Look Ahead: Spending $ May Not Work

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• The Coop August 3, 2011 at 3:33 pm

  Brian Schneider for the butter pecan factor.
  • The Coop August 3, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    Bring back Francoeur too (kidding)
• will August 3, 2011 at 3:34 pm

  i see you have your excuses all ready to go next offseason when sandyball sits back again and does nothing to improve the team in the offseason, cant say i expected much less from you the apologist.
  • Even Flow August 3, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Can’t expect much from you in life in general from you, the whiner.
    • will August 3, 2011 at 4:10 pm

      i am a whiner because sandy threw in towel this year by tearing out the heart of the team in trading 2 of his best players when they were in it and doing nothing in the offseason to improve the club. sorry you cannot face facts that your hero has done nothing for the mets besides lower payroll, make citi a ghost town and have ratings drop on sny faster than the dow.
      • Even Flow August 3, 2011 at 4:41 pm

        The Mets were in it? LMFAO! The Mets were never gonna be big time contenders with or without Beltran and K-Rod, moron! There was NOTHING Alderson could do during the offseason because there simply wasn’t nothing out there to begin with outside of Type A FAs that wasn’t worth wasting a pick over. Do you have anything new to come up with? That’s like the millionth time you’ve brought up the offseason. You don’t give a damn about the Mets, Beltran, or K-Rod so don’t sit there and try to bullshit. What do you care? Every time you pop up here, it’s to complain about something so you ARE a whiner. Sorry that you have your head so far up your ass…no wait, I’m not.
        • t agee August 3, 2011 at 7:17 pm

          One thing about the Wild Card is that regardless of how good, mediocre or bad your team is a lot depends on the other teams in your Division and how good, mediocre or bad they are.

          With Philly and Atlanta we were a very long shot just to be in striking distance. Compare and contrast to 2006 when all the other teams in the NL East spent 90% of the season below .500. Totally different scenario.

          It’s next to impossible to win a wild card when the two best teams in the league reside in your Division.

          Getting out from under the 17 M K-Rod deal was implicitly understood by both Minaya, k-Rod and his agent. They all knew the ramifications of that vesting option. Picking up a top 50 prospect in exchange for the last two months of Carlos was what a smart organization does. They make decisions sometimes with right now in mind, sometimes with 5-10 years down the road ahead. Both were no brainers.
        • Will August 3, 2011 at 7:18 pm

          The mets have one of the highest paid front offices in baseball and you mean to tell me there was no moves to be made in the offseason to improve the team, if that is true u should hire jessep kid than. You get paid to make the team better and compete for the ws not throw your hands up and say there is nothing to do. Name calling is for people with no argument.
          • Bundy August 3, 2011 at 7:31 pm

            They did make moves to the make the team better, they unloaded KROD and got a high ceiling top prospect pitcher.

            WIN WIN
          • Even Flow August 3, 2011 at 7:36 pm

            “Name calling is for people with no argument.”

            You never had an argument to begin with. You call “sandyball” this, “apologist” that an “argument”? Who were we gonna seriously get last offseason? Cliff Lee? Rafael Soriano? Wasn’t happening. They were broke. Get a clue.
      • jessep August 3, 2011 at 4:24 pm

        Will, please focus on the discussion. I’m glad you wanted Beltran to leave NY and not get a legitimate pitching prospect for him. I think you’re totally wrong because just the idea of a legit #1 pitcher in the rotation is more exciting than finishing 6 games out of the playoffs but keeping Beltran because it’s easy.

        I listed the players for you, don’t tell me there are a lot on the list… tell me who?

        Throwing a general “we have to spend $140m” is a cop out. If there isn’t enough talent out there to spend, then why spend $140m?

        You can be anti-Alderson/Mets all you want but if you can’t come to the table with your own ideas then what is the point? You have the menu in front of you, now tell me what you want?
        • t agee August 3, 2011 at 6:36 pm

          Will will NEVER answer that question Jessep because to do so would prevent him from sitting on the sidelines and criticizing every move the GM makes.

          The first thing everyone has to understand is type A free agents are out. No more of these under performing, expensive, brittle shells of their former selves are being brought in to **** up our present as well as our future.

          That means we’re ordering off the bottom of the menu for a hungrier type of player who’s not on his last legs. This includes another dip in the rule 5 pool, a well thought out non tender or two and perhaps a good fitting career minor leaguer might get a shot. Plan B is the new plan A. I also suspect there could be a trade or two to alliviate the 1B/LF/utility log jam that our system seems to only be able to produce.

          It wouldn’t shock me to see Fern get a full last chance shot either but the only two other AAA potentials, Mejia and Niewenhauss will most likely not be ready until August or September. TJ takes at least a year, Labrum surgery and rehab the same so basically we are hosed. Satin is a duplication of Turner so no help there. Schwinden will be on call, Tejada may be up but no real impact will be felt in Queens.

          In AA we have a couple of guys. Valdespin, Familia and a couple of mid season call ups in Lagares and Den Deker. Realistically no one will be up here until 2013.

          I’d keep Pelfrey, hope he has a big walk year and if not at least get 200 mostly decent innings out of him and then let him go.

          Not a lot of moves that can be made or many guys in the farm for 2012.

          This is the price you pay for going for it every year.
          • METS62FAN August 4, 2011 at 10:35 am

            T, take a very deep breath & have a seat since u & I ate largely simpatico on the future, only I see ’13 much like ’84,85 were,preambles, & ’14 to be our suprise meaningful Season as I’d, assuming no disaterous derailings, we have Niese, #1, Gee, #5 as the “veteran presence” with 2,3,4 directly off our inhouse nurtured for a proper 3 seasons,the pick of: Wheeler,Harvey, Familia, Gorski,Urbina, Rodriguez, Morris with 3RD yr closer, Parnell squired by very recoverd Mejia as we finally get out from under the last Minaya era burdensa for Santana & Bay by hasving bought out their options for a combined 8.5M with A newly extended Wright & a secured Reyes solidifying our l side infield defense with a payroll around $116M

            T, one obvious stastement few seem to be accounting for, a 6y, 120M Reyes deal merely increases annualcurrent payroll by a mere 9M since his current $11M is already accounted for. USA TODAY reflects our current payroll @ $118,847,309
            http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team
            Remarkably, assuming tthey use the same payroll database when going into the player detail for the team;
            http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/Mets/salaries/2011
            both K-Rod & Beltran are still included.

            I believe Sandy, realizes that pitching is the biggest changer of both cost efficiency aka payroll level/competitive level & his vision is to build rather than buy a “feared” rotation. Similarly, I doubt we’ll see any METS GET…” backpage headlines as I suspect Alderson will elect for incrementalstatisticasl improvements in s stealthlike manner ocer the existing “solutions” @ @B,C,CF,RF
            I certainly do not believe he envisions Thole, Murphy,Turner Duda or Tejada as SOLUTIONS but more likely as steps along his path Alderson, unlike Phillips & Minaya is NOT a single solution, all in one basket guy; but as we saw in his only NYM offseason, took his paltry $10M allocation & spead it as a thin layer across his needs SPing,#1C, Bullpen,2B,Bench, I don’t foresee his style altering as much as his thickening of his coverage as his $$$ allocation increases. I very much doubt we’ll see another Santan or Beltran signing before we see a series of postseason games scheduled in Flushing.
            T, that’s my read on Alderson, Sabermetrics will still be a factor; but his preferences will alter as his needs require and as the game changes. Few credit him for the actual concept of MONEYBALL; but fewer still credit him with adjusting his priorities once the games emphasis changed with the claming down on ‘roids stiffling the HR dominance on scoring methodologies which begat the “get many on base in front of the inevitable blast” to the score every which way u can since blasts are becoming less automaticly reliable.
            Suddenly Reyes’ adeptness at run creation was recxognized as much more valuable under this new baseball climate. Alderson was propheticly on-top of that clinmate alteration as from the very beginning he never waivered in his need to further “evaluate” Reyes’ game before committing his resiources.
    • jessep August 3, 2011 at 3:51 pm

      was that for me? lol
      • Even Flow August 3, 2011 at 4:07 pm

        No, that wasn’t intended for you. I have no issue with you.
  • jessep August 3, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    will: I asked a simple question at the end there

    “Who intrigues you on this list for the 2012 and beyond Mets?”

    Rather than sit in a corner and complain, who do you want Alderson to bring in that is available via free agency? i’m ready to listen.
    • will August 3, 2011 at 3:57 pm

      there is a lot of people on that list that will make the mets better, we have a team of aaa talent after reyes walks. there is no point in debating players when it is clear that sandy is lowering payroll and good players get paid big bucks from teams like the yankees, phils, & red sox’s. the problem was not we spead to much so lets spend nothing, it is we always sign the wrong player. most of the time we are never in on the cc’s, lee, holiday types, we just bid againist ourselves for perez. we need to contine to spend 140 but spend it wisely not sit on our hands and watch every team we compete againist get better.
      • jessep August 3, 2011 at 4:01 pm

        Will: I appreciate you reading and commenting but what you’re saying is a cop out. Basically, you’re giving yourself an out to complain no matter what they do.

        I listed the players for you, don’t tell me there are a lot on the list… tell me who?

        Throwing a general “we have to spend $140m” is a cop out. If there isn’t enough talent out there to spend, then why spend $140m?
        • Will August 3, 2011 at 7:20 pm

          A hole lot of pitching…..
    • t agee August 3, 2011 at 5:56 pm

      Jessep, This list just reinforces how vital it is to develop your own players.
      the only truly good looking two way player we have brought up here since Wright is Ike Davis. Coincidentally both were among the first players selected in their respective draft. Wright went 38th and Davis 18th.

      This team has entirely too many 7th and 13th round one dimensional 1B/LF utility types. Evans, Thole, Turner, Murphy and Duda.

      What is it about this organization that it simply cannot regularly produce players that are good on both sides of the ball? What is it with this weird preocupation with almost every single drafted player who makes it up here having 1B as part of his resume? To compound matters we have now clogged up the other most common job description, LF. For a couple more years at the tidy sum of 32 M.

      Even with all the numerous holes on this team we still can’t pigeon hole all the quasi Major Leaguers we have because they all play the same position or there is yet another expensive under performing waste of millions of dollars clogging up one of the few positions we could have hidden one or two of them at.

      Unbelievable.

      Another thing I find unbelievable is that some people think it was a good idea for us to voluntarally give SF our #1 pick for 100 games of Moises Alou and TWO #1 picks for a year of Chris Carter.

      There is just no conception among some of the fan base of how so many one dimensional draftees are able to beat out everyone else and make it through the system up to the Major Leagues.

      Who the hell has been running this organization? Colonel Klink?
• NJstuckinTX August 3, 2011 at 3:48 pm

  I’d consider Ankiel, who can play both corner and CF spot.

  Edwin Jackson for SP

  Resign Paulino at C.

  Roll the dice on BP arms.
  • Donal August 3, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Ya, I’d at least see what the going rate on Ankiel is. According to Elias. he’s unranked, so it won’t cost us a pick or anything. He’d be worth a flier. I’m not sure if his defense is good enough to hide Duda, but we don’t have much of a choice. Maybe Capt Kirk will be promoted next year.

    Starting Pitching, I’d prefer to just resign Cap. That gives us Santana, Pelf, Niese, Gee, Dickey, with Cap as a utlity pitcher. Maybe lwt Pelf go and put Cap in the rotation. Schwinden is already in Buffalo and Familia might join him early next year, so we’ll have some sort of depth there.

    2B, we’ll have Murphy and Turner with Tejada being the utility MI.

    I’d resign Paulino for catcher with Thole.

    With Wright, Ike and Bay on the squad, that leaves bellpen and bench.

    Bench, we can promote Satin, plus we’ve already got Tejada and whoever of the Murphy/Turner combo is out. Add Pridie for our 4th OF. Maybe keep Hairston or Pagan.

    Bullpen is kind of dependent on what we do regarding Pelf and Cap. If we keep both, that means we have a lefty long releiver. Parnell and Beato for late in the game, O’Connor as our LOOGY, and maybe bring up Mejia and see how he fits into late game situations.

    That still leaves a few spots so let’s see how things turn out.
  • jessep August 3, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    NJ: Thanks for the reply.

    Ankiel is intriguing to me for the time being. Jackson worries me. He’s been on I think 7 or 8 different MLB teams and he’s what 27? That’s a red flag.

    He’s a Type B which isn’t the worst thing in the world… I like Paulino too so I wouldn’t be opposed to sticking with this platoon but at some point the Mets need to focus on a longterm solution there
    • NJstuckinTX August 3, 2011 at 4:00 pm

      I’d love to have an actual long term solution at C, but when you look around, there aren’t any available, via signing or trade. I’m sure they could try, but it would costs arms and legs to get one. Knowing that, they are looking at a platoon at catcher, unfortunately. it’s not the end of the world, but less than ideal for sure.
      • jessep August 3, 2011 at 4:03 pm

        NJstuck: Right and I know tagee could chime in here. The Mets need to develop a catcher. Mike Piazza isn’t falling into their laps anymore.
• Hitman August 3, 2011 at 4:06 pm

  For catchers, I don’t really see anything much, but anything’s better than Thole. Yadi’s not leaving STL so cross him out. Ramon Hernandez, Chris Snyder, and maybe Jason Varitek (one year) are the best choices from what I see.

  For 2nd base, Mets should sign Phillips for 2-3 years. Give Valdespin as much time as he needs to develop. Should be ready in the next 2 years.

  Outfield wise, I’m not impressed. It would probably be best to go the trade route this offseason for a CF & RF.

  SP wise, CJ Wilson & Chris Carpenter (1-2 years at most) are the most intriguing at the most. My #1 choice during FA for a SP is Yu Darvish.

  RP wise, lot of good players to persue. Javier Lopez, Jonathan Broxton, Heath Bell, Hideki Okajima, George Sherrill, Michael Wuertz, Koji Uehara, Chad Qualls, Joel Peralta. Great chance for the Mets to upgrade their fledgling bullpen this offseason.
  • jessep August 3, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    Hitman:

    Thanks for the comments

    Question back to you.

    Is signing Brandon Phillips THAT much of an upgrade over Tejeda/Turner that you’d give away a 1st rounder for it?

    Good call on Darvish but the Mets don’t have the best luck in the japanese free agent market. But still a good call at age 24.
    • Hitman August 3, 2011 at 4:54 pm

      Overall (offensively/defensively), Phillips is an upgrade over Tejada & Turner. With Phillips here, Tejada/Turner become depth. Should anything happen to Phillips (with the Mets luck, it could happen), Tejada and/or Turner will be there to pick up the slack. However, consider this: the Mets only see Tejada as a SS, not a 2nd baseman. Why? I don’t know. Tejada sucks at short and he’s a natural at 2nd. Turner? Well, he’s a suitable backup IMO (for the record, I’m not saying this because of last night’s events). Is Phillips worth sacrificing a first round pick? No. With that said, I see a reclamation project in Aaron Hill. Offer him a 1 year deal and see what happens. He’s two years removed from a 36 HR season.
• Alex68 August 3, 2011 at 4:07 pm

  OUT OF 12, well now 13 comments i see you have written 5 of them… lmao, no wonder you think ppl ACTUALLY LIKE YOUR STUFF!!!!!!!
  • Even Flow August 3, 2011 at 6:04 pm

    You seem to like his stuff enough to comment.
• JoeBourgeois August 3, 2011 at 4:09 pm

  The other factor that I’m surprised nobody’s brought up is: Balancing short-term need and long-term need.
  Especially considering that 2012 isn’t likely to see the Mets in a real race again, it doesn’t make much sense to invest a multi-year contract in a marginal player, if there’s a reasonable chance there’s somebody on the farm that can contribute in 2013. To me at least (and feel free to argue) that means we DON’T want Alderson shopping for 2B (Havens, Satin, Valdespin, Tejada) and maybe RF (Flores, F-Mart, maybe Vaughn).
  Catcher yes — but as you note, none of those guys look great. SP yes, but ditto. RP, well, that’s always a roll of the dice, right?
  • jessep August 3, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    Joe: thanks for the comment.

    I think you have to maintain some sort of competitive balance while focusing on the future. Especially when you have Wright and hopefully Reyes.

    The problem is you can’t turn water into wine. In order to trade for “now” players you have to likely dump young talent which I’m not in favor of. And in order to sign “now” players, you need to have players worth the $ and there just are not many out there.
• Sach August 3, 2011 at 6:26 pm

  Nice post Jessep. Even thogh I’m really not answering your question, I think Sandy and staff are going to have to make a lot of tough decisions regarding the Mets 40 man roster headed into next yr. Camarena( a sleeper SP prospect), Familia,Flores,Havens,Holt(who might be given a look in the Mets pen in ST),Lagares,maybe Marte,Capt. Kirk,Puello,Satin,Schwinden and maybe Tovar have to be protected on the 40 man roster this offseason or be exposed to the Rule 5 draft. As for ML pickups, I think it’s going to be more of the same for Sandy and staff except for of course resigning Reyes- scrap heap pickups to fill out the pen and probably another Rule 5 pick-up for the pen.
  • metsaddict77 August 4, 2011 at 9:58 am

    def. we should just count on our crappy farm system and inability to scout talent.we’ll be winning in no time.
• XtreemIcon August 4, 2011 at 10:25 am

  Jessep, here we go:

  Thole/Paulino platoon is better than any catching available.

  2B – I’d kick the tires on Bloomquist as a jack-of-all-trades. He won’t cost anything, can play anywhere (literally), and brings enough value to help ease into the transition for the kids. Kelly Johnson is leaving Arizona two draft picks. Would have loved it if he had left the Mets two draft picks #dwellingonlastseasonarguments

  OF – I’d love to see Frenchie back as a platoon/defensive replacement in RF with Duda. I’m 100% serious about that. I’d like DeJesus, too. Maybe coming home would help him, but the Mets have no one remotely capable of playing CF, and he’d probably cost less than Pagan would for an overall upgrade. Yes, unfortunately, DeJesus is an upgrade.

  SP – I’d give Garcia another shot, especially if he finishes the season healthy. I’d also bring back Young and Cap.

  RP – too fickle a position to worry so much about. I’d look at Okajima as a LOOGY, but Cap might fit in there if he wants to re-sign as a reliever. Honestly, I think Beato and Parnell have more talent and stuff than 95% of the guys listed and would rather sign some veteran teachers than guys who could retard their development. Meaning, I’d rather sign Linebrink or Kerry Wood than Bell or Madsen.
  • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 11:04 am

    Why not bring Beltran back for the OF? He has to be better than Frenchy!
    • XtreemIcon August 4, 2011 at 6:30 pm

      Two reasons, first of which is Boras. He’s already stated he’s looking for 5 years, $70 million. No thanks. He probably won’t get close to that, anyway, but even if 3/36 is a “bargain”, it’s not something I’d like to invest in. Also, position. Duda’s raking now that he knows he’s the guy out there. Beltran is done in CF, so where’s he gonna play? Is he a better RF than Duda? Sure, now. What about next season, after some maturation by Duda. I’d rather give Duda a defined role, let him know what’s expected of him and let him roll.
• Clayton Collier August 4, 2011 at 11:19 am

  I like these as a realistic possibility for the Mets:

  -Nick Swisher

  -Edwin Jackson, Mark Buehrle

  -Todd Coffey, Frank Francisco, Ryan Madson

  Thoughts?
  • jessep August 4, 2011 at 11:28 am

    There is no way Madson is worth giving up 1st round pick for.
    • Clayton Collier August 4, 2011 at 11:57 am

      Oh I didn’t know he was a Typ-A… I don’t want any type-A’s unless their name is Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder Or C.C. Sabathia. Obviously we are covered at first base but just saying. Those 3 are the only I’d give a first rounder for.
  • Hitman August 4, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    -Nick Swisher? Interesting choice, Clayton. May I also suggest Ankiel (bench/defensive replacement), Crisp (bench/defensive replacement), C. Jackson (backup 1B?/OF), Kubel and Cuddyer for available OF pieces? I still believe we should look in the trade market this winter for at least one OF, but interesting idea with Swisher.

    -Edwin Jackson? No thanks. Buehrle is gonna be a Cardinal. He’s been VERY open about that for years.

    -Coffey? Pass. Francisco? Maybe on a minor league deal.
    • Clayton Collier August 4, 2011 at 3:45 pm

      Could you imagine Swish and Reyes in a dugout together Lol. Jackson pass. Crisp, as a 4th outfielder yes. I forgot about Kubel, he’s got pop and RBI potential but the shift to Citi might be a Bay-esq result.

      Cuddyer is very underrated I think. I’d take him if the price is right. He also can play 1b too.

      Why not Jackson? I like him
      • Hitman August 4, 2011 at 3:57 pm

        Why would Kubel have a “Bay-esque result” when he plays in a park just as big as Citi in Target Field right now? Besides, I’ve been hearing the Citi Field dimensions being changed this winter.
        • Clayton Collier August 4, 2011 at 4:08 pm

          Really? Where did you hear that? And Doesn’t the ball carry better @ Target?
          • Hitman August 4, 2011 at 8:30 pm

            It’s just a rumor I’ve been hearing about. I don’t know yet if it’s true or not. Personally, I don’t think Citi is as big as people make it out to be after I went to Citi for Monday night’s game.
• Metsie August 4, 2011 at 11:25 am

  Jessup it’s nice that you posted a list of all the guys who would be buys…

  But I did notice you didn’t post the column B of kids you expect to use INSTEAD of them.
  Which if listed and compared make all those names in column A sound a whole lot better!

  Easy to say I don’t want these guys when you don’t list who you would prefer.

  Or is it your intention to not get anyone and wait 3 or 4 years for your Youth/Build movement to play out?

  As for SPs I agree we seem to have the next gen in the Minors already. Havens may take the 2B throne. FMart or Flores may eventually grab the OF slots we have but who knows they are any better than the list you posted?

  And you make the mistake of thinking that we have to BUY the veteran leadership this team lacks. There are also trades that could be made. We sure have enough kids impressing people to make a deal. Who depends on Where in that case. Ike seemed like our regular 1st baseman. Is anyone counting on him next year? Will he continue to hit after missing half a season?

  This is not a time where the Organization should be worrying about philosophy. Spend now Build for later etc etc…

  There are roles missing from this team beyond the traditional 9 everyone talks about. Yes we need a 2B but we also need a mentor for the kids you are pinning your plan onto.

  While I don’t expect Sandy to make any Big free Agent moves other than Reyes and maybe trying to bring back Beltran if the price is right. If he fails to bring in someone new with some credibility in the lockeroom then next season will be just like this season save the need to worry about K-Rods Extention or getting something for Beltran.

  And unless we become buys NEXT year pretty much it will just be a repeat of this year save the Crawford/Reyes talk with no big slugger to trade at the deadline to get that one MAYBE pitching phenom to put towards your youth movement.

  Like it or not unless Sandy Buys Big (for say best SP or best Slugging FA) he is going to be making smaller moves FROM that list you posted that you don’t like!

  Cause what you fail to understand here is the FA list is what it is, And while it’s very nice and easy to say don’t buy, develop/build from within, but if there is nothing from within to build on you basically are standing pat until you HAVE developed something!

  And that means giving up on this team for the next 3 or 4 years!
  Until your plan is complete…

  Does meaningless seasons for the next 3 years appeal to you more than the names on that list?
  • jessep August 4, 2011 at 11:36 am

    Metsie:

    Thanks for the reply

    With regards to the young kids. I think I covered that in the article no?

    Mike Nickeas is on this roster because there’s nobody within the organization who is worth bringing up right now. To me, I don’t see any farmhand coming up in 2012 to take a starting role on offense or in the rotation. I’ll gladly be wrong, but who do you think I’m missing?

    I’m not sold on Havens at all. You know when you hear about Havens? When he’s hurt. To me, he’s not even on my radar until he proves he’s healthy.

    The same can be said about FMart. I’m done buying into him. He was Minaya’s prized prospect for so long and he can’t stay on the field.

    I actually don’t think I’m making the mistake that we have to buy anything really. If it was my team I’d be very careful with who and what I spend… I thought I made that clear that there really isn’t many free agents out there worth buying?

    I also thought I made it clear that yes trading is an option but a) what is out there and b) what is their price? We’re already looking at a roster with very few “next year” prospects and most of our prized guys are down the road players. So do you deal them? I don’t think so.

    “Does meaningless seasons for the next 3 years appeal to you more than the names on that list?”

    Meaningless seasons are more acceptable to me than overspending/digging a hole and not winning. Put it to you like this. If Alderson says to me “our plan is to develop a team that within 3 years will be able to sustain success over a long period of time.” then I’m in.
    • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 11:58 am

      SO basically your saying you want to stay pat until 3 or 4 drafts have produced something?

      You mention digging a hole…What Hole? Wilpon isn’t broke! Picard went away!
      There is no Salary cap to deal with? So what hole could we possibly make?

      If we do what your suggesting then there really WILL be a hole dug.
      Everyone we have that seems to be acceptable to have on a MLB roster will be playing to crickets, Install a losing attitude because we are not playing in the MLB for 3 or 4 years until some kid comes and replaces them…

      I mean really if you want to take this franchise back to what it was in the late 70′s thats fine but all you doing is making us the next moneyball failure.

      Moneyball didn’t work for Oakland and it most definitly won’t work here!

      If you really feel that way then I guess you think we should let reyes go too because at least he gets you some kids that might play out in that plan 3 or 4 years from now.

      Basically your last statement says it all…
      Your not interested in seeing good baseball each year, your interested in testing a theory you have!

      One that was tested in Oakland and failed miserably!
      • jessep August 4, 2011 at 12:21 pm

        Metsie:

        Basically what I’m saying is, if there’s a clear plan and they stick to the plan then I’m behind it. As I was with Omar. He had a plan, it just failed. It happens. I don’t know whether this group will succeed but I have to hope they will don’t I? That’s why I don’t get their critics who hate every move they make. What is the alternative?

        “You mention digging a hole…What Hole?” The hole that had this franchise “go for it” and come up with 1 playoff apperance and now no legitimate young players who can come up to contribute? Spare me on the Turner’s of the world. I don’t consider a 26 year old rookie who is a bench player on most teams anything to brag about. I’m talking about kids who are as touted as FMart was given a chance with a big league club because there’s a spot.

        Building for the future is what every team does to get back in it. It’s what Philly, Atlanta, San Fran have done. They aren’t moneyball teams are they? Moneyball has nothing to do with building up your assets and not throwing them away for older players.

        The Phillies can trade for guys like Halladay because they had prospects like Drabek who at the time was very highly rated. The Giants got past the Bonds years and built their team to fit their park with their pitching. The Braves have always kept a close eye on their farm (minus the Tex slip up)

        In 2005, Atlanta ended one of the most impressive playoff streaks many of us have ever seen. Then they won 79-84-72-86 games before winning the wildcard last year and likely this year. They didn’t have to turn their team into an onfield disgrace.

        They didn’t play a Moneyball style of management.

        Have you even read moneyball? Honestly? You realize the point of moneyball was that the A’s big league club was winning games by signing players nobody wanted and spending within the budget given right? It’s not just about drafting players.

        To say it didn’t work is pretty nieve in my view considering they made it to the playoffs 5 times from 2000-2006 and in order to get the Mets last 5 playoff appearances you have to go back to 1986.

        Think about how bad that is? The Oakland Athletics spent an average of roughly $40million TOTAL on players and in a 7 year timeframe they made it to the playoffs as many times as the Mets have since 1986. So if it “didn’t work” for them, then what has worked for us?

        I think they should let Reyes walk IF (and only if) he demands a contract that is not in their best interest. I’m sorry but if Reyes really does want Crawford money, then have fun playing in Washington or Seattle. I hope he chooses to work with the Mets on a fair deal.

        My last statement is saying, I’m tired of being fooled. I’m tired of signing veterans past their prime thinking it makes the Mets a contender when they don’t have the tools to win. I don’t want 1-3 years of success and then a massive cleanup project afterwards. I want CONTINUED success.
        • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 12:35 pm

          Dude HAVING a plan like GO FOR IT which got you to the playoffs is actually A PLAN!

          What your proposing is WAIT UNTIL something good happens and then start building!

          It’s predicated on you being lucky in the draft and having enough rookies come up and playing well enough to need help before you go and start building a team!

          Thats not a plan it’s wait and see!

          And if thats really what you want to do then look at all the rookies we have playing right now!
          They have ALREADY arrived! No they aren’t 21 but then again neither are the Yankees and Phillies guys…

          What you are proposing is going to CREATE that hole and the money problems you say exist but don’t!

          Cause no one shows up the next three years EVEN if all those lottery tickets pay off you won’t have the money to go get what is needed to get them to the playoffs and beyond.

          You will be Oakland with no money to spend to get you where Omar got you!

          Not saying we should be out there buying all the top FAs that come available. But you have to buy SOME players and sometimes those players will be expensive!

          Because no matter what you feel about Omars plan it WAS the last plan to get you to a playoff! And if the guys he bought did not get injured (and I will note Davis, Mejia and all those other KIDs who are currently on the disabled list) we would have been in them for three years running!

          So this YOUTH movement thinking Kids don’t get hurt is bogus! Look at the ratio and you see Kids get hurt just as much as vets. But Vets play hurt and Kids don’t!

          If your PLAN is sitting on your hands well thats not a plan…it is a resignation and a waiting room for something to happen before you start running the team.

          And I saw that plan in action before…
          Torre was the Manager!

          They truly sucked!
          • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 12:36 pm

            And yes I read moneyball…I also read the list of teams to make the World Series and Oakland was not among them!

            Never advanced any further than Omar did!
            If omar failed then so too did moneyball!
            • jessep August 4, 2011 at 12:59 pm

              So going to the playoffs 1 time in 6 years spending over $100million every year is the same as going 5 times in 7 years spending an average of $40 million?

              If I asked you which you’d prefer, you’re telling me you’d take 1 out of 6? Really?
              • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 1:16 pm

                Yep getting within one strike of the WS is better than making the playoffs and never advancing even ONE round 5 or 6 years straight!
              • metsaddict77 August 4, 2011 at 1:21 pm

                sounds like we’d prefer to play in the al west,a lot easier of a road to said playoffs
          • jessep August 4, 2011 at 12:58 pm

            Metsie
            — But it’s a plan that worked 1 time in 5 years (giving a pass on 2005) So yes as I said he had a plan but it failed. And because it failed we’re left with Mike Nickeas on the 25 man roster as a 3rd catcher because there’s nobody else.

            The draft is luck based on when you pick. Not who you pick. A minor league player has talent and its up to the development team to bring out the best in that player over the course of their time in the minors.

            “And if thats really what you want to do then look at all the rookies we have playing right now!” — If these players are what the next 5-7 years have to offer then we’re screwed Metsie. If our hopes and dreams rest on the shoulders of Gee, Murphy, Turner, Thole, Beato then we’re just screwed. They are all nice players if in the right role… but to say they have arrived and these are our young players then that is just bad news.

            “Because no matter what you feel about Omars plan it WAS the last plan to get you to a playoff! And if the guys he bought did not get injured (and I will note Davis, Mejia and all those other KIDs who are currently on the disabled list) we would have been in them for three years running!” — Actually if he had build organizational depth on the roster in 07, 08 they would have made the playoffs. Blaming the injuries to players like Alou etc is not an excuse. It was a predictable outcome. The Mets had no arms to come and save that pen, that was the issue.

            Tell me what is wrong with re-building the way Atlanta did? What is your alternative? You see the free agent crop, what do you have to trade? what’s available?

            What’s wrong with playing respectable baseball for a few years and focusing on bringing up talent gadually throughout that time?

            You think a Braves fan with 14 straight playoff appearances had any lower expectations than a Mets fan with 2 playoff apperances in a decade?

            Beachy (24, 2008), Hanson (24, 2005), Jurrjens (25, acquired from detroit for edgar renteria), Kimbrel (23, 2008), Venters (26, 2003) McCann (27), Freeman (21, 2007), Heyward (21, 2007).. .that is one heck of a core of young players on their big league roster.

            And they still have Teheran (20, 2007), Minor (20, 2009), Delgado (21, 2006) all very highly touted pitching prospects.

            So are you telling me Atlanta was just lucky with all of them? This is their young core that will ensure they are contenders for a playoff spot year after year after year.

            And they did it without ever using the word moneyball. So don’t tell me the only way to succeed with a rebuilding plan is to not spend $ and to suck for a while. It’s not true.

            During this short rebuilding effort, The Braves won an average of 80 games and then won 91 to make the playoffs and are on pace for 92.

            In the last 4 years the Mets have won 81 games.

            I wonder who’s plan worked and who’s didn’t?
            • Metsie August 4, 2011 at 1:15 pm

              “What’s wrong with playing respectable baseball for a few years and focusing on bringing up talent gadually throughout that time?”

              What makes you think they are going to play RESPECTABLE baseball when you crap on all the players who we are going to have while you sit on your hands?

              If we enact your plan all those guys you say are crap is whop is going to be playing!

              And Tell me how is Atlantas plan faring vs the Phillies plan who went out and pretty much Bought and or traded for all that Pitching?

              Did Phillie develop Victorino? Did they Develop all those guys not named Rollins Howard and Utley? Ok Hamels…

              4 guys!

              You mean to tell me that Wright Reyes Davis and Niese is not the same number of developments as Phillie has?

              Atalanta went to a lot of WS…
              How many have they won?
              And how did they do it? With developed players? Or Greg Maddox?
              What have they done since they lost that Pitching?
              Pretty much nothing like Oakland did!

              You can blame whatever you want for the lack of depth in the Miniors from 2005-2008. Truth is Omar got where you want to get within a year with a Minor League system that was BARREN!

              And you would have waited 5 years to try to get where he got!
              His plan didn’t fail you just didn’t give him a chance to see it through because you wanted to prove MONEYBALL is a good plan!
              But if he had continued what he was doing and went and BOUGHT the Pitching this year with the Minors and players we have now, not only would we have the Minor League dpth you want to have but the playoff RACE you want to wait 5 years for!

              Sure you can do and rebuild like At;lanta did…
              Tooke them 10 years of basement dwelling to aquire enough youth to promote as a core.

              Omar took a basement team and put it in the playoffs in a single year! And if the guy before him had left him some depth you would be calling Omar a genius right now…Someone might even write a book about him…

              Because as much as you like what Oakland, Atlanta and the Phillies did (up until three years ago for them)
              Omars plan was a lot closer to what the Yankees did who have dominated EVERY TEAM YOU THINK IS SMARTER and won and played in more world series than all of your GOOD PLAN teams combined!

              And they didn’t do it by waiting around for their drafted lottery tickets to hit!
              They played hard for EVERY SEASON while they did so!
              And had all the BIG NAMES and WINS you would give up while you are waiting for the Bisons to Become Mets!

              If you want to repeat what Atlanta and Philly did then come back in 10 years!
              Cause thats how long it took BOTH Atlanta and the Phillies to make their limited runs at competitive baseball using your method! and between them they have 3 WS wins to their record.
              Yankees have how many doing just the opposite?
              • Trufan August 4, 2011 at 3:26 pm

                First of all, the playoffs are is crapshoot. Winning a WS requires luck as well as talent. The Yankees wons 4 WS in 5 years, but didn’t win a single one the next 7 years despite getting into the playoffs every time. The Cards won in 2006 despite only winning 83 games. It’s more fair to judge teams (in terms of talent and production) on their regular season record than in what they did in the playoffs.

                Omar made many shrewd trades, he also made some bad ones as well. He was poor when it came to drafting, rarely going over the slot. He rushed and mishandled prospects, often hurting their development. He gave away 1st round picks for over-the-hill outfielders and relievers and dealt type A FA’s for peanuts. Moreover, he was disaster when it came to FA signings. We all know about Perez, Castillo, Alou, Bay. But even productive players like KRod, Santana, and Pedro have come close to performing up to their contracts. That’s not to mention all the gaffs the team made with handling player injuries and not even doing a physical in the Putz trade. Also, during Omar’s tenure the Mets had plenty of money to spend, which definitely isn’t the case now. You basically Sandy inherited a team with several bad contracts, payroll limitations, and a questionable minor league system. What could have the Mets bought with those assets? They don’t have to prospects nor the cash to trade for the Halladays or Lees of the world. If the Mets stuck with Omar’s plan then you’ll have to wait another decade before the Mets can contend.