5
2011
It Will Be Years Before We Know Omar Minaya’s Legacy
An article by 
The arrival of Sandy Alderson has stirred up many heated debates on the legacy of Omar Minaya. There are those who blame the former GM for everything that went wrong including that wicked Wainwright curveball. Then there’s the other side who lay the blame on all the ill-fated injuries or just plain old bad luck. The truth is probably somewhere in between. But I will caution the haters (you know who you are) that Minaya’s legacy has yet to be etched in stone.
For years we’ve all heard the accolades about how Omar Minaya had a knack for spotting talent, and during his tenure as GM we’ve seen him draft some diamonds in the rough in Ike Davis, Bobby Parnell and Jon Niese. But Minaya also rolled the dice on many players off the scrap heap that were cheap and have given the team some bang for the buck like R.A. Dickey as a recent example, and Fernando Tatis and Jose Valentin before him. Minaya’s biggest problem may have been keeping some of these players long past their shelf life, but in their first years they were solid contributors.
The fact of the matter is that Omar Minaya’s best players have yet to make their debut in the majors and most of them have spent the majority of the last few years developing in the lower minors. Some of those players are only now making baseball people take notice.
Two such players are pitchers Matt Harvey who was the Mets top draft pick in 2010, and the other is Jeurys Familia who Minaya signed as an International free agent. While RHP Zack Wheeler instantly became the Mets No. 1 ranked prospect as soon as he switched uniforms, there’s an excellent chance that both Harvey and Familia could make their way to Flushing long before Mr. Wheeler who has yet to find the strike-zone with any consistency.
Harvey and Familia have already moved past Single-A and are now at Class-AA Binghamton, where Wally Backman has been wowed by them according to two reports in the Daily News and Newsday.
“They’re pretty much electric. They both have mid-90s fastballs – Familia has a little more velocity. They both have those great curveballs, and they’re both working on their changeups. Harvey could have won in the big leagues the way he pitched in his last start. It’s just a matter of becoming more consistent. They can both be quality starters on a championship-caliber club.”
While discussing Matt Harvey’s last start, Backman added, “He got 16 swings at curveballs in his last start and not one of them even made contact. I know it’s Double-A, but this kid has a big-league, swing-and-miss curveball. Bryce Harper is the real thing, believe me, but Harvey made him look so bad with that curveball. He struck him out twice with it, and honest to God, the guy swung over one of them by at least a foot.”
A scout from another team agreed with Backman’s assessment and said, “You can see the potential in both of those guys. They’re legit.”
Harvey and Familia are just the tip of the iceberg. That barren farm system Minaya inherited and was ranked 29th by Baseball America at the end of 2004, is no longer barren and ranks anywhere between #14 and #16 depending on who you listen to. Over 85% of the Mets minor leagues is comprised of players that were drafted or acquired by Omar Minaya. Some of the name you need to know include outfielders Matt Den Dekker, Cesar Puello, Cory Vaughn and Kirk Nieuwenhuis. Infielders include Ruben Tejada, Reese Havens and Jordany Valdespin. In addition to Harvey and Familia, be on the lookout for Darin Gorski, Juan Urbina and Armando Rodriguez among others.
I became disappointed with Omar Minaya as a GM, mostly for his lack of communication and organizational skills. But I never doubted his penchant for evaluating players and finding talent. As far as that goes, his record speaks volumes.
It will be 4-6 years before we will really know Omar Minaya’s legacy. It’s too bad that some have already decided that his impact on the Mets ended when he got fired. Nothing could be further from the truth, and any success this team has had this season, is widely a result of his players, his depth, and his minor league call-ups.
This Fan Post was submitted by Met Maniac.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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good article, while i think he was way over his head as a gm, he was a good evaluator. phillips let and we got reyes and wright 2 years after his deparutre, i’d say the same about the crop of players minaya left behind, i see familia, mejia, harvey, niesen, valdespin and COREY VAUGHN as players who can make an impact for the mets, either as players or as trade bait to acquire someone important for us..
wheeler became the #1 prospect based on what?? “ceiling”?? please, let the kid play at least in the minors to see how he handle it, also, nimmo was supposed to be #4 and hasn’t even sign.. yeah, great, based on what exactly are we sure how this players are ranked?? when they grow up, develop through the minors, is when we really get to find out what exactly we got.. remember wheeler might feel the pressure to replace the best CF the mets have ever had in their history, who knows how he’ll handle that.. gimme jeurys and harvey ahead of wheeler, nbut if all 3 trn out to be studs, LOOK OUT!
This is the thing about Minaya. Everyone agrees that he is a pretty good evaluator of young talent. So why hire the guy and then handcuff him with these self serving ridiculous slotting guidelines? Why not let him draft the best talent? That costs pennies compared to Castillo, Perez, Schowenweiss, Bay, and Alou.
You can’t rebuild the farm system if your shipping out your 1st, 2nd and third round picks and then everyone you draft that does make it up here all play the same position.
The IFA’s that Minaya signed are the only strength in the farm at all. There’s a great chance that Valdespin and Tejada share second base next year and Fern could be forced into RF but how many more guys would we have along the lines of a Harvey or Davis if Minaya had kept the picks, found the Valentines, bought low, sold high and kept future teams in mind.
How good were we in 2006? The entire rest of the NL East spent 90% of the year under .500. No other team in the entire league even won as many as 90 games that year. Normally at least three teams hit that mark. Was it reasonable to expect that the Phillies, Braves, Nats and marlins would remain bad every year? Was it reasonable to expect that Pedro, El Duque, Delgado, Greene, Castillo, Wagner, Bay wouldn’t decline? No one would get hurt? A rotation of Santana, Pelfrey, Redding, Livan, Maine and Perez with Figgy and Misch in reserve would coast to a division title?
It is a joke to suggest that you can round your team out with 32-40 year old free agents interspersed with other teams rejects while waiting for 16-18 amateurs to be rushed through the system and back them all with 7th and 13th round 1B/something else types similarly rushed.
Lastly to call Ike Davis a diamond in the rough is insane. The kid was a very well known, highly regarded player from a big time college who was on the US Olympic team and the only reason we have him now is because we got an extra couple of picks for letting Glavine go. First round picks, not 7th or 13th round.
All good points. I love Omar as a talent evaluator but he was way over his head on many other aspects. In the right environment he would be a tremendous asset to any organization. SP on the other hand was an absolute disaster in every sense of the word in my opinion.
With all due respect dude, it could take years for Sandy Alderson’s impact to be known as well, and yet there is a lunatic fringe who suggest he needs to be “fired.”
Are you threatening me!!! I am Cornholio! I need Trades and Fire for my bunghole.
Like I had suspected, w/ the “4 thumbs down” I received, most of that lunatic fringe I referenced are commenters on MMO.
Carry on.
I never mentioned Alderson’s legacy, I never said he should be fired, and you should know better than to group people. But on another note, how do you like Matt Harvey and Jeurys Familia?
I was bringing up a counter point which as a “fan blogger,” you should expect. If anything your piece was grouping and validating your opinions on Omar. But if you must know, Harvey and Familia sound great, but let’s have them pitch some in the majors before we start patting ourselves on the back. After all, how do you feel about Wheeler and Nimmo? It goes both ways you know.
My post was a counter point to the hundred or so posts calling Alderson a genius for nabbing Wheeler as if to suggest Beltran was worthless and was transformed from a pumpkin to a carriage with a wave of his wand. But I never said anything derogatory about Alderson and only mentioned him once in my first sentence, and yet look at the extent people chose to bash Omar on this thread.
Did you disagree with my assessment of Omar that he was a terrible executive bot a solid talent evaluator? What was it in this piece exactly that made you leave a comment that had nothing to do with the subject I wrote about and pretty much started a s**t storm?
How about we let Wheeler throw more strikes than balls before calling him great?
By the way did you read the news this morning of another great Matt Harvey start and did you completely gloss over the comments Wally Backman made? I’m not looking to pick an argument with you, but if you’re going to attempt snark, at least have good cause or be able to back it up without resorting to conspiracy theories, innuendo and grouping people. If you want to counter and write a post about Sandy Alderson’s legacy, by all means go for it. But in all honesty, I dont see how your comment about Alderson’s legacy could be a valid counterpoint wehen in fact he’s only just starterd. But hey, different strokes for different folks. As for Nimmo, I’ll reserve my opinion until we actually sign him, but the clock’s ticking, 10 more days.
First, I’m not attempting snark, and if it comes out that way i do apologize. I’m trying to play devil’s advocate which may not come out the way it should had it been spoken in true form. So let’s break bread on that. As for the counter point to calling Alderson a genius for nabbing Wheeler, I wouldn’t go that far and in fact, I know that I have never said that nor would I agree with that. I think it was a good business move, but like you said, it’s a wait-and-see approach.
I think Omar was a good talent evaluator but his weakness was not just in the executive form but for not being able to stick to a plan. When 2006 happened, he didn’t know how to react and kept on striking while the iron was hot and didn’t work. So I guess we do agree on that point.
What I was trying to bring up is that for all those people who still think Omar Minaya’s legacy will have something to hold up, which it may we need to if Harvey wins ROY and a CY and the Mets go on a tear with like 3 WC rings
. But when someone writes something like this (which btw, i never did compliment you on it, you obviously showed a lot of passion in it and you believe strongly in it), I have to wonder if they are trying to discount Alderson and his potential future.
Like if the Mets were to win a WC. The #firesandy camp would automatically say “Well he did nothing and it’s all Omar.” That was all I was trying to present. I wasn’t saying anything about Alderson’s legacy per se,just that the same folks who want to put Omar on a pedestal for Harvey and Familia will throw Alderson under the bus for drafting Nimmo and trading for Wheeler. Not you, but again just bringing up a counter point.
I don’t know where people are getting the idea that I wouldn’t listen to Backman and his compliments on Harvey. I want harvey to do well. To suggest that I don’t want him to succeed is preposterous. No one wants to see our kids succeed more than I do. Well except maybe T-Agee
Omar didn’t have a plan after 2006? Really? Seriously? lol. Says who? Omar didn’t have a farm to support him in 2007. Where was he supposed to pull prospects out of? From the 2005 draft? So he was supposed to have help ready in 2007? That’s like asking Alderson to start dipping into the pool of MLB kids from the 2009 draft. Or the international kids from 2009. I think people need to take a step back and realize what they’re suggesting. The 2007 and 2008 Mets were one of the best teams in baseball. As hard as it is for people to admit, but they were. That’s something no one can take away from them. Excellent teams DON’T make the playoffs at times. It happens. Omar had a plan and it created a winning culture that ended up in him winning more games than any GM from 2005-2008. And if 2009 wasn’t such an oddity in regard to injury, you could stretch it to 2009 as well.
He lost sight of the goal, which was “pitching speed and defense,” which people have been beating the drum on, and became a “win now” philosopher. After losing the division and subsequent playoff opportunity, he sold the farm for Johan Santana. Now, I agreed with the move – it needed to be done, but at the expense of not having a Plan B through Z. That to me, isn’t a plan except “let’s spend money for the sake of spending it and hope for the best.” (the last sentence, did you mean stretch to 2010 as well?). Talent evaluator, we agree on. His philosophy which was to spend for the sake of it and getting plug-and-play players without addressing long-term needs suggests his plan was a little shortsighted, despite the good intentions when he started here.
I think we might actually agree on some of this OmarFan.
Well, he sold the crappy farm when the Santana deal fell into his lap. No one in his right mind would pass that up
The 2007 Mets were great? That lineup was literally 3 stars (Wright, Reyes, Beltran) and a bunch of scrubs. The rotation basically consisted of #4 and #5 starters like Glavine, Hernandez, Maine, and Perez, plus Pedro who pitched on 28 innings. The only good arm in the bullpen was Wagner. That team was lucky to win 88 games. Their Pythagorean W-L (based on runs scored and allowed)was 86-76.
2008 was pretty much the same team of stars and scrubs, except you got a little production from Delgado and Murphy and added a true ace in Santana. The problem was that team the year before was not as good as Omar thought and adding Santana to a bunch of lousy pitchers was not enough to make the playoffs. Their Pythagorean W-L was exactly their real record, hardly one of the best team in baseball.
Looking back at how Omar built those 2007-08 teams, you can easily see how bad he was at adding useful role players to complement his stars.
No it won’t.
As a frame of reference, during Omar’s tenure as GM, he had 4 first round picks in 6 years and 3 Supplementals. Boston’s Theo Epstein in the same span 7 first round picks and 10 supplementals.
Oh, and they signed international free agents too. If Ike Davis and Matt Harvey turn out to be stars that is great. The upper rounds of the 2005, 2006 and 2007 drafts are barren for the Mets with the exception of Mike Pelfrey.
It looks as though Minaya’s player development crew might have found some diamonds in the rough in guys like Thole and Niese in 2005, Murphy in 2006, and perhaps Duda and Gee in 2007.
Minaya’s legacy will be one of inability to balance objectives and a failure to secure what he so preciously termed “Pitching, speed and defense”.
Another thing to consider is that even with the diamonds in the rough, like Murphy (of whom I admit to being a fan) has no position to play. He’d be great in a bandbox. In the AL. Unfortunately, there’s neither in CitiField.
DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH??? AND MURPHY in the same sentence?????
What is your definition of DitR, then, Alex? Seriously – we had a similar discussion when I called Carlos Beltran the true catalyst last year and you nearly had a conniption
catalyst on the mets is JOSE REYES!!!!!!!! murphy is a nice hitter, not great, nice hitter that is having a nice season (noone outside of his small legion of fans is noticing it), i am happy for him, but come on, he’s a lefty version of mark derosa, that’s it!!! ppl calm down..
Actually (drum roll…) I agree with you kinda/sorta on Murphy for this year. I’m all into maximizing value – I defend him because he’s unnecessarily being the whipping boy for bigger picture losses which I think is very unfair. BUT if he’s not traded this offseason, I’ll probably be on the #firesandy camp (well, not really…but you get the drift).
And I hope you know I wasn’t saying that Murphy is the catalyst…lol
That is funny Alex! Murphy could hit, but he is rough in the diamond!
well calling Murphy a diamond in the rough and all your defense (pardon the pun) of him tells me all i need to know about what you think is important to win games.
Um, what is your definition of Diamond in the Rough then? No one had heard about him in the minors (or rather they kept him under wraps) and then he exploded. Continued to rake and perform. His defense is questionable. that I fully admit to, but my defense of him is that a) he’s thrown under the bus way too many times by people wanting to scapegoat and b) he’s not given a position and only one position to work with. Perhaps he’s not like Ty Wigginton who can be slotted into any position.
You know what is my theory to winning games? Actually it’s more of a hierarchy: pitching, hitting, speed and defense. Especially in Citifield. Murphy is a great doubles hitter and triples hitter but let’s be fair – he’s not quick. He’s like molasses running uphill. I rank defense last, not that’s it not important but when you have people like Dan Uggla butchering the infield that’s one thing but when he smacks the crap out of the ball no one cares about his defense. (mark my words he’ll come around at Turner, he’s traditionally done well there)
And i don’t care for your remark about what *I* think is important to win games.
Murphy is not quick? After Reyes, Murphy is the quickest infielder on the team. He’ll both quicker and faster than Davis. He’ll outrun Davis by a mile, he’s faster than Wright. A couple of years ago, he beat Wright in the 30-40 yard sprints every time. You’re doing great Coop, but this one is a boo boo.
You think Murphy is fast? Thanks for the compliment Des, but I would never ever group Murphy as quick on the basepath (if you are talking about deftness in the infield/defense, then you would be right, I was talking about his running prowess)
PS You think he’s faster than Wright? Really?
Use your reportorial contacts to ask David Wright, a straight-up guy, about his foot races in spring training with Murphy a couple of years ago. They were close in running speed but Murphy won.
Maybe you’ve been reading a of Bayonne’s psychedelic posts.
Maybe I am getting a little warped, spending way too much time in here. Never thought of Murphy as speedy. Hmm
Murphy didn’t get so many doubles by being slow. Anyway, the facts can be checked.
Question: Do you think Ike is fast or quick?
Bayonne is still clinging to the hope that Tejada will develop. Ruben’s a guy who is not quick and he is weak in his forearms and wrists. He swings with his full arms. He’s smooth, yes. Take smoothness to the bank and see what it gets you. It’s good on the dance floor and in diving off a board into the pool. That’s it.
Really, the only time Tejada is quick with the bat is when he can drop the bat head to help him generate bat speed. Will he ever be anyting more than a .250 hitter over more than sporadic time periods? Only time will tell. Ruben can make contact with the bat, but he really is poor at driving the ball. Why? His bat speed and strength are poor.
In 2011, Tejada struck out with the Mets 1 out of every 5 times at bat.
In 2011, Murphy struck out (with the Mets) 1 out of every 9 times at bat.
Even with Buffalo in 2011, Tejada strikes out 1 out of every 7 times at bat.
Overall, Tejada in 2011 has 89 hits, Murphy has 122 hits (33 more).
Regarding SLG, it isn’t close. Murphy has .450 with the Mets, Tejada has .274 with the Mets.
As of a couple of days ago, in 2011, Murphy had 9 errors, Tejada had 17 errors. Yes the eyes and a lot of publicity cause deception. But Murphy has much better hitting and better fielding numbers.
Des I think you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about, sir. Tejada as a 19 year old his .290 in AA. That’s pretty impressive. He is a singles hitter at the moment as a 21 year old. Tejada needs more time to fill out. Not every SS is Jose Reyes. Omar Vizquel is the name associated with a guy like Tejada. That’s the type of hitter he could become with a little patience and luck.
I also have my personal favorites too but bottom line is i always have an opinion for what i think is BEST for the TEAM to win and you just have to put your OWN personal favorites on the back burner. I am a supporter of Ruben Tejada and was very happy when he was brought up and like i said over the winter the BEST middle infield defense the Mets can have is Reyes at SS and Tejada at 2B and i was RIGHT and it was wrong to send him and Turner away so early. But eventually Tejada did appear overmatched and was sent back down and rightfully so. But make no mistake the bottom line is progress and he has progressed form last year, is only 21 and has a nice swing so he WILL be back sometime, somewhere. As for Murphy i was NEVER a fan of his and while yes he has hit a lot better than i thought his defense is horrendous and in my opinion his defensive AND mental lapses on the field and on the bases hurts the Mets more than it helps them. You may like him because he’s nice, a good guy and works hard but that doesn’t translate into wins. I look for what translates into wins no matter WHO it is
I disagree. While I like Ruben Tejada, he looked like a better version of Anderson hernandez at the plate. Slightly better. You have to even see that. I think Tejada will be decent in time, but unlike previous regimes, aren’t you okay with them taking their time with promoting and not rushing him? I mean, if he’s “your guy,” shouldn’t you be tickled about that prospect?
i just said sending him down was the right thing to do. There’s time he’s only 21.
Meanwhile Turner is here and he’s the guy to root for and i have no problem with him at 2B for now regardless of the error he made. I think Tejada is already better defensively than him but you cannot ignore the amount of big hits Turner has had and his defense it really not that bad so yes I agreed with keeping him at 2B.
My mistake – I missed that part. carry on.
I’m torn on Turner. I feel like Terry Collins has to make do w/ what he has, unfortunately the best laid plans, etc etc…Ike being out, Tejada not being ready for prime time, and all…this may contribute to not giving Turner his due and Murphy not having a consistent position.
PS I like what’s best for the team too and one thing I will harp on with the Alderson crew is that they didn’t trade Pagan when his value was high(est), they should have looked into trading Pelfrey who had a career year in ’10 (and I’ve stated on record how much i love him and want him to succeed but he may not be “suited for NY” which has happened a bunch of times)…but you know, people had a heart attack for cutting Castillo saying it would ruin them and you know what – it didn’t. I suggest you read my piece at Kiners Korner on “defense schmefense” that we can’t have it both ways – want a defensive minded fielder (wherever they may be – IF or OF) and then get all worked up when they are an automatic out. Murphy won a game earlier this year with a HR in late innings against the Nats, and it was worth more than a game he might have had a brain freeze.
Murphy has had MORE games costing the Mets with his brain freezes on the bases and on the field and you CANNOT have that type of performance on a field at the professional level regardless of how he’s helped us with his bat. And unless he learns how to play the outfield he has no position here. He’s NOT a second baseman and will not be a second baseman – he’s too brainless and has feet of stone.
Sure he can go out and hit a game winning HR tomorrow but unless his Defense improves or he learns the OF he’ll either be a tremendous addition to the Mets bench or use him for a trade to an AL team.
See, I think you and your ilk who wish to scapegoat rather than look at the bigger picture recently misses a few factors. One is that Collins said on the air yesterday that the Murphy brain cramp on the basepaths (what looked like one anyway) is that Jon Niese was at fault for not running. But that blew up because Murphy was one of the guys scapegoated. The other night with the brain cramp when JT was covering first – yeah, I was pissed off, but no one asked the professional Jason Isringhausen to load the bases to begin with. No one asked the Mets to not score a run the entire game. I guess I might be siding more on the apologist end but that’s not my bag. And btw, I told Alex above that he’d probably have a heart attack, but i do agree that Murphy, based on his success this year, should be the first one on the trading block next year. Shocker, I know. Just because I want to see someone succeed doesn’t mean I’m a total homer for them and can’t see the forest for the trees.
The Mets are going with what they had. That’s it. Imperfect players. What can you do? Sign another Luis Castillo? Seven years we have yet to produce a single two way player from the farm. Obviously this says much more about the previous two regiems than Minaya but it’s undeniable.
Every single player Minaya drafted that made it up here to date is a firstbasemen/something else or a first basemen period. Even the catcher spent two years in the minors learning, what else, firstbase. But the only guy who can really PLAY firstbase is Ike Davis, so where do all these other 1B/something else types play? Well there’s Left Field but that’s clogged up with yet another expensive bust so you fit guys in where you can. It’s not their fault that they weren’t correctly developed or that their all 7th or 13th round talents. No one is every going to confuse Murphy, Evans, Thole, Duda with Chipper, Freeman, McCann or Heyward. How could they? Those guys were drafted in the first or 2nd round.
This is what is meant by upside or ceiling. Guys with a higher upside or ceiling tend to play a hell of a lot better on both sides of the ball then guys that have lower or medium upsides and ceiling.
The guys who were picked up on waivers are incomplete too. Pridie, Turner, Nickeas, that’s why they were put on waivers to begin with.
Now if Minaya was allowed to go overslot for high ceiling high school kids I’ll bet anything he would have produced a number of top shelf talented position players by now but he wasn’t. Could he have skimped a little on the Perez’, Castillo, Bay, K-Rod moves and used the funds to build a wildly talented farm. I’m sure he could have split the difference.
No one likes skimping on defense less than I do but you simply cannot go through another year like last year where 14 of our hitters got on base less often than two of our starting pitchers.
Something has to give when the players your farm sends up here aren’t Major league caliber all around players.
Actually, lets talk about Murphy. He’s a 3B. That’s all there is to it. And I think he’s a guy who could be a damned good one. Unfortunately, that base is occupied. Duda is an OF by trade. I don’t see what the complaint it. Fernando Martinez is an OF by trade. Ruben Tejada is a SS by trade. Nothing wrong there. Ike Davis is a 1B by trade. Nothing wrong there. Reese Havens is a SS by trade. And what is this obsession with these UNPROVEN young players. When is Jason Heyward’s induction ceremony? Domonic Brown has done nothing. These kids are NOTHING to talk about. Until they’ve kicked tail in the league for 3 years, we can BRAG about minor league systems. They’re NOTHINGS at the moment.
As for our international kids, Martinez was hurt. The guys we’re waiting on is the next batch: Valdespin, Tejada, Lagares, Puello, Marte, Aderlin and Flores. As much as you might want to complain about Omar not producing enough talent, it takes 6 years to develop kids who are teenagers.
Omar didn’t hit paydirt in the MLB draft until 2008. He drafted some pretty good talent. Kirk, Reese, Ratliff, Ike, Satin, Sometimes longer. Omar has solid talent in the farm. That’s why POLITICS had more to do with Omar leaving than anything else. If J-Rod weren’t a bust, that draft might really have been huge. Your claim that Omar didn’t do a good job with the system is bogus. You want guys to perform in 2008 from drafted or signed international players in 2005? Unlikely. Even 2009 it’s unlikely. This is what makes your argument worthless when it comes to free agents Omar signed.
“Actually, lets talk about Murphy. He’s a 3B. That’s all there is to it. And I think he’s a guy who could be a damned good one. ”
That was his worst position in the minors. He actually does a much better job at 1B and 2B
“Duda is an OF by trade. ”
No, he’s a 1B. He spent 225 games there and 183 in LF. Which is occupied.
“Fernando Martinez is an OF by trade.”
He didn’t actually play OF until he got into the Mets system.
“Ruben Tejada is a SS by trade. ”
Who has an arm too weak to play SS. And his highly vaunted glove glove has been suspect.
“Ike Davis is a 1B by trade.”
Well, there’s 1
“Reese Havens is a SS by trade. ”
And another guy they had to move.
It does take a while for the 16 year old kids. No question. A few can zoom their way up but those are a rare breed. Miguel Cabrrera comes to mind but see this is the thing. The IFA’s were expected to carry the show and yet they take a long time to get up here. Six years according to Omar Fan although the reality is oftentimes even longer than that. It’s also a reality that of all the kids an organization signs only about 20-25 IFA’s make it to the majors every year. The bust rate is massive as can be understood when evaluating 15-16 year old kids.
So if it takes a young prospect 6-8 years AND there is a massive bust rate, why would you throw away so many draft choices on aging players? Their not going to be around when the kids get up here. Hell Omar traded away his entire first IFA class. He traded away a lot of inherited assets, He traded away guys from his first draft class. That right there puts his first IFA class at 2006 with a best case ETA of 2012 (in reality 2013-2014) Long after even the most optimistic prognosis has Pedro, Delgado, Wagner, Franco, El Duque, Alou, Beltran, K-Rod, Santana long gone.
So what was the plan? Gamble on getting one and risk a meltdown and then expect the very few good draftees (Davis, Havens, Holt and Harvey) to mix with all the 1B/LF types and team up with the Latin American kids somewhere around 2014?
The fallacy in that plan is that he signed just about one guy for every position. Every guy was going to come through? Please.
C-Pena, 1B Aderlain, 2B-Valdespin, SS-Tejada, 3B-Marte, LF-Flores, CF-Puello, RF-Fern
Forgive my projections but I believe there pretty realistic.
Obviously Mejia, Familia, Tapia and Urbina are huge and major cudo’s to Minaya for all these guys and no one can complain about Fern but it just goes to show the whole fallacy of the plan.
The two kids with the most talent are Valdespin and Tejada. Tejada has the talent to play up here right now but not the skills. he shouldn’t have even been considered for the Majors until 2012. He was brought up way too soon.
Valdespin is the other kid that’s zoomed up here but you know what? Valdespin was an overage, small bonus guy who fought his way up here. He was signed at 19, not 16 like all the rest. No wonder he got up here so quick. He was playing against guys his own age all along.
Another thing about Valdespin is that he’s from San Pedro De Macoris what the Dominicans refer to as “the cradle” of Baseball. This is the part of the DR where the best players come from. The Braves have guys all over this place. They even have their Academy right in San Pedro. How a kid like this got past them I’ll never know’
Regardless the plan to get one, crash, and regroup by expecting every single 1st round pick that we kept, in conjunction with all the one dimensional 1B/LF can’t play any defense types and every single IFA would make it is laughable in it’s pure gullibleness. A joke.
It is only through the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks, in conjunction with the IFA’s, all coming together at the same time that this plan could ever work. That’s why giving away 3 #1 picks, two #2 picks and a 3rd rounder as well as failing to take back two #1′s for Wagner left us in this valley……..again.
Not every IFA signee will make it up here. Not every early round draftee will make it up here. Not every expensive free agent will be worth it. That’s why you need a hell of a lot more of the first two and a hell of a lot less of the last………until you’ve assembled your team and the perfect fit guy comes along. After, not before.
i HAVE no “Ilk” I HAVE no “lunatic fringe” I have none of that stuff. If there are people here who are on the same wavelenght baseball wise than that’s fine. But you keep running around here posting things about the “ilk” and “lunatic fringe” i run around with.
I reflect the opinion of Bayonne Mets Fan and nobody else. If you see anything in common with other people that’s because they like me love baseball the traditional way and it’s STILL the best way.
You on the other hand for all your years of posting about your summer family or whatever the hell it was have not learned a whole lot about the game. You watch what you want to watch and you don’t know enough to make up your own mind instead you ride the backs of whoever becomes the new GM or leader. You don’t tell me nothing new so stop with your associating me with an “ilk” or a “fringe” or whatever the hell else you want to call it. And learn how to do a radio show before even attempting to do one. Get a plan first before you do one of those bloggy things.
I don’t like Alderson, I don’t like the people he’s hired (maybe Ricciardi is okay) I certainly cannot stand Google Boy, I don’t like what Alderson has done so far outside of the OBVIOUS (cutting Castillo & Perez) I don’t like what he brings to the table, I don’t like what he represents with his moneyball garbage, I don’t like his emphasis on OBP (just hire a hitting coach to fix the guys who have trouble seeing the ball and need more restraint, etc) AND I don’t like the direction he’s taking the Mets. And I think he did a lousy job this winter because I think he had his mind already made up that this team wasn’t going to contend. He’s LUCKY the Mets have had big injuries to key players because otherwise his job would’ve been a lot tougher.
Time will tell if i’m wrong (hey i already was, i did not like the Collins hire at first but like MANY PEOPLE Collins has won us over and deservedly so). But for the most part I do not like the direction this club is gonna go under his watch. I saw him on TV say he wants to do here similar to what “they” done over at Oakland and if that’s the case this team is in for a rude awakening. Maybe all his “prospects” do come to fruition and i wind up with egg on my face.
Time will tell but right now i do not like what i see.
“I certainly cannot stand Google Boy,”
That statement right there is so telling. It’s everything wrong with pretty much everything you say when the subject is breached.
So in other words, your hatred of the man is based on nothing. Like some of your friends, misused the word “Moneyball”, and you are the head of the lunatic fringe.
Thanks for the clarification.
So Bayonne Met Fan, I see your ban has taught you nothing new about respect for other commenters/bloggers. I hate to break it to you but people do love me, and I have never represented myself as some sort of “traditional baseball expert” but rather as a fan who loves the sport, loves the sport and presents an emotional response to my attachment of the sport.
I have a radio show that is fun and haywire and people love it. The fact that you attack it and me shows you cannot stand women who talk about baseball and men who respect women who talk about baseball. Considering it’s not even “mine” (it’s the groups and you listened to us ONCE). If you disagree with me that’s one thing. I welcome that. Do you know how you are viewed outside of MMO or rather on here? I can assure you, it’s not favorable (and I have defended your right to your own opinion since everyone has one and well…you know)
I suggest you look in the mirror before attacking others with differing points of view. “Good looking chicks shouldn’t have a mouth likes yours.” That’s the best you can do? Thanks. I think.
“loves the sport and WATCHES the sport”
Coop, I love hearing what you have to say. Well thought out opinions, well written, a different perspective at times, all things I enjoy.
bayonne obviously has a problem with women. We all know that. He makes sexist remarks to them, talks about other posters wives, girlfriends and daughters and he does it on a baseball website for God sake.
The guy has a problem with women, that much is obvious. Why? I have a pretty good idea but who cares. Don’t take it personally, it’s not just you it’s all women and it’s ruining this website.
Keep up the good work Coop, there’s lots of us that like to hear what you have to say.
agee you’re making up some serious lies there my man. I just noticed this – this is pretty inaccurate info you’re spreading out here. You’re just making yourself look worse and also if you’re capable of seriously making a lot of this stuff up and then you’re capable of doing it elsewhere too..and i have a good feeling you’ve been doing that a lot here already.
Ask Kaye and Coop if you made sexist remarks to them. Ask MNJ, Donal amd Jessep if you wrote about their wife, girlfriend or daughter.
No lies here.
Bayonne finally admits it. He walks, talks and thinks alone. He doesn’t like being associated with with an “ilk” or a “fringe”. Looks like he’s a true misanthrope.
It’s tough to criticize Alderson when he had just become the GM and haven’t had time to properly evaluate the team yet. Neither Pelfrey nor Pagan make much money this season, so it would have been more expensive to replace them through FA, and the farm system doesn’t have players ready to replace them. And if he traded them, I bet a lot of fans will complain about him being small market and all that other nonsense.
Pagan was the best position player on the team last season. This year poor luck on balls put into play has doomed him, but his plate discipline is better than ever. It’s very likely that his BA will rebound next season.
Oh, it’s very easy to criticize Alderson. It doesn’t take much at all.
To do so in an honest, knowledgeable and coherent fashion? That seems to be where people get stuck.
Omar’s legacy will be he was removed under ominous circumstances. I believe his ousting was more a case of politics than him being a bad GM. You don’t allow a man to spend on free agents to build the team for 4 years (highly successful years after 5 years of trash mind you), and then usurp his checkbook, cut his payroll by 25-30+ million and expect the guy field a competitive team. What’s even more unfair is asking the man to compete in 2009 after losing 4 All-Star players from the roster, starting pitchers (along with their backups), utility guys and your bullpen set up man. The excuses I have seen from some of the members of this website border on a combination of terrible information (Putz not being given a physical for a “bone spur” lol) to questioning why Omar signed Alou since it killed their chances to draft Zimmerman and Stanton (more false information, since the Mets had 2 draft picks in the 1st rd where they could have drafted both players). Zimmerman and Stanton were passed up by every team in baseball. Killing Omar for that is plain Monday morning quarterbacking.
Omar did a fantastic job with the farm. He would get more credit if some of the kids he drafted were contributing instead of being injured. The whining by Met fans during his era was created by a fan base who acts as if the Mets were a winning organization for the greater part of the last two decades. If Sandy Alderson, Depodesta and Riccardi are successful within the next 3 years, it will most likely be off the back of Omar Minaya’s players. People should remember this in the future.
If Sandy Alderson, Depodesta and Riccardi are successful within the next 3 years, it will most likely be off the back of Omar Minaya’s players. People should remember this in the future”
WOW.. SPOT ON!!!!!
So wait, does this discount anything that Omar did to help trash the chances of being competitive this year? $18mm being paid to two players who contributed diddley squat this year isn’t on Omar? Just being fair here.
Keep in mind Steve Phillips also was successful, but only trading away all the successful parts that Joe McIlvaine had drafted…but then managed to retrade for Bobby Bonilla AFTER the McIlvaine figured out a way to get rid of him and his bad vibes…and we’re STILL paying him for the next 25 years!
The guys who trashed our chance of competing are the owners. Fans should remember that as well. And they’re running a game on Met fans by claiming they’re broke. They’re far from broke and everyone knows this. They MADE money on the Madoff scam. That’s something people forget to mention. Omar had his legs cut out from under him. Sandy Alderson has no legs to stand on at the moment.
Does that mean Steve Phillips gets credit for 2006?
And what “politics”? He had 6 years to give us real tangible results and failed.
He left the organization in better shape than he found it, but not by much. And certainly not enough to justify all his hype or the payrolls he ran up.
Phillips get NO CREDIT for 2006. Who was left from his regime? If it wasn’t for Omar, he would only have Wright to brag about.
Wright, Reyes, Glavine, Trachsel, and Floyd. I’d also mention Heath Bell, but, whoops…
Heath Bell? Ugh…That kid didn’t do well at all in the 2 years we had him in the pen. Over 5 ERA and a world of failed opportunities. I remember him being the chief culprit in 2005 out of the pen. The man was simply terrible. Tom Glavine? Ugh…Floyd is the only thing worth talking about after Wright and we all know Jose Reyes was an Omar find.
He had few opportunities and a high BABIP.
And Reyes was an Omar favor to Toledo. Even Minaya admits this.
The 5 ERA had more to do with horrible luck on HR/Flyball, BABIP, and LOB% than actual ability. Even when he was a Met struck out 8+/9 IP and walked 2.5/9 IP. The fact that Omar ignored his excellent peripheral skill in favor of insignificant small sample size performance shows what a poor GM he was.
The same lack of vision that occurred in the Jason Isringhausen deal. Or the Mora deal, Nelson Cruz deal, Jason Bay deal. We get rid of the guy who goes on to do the job for someone else while importing, at a huge cost and forfeiting draft choices, guys who sometimes work out and sometimes don’t.
Then SD, Oakland, Baltimore, Texas, or Boston get the draft choices to replenish their farm while we get zippo.
Even those few instances where we do have the right guy we manage to **** it up. Wright and Reyes were as good as gone under Phillips and it’s really just pure luck that their here today.
Sorry Trufan, but Bell was a maddening example of what happens with younger guys. He was given 2 years in the pen and proved to be anything but good. The fact he didn’t listen to management regarding his pitching was indication that he needed to be moved. You’re calling his terrible performance here bad luck? There was no bad luck. He couldn’t make it happen with a golden opportunity to shine as our bridge to the closer. Omar got rid of a kid who was getting shelled and didn’t listen to his coaches. What are you supposed to do at that point with an unproven late round draft pick who is unwilling to listen and learn from his proven superiors? Note Bobby Parnell. At least he is willing to listen to his coaches. He’s not as good, but the guy has brains to listen. Whether he has the talent to match is another question for another time. Bell was a proven headache to the coaching staff. Judging him by his character flaws, it wasn’t a shock to hear him blame the Mets for his terrible performances as a Met. To blame Omar goes to prove some of the members of this site have hidden agendas.
You mean the same management that shuffled him repeated in 2006 between the majors and minors, the one that never gave him fair chance to succeed? The same management who rushed prospects and grossly mishandled injured players? The same management that embarrassed team all these years and threw players under the bus? The same management that had a total starting season payroll of $727,355,574 from 2005-2009, the highest in the NL, but has only one playoff berth to show for it?
“For me, it was 11 times in ’06, but only nine of them counted,” Bell told the San Diego Union-Tribune, as the Mets prepared to open a three-game series at Petco Park on Monday. “There were a few where I got called up, took batting practice and was told, ‘Oh wait, we’re not activating you.’ Or you get the phone call after you get off the plane and they’re telling you ‘Just wait there.’
“Then there are the times when they told me, ‘Go to the hotel, but we’re not sure you’ll be activated.’ So you go to the bar and there are, like, three of us. There’d be two pitchers and a position player, all three of us waiting to find out if we’re going to be activated.
“One time, (the Mets) had me take batting practice because they weren’t sure another (late addition) was going to show up, then he showed up and they had me clear out my locker for him before he got there.” – Heath Bell
correction: from 2005-2010
Then why didn’t Minaya draft Stanton or jordan Zimmerman?
You mean to tell me it was a GOOD job drafting Kunz and Vineyard?
Please your getting crazy here Omar. It was a bad job based on a bad philosophy rooted in part by the horrendous draft results of his predocessors but still……
four college relief pitchers in the first 6 picks.
Get a clue.
That draft right there is a good reason why the only players Minaya drafted who got up here are 1B/something else or were 1B in the minors or became one’s up here.
Six picks in the first 3 rounds, all busts and he gave away, when he didn’t have to, the best pick of all, by signing Alou 1 week before SF had to decide whether to offer arb.
That’s right. Just threw the pick away. As if we were so loaded with talent that we couldn’t have used a first round talent up here like an Ike Davis or a Matt Harvey. Oh no we don’t need anyone like that around here, we have Duda, Murphy, Evans and Thole.
Why would we need a first round talent around here clogging up the minors.
And TWO first round picks for Chris Carter. Another 1B/LF guy who can’t play defense as if we didn’t have enough of these types already.
What a way to build a team.
Agee Omar made a mistake in the 2007 draft. Relax with the Monday morning quarterbacking. If your memory serves you correct, you will remember the Mets had an issue with their bullpen following the 2006 season. He knew that was a problem THROUGHOUT baseball. After 2006, the focus was most likely a quick fix via the pen. You can second guess all you want, but all it does is make you look foolish, sir. The way Omar finds talent, and he has because the system is rich with functional solutions at every position except catcher, one wasn’t going to blow a gasket because he missed out on some meaningless draft picks. And the 2007 draft is the ONLY draft you can point to for your flimsy example.
Omar your a laugh riot. “Meaningless draft picks” huh? You do realize that four of those draft choices came from letting Bradford and Hernandez leave our bullpen via free agency right? Those two guys weren’t going to last forever so IMO opinion Minaya did the right thing by taking the picks but nobody (except Minaya) drafts FOR relief pitchers. Certainly not in the supplemental, 2nd and 3rd rounds. That’s where future All Stars are culled from. You don’t use those picks for guys who might be able to influence, at most, 80 innings a year, you use them for guys who can influence 1300 innings or 200 innings. It’s not like we had a RFer, LFer, C, 2B, or 1B on the horizon at that point anyway and even if we had, counting on just one guy for every position is ridiculous.
The teams we compete against in the NL East picked up future All Stars in that draft and so did other teams. Florida drafted Mike Stanton. Do you feel the pick used to draft him was “meaningless”? The Nationals drafted Jordan Zimmerman, the Braves Heyward and Freeman. The Phillies drafted Travis D’Anaurd, a catcher who is lighting it up in AAA and was a big part of the Halldiay deal (along with the pick we gave Philly for Wagner, Kyle Drabek) Those picks were “meaningless.” You would really think that with having traded away two catchers (Butera and Vance Wilson) and losing a 3rd to the rule 5 draft (Flores) maybe that would have been a priority.
Tommy Hunter, Corey Luebke, Zack Cozart and Austin Romine would have been good picks as well and I know perfectly well that the draft can be a crapshoot, sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don’t but it is the thought process BEHIND this draft that I am complaining about. The idea of addressing your bullpen in 2009 by spending your #1 pick on a 40 year old LFer (when you could have had both) and spending two supplemental, two second and two 3rd round picks on four college relief pitchers. The fact that all six picks busted and Alou only played 100 games over two years and left behind nothing going forward is a big part of the reason we have so many holes to fill right now.
If your going to give away so many draft choices while trying to build today’s team, then when you get the opportunity to have seven picks in the first three rounds you have to make them count, big time, for the future. Not to round out your pen two years from now.
And it’s hardly the only instance of this happening. 2010 Boston had got from us a first round selection, a supplemental round pick and a 2nd round pick. We got Chris Carter and Jason Bay.
Again, if your going to hand over three first round draft choices, fail to take back two more that were handed to you on a silver platter, give away two more supplemental round choices (Castillo, Perez), give away two 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder and then draft for relief pitchers in the first three rounds you are crippling the franchise’s ability to compete in the future.
That’s ten draft choices all told from the rounds that comprise about 50% of All Star teams that your calling “meaningless.”
Since even early round draft picks are 50/50 at best we cannot say with any certainty that Minaya would have hit on all of them or even half of them but with his reputation for being a good talent evaluator I would say his chances would have been better than most. I’d say he would have gotten us 3-4 top shelf talents out of those ten (four 1st rounders) early round picks and considering he spent only one early round pick in 6 years on an OFer might very well have spent a pick on Mike Stanton if he was looking beyond the bullpen two years from now.
If he had parked Mike Stanton in RF for years to come you’d be crowing about what a great pick that was, and you’d be right. Since he didn’t the pick is “meaningless” as were all the other nine 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders he gave away.
Face it. He and Rudy Terrases blew the draft, plain and simple and as good as Matt Harvey looks and as promising as Peavey, Den Dekker, Vaughn, Morris and perhaps Forsyth appear, how much better could he have done with the 1st, supplemental and 2nd rounders he gave to Boston? A hell of a lot better than Chris Carter and Jason Bay I’ll tell you that much.
2009 was no prize either. Our #1 was spent on K-Rod, #2 on Matz, Shields and Ceccilini at 3 and 4 who are lonshots, 5 and 6 didn’t even sign. 7 (Gorski) appears to be an extrodinary pick. To date I’d label this one potentially the best pick of his regieme along with Akeel Morris. (right now I’d say it’s Neise) but again. Mike Trout HS kid from Jersey, #1 prospect in the minors, 20 year old CF just called up already. Think we might be able to use a CFer someday? For 6-10 years or more? We had little depth there (Den Dekker and Ceccilini hadn’t been drafted yet and Puello was miles away. Kirk may never be anything but a 4th or 5th OFer. Neither one is a sure thing although I love Puello. My point? K-Rod closing for a rotation consisting of Santana, Pelfrey, Redding, Livan, Maine, Perez, Figgy, Misch with the leagues worst offense at C, RF, 2B, and LF and highly questionable defense as well? and only a potential CFer in St. Lucie and Kingsport? What kind of a way is this to build a team?
I thought Cashen did a great job but I can point to bad moves and bad thought process behind some of those moves. Foster, getting rid of Trevino, Samuel, Muscleman ect. No GM’s perfect except in some peoples minds.
Think about it. If just two of those ten picks hit we could have been looking at Stanton and Trout playing side by side for years to come instead of busting in 2007 on bullpen arms and signing a closer for a team that just didn’t have the horses to compete in 2009. Not the rotation, nor 4 of the starting 8.
Unbelievable. Plenty of early round draft picks spent on college relief pitchers and closers but yet only one pick in the first three rounds on an outfielder in six freakin’ years.
You just can’t make this **** up.
Here’s the problem with using guys like Harvey and Familia as examples of Minaya’s success.
Minaya was hired in the winter of 2004. You’re saying we’ll have to wait for around 10 years before we can accurately say if Minaya was successful.
I understand that prospects take a while to develop, but I’m fairly certain asking for 10 years is too much. It will have taken him 10 years to produce his second well rounded difference maker (Ike being the first). 2 everyday players in 10 years? From Mister Super Talent Evaluator?
He’s filled our minor leagues with a bunch of DHs. That would be a whole lot better if we weren’t a National League team. We have our first baseman set for the foreseeable future and there are only so many left fielders a team can carry (especially when we’re already locked into one for three more years).
If you want to say a lot of it is tied to the Wilpons and the media and fans being all “win now” and Minaya caved, then fine. But don’t act like his tenure was anything but a disappointment.
Here’s another problem to touch on what you said – people are willing to give Harvey and Familia credit while still pitching in the minors. Meanwhile, didn’t Harvey get shelled in a few outings when he was promoted? I don’t think that means he’s a bust – it means he’s working his stuff out in the minors where he is SUPPOSED to. Right? The same folks who tout Harvey and Familia, with good reason b/c I believe they will be contributions in the future of the team, lambast the move for Wheeler which I think will be gravy and don’t give Alderson credit for Nimmo (though truth be told, they havent’ come to an agreement yet). Just saying that if you want to give Omar Minaya all the credit for this team or the majority of it, fine, just the lunatic fringe needs to stop with the whole Alderson is a hack motive.
I was a Minayapologist for a long time, till last season when I saw no tangible changes. The franchise was a 4th place team when he took over, and 4th place team when he left. Clearly the crash and burn cycle has got to end.
BTW Donal this isn’t directed at you per se but I was building on your thought!
Nimmo has BUST written all over him. I’m sorry, but I can’t recall many major league All-Stars who played in the Foreign Legion leagues. I was EXTREMELY disappointed in that selection. I am not the biggest fan of Depodesta. That was a VERY risky selection. And Wheeler is a risky proposition because the man has poor control. His BA rating is spooky at best.
“but I can’t recall many major league All-Stars who played in the Foreign Legion leagues.”
Did you look? Do you know how Legion ball stacks up against hign school ball?
“That was a VERY risky selection. And Wheeler is a risky proposition because the man has poor control. His BA rating is spooky at best.”
Ya, we’re better off with safe picks like Kunz, Pelfrey and Vineyard.
And you do know that the minor leagues are where guys go to work on their control right?
Especially guys who changed their delivery and are anticipated to fill out a little more.
Look Donal, If Minaya had swung the wheeler trade Omar Jr. would be singing Wheelers praises. I can see it now. 1st round pick, 6th player overall, 3.3 M dollar bonus, Giants know how to draft pitching, Nolan Ryan was wild after he got up here, relax he’ll figure it out, after all Ollie did.
OmarFan: When Dwight Gooden was in A Ball, what kind of control did he have? What about Randy Johnson?
Will Wheeler be them? Likely not.
But the point is he’s a kid in A ball and you can’t teach stuff but you can teach control. That is why he’s in the minors.
We got value for Beltran when he wouldn’t bring anything back. That’s what matters.
Woah woah. Coop. Stop making sense.
I swear, no one sees the forest for the trees.
That’s your opinion, Coop. I think challenging for a playoff spot is more important than getting some overrated prospect. Once you leave the Top 15 overall prospects in the minors, the rest is a crapshoot. Baseball America creates a Top 100 list as a marketing gimmick. Very few of those Top 100 ever make it, so Wheeler’s ranking is blah. Most kids who get smoked at high A ball are suspects more than they are prospects. I will go on my nearly 3 decades worth of following the minor leaguers on this one. I don’t believe the Mets made a great pick up with Wheeler. Hope I am wrong.
Well I can thank you for being so level headed about this debate, Omar Fan, so uh…thank you
. I’m of the wait-and-see approach with Wheeler because well, the minors are there to work your stuff out. Not to dominate per se. When they are promoted and tracked the right way, then they become dominant where it counts, in the majors. I think we might be able to break bread that the Mets have not had a good track record of taking care of their prospects in their development. Even in Omar Minaya’s defense, he may have pressure to promote when clearly the prospects were not ready (like Mejia last year or F-Mart even).
As for challenging for a playoff spot, well, that may have proved to be more difficult. What I hear a lot from people is that they believed “this may be our only year,” but this philosophy is from the crash-and-burn cycle we have seen over the past several years. I have no problem if we needed to sacrifice the present if it comes to that to work on the future which is something I actually value. but it’s cool if you disagree with that.
That simply is not true OmarFan. “Very few of the top 100 BA prospects make it?” Sorry, factually incorrect.
To give you an example offseason BA does a top 20 in every minor league. There are 16 different minor leagues. 320 different players make the top 20 in each league. Those are the best 20 out of roughly 700 or so players in each league, from their the list is boiled down to the top 100.
Last years post season rosters included a full 50% of players who at one time were listed as top 20 in their league (from which the top 100 would be the top third of those prospects) but the real deal is that those who at one time were listed as top 20 in their minor league are the one’s who did the heavy lifting to get to the playoffs and win in the playoffs, not the bench, 4th and 5th starters, LOOGY’s ROOGY’s and what not.
Like any prospect ranking it’s all subjective and never 100% accurate but to say “very few of the top 100 make it” is factually incorrect.
The facts are that many of the top 320 make it. The top 100? Only more so.
You’re comparing Wheeler to one of the most dominating pitchers in the history of baseball before injuries ruined his arm. Do you realize that? Gooden walked a lot of hitters, but please give me a call when Wheeler racks up 300 strikeouts in one season @ A ball. Wheeler could walk 8 a game if he could strike out 14 per like Doc did @ A ball.
This is so funny. I just love these internet guys with an agenda.
Everyone Minaya drafted or signed was great, except for the legion of guys who weren’t “because no one could have expected………..
Never even seen him in a pro game and he has bust all over him. What a laugh.
Wheller’s BA ranking is spooky but Omar Jr.’s is spot on.
Oh man you just can’t make this **** up.
Incidentally in the last fifteen years we’ve selected exactly five OFers in the first 3 rounds (where by far and away the best domestic Major leaguers come from) Tyner, Turay, Milledge, Rodriguez, and Nieuwenhuis.
Tyner and Milledge 1st round busts as were mostly every Phillips pick Turay a 2nd round bust, Javier Rodriguez (4th year 21 yrs old in Savannah, not a bust yet but not looking good) and Kirk Nieuwenhuis 4th year 23 years old AAA has a chance at at least a 4th or 5th OF spot)
That is the reason we haven’t had a decent corner OF prospect come here and play well in the last decade and also the reason we have had Floyd, Alou, Murphy and Bay in LF on opening day the last 10 years and spent a #1 pick and 2 #2 picks to get them.
It is also the reason we have had Burnitz, Cedeno, Hildago, Cameron, Greene, Church, Francouer and Beltran in RF the last decade costing 3 more #2 picks.
This is complete lunacy. OF entails 3 positions and we think so highly about their importance that we’ve only drafted 5 guys in 15 years in the first 3 rounds?
I think we’ve found the reason why we’ve had to lavish so many millions of dollars and spend even more draft picks trying to rectify this mistake, after the fact of course.
Nimmo has BUST written all over him? Really, based on what, because this regime drafted him?
Charlie Morton – the pitcher for the Pirates that is having a very good year and many in the know are talking about played American Legion Ball in Connecticut.
AMERICAN – not FOREIGN – a little respect………..
The Foreign Legion was an attempt at humor. Regardless, in my years following the minors, I don’t recall hearing anyone from those leagues making it as a big league star. He’s a kid with no college experience and no High School experience who ONLY performed in the Legion squads. I don’t believe I’ve heard of 1 guy who made it to the bigs going that route. It’s highly questionable and VERY risky. And judging by Mr. Depodesta’s past experience, I worry about his eye for talent.
I took that as a bit of humour and Wyoming is a little outside the norm for 1st round picks. I too am a concerned about De Podesta’s drafting skill and I was shocked at the pick but all we can go by right now is the thought process behind it.
It was simply an attempt to get a guy who has all the physical ability in the World to be an impact player in our OF. All the scouts agree that his physical ability is worthy of being a first round pick. As a HS kid he had 5 years to get up here after he signs and will still only be 23. Compare and contrast that with say Matt Den Dekker who appears to be very talented but also has a good chance to not put it all together before he ages out. 23 and just a handful of games at AA and a huge K rate. Same situation with Vaughn, 22 with a handful of games in A+ and a huge K rate. These guys may put it together at 25. One injury marred season costs them big time, just look at Havens. Nimmo could be up here producing at 22 or 23 and Boston and Tampa were sorry to see him off the board so early.
With three OF positions to develop prospects for we have taken 5 OFers in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounds in the last 15 years. Is it any wonder we receive bad play from 2 of the 3 positions every year?
We’ve actually spent more early round draft choices on free agent OFers in the last six years than we have prospects that could be long term solutions as oppossed to a guy who lasted 100 games and a guy we are now stuck with for another two years.
Good thought process behind this pick. Good pick though? Not even Branch Rickey, Pat Gillick, or George Weiss could venture an informed opinion on that issue.
Coop I hope you’re smart enough to recognize Omar was forced to take a 30 million dollar cut in payroll. I hope you realize he was ONLY able to add one significant player to a roster that lost Carlos Delgado. That is a significant downgrade. You lose that much payroll, miss Delgado, lose Beltran, and your team will suffer. That’s the bottom line.
Oh no Omar Fan! He was “ONLY” allowed to spend over $100million?
How many teams made the playoffs with under $100mil payrolls that year?
Jessep said it.
Teams under 100 million have one way to build. Through the draft. Most of those teams DON’T compete too well. The A’s are a perfect example of a team that has flopped because they don’t spend.
OmarFan, my question to you is – hasn’t the whole FA and dependency on it been one of the major things that’s gotten the mets into trouble over the years? I am definitely for having a stronger drafting/minor system but also to plug in holes with FAs. It seems to me anyway that the Mets (not just Omar Minaya but previous GMs as well) go after veterans who don’t really fit into a “plan” here, k-w-i-m?
Not really. There’s rule 5, IFA and “value hunting”. The A’s did go through a pretty good playoff run for a few years there.
And you forget to mention teams like the Cubs and Dodgers who spend butt loads of money just like the Mets and continually fail to make the playoffs just like the Mets.
I hope some of you got your diploma because Coop just took a lot of you to school.
So happy you and T-Agee are in the house, and Donal too (though I think he’s disagreeing with something I didn’t say lol)
No no, it was directed at what Maniac aid about Harvey and Familia and those guys as proof Minaya’s tenure can still be considered successful.
Never getting rid of me Coop.
People, including one who may or may not have written this article and one who is commenting to you practically threw their clothes off and jumped into the closest body of water when Omar was fired.
Sorry i’m not buying it. I got killed on this site for supporting Omar and I will still support a lot of what he did. Supporting him doesn’t mean I can’t admit he failed.
The mysterious support of Omar lately stems from disliking Alderson, and those people will never be happy no matter what.
They are Randy Quaid in Major League 2. That sums them up perfectly.
It’s like this lunatic fringe is rooting for this administration to fail. Yet, there are so many inconsistencies in their statements, it’s not even funny. Like promoting BA over OBP then whining when the Mets don’t score any runs because they aren’t GETTING MEN ON BASE TO DO IT. Then whining when the Mets don’t score any runs because the defensive guys who are supposedly saving runs in the field aren’t driving them in when they count. It’s absurd.
When the Mets are good and competitive in a few years, perhaps some of Omar Minaya’s drafts will have panned out, but according to these people, all that will happen is Minaya’s will all succeed and Alderson’s will all fail. It’s ridick. Wait it out and see. (PS Jessep if you can, listen to our podcast tonight)
Nobody is rooting for this administration to fail. Some people have just disliked the moves they have made this year, just like they disliked some of Omar’s moves when he was GM – Disliking the moves your GM makes doesn’t mean your “rooting for them to fail”. I’m sure you disliked some of Omar’s moves too, does that mean you were rooting for him to fail? No.
Today the Jets released Cotchery, I don’t like that move, so does that mean I’m rooting for Mike Tannenbaum to fail? No, of course it doesn’t.
And another thing, the Mets are getting guys on base, but the reason why they have games where they aren’t scoring is because nobody is driving them in. Which is exactly what we argued about all winter long, that you need guys that can drive runners in. And what does that have to do with the Mets GM’s anyway?
Actually VinnyB I’m going to have to disagree on many parts.
1) per rooting for the administration to fail, with the lunatic fringe saying things like “Fire Sandy” or “Fire Terry” before they’ve even MADE any moves or lambasting moves they make anyway, signifies to me they are not giving them a chance. This franchise isn’t even messed up from Omar Minaya, we can point back to Duquette, Phillips, hell even Harazin’s days that we are trying to get out of a crash and burn cycle. I think this lunatic fringe also doesn’t know what to do without a splashy flashy GM who makes moves because they tell him to
2) I beg to differ. Digging up some research, for several of the every day players, no one was drawing walks. We figure that our from their BA being identical to OBP. I’m sure you knew that Vinny. Jason Bay and Jose Reyes for examples have them. With the Mets not having many power hitters, the walk is essential for those guys who ARE getting base and extra-base hits to drive them in. It’s simple, actually. And it didn’t have to do with GM, actually, it was mostly dealing with the Tea Party population of Mets fans who holler about MoneyBall and what not but this proves that walks are important and can be critical to the nature of how the Mets are constructed.
Last year we were wanting Hojo to be fired so the new batting coach has NOTHING to do with moneyball or any type of philosphy other than getting batters to see the ball better and be more patient at the plate so we ALL knew we needed a new batting coach anyway no matter WHO the new GM was.
You’re doing a LOT of 2nd guessing yourself. Steve Phillips wasn’t on the mound giving up a blown save in the 1st game of the 2000 World Series, Steve Phillips didn’t take a called 3rd strike in 2006. Jim Duquette didn’t blow a HUGE save vs. Pittsburgh towards the end of the 1991 season, Jim Duquette didn’t give up a dramatic HR to Mike Sciocisia in 1988. Steve Phillips didn’t give up a dramatic HR to Terry Pendleton in 1987. Joe McIlvaine didn’t throw ball four vs. The Braves in 1999. Bob Scheffing didn’t decide to start Tom Seaver on 3 days rest instead of George Stone in game 7 of 1973 World Series.
You want me to get into individual games decided ON THE FIELD that cost us a chance at the playoffs in 1985 vs. Cards? And in 1984 vs. Cubs?
You’re just becoming a second guessing monday morning quaterback like the rest of the guys that are very visible here like the parrot, tagee “The Grand poobah of the Second Guessers Fraternity”, jessep and those like them.
You keep saying things like Lunatic Fringe and Tea party and If i’m included in that I could not care ANY LESS because i am VERY confident in my assessment of the Mets playoff history. I don’t sit back and look for excuses in the front office when the Mets have had their share of opportunities to get into the post season and PLENTY of opportunities in the past to get into the World Series but the suffered dramatic, heart/breaking losses. You’re judgement is HORRENDOUS and you are way off in your assessment about the OBP arguments this past winter and Vinny B is 100% correct. I always said that the RBI guy is the MOST important, and AVG is much more important than that ridiculous OBP stat. The Mets were at the top of the league not long ago and still maybe their in LOB so how much percentage of that stupid OBP stat is part of the LOB stat? Huh? Is there a new stat for that?
Batting AVG and RBI still rule, always have and always will.
Oh and you’re running around on this board kissing the butts of the guys who’s name you mentioned while i don’t consider myself part of ANY lunatic fringe or any special group of people. Sure there are other posters here that i agree with and we are on the same wavelength baseball-wise but being a traditionalist (if that’s what you want to call it) ….being a traditionalist and the game of baseball itself dictate what I say..not associating with any specific group of people who just HAPPEN to think the same way and thank God there are a few here that do and speak out about it. I happen to think a lot of the traditonalists are FED UP with this new math and new moneyball NONSENSE and are tired of talking about it and I don’t blame them
All of that garbage, all of that penny pinching, all of that talk of not giving up prospects who may or may not make it has taken the place of something we used to talk about on this site and that is what it takes to win baseball games. Instead now some of you look back and make excuses for decisions that were made AT THE TIME in order to win AT THE TIME. Sure some of them did not work out but the bottom line is the Mets have had opportunities to have a richer history but have lost the big games ON THE FIELD.
What it takes to win baseball games ON THE FIELD is having the best players. The OF we fielded in the 2000 World Series has to be the worst World Series OF’s of all time. Only Bobby V could have gotten that team that far.
2006 all the other teams in the NL East spent 90% of the season below .500. In 2007 and 2008 they got better, we stayed the same. Philly’s everyday players were in their prime, our weren’t. They were committed, we had guys undermining the manager.
in 2008 we won the season series but they played better against everyone else. They even had a lower team ERA in that little band box then we did. O Duca fell off a cliff in 2007 and Alou missed half the season. Wagner got back spasms the last two weeks. We had no fresh horses. They won, we lost.
2009 we have zero injuries we have the smallest chance, very slight, for a wild card. Santana, Pelfrey, Redding, Livan, Maine Perez, Figgy, Misch? With Schneider at C, Church in RF, Murphy in LF? Very very slight chance.
Now if Duquette doesn’t trade Kazmir we probably do win it all in 2006 and at least go to the post season in 2007 and 2008 but of course that goes back to having better players, and that takes place OFF THE FIELD.
This team has been chronically short of in it’s prime talent for 20 years and it shows in the on field results. One World Series game won in 25 years, one NL East title won in 23 years.
That doesn’t happen when you have the best players.
need i say more people? This post is nothing but making excuses and second guessing. The word “Accountability” does not exist in this man’s vocabulary.
So in HIS opinion the Mets have a SLIGHT chance if all healthy in 2009, the 2006 Mets were lucky and the rest of the league was bad. In 07 and 08 the Phillies are the bluprint after 100 years of losing while the Mets did nothing…unbelievable. If we have Kaz we PROBABLY win it all in 2006.
This guy is Excuse-making and Second-guessing personified. It does not get any worse and you cannot get a clearer example of it than this. Amazing.
I don’t get what your issue is. He was 100% right on all of it. Are you just mad because he disagreed with you?
No,
I have a MAJOR disdain for excuse-makers and second guessers.
Well, I’m of the opinion that “well, we had lots of injuries” when the roster was old and injury-prone to begin with is an excuse.
Can’t blame the fire for burning you. Stop playing with it.
How is he making excuses? Because he spreads the blame around?
Why is what he is doing making excuses but what you do by saying it was all on the players not?
It’s really unbelievable with this guy. If you believe what he writes, the Mets were never any good. They were just never good and any time they had success there was some rational explanation for it.
Pathetic.
It’s not that the Mets were never any good. It’s that the Mets haven’t had a team that can sustain winning since the mid to late-80′s. Anyone can see that. Why do you hate the current Mets so much that you have to act like the worst, most disappointing, heartbreaking half-decade in the team’s existence is like the glory years?
i’m just not making any excuses for heart breaking losses from 06-08 but those were GOOD baseball teams otherwise they wouldn’t have been there in the first place
Now you want to break that apart, analyze it and say what you would have done go ahead and we’ve all already done that and we do it everyday here.
But make no mistake those were GOOD teams. Unfortunately for us just not good enough.
Exactly, not good enough. And what’s going on around here now is the first step in making the Mets a sustainable winner.
When your catching corp consists of Schneider, Santos and Thole your not a good team.
When your LFer is a rookie infielder with 4 minor league games at LF you are not a good team.
When your backup to a 37 year old first basemen is the same rookie infielder you are not a good team.
When your rotation is Sanatana, Pelfrey, Redding, Livan, Maine, Perez, Figgy and Misch you are not a good team.
When your bullpen includes Stokes, Broadway, Stoner and Green you are not a good team.
When your backups and AAA depth include Tatis, 40 year old Sheffield, Reed, Sullivan, Berroa, A Hern, Ramon Martinez, Argenis Reyes, Emil Brown, Cancel, Andy Green and alex Cora your not a good team.
Injuries cost this team any chance at all but looking at this roster…………Get real.
I think your way overreacting. I have not seen anybody on here, or anybody i know in real life saying that Alderson and Collins should be fired. But what I have seen, is people saying that they don’t like some of the moves they have made – That’s it. Just like how they didn’t like some of the moves Omar made.
The Mets as a team are one of the BEST in the league at drawing walks – So that’s not a problem at all. The main problem is that we don’t have any other guy who is good at driving runners in besides Wright. If anything, the Mets recent play shows that you need guys who are good at driving runs in to be a successful offense.
I think Omars legacy is somewhere in the middle at the moment. It’ll be a few years before we know for sure how his prospects pan out. Some felt he was a little too heavy on his “Los Mets” campaign early on. Like giving Pedro Martinez a guaranteed 4 year contract when he was already pitching with a torn labrum. The trade of Brian Bannister for Ambiorix Burgos. Or Jeff Keppinger for Ruben Gotay. However he was able to trade for Carlos Delgado, and sign what might have been the best Mets’ free agent signing to date, Carlos Beltran. How many non rookie free agents have the Mets signed over the years for over 5 years and put up numbers like Beltran did? Frank Cashen has to be the best GM in Mets’ history. He built the organization from the ground in 1980. By 1984, every single level of the Mets’ organization was competitive and always competing for a title. The Mets didn’t really go after free agents in their glory years in the 80′s, but when they did in the 90′s, we all know how the first crop turned out. Omar put some winning Met teams out from the 2005-2008 period, but did not keep the farm system fully replenished and developed. This showed in the injury riddled 2009 and 2010 seasons. Career minor leaguers and back ups like Ramon Martinez and Alex Cora were playing everyday. Some could blame coaches, some could blame the scouts and others might blame Tony Bernazard. Either way the buck should stop with Omar. But I think Minaya learned from his mistakes. Maybe even earlier than the 2009 season. We are finally seeing the younger players develop at the Major league level, and for the first time since 2005, the Mets are looking to finish the season as a winning team after a losing season before. All the signs for a bright future and we do have Omar to thank for that as well as Sandy Alderson and Terry Collins for keeping it up.
I think this is where everyone wants to blame Omar for the team not being able to compete in 2009 and 2010. There is no minor league system in baseball that’s going to replace 3 or 4 All-Stars and their backups in a season. That’s a huge excuse perpetrated upon the fans by the media. Nothing was going to save Omar Minaya in 2009. When you look @ 2010, the team was already looking for their scapegoat in Omar Minaya. They closed the checking account and forced Omar to take a 30 million dollar cut in payroll. By some accounts, the figure is close to 40 million. This site has some very suggestive individuals who don’t follow any reasoning other than blame Omar for blowing the Met future in the 2007 draft. I think it’s pretty funny to give Alderson any credit for the future. He has not signed anyone significant and the minor league system is 100% Omar’s team of prospects. Anyone that comes up from the system will be credited to Omar Minaya within the next few years. I can’t kill Alderson for the Beltran trade. The owners forced him to trade both he and K-Rod. Much like the owners forced Omar to trade Billy Wagner back a few years ago. People on this site have suggestive memories. Worrying about insignificant draft picks, but forgetting why players were traded or signed is more for agenda driven fans.
Well many will blame Omar Minaya for the 2009 injury woes that the Mets suffered. He failed to keep the farm system fully replenished like he had promised to do when he took over in 2004. It could have been a fluke because even his prospects (F-Mart, Niese, Nieve) were sidelined as well. What sold me on 2009 being Omars doing was when he was asked about the misfortunes of 2009, he responded and then added that Adam Rubin was gunning for his job. He should have been axed right there and then. His prospects still would have been playing and you still would be praising him. Oh yeah and remember how he praised his 2007 Mets for spending the most days in first place amongst all the playoff teams of 2007 after his teams historic collapse? I like Alderson better because he was willing to take the job to clean up his and Wilpons mess!
Well if they think they are bbeing fair for blaming Omar for the injuries then I guess it is fair to blame Alderson for Ike Davis, David Wright, Jose Reyes,Angel Pagan, RA Dickey, Beato, and Chris Young for getting hurt ruining our fine chances for a WS this year because if we had all those guys 100% healthy all season long we might still be in the playoff hunt…
So now tell me Did Omar have as many injured guys as Sandy has?
Is it fair to blame the GM for Injuries sufferred by the team?
Knives cut BOTH ways!
So anyone who wants to blame Omar for the few injuries we had that year should be blaming Sandy in SPADES for all the injuries we sufferred to the HEART of our lineup this year and trading the one healthy productive guy to boot!
I don’t blame Sandy…And I don’t blame Omar!
Players get hurt!
And the problem BOTH have had have NOTHING to do with the injuries it was always about lack of pitching!
Omar Minaya’s firing was Public relations move, not based on Politics, Performance, Drafting ability, Evaluation ability, or Failure.
You guys wanted change and you wanted it in wholesale quatities. Wanted EVERYONE gone, Manager, GM Beltran even suggesting to get rid of Wright and Reyes.
People say he wasn’t a good drafter yet a look at the current team shows that 6 of 9 Players on the field everyday were aquired when Omar was with this organization and running the player evaluations.
All of the youth you have high hopes for (exception Wheeler) are all Minaya aquisitions.
Add to it the Niese, Gee, Harvey, Holt, Havens, Familia et al…makes for a lot of posters peeing in the wind and getting themselves wet!
The arguments here seem to be less about the facts of what Omar did or what Sandy is doing…ALL the arguments seem to be about two competing PHILOSOPHIES…
And the correct path rides dead center of both those competing ideas!
Where did you get a paint brush that broad?
Donal says:
August 4, 2011 at 8:20 pm
“Actually, lets talk about Murphy. He’s a 3B. That’s all there is to it. And I think he’s a guy who could be a damned good one. ”
That was his worst position in the minors. He actually does a much better job at 1B and 2B….If you think Murphy does a better job @ 2b or 1B, you need to watch another sport.
“Duda is an OF by trade. ”
No, he’s a 1B. He spent 225 games there and 183 in LF. Which is occupied. You’re right for once. Duda was an infielder in High School.
“Fernando Martinez is an OF by trade.”
He didn’t actually play OF until he got into the Mets system.
Sorry, but Fernando Martinez grew up playing CF in the Dominican Republic.
“Ruben Tejada is a SS by trade. ”
Who has an arm too weak to play SS. And his highly vaunted glove glove has been suspect.
This has to be one of the worst comments ever. Tejada has a cannon for an arm and his glove is spectacular considering he’s moving from 2B to SS for most of his young career with the Mets.
“Ike Davis is a 1B by trade.”
Well, there’s 1
“Reese Havens is a SS by trade. ”
And another guy they had to move.
Most infielders are moved from their position. Reese has the tools for SS, but he’s better suited for other spots like 2B or 3B. Same thing with Flores. When you’re the best athlete on your high school or college team, you’re placed in a position best suited for your athlete talent. That’s the case with SS like Wilmer Flores and Reese Havens. If you followed the minors, you would know that, Donal.
In response to “Who has an arm too weak to play shortstop?” Kaz Matsui! How did the scouts overlook that one. I guess we have Omar to thank for moving him to 2b and eventually to the rockies and letting Reyes resume his developing skills at ss.