A Look Back At Failure

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• Pete August 5, 2011 at 2:43 pm

  Another aspect to Omar’s style of scouting, was that hitting talent was tantamount. And he adhered to this principle at the expense of defense, projection and athleticism. That is why so many hitting prospects, signed or drafted by Omar that make it, or will make it to the big leagues are flawed, one-dimensional players. Murphy, Evans, Duda, FMart, Havens, Flores, Marte, Aderlin Rodriguez, Josh Satin, Zach Lutz, Valdespin. There are three things these guys all have in common. They are all Omar guys. They are all hitting prospects. None of them can play defense for shit. Many haven’t found a permanent position yet. It shows major shortsightedness to stock your system with these types of players. If you examine Sandy’s draft this year, you will notice something in common with all the position players he drafted. Size, speed, strength, athleticism. All the outfielder’s he drafted can cover ground, and most can play CF. They are big, and strong, and have well rounded foundations to their games. Just check out the position players acquired by Sandy on the Brooklyn and Kingsport rosters. Look at the SLG, the low strikeout rates, the versatility on defense. That’s how you build a strong farm system, fill it with athletes, and let them grow at their own pace.
  • t agee August 5, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Pete, this is one of the truest things I have ever read.

    Damn true.
    • Pete August 6, 2011 at 8:46 am

      thanks agee, I enjoy reading your comments too.
  • jessep August 5, 2011 at 10:38 pm

    Thanks for the comment Pete. I can’t say I disagree with you. One thing to consider and I don’t know if Omar knew the dimensions of Citi Field the whole time but the stadium is built for pitching speed and defense and so many of Omar’s offensive “prospects” do not have speed or defense.
    • Pete August 6, 2011 at 11:13 am

      Here’s another thing that always irked me about Omar’s drafting Jessep, the heavy focus on college players, and players that would be easy to sign. Not only did he love to draft those college guys that were supposed to be “further along” than prep athletes, but he drafted a ton of college seniors, because of signability. Those players were graduating college and starting out in the short season leagues, and rookie ball at age 22 and 23! By the time they get to say, Binghamton, they are 26 years old! (see Josh Satin, just as an example, drafted three years ago as a 23 yo) It was no wonder these players could dominate in the low minors, they were playing kids three years younger than they were. In the rare cases where Omar drafted a high schooler, and then signed him, there were glimpses of what might have been had he drafted more high ceiling high school athletes all along, like Jon Niese, I think he was a ninth rounder, no big deal but he took a shot, why not more often Omar? Now Sandy’s draft is interesting. He took a lot more high school players, nearly fifty-fifty, now if he can just sign them, we would really have something! The deadline is Aug 15th. But in general, Sandy’s players were much younger in the draft. Even of the college players he took, there were practically no seniors, but there were several key sophomores already signed like Cole Frenzel.
      • t agee August 6, 2011 at 3:02 pm

        Another good point Pete.

        Drafting college Sr’s is just a way to even out the bankroll. Say the owners agree to allocate 10 M to the draft, taking some signability type guys helps afford the tougher sign. Every team does that to some extent. TB had to do it with their 11 early round selections but this is no way for a big market team to behave. Selecting players for signability (or speed in getting up here for mop up duty) instead of selecting them for highest possible impact whenever that may occur.

        What has repeatedly happened to us is that we have spent huge on a college pitcher in the first round, had no 2nd or 3rd round pick due to signing FA’s and then STILL skimped on drafting the higher upside HS kid. This brought our draft expenditure down to the lowest percentile. And you wonder why we never have any in house solutions.

        Or it could go the other way. We have no 1st round pick so we save a bundle there and yet still select the medium ceiling, medium floor college pitcher in the 2nd and 3rd round. The truly hard part to believe is that as many “safe” choices as we have selected and the unfathomable bust rate of them all. Just hard to believe. Harder to believe is that Minaya couldn’t have gone to the Wilpon, explain the dilema, spend 5-10 M less and select all high upside guys. Of course he probably did but to no avail because of the Wilpon refusal to go against Selig’s slotting guidelines.

        Drafting college Sr’s especially kills you because their class had the top 20% of talent siphoned off the top before they even went to college, then had 70% taken as Soph (if eligeable) and Jr’s. By the time we select college Sr’s the talent level is pretty low and the options for that Sr., baseball wise limited so there fore easier to sign.

        Take a guy like Den Dekker. Talent wise looks like a good bet to stick in CF, question is will he be able to lower his K rate in order to hit enough up here. At 23 with just a handful of games above A+ there really is no time to develop him. He’s already playing against guys younger and striking out quite a bit. By the time he puts all his skills together he’ll face a whole new learning curve up here so when is it likely his skills will all be at the top of their game at the same time and he’ll have gotten past the learning curve in the Majors? 26 at best. That leaves him a short time to get his entire career’s work in. 24-31 is a players true prime and he’s already lost two full years of it. If he suffers through an injury plagued year he’s really in trouble. And this is a guy who DOES have the talent to play one of the more difficult positions, imagine the guys who don’t? The Duda’s, Thole’s, Evans, Murphy’s, Turners ect. These guys have very short careers even when they do make it.
• jdon August 5, 2011 at 3:55 pm

  Omar did some good, Pedro was fun for awhile. But anybody with a checkbook can get Pedro and Beltran, at the time they were out there, and Beltran stiill tried to deal with the yankees. Delgado blew him off in a fit of temper. A year in no man’s land cured him of his aversion for NY, and he forced a trade. The trade for Santana fell from the sky when the Yankees and the Sox canceled each other out. So in a way, Omar fell into it. It is hard to hide imcompetence, however. I cannot believe that anyone who ever heard Omar talk for a period of time did not come away form the conversation shaking their head. But to each his own. When he got here, he said he wanted to build a younger, more athletic team. So he brought in Pedro, El Duque, Delgado, LoDuca (the Pillsbury Dough Boy), Ramon Castro, Ollie and Luis, and Moises Alou, just to name a few. Point was, he had no plan and did not know where he was going almost all of the time. You just cannot have that in a GM.
  • t agee August 5, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    I don’t care how he talks. He talks like a lot of guys I hang out with. The getting “younger and more athletic” is dead on balls accurate though. Even talked about bringing back Sosa here and refused to rule out Bonds.

    Hey he didn’t have much to work with when he got here fair enough. Pedro was fun, changed the whole atmosphere. I loved watching the guy pitch but even I knew a #2 wasn’t a wise baseball move but there ARE other considerations and I can understand the gate, culture change ect. Beltran, one of the 10 best CFers of all time at 28-34 years of age for a #3 round pick. Sure. All over that. Delgado for prospects and Jacobs, sure. Wagner for a #1. Uh oh. Moises for a #1? Get ****** real. drafting college relief pitchers? C’mon man. Trading the two #1 picks that went along with Wagner for yet another 1B/LF/utility/DH? What are you thinking man? Resigning Castillo and Perez for 60 M when we could have gotten two supplementary round picks? Another closer for a #1 pick? An injured relief pitcher for 4 prospects and two guys out of our pen? Schowenweiss? Mota? Bay? Jacobs? GMJ? There’s just too much here.

    Yeah the farm is 100 times better but most of it is a long way off and some will fall by the wayside and even if they all did make it up, those kids teamed up with Harvey and Davis and 6 LF/1B/utility/DH types isn’t a 90 win team.

    Man talk about opportunity squandered. Omar Minaya could have done one of the best jobs a GM ever did right here if he only concentrated on getting us competitive on the Major league side without costing prospects and draft picks he could have built a MONSTER TEAM. It was all right there to be had. He could have selected off the bottom of the menu and gotten BETTER PLAY WITHOUT taking anything away from 2010-2020 and even recycled some of his undervalued young guys to add to those teams.

    Alou is a great example. If Minaya waits just one week he gets Alou and KEEPS our #1 pick. If he waits two weeks he can take a look at the non tender list (Jayson Werth was on it) or he could go rule 5, swing a trade. Jeez, a #1 pick for a 40 year old outfielder?

    And some people blame unforeseen injuries.
    • jessep August 5, 2011 at 10:40 pm

      agee: I think frankly he panicked after 2007. He may or may not have had a gameplan but after the 07 collapse, all hell broke loose and he lost control and he lost his way.
    • jdon August 6, 2011 at 5:47 am

      I wasn’t referring to the WAY he talked, just what he said. He was always all over the place during interviews. Heck, Sparky Anderson sounded like a dope but he knew the game.
• The Coop August 5, 2011 at 4:01 pm

  I especially like your intro where you weave into politics. Truth is, anyone can cherry pick what they like about a certain person and try to be objective when the reality is, in the next breath they are bashing the successor.

  This, this, and this. Thanks Jessep
• OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 4:38 pm

  Wow! Jessep, I’m sorry, but I find it difficult to call you an Omar defender before, during or after Adam Rubin. I LOVE how you call a man who won more games than ANY GM in his first 4 years as GM a failure. If that’s the case, every Met GM has been a “FAILURE” in his first 4 years on the job. Why don’t you take a look at every GM the Mets have ever had and tell me how they did and where the Mets went in his first 4 years. You might be surprised by what you find out. It also might educate you on just how good Omar was. And in the event you want to to begin talking payrolls, see where the Mets landed in regard to payroll totals compared to everyone else in baseball at the time. Once again, you might learn a thing or two. And don’t keep your figures private or I will run them for the board.

  Omar only built a major league team? This is the big leagues. How incredibly convenient of you to discard his efforts by whining about the minors. This isn’t looking back and second guessing. This is an agenda filled piece of rubbish directed @ Omar Minaya. Are you Adam Rubin’s family member? Nice of you to ignore 4 successful seasons of winning baseball.

  As for the Mets using Mickeas as the option for the big league roster, Lutz, Kirk, Ratliff, Fmart are injured. Either of them would have received a call over that loser. As for your notion that Omar did his job, he actually did. That’s why the major league roster has STARTERS contributing because of his drafting and scouting. His job, right? If the Mets were .500 without their ace and 2 middle of the order boppers (Ike and Wright) for a huge chunk of the season, where would they be right now? 4 games out, perhaps? Maybe closer? And you would most likely be singing a tune propping up Alderson, I’m sure.

  He didn’t leave the Mets with a farm system? A solid basis? The Mets have a prospect at almost every position except ace and catcher. What more do you want? Sorry, but Sammy Sosa or Pudge or Igor aren’t in the system at the moment. And just how would you know it wasn’t Omar’s focus. If it were, he surely would have traded Pelfrey or Niese in the Johan trade. He surely would have traded some of his kids when the 2009 season was going down the drain. Omar not focusing on the minors is YOUR opinion and quite wrong, my friend. You’re fooling no one with the NY POST-esque rhetoric. As for pitchers not being ready to produce, what do you call Niese and Gee? Are they imaginary? If Harvey keeps dominating AA like he has his last two starts, expect him to arrive next year. Followed by Familia and hopefully a fully rehabbed Mejia. You’ve heard of the guy who is responsible for them being in the organization, right?

  As for bullpens, teams rarely have successful bullpens from their minor league system. They are interchangeable pieces for the most part. Very good setup men leave to become dominant closers or they simply become bullpen fodder who burn out over their career. That’s been the pattern for the greater part of the last 2 decades. You’re reaching for an excuse for whatever purposes. The bullpen development complaint doesn’t hold water. Look @ the most successful team in the last 20 years. The Yankees don’t succeed with minor league bullpen arms. They used MO and about 100 guys from other organizations.

  From 2005-2008, the Mets have developed Ike, Smith, Gee, Niese, Murphy, Duda, Pelfrey, and Parnell. That’s 60% of their current rotation. That’s a middle of the order lefty power bat @ 1B and possibly a power hitting lefty RF. They also developed some utility guys like Murphy and Tejada.

  Using Ubaldo and the Yankees is a silly example. The Yankees want to flip their prospects for an ace. They felt Ubaldo wasn’t one. No huge mystery. And quite frankly, the Rockies did the right thing staying away from the Yankees and their traditionally overrated minor leaguers. And crediting the Yankees for using SCRUB minor leaguers who have never amounted to starting big league players is hypocritical, considering you’re pining for a GM to build a system. The Yankees haven’t built a system since Gene Michaels was running the show in the early 90′s during George’s suspension years. Hughes is a flash in the pan. Joba is worthless and has been since 2006. Noesi, Nova, Cervelli? Are you kidding me? Gardner is a part time player at best. He’s another Melky Cabrera. Nunez is a shaky arm defender who is nervous playing at this level. Cano and Robertson are all Mr. Cashman can take credit for when it comes to developing legit starting players. And you’re considering Brackman and Banuelos as legit top prospects? LOL. If Cashman’s history of drafting and international scouting tells you anything, it’s that he’s not very good at it. Jesus Montero is in AAA being exposed as a guy who can’t catch effectively. That makes his bat less salacious if you place him in RF. Sanchez and Romine have performed to non- blue chip prospect levels in the minors this year. Once again, take a peek at Cashman’s 12 year history of scouting and drafting. Its nothing to write home to mom about. Certainly a poor example if you want to talk current prospects.

  Cutting payroll is a joke, especially when the owner has the funds to make the team better. The Wilpons did this after 2001. They stripped the team after 2003. It was senseless thinking, so I thought. Once things go wrong, the Wilpons want to blow things up and start fresh. This isn’t a garden. You don’t give Omar the green light to sign Johan Santana to an extension and then turn around and squeeze payroll in 2009. That’s backwards country boy thinking. Definitely NOT what it takes to own a team in New York, which generates the revenue streams to make the team profitable by way of signing stud free agents. You don’t tell your GM you’re ripping away 40 million in payroll and it wont be going back into the club the following year. The Mets were breaking attendance marks from 2006-2008. How in the world were their revenues not able to sustain a payroll in the 140′s? That’s pretty much impossible. In actuality, it’s BS.

  As for our young players, who would be shocked to see Gee, Niese and Ike make the All-Star team in the future? The idea that Omar didn’t care about the minors is a straight out opinion which does not represent the facts. Now, you may want to complain about a lack of a organization changing superstar not found by Omar, but that’s tough luck. Chipper Jones, Pudge, Sammy Sosa and others of that ilk don’t come around every year. As for your contention that Omar didn’t get the middle relief guys like Robertson, I present you Parnell. We will see where his development takes him. Same with Daniel Murphy, who is among the league leaders in batting average.

  Omar didn’t leave Alderson with a failing roster. .500 record isn’t failing. What’s failing is the owner not investing in his team, because he wants to save some dollars. He’s hiding behind some buffer that states he was robbed by Madoff. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Wilpons made money. That’s why they’re scared of Picard. They have to give money back. Enough with the lies. Omar left the Mets stocked with prospects. He left them ample talent in the bigs to compete. That’s why they’re .500. Had they kept their guys (K-Rod and Beltran) they’re over .500. If Wright, Ike and Santana were healthy, this team is contending for a playoff spot without Alderson’s help. Hard pill to swallow for those with agendas who want to blame Omar for not winning rings during his tenure as Met GM.

  As for the Mets having gaping holes, the holes they had were created when their star players all went down to injury. Give that scenario to the Phillies and they won’t find much success either, much like the 2008 Yankees suffered through a non-playoff year despite contributions from their minors and a 200 million dollar payroll.

  As for the Phillies, they’re not concerned with keeping prospects because they’re a viable team capable of winning the world series. Their “future” is next week, next month, October. The Mets would be in the same playoff boat if our owners would spend money and our main guys were on the field.

  This is the problem with Met fans. This idea we’re a failure. The team is .500. They’re playing well and would have stayed over .500 had they kept K-Rod and Beltran. Problem is we were “forced” to deal them because ownership wants to continue giving off the impression they’re headed straight for the poor house. Omar is no failure. Our failure lies with our own fans and the media forcing the Wilpons into doing something irrational. You don’t send away a man who has done what no other GM has done for the organization. He didn’t win a ring, but it’s surely not his fault. He did his job. His job was to make the team competitive. He did that. His job was to develop the minor league system. He did that. His job was to compete every year. He only failed his last two seasons because of injuries and an owner unwilling to spend more money. You DON’T fire the man for those reasons. The Mets fired him because of off the field nonsense. It was a political move made to save face. The media forced the Wilpons to make a dumb move.

  The Mets don’t need 3-4 years to figure out whether Omar “failed”, because the man was a brilliant GM who did a fantastic job. I, for one, greatly appreciate 2005-2008. Only ignorant second guessers and those with hidden agendas have problems with what Omar did. He successfully began schools in Latin American countries. He made the Mets relevant in areas they were incredibly weak. He broke the bank in attendance and created a winning culture. If you wouldn’t trade for 2005-2008 RIGHT NOW, you’re full of you know what. I would take any of those seasons RIGHT NOW in exchange for this situation we’re in.

  As for the future, here’s is what you’re going to see. You’re going to see the Mets try and give credit to Alderson for creating a “winner” with a low budget payroll. The media and their agendas will ride that wave if the Mets indeed compete. However, reality will state that Alderson will be winning with players OMAR MINAYA signed/drafted. Unless the Wilpons open up the checkbook and trade for highly paid free agents, Alderson will be REQUIRED to succeed with OMAR’S KIDS. To suggest Omar was a failure is silly. He did a great job with us. And if the Mets succeed/are competitive within the next 3 years, you will be smooching Omar’s tail, because his kids/acquisitions are the ones who will lead the way.
  • Trufan August 5, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    You can bash Cashman all you want, but the fact is the Yankees have had more highly regarded minor league systems than the Mets the past 4-5 years. In that period the Yankees have produced more quality major leaguers than the Mets. Omar has yet to produce a player as good as Cano or Gardner, who is one of the best outfielders in the AL and if he was on the Mets he would be our 2nd best player, as he was easily their 2nd best position player last season. Joba would have been the best arm in the pen for the Mets. Add to that Tabata, Kennedy, Jackson, Robertson, Clippard, Melancon, Aceves, Coke, and it’s obvious the Yankeess’ farm has outproduced the Mets’ in both quality and quantity. Oh, as for your claim that “the Yankees don’t succeed with minor league bullpen arms”, all evidence I provided point to the contrary.
    • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 5:40 pm

      Cashman has been an utter DISASTER. Kennedy is ONLY starting pitcher experiencing success. Melancon is a middle reliever who is nothing special. Clippard has been a nice middle reliever for an awful franchise. Easy to pitch when there’s no pressure. Tabata was supposed to be this power hitting Bernie Williams Carlos Beltran type. A bust so far. Aceves was a free agent toiling in the Mexican league who is an average middle reliever. Phil Coke is a bum. Give me a break. Austin Jackson is another overrated overhyped prospect. The Tigers were taken for fools on that trade.

      You need to learn a little bit more about Omar Minaya. Omar Minaya was responsible for Jose Reyes, Angel Pagan, Nelson Cruz, Melvin Mora (toiling in Japan), Timo Perez, Sammy Sosa, Ivan Rodriguez, and Juan Gonzalez. Are you sure you want to compare Cashman’s history with Omar’s? Cashman looks like a welfare case next to Omar. Gardner? Gardner is a part time scrub. On any other team, he’s riding pine, my friend. When it’s all said and done, we’re going to see how many of Omar’s kids from 2005-2010 make it to the bigs and perform. Then we will take a look back and see what Cashman drafted/signed from 1998-2003 (or any other 6 year period) and we will draw comparisons then.

      And what success are we talking about? Want to go over their playoff FAILURES in the pen since 2001? Want to re-visit their choke in 2004 or their outright gag last year? Their ring in 2009 came after they spent 500 MILLION in total free agent dollars after the 2008 season.

      Anyone comparing Omar’s success to Cashman’s is pretty funny…lol
      • Trufan August 5, 2011 at 6:05 pm

        Your examples of Reyes, Pagan, Cruz, Mora, Perez, etc are all moot because the debate is about Omar’s competency as a GM who can build a good farm system, not his ability as a scout.

        In 2010 Gardner had a fWAR of 6.2, which is 7th highest in MLB for all outfielders, meaning he was one of top 20 most valuable players in the game. This season he has 3.9 fWAR which is toe to toe with Beltran’s fWAR of 3.8.

        You can argue all you want, but unless you can provide any concrete evidence that the players that came out of the Mets system has been better than the Yankees’ system, you are not convincing anyone.
        • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 8:13 pm

          LMAO…Is that one of those stat geek sabremetric stats guys use to make themselves appear intelligent? When a stat tries to imply a POS like Gardner is on the same level as a guy who will have HOF consideration attached to his name, you know it’s time to leave these fantasy league stats in the garbage. Don’t you ever compare these two players if you want to be taken seriously. LMAO @ comparing Beltran and Gardner..LOL.

          Omar made his bones in baseball by scouting and recognizing talent. That’s the #1 talent a GM and his staff must have. If you need “concrete” proof that Omar is a better judge of talent than Cashman will ever be, and a better GM to boot, you need to a better argument than some insane stat that overrates an average player like Gardner.
          • Trufan August 5, 2011 at 10:34 pm

            Ha, it’s obvious you have no arguments to support your point other than throwing invectives at things that you don’t understand without even trying to understand them. Geeky or not, stats are infinitely more insightful and objective than your snarky ramblings. Sandy Alderson pioneered the use of statistical analysis in baseball front offices, which many teams from the Rays to the Red Sox use. Oh, and he won 4 division titles, 3 pennants, and a WS as a GM, which is way more than Omar can compare to.

            ps. No fantasy leagues I know of uses sabermetrics.
            • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 11:10 pm

              TruFan- you think I mock you because I’m some porker swallowing M&M’s from home? Any stupid stat (and yes it’s very stupid) that puts a guy like Gardner in the same league as Carlos Beltran (a man with Hall of Fame credentials) is something that shouldn’t be taken seriously. And NO I’m not wasting my time figuring out what it is. Nor do I want to because of the way it portrays a part time player. As for Sandy’s “accomplishments” I have to laugh. He won off the backs of MLB’s very first blatant steroid users. It was Alderson who forged a winning “blueprint” with two shady characters in Canseco and Big Mac. Nice to live off those laurels, because it’s been over 20 years since Alderson did anything meaningful in baseball. I will rest my cap on people who actually participated in the game (like Omar did) over a man who made it to GM of Oakland via gold ole fashioned hook ups.

              As for a little education for you, obviously you’re a little Wikipedia fan and are crediting the 1989 team to Alderson. The A’s had Big Mac under watch in 1981 when they drafted him but he didn’t sign. Canseco was signed before Alderson arrived, so he was given his 2 best players. Alderson won nothing afterward. It wasn’t until Beane arrived (a former player) where the prospects (more steroid users) started working their way into the system. There go some much needed “facts” for you.

              I’m still LMAO @ some stupid stat that compares Beltran and Gardner..LOL
              • Trufan August 6, 2011 at 12:27 am

                Plenty of top picks are drafted but don’t sign, just because the A’s drafted McGuire in 1981 doesn’t necessarily mean he was any more of a bet to succeed in the majors nor any less obvious of a top talent. Your steroids argument holds no water because it’s not the GM’s job to ensure that the players don’t use PEDs (and PEDs wasn’t illegal at the time), his job is to build contender. The only major contributors on those A’s playoff teams Alderson inherited were Canseco and Ricky Henderson. Let’s see how the A’s got all the major contributors on those playoff teams.

                Dave Henderson – FA
                Ricky Henderson – inherited
                Carney Lansford – trade
                Mark McGuire – drafted
                Jose Canseco – inherited
                Eckersley – trade
                Todd Burns – draft
                Mike Moore – FA
                Dave Stewart – FA
                Bob Welch – trade
                Rick Honeycutt – FA
                Walt Weiss – draft
                Terry Steinbach – draft
                Mike Bordick – amateur FA

                When Alderson became GM of the A’s they were a 70+ win team. He acquired most of the key players on those playoff teams. When he left, Beane inherited several important players Sandy drafted. Let’s see some of the key players on those early 2000 teams that were acquired when Sandy was GM:

                Jason Giambi – draft
                Eric Chávez – draft
                Miguel Tejada – draft
                Tim Hudson – draft
                Ramón Hernández – draft
              • XtreemIcon August 6, 2011 at 12:45 am

                “As for Sandy’s “accomplishments” I have to laugh. He won off the backs of MLB’s very first blatant steroid users.”

                “Omar Minaya was responsible for … Sammy Sosa, Ivan Rodriguez, and Juan Gonzalez.”

                Wait…..what?
                • jessep August 6, 2011 at 8:30 am

                  Exactly Xtreem. If you’re going to try and act as though Alderson’s success in Oakland was solely due to Mac and Canseco (and not you know, their amazing pitching staff which was really why they won the WS) then don’t come to me with Sosa and Juan Gone as examples of Omar’s greatness
                  • OmarFan August 6, 2011 at 9:09 am

                    Show me where Sammy Sosa tested positive for steroids or PEDS. Sosa is an example of how the media forms opinions and fans attempt to pass them off as facts. Sammy Sosa was never accused by anyone other than the media of using steroids. Sammy Sosa was never found guilty except in the eyes of a foolish media member in Chicago and a suspect NY Times report that accused him without proof or verification. That’s called a witch hunt. Until a report surfaces with Sosa’s name attached to it using an illegal substance (and not asthma or sinus medication which tests you positive either) Sosa should not have any steroid user title attached to his name. He is not Palmeiro, Tejada, Canseco, Giambi or Clemens.
                  • OmarFan August 6, 2011 at 9:20 am

                    Oh and add Pudge to that list as well. Pudge has never admitted nor was he ever found guilty of using PEDS. For you steroid screamers, and those who want to believe Canseco, so be it. That’s the only piece of “proof” that states Pudge used steroids. Canseco was selling a book and took down anyone he could get his hands on. To date, No one has proof Ivan Rodriguez used steroids/PEDS. If you’re going by accusations of former players, Mike Piazza is a steroid user. How does that one feel?
                  • jessep August 6, 2011 at 9:16 am

                    OmarFan: Are you kidding me right now? You realize your comment below just killed any sort of credibility you have or had with regards to Omar Minaya. You CLEARLY have an agenda of defending him against anything and everything, no matter what.

                    You’re HONESTLY trying to sit there and tell me Sammy Sosa’s steroid use is a witchhunt? Before McGwire admitted it, wouldn’t you say the same about him? Give me a break.

                    There are reports that Sosa tested positive in 2003. That report doesn’t count?

                    For crying out loud the guy claimed he couldn’t speak english well enough to testify and then in winter of 2010 he admitted he lied!

                    Get real OmarFan. Minaya had his positives, but if you try to sell me on them and ignore the positive of Sosa being a steroid user, you’re just an agenda driven fan who wouldn’t admit to any faults.

                    “Show me where Sammy Sosa tested positive for steroids or PEDS. Sosa is an example of how the media forms opinions and fans attempt to pass them off as facts. Sammy Sosa was never accused by anyone other than the media of using steroids. Sammy Sosa was never found guilty except in the eyes of a foolish media member in Chicago and a suspect NY Times report that accused him without proof or verification. That’s called a witch hunt. Until a report surfaces with Sosa’s name attached to it using an illegal substance (and not asthma or sinus medication which tests you positive either) Sosa should not have any steroid user title attached to his name. He is not Palmeiro, Tejada, Canseco, Giambi or Clemens”
                  • jessep August 6, 2011 at 9:26 am

                    I frankly do not care who did or didn’t take roids. I think if you played in the era and didn’t TRY them, you’re a rarity. If you tell me today Piazza took them I wouldn’t be upset or shocked.

                    Denying that Sammy Sosa took steroids is a joke. It just proves you have an Omar Minaya agenda. He just magically turned into a .600-.737 slugger from age 29-32 right? It just happened. He somehow gained strength when players power numbers start to decline. But no, he never took anything. Hey, neither did Bonds for that matter right?

                    Get real OmarFan. Living in a world of constant denial will make you miss out on reality.
                  • XtreemIcon August 6, 2011 at 10:58 am

                    McGwire never failed a steroid test, either. Ever. Neither did Bonds. He was clean, too, right?
            • Vinny B August 6, 2011 at 12:20 am

              fWAR uses UZR, and UZR takes THREE YEARS to be accurate, so how can it be accurate to judge Garnder’s ONE season? It can’t be.

              And by the way, the Phillies, don’t use the statistical analysis that Sandy Alderson pioneered, and they are the best team in baseball.

              Special assistant to Phillies GM Charley Kerfeld:

              “I think defensive statistics are the most unpredictable stats there are”

              “And since I’ve been here, we don’t have an in-house stats guy and I kind of feel we never will. We’re not a statistics-driven organization by any means.”

              “I’m not against statistics. Everybody has their own way of doing things. But the Phillies believe in what our scouts see and what our eyes tell us and what our people tell us.”

              http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/2018/do-phillies-ignore-sabermetrics

              The Phillies are doing just fine without sabermetrics – They are the best team in baseball, and they doesn’t use sabermetrics.
              • Trufan August 6, 2011 at 1:25 am

                Gardner does have 3+ years (1393 PA) of performance to stabilize his UZR, and it’s not like it’s hard to see how good of a fielder he is with your own eyes.

                The Phillies’ success is built on their scouting and drafting. They’ve developed plenty of good players and traded for others with their deep farm system. But it’s not like they haven’t made any dumb moves. The Howard contract is one of the worst in baseball. They got fleeced in the Lidge deal. It was idiotic to trade away Lee just so they could sign Halladay.
                • Vinny B August 6, 2011 at 11:14 am

                  “This season he has 3.9 fWAR which is toe to toe with Beltran’s fWAR of 3.8.”

                  And I’m saying that’s not true because takes three years to be accurate – You can’t judge how he’s doing compared to Beltran THIS year by fWAR because it takes THREE years for it to be accurate.

                  Every team has made a number of bad moves. But it really shows how good of a franchise you are if your “bad move” is trading for Brad Lidge, a guy who was a big piece in their WS win in 08. And if your another one of your “bad moves” is locking up your home grown allstar 1B, who is a lock to hit 30HR’s every year, that just really shows what a great franchise they are.

                  And you can talk about all the “dumb moves” you want, but you can’t argue with the success they have had – best team in baseball, and have done it without sabermetrics.
                  • Trufan August 6, 2011 at 12:29 pm

                    It takes about twice as much data for UZR to provide an accurate measure of a player’s true defensive ability than hitting. So one season of hitting (about 500 PAs) takes about 1000 PAs to accurately gauge defense. Gardner has 970 PAs in the past two seasons and his UZR has tops in the majors at 41.2, with 2nd place going to Adrian Beltre at 22.

                    Lidge only gave them one great season. He was bad or hurt the rest of the time. The Astros got Bourn who has been one of the best CF’s in the game for past 2.5 seasons. If the Phillies had kept Bourn, they wouldn’t had to sign Ibanez who’s been a bust. Ryan Howard has been on a steady decline for the past 2 seasons. This season he is only the 14th best hitting 1B in the game. Daniel Murphy has been an equally productive hitter this year as Howard (.352 wOBA vs .354 wOBA), all while being a better defender and more versatile. How much is Howard making from 2011 to 2017?

                    2011: $20.00 million.
                    2012: $20.00 million.
                    2013: $20.00 million.
                    2014: $25.00 million.
                    2015: $25.00 million.
                    2016: $25.00 million.
                    2017: $23.00 million club option ($10.00 million buyout).

                    You tell me that’s not an awful contract for a declining 31 year old 1B.
                  • Vinny B August 6, 2011 at 1:05 pm

                    The Phillies are the best team in the MLB, one bad contract doesn’t change the fact that they are a great franchise – Are the Giants a bad franchise because the signed Zito and Rowand to bad contracts? No.

                    the Lidge trade was actually a win for both teams – The Astros got a good player, and Lidge helped them win a WS – Nothing is more valuable than a WS, so that’s why it was a good trade for the Phillies.

                    And the thing about Ryan Howard is that he’s consistent – He’s hit over 30 HR’s and drove in 100 runs in every full season that he’s played – So a few hitters might have a better single season than him, but over a course of a number of years they won’t, since Howard is consistently good. Also, too much is made of his “decline”, he’s still a very dangerous hitter.

                    and about Gardner and Beltran, Beltran hasn’t played three full seasons in RF, so judging him by fWAR this season won’t be accurate. I also believe what Charlie Kerfeld said about defensive stats, that they are unpredictable.
                  • Trufan August 6, 2011 at 3:31 pm

                    “So a few hitters might have a better single season than him, but over a course of a number of years they won’t, since Howard is consistently good.”

                    Actually, over the past 3.5 seasons Howard has only been about the 10th best hitting 1B in MLB. While that’s above average, it’s hardly elite production. The Howard contract will handicap them in the near future.

                    Yes the Phillies are a great team right now, they did it through several great drafts and trades. If you are arguing that it’s possible to build a great team without sabermetrics, you’ll get no argument from me. I’ve never said that sabermetrics is the end all be all. No baseball team only looks at stats. But advanced stats can provide a useful tool to identify undervalued talents (in this case Gardner) and provide context and insight into the varying performances of players from season to season. I used Heath Bell as an example of a player whose poor performance with the Mets can be attributed to poor luck in small sample sizes. I can use Matt Harvey as another example of a pitcher who has struck out and walked the same # of hitters per 9 innings and gave up HRs at the same rate in A+ and AA but has an ERA that’s 2.5 higher because of variance in BABIP and LOB%.
    • t agee August 5, 2011 at 9:26 pm

      Well I have numerous problems with Minaya but I would take him 100 times out of 100 over Cashmen. Cashman never had to deal with owners reluctant to go over slot, spend big on the BEST international talent or are so thin skinned that everything they do is determined by how the public will percieve it or what the media may write about.

      The NYY got their **** together under Gene Michael and have only really needed a tinkerer or caretaker ever since. To compare the two is a joke.
      • jdon August 6, 2011 at 5:49 am

        It is really hard to rate a yankee GM since he has so much margin for error. He wins just about EVERY bidding war. And he sneexes at mistakes. Cashman really stinks in the area of pitchers. This obsession with a lineup that seems to always shut down in post season is laughable.
  • MetsMan86 August 5, 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Really?! The biggest spending spree in team history and the Mets only make the playoffs ONE TIME, and yet the man who put together those teams didn’t fail?! The Pirates would love to have you as a fan of theirs.
    • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 5:47 pm

      Nope, Omar didn’t fail. Obviously I must have missed all the World Series winning GM’s that rolled in after Frank Cashen. I must have forgotten all those winning seasons in the early 90′s and early 2000′s. Where was I? lol. The New York Mets have always been the highest or amongst the highest payroll teams in the NL since the 80′s. I wonder how many of you recognize that before mouthing off @ Omar Minaya and his spending. How many times in our history have we been playoff contenders 4 years in a row like we were under Omar? I wonder if some of you cared to look @ our history. I wonder why some of you are so quick to bash Omar after all the success we had. That’s right…SUCCESS. Hard word to identify with since the Mets haven’t had much success in their history. Omar was a success. And I pray that we are competitive in the next 3 years so the praise can he tossed towards Omar Minaya.

      Some of us Met fans have a LONG memory.
      • Pete August 5, 2011 at 6:38 pm

        You gave Omar credit for Reyes earlier….I think you got carried away, he inherited Reyes from Steve Phillips, along with DWright. The Omar era began with Pedro. You should get your facts straight.
        • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 8:16 pm

          I’m sorry, but you are very misinformed, Pete. Omar and his people found Reyes. Phillips had as much to do with finding Reyes and you did. Unless you forgot that Omar was in charge of scouting for the Mets in the 90′s. YOU get YOUR facts straight, my friend.
          • t agee August 6, 2011 at 3:24 pm

            Omar was the head of the Mets international scouting under Phillips. He had nothing to do with the domestic side which included only three useful Major League players in 17 1st, 2nd or 3rd round picks. Heiman, Wright Kazmir.

            3 guys out of 17 in the first 3 rounds. That’s pathetic.

            Minaya has to be given credit for the Mets signing Reyes simply for the fact that it was done while he was the head of INTERNATIONAL scouting. How much of an impact was he in finding or signing him will probably always be in dispute but personally I credit Eddie Toledo who was hired by Frank Cashen and subsequently dismissed by Minaya and now runs the DR for the Marlins for signing Reyes.

            Minaya himself has said he got a phone call from Toledo saying he wanted authorization to sign Reyes for 15 Grand and Omar laughingly told him go right ahead. None the less Minaya was the Director of International Scouting when Reyes was signed.

            I’m quite sure Phillips heard about it the hallway or at the water cooler later that week.
      • Bundy August 5, 2011 at 9:13 pm

        Contenders under Omar – while the bullpen was putting up record blown saves and he did nothing to improve it, NOTHING……….

        If Omar’s tenure is SUCCESS to you, I’d hate to see your definition of failure…….
        • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 9:49 pm

          You want failure? Try being a Royals fan or a Nationals fan. Matter of fact, why don’t you go root for them, Bundy. See how fun that is and then get back to us? Even BETTER ask the Pirate fans if they would take 2005-2008 from their band of LOSERS over the last 20 years.

          Speaking of the Nationals, the last time they were competitive, Omar Minaya was their GM……
          • Trufan August 5, 2011 at 11:04 pm

            LOL, I can’t believe you are using the Royals and Pirates as benchmarks of failure. Talk about stooping to low standards. The Mets have spent way more than those teams over the past decade. Being held to those kind of standards is letting Omar and Phillips off too easily.

            Btw, both the Royals and the Nationals are on their way up. The Nats especially will be a force in the NL in a couple of years when guys like Harper, Strasbourg, Peacock, and Rendon join their already impressive core of young players like Zimmerman, Espinosa, Zimmermann, Storen, and Ramos.

            Also, it’s funny that you mention Omar’s stint with the Expos, where he traded away Lee, Sizemore, and Phillips for Colon. He also traded Bay for Lou Collier. He traded Pavano for Cliff Floyd, whom he dealt to Boston for nothing. He traded away Chris Young. You can argue that he single-handedly dismantled the future of that team. But hey, us Mets fans at least can thank him for dealing Bay to the Mets.
            • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 11:20 pm

              The Nats are in LAST place, son. As for the Royals and the Pirates, I remember when the Mets WERE those teams in the 70′s and early 90′s. You may not be old enough to remember, but I DO! I, unlike you, appreciate when the Mets are contenders, because for most of their existence they have been JOKES. I don’t give a rat’s POOP if the Mets spend 400 million. If they’re competitive and win more games than they lose, I’m cool with it. You, nor any fan, have a right to expect them to win a title with our history. That’s never been their history.

              As for the Nationals, Omar was hired by MLB. The Nats were on the verge of contraction so Omar was told to put a competitive team out there. That’s what Omar did. You did know that, right? You have to love the media twisting the minds of fans who don’t know anything other than reading their constant lies and manipulations. Then again, why tell the truth about Omar turning the team into a contender for a year? Lets focus on a meaningless trade for players who were going to be spread around baseball if they took the Nats apart.

              Keep laughing though..lol
              • Trufan August 6, 2011 at 12:50 am

                The Nats are only 1.5 games behind the Mets, son, all while having about $50M lower payroll. I appreciate the Mets being contenders as much as any other Mets fan, whether their payroll is high or low. I don’t expect them to win or even be competitive every year, but I expect the front office to have a sound plan for building a team that can compete for more than a couple of years. Omar’s plan failed, his plan was to build the team around his three stars and fill the rest of the team with scrapheap players and hope one of them pans out. His plan was to trade for and sign old declining players who could give the team one or two good years and hope age and injury don’t get them because there’s no depth behind them. It’s the same strategy he had in Montreal where he traded all those young players and prospects immediate help. Even if he was forced to go for it in 2002, his plan failed even more when the Expos finish with 83 wins in both 2002 and 2003 and left that franchise in full rebuilding mode for all these years.
                • OmarFan August 6, 2011 at 9:33 am

                  If you subtract Santana, Beltran and K-Rod where is our payroll, son? And YES you remove Santana because he has not played a game this year. The difference in payroll then is not as grand. And the Nationals are STILL a last place squad. I love how you and the rest of the kids on the internet believe this “aging players” nonsense the media claims Omar built the Mets on. The Mets didn’t build their base off guys like Alou, Duque, and Julio Franco. Omar added superstar players like Johan, Beltran, and Pedro and Delgado. Even Bay isn’t considered old.

                  For you to constantly bring up the Expos shows where your mindset is at. THE TEAM WAS ON THE VERGE OF CONTRACTION! You understand what that means? They didn’t have an owner! lol
          • Bundy August 6, 2011 at 8:54 am

            Oh good come back – go be a Royals fan………..
      • jessep August 5, 2011 at 10:44 pm

        OmarFan: If you are satisfied with making the playoffs 1 year out of 6, more power to you. I’m not, and when you spend over $100mil a year and only hit the postseason once? I don’t care what the reasons or excuses are… but you failed. It’s a joke to even try to say otherwise.

        If he had made it to the playoffs 4 out of 6 times and never won a WS, he’d fail but on a different and more respectable level. Getting to the postseason once is a failure.
        • jessep August 5, 2011 at 10:48 pm

          OmarFan: I think overall you’re going to defend Omar on anything anybody says. I think it is nice that you are loyal, but I am starting to not take your view serious. I think you’re clouded by trying to be on the other side of an argument. You actually tried to brag about “finding” Timo Perez. You’re telling me getting to the postseason 1 out of 6 years spending over $100m isn’t a failure.

          I’m sorry that Minaya failed. I wanted him to succeed. I really did. But he failed. He couldn’t focus on every aspect of his organization, he focused on a 25 man roster at the expense of the future and now for the last 3 years the Mets have been in a constant state of “average at best.”

          His ideas could have brought a WS Title here, but they didn’t. What they did was cause the organization to have to find a shovel and start digging out of the giant hole he created.

          When you “go for it” and don’t come close to winning it all, you failed. I can’t even get how you think otherwise.
          • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 11:31 pm

            Jessep now now, don’t act like a phony, my friend. Hiding behind lines and angles isn’t going to work. You wish he had failed. Common sense dictates Omar was anything BUT a failure. Mixing in politics with a silly decision made by the Wilpons made Alderson the GM. And I have been watching some of your articles. The one I was shocked at was a piece you wrote about Jose Reyes and how we should start over by getting rid of him. I think you’re a two-faced individual when it comes to being a writer on this forum. I want some of you Omar haters to take a peek at every GM since 1981. Check to see how much the Mets were spending. Where they ended up in regard to payroll. Check their overall record. And then compare it to Omar’s reign here.

            As I said previously, Omar was let go because of politics. The Wilpons are running a scam on you people. I wonder if fans are wise enough to see through it. Judging by the way you all attack one of the most successful GMs the Mets have ever had, I am beginning to wonder if Donal isn’t alone when it comes to being a little mentally challenged. Either that, or some of you guys have some very serious anti-social tendancies.

            If the Wilpons enforce the same plan they enforced with Doubleday around, they will save 30+ million this year and probably for the next few years by NOT spending money on free agents. Here’s the cute part. Are the Wilpons going to let the Mets fall into the toilet? Does he think he can go cheap because he knows the kids in the system are legit? If he does, you guys are going to feel awfully silly trying to proclaim Alderson as some hero GM. It’s not going to happen. Omar’s kids are the ones who will remain. Those are the guys who will have the weight dropped on their shoulders.
            • Pete August 6, 2011 at 8:54 am

              Omar you have no credibility in anything you say. You are a shill for Omar Minaya. The things you claim he did for this team are delusional. You are probably one of his relatives, and no one here can take you at all seriously.
            • jessep August 6, 2011 at 8:31 am

              What is the job of a General Manager in Major League Baseball? Specifically what is the job of the GM with over $100mil to spend on his team EVERY YEAR?

              If you try, even try to tell me that his #1 job is NOT to make the playoffs then you’re either a fool, liar, or Omar’s family member or all 3.
  • Mr North Jersey August 5, 2011 at 5:37 pm

    A lot of passionate debate the last 2 days over this. Some good observations made both pro and con.

    Here is my take.

    Minaya had 6 years as GM of the NY Mets. In those 6 years they reached the postseason once. They suffered what some describe as the biggest choke job in MLB history under his watch in 2007.

    Under his watch the Mets according to USAToday had the highest payroll in the NL every year except in 2010 where they dropped to 3rd highest in the NL.

    2005
    New York Mets $101,305,821
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2005

    2006
    New York Mets $101,084,963
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2006

    2007
    New York Mets $115,231,663
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2007

    2008
    New York Mets $137,793,376
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2008

    2009
    New York Mets $149,373,987
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2009

    2010
    New York Mets $134,422,942
    content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/baseball/mlb/salaries/team/2010

    You want to say the farm is better today than when he got here? I agree but the results of how much better is yet to be determined. Since becoming GM of the Mets what is the “best” season a player that he has he produced from the farm or say International free agency has had?

    Mike Pelfrey’s 2010 season?
    Jonathon Niese’s or Dillon Gee’s 2011 season?
    Ike Davis’s 2010 season?
    Daniel Murphy’s 2011 season?

    All of the above? OK let’s say all of the above combined. All these are coming now 6 and 7 years since he took over and that is reasonable cause it takes about that long to develop a young kid coming through the system. The best thing I can say about most of them is they show potential to be good cause they have just 1 season under their belts for the most part so far outside of Pelfrey and Murphy of course.

    You want to say the players with the most upside have yet to make it to the Bigs? I agree again and as soon as they make it and start fulfilling on that potential I will remember to say that is a great Minaya draft pick.

    I read someone say once that Baseball is about winning and going to the postseason and for four straight years Omar Minaya has failed while being paid handsomely.

    It’s hard to argue that he succeeded at getting the Mets into the postseason the last 4 years when he didn’t. All the while having the highest payroll in the NL for every year he was the GM except his last.

    I liked Minaya I wished nothing more than for him to succeed and by succeed I mean winning a W.S. or at worse building a team that got to the playoffs more than once in 6 years.

    I agreed with the decision that he needed to step down and now I look forward to seeing if the new GM can succeed. I understand you and many don’t agree but that just means that we must agree to disagree.
• Sach August 5, 2011 at 7:11 pm

  IMO, Omar Minaya, Tony Bernazard and Rudy Terasses were 3 incompetents that were in over their heads in their respective positions. Omar has said himself he didn’t like sitting in an office and doing administration duties which is a huge part of being a MLB GM. Was overmatched in negotiating with greedy player agents- IMO, he was a poor contract negotiator. Didnot speak or convey well to the media.Too many bad contracts to either decline phase FA or questionable players. Too wed to the crapshoot IFA and 1 dimensional bats who really don’t project well to the bigs. As for Tony Bernazard, his right hand man he was a total incompetent and ultimately, a disgrace to the Met organization. As for Terasses, too obsessed with drafting the tall pitcher high in the draft that throws or threw his fastball on a downhill plane- Mulvey, Holdzkom,Holt,Hedrick,Kunz,Vineyard,Carson,Moviel,Rustich,Clyne,Harvey all of which only Harvey is gonna work out in the pros.
  • OmarFan August 5, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    One could only PRAY Alderson is AS incompetent in his first 4 years as Met GM. Omar’s administrative duties are to be delegated to his assistants. His job is negotiating with agents and fellow GMs when it comes to making trades. Omar never was taken in any major trade. I certainly hope this message board is over the Heath Bell trade. That’s the only trade where anyone can point at the Mets “losing” and what not. Omar won out on trades a vast majority of the time. He also pulled a major heist for Delgado and Santana. Of course, these trades are never mentioned by Omar haters. I find it very interesting.
• Des August 5, 2011 at 11:37 pm

  Jessep, you make many good points. But national politics don’t prove your point. It makes for an unfocused article. Trust me, many of us are ambivalent about the mixture of sports with politics, especially on a day when S&P has downgraded American debt.
• Metsie August 6, 2011 at 12:58 am

  FACT: Omar Minaya was hired as GM in 2005.
  FACT: There was only TWO drafts he had to fill the Minors with between 2005 and 2006!
  FACT: We went from 71 Wins in 2004 (pre Minaya) to 83 Wins and were in the Playoff hunt until the last week of the 2005 Season.
  FACT: We made it TO the Post Season the following year!
  FACT: He was the guy who gave the Go Ahread to sign Reyes!
  FACT: It was Minaya that hired Terry Collins and brought him here NOT ALDERSON! He also hired Oberkfel (Coach) Chip Hale (Coach) Backman (Mil Manager) and just about everyone else you think is doing a good job in our organization. The only OUTSIDE guys in the FO are Alderson Podesta and Riciardi!
  FACT: Sandy has had AS MANY injuries this season as Omar had in any season. Lucky for him Omar HAD that MiL you say he didn’t build to rely on!

  BOGUS: Minaya is at fault for all those Injuries from 2007-NOW

  BOGUS: Minaya didn’t Build the Minors up to make up enough to make up for injuries (With TWO drafts to work with?) Is Sandy going to have that all sorted out by next year? Careful because if you feel Omar is at fault here then you open the door for all the Sandy haters to throw it in your face and you will be confronted trying to dispute your own words and “FACTS”! If Minaya can be at fault so too can Alderson!

  BOGUS: Minaya left the Minors a shambles. No They are the guys making Sandy look good right now as they are making up for all the injuries that Sandy has had to endure in the same way Omar had to endure. But Omar didn’t trade away his best hitter in the middle of it to get some pitcher who is supposed to be an ACE with a 3+ERA in HIGH A ball!

  BOGUS: Minaya was all about spending big money. Oh really? Valentin, Julio Franco Endy Chavez, Bradford, Jorge Julio, Duaner Sanchez, Paul LoDuca

  Stop looking for reasons to BLAME Minaya for 2007-2010. Injuries were NOT his fault. The Lack of Minors was there before he even got here and the first draft he made netted Pelfrey who had already made the team by 2007! Rather impressive that a Kid made it to the Majors in two years…Since then Niese, Davis, Thole, Murphy, Duda and Turner were also brought in and/or drafted by Omar!

  There has been a lot of debate this week but NONE of it is based on Reality just revisionist history in an attempt to SELL a philosophy that has NEVER WORKED in the MLB and trying to put a sour taste in everyone’s mouth regarding the past in order to get us to swallow the bad tasting crap they are selling which is basically GET RID OF EVERYONE, SELL THEM ALL FOR KIDS! Make a great Minor league system and the Majors be damned! See you in 5 years when we will be the Phillies or Braves…Yeah Right!

  And lucky for them if they manage to make the sale there won’t be anyone around who are still met fans and the few who are will be so lost in drink that they probably will not remember just how bad that philosophy was they bought and who suggested it because it will be 5 years ago that the fraud was perpetrated on us!

  No Thanks folks…The time to build up the Major Leagues is NOW! Omar showed it doesn’t NEED to be a high priced FA but it can;t be done just by drafting. Oakland didn’t do it despite the Tolkienesque literary feat called MONEYBALL!

  The team is not broke, The team is is short very few positions towards competing, the Minors seems to be chock full of talent that is poised to be part of the MLB squad and it had nothing to do with Sandy’s brilliance and everything to do with what Minaya Built! Right down to the coaching!

  You can keep spinning all you want but usually when you SPIN all you really accomplish is staying in the same place and looking dizzy!
  Which is what will happen if your philosophy is put into place!

  Took the Phillies and Braves 10 years of losing to aquire the players they used as their core.
  More than half of our core (and MORE than they ever had to start with) is already on this team!

  I know many of you were hoping the Sky would fall so that the guy who invented Moneyball could get another shot at proving out the book you love because the failure of the Oakland A’s to compete any better than a week more than Omar did just wasn’t selling anymore…

  But the facts on the ground say otherwise!
  We have the potential for have an ENTIRE INFIELD of homegrown core.
  We have the potential for an ETIRE Rotation to be home grown in a year’s time (Niese, Gee, Pelfrey (all three already here) with Harvey and Holton the way and Wheeler if he does manage to live up to your hype soon to follow them!

  Within two years and two or three good signings this team is not only playing for the Wildcard it’s playing for the Division!

  So lets stop trying to take this team backwards!
  And doing it at the expense of Omar for the reason of promoting something you read in a book!

  Tell me this…RedSox used the book Yankees do not…who has dominated who the last decade?
  Sure wasnt the READER!
  • t agee August 6, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    Just because we have some homegrown players on the team doesn’t mean that we have a great or even good farm system. It all has to be taken in context. Not all homegrown catchers are the same. Would Thole make anyone’s 25 man roster? Murphy?, Turner?, Duda? Evans? Depends on the composition of other teams rosters really. Internal options, needing a hold the fort guy, carrying a no hit/good glove or a stick/no glove, need a RH platoon at 1B, 3rd catcher ect but ALL these guys?

    That’s more like an indictment of the farm system right there.

    The catcher spent 2 years playing 1B in the minors. The first basemen spent 90% of his minor league career playing 3rd. The RFer spent most of his minor league career playing 1B. Evans did the same.

    As useful as some of these guys are their really not as useful to us because we have a young good looking all around first basemen and an aging in decline expensive LFer for another two years and still need to find a catcher who can actually catch.

    Face it. The players that have the physical ability to play well on BOTH sides of the ball are primarily found in the first couple of rounds of the draft or internationally. We keep forking over draft picks to sign aging in decline players for LF and the only drafted position player we’ve developed in seven years plays 1B.

    What are we going to do with all these guys?

    As if that’s not enough we actually traded away two high draft choices to secure yet another 1B/LF/DH in Chris Carter.

    Very very weird idea on how to build a baseball team and the funniest part of it all is that out of Murphy, Carter, Evans, Thole and Duda, only the guy who didn’t play 1B in the minors can actually play it at a somewhat decent level.

    Very strange.
• OmarFan August 6, 2011 at 9:52 am

  I am not defending Juan Gonzalez, am I? Unlike some people, I am not in the business of gossip. I am defending players THAT NEVER TESTED POSITIVE. There’s a difference between being knowledgeable and being someone who believes any piece of fluff the media prints. Once again, show me the proof where Pudge and Sosa tested positive. If you can’t, and you won’t, you shouldn’t implicate those who were accused via someone selling a book. Isn’t proof what you and others on this site look for? Wouldn’t that make your stance a hypocritical one? One based on agendas? Careful who you point fingers at because if you point a finger you always have three pointing back.

  One other thing, what does Sosa’s ability to speak English matter here? If you think Sosa can speak English well enough to speak to CONGRESS, you have problems. Sosa can talk to the average media member in his broken English and it won’t matter. Speaking broken English to members of Government, with a chance to be misinterpreted, is call for an interpreter. Sosa did the right thing protecting himself because English is his second language as far as many with common sense are concerned. As for Sosa’s career, Sosa’s biggest numbers were created during his prime time years of his career (ages 28-32). His career went south, like most athletes not named Barry Bonds, did as he entered his mid 30′s. That’s an athlete’s natural progression. His homerun totals kind of mirror what Baustista is doing at the moment, except Baustista was never a prospect along the line of Sammy Sosa. Here’s a little tidbit for you. Texas got rid of Sosa because they wanted him to stop weightlifting. Sosa was always lifting weights, which was frowned upon in the 80′s. They thought it hampered his flexibility as a teenager.

  And you’re doing a little bit of lying, I presume. There are NO REPORTS that state Sosa used steroids. And where is this admission that Sosa lied? And lied about what exactly? That he didn’t couldn’t speak English. That he took steroids? What did he admit to lying about, sir? Please show us where Sosa admitted he’s lying.

  As for any agendas, this isn’t about Omar now. This is about you smearing guys Omar found as a way to defend Alderson. All I stated were facts about PROVEN steroid users. Who has the agenda now?
  • jessep August 6, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    “One other thing, what does Sosa’s ability to speak English matter here? If you think Sosa can speak English well enough to speak to CONGRESS, you have problems”

    I’ll bet anything, ANYTHING that people who speak as well as this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs95NnrCD0o (Safe link, interview with Sosa) could answer questions about whether he did or did not take steroids.

    Plus, he’s allowed to have a lawyer. He used his language “barrier” as a cop out.

    There were no reports that Sosa ever tested positive?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/sports/baseball/17doping.html

    NY Times isn’t always right but I’ll take their reporting over OmarFan who is just saying he didn’t take roids so it makes Omar Minaya look better.

    Give me a break OmarFan. Seriously, your credibility is shot. Sammy Sosa didn’t take steroids. Right and two years ago before McGwire admitted it, he didn’t take them either right? Many nobody took them? Maybe only the people on the Mitchell Report and those who admitted it after they got caught took them? Heck, maybe Roger Clemens didn’t take them either!
    • OmarFan August 6, 2011 at 7:24 pm

      Once again, Jessep, that article is from an ANONYMOUS source. You really should learn what FACTS are and what GOSSIP is. The same GOSSIP you guys swallowed with the JJ Putz physical for bone spurs you guys insist Omar didn’t have performed himself on the man..lol. Please stick to facts, Jessup. It seems that your agenda lacks them. When Sosa tests positive and ADMITS to it, like Juan Gonzalez and dozens of other players did, then we can all point the finger at Sosa. Until then, you need to stop making yourself seem as if we’re attacking you when in reality all you’re doing is attacking those who don’t follow your lead on this site.
• Luis Montoya August 6, 2011 at 10:13 am

  What was the point of this post? We didnt have enough of these types of posts back in October, November and December? A complete waste of time.
• Joe Spector August 6, 2011 at 10:43 am

  Very nice post. Damn you Branda, I agree with you!
  • jessep August 6, 2011 at 11:00 am

    I believe R.E.M wrote a song that sums this up?

    It’s the end of the world as we know it!