Aug
31
2011
31
2011
Mets Release Arizona Fall League Roster
An article by Hojo's Mojo
The Mets released their roster for the Arizona Fall League on Tuesday. Reese Havens, a first-round pick in 2008, headines a list that also includes third baseman Jefry Marte, outfielder Juan Lagares and pitchers Collin McHugh, Brandon Moore and Taylor Whitenton.
The two biggest names heading to the AFL this season are mega-prospects Mike Trout of the Angels and Bryce Harper from the Nationals.
The season kicks off with Opening Day on Oct. 4 and wraps up with the annual championship game Nov. 19 at Scottsdale Stadium. The popular Rising Stars Game is scheduled for Nov. 5 at Surprise Stadium.
About the Author: Rob Johnson
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here’s why, baseball america and the people who followed what they say at all times needs to be carefull, this is a link in mack’s mets about what baseball america said about jefry marte:
http://macksmets.blogspot.com/2009/02/mets-prospect-3b-jefry-marte.html
now, this is why things can go from good one year and bad the next.. prospect usually turned into suspects.. with that being said i truly like this kid and hopes he becomes an all star for s down the road.. i was hoping he’d play in the DWBL
alex: but you also understand that this is why scouts and GM’s have to be careful also right? Projected a minor leaguer is not an easy task for anybody.
Nobody has a perfect record, we can look at Baseball America’s failures and point fingers but how often are they correct more than an average fan? That’s why they are in business. They give you & I more of an insight into the minor leagues of each team than each team is willing to go on the record and give you.
You have to also remember Baseball America doesn’t just employ their own scouts. They rely on others within the industry to help dictate their rankings.
Yep and when they are dead wrong no one calls them on it and they don’t get fired just release another list and hope no one notices or cares why the guy they said was top 10 last year is not even on the list anymore!
And when a guy who never makes their list makes the All Star game it is dismissed as a simple OVERSIGHT!
Because one guy getting in under the radar does not invalidate the entire process. If you focus on say Pujols (who no one saw coming) and say “SEE THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS WRONG! THESE GUYS SUCK!”, you miss the forest for the trees.
And they do often address that one guy they were high on burned out. It would be impossible not to in this day and age.
And most people who scout prospects will tell you its more art than science.
Right More ART than Science…
Which means it isn’t any more valuable than anyone else’s opinion, yet it is being used to judge other people’s art!
Kinda like saying Picasso sucks because Rembrandt doesn’t think Cubism is all that great!
It’s not the list that I take issue with…
It is its USE as a bible for GM success and drafting ability instead of the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE of the guys he drafted!
IE Omar Sucks because none of his kids (Like Daniel Murphy who was hitting over .300 and 4th in the batting title race) made the Baseball America list and therefore were not considered PROSPECTS!
You know like all the stuff you have said time and again!
You use the list to say well we don’t have any kids in the top 50 so Omar must be an awful drafter, But all it means REALLY is we could have 10 Pujols just waiting to be promoted!
I have to disagree with you on this Metsie. Baseball America’s opinion is more valuable than someone else’s opinion if by someone else you mean the average fan.
Baseball America has been around for at least the last 20 years which is how long I know of them and probably even longer. They are a well respected source on prospects.
If you read their FAQ section they describe how they do their prospect ratings.
“Our prospect ratings are based on our own research and conversations with scouts, managers, instructors, front-office personnel and others in the game. Obviously all of that input is very important, but we make the final determination about where players fit on our various lists.
We pay the most attention to a player’s long-term potential, and his chances of reaching that potential. A pitcher who could be a No. 1 starter usually rates higher than a guy who’s seen as a No. 4 starter, for instance, even if the second player has performed better in the minors. Others who rate prospects often pay more attention to a player’s present value—what he can do for an organization right away.
That’s why even players who haven’t lived up to expectations yet can be so high in our prospect ratings. Based on their ability and potential, if they put it all together they could be major league stars. Another thing to pay attention to is a player’s age. A 19-year-old who’s putting up decent numbers in Triple-A is much more impressive than a 22-year-old who’s tearing up a Class A league.
Of course no one can ever predict with certainty whether a player will reach his potential or whether an unheralded player will come through and surprise everyone. But we think Baseball America has a solid track record, which is why most people regard us as the best source of prospect information in the business.”
Their ability of them to be able to talk to scouts, managers, instructors, front-office personnel and others in the game allow them to make a more informed opinion then the average fan.
Their opinions are not the be all end all but they are a good source of information and have been a long time for a simple reason. Cause they do a good job on gathering prospect information.
I’m not talking about the average fan though MNJ.
The average fan is the one USING BA as a reason to bitch about a GM!
Which do you think is the better judge?
BA or the results of the players the GM picks?
BA is just ANOTHER OPINION which may or may not be more educated than the average FAN’s opinion but probably not more educated than the GM who picked him!
And they base it WHOLLY on Stats and how those stats correlate to PROJECTIONS!
A Kid who has great numbers who is not projected to have them hardly EVER gets mentioned!
The average fan pays for a subscription to Baseball America?
“And they base it WHOLLY on Stats and how those stats correlate to PROJECTIONS!”
So, you’ve never actually read a BA scouting report. Or any scouting report.
Sure I have Donal…I just happen to THINK for MYSELF, not just spew back what other think like you do…
PARROTS SPEAK! Doesn’t mean they can actually TALK though!
Just reggurgitate whatever it hears without regard to how truthfull, correct it is or how logical the thing it heard and mimics actually is!
No, you haven’t. To say they base their entire reports on purely statistical data is proof of that.
“I just happen to THINK for MYSELF”
I have no idea what is going on between your ears, but to call it thinking would devalue the word.
“PARROTS SPEAK! Doesn’t mean they can actually TALK though!
Just reggurgitate whatever it hears without regard to how truthfull, correct it is or how logical the thing it heard and mimics actually is!”
I use several sources (not just BA) to draw conclusions. I look at what they are saying, how they came to such conclusions and how line sup with all the evidence.
Yes, there are certain sources I trust more than others. Mainly because they are reputable and reliable and show you the process.
You, on the other hand, seem to form all of your opinions in your colon.
Yeah I know in order to know what is going on between my ears REQUIRES something to be going on between yours….And all indications are your dead between them!
Because your just a parrot of things you read!
Wow, you are just so lost. But, keep going. Talking a lot is a great way to cover up your lack of understanding.
Yeah you go right on thinking that Parrot!
One day you will even get a cracker for parroting the truth!
metsie,
i don’t even know why you waste your time.. seriously.. is hard to ignore his idiotic comment and lack of baseball knowledge.. but let him be man.. he’s not worth it.. i do understand why bayonne and maniac and other insult him..
No Jessup, I’m saying Baseball Americas evaluations are USELESS until the player gets to the MLB and proves himself!
NOT being on their list is not proof the player is worthless and BEING on the list is not PROOF that he is any good at all!
FMArt was one thier list for year…is he any good? Is he DESTINED for the MLB anytime soon? Has he done squat the few times he was given a chance? NO!
I say FMart is not the great player EVERYONE including baseball america played him out to be!
WHY? What is my BASIS for that?
WHAT I HAVE SEEN in his time as an MLB player!
You guys use the list a PROOF POSITIVE the guy was a mistake or success…andit’s a pretty poor way to evaluate when you consider how many guys make their list that never make it in the MLB! And how many who don’t who become All Stars!
“Sure I have Donal…I just happen to THINK for MYSELF, not just spew back what other think like you do…”
I guess I’m just confused. Are you trying to say that your view of every minor league player in baseball is better than Baseball America’s evaluations?
Who is right more often with regards to prospect rankings, Metsie on MMO or Baseball America?
“No Jessup, I’m saying Baseball Americas evaluations are USELESS until the player gets to the MLB and proves himself!” — So then aren’t you saying all scouting reports of players from high school, college and the minor leagues are useless as well? If player A is on baseball america’s top list because scouts, managers etc talk him up then aren’t you negating the entire scouting system by claiming it’s useless? Careful, that “m” word may be closer to your heart than you think.
“FMArt was one thier list for year…is he any good?” And you don’t think the Mets scouts and Omar Minaya touting FMart as the next big thing had ANYTHING to do with that? I think your biggest problem is you have no clue HOW they are gathering their information. If their information comes from the people within the industry that work with these players, then isn’t it the best info you can get?
Baseball America didn’t make FMart a big deal, the Mets did. And by the way, the second BA is expected to project “injuries” is the second it turns into the Almanac in back to the future 2
“So then aren’t you saying all scouting reports of players from high school, college and the minor leagues are useless as well?”
No I’m saying they are useless in judging a GM’s skill!
Which is what you guys do with the BA list!
Whats on that list isn’t even good enough to judge what the PLAYERS THEMSELVES will do on an MLB team!
The ONLY thing those reports are actually good for and the ONLY one who is helped by them is the COACH who has to fix the bad and accentuate the GOOD!
But as a report card they are pretty much useless and as a predictor of who will be good in the MLB even MORE USELESS!
I don’t recall seeing it said that B.A. base their projections wholly on stats. As far as what I have read they base it on their own research and conversations with scouts, managers, instructors, front-office personnel and others in the game.
Now of course if your point is that you dislike fans that use B.A. as a source to critique players drafted by a GM. I am not going to tell you that you shouldn’t dislike that. As far as I am concerned that is an entirely different beast all together.
But in regards to B.A. my point is that their opinions are more valuable than the average fan for the reasons I stated.
Most educated opinions are better than the average fans though wouldn’t you agree? LOL
I’m just a little fed up with those who DON’T THINK and let others do the thinking for them and then stick to someone else’s thoughts despite the fact that thier MLB performance belies whatever it was that BA came up with regarding that player…
Ike Davis was never a top 10 prospect yet he was in the running to ROY last year.
Not sure Daniel Murphy ever even made the list yet he was 4th in the Batting title until he got hurt.
FMart has been on thier list for YEARS yet has yet to produce at the MLB level.
It may be a more educated opinion but it isn’t proved to be the the more CORRECT assesment it misses an AWFUL lot of players who turn out to be quite productive and includes a ton of players who NEVER make it to the MLB!
Thats the only point I’m trying to get accross. The source is fine provided it is reliable. BA isn’t all that reliable, more reliable than the average fan YES?
But empirical evidence used to judge the folks who pick them? NO! Because they miss too many that ARE good and list too many that aren’t!
Understood, though I still don’t agree with some of what you said I see where your coming from on this.
For the record I have said more than once that Minaya’s legacy has yet to be written. That will be determined in the coming years.
Now regarding what Minaya did from 2005 through 2010 in regards to player development he has very little to show so far. The best a starting pitcher he drafted has done so far in the bigs for the Mets can be argued is Pelfrey’s 2010 season. Other than 2010 Pelfrey has been somewhat of a disappointment in my opinion.
His best position player in that span? Ike Davis’s 2010 rookie season or if you prefer Murphy’s 2011 season take your pick.
Davis while promising the book is still out on if he will actually have a great career (my hope is he will) and Murphy is a player that can do 1 thing well when healthy it seems, hit for average.
In any case by the time his prospects started to reach or get with reach of being MLB ready he had done enough of a poor job as a GM that it was too little too late to save his job.
Minaya simply failed at doing what he was hired for and that was winning a W.S. and time will tell how well he did for the Mets in regards to player development. So far at the MLB level there is not much to point at.
Well you see MNJ this is why me and you never digress into the stupidity that me and Donal get into…
While we disagree on the usefulness of the source (and I’ll be clear BA is a decent source just not the bastion of perfection that should be used to judge a GM’s performance) BA is not a barometer of PASS/FAIL in regards to drafting and MiL systems, It’s just an INDEPENDENT scouting firm that is available to the public, no BETTER or WORSE than the guys the teams have hired in judging what WILL be a success and what IS a failure. It is not the TRUE test in my book as others make it out to be.
You and I both agree that Omars book is not closed and it’s still can go either way on his being a success or a failure. Won’t know until the REAL TEST is given to all the players he brought in and they show a TRUE pass or fail.
In the case of a BA list, if the GM for a team manages to have 50% of the guys (out of 50 picks) make it to the MLB without ever appearing on BA’s list, And another GM has 5 guys on it and only those 5 guys actually MAKE it to the MLB. It is UNREASONABLE to say he was the better GM because he got 5 of the 50 guys he picked right while the other guy got 25 good players out of it!
I prefere to judge the GMs and their drafts based on what actually makes it and thrives in the MLB.
BA is attempting to be Miss Cleo!
Its a nice read and it might offer information that is helpful to someone who wants to judge but it is a P/Poor litmus test to determine how good a GM did!
Cause the list is as wrong as it is righ and has no better track record than the average GM does!
It’s just an observation but the true test is what they do when they finally come up!
You notice how you have to keep lying and twisting what others said in order to make your point seem valid?
That say a lot about what you are trying to say.
“In the case of a BA list, if the GM for a team manages to have 50% of the guys (out of 50 picks) make it to the MLB without ever appearing on BA’s list, And another GM has 5 guys on it and only those 5 guys actually MAKE it to the MLB. It is UNREASONABLE to say he was the better GM because he got 5 of the 50 guys he picked right while the other guy got 25 good players out of it!”
So, if you draft 10 guys who suck but you promote them all, that means you had a successful draft?
By your definition, Eddie Kunz was a successful draft pick.
“You notice how you have to keep lying and twisting what others said in order to make your point seem valid?”
You talking about youself again Donal?
That seems to be what you do on a daily basis from what I have read from you in the last year or so…
Just make crap up, change the subject, produce lies as fact and when none of that works call them crazy!
For not buying a single word of the crap you post!
“You talking about youself again Donal?”
That was so lame. You owe everyone who reads this an apology.
“That seems to be what you do on a daily basis from what I have read from you in the last year or so…
Just make crap up, change the subject, produce lies as fact and when none of that works call them crazy!
For not buying a single word of the crap you post!”
Odd how I addressed the central point to your rambling post and you completely ignored it.
Odd indeed.
Oh don’t like it when your ignore act gets played on you?
In my fingers is the worlds smallest violin…It plays for you!
metsie,
as usual the core is with you, but i have to say, you are wrong here, they are wrong but they give us a better insight of a player because they actually watch them play and hear from scouts, the actual fan don’t.. what you rather listen to, BA scouting a player or donal or jesseP scouting a player?? i mean, is OBVIOUS you won’t listen to them instead of BA..
my point was that ppl shouldn’t fall in love with everything they say, because not always translate to reality.. they project a player based on how he does, but sometimes the body of that player doesn’t hold up and becomes injury prone.. ie havens, fmart.. etc.. so therefore is hard to judge a player AFTER a situation like that happens, in my case, i am pulling HARD for eric niesen to become good for us, but he’s been held and have to re create that “prospect” value he once had
“as usual the core is with you,”
Isn’t MNJ part of this “core”? Because he’s contradicting a lot of what Metsie is saying.
Are you really referring yourself in the third person trying to use an imaginary group to try and build yourself as some kind authority over the comments section of a fansite?
first of all, MNJ and i go wayyyyyyyyyyyyy back, before you were prob born, second of all, don’t worry how i call myself of what the core is, focus on baseball, i don’t see the big deal of some of yous trying to find out what the core is, maniac and MNJ have explained this for me, if you weren’t around tough luck, also, to give you this little piece of info, just because MNJ and i are cool doesn’t mean we can’t disagree on topics, WE unlike you, jesseP and other’s RESPECT each other’s comment. is been like that since prob 2006 if i am not mistaken.. so mind your business and remember this is the type of comment that lead to maniac (CORE) say this to you:
Met Maniac BRB I have to got take a Donal. (Just relieving myself with humor)
Yes, they did explain it. You seem to not understand it. I have yet to see anywhere that shows you have the authority to speak for a group of people banned from Metsblog.
I have seen nothing to show that those people see themselves as a group which has the same viewpoints on so many things that they would employ a spokesperson for themselves to express such opinions.
Its just a sad attempt by a small, lonely person to try and give himself a false heir of authority in the comments section of a fansite.
explain where have i said anything about a group or anything like that you f*ing loser???
this is exactly why maniac, bayonne and others call you names.. moving on….. if you don’t like my CORE comments, don’t read’em, reply to them and move on… i do the same when i see most of your post.. move on man.. are you also bother because the CORE hasn’t salute you??
You keep saying things like “the core salutes you” for statements you like.
And you and the other Brown Shirts call me names, threaten and curse at me because you are insecure children with conversational skills slightly bellow a Furby.
I am actually entertained by your “core” comments. They serve as insight to your sad little world.
It’s nothing more than an Opinion Alex…plain and simple.
To use it as the SOLE JUDGE of success means your not actually THINKING for yourself your just GUESSING and using them as a source to validate that GUESS!
Scouts are usefull to judge RESULTS. But they can’t tell you if the kid is good at applying what the coach is teaching him, can’t tell you if the kid has a work ethis or not, can’t say if the kid has the personality to be a MLB player and can’t tell you one way or the other if the kid IS MLB CALIBER, just project that he COULD be!
I have no problem with someone looking at BA to get that scouting report that is not readily available from the FO that owns that guy, It’s fine as a information source but not as a proof of Pass or Fail in regards to if he was a good pick or not.
There are 100s of kids who PROJECT to be superstars in the MLB and maybe 3 or 4 a year actually make it to the MLB who wind up being good but not Superstar players.
And the number of those kids who DO get projected and become superstars is about the same as those who do not get projected and become that!
Baseball america is wrong as often as it is right!
It’s just that they don’t get FIRED when they are wrong…
Like a GM does!
fair enough.. 100% right on.. but again, sometimes is not all about talent, hard work, dedication, study.. all that are some of the things you can’t see on a player, for example, peyton manning and tom brady.. brady was nowhere near manning’s level, yet, can you argue that they’ve had similar careers? brady slightly better? yet one was the #1 pick, the other the 199th!!! go figure..
but again, i don’t think a gm gets fired based on bad drafts only, many other thing go wrong on a team that can lead to the firing itself you know.. in omar’s case, injuries, bad contracts to s**** players, no depth, more bad contract to even more S**** players, all those played a role in his firing. .
So you want Baseball America as a publication to be fired?
If there was no baseball america how would you as a fan evaluate prospects? Be careful because the word you may use is “stats” and then things could get ugly.
The way it’s been done for YEARS!!!!!
By seeing what they do once they get promoted!
Cause history is FILLED with guys who looked great in the Minors and then wound up working at McDonalds three years after getting promoted to the Majors!
You see YOUR the only one who actually cares what happens in the MiLs…
In fact you care MORE about the Minors than you do the actual team as evidenced by your jumping for joy at getting rid of anyone on the MLB squad worth a damn to fill up those Minor League rosters you seem to be obsessed with!
As long as Buffalo is winning the AAA Crown you could care less if the MLB squad is sitting in the cellar!
To you it’s all about the Minors the MLB is just meant to be used to keep them full!
Which is why you put more stock in Baseball America than you do with the actual MLB result!
Metsie:
“The way it’s been done for YEARS!!!!!” — So since before 1980 you’re saying? Perhaps your next great idea could be to get your news the way it has been done for years by buying a newspaper and not going on blogs?
“By seeing what they do once they get promoted!” — So you want to wait 5-7 years before talking about anybody within the Mets minor league system? So you think when Nats fans talk about Bryce Harper they are wasting their breath? When they get promoted, they aren’t really prospects any more you know…
“Cause history is FILLED with guys who looked great in the Minors and then wound up working at McDonalds three years after getting promoted to the Majors!” — And history is filled with guys who made it to the big leagues and wound up working there also. What’s your point?
“You see YOUR the only one who actually cares what happens in the MiLs…” — I am. See this is a PERFECT example of how you attack me based on nothing but lies. I have said more times than not that I DON’T care as much about what guys like wheeler, nimmo do in their individual games. I care about the PROSPECT of having them develop, and why shouldn’t I? But I don’t pay attention to daily results in the minors. So, fail.
“In fact you care MORE about the Minors than you do the actual team as evidenced by your jumping for joy at getting rid of anyone on the MLB squad worth a damn to fill up those Minor League rosters you seem to be obsessed with!” — See above, fail again.
“As long as Buffalo is winning the AAA Crown you could care less if the MLB squad is sitting in the cellar!” See above, fail again. I couldn’t tell you what Buffalo’s record is right now if you gave me multiple choice.
“To you it’s all about the Minors the MLB is just meant to be used to keep them full!” Fail Fail Fail.
See all you’re doing is standing on a pedestol and pretending to be this voice of reason when everything you say is wrong and unreasonable.
I put stock into Baseball America because they have existed for over 30 years, and get better information than you or I can get regarding the minor leagues. Their information comes from the people responsible for actually scouting these players. why don’t we just scrap the entire minor leagues since apparently it fails too much to discuss?
Until they get promoted to the MLB they have achieved NOTHING!
Getting on Baseball Americas list does not help the team in any way!
To suggest otherwise is foolish!
How many games has Wheeler won for the Mets so far?
He’s on the list isn’t he?
If he gets hurt or sucks from this day forward is a good selection? Was he a good trade?
Say yes to either and we need not discuss the situation any further you will have proved that you don’t care what they DO just what you think they MIGHT do IF YOUR LUCKY!
You seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding the concept of a prospect.
Really? What is a prospect?
Then tell us all!!!
Do they help the MLB team win?
Do they make the MLB team Beter?
Do they do that by getting listed on Baseball America’s list?
Or does it REQUIRE they DO SOMETHING IN THE MLB before they contribute anyting at all?
You like having PROSPECTS and will trade MLB contributors to get them!
I Like having good MLB players INSTEAD!
Which is why on the Trade Wright thread 29 People agreed with me, not with you!
I think the fact you actually went to count how many people “agreed with you” says it all doesn’t it?
No I noticed when my post was bright yellow and I couldn’t understand WHY!
Aparrently a lot of people seemed to like what I said there.
Have you ever gotten that much positive response on any of your posts?
There are a LOT of people that seem to be frustrated with the attempts made by some to get rid of EVERY PLAYER who is worth a damn….
Alex could have only voted once so I have to assume I struck a chord there wouldn’t you?
Well first of all, that’s not true. Users can vote more than once, because I have noticed the option to vote lit up because my cache gets cleaned out every time I close my internet.”
no you can’t.. or at least to my knowledge you can’t.. and i am sure metsie will not vote for himself 20+ times..
he said davis was not top 10, you pegged him to be #62.. does that even make sense? he was in the running for ROY, finish top 10 yet there were 61 players at that time “better” than him is what he’s saying.. i mena, you’re not that dumb are you??
“Users can vote more than once, because I have noticed the option to vote lit up because my cache gets cleaned out every time I close my internet”
Well then you must be clearing your cookies. And even if you did once you posted something you would get a new one and be locked out from voting. Thats how the internet works!
And I see you again trying to make this about me hating prospects. I don’t hate them of course just don’t think they are important to winning games in the MLB…at least UNTIL they actually make it to the MLB.
What you don’t get and WILL NEVER get because your all about Monday Morning GMing is what a PROSPECT really means.
Lets review…
Definition: PROSPECT – a probability or chance for future success.
Hmmm that would seem to apply to ALL kids in the Minors not just the ones BA decided to list!
Jason Heyward was one of the BA darlings and even won ROY last year,
He’s currently hitting .221!
Tejada, Evans, Thole, and Turner , guys you say are not worth a damn because they never made BA’s list are ALL hitting better than Heyward aren’t they?
SO what does that tell you about the PROSPECT label?
Fmart was prospect, Ahead of Davis, who is worth more to the team and in trade pray tell?
He was ahead of Niese too, Which one actually has an MLB career?
Lastings Milledge was ahead of Mike pelfrey in
2006 according to BA, WHich one has a Major League career?
In 2004 Kaz Matsui was ahead of Kazmir and Wright how many more All star games did Kaz go to compared to those two?
Paul Wilson was ranked the #2 Prospect in 1996. How many Cy Youngs did HE win?
a PROSPECT label is nothing more than a GUESS!
and BA seems to rate guys who have NEVER made it higher than guys who did!
So what does that say about your SOURCE and LITMUS TEST regarding GMs?
and finally you mention Wright and Reyes yet neglect to mention all the PROSPECT who Omar drafted who HAVE made it such as:
Turner, Thole, Tejada, Murphy, Davis, Niese, Pelfrey, Gee Most of which have never been recognized by BA as a prospect but are currently playing for an MLB team while the guys they DID list are still languising in the MiL system which is GOOD for us because if they were here and successful you would trade them off in the name of saving Wilpon Money and for more chances to see the mets listed on BA’s list which seems to be more important to YOU than winning ball games in the MLB!!
Crow? ROFLMAO!
You are the one who said the Mets have NO PROSPECTS and need to trade off everyone on the MLB squad to change that didn’t you?
YES YOU DID!!!!
SWALLOW THAT and get back to us to tell us how good your own bull tastes!
I notice that you all of a sudden changed the list to JUST mets not the entire MLB which is the list YOU USED to trash our MiL system!
You are just so bad at this you really should just give up Jessup!
Well first of all, that’s not true. Users can vote more than once, because I have noticed the option to vote lit up because my cache gets cleaned out every time I close my internet.
Secondly, you know what I find most amusing about your distinct hatred for “prospects”? It’s that this team that you want to build around right now, wouldn’t exist without the hype and development of 2 prospects named Wright & Reyes.
There was just as much hype if not more about those 2 ESPECIALLY if you take into account the lack of social media, than there is about ANY Mets prospects right now… how’d that work?
Tell me you NEVER got excited about the potential of those 2 kids coming to the big leagues. If you say you didn’t you either weren’t paying attention or you’re a liar.
Your idea that prospects shouldn’t be discussed until they get to the big leagues is old school enough to be “old man crazy.” That’s not a world ANYBODY lives in. GM’s tout their prospects, scouts tout prospects, media tout prospects, and so should fans.
When your team is about to possibly finish its 3rd straight under .500 season and you are choosing to ignore the minor leagues for any hope, then you must be one miserable fan.
Baseball America exists because its a publication that gives you and me insight into the potential future of their favorite team. The Mets are a deeper club than 25 players.
In your perfect world, you would have never heard of Wright & Reyes until they made an impact in the bigs.
By the way… “Ike Davis was never a top 10 prospect yet he was in the running to ROY last year.” — Metsie
2010: Ike Davis Ranked #62 in Baseball America’s Top 100. Fail.
Reyes was ranked 3rd in 2003. Wright was 24th in 2004.
Baseball America’s prospect list fails more than it succeeds but so do MLB GM’s. The catch is baseball GM’s don’t send a list to their fans of their top prospects.
Great link by the way Jessup!
It makes out point almost PERFECTLY!!!!!
TOP PROSPECTS
OF THE DECADE
2000 Alex Escobar, of Out of baseball
2001 Alex Escobar, of Out of baseball
Yeah we need more guys like that!
ROFLMAO!
metsie,
i wasgoing to embark on a rant just about now, but i see you took care of everything i needed to say.. i mean, wow.. i got nothing else to say other than:
THE CORE SALUTES YOU!!!
jesseP, again, you mention our prospects as of last year and BA has brad holt ranked #5..
i like brad holt, but the way is looking, it seems BA screw the pooch.. doesn’t it?? yet minaya will be blame for brad holt, not BA. i think that sums up what metsie is saying.. alex 8a and alex escobar, paul wilson, miledge and many, many others have failed miserably, yet, BA NEVER gets blame for that.. the gm’s do. i am not saying to go and blame BA, but i don’t think we should take what their saying about a player to a 100% accountability, they are right about 15% of the player, and that 15% i am mentioning it out of kindness, that can be 4% at best.. wouldn’t you agree??
Oh Alex.
“he said davis was not top 10, you pegged him to be #62.. does that even make sense?” —
It does if you understand Baseball America also projects 100 prospects in baseball. And if Ike is ranked #62 out of every minor league player, unless the Mets have the most amazing farm system ever, there’s a pretty good chance he’s in their Top 10.
“finish top 10 yet there were 61 players at that time “better” than him is what he’s saying.. i mena, you’re not that dumb are you??”
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. But just to answer your question of how dumb I am
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2010/269121.html
Now lets see. Article published by Adam Rubin through Baseball America on November 5, 2009 okay so that means this was BEFORE Spring Training and BEFORE you probably even knew who Ike Davis was.
Top 10 Prospects
1. Jenrry Mejia, rhp
2. Wilmer Flores, ss
3. Fernando Martinez, of
4. Ike Davis, 1b
5. Brad Holt, WAIT WHAT!?! Who is that listed #4? Go back a second!
“4. Ike Davis, 1b”
Wow.
Wait there is more from this shifty Baseball America site!
“Best Tools”
“Best Power Hitter Ike Davis”
“PROJECTED 2013 LINEUP”
“First Base Ike Davis”
Man, Baseball America sure did miss the boat on Ike Davis huh?
Alex, you can apologize anytime you want. Metsie, I know you won’t, you’ll find some way to spin this but you said and I quote!
“Ike Davis was never a top 10 prospect yet he was in the running to ROY last year.”
Enjoy your crow Metsie. Make sure to save some for Alex.
Salute that Core.
Oh Please Jessup you didn’t prove me wromng you just did your usual and picked a different list that removed the rest of the MLB and because of that moved Davis up into the top 10 of a SUBSET of your original list!
Your proof says he was top 10 of METS not BASEBALL!
Which is the list you used to judge Omar!
Nice try dude but I’m not stupid I saw right through your attempt to tinker with the evidence and play switcheroo!
You proved nothing other than you will go to any lengths to prove a point that has been exposed for what it really is…the idle rantings of an idiot who thinks building the Minor leagues is what it is all about and baseball america is the standard bearer and ultimate judge of who is good and who isn’t!
Oh and you seem to think you got me on Turner…
Pray tell does BA only list PROSPECTS who were drafted by the team that owns them?
NO THEY DON’T do they?
Guess who gets the fail YET AGAIN!
This is why you don’t get ANY respect from me because when you get cornered you do what Donal does, TRY and change the subject, TRY and change the Data being used when it is pointed out how bad the FIRST set of data you picked made your srgument WRONG and then ignoring that when your little game is exposed!
Sorry dude but you are a SHAM!
And everyone pretty much knows it!
What does coaching have to do with it?
They are EXPERTS at judging talent according to you!
If they think a kid is GOOD then he MUST BE GOOD according to you…
And if they don’t think he is a PROSPECT he is a BAD Player according to you….
and Build is destroy, Up is down and sideways is straight ahead! According to YOU!
Keep pushing the old bait and switch…
I’ll make this quite UNAVOIDABLE so that even stupid people can see what is going on and can not avoid the point…
WAS IKE DAVIS TOP 10 on Baseball America’s TOP 10 list of ALL MLB TEAMS?
No?
Poof goes the PROOF!
You trash us using an MLB list and when the list is questioned you go and show us SOME OTHER list to say they ARE smart forgetting (because your DUMB) that by them listing him sort of makes your ORIGINAL POINT about having NO PROPSPECTS DEAD WRONG!
So no matter which way you want to take this attempt at bait and switch all your really accomplishing is proving you wrong on SOME POINT you attempted to make!
Either you are wrong about not having any prospects on BA’s list or you are WRONG about saying OH wait we DO have some!
Take your pick we will allow you that luxury!
Be sure to tell us all on WHICH point you prefer to be wrong about!
And your just a Flim Flam man who uses the old shell game to change the FACTS at will when it suits you!
Sorry but you got CAUGHT trying to slip a ball under the shell!
SO from now on lets pick ONE SET of facts and not keep changing them like some magician doing card tricks!
And if you don’t I will be sure to point out to everyone your attempts at slight of hand and the duality of the points you make in a single conversation!
Subterfuge is not ging to work until they add an EDIT button to the posting so you can go back a make changes to keep all the lies you attempt straight!
Bottomline here is you got caught CHANGING LISTS!
And there is no way for you to hide that from the public!
Metsie: I love the fact that you say things like
“Ike Davis was never a top 10 prospect yet he was in the running to ROY last year.”
And then your PROVEN to be wrong by FACTS and you spin it to talk about Alex Escobar. You understand the METS pumped Escobar up right? Just like the METS pumped up the value on Lastings Milledge.
Yet you cannot admit you were WRONG. He was ranked #62 among ALL minor leaguers and #4 among ALL Mets minor leaguers PRIOR to you even knowing who the heck he was.
FACT.
Here’s another good one
“Omar drafted who HAVE made it such as:
Turner, Thole, Tejada, Murphy, Davis, Niese, Pelfrey, Gee Most of which have never been recognized by BA as a prospect but are currently playing for an MLB team”
A) Omar didn’t draft Turner. Fail.
B) Josh Thole: #8 organization 2010, “best hitter for average” Projected 2012 and 2013 catcher
C) Dan Murphy: Only recognition he got was projected 2012 starter. Which isn’t really a slap in the face.
D) Ike Davis: Organizational #4 overall, #62 in entire MILB. Fail.
E) Jon Niese: 2009 #3 in Mets organization, #77 overall. 2008 #8 organizational.
F) Mike Pelfrey: 2006: #36 MILB 2007 #20 in MILB
G) Dillon Gee: Best change and best control 2009. Best changeup 2010.
Yeah baseball America sure did ignore those guys huh?
Are you trying to make a fool of yourself? When you have a thought about something you have no clue on, do you look into it before you stomp your feet or do you just say it and hope nobody can take the 5 mintues to prove you wrong?
“Tejada, Evans, Thole, and Turner, guys you say are not worth a damn because they never made BA’s list are ALL hitting better than Heyward aren’t they?”
Tejada and Thole have been discussed at length on BaseballAmerica’s organization ranks. In fact prior to the 2009 season Nick Evans was ranked 9th in the Mets system. So another “wrongey” for you huh?
But anyway since you asked.
You understand that Jason Heyward is 22 years old right? And that his 2010 season are more productive offensively than any of those guys you list this year? I’m not sure why people like to point to Heyward, he’s having a bad year. He’s 22.
If you’re telling me you wouldn’t GLADLY trade Nick Evans+Justin Turner+Josh Thole for Jason Heyward, then you’re just being a homer.
Heyward is 3 years younger than Evans, 4 years younger than Turner, 2 years younger than Thole, and 1 year older than Tejada.
Neither Turner, Thole or Evans have SNIFFED a full season like Heyward had last year.
I love how you both are failing to realize that Baseball America doesn’t coach these players, they aren’t the training staff, they don’t have any influence over whether they develop.
A critic of them is just that, a critic.
Do you have a Top 10 prospect report that you publish in November? Why not? How about yu go on record every year and tell us who the Top 10 Mets prospects are in the winter and then we’ll compare your success rate to theirs.
Baseball America is a publication to give you insight into your teams farm system. Are you telling me they are the ONLY PEOPLE who thought Alex Escobar was a top prospect? Of course not.
You’re not understanding the concept and the more you dig at it, the more foolish you make yourself look.
Metsie what in the world are you talking about?
“Oh Please Jessup you didn’t prove me wromng you just did your usual and picked a different list that removed the rest of the MLB and because of that moved Davis up into the top 10 of a SUBSET of your original list!”
You claim Baseball America never said anything about guys like Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Josh Thole, Nick Evans, etc.
I prove to you they did, and NOW you want to say Ike Davis was never listed as a Top 10 prospect so that negates their publication? Have you lost your mind?
And when did I say I judge Omar on Baseball America’s Top 10 list in MILB? Are you just making stuff up right now?
what proof do you have that Ike Davis should have been a Top 10 prospect? You knock Heyward, but expect the same projection for Ike?
What are you trying to prove? That it is difficult to project baseball players when they are 18-22 years old? Nobody disagrees. You’re just trying to be smarter than the system and you are not.
Every where you turn you try and say “they didn’t do this” when I prove they did you try and spin it a different way. You can’t simply admit you are wrong because you think you’re superior to Baseball America?
Lets see your Prospect list. Since we’re gonna knock a publcation that’s been around since 1980 lets see your list? Give me the Top 100 prospects in major league baseball please.
I’m done with you Metsie. You are just a bitter lunatic who thinks the world exists in their own bubble. You have no clue what you’re talking about and when you say things and get proven wrong by FACTS you then try and find a way to back up and change the debate.
You said “Omar drafted who HAVE made it such as:
Turner”
That is what you said. I didn’t sign on as Metsie and say it did I?
Then you ignore that and say “Oh and you seem to think you got me on Turner…Pray tell does BA only list PROSPECTS who were drafted by the team that owns them? NO THEY DON’T do they? Guess who gets the fail YET AGAIN!” The Reds and Orioles?
Turner has been traded and then released to waivers and NOBODY wanted him.
Justin Turner is hitting .257 4HR 46RBI .682 OPS at age 26 and you’re wondering WHY Baseball America didn’t have him on their Top Prospect lists?
How is that changing the subject? Just because I prove you wrong and ignorant doesn’t mean I change the subject it just means I’m making your point within the subject look like you have no clue what you’re saying.
You said Ike, Thole, Pelf, Niese, Evans were never recognized by Baseball America. They were. I showed you.
You said Ike wasn’t a top 10, he was within the Mets. Baseball America put Ike’s name on paper before you probably had any clue who he was.
You said Omar drafted turner. He did not.
You say Turner should have been on BA’s Prospect list, I prove you’re speaking out of your bum.
What else Metsie? Your telling me Ike should eb a top 10 prospect in baseball prior to 2010. Why? Because he had a good 2010 season and finished 7th in Rookie of the Year voting? You understand a prospect list isn’t “who will be good this season” right?
You’re just a fool, if you’re so much better than Baseall America then I look forward to your Top 10 Mets prospect list for 2012 and your MLB Top 100 Prospect list. We’ll contrast and compare. You may wanna start getting some plane tickets booked right now, since you also don’t like stats.
I’m not replying to anything on this thread again. You’re a waste, and you continue to say things that have no factual merit yet you attack whenever you’re proven wrong.
I can’t wait to see your prospect lists though.
Baseball America puts out a list of the top 20 prospects in every minor league during the off season. Not every classification, but every league. Pioneer, Appalachain, Gulf Coast, California, Mid West, Sally, Eastern, Southern, Texas, International ect. That top 20 (out of roughly 700) is pretty exclusive company but all told that’s about 260 prospects some of which are at the lowest levels of the minors. Who’s success rate would be great in creating a list of top 20 18 year olds playing in short season rookie ball?
Those top 20 prospect lists are based on tools and performance in the leagues in which they competed. Kids who are young for their league are thought be better prospects than a 24 year old dominating low A ball but who knows? Maybe the 24 year olds stuff translates in A+, AA and AAA but history tells us it generally does not so the list should be looked upon as a rough guide. An educated guess. All based upon projection somewhere down the line, anywhere from a year away to six years away. It makes no accounting of who’s farm system is easy to climb through and who’s is very difficult, nor can it account for injury or any of the myriad of things that derail people in other types of careers.
The fact is when your producing a list of 260 prospects in all levels of the minor leagues every year and there are only 700 or so major league jobs to begin with, right away success ratio is out the window. What these lists are good for is to see who’s performance in each level is mirroring a successful path of players who became big stars, Same age, same level, same basic offensive production, ability to stick at and play well at a particular position, get better as they move up (cut down on K’s, ect)
It would be a little like going to see all the different American Legion teams in your state, talk to the coaches about their players, other teams players. Some kids are clearly standouts, others maybe a little more under the radar, some might be effective now but their skills and tools don’t project to remain the same at higher levels. From there cull the list down to just 20 kids out of 700 and try to put out a list of kids who’ll get offered scholarships to big time college baseball programs or get drafted by Major League clubs. That’s what this list tries to do but again 260 prospects every year and only 700 jobs many of which will be filled by the same guy at the Major League level for 6-15 years and you can see why it’s pointless to look at the one’s that didn’t make it.
Last years post season rosters included a full 25% of players who were at one time on a list of 20 best prospects in one of the minor leagues in which they competed. That’s six roster spots of the most successful eight teams in baseball. Add to that specific need type guys for the bullpen, bench, 4th and 5th starters, an effective starting position player or two who is a decent enough contributor to a winning team like a Carlos Ruiz, Rafeal Santana, Mark Lemke and your really only have about 18 spots for those 6 or so guys left to make that 25% of the roster and those 25% that did, most likely contributed much more to their teams success than the 75% that didn’t. Of course there are surprises. It’s an in exact science, how could there not be? A Brad Holt could get consideration one year and then fall off the map the next. A Dillion Gee could never be considered and yet do an effective job in the Majors yet the chances of a Dillion Gee surpassing a pitcher who was on one of these lists is less likely than the other way around. Clearly Gorski will be top 5 in the FL St League, who saw that coming? It’s a one year snapshot trying to predict ahead of time one of the most difficult things on the planet to predict.
I think some of the thinking about these different prospect lists is looked upon poorly by Met Fans because of some of our expierence with guys like like Alex Escobar, Alex Ochoa, Fern, Havens, Pelfrey but you have to look at the guys who were on those lists in order to see the other side and that’s not best done by looking at only our organization. We have traditionally done a very poor job of scouting, signing, drafting or developing our own talent. Many guys in our top 10 wouldn’t even qualify for other teams to 10′s until just a year or so ago but even a lot of our top 10 right now have big question marks and not just injury ones either. Those are the guys who have to make up for the question marks with superior ability in order to make the list. One guy who did for us last year was Wilmer Flores. No one knows what to make of him because no one expects him to play SS. He’s not good at it, what he is good at is his bat speed. How will that asset play at a different position? Which position will it be? Will he be able to play that position? If that position is 1B his bat will be less valuable than if he could play 2B, 3B or RF.
Look at the top 20 list for each minor league. That shows you who’s standing out right now and who’s doing a good job of scouting, signing, drafting and developing in the context of actual league play combined with a pure scouting projection of their physical abilities to play in the Majors.
fair enough, my point is people (specially here) criticize the signing of a major leaguer who’s already is establish, and is capable of repeating or better the feat accomplish as a player, yet fail sometimes to realize, that drafting this kids doesn’t mean success automatically, most of them don’t even make it to the bigs.. i HATE alex cora and his 4 million dollars he got from the mets and omar, but nimmo got the same and ppl were happy aboout that situation, yet we are not even sure whether that kid will even make it past double A.. just like many of the mets in the past drafts..
Alex Cora is an entirely different type of investment that Brandon Nimmo. Cora was paid 2 M to protect the season from disaster if need be and step in adequately to give guys a day off here and there, pinch hit, be a good solid proffesional for a couple of years whose primary contribution would hopefully be seen about once every two weeks.
Brandon Nimmo was given a 2 M bonus in order to sign with us. He was paid based on his potential to hit, play defense and run the bases for us for 6-10 years on an everyday basis. He may never make it up here or he may make it big, or he could be somewhere in between but if a guy like Brandon Nimmo does make it, he makes it a lot bigger than an Alex Cora.
Cora was more like insurance for the season and Nimmo is more like a speculative stock. The return on investment of just one out of ten Brandon Nimmo’s making it is far higher than 100 out of 100 Alex Cora’s. Which really begs the question, why weren’t the Mets doing this type of thing in the draft all along?
That was considered to be the former GM’s strong suit wasn’t it?
Nimmo signed for $2M. If he went to college for three years, and developed as projected, without injury or decline, he would be in line to sign for around $6M. That would make him a top 10 pick, and the Mets would more than likely not be in a position to draft him anyway. Like you say agee, it’s all speculation.
By the way, our daily Nimmo News:
Rumor has it, Nimmo will be joining 5th round draftee Philip Evans in Brooklyn this week to finish out the Cyclones season.
How can anyone, with a brain cell, click dislike to this comment?
People click like/dislike just by who the poster is without even reading what was said, proving (SORRY MMO), it’s a useless add on.
Yeah WHAT HORRIBLE NEWS, can you believe it, Niimmo will be playing in the NY Area, really dislike that.
Stupid is…………..
I won’t lie. I posted this in part because I knew it would irk certain parties.
Of course, I do think it’s noteworthy to the point where I just may go to Friday’s finale.
Joesmith: “Somebody” once disliked me asking JoeD to check his email.
But how do we express ourselves without the thumb icons?
I have another finger that usually serves my purposes.
The core salutes you……………
oh wait………….
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa