HOW OWBERSHIP SURRENDERED “THE POTERNTIAL HIGHGROUND OF SECURING THE BEST AVAILABLE F/A TALENTS WITHOUT LOWERING THE ACQUIRED TALENT LEVEL OF AMATEURS SECURED FOR THE FUTURE.
EVERTY DRAFT SEES FIRST ROUND TALENT BEING BYPASSED ENTIRELY TO THE SECOND ROUND DUE TO IMAGINED “OUTRAGEOUSLY HIGH SIGNING DEMANDS. THOSE ARE THE OPORTUNITIES BEING POINCED UPON BY BOSTON & NYY THAT SLOT DEVOTION HAS CAUSED US TO SETTLE WITHOUT.
But 62 look who was there when we would have picked…Look who the Phillies (who are supposed to be good drafters) gto from getting Wagner?
You mean to tell me Wagner wasn’t the better move there?
Considering what the Phillies got in return for losing him?
Phillies got Kyle Drabek which was the biggest part of acquiring Roy Halliday for losing Wagner as well as another piece used to acquire Joe Blanton. They also used a supplemental pick received from losing FA David Dellucci as the 2nd biggest part of the Halliday deal (Catcher Travis d’Anaurd)
Wagner was never available when we deep down needed a game closed. He blew a 4-0 9yh inning lead to the NYY because he “wasn’t prepared to come into a non save situation.” He also had back spasms and was unavailable for the last two weeks of the 2007 melt down, missed most of 2008 and all of 2009 and pitched to a 13.50 ERA in the 2006 NLCS and wasn’t even available in the 9th inning of game 7.
So yeah, I would say by far and away Philadelphia was much much better served by “losing” Wagner than we were by getting him.
Not even close.
Yep and they had to give away multiples to BUY Halladay didn’t they?
So they DID NOT PICK a good player they had to get rid of that pick to get the one they WANTED in a BUY!
AS A BUYER! NOT A SELLER!
What you FAIL to see is they gave up THREE picks to get Halladay, we gave up only ONE for Wagner!
Who gave up more? THEY DID!
Halladay can only help you win one game, Wagner had the possibility to ensure all 5 games of our rotation…
We got MUCH better than Phillies got in that Wagner deal!
They gave away MUCH more than we did!
Well again Metsie. Two of the three prospects were picks they got for “losing” guys in the Halliday deal. Do they actually acquired extra picks and then traded those prospects.
And um, ugh Halliday or Wagner? Hmmm. Tough choice.
*So.
And uh 200 IP or 60?
I’d say Halliday is three times as valuable as Wagner.
Oh so it wasn’t because they were so smart at drafting as you kept suggesting?
IPs??? how about wins compared to Saves?
It’s probably worth noting that when I say the Braves plan is one I feel could work for the Mets, I speak of the 2010 and 2011 Braves that were built from 2006-2009…. not the Glavine/Maddux/Smoltz Braves.
And what exactly have the 2010-2011 braves done??? 1 wild card berth?? why not be the brewers while we at it.. since 2008 they have the same amount of playoffs app as the braves!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU SUCH A LOSER!!! are the braves (a team with ZERO hitting) and 2 good pitchers from the minors really THAT good???????
let’s see,other than venters, your man crush kimbrel and hanson what else is worth mentioning on that team?? really?? freeman is ok, but remember we have ike davis who i believe is better, then what else??
again, GO TO A BRAVES BLOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 WC birth in a season and a half with another all but locked up is actually pretty good.
Brewers 1 WC berth, and another one locked up… by the way, maybe 1 WC and a Division Tittle.. BREWERS..
What? I don’t even get what you are saying.
I think he’s saying it is the braves fault they play in the same division as the best team in the league?
acording to my calendar, the GIANTS are the best team in the league until SOMEONE else dethrone them.. arent i right???????
LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What’s with all the name calling?
It’s the sign of a vanquished debater who’s point is indisipherable, incoherent and totally indefensible.
Pointless, inaccurate, wrong, out in LF and completely oblivious to anyone other than said debater.
In other words, the language one uses when their point……. is pointless.
“1 WC birth in a season and a half with another all but locked up is actually pretty good.”
Really?
Would that be better than one Division clinch and two misses of the playoffs by 1.5 games or less?
You know those seasons where Omar the guy you love to hate did in a years worth of building what you propose to take 4 or 5 to do?
MEtsie, these guys are loser braves fans who pretend to be mets fans.. you hear them gushing about kimbrel, heyward and his 220 ba avg, yet s**** on mets players like tejada, reyes well pretty much everyone not named david wright
No Alex, they are MONEYBALL fans and they want to see us use that plan so that they can have another shot at proving the BIBLE!
Oakland isn’t working for them because Oakland never won anything, they are hoping Sandy will use it here and make it work for once so they can use it to preach their gospel!
Thats what this is all about!
They really have NO CLUE what Atlanta and the Phillies did just read what Jessup said about the way the braves worked lately. It is completely COUNTER to what he has been spewing!
And he doesn’t even go to the phillies anymore because they are doing EXACTLY what Omar did! Only they aren’t limiting themselves to one BIG addition each year they are buying WHOLESALE!
They added, Oswalt, Lee and now Pence in the course of a years time! This after getting Halladay before the last season.
They are totally playing WIN NOW which is why all the talk about what the Phillies are doing has died down and they are relegated to only mentioning the BRAVES!
They don’t like the braves it’s just that they are the only team who at one time built from within and have not played WIN NOW recently…And thats why they are only playing for the WC and not the division.
They don’t want to emulate the Braves they TRULY want to emulate Oakland. But they suck and are trying to paint the Braves as the reason to implement their gospel despite the fact the Braves don’t follow that Bible they love!
When you have to lie to support your position, you’re position is not worth defending.
I’m not lying your own words convict you! All anyone has to do is read your posts to know what you and Jessup are all about!
metsie, you’re wrong, these guys ARE braves fans, losers who pretend to be mets fans but they are exposed when they gush about the braves, you are right, they have used teams like the twins, a’s to use their strategy of winning from within, what they fail to realize is those teams have never won anything, and now are trying to use the braves after a 3 years span of pure, and i mean pure CRAP!!!!!!
Yes, making the playoffs is better than not making the playoffs.
Are you trying to tell me otherwise?
Well if making the playoffs is EQUAL then isn’t winning a division better thasn making a WC?
Note they haven’t clinched the wildcard this year, so far they are not doing any better thasn Omars team then!
Making the playoffs is better than not making the playoffs.
Do you disagree with that statement?
Mets did make the Playoffs by WINNING THE DIVISION STUPID!
That is not what I asked. Please, yes or no
Is making the playoffs better than not making the playoffs?
making the playoffs is better, if is the team you root for. not the braves!!! LOSER!!!!!
So, even alex is able to wrap his head around the idea of making the playoffs being better than not making the playoffs.
You have some serious catching up to do, Metsie
YES! now is winning the division better than winning the wildcard yes or no?
You won’t answer because you are too afraid to ever speak the truth!
Winning the East once is better than winning the Wild Card once. Winning the Wild Card twice is better than winning the East once.
What is your point? You were trying to portray not making the playoffs as better than making the playoffs.
WINNING THE WILD CARD TWICE??? is the season over??? should we skip to october then?????
Also, winning the Wild Card last year and this year is better than winning the Wild Card 5 years ago and failing every year after.
Sorry, that should read “winning the Division 5 years ago and failing every year after”
What is my point? Well Omar WON THE EAST!
Did Atlanta?
Yes, 5 years ago. On a down year. And never had another October.
But hey, lets celebrate the fact he came close, because that’s not loser talk.
Well since the Mets won the east under omar that must mean Mets and omar did things better than the Braves eh?
Since you agree that winning the east is better than the wildcard right?
You might win more arguments if you just kept your mouth shut! LOL
Cause every word you speak seesm to come back to bite you in the butt!
Still waiting for your player evaluations I asked you for…
You will note I did post the quotes…
Are you running away again?
HIDING as usual when you get caught in the bull you post everyday?
since 2006, mets 1 playoffs app, braves 1 playoffs app.. since 2002, mets 1 playoffs series victory, atlanta (in 5 series) ZERO!!!!!!!!!
LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
since 2007, Mets 0 playoff appearances, braves 1
see, I can pick arbitrary points to make a pointless observation too.
Too bad for You Omar was GM starting in 2005!
If you want to cherry pick years we could always cherry pick the Braves years and count the 80s too!
Sorry Mr Make Facts…
But the Mets under Omar won as many playoff entries as the Braves have!
And did it by winning the DIVISION not backing in via the Wildcard!
Then explain that to alex who picked 2006 as a starting point.
and Frank Wren will be GM at the end of the year, so if we match up his tenure vs Minaya, you still lose.
Unless you still want to try twisting the standard to fit your specific need.
Wait… what?
First of all last year they won over 90 games. So that’s a pretty nice accomplishment, and oh by the way they made the playoffs.
This year, they will likely win 90+ games and oh by the way make the playoffs.
Who cares HOW they do it? Are the playoffs determined by what team’s offense is the best? The Mets play in a park where offenses get shut down… so why wouldn’t you want to build a team like Atlanta which has proven offense isn’t everything? (Just like the oh by the way Giants have)
You ask me who they have? Well
Beachy, Hanson, Kimbrel, Minor, O’Flaherty, Venters, McCann, Freeman, Heyward, Prado, Jurrjens are all 27 or younger
Plus they have Teheran and Randall Delgado waiting in the minors.
You want to talk about a core? That’s a core. Then they surround them with guys like Hudson, Lowe, Chipper, Uggla and now Bourn.
I can’t even fathom how you can disagree that this Braves squad is built very well considering over the span of 278 Games played they’ve probably been the 3rd best team in the NL behind Philly and San Fran.
You telling me right now if you’re a GM you’d rather inherit the Mets roster over the Braves? Get real.
reyes, wright, davis, thole, turner, murphy, pagan (19) duda, gee, parnell, niese, tejada are all 27 or younger
plus we have harvey, familia, niesen, mejia and wheeler in 2014.
what core is better?? we surround our guys with veterans leader like izzy, the proffessional jason bay, and 2 PTBN we got for krod..
since 2005-2008 the team with the most victories in the NL were the new york mets, NEVER heard you gushing this way about the team, instead you wrote about URINALS!!!
if i am a gm, in NY, and i don’t have a small market mentality, is not even a question i’d take the new york mets.. but hey, our GM is thinking draft picks, single A pitchers and PTBN.. not our fault our owners are broke
According to you, Wright, Parnell and Thole all suck.
take away 3.. at least 3 of those guys have 2 year or less in experience, some have months, yet he gushes over them, and sh** on the mets players, GO TO A ATLANTA BRAVES BLOG!!!!
LOSER!!!!
According to you so does Murphy, Turner, Duda and everyone else who is on this team!
All because they disn’t make Baseball America’s list!
Tejada and Turner are role players. They don’t suck, but I’m not about to call them the core.
Beachy is an ace, hanson is an ace, heyward is an MVP candidate, prado is hitting 340 etc.. right?????
Did I say that?
More Opinion sans facts from MR Make Facts!
Cool, then show me some facts, like when I said everyone on the team sucks.
Ohhhh I am so tempted to go back into metsmerized history and start quoting dude!
But you would only ignore them just like you always do when facts are put before you!
Like when I asked you to show proof of american retreats in the pacific in WWII you claimed happened and then you disappeared!
All anyone has to do is read your assesment of the players we have here…
Lets try something and see how fast you answer (or RUN)…
Murphy – GOOD PLAYER?
Turner – Good Player?
Ike Davis – Good Player?
Harvey – Good Player?
Holt – Good Player?
Havens – Good Player?
Niese – Good Player?
Gee – Good Player?
Duda – Good Player?
How many of those do you like and then when your done tell us how much you don’t think the entire team sucks!
You see because you either think they suck and need to implement your plan or you don’t think they suck and the REASON you give for your plan doesn’t exist you just want to implement it because thats what the GOOD BOOK “MONEYBALL” (WHich EVERYONE has read and dismissed as a failure) tells you you must do!
Then do it
HAHAHAHAHAHA Taking the 5th because your answer may tend to incriminate you eh?
COWARD!
Review the players I mentioned and then I will have proved my point ONE way or the other!
coward and a loser!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I’m looking for the posts you can quote.
ok try these since you admit you can’t answer those questions without hanging yourself…
HERE are quotes…I DARE you to say you never said them…
The reality is, we have a staff full of #3 starters, even with Santana
Tejada and Turner are role players.
The fact that you had to include Murphy and Niese as guys to build around shows the weakness of your position
All spoken by you!
Want links answer the questions above or do your usual run away because you got caught denying your own opinions!
ALEX, THE FALICY OF YOUR ARGUEMENT IS CONCENTRATIN ON THE GM’s THINKING WHICH DOESN’T MATTER ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR PRINCIPLE OWNER, FRED, PREFERS THE COMFORT OD SMALL MARKET FINANCES. THE GM IS AN EMPLOYEE(THE TAIL) FRED IS THE OWNER(THE DOG) AND NEVER HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN A TAIL CAPABLE OF WAGGING THE DOG!
So just so I am clear on this
Beachy, Hanson, Kimbrel, Minor, O’Flaherty, Venters, McCann, Freeman, Heyward, Prado, Jurrjens
“reyes, wright, davis, thole, turner, murphy, pagan (19) duda, gee, parnell, niese, tejada are all 27 or younger
plus we have harvey, familia, niesen, mejia and wheeler in 2014.
what core is better??”
So first of all: Wright is 28, Pagan is 30, and Reyes is 28. So right off thebat you’re already wrong when you said “are all 27 or younger”
Secondly “what core is better??” How is it possible that you are asking me that when the Braves are on their way to their 2nd straight playoff berth?
on their way is not already in the playoffs, again, 3 years straight of PURE FUTILITY,, i mean it wasnt even close how GARBAGE they were from 2006 to 2009, mets have had bad years in 2009-2010 based on INJURIES!!! not the same!!! had we had a competent GM don’t you think things would’ve been different? but we didn’t and that’s that.. again, tell your braves to win at least 1 playoff series before crowning them the cream of the crap.. that team CAN’T hit to save their life..
So the Braves of 2010 and 2011 are not a better team than the Mets because the Mets COULD have made the playoffs?
I can’t even believe I’m reading this. The Braves have been the 3rd maybe even the 2nd best team in the regular season in the NL for the last 2 years and their young core continues to improve. How can you knock that?
Because from 06-09 they didn’t make the playoffs? The Mets are about to hit the same 4 years of no playoffs and what do they have to show for it? A lot less than Atlanta did last year that is for sure.
loser.. braves are not even fighting for the division and you’re happy for that, not only you are a loser, but a second fiddle loser!!!!!!!!!!!
current atlanta braves roster 87 million
CURRENT mets roster 74 million … LOOK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOSER@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!
No because the reason they were better than us was due to our having injuries not because they had better players than us!
Where on earth is Alex68 getting this magical math from? The current Mets payroll is $143mm, they are still under obligation to pay Beltran, Castillo, Perez and GMJ (another brilliant Omar signing), as examples. Your arguments for reducing payroll are very weak, considering they had to EAT salary to get rid of people and pay them to do so, and another thing is that Alderson said that he didn’t want to spend more than $5mm (IMO it was ridick to do more than that being how in the hole they were), and he went and spent close to $10, even giving Carasco a 2-yr deal (which I disagreed with but whatever, it’s not gonna make or break the team). Please stop trying to support your crazy theories here Alex68, as much as you are entertaining, you are truly embarrassing yourself.
coop, i said look at the CURRENT roster, had we not had injuries to santana 22 million, oliver and castillo’s contract 18 million, k rod 12 million and beltran’s 18 million then yes, you can make a case for us having a 143 million, now, i said CURRENT ROSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you’re not that stupid.. CURRENT ROSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Silly me, I forgot that 2010 matters when teams take the field in 2011.
That’s why the Reds are the 3rd or 4th best team in the NL right? Silly me.
The Braves have the 2nd most wins in the NL right now.
Therefore, they are the 2nd best team in the NL, right now.
You’re trying to make them out to be this awful team when they are about to do something the Mets haven’t done since 1999-2000 and that is make the playoffs 2 years in a row. (by the way, that is the only time the Mets ever did it)
Spare me this idea that the Braves aren’t a model franchise. They are going to be around for YEARS while the Mets continue to figure things out and dig out of the hole they are in. And oh by the way, what is Atlanta’s payroll?
First of all Alex “@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!” What is that? Quit being a child please. If you want to talk like a grown up, learn to type like one.
Secondly, life doesn’t work like this. The Mets payroll is 74mil. Okay, what is their record as a team with $74mil?
How come you say Atlanta has an 87mil payroll but you don’t deduct their injuries? Could it be we’re trying to create an argument that makes you look right?
The Braves has $24,450,000mil on the DL Right now. So by your fuzzy math, you can now make the Braves a $62 million payroll.
Why are we even sitting here denying the Braves are a very good team? I don’t understand this obsession with admitting the Mets aren’t the best in the whole wide world?
The 2011 Braves are better now and in better shape in the next 2-3 years than the Mets are. Denying that is just ridiculous. It doesn’t mean you’re less of a Mets fan, it means you aren’t a homer
2nd best team??? niot that im into who finishes second, that’s for losers, but weren’t the phillies playing the giants in the NLCS? and the loser is probably the second best team right?? LOSER
Ohhhhhhhh, trust me, ppl here KNOW i am not a homer, but i don’t belittle our players in order to make players from other teams look good like you do, if a player is good, fine,but i won’t drool over them like you do.. i mean, brandon beachy???? SERIOUSLY???????
No one is denying the Braves are a very good team…What we are denying is your assertion that your plan was the one that got them where they are!
Cause they ain’t running your plan or using YOUR philosophy!
They were buyers at the deadline not sellers.
They spent plenty on FAs that were no younger than 34, You say we need to shed them!
They are so diametrically opposed to what you suggest it isn’t even funny just how opposite BOTH the braves and Phillies are to what you propose!
So Alex, the Braves CRIME to you is being the 2nd best team in the National League but not leading their division? That’s quite a stretch. I am sure the Red Sox and Yankees aren’t that good either depending on who wins the WC right?
Braves “futility” when they were “garbage” from 2006-2009 consisted of 79-83, 84-78, 72-90 and 86-76,
That period did include the Braves only two losing seasons in 20 years (we had 11) and their only 90+ loss season (we had 6) and immediately followed a span of 13 division titles in 14 years.
Basically a four year period where they were six games under .500 after winning 13 Division Titles in 14 years.
The mere fact that you refer to this period as the Braves being garbage only proves Jessep’s point.
I mean what Met Fan wouldn’t immediately sign up for 13 Division titles in 14 years followed by 4 season records like those listed above and then right back to the playoffs again?
That’s the kind of futility that would cause spontaneuous celebrations all over Queens.
Yeah and how many CORE did they bring up in that time?
Seems to me they still live with that OLD core of Chipper making big hits for them when he isn’t hurt.
The original Braves were made only after a decade or more of losing!
Phillies of today were made after a decade of losing!
ANd the Braves didn’t sell off talent to get the kids they currently have!
So Jessup trying to claim THATS what he wants to do is opposite of what he actually proposed WE do!
But twist and spin when the reality of what you guys have been proposing gets exposed to the light!
You should care how they do it because they are NOT doing it the way you suggest they are!
How come YOU keep telling ME how I think the team should be built?
The Braves missed the playoffs for 4 years and during that time built a very successful young team and made really 1 big mistake in trading for Texiera.
Without the Tex deal, that’s how I want the Mets to build their franchise. Right there. Look at Atlanta, that is how I want us to find, develop and sign talent.
Stop telling me what I am thinking when you are just making stuff up to make your own point of view look better.
The Braves are a legit threat in the NL, and them winning the wildcard isn’t a negative on their team or a positive for the 2006 Mets. It’s a positive for the Phillies. Are you telling me the 2006 Mets were as good as the 2011 Phillies? Of course not.
The Braves have a very good young core which consists of starting pitching, one of the best bullpens in the sport and some offensive talent… surrounded by veterans such as Hudson-Lowe-Chipper to bring it all together.
Denying that the Braves will be very good for a long period of time is foolish. Trying to use the fact they aren’t winning the division right now is foolish. Trying to claim that their young core is not as good as the Mets is foolish. They’ve proven they are not a 1 hit wonder.
Because once a week since Jul you have posted an article telling us you want us to be like the Braves and Phillies and then go on to promote a plan that NEITHER has used!
Really? The Braves were Sellers at the deadline? Pretty much looked like BUYERS to me!
They gave away 4 players to get Bourne!
In 2008 they signed 6 players…The youngest 34!
In 2009 they signed 4 players…The YOUNGEST was 35!
Signed 3 in 2010….The Youngest 34!
Oh yeah that sounds TOTALLY like the crap you been pushing around here!
I would like it pointed out that Both Jessup and Donal have avoided the above post and these facts in yet ANOTHER RETREAT which is their plan for EVERYTHING when things aren’t going so well for them!
Yeah we should be like the Braves…
Funny how the Braves don’t seem to fit thier plan now does it?
Keep Running and Hiding boys!
What quitters and cowards are best at!
Really? We’re on your schedule now?
“They gave away 4 players to get Bourne!”
Ya, because they are locking up a playoff spot, had a need, and found a 28 year old who will fill that need very well and is arbitration eligible after this year.
“In 2008 they signed 6 players…The youngest 34!
In 2009 they signed 4 players…The YOUNGEST was 35!
Signed 3 in 2010….The Youngest 34!”
Yes, some fill in players were brought in. By the way, did you notice the further along the Braves get, the fewer of those guys they brought it?
Hmm is that the plan you were suggesting when you said Beltran should be traded?
Is that what the Braves did slappy?
Sorry but you just admitted that they didn’t do what you SAY they did or what you want US to do!
What are you babbling about?
The Braves are playoff bound and had a need and found a young guy who will be relatively cheap. They used prospects to get him, but that’s part of why you develop a farm.
Who here says you should never acquire players from outside the organization? I am saying that shouldn’t be the go to move.
“The Braves are playoff bound ”
More opinion. Have they clinched already?
Someone should let MLB know they don’t have them down as clinched yet!
More supposition and opinion you try to sell off as fact!
FACT is the Braves didn’t sell off talent to become successful did they?
No they drafted it, developed it and will have it for 6-10 years, while it’s in it’s prime.
Right! Bourne was drafted wasn’t he?!!?!??!!?
They didn’t need to trade off good players to draft did they? If so WHO?
Which is what Donal and Jessup are both selling…
MONEYBALL! get rid of ALL expense and try to get picks.
Then hope they all work out!
Braves bought plenty of players over the course of their runs.
Wow, either you are lying and you never actually read Moneyball (my bet) or you tried to read it and you understand it as poorly as you understand anything that has been written here (not my bet, but pretty sound).
Still running from the questions like the coward and EXPOSED liar you are!
Prove I didn’t read it liar!
I know clogged up constpated colons who aren’t as full of it as you are!
You got EXPOSED so do what you do best RUN AWAY RETREAT QUITTER!
You’re not even making sense.
It should also be noted that Atlanta made a big mistake by signing two of those older players. Wagner and Glavine. They got something out of Wagner until the playoffs for one year and nothing out of Glavine in his one year.
We were extremely fortunate that they signed Glavine as we got to draft Davis and Holt with those two picks. Had they not signed Glavine they probably would have drafted Ike as they were looking for a firstbasemen and in fact drafted one (Freddie Freeman) the following year in the 2nd round.
This seems to be a rare diversion off the path of what has worked successfully for the Braves and more of a page taken from the Harazin/Phillips/Duquette/Minaya playbook.
Wrong again Metsie,
That would be true if that were the way the Phillies were built. Unfortunately that was not the case. Take any of their players and see how they were acquired. Ruiz IFA, no draft involved, Howard 5th round pick. Even the defending World Series champs had four chances to draft Howard. Utley, 1st round 15th selection, right dab in the middle of the pack. Rollins, 2nd round, Hamels 1st round 18th pick, better than right in the middle. Victorinno, Rule 5, no draft involved. Werth, non-tender, no draft involved, Ibanez FA, no draft involved.
Not sure where all this high draft choices for sucking came from, sure isn’t accurate. In fact the highest draft choice the Phillies have had in many years wouldn’t even sign with them (JD Drew 1st/#2)
Totally and completely inaccurate with the “facts.”
Please tell us who were the high, early round picks that Philly got that helped them win a World championship? Name some names. C’mon. Don’t be bashfull.
Tell us who did Philly draft round 1 pick 1-10 that contributed mightily toward their World Championship?
I’ll tell you who. No one, that’s who.
Right so which one was the move where Philly or the Braves traded away a top player and producer on thier team to get those draft picks again?
Cause thats the model Jessup and Donal have put forth as the proper course of action!
What was their record between the time they drafted Rollins Utley and Hamels?
What was their highest position in the Division during that time?
Tell me THOSE facts and then tell me they didn’t become and draft the players they did because they SUCKED wholesale UNTIL AFTER they got Hamels!
Cause thats what actually happened!
You can ignore it if you want just as you ignored the 20 years of sucking in Atlanta before they got all those guys THEY drafted and dominated a decade with!
You always seem to start the clock at when they started winning as if HOW they got there is irrelevant…But it isn’t! What happened BEFORE was what allowed them to draft those players.
Metsie, I’m not positive that is the plan Jessp and Donal prefer but that’s immaterial to this discussion. First, one team at a time.
The Phillies. Which player did they get that no one else had a chance to get because of their terrible losing records?
Answer, no one. Either half, all or all teams, many times over had the opportunity to acquire the players that did the heavy lifting for the Phillies in their World Championship year and later.
Your assertion that the Phillies got these guys because of their many years of losing is simply not supported by the facts. Ryan Howard could have been chose by the defending World Champions four times over. Did the defending World champions suck? Rollins was available to every single team, Utley to half of all teams, the half with a worse record than the Phillies. Hamels was available to more than half of all teams. Ruiz, Victorino, Werth, Ibanez were available to every single team.
Here, you want to know who they got rid of? I’ll answer even though you won’t answer my question. The following were players the Phillies either let leave as FA’s for the draft picks or traded away for prospects Billy Wagner, Pat Burrell, Aaron Rowand, David Dellucci, Jim Thome, Brett Myers, Randy Wolfe, Curt Schilling, Scott Rolen and their best player 4 out of the previous 5 years Bobby Abreu.
That’s 10 names I gave you and you can’t even give me one to back up your distortion of the truth.
Now will you please back up your assertion that Phillies got all their star players because they sucked for so long even in light of the fact that every single team, in some cases multiple times over had a shot at almost every Phillie who comprised their World Series Teams?
As I asked you before Metsie. Name names. Who did the Phillies get that no one else had a shot at because of their terrible record? Ryan Howard who was drafted in the 5th round wasn’t available to everyone? Jimmy Rollins drafted in the 2nd round wasn’t available to everyone? Even Hamels 1st #18 and Utley 1st #15 were available to half or more of all teams and Victorino, Werth, Ruiz and Ibaenez were available to every single team so again I ask you Metsie to back up this false assertion of yours that the Phillies were built on top draft choices before anyone else got to pick because of their terrible records.
The Phillies drafted and developed a player that anyone could have drafted four times who came in first, second, third, fifth and tenth in the MVP voting in recent years. They drafted another guy in the second round that every single team in baseball could have drafted but didn’t who won another MVP. Jayson Werth received MVP votes and didn’t cost a draft choice or a prospect to get. The Phillies got him the same off season we gave up our #1 pick for 100 games of Moises Alou. Victorino was a rule 5. He didn’t cost a draft pick like Jason Bay for instance and unlike Bay he received MVP votes for his new team as well. Ruiz also received MVP votes and as an IFA was available to be signed by each and every team without exception.
If it were all the losing that helped Philly obtain all their great players as you assert, why wouldn’t we have gotten our fair share of top players? We’ve had more losing seasons than the Phillies in the last 20 years and we’ve had more seasons of 90+ losses than they have too.
The fact is that Phillies got performances that earned MVP consideration from guys drafted in the middle of the first round, 2nd round, 5th round, non tenders, rule 5′s, IFA’s and FA’s. ALL SOURCES. Every single team could have had almost all of their players but only one team did select all these guys. The team that has won the NL East 4 straight times.
Back up your statement Metsie. Name names, I did.
First off to be clear you have not suggested what they have so lets get that out of the way.
But you must remember something about how the competition and playoff picture is made.
No they were not the WORST team in baseball. But they were FAR WORSE than both us and Atlanta.
The two teams they needed to beat to get to the playoffs.
We were the powerhouse back in 86. We picked after those two for quite a few years while they were sitting in the basement while we and StL beat each other over the head!
This is the KEY as while we and STL were fighting and winning they were collecting the better draft picks we had no shot at taking due to our competitive seasons and winning.
In 1986 the Braves were not even in our division! They were in the West and with a .447 win Pct they were the WORST team in that division.
Next to last in 87
Dead last in 88
Dead last in 89
dead last in 90
In 91 all those years of top selection came up and a juggernaught was born!
Now I could have gone back further with them but I think my point was pretty much made about HOW Atlanta came to dominance and was able to build a team that went from last to first.
THIS is where the Altanta Braves of the 90′s were created!
Phillies were a decent team during the 80s and even made a run in the early 90′s to win a WS (93) But after that they stayed in the basement.
Phillies were a good team in 86.
87 not so good
88 only team worse than them was Atlanta! (Leaguewide!)
89 Last again.
90 Next to last
91 still bad but rising into in 3rd place
92 Last place again
93 World Series!
94 Realignment! Half the competition GONE! Next to last! right behind us!
It is after this point where Phillies built the team they currently have!
95 Braves take over OUR division, Phillies behind us in 3rd place Rollins taken 2nd round!
96 Phillies Last Place
97 Last Place
98 Third Place
99 Third Place
2000 Last Place (Utley and a lucky pick of no name Howard) This is where they became a force! This is their turning point!
01 2nd Place (enter Rollins)
02 3rd place (Hamels Selected)
03 3rd Place (Enter Utley)
04 2nd place
05 2nd Place (Enter Howard)
06 2nd place behind us! (Enter Hamels)
07 WIN DIVISION! (and have been players ever since!
Why are those Div Ranks important? Because you compete with your OWN division to make the playoffs and while a wildcard is a way in you can’t win the wildcard unless you have even a half a chance to beat teams in your own division first. Being the 3rd best team in the NL east COULD mean being the third best team in the entire league when you have a juggernaught like Atlanta and a good NY METs team that you face more than any of the NL wilcard competition does!
Being last in your division gives you better picks than everyone else IN your division and therefore able to build a team in the manner you suggest which lets a team like Atlanta go from worst to first and a team like Phillies go from last to second with the arrival of Rollins on the scene in 2001.
Rollins was the one who brought the LEADERSHIP that made the Utleys and Howard selections successful. Howard was one of those don’t think much longshot picks and if he didn’t hit bombs was not thought of to be anything but a defensive liaility and strikeout machine. This is why he fell as far as he did. Were they Smart to pick him? If Hindsight is all you use then you might get away with saying that but truth is they had NO CLUE what he would be! He is a baseball version of Tom Brady who everyone said WHO? when his name was mentioned as a selection. Worked out! Not brains but luck!
Utley was a good selection. We might have even taken him if the Phillies didn’t pick ahead of both us and the braves. Did they get him instead of us because they were SMARTER or because they had FIRST PICK?
Hamels was passed on by a lot of teams because of a broken arm he had and durability issues. We took kazmir who would have been a good pick if maybe we had kept him he too got hurt.
Was Hamels a SMART pick or just a risky ballsy pick just as Howard might have been if they knew something about HIM no one else knew and took him in the 1st…
Where you wind up in your own division and where you pick compared to the rest of your division is key to dominating that division and making the playoffs on a regular basis. We would be in a pennant race if we were in the central right now.
We are where the Phillies were in 2003. Did it without having to fall into last place to get Davis (Our Howard), Harvey (our possible Hamels if you don’t want to count Niese) (Wright and Reyes are our Utley and Rollins)
We are exactly at the point where the Phillies were when Atlanta started to decline and Phillies caught up.
And the Phillies since then have been a lot more Omar than what you would admit.
It may take us another year or two to fill in the pieces via trades the way the Phillies did since 2005, but we are not in any worse shape than them despite how bad you want to paint Omar’s tenure here!
Murphy was in 3rd place in batting for the league!
Turner may not be HOF but you have to admit he is a pretty damn good player and at least as much a role player as anything Jason Werth used to be for the Phillies!
Atlanta has pitching and thats what is keeping them in the game. But the toll of winning all those years has produced maybe one or two kids and as a result they have not been able to keep up with the Phillies who haven’t really drafted and produced a kid since Hamels came up and instead have traded what kids they have left for aging veteran pitching to carry them!
A lot more like what you accuse Omar of doing than what you say Phillies did!
The NL east is ALWYAS represented in the playoffs by someone.
And who that is most often is determined by where they picked compared to the rest of the division in the previous 10 years!
In the 80′s Atlanta picked before EVERYONE! Then moved to our Division.
While they were winning the Phillies picked before us! And did right up until the point we made the 2000 WS and had to rebuild a minors mortgaged to make that 2000 WS happen! And in 5 Years we won the Division again! Not by losing and drafting but merely signing some good players so we could draft and still compete.
That plan has paid off with plenty of players that we drafted hitting near or above .300 and plenty of pitching in the MiLs just waiting to be the next Hamels or maybe even the next Lee or Hallady!
WITHOUT giving up wholesale minors to get it!
This team is in the best shape it has been in 20 years!
And if you don’t see that then all I can say it your more obsessed with philosophy derived from a MISCONSTUING of history regarding Atl and Phi, And not really looking at what is happening on the field!
Watch this team play please and tell me they don’t have as much FIGHT as the phillies and Braves and only lack the PITCHING both have, one because it mortgage the minors to get and the other because they promoted theirs about a year or two before our Pitching prospects are ready!
Metsie, Your still not backing up your assertion with facts.
Werth, Victorino, Ruiz and Ibanez helped Philly tremendously to their World Championship team and had nothing what so ever to do with draft placement, at all.
The Phillies KEEPING Hamels while we were BUYERS, for Zambranno was a huge tipping point and the fact that the Phillies got an ace out of that draft while we didn’t, even though we drafted ahead of them is a huge part in why we lost to them two years in a row by just one game.
In 2000 the Phillies did draft in front of us. By one spot. They took Utley we took Billy Traeber. We also gave up our first round pick for Todd Zeile and selected Bobby Keppel in the supplementary round. That was just unlucky right? Howard was a lucky pick and Traeber and keppell were just unlucky huh?
You have to remember that during the period 1998-2007 we gave away FIVE #1 picks, THREE #2 picks and TWO #3 picks to acheive the results that placed us marginally ahead of the Phillies in those years. They kept most of theirs theirs, added others while letting guys go free agent, didn’t trade away prospects for immediate help right now and built up their system.
We spent a lot of our future assets to achieve just slightly more than they did. Their average draft position was 15, our 18. Not a whole hell of a huge difference.
It wasn’t because they had marginally better draft position then we did. They drafted well, we didn’t. Steve Phillips busted on 14 out of 17 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. That’s hard to do. One of his “hits” was just a marginal one too, Aaron Heilman.
And we’re not talking about fight in the team. That’s not the topic although it is refreshing to see after so many years of lazyball. We’re discussing your false assertion that it was many years of losing that enabled the Phillies to draft great players and yet of all the guys who preformed well enough to help them win a World Series all but two of their core guys eight could very easily have been selected by the best team very year and the other two by at least half the other teams in MLB and half of the eight weren’t even acquired in the draft.
Your assertion that the Phillies built up their farm by years of losing is incorrect. After all how could it be when even the Braves or NYY could have acquired 6 of their core 8?
It wasn’t losing, it was smart drafting, patience, development and it came together unlike our plan of “who can we get for these 4-8 positions every year.”
Even if the Phillies had won the world Series every single year from 1995 to 2007 they still could have gotten six of their 8 core players.
How could it have been losing that enabled the Phillies to get those guys?
Had NOTHING to do with the SMART drafting eiter now did it?
They are good horse traders nothing more. They are not GREAT drafters as you have suggested, Not smart pickers!
What place did they pick in the RULE 5 the year they got Victorino?
You keep claiming they are SMART drafters. They only draft 4 guys worth a damn and the rest was all trades (based off the high pick selection of their failures to keep value) that allowed them to be horse traders!
You can ignore that fact all you want but the truth is in a decade they DRAFTED 4 guys and then traded away all their HIGH ROUND FAILED PICKS to get someone good! And could only do that because their failures were high picks to begin with!
Metsie, that wasn’t the claim that you made.
You made the claim that it was all the years of losing that built that team, now your changing horses mid stream and claiming it was done through shred trades.
One doesn’t have to endure a long span of losing in order to make good trades.
So which one was it Metsie?
One also doesn’t need to endure a long period of losing in order to sign an IFA, FA, rule 5 or non tender do they?
No, of course not. One needs only to look at the list that comes out in December to see who might help from the rule 5 or non tender options.
Alou and Castillo were both signed in November. Before the lists even came out.
We’re still waiting for you to provide just one name of a top 10 pick that did the heavy lifting on their world Championship team.
I provided you with 10 names that they received draft picks or prospects for by being sellers in the run up to their World Series victory when you asked for names.
Still waiting………………….
What part of,
‘traded away all their HIGH ROUND FAILED PICKS to get someone good! ”
Did you not understand or ignore?
First of all Metsie it was you stated the “Phillies of today were made from a decade of losing”
That is untrue. They could have won ever single game and every World Championship during that decade and still wound up with 6 of the 8 players that comprised the core of their World Series champion.
Losing had ZERO to do with it.
When I asked you to provide some facts behind your blanket statement you tried to change the subject to Pelfrey having more wins than Hamels.
Then you tried to change your opinion to the Phillies built their team based on shrewd trades (partly true, still no facts offered though)
Now your claiming that they did a bad job of drafting, this during the period that Steve Phillips busted on 14/17 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Man, after that Rollins, Howard, Utley, Hamels sound pretty good to me although the truth be told there were quite a few more than that.
The thing here is not how many make it to the majors, it’s what they do up here. almost anyone can make it up to the Mets. We’ve had PLENTY of guys no one else wanted playing for us in the not too distant past. PLENTY.
The cream of our farm system comes up here and falls flat on it’s face more often than not.
Gomez, Fern, Milledge, Kunz, Pelfrey, Thole, didn’t perform well in their first go around up here.
The Phillies draft for tools. When they hit, they hit big and have the talent to play well on both sides of the ball, not just one.
Davis was a great pick and I have high hopes for him but I don’t expect him to win an MVP come in 2nd, third, fifth and tenth in other years.
Murphy is no Utley, Gee’s been very good but so has the kid the Phills brought up. Ibaenez has been better than Bay, Werth better than Alou, Lee better than Pedro, Halliday better than Santana, Hamels better than Pelfrey, Polanco better than Castillo, Hell, Moyer’s been better than Perez.
Their scouting has run circles around ours and their decision making has been better in judgement and scope of vision.
A decade of losing had nothing to do with any of that.
Yep a decade of losing that netted them top selection in quite a few drafts that they picked LOSERS in and subsequently traded to get the guys they got!
On the FOUR guys they did draft, One was a lucky pick and the others were all in years when they picked before anyone they compete for a playoff against today!
I know EXACTLY what I said…You just keep reading what you want to hear because if you read it correctly you know I’m saying EXACTLY what the truth of their build is!
They got what they got because they had first shot at it while the rest of the division (braves and Us) was competing for a playoffand as a result piked after the Phillies more years than not!
But you go right opn trying to change what I said and interpreting it to fit your argument!
Point is they drafted 4 players in a decade in years when they SUCKED miserably and the rest of the time when they had first choice picked badly and then traded it away to get the guys they SHOULD have picked if they were as SMART as you make them out to be!
Making shrewd trades has absolutely ZERO to do with draft position.
ZERO.
The guys the Phillies traded away for better players were guys like Marlyn Bird, Michael Bourne, JA Happ, Kyle Drabek, Josh Outman, Travis d’Anaurd and Adrian Cardeanas, Ramirez, Aumont, Gillies, Cozart and Singleton and the book has hardly even been opened on most of them and those guys came from ALL different rounds in the draft and were available to anyone regardless of draft positioning.
Anyone. Even the defending World champions drafting last. Multiple times.
The Phillies were also able to provide a lot of their bullpen unlike us in Matson, Kendrick and waiver wire acquistion JC Romero and added to their core with three players who played great for them and cost not a nickle and came from neither trades or the draft in Jason Werth, Shane Victorino and Carlos Ruiz.
Keep moving the target Metsie. Won cause they lost, Pelfrey has more wins than Hamels, won because of trades, got “lucky” in the draft, what’s next?
The simple fact are losing had ZERO to do with the Phillies last four teams. They built up a deep and talented farm and after they got guys up here started wheeling and dealing to get better and had the horses to do so. Anyone could have done what they did. Even us. We started wheeling and dealing before we had the horses.
SURE IT DOES!
The higher those players were drafted the higher their trade value is!
A top overall pick is worth more in trade than some 32nd pick that has the same MiL numbers!
If you don’t think so then you are clueless!
Just look at what the Phillies did with Billy Wagner. They traded a 6th round pick, an IFA and a domestic amateur free agent to Houston for him, has him for two years, let him go as a FA and collected a 1st and supplemental round pick. Got Kyle Drabek with the first rounder who was the biggest part of Halldiay and Cardenas who was the biggest part of Blanton.
Compare that to us giving away a #1 pick to get Wagner and then trading him for Chris Carter.
Hmmmm. Roy Halliday or Chris Carter?
Tough choice.
That has all to do with smarts and zero to do with draft position.
Since your trying to change the subject I will assume you have conceeded on the point we are talking about.
You want to talk about what they did with Wagner? How many picks did they give up for him? Three got back Two? Stockpiling Picks? What place was the pick they got for Wagner again?
But better yet….
Lets talk about what they did with:
Tom Gordon
Jon Lieber
Cliff Lee
and those other years since they last won the WS that caused them to have NO 1st round pick…
I figure if you can change the subject at whim so can I!
Since I already won the point that occurred before your change of subject I have no problem beating you on your new goose chase of revisionist history.
The Phillies traded one pick for Wagner, a 6th round pick. Clay Buckholtz along with an international amateur free agent and an undrafted American amateur.
ONE pick (a 6th rounder) and two undrafted amateurs. Not the 15th pick in the first round like we did. Then after two years of Wagner they got a first rounder and a supplemental round pick so, lets review,
Gave up 1 6th round prospect, Two undrafted free agents, got 2 years of Wagner and then received back one 1st round pick and one supplimental pick.
We gave up a #1 pick and then traded him for one year of a DH.
They turned their two picks into part of Roy Halliday and Joe Blanton, we cut Carter at the end of the year.
Spin that.
And while your spinning that perhaps you could someday get around to providing just one top 10 pick the Phillies got for losing in the prior decade that was a big part of their world Championship team.
We are still waiting…………………….
Well some of those guys they traded were drom the first round Adam Eaton and Gavin Floyd but way more were from the 4th, 6th, 8th. 10th ect. Way more.
In other words they were players every single team had multiple chances of drafting regardless of their prior years records which you claim is how they came to build there team.
The fact is most came from rounds in which everyone could have drafted them. Even Phillips. But Phillips only got two worthwhile players in his entire six years of drafts in all of the rounds.
How are you going to deal from the farm when you give away so many 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks and then bust on all but two of all the others?
You can’t. Phillips did trade what he had but by trading for Alomar, Vaughn, Billy Taylor, Mike Bordick, Jeremy Burnitz, their shelf life was too short to accomplish anything.
The simple fact of the matter the Phillies built their team and it had ZERO to do with losing in the prior decade. ZERO.
And before they started trading they sold off quite a few players for prospects or draft choices. They were SELLERS. Among the guys they let go were their best player Bobby Abreu, Curt Schilling, Scott Rolen, Pat Burrell in order to beef up that farm so they could wheel and deal.
Losing wasn’t a requirement in order to do what they did.
You have not won the point you have avoided the point, as you always do.
Your claim is baseless, even you recognize that. When you asked who the Phillies sold I provided you with TEN names. When I asked you to tell us who the Phillies drafted that played a big role on their WS winner with all the picks they got for losing you couldn’t provide one, not even one, Then you segued into Pelfry having more wins than Hamels and then switched to the Phillies won because of trades instead of high draft choices.
You have failed miserably at even attempting to prove your flawed point. That’s because you can’t. Hence the change in direction.
Your wrong, your point is wrong, your now in full scale retreat and by not even attempting to come up with one single name to prove your point you have proven yourself to be a QUITTER.
NO YOU HAVE
JON LIEBER
TOM GORDON
CLIFF LEE!
Any chang off those three is a capitulation on your part…explain their genius in those moves please or why when THEY do it it is genius when we do it it is dumb.
If you can’t you lose!
Plain and Simple!
Wrong again Metsie. You can’t dictate terms that make your pointless point valid.
The Phillies did not add any top 10 picks that few teams could get their hands on in the draft that helped them win a World Series.
Any team, top 10, bottom 10 or right in the middle could sign free agents. You don’t need a decade of losing before you can sign any of them. Where do you get that idea from?
You can’t defend your statement that “the Phils were built by a decade of losing.”
Worse than that you didn’t even put up a credible effort.
You quit on your opinion, you quit on yourself and you quit on all of us.
Your not only wrong about your point but your a quitter too.
You did!
You made giving away THREE MiLers a better deal than ONE for the SAME PLAYER!
Giving 3 is better than giving one in your warped MiLers need to be hoarded world apparently?
Giving away a first round pick is a cardinal SIN unless you are named the Philliies!
Seems you have a pass fail bar that moves like a duck in a shooting gallery depending on where you win up in your discussions…
I know being a moving target makes you less likely to get shot but it doesn’t make your point very well either because you contradict yourself 4 or 5 times in a debte trying to dodge bullets!
And everyone else sees this, it’s not like your old statements are covered up by your new ones so I don’t know what you think you are accomplishing other than showing everyne you just argue whatever point you think you can and when it doesn’t sell change the subject and hope no one noticed!
They picked HIGH in the draft for a decade!
Out of all those picks they got Utley and Hamels!
The rest were all busts they hosetraded (due to their remaining value due to where they were selected) to get guys they did NOT draft by wholesale 3-1 trades or by giving up 3 first rounders to get a player in WIN NOW mode. The same thing you accuse Omar of doing!
You have both APPLAUDED and INDICTED the move based on who made it!
Moving target…but lost argument!
And Metsie the your assertion that Turner is doing for us what Werth did for Philly is just laughable.
Turner is a good guy to have on your team. Versitile enough to play 2B and 3B can knock in a run, even has 3 HR’s but on a World Championship team he’s a back up. Plain and simple. On a team with a monster offense he could be a starter but on 25 out of 30 teams he’s a back up, in his prime he’s a back up.
Good guy, good waiver wire pickup, a hell of a lot better than signing Castillo at 32 to a 4 year deal sure but even in our lineup he’s a guy who gets pitched to.
Did I say picks? No I did not. One pick, a 6th rounder, one IFA and one amateur free agent. One pick total for Wagner.
No subject change here. You brought up the subject change when after I disproved your ridiculous theory about draft positioning being what made the Phillies.
You veered off course to a new theory. Now it’s trades. It started out that the Phillies drafted before everyone else, that’s why I brought up the Wagner chain.
See you can’t fill future needs and trade from the farm when you give away so many 1st and 2nd round picks like we have, however if you acquire a lot of guys that don’t cost picks, bundle them with a guy you drafted, make a trade for a Wagner and then collect 2 picks on the way out you can get good play now and good play later.
By giving away a #1 and then trading him for Chris Carter you cannot sustain anything.
But back to your original incorrect theory before you switched horses midstream when I asked you for proof of said incorrect theory……………Draft position caused by losing did not have a single thing to do with how the Phillies built their World Champion team. They could have done the exact same thing if they had never lost a single game all decade less Utley and Hamels, but by drafting consistently well enough to acquire so many good players they would have more than made up for it.
Three Minor Leaguers for ONE MLB…What would you say if Omar did that?
Are your going to man up and answer the questions involving what Philly did for
Tom Gordon
Jon Lieber
Cliff Lee
Or are we playing “what I don’t acknowledge can’t hurt me” or “hide and go change the subject” game you play on a daily basis?
Since you feel compelled to ignore the tough questions I’m just going to ignore you until you man up and explain those guys and WHY Phille it smart in those cases for doing what OMAR did and you have complained about!
I love what the Phillies did to acquire Wagner. Two guys that didn’t cost them a nickel to acquire and a 6th round pick. That’s a great trade in and of itself.
To then get two years out of Wagner and pick up a #1 pick and a supp pick is a grand slam.
Great job on both ends by the Phillies.
I wish Omar had gone about things that way.
Tom Gordon and Jon leiber is everything is hate in the way of player acquisiton. Predictably it failed for them too.
On the other hand when you already have your team assembled spending a #1 on one of the best pitcher in the game is something I believe in. Another good job by Philly there.
But again, I asked you to provide us with some names of guys who did the heavy lifting for the Phillies that they got as top 10 picks due to so much losing. You did finally provide a couple of names but none of them were anyone the Phillies drafted.
The issue is settled due to your not defending your position. I’ve asked you over and over to provide us with some names of the guys the Phillies drafted before anyone else had a chance to get them who led the to the World Series.
You have responded by not responding. Your in full scale retreat and trying to cover it up with smoke and subterfuge.
In short you’ve quit.
So you like giving away three MiLer for one starter?
I gave you the list…EVERY PLAYER they took in the 1st round not named Utley and Hamels!
Did you need it spelled out for you?
And please quote whwre I said top ten picks please?
I said they sucked and picked high I never said they picked top 10 did I?
More fantasy by you trying to change what I said so you could argue with me!
Your usual tactic!
So you admit they did three times what Omar did twice.
And BOTH times Omar did it was the same situation as Phillie was in when they did it!
So I guess it was smart for Omar to do it too and as a result all your bluster about his blundering is just bull that only applies to Omar not any other team that does it!
Did what three times? Sign free agents and give away 3 #1′s, two #2′s and a #3?
Trade a 6th round draft choice and two undrafted amateurs for a closer and then pick up two first round draft choices when he left?
Metsie it’s very difficult for us to follow what your saying. No one at my house can figure it out.
As best as I can recall this discussion began because of your incorrect assertion that it was all the losing that Philly did that allowed them to draft so early every year. Now it doesn’t mean that?
Then you pointed out that Pelfrey has more wins than Hamels. Then you switched the argument to the Phillies were good at trades, then you pointed out some free agent signings and now it’s that the Phillies didn’t have early draft choices.
No one at my house can figure out what your talking about and none of those other issues have anything to do with a prior decade of losing.
Pelfrey’s win totals have nothing to do with the Phillies won lost percentage a decade ago. Winning teams as well as losing one’s can make trades and sign free agents.
If you can’t defend your position just say so.
The simple fact is that the Phillies won loss percentage had ZERO to do with them acquiring even one single player before anyone else could that played a big role in their winning the World series. If it had you would have named that player, you didn’t even try in my opinion because you know, as we all do, no such player exists.
The work the Phillies did and the strategies that they employed to get to and win a World Series were done entirely irrespective of their won loss record in the prior decade.
We are all dumber for having read your undefended and groundless opinion that “the current Phillies were made by their previous decade of losing.”
Please excuse me I need some rum.
Yep Sign Free agents and gave picks away!
And anyway you slice it they gave up three MiLers for Wagner!
Something you have said time and again is BAD to do unless of course Tag has deemed you a GENIUS and can do whatever you want cause he will say it’s smart!
Done racing in circles you told us all what Omar did and said it was bad, I gave you MORE examples where Phillie did it and you said it was good…
You going to keep talking out of both sides of your mouth just go aheasd and when you have come to a consensus on your contradictory opinions regarding the SAME MOVE we can talk about whatever your Schizophrenic mind has finally decided on!
The Phillies drafted Utley #15 of the first round. Clearly that means they had a better record than 14 of the 30 other Major League teams.
The Phillies drafted Hamels with the #18 pick of the first round. That means the Phillies had a better record than 17 of the 30 Major League teams.
Jimmy Rollins was drafted in the 2nd round. That means every single Major League team could have drafted him. Every single one.
The Phillies didn’t get any of those three guys with a top 10 or top 5 pick earned through having a terrible record. Two of them were obtained with slightly under or slightly over .500 records and every single team had a shot at drafting Rollins as they did at everyone else who played a big role in the Phillies World Championship.
Howard (5th round) Ruiz IFA, Victorino rule 5, Werth non tender.
None of them had even the lightest thing to do with draft placement. Not even the slightest.
Your making it up to fit your agenda which is that the Phillies sucked for years and because of that got to pick up all these top talents before anyone else could draft and it’s not even remotely true. Most of their players who led the way didn’t even come from the first round. Two who did came from right smack dab in the middle.
I’ve asked you to provide the names of those Phillies who did the heavy lifting who came to be acquired because of all the losing they did beforehand as you stated and you have yet to back your false assertion with even one name.
I’ve given you TEN names of guys they subtracted off the Major League roster in return for draft picks or prospects several of whom were among the best players in baseball (Abreu, Schilling, Rolen)
Where are the names of the guys who led the way for the Phillies who they acquired with high early first round picks? 15 isn’t high, it’s right in the middle. 18 isn’t high, it was earned through having a WINNING record.
Still waiting for all those names Metsie…………………..
Oh they picked 15th so they must have been a GREAT team then?
What was the winning percentage in 2000?
.401!
Truly a middle of the road team eh? You claim we truly are awful now and we hover around .500!
In 2002 they had a .497 Winning percentage. Better, but then again the only reason Hamels was available was because he broke his arm and lots of teams didn’t want to take the risk on him, especially when there were guys like Grienke, Fielder, Saunders, Kazmir and Swisher there to be taken instead!
And I do also find it odd how much you pump up Hamels as if he is a cy young god despite the fact he has never won it and has never won more games than Pelfrey has in any single season with that JUGGERNAUGHT you keep touting as the unstoppable bullet!
His beat year (2007) he went 15-5 with a 3.39 ERA. He’s having a good year this year so MAYBE that changes…
Still avoiding the question Metsie? You stated that the reason the Phillies built their World Championship team was because of draft placement from all those years of losing and yet you refuse to provide the name of even one single player drafted in the top ten that provided a big part of their World Championship team.
When you aked who the Phillies got rid of off their Major League roster I gave you the name of TEN players. TEN. That they got first and supplemental round draft choices or prospects for.
The simple fact is that you are wrong about the Phillies building their team through many consecutive losing seasons that resulted in them drafting at the top of the list. Maybe you got them confused with the team they beat in the World Series.
Nice try bring Hamels up to obscure the issue and the fact that you cannot back up your opinion with even one single name.
Fact is Hamels is considerably more highly regarded around the league than Mike Pelfrey, something that should be patently obvious to even the most casual baseball fan and really a career ERA of 3.38 in that tiny little band box compared to Mike Pelfrey’s 4.45 at Shea and Citi should provide a the clue you really need to know.
But again, nice try at avoiding an answer that would back up your false statement even the most minutely.
Next up I’ll be debunking you contention that the Braves were built by draft placement from their “down” years of 2006-2009. A period of time that saw them play overall just 6 games under .500, and really after a span of 13 Division Titles in 14 years how can you begrudge them a small period of re building? After all 13 Division Titles in 14 years is 8 more than we have in fifty.
I will leave you with this before I embark on destroying your assertion that the Braves were rebuilt upon draft placement.
The two things that worked out the worst for the Braves were the two things we do constantly. Fork over #1 draft choices for aging, over the hill players.
And you still avoid their ranking where they got all those picks they traded to get the guys you think they were smart to trade for!
Showed you the rankings…You refuse to take note of them because they fly in the face of your REVISIONIST history of the Phillies build…
They are dominating the NL East.
They picked before the teams they are beating in the NL east…
Note they haven’t beaten anyone else in the league!
Except once!
T, WHAT PHILLY HAS DONE SUPERIOR TO US IS EXHIBIT PROPER PATIENCE SINCE THE BEST METHOD IN BASEBALL TO GET A SUPERIOR PERFORMANCE OUT OF A MIDDLIN’ AMATEUR PICK IS REPETITIVE FERMENTATION ON THE FARM, PATIENT DEVELOPMENT AS THER OLDER DEBUT AGE OF THOSE STALWART HOMEGROWN TALENTS U MENTIONED AS PASSED OVER BY MANY EARLIER ‘PICKERS’ SEE THIS
PLAYER DEBUT
HAMELS 23 YRS OLD
HOWARD 25 YRS OLD
ROLLINS 22 YRS OLD
RUIZ 27 YRS OLD
UTLEY 25 YRS OLD
COMPARATIVELY TO OUR PROMOTEES:
PELFREY AGE 22
DAVIS AGE 23
REYES AGE 19
THOLE AGE 23
WRIGHT AGE 22
T, THIS, IMO, IS ONE OF THE PERKS OF REPRESENTING AN AREA WHERE THE BASEBALL FOCUS IS FAR FROM A PRIMARY CONSIDERATION LAGGING BEHIND FOOTBALL,BASKETBALL & HOCKEY AS OPPOSE TO AN EPICENTER OF BASEBALL FERVOR. NESTLED ALONGSIDE THE ETERNALLY CONTENDING, JUGGERNAUT SPENDING, MOST SUCCESSFUL TITLE HOLDING FRANCHISE IN MLB HISTORY. MAKING SUCH PATIENCE A LESS APPRECIATED ASSET.
CONSIDERING HOW BOTH THOLE(1B) & WRIGHT(SS) WERE PRO CONVERSIONS TO CATCHER & 3B RESPECTIVELY THEIR PERCOLATING TIME MOST LIKELY SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXTENDED TO POLISH THEM FURTHER, ELIMINATING SOME MLB LEVEL GROWING PAINS.
True ’62. Agree completely. They didn’t try to rush the process by bringing guys up here too early and they didn’t begin their build up by forfeiting draft choices and trading prospects as their first step.
They traded, or let go as FA’s many players OFF their Major League roster and made quite a few good choices for players that didn’t cost them draft choices or prospects.
They didn’t give up #1 draft choices for 40 year old OFers or closers. They got All Star performances from two OFers who cost them nothing to obtain, one of which then left behind two #1 draft choices to help sustain their success and another who might do the same.
Exactly the opposite of what we did and the joke of it all is they got the better play by far by giving up nothing then we did by giving up a #1 and a #2 pick for Alou and Bay.
We drafted Kazmir the same year they drafted Hamels. We tried to rush the process and got nothing, they rode Hamels to a World Championship.
We lost a catcher to rule 5, they picked up a CFer in rule 5. One who also went to All Star games and got MVP votes.
We never got MVP votes out of anybody we drafted in the 2nd or 5th round. They got two guys who won MVP’s drafted in the 2nd or 5th round.
The year we signed Alou we did so before SF had to decide about offering arb and didn’t even wait to see who the non tenders or rule 5′s would be.
About the patience thing though the guy who drafted and signed all these guys was fired. Ed Wade. So patience hasn’t been in long supply anywhere.
There will always be lunatics screaming from the mountaintop about not adding to your teams future, about taking away from your teams future but the fact is the time to do that is when you are extending your teams run, not trying to get it going.
The simple fact is that in NY you don’t have to win every year but you do have to win sometime. By constantly trying for the quick fix we have just inured that we will never win.
Not until we build it up first by not sacrificing the future. Because we’ve done that every single year for 13 straight years now we have to sacrifice some of the present. In order to insure our future.
T, ANOTHER MEASURE OF PATIENCE IS IN EVALUATING DIRECTIONAL CONSISTANCY OF THE FLD MNGT & GEN’L MNGT TURNOVER RATE AS WELL AS CONTINUITY FACTOR IN THE SELECT 13 YR PERIOD U CHOSE AS PERTINENT THE METS HAVE UNDERGONE 10 VITAL CHANGES IS CRITICAL MNGT POSITIONS 5 FIELF MNGRS & 5 GENERAL MANAGERS WHILE PHILADELPHIA HAS 7 SUCH COURSE CORRECTIONS 4 ON THE FIELD & 3 IN A CORNER OFFICE ALL EXCESSIVE WHEN COMPARED TO THE MOST SATBLE IN THE DIVISION, ATLANTA WITH THEIR 2 FIELD MNGRS & 2 GENERAL MANAGERS WHILE STILL EMPLOYING ONE OF EACH(COX & SCHURHOLTZ) IN THEIR “THINK TANK”. THAT’S THE ULTIMATE IN PATIENCE & STABILITY. TALK ABOUT YOUR LIFE SENTENCES. HELL, ATLANTA’S QUINTESSENTIAL GM JOHN SCHURHOLTZ EVEN SACRIFICED HIS SON TO IMPROVE HIS TEAM’S FORTUNES. FOLLOWING ATLANTA’S PROGRESSIONS IN HIERARCXCHY IS AN EXERCISE IN CIRCLES AS SCHURHOLTZ WAS PRECEEDED AS GM BY COX WHO AS FLD MNGR BEGAT FREDDI GONZALEZ, HIS SUCCESSOR WHILE BOTH SCHURHOLTZ & COX STILL REMAIN AS INTEGRAL CONTRIBUTORS TOWARDS THEIR SUCCESSOR’S FUTURE. BEGRUDGINGLY, ONE MUST ACCEPT THE BRAVES AS ONE OF THE TRULY REMARKABLE FRANCHISES IN THE NL IF NOT ALL OF BASEBALL, EVEN MANAGING TO SURVIVE COMPETITIVELY THROUGH THE TRASDITIONAL “KISS OF FRANCHISE DEATH” THE TRANSFER FROM INDIVIDUAL OWNERSHIP TO CORPORATE OWNERSHIP. WHILE MAINTAINING RELEVANCY DESPITE MAINTAINING A MIDDLIN’ PAYROLL THROUGH AN ESCALATING PAYROLL ENVIRONEMENT.
I PERSONALLY TEND TO CLASSIFY MLB PAYROLLS INTO 3 CLASSIFICATIONS STYLIZED ON OUR PRESENT SOCIO-ECCONOMIC MODEL AS UPPER, MIDDLE & IMPROVERISHED THE DETERMINING VALUES I’VE SET ARE AS ’11 COMMENCED:
UPPER: 100M+ 8 TEAMS (NYY,BOS,CHC,PHL,NYM,DET,CHWM,LAA)
MIDDLE 80-99M 10 TEAMS (SF,MN,LAD,STL,HOU,SEA,ATL,COL,BAL,MLW)
IMPOVERISHED <80M 12 TEAMS (TB,CIN,KC,TOR,DC,CLV,AZ,FL,TX,OAK,SD,PIT)
ATLANTA HAS EXCELLED ON ROI FOR OVER 20 YRS SOLIDLY ENSCONCED NEARLY DEAD CENTER OF MIDDLECLASS PAYROLLS. FORTUNATE TO BE GEOGRAPHICALLY LOCATED IN A TEMPERATE CLIMATE WHICH IS VERY POPULATED WITH A PLETHORA OF AMATEUR BASEBALL ORGANIZATIONS ATLANTA, UNDER SCHRHOLTZ' CREATIVE DIRECTION SETUP AN EXTENSIVE NETWORK OF LOCAL AMATEUR "SCOUTS" INCLUDING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A COMMUNICATIONS STRUCTURE TO STREAMLINE REPORTS ON LOCAL ATHLETES FROM LOCAL REPORTAGE OUTLETS INCL DOWN TO PENNYSAVER, FREEPRESS, NEIGHBORHOOD NEEWSLETTERS, THUS THEY "FOLLOWED" THE LIKES OF FRANCOEUR & McCANN AS AMATEURS FOR YRS PRIOR TO DRAFT SELECTION ENABLIONG THEM TO PARE DOWN THEIR PRO SCOUTING EXPENSES FOR TRAVEL & DIGGING UP "UNDER DISCOVERED" TALENTS IN "THE BUSHES".
“they didn’t begin their build up by forfeiting draft choices ”
They didn’t?
does the name Jon Lieber ring a bell?
How about telling us who they took in the 1st round of the 2003 draft? Hmmm you mean they gave away a pick?
And then pray tell us who they took in the 2009 draft? Oopps they did it again!
They did it all again THIS YEAR when they signed Lee!
They have given away nearly half the first round picks they had in this decade!
But you say they didn’t do those kinds of things.
If Alderson isn’t allowed to spend money, this will be the rotation. The only additions will be cheap throwaway types like Capuano and Young. We better hope Harvey keeps developing.
again, 2014 omar.. wheeler, familia and harvey, along with others, that’s the year he’ll make a move or walk out due to aging fast syndrom..
alex68 and jessep, do you have any idea how immature and ridiculous your non stop bickering is? Please do us all a favor and just agree to disagree. Your constant feuds on here are rather annoying and you drown out the good comments.
i apologize.. alex in CT
You guys all look like children. Pointless arguing!
Donal would love it…Would love to extricate himself from the hole he dug himself into!
Excuse me? It’s not my fault you fail at basic reading comprehension.
Good Job proving “Stop Fighting’s point.
GROW UP already
METSIE, THIS COMMENT FROM U WAS UNREPLYABLE; BUT BECAUSE I’M SICK & TIRED OF ALL THIS BS REWRITING OF CIRCUMSTANCES BY U & OTHERS, I’M PASTING IT HERRE SO AS TO KEEP THE TRAIL APPARENT. YOOUR COMMENT:
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August 10, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Yep Sign Free agents and gave picks away!
And anyway you slice it they gave up three MiLers for Wagner!
Something you have said time and again is BAD to do unless of course Tag has deemed you a GENIUS and can do whatever you want cause he will say it’s smart!
Done racing in circles you told us all what Omar did and said it was bad, I gave you MORE examples where Phillie did it and you said it was good…
You going to keep talking out of both sides of your mouth just go aheasd and when you have come to a consensus on your contradictory opinions regarding the SAME MOVE we can talk about whatever your Schizophrenic mind has finally decided on!
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MY RESPONSE, BOTH NYM & PHL WERE DESPERATELY IN NEED OF A NEW CLOSER. BOTH SACRIFICED “YOUTHFUL FUTURE HOPES” TO ACQUIRE WAGNER & LIDGE RESPECTIVELY, WE SACRIFICED AMATUR PICKS WE’D YET TO INVEST IN WHILE PHL SACRIFICED “KNOWN” PRIOR INVESTMENTS. AS PHILLIPS & DUQUETTE COMBINED TO LEAVE A BARREN CUPBOARD IN AN ARID FARM SYSTEM THE OPORTUNITY TO ACQUIRE THE YOUNGER, LESS ACCOMPLISHED LIDGE OR A NON F/A CLOSER WAS PRECLUDED.
WHICHEVER WAY U WOULD HAVE PREFERRED; BOTH TEAMS USED THE MEANS MOST AVAILABLE TO THEM; UNLESS YOU’VE CONCLUDED KEEPING LOOPER & THE PICKS THE SUPERIOR MINAYA OPTION WHICH I STRONGLY DOUBT & WOULD VEHEMENTLY CHALLENGE.
IT’S TRUE THAT THE NYM OVERALL DEVELOPMENT OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN INCOMPETANTLY MANAGED SINCE CASHEN’S 1990 RETIREMENT WITHOUT A TRAINED TRORCHBEARER TO SUCCEEED HIM.
TO CONTRIVE THERE WERE ACTUAL ALTERNATIVES TO RESOLVINMG OUR CLOSER ISSUE IS ILLOGICAL & SPECIOUS AT BEST.
SINCE THE RULES GOVERNING F/A COMPENSATION WERE ALTERED TO INCLUDE DRAFT PICKS, THE OPORTUNITIES TO MEANINGFULLY RECONSTRUCT A MLB ROSTER SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH SEVERLY UPGRADING A FARM SYSTEM HAS RELIED PRIMARILY UIPON OVERSPENDING ON AMATEUR SIGNING BONUSES aka”EXCEEDING SLOT”, CONCEDING TO EXTREME FIRST ROUND DEMANDS FOR FIRST ROUND TALENTS CHOSEN IN SECOND OR LATER ROUNDS, SEE NYY,BOSOX.
M62 you get absoloutly NO ARGUMENT from me on those points. I don’t defend or applaud the Wagner move made by Omar, I merely UNDERSTAND why he did it and understand the reason that when you are a contending team and your closer is blowing saves wholesale it is ok to be a buyer and get one. Evenif it costs you a 1st rounder who will be here in 4 years because if your competing that 1st rounder is going to be so lowly picked he is not much more than a 2nd rounder when all is said and done!
We are not arguing my feelings on the Wagner trade here. What we are arguing is Tag’s who seems to have two different and inconsistent opinions on the same act depending on who made it!
Omar gives up 1st rounders for Two player = Evil Incarnate!
Phillie does it for three = SMART GENIUS’
I have no problem with someone saying the Mets were mismanaged but I do have a problem when someone cites BAD ACTS that they dismiss when some other team they think is SMART does the same thing.
If Tag would make it less about Omar, didn’t use Phillies as the SMART example and focused on the guys in between Omar and Cashen he might find I would be totally in agreement.
I look at our MiL now and look at all those rookies who are currently on our MLB roster and fighting till the end to try and win games and I have to say Despite ALL of those supposed blunders Tag thinks Omar made, we have a pretty good team right now that if it stays healthy could easily beat the Phillies and Braves with a little FA ACE help in the starting rotation!
METSIE, TO ME, THE SIGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN OUR FAVOR Rze. PITCHING IS AGE. BOTH PHL & ATL HAVE IT IN DROVES ON THEIR RELENTLESSLY SUPRISING ROTATIONS. I DISAGREE WE’LL REQUIRE F/A SPing BOOST WITH ANY LUCK AT ALL… BETWEEN HARVEY,WHEELER, FAMILIA, GORSKI, NIESE, GEE I BELIEVE 2014 WILL RETURN TO DLUSHING BASEBALL ANALS AS “THE YEAR OF THE HOMEGROWN PITCHER” IN MY PERSONAL CORRES[PONDENCE WITH MY 2 GROWN KIDS, MU CPOUSIN & A SELECT LOCAL TRANSPLANTED NYM FAN, I DID A QUICK & DIRTY STRAIGHT COMPARISON BETWEEN OUR FORMER ACE COME ’14(SANTANA) & THE OPENNING DAY SP I FORSEE FOR ’14(NIESE) I USED 2010 FOR JOHAN & 2011 FOR JONATHAN TO DISCOVER THIS:
PITCHER | W-L | IP | H | K | BB | ERA | BAA | WHIP | AGE | COST/SALARY| SANTANA |11-9 |199.0|179 | 144 |55 |2.98 |.240 |1.18 33 | $21,000,000
NIESE |11-9 |147.1|158| 129 |43 |4.23 |.273 |1.36 | 25 | $ 452,000
CERTAINLY SANTANA’S INDIVIDUAL STATS WERE SUPERIOR; BUT ,EANINGFUKL TEAM STATS(W-L) RE NOT ONLY COMPARABLE; BUT IDENTICAL IN FEWER IP & CONSIDERING NIESE MAY STILL HAVE 7 OR 8 GS LEFT. HIS OVERALL TEAM ROI SHOULD BE OUTSTANDING! AS HE HONES HIS INDIVIDUAL KILLS UNDER WARTHEN’S WATCHFUL GUIDANCE, TO ME, HE PROJECTS AS A SUPRIOSINGLY CAPABLE SUCCESSOR AND BY ’14 HIS VETERAN STATUS SHOULD BE WELL ENTRENCHED TO ADD SUPPORTIVE STABILITY TO HIS MORE RAW TALENTED BETTER ENDOWED “BROTHERS-IN-ARMS”
METSIE, I HOPE U’D AGREE THAT NIESE’S CONTRIBUTIONS TO DATE PROJECT BETTER THAN WE CAN ANTICIPATE GETTING FROM A NON-YOP SJELF F/A.
PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY FOR NOT PROOFING THE ABOVE; AS I RUSHED HITTING SUBMIT FOR FEAR OF A POWER LOSS IN MY CURRENT STORM RIDDLED ENVIRONEMENT. MEA CULPA!
While I agree and conceed we have a lot of talented pitchers we could rely on, A young staff needs that Older Veteran, someone that they can talk shop with and learn the Subtleties of approaching batters and what they need to do to get MLB hitters out.
If Santana was not dealing with his own issues and if Dickey was not just a knuckleballer and had a similar frame of referenece they would both be fine for that role. But a knuckleballer is ill suited to teach approach to a fastball/curve/change type pitcher, there is no inside outside in Dickey’s game, Change of speeds yes but thats about where the similarities end.
Santana will be going through enough of his own troubles and would not be able to lead by example as he sorts himself out.
My suggestion (if I were Sandy) would be to go and get an ACE to anchor the rotation, Move Sanatana to the Pen as our possible closer (he has the head for that and maybe not the durability to go 6 or 7 but 2 or 3 is perfectly reasonable)
I have high hopes for Harvey and Holt but they still will need that one guy to turn to when they get out of sorts. And I just don’t see that guy on our team. Pelfrey would be worse than no one, Young (if resigned) might serve there but he is also the one most likely to get scrapped in favor of the kids right now. Maybe Capuano is that guy but I would use Cap as part of the package to get that ace myself.
We are going to be competing with two teams with a battery of starting pitching. We may not be able to match that for another two years or until Harvey, Holt, Mejia reach their potential (maybe not until Wheeler gets here even!) But we need to at least try and close the gap on the Phillies and Braves in that area. And going after one ACE (Trade, FA I don’t care!) would do that AND give us that guy those kids could turn to INCLUDING Niese, Gee and Pelfrey (If Pelfrey isn’t traded!)
METSIE, MY FRIEND, U REALLY NEED TO BROADEN YOUIR SCOPE OF REFERENCE BEYOND THE PRESENT. TYHAT’S TOOE DIMENSUIONAL; BUT BROADEN YOUR CONSIDERATIONS TO INCLUDE PASTS & FUTURES AS ALL ARE IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS DURING RECONSTRUCTION PROJECTS.
USING YOUR DICKEY REFERENCE FOR INSTANCE, I’D SUSPECT HE MAY BE FOUND SOMEWHERE IN THE BACKEND OF THE PEN COME ’14; BUT HE’S NOT ALWAYS BEEN A KNUCKLEHEAD RATHER HE’S DONE SOME OF HIS MOST PERSEVERING WORK TOILING AS A CONVENTIONAL PITCHER LACKING A CRITICAL TENDON. CERTAINLY HE WAS RATHER MEDIOCRE AS A CONVENTIONAL PITCHER WITH A PHYSICALLY INFERIOR WING; HOWEVER, HE STILL PERSERVERED AGAINST ALL ODDS & THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT LESSON TO BE LEARNED FROM STRUGGLES THAT CAN’T BE FOUND IN SUCCESSES. IT’S LIKELY THE REASON THE MOST OF THE BEST COACHES ARE NOT HOFers FROM THEIR [PLAYING PROWESS WITH MANY RARELY ESCAPING THE BUS ROUTES OF THE MINORS LIKE OUR OWN TC & RENOWNED MiLB PITCHER, LASORDA. La RUSSA IS ONE OF THESE JOURNEYMAN TYPES. THROUGHOUT BASEBALL’S VOLUMINOUS HISTORY THE MOST EFFECT GUIDANCE HAS BEEN IMPARTED BY FORMER SCRUBS NOT STARS, TO WHOM EVERYTHING, CAME NATURALLY EASIER. THE STARS OF THE PAST CAN’T IDENTIFY WITH A STRUGGLING CONTEMPORARY PLAYER, THIS ISN’T JUST BASEBALL, LOOK AT MICHAEL JORDAN’S NON PLAYING BASKETBALL CAREER.
RA DICKEY BY NATURE OF HIS CONSTANTLY BEING “ON THE BUBBLE”, BELEAGURED AS A CONVENTIONAL PERSERVEERED DUE TO HARDWORK & DESPERATION. IT IS WHY YHE KOUFAXES MAKE BETTER CONSULTANTS THAN COACHES. SANTANA IS LIKELY A FUTURE CONSULTANT WHILE DICKEY WILL BE A COACHJ SOMEWHERE MLB OR MiLB.
WHY MIKE & NOT GREG MADDOXIS THE RENOWNED PC.
But 62 can Dickey bust a guy inside with a fastball?
Knowlege is far easier to pass on when SHOWN than can be passed by mere words. Words still need be pictured in one’s mind. Seeing it leaves no picturing needed.
I could TELL you how to build a TV studio in about 20 Mins.
But you probably still would not be able to do it for a year on your own!
But if I show you how to do it by letting you watch ME do it then you will pick it up in about a month!
Knowing is only half the battle. You can know but still not be able to teach! Demonstration of concept is as important as the concept itself. And thats true for any dicipline not just TV and Baseball.
Dickey can’t really demonstrate to a power pitcher how to use that power. He can tell him but he can’t show him!
METSIE, BASEBALL IS RIFE WITH PERTINENT “OLD SAYINGS” THEY GET TO BECOME ONE BY BEING PROVEN ACCURATE REPEATEDLY OVER TIME. HAVE EVER HWEARD THIS ONE?
THOSE WHO CAN…DO!
THOSE WHO CAN’T…TEACH!
BTW,IN ’86 ONE OF OUR MORE SUCCESSFUL PITCHING ROTATIONS, THE “OLD MAN” VET WAS OJEDA @ 29 SINCE THE REST OF THE CONTINGENT WAS
GOODEN, 22
DARLING, 23
FERNANDEZ, 23
AGUILERA, 25
BTEW, THE TIME FOR SHOWING SOMEONE HOW TO BUST ONE INSIDE ISN’T A MLB ROTATION. TRY ST. LUCIE METS OR SAVANAH FOR LEARNING THAT BASIC CRAFT, BY THE TIME MAJORS SLOT IS EARNED IT ISN’T A METTER OF ‘KNOWING HOW’ AS MUCH AS ‘WILLING TO’! THE TIME FOR SHOW & TELL IS LONG PAST
You can not learn how to pitch to MLB pitching in the MiL!
It’s a whole different ballgame!
This is why more PROSPECT starting pitchers fail than should!
They got the stuff but they overthrow, Get into bad habits, NEVER learn to bust a guy inside, Pitching inside and out, Go up the ladder…
All of that is learned on the MLB level.
You know what they teach them in the Minors? Throw Strikes and don’t walk people!
Good lessons nonetheless but If all you do is throw strikes when you get the MLB you know what you will do? Give HRs wholesale!
I know people think the OLD ways are too old but because they fell out of favor is why there have been no Nolan Ryans, Tom Seavers, Bob Gibsons in the last 20 years and why Guys who throw crap always seem to win the Cy Young!
Too much emphasis on NUMBERS and not enough attention to NUANCE!
Which is what truly seperates the Champions from the Chaff!
T, MY FRIEND, U LIKE METSIE CAN’T SEEM TO FORGET THIS WAGNER ISSUE & BOTH OF U ARE TRYING TO CONDEMN MINAYA FOR NOT DOING WHAT, AT THE TIME, WAS AN IMPOSSIBILITY. YTOUR PERTINENT COMMENTARY WAS ALSO UNREPLIABLE; BUT I’LL REPLICATRE THE PERTINENT PIECES HERE, THENM RESPOND WITH “FACTS IN EVIDENCE”
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August 10, 2011 at 6:56 pm
I love what the Phillies did to acquire Wagner. Two guys that didn’t cost them a nickel to acquire and a 6th round pick. That’s a great trade in and of itself…
I wish Omar had gone about things that way.
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T, UNFORTUNATELY THERE WAS NOTHING VALUABLE “IN DEVELOPMENT” OMAR COULD USE TO TRADE, SINCE NEITHER ED WADE NOR PAT GILLICK HAD DECIMATED THE PHL DEVELOPMENT PROCESS/PRODUCE THE WAY PHILLIPS & DUQUETTE HAD. WE’VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED BETWEEN US, IF U RECALL, WITH THE TRADING OF KAZMIR, PROMOTIONS TO WRIGHT & REYES THE SOLE REMAINING ‘RANKED’ COMMODITY ON THE FARM WAS LASTINGS MILLEDGE, WHOM MOST TEAMS HAD BYPASSED IN THE DRAFT DUE TO SCANDALOUS AMATEUR BEHAVIOE INCL A HS SEX SCANDAL. BY THE TIME LOOPER NEEDED REPLACING PITCHING GURU/GM PETERSON HAD ALREADY ORDERED THE DECIMATION OF THE MARGINAL PITCHING ASSETS HOARDED BY PHILLIPS DURING HIS “REIGN OF ERROR”