8
2011
One Way Or Another: Part Two
An article by 
Blogger’s note: I wrote Part One of this piece in January, but it was very hard for me to write Part Two, though I knew the direction I had wanted to take. Yet, I wasn’t able to support my own argument, so I kept in my back pocket. Now, I am able to believe in the mission statement of this piece. Thanks for listening. ~Coop
Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was a major league baseball team with a lot of backloaded and horrific contracts, but had two young and emerging stars on the left side of the infield. One was the scrappy and perceived to be immature dude, the other was a guy who wanted to make everyone like him and put pressure on himself to be better. Fans in this town saw the debate as an “either or” situation, meaning, you had to take one or the other in an argument. And most of them did…they’d take the third baseman in most arguments. He had a higher ceiling, and the other guy wouldn’t amount to much with his perceived limitations.
Sound familiar? It should: I’m giving the background to how the Philadelphia Phillies were perceived around the league and within their own fanbase in the early 2000s. The third baseman and shortstop I refer to, of course, are Scotty Rolen and Jimmy Rollins.
But let’s think back to that time period when the Phillies would come to visit Shea Stadium. Their “idea” of superstar were those two or Jim Thome and Bobby Abreu. Most of their contracts were complete disasters, and had (and still have) some of the most fickle fans in the history of sports. But some fans were left either shrugging when Scotty Rolen demanded a trade – basically saying that the management was not serious about putting together a championship team, and forced a trade. Some of the fans may have even agreed with Rolen’s assessment, but when he became a “wing man” for the best hitter in baseball, Albert Pujols, the pressure was off…heck, he even won a championship.
But how did that work out for the Phillies? That immature shortstop who had perceived limitations, Jimmy Rollins, declared their team was the one “to beat” and went on to win an MVP award for having a big mouth and backing it up with his bat. Once out of the shadow of the third baseman, Jimmy Rollins came into his own. And of course, with a better vision, the Phillies were able to build a team from within with sickening and enviable talent emerging such as Ryan Howard, Chase Utley and Cole Hamels, to name a few. Using their other chips such as Kyle Drabek to orchestrate a trade for the likes of Roy Halladay, and actually “lowballing” (for lack of a better term) the prized jewel of the free agent market prior to the 2011 season, Cliff Lee, in return for the chances of winning a championship and putting him in a better position to win games.
All in the course of less than a decade. Oh, and I hate the Phillies. Just throwing that one out there.
But it brings us to a similar question, about our left side of the infield. For years and years, we’ve seen the rising and maturing of our own homegrown superstars, David Wright and Jose Reyes. Up until last year even, you never met two players who brought fans together to root for the team more, or caused more of a rift among the fan base. You can probably ask five different fans what their opinion of Wright is, and you’ll get five different answers – yet most will agree he strikes out too much, and tries to do TOO much. Yet, marketed as the “face of the franchise,” he’s up to his ears in charity work, and tries too hard to say and do the right thing at all times, and to his detriment and the team’s, on the field as well.
Then there’s Jose Reyes. It’s funny to me to see how the tide has turned with feelings on him. Last year, I remember people suggesting to “listen” to trades or to all-out trade Reyes, because he was immature and injury-prone and his antics (such as dancing, smiling, orchestrating handshakes with his teammates) weren’t much welcome in baseball today. In the clean-cut and milquetoast era with Derek Jeter leading the way, it’s no wonder that the antithesis of Jeter on that “other” New York team would cause such strong feelings.
Until you know, he started doing well. Until you know, suddenly we were all reminded of why we all thought so highly of him and wanted him to be a Mets lifer. Until you know, we saw that other teams wanted our guy. Well, no way, as they say, Jose…is ours!!
I have to admit that I am one of those folks who thinks in terms of “either or” with the left side of the Mets infield. I don’t know why – I mean, in a large market, for two guys of their caliber there is no reason why the Mets should not and could not hold onto both of them.
Until reality hits and I see that I am holding on to an idea that may have passed.
See, my friend Matty Faz over at Kiner’s Korner had a term for the years of Reyes and Wright together, and called it the “Fake Empire.” It makes me see a few things. One is that we haven’t won a darn thing with those two at the helm, why are we clinging on to them both? The other is the response to that question: it means that the Mets are serious about rebuilding if one or both is let go. It also means a part of our youth of is gone.
Since David Wright is out with a back injury, it goes without saying that to trade him at this juncture would be not only a mistake, but it would be an impossibility too. But it’s not an unfair question to pose about the future with the combo of Wright and Reyes. Of course, Reyes tweaks his hamstring again and is currently sitting on the DL, bringing pause to whole Keep Reyes campaign…well, let me take that back. It’s bringing pause to me to think about a piece I had worked on a few months ago, said I was working on a Part Two…but couldn’t bring myself to post it.
Frankly because I didn’t believe in what I was saying fully. I couldn’t put out an argument that I wasn’t in full support of one way or another.
But now I do. I am saying that when Wright returns, it would not be a bad thing to entertain the idea of the Mets moving on without him in the future plans. The shortstop position is tougher to fill. We’d also have to replace a leadoff hitter in Reyes, and a different type of baseball player. Someone who is built to play in CitiField, one of the Dimensional Players I have discussed in the past.
David Wright, to me, is not one of those “Dimensional Players,” and his greatest assets shine when he’s serving as a wingman like Rolen. No matter how much we want him to be the “leader” of the team, the “face” of the franchise, right now without him, the team has performed at a consistent level and what’s more? The Mets’ marketing geniuses are forced to use images of Jose Reyes and even Carlos Beltran to draw in fans. And you know what? We’re buying those images hook, line and sinker.
One Way or Another…Jose Reyes needs to stay on this team, as a healthy and performing Reyes is exactly what this team needs to be successful. We’ve seen just how poorly the team executes when he’s not well (and what the team has done in his absence isn’t a vote against him, but rather a way to see that the team believes they can win by invoking the values of Reyes – the Claw!). David Wright is a wingman, and while that may be good for another team, the fact is, it takes away from the New York Mets and it’s may be tougher short-and long-term to find appropriate players to build around a guy who needs a better supporting cast.
Ideally, as a large market we should be able to keep both but let’s face it: when both of them are performing, they haven’t won anything. It’s not a matter of money anymore. It’s a matter of performance. Sometimes the chance you don’t take is the one you regret. Look at the Phillies: they took a chance, and they are showing no signs of slowing down in the near future.
It’s time to cut the cord. One way or another, we should be thinking about life without David Wright and a future with Jose Reyes being the leader of the team.
About the Author: Taryn Cooper
48 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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It’s time to cut the cord. One way or another, we should be thinking about life without David Wright and a future with Jose Reyes being the leader of the team.”
coop, Alex68 approves this msg, i hope you are ready for the backlash for david’s legion of fans who see no wrong with him..
Thanks Alex, I’m giving myself backlash for you agreeing with me. LOL j/k
Bottom line is this: David Wright does not hit in the clutch. If he did, we wouldn’t be debating who is more important to the Mets or who they could better do without. David is a compiler, and never drives in a big run. So who needs him anyway?
lmao, pete, you are setting yourself up for a big debate (more like lynching) from david’s fans here.. you’re right, but you and coop better be ready, ppl didn’t want me here because i started saying in 2009 how UNCLUTCH he was
Please note this is also not a knock on perceived “unclutchness” for David Wright. This is more of a note that he does put pressure on himself when he’s seen as the go-to bat in the lineup. If he is the wingman on a team he can perform at a higher level. Furthermore, there is a lot of pressure that he not only puts on himself but that the fans do as well. He hasn’t been the same since CitiField came into existence. Save taking in the walls at Citi, David Wright is not a dimensional player for CitiField. Jose Reyes is. This is supposed to be more of a cold analysis and not being emotionally attached to either player.
fair enough, i see what you’re getting at, either way you have a point, unless he goes back to being the line drive hitter he was before he’s not a good fit for this team, i mean, look at even beltran, he’s got more power than wright but he’s a line drive hitter, he adjusted to citi and didn’t let citi adjust to him, therefore he leads the NL in doubles, same with reyes. wright became an upper cut type player, and strikeouts went up, BA avg went down. and regarding the pressure he put on himself, if he wouldn’t bot start taking about leader or leadership with this team, maybe fans or the media woudln’t have proclaim him that, you lead by example, not with words, beltran is a leaader by example, not words, therefore he lets his bat do the talking, wright is the ultimate complementary player. a stat padder who benefitted from having delgado, beltran and reyes in the lineup, once they weren’t there he became polanco the white version..
Right, it’s the chicken or the egg really. Will David Wright do better in a park that he plays 81 games at where the dimensions are more suited to his style of hitting, or will he adjust if there are players surrounding him at CitiField that are suited to hitting there? It’s hard to tell. What I wanted to do was call into question our own feelings towards these two players — we want to win a championship as a fan base, yet these two haven’t won a darn thing. With the new stadium, Jose Reyes is more suited to its quirks, whereas DW is still adjusting not to mention having to shoulder the burden of losing key players to injury. That said, if we want to win, it may not be a bad thing to think outside of the box and look at the valuable assets we do have especially in DW. It would be sad to see him go but it could be an option in the future.
well said coop, god, how come there aren’t more understandable ppl like you here, others NEVER wanna be wrong or criticize on their articles, they always right and no matter what you wrong. is good to have an opinion and not being reply back how “i’m more educated than you” or “i will get you banned threats”..
I can understand your point if the financial means of the team continue to plumit. That being said I “believe” that the emergance of Davis might be what keeps Wright in orange and blue. I just don’t subscribe to the either or hypothesis. Now when contract negotiations take place for Wright I might change my mind. I do agree with Fred in that Wright is not a superstar player. He is very good at what he does but that is not worth Pujols money. This situation is not upon us yet so I will reserve judgment. The Reyes situation is emminent and is fairly obvious he is and will be a superstar short stop for another 5 years (as long as health holds up.) I believe signing him is an important step to the Mets success. I would not agree with offering him anything over 6 years 120 with a health option for a 7th. I hope this can get it done. This is an important juncture for this team and I am more than happy that Sandy is at the healm.
Hey Nathan, thanks for your response. I am not thinking of financial implications but rather long-term Mets team growth implications. David Wright without protection is a very good player, but he’s not a superstar. He needs to be a wingman, if you think about it when Carlos Delgado was on the team and Carlos Beltran was taking pressure off, he was awesome which is what I think most people are clinging to. Please bear in mind I did not conduct this summary with a financial aspect because I even said that this is a large market team and they should be able to afford and therefore money is a non-entity. This is mostly for us to deal with an emotional attachment and emotional break from the two guys we’ve been marketed to as “futures” or the faces of the franchise. It’s been evident without Wright around too that Reyes was off the hook and more himself.
I see your point on ignoring the financial aspect and focusing on performance. That being said I do not see a reason to let Wright go if performance is the key. As Davis continues to develop or another player is brought in or grown into a true long ball threat David will take the wingman position. Then the team will be better balanced. I hate strikeouts I mean hate so it is strange that I find Wright as valuable as I do, that being said David is a fine #5 hitter he has proven this time and again and his struggles have all occured when the expectations have gone beyond this so the more apt point is for the fans to be more realistic in their expectations of Wright. I do not believe that Sandy will let sentiment or pressure keep him from making this a reality. Right now Bay is or at least should be the #5 hitter but that is only through next year and after that David should be able to take his proper place in the lineup. Wright can continue to be the face of the franchise even with others outperforming him just as Jeter has done with the Yanks. I see this as a best of both worlds. I try to be more of a realist when it comes to baseball and to be honest I have not suffeciantly looked into Davids hitting to see if he is going to drop way off or not. There has been enough sluggers who have washed away to be able and see the trend but it does tend to follow a strike out pattern. This is hard to pick up as you have to actually plot the individual pitchers that he has faced to accomplish this but it can be done. With Sandy’s past and his staff I believe they are aware of these trends and will factor them in when discussing who to keep or shed.
You may have a good point, but unfortunately it will remain to be seen at least in the short term since it looks like we’ve lost Ike for the season, but then again Wright hasn’t been in a line up in over two seasons with a healthy Carlos Beltran and a jason Bay who remembers how to hit. If moving him down the order is good for his production and also gives him adequate protection, then perhaps we can see that David Wright of old.
I believe so. Back when Delgado was fourth and Beltran was 3rd and Cliffy was 5th David had one of his better season at 6th then when he moved up to 5th he performed even better. I know lineup placment has no dicernable effect on performance but it does cause an affect in the player. I do not see Wright’s problem as an actual problem I see it as the team needs to put him in a better position to succeed. Wright is not a true mental case (see Pelfrey.) His skill set is just not what the team has been in dire need of the past two years. This is not his fault it is the reactive Minaya administrations fault. I believe that a core of Reyes Davis and Wright can be a substantial lineup as long as they add a prototypical #3 hitter. There is a remote possibility that Murphy might grow into this role but without him having a proper defensive role I doubt this very much. Coming back to the financial problem I do not see a the Mets paying Wright Tex money to bat fifth strikeout 150 times a year and hit 30 dingers. I think that would be a waste of resources and in that vain I agree that he will eventually be off the team.
I think you are absolutely correct that the DW issue is two fold, it’s how the team needs to put him in a better position to succeed, and the FO hasn’t done a good job in building around that. i agree 100% with that!
Protection does not have an affect on the batter. But it does affect the pitcher!
If there is a good hitter behind Wright then the pitcher can’t just pitch around him due to the fact he is going to face another tough batter with Wright on base.
So he has to pick his poison and pitch to one of them and Wright sees better pitches to hit.
But it doesn’t change what Wright does or how well he hits. Just gives him a better opportunity to hit something because it will be presented to him by the pitcher!
Metsie, there’s reverse logic to that, as well. In your example of Wright hitting in front of a good hitter, it can be argued that Wright would see better pitches to hit. But on the contrary, wouldn’t it stand to reason that the pitcher would really bear down and attack Wright in order to not have to face the next guy? Or face him without Wright being on base? Bring his A-game, as it were.
The idea that a guy getting “protected” in a lineup seems like the reverse idea is just as viable. I find it hard to believe that the pitcher would groove fastballs to Wright just so he doesn’t walk him in front of the next guy. I find it much easier to believe he’d try his damnedest to get Wright out!
Well define bear down and attack a batter?
Do you do it by throwing balls and walking him or throwing strikes that he can hit?
In both cases it is the pitcher that makes the decision. But either way he goes (based on who is after him) it is better for Wright.
Either he gets a walk presented because the pitcher fears him or he bears down and throws strikes that david has a chance to do what he does with the bat because the strikes are being presented.
But what you say is MORE likely if there is a weaker batters around him.
If Wright is the only dangerous batter in the lineup it is far easier to bear down on him and save your best pitches against him because you don’t need that type of concentration on the rest of the lineup.
Since the other guys don’t hit you can challenge Wright due to the fact he still has to hit it out to hurt you. This is predicated on the fact that the other guys don’t hit enough to drive him in.
Protection doesn’t really dictate WHAT the pitcher will do, it will always be the decision of the pitcher. But that decision will be influenced by what is hitting around the batter as well as the batter himself.
2009 is a classic case of Wright being the only dangerous guy and therefore they could afford to pitch around him because no one wuld drive him in.
And when there was no one on base ahead of him (I believe protection works BEFORE and after BTW) you can bear down and pitch to him because at best your only going to give up one run.
So it works both ways, and who is in front is almost as important as who is behind you.
If the guys ahead of wright get on then you also have to bear down and pitch to him because there is no room to put him.
So protection is not just what is after you but what is before you in the lineup if you ask me.
“Do you do it by throwing balls and walking him or throwing strikes that he can hit?”
What about strikes he can’t hit? What about those pitches that are on the black, or the 12-6 curve, or the slider that starts out at your knees and ends up in the other batter’s box?
That’s what it means to bear down.
How many times in a row can a Pitcher throw a strike the batter can not hit?
If it is in the strikezone it IS hittable, maybe not that particular batter but it is in an area where the bat can hit it.
And this is where the fighting off pitches with Two Strikes I wrote about recently addresses.
If the pitch is not hittable but close enough to call then you must try and foul that pitch off and make sure you do precisely because that number I asked you about (how many times in a row) can that pitcher make such a fine pitch?
If the Pitcher is throwing strikes then you have the opportunity to control it by wasting that pitch and extend the at bat.
Just as the Pitcher bears down on the Batter, the Batter must “BEAR DOWN” with two strikes and be prepared to foul off unhittable pitches close enough to call until the Pitcher either makes a mistake by trying to be too fine or he gives in and walks you.
Point I forgot to add…
If it’s strike it is hittable. it’s just that it could fool you into missing. Which is why you look for your pitch but your prepared to protect the plate until you actually get it.
Don’t assume what he’s going to throw just be prepared for anything.
You’re straying. Stay on point. We were talking about lineup protection and you went off on a 2-strike hitting tangent.
Point is, protection works both ways. Maybe it gives a guy easier pitches to hit, but maybe it makes the pitcher work HARDER on him for the very same reason people think he’d see good pitches. I’d like to see a study.
Maybe a part of Wright’s struggles in the third spot is because pitchers worked so much harder on him than they did when he hit 5th, knowing that maybe letting him reach base wasn’t that big a deal with Xavier Nady hitting behind him. Wright surely has his issues, but maybe the pitchers didn’t want him on base for Beltran and worked extra hard to keep him off.
But making a pitcher work harder is an advantage to the batter no?
How long can he keep that up?
Working harder does not make the pitch less hittable just more precisely placed.
But if there is no one on base and no decent hitter after him there is no reason to pitch any better to a #3 hitter than a #5 hitter.
Being in the third hole only is better in that the leadoff guys (who you assume can get on) got on!
Then there is no room.
But is it any different of a situation when the #3 and 4 hitters are on base when your in the #5 hole?
Position is meaningless without taking into account what is behind him.
So position itself does not get harder or easier depending on your order only the players in that order.
What is much more likely is a Pitcher will not want to walk and while he works harder to throw a strike that can’t be hit it is much harder to do that because it requires the the repeated physical execution. Foul him off when he does that and at some point he won’t execute!
maybe you didn’t understand me when I said affect. Being third or fourth in a ineup adds pressure to the batter to perform due to increased RBI opertunities. Wright always seemed more comfortable behind the major guys. There is no real difference between batting 8th or 3rd but the players themselves have emotional responses to these places in the order. Some guys do not seem affected by this but I believe that Wright has proven that it does have an affect on him and therefore has an effect on his performance.
fragile mind maybe?? not tough enough to handle pressure? yeah, is called being not a leader or a choker, a known choker…
No Nathan Only the player puts the pressure on him. It is a psycological manifestation of situation. Self inflicted on himself. He shouldn’t think he has more pressure he actually has less batting third than 5th.
He has two big bats (supposedly behind him)
He doesn’t need to clear the bases all he needs to do is hit for average.
Great post Coop! I see you put a lot of thought into your reasoning and while I don’t necessarily agree with many aspects I can see why you feel the way you do.
Unlike you I don’t see myself as a either or person regarding Wright & Reyes and I guess that may be why I don’t see the need to move on with either of them.
I have rarely in my life been able to say “look at our home grown All-Stars” and don’t know how many more times I will be able to say those words so I’d like to enjoy the ones we have as much as possible.
I do agree though that if moving Wright or Reyes is what is needed to put the Mets in a better position to possibly win a W.S. I am all for it and have no reservations seeing either player moved. I just would like I guess to have my cake and eat it too if possible by trying to win a W.S. with “our home grown All-Stars” if possible.
As far as Wright and the leader not leader scenario as a fan I have always felt Wright is a team 1st guy and as far as I can tell he has tried to conduct himself with the best interests of the team. Now that doesn’t mean he is a leader but that is something the guys in that clubhouse can decide.
Wright has his shortfalls no doubt about it but even with all that he is in my opinion among the better 3rd baseman in MLB over the last 5 years coming into 2011 season and him along with Reyes being “our only home grown All-Stars” at this time I’d like to see them win together if possible. Though it seems like that may in the end not be a possibility.
Anyway great post and keep em coming.
Right, Mr NJ? I mean, one of the best 3B in baseball, that’s a good problem to have right? LOL I know lots of folks won’t agree with this and that’s fine, what I like are comments like yours that aren’t attack-worthy but give an informed opinion. Moving right along, it seems like there are scenarios that David Wright can excel at and it could be that CitiField just isn’t for a player like him anymore. That’s not a bad thing, it just could be bad for David Wright. But you are right – I always feel like DW always does the right thing (no pun intended) as far as the team goes, but perhaps a bit of that pressure of being the “team first” guy is getting to him, while it seems like Reyes is taking to it like a fish to water without the pressure of the milquetoast guy. Wright does everything and more that’s expected of him as a spokesperson for the franchise.
“It makes me see a few things. One is that we haven’t won a darn thing with those two at the helm, why are we clinging on to them both? ”
Are you seeing or merely imagining?
Now I am going to adapt your story so that the logic of this statement is exposed.
You go for a long drive to your vacation home upsate NY.
Every time you make this trip the tires on the right side of the car blow out ending your trip.
You then say we have never gotten to where we want to go with those left side tires so get rid of the two tires on the left side, and keep the stuff that has not gotten the job done instead!
Does this make sense?
Would Mr Spock (he of the ears not the babies) approve this logic?
It is called throwing out the baby with the bath water!
And to suggest we never won with them is false. 2006, 2007 and 2008 does not happen without Wright and Reyes. Just because they themselves were not enough to win the WS does not mean they are the problem, just means they are not exactly the solution.
Yes change is needed but not change for the sake of change but change that actually improves the situation so that you do not need to rely on just two players to win games.
If you find a better 3B than Wright then it’s ok to trade him. Maybe Murphy takes his spot.
If you find a better SS than reyes too (good luck with that!) then he too is tradeable.
But there are so many other places that are not doing HALF of what either of those do for us who should be considered as replaceable before either Wright or Reyes.
And mostly in the Rotation!
2006-2008 were all about lack of said pitching!
2009-2010 was all about injury!
The Threee collapses and two never roses was not due to Wright or Reyes but due to lack of enough around them to make their contribution count.
And no team has ever gotten better by replacing thier two best players and keeping the guys who couldn’t win when they HAD those players!
It just flies in the face of logic!
It’s replacing good tires instead of bad and blaming the good tires for not doing enough to keep the bad tires good!
Metsie I agree with part of your statement. I do not believe that trading a valuable piece for no dicernable reason is foolish but there have been numerous franchises that have traded their best in an effort to rebuild the franchise. This formula has worked in the past. My only problem with this is that as a NY team the Mets should not have this woory about. I agree again that if there are no better options available than why trade a valuable player. I do not see this issue as clear cut though. I can see value in trading Wright for the correct pieces.
I actually agree with your statement Nathan. Trading Wright or Reyes for no good reason is foolish. But what if it IS a good reason? If David Wright doesn’t adjust to CitiField, who’s to say he ever will? We’ve been building around these two for several years and it’s not working. Perhaps a clean break would do good for us all.
You seem to think David has had a problem with Citi Field….Why?
Other than 2009 where just about anyone who COULD hit was hurt and Wright was pretty much by himself, What is the proof that David is not doing well there?
Because he doesn’t hit HRs like Prince Fielder? He didn’t do that at Shea either?
Wright’s numbers suggest there really was not much of a change, certainly not from anything to do with fences!
2005 27 Hrs
2006 26 Hrs
2007 30 Hrs
2008 33 Hrs
2009 (as mentioned above) 10 Hrs
2010 29 Hrs
2011 he had 6 before he got hurt.
2010 says his HR production has not dropped off at all due to playing in Citi Field.
Yet you folks keep saying Citi field is killing his HR numbers!
His imagined potential numbers or his real ones pray tell?
Yes he strikes out more at Citifield.
I wonder how much of that is because we all complain about his HR numbers not being better than his usual and he is trying to shut us all up?
It’s not just about the HR numbers. Whether it was a product of HoJo, a product of Jerry Manuel teaching them to pull the ball the other way, something changed in DW when the Mets moved to CitiField. Yes the Ks are high. But something else – three, four years ago there would be an 0-2 count on DW and the at-bat would just be starting. Now it’s almost a foregone conclusion he’s done.
And BTW his HR numbers may not have had a drastic decline overall but his HRs away are definitely more than home. I’ll give 2009 a pass because, well, everyone sucked then. He used to be stronger at home when Shea was still around, if you look at his home/away splits in 2008, as an example. Whether it’s an adjustment to the new place or adjustment to taking on the burden himself for the lack of production on the team, his RBI numbers declined as well.
Look I’m not saying David Wright is horrible or a bad player. I like him a great deal. But in the first 8 years of his career, no one would have ever said Scotty Rolen was a bad player either. Their numbers were very similar at the beginning of their careers as well. Just an example.
Coop – coincidence is not really evidence.
The fences and dimensions most certainly is not what made Wright a bad 2 strike hitter.
Something else did.
Lets look at the CitiField affect….
2010 Home 12 Hrs Away 17
2009 5 H 5 A (we will take these totals as an abberation of situation not field related since it doesn’t matter where he was that year they were dead even)
2008 21 H 12 A (is this where the lower HR at home idea started?)
2007 16 H 14 A
2006 13 H 13 A
2005 12 H 15 A
David Wright is not a HR hitter. He hits HRs so does Reyes, it doesn’t make them HR hitters!
When does he hit HRs?
Well 2009 says it’s not when all the big bats are out of the lineup and it’s pretty much just him!
His best year at home (2008) was all about who was hitting around him!
2009 Francouer 15Hrs, Murphy 12 Hrs, Beltran 10 Hrs, Sheffield 10, 47 Hrs Total teamwide not counting Wright”s 10Hrs! (Note for X – No Reyes only Castillo .387 OBP in front)
2008 Beltran 27 Hrs, Delgado 38 Hrs, Church 12 Hrs, 77 Hrs Total team wide not including Wright’s 33 that year! The Highest total he has ever had in his career! (Note for X – Reyes .358 OBP, Castillo .355 OBP in front)
What would have been the biggest change between 2008 and 2009?
The Field or the guys he had hitting around him?
What would more likely make david Wright a better two strike hitter?
Shea Stadium? Or the muderer’s row smaking rockets behind him?
What would more likly get a pitcher to throw a CAN’T MISS so make it FATTER strike with a full count to David Wright?
The Smaller confines of Shea Stadium? or The Hugh Expanse of CitiField?
OR
Is the fact that Both Castillo and/or Reyes was on base more than once every three times Wright would hit, and that it was better to take your chances on getting Wright out than it was to get out Beltran and Castillo? If your going to walk anyone it would have been those two not Wright!
davids problems have more to do with what is going on around him than him himself. And the effect on him is yes he tries to do too much.
Is that because of a Fence, Injuries around him or us just asking questions like where are the HRs when he is pretty much hitting them on his average.
baseball is a much a duel of psychology as it is an act of athleticism.
There are two reasons why, He isn’t getting the same opportunities based off the protection around him and when he is left to carry the team he presses and exacerbates the original problem of not getting the pitches to drive and swinging at the ones he shouldn’t!
Get a 30 HR hitter or two behind David and those walls in Citi will look like they need to be moved back!
Because he will get his HRs but he will never be Fielder OR Delgado!
I suggest we find a Delgado and not get rid of the one guy who has stayed to average whenever he had the guy around him to succeed.
And if he wasn’t hurt this very hot month which for him has historically been his best month, Who knows if we would even entertain trading him like we did with Reyes.
Fact is, there cannot be big money for Wright. Reyes and the other BIG TIME player they undoubtedly need. They need a bopper who can carry a team for awhile. They need a lot of other things too and they cost money. The mets overpaid David when they did not have to. Dumb move.
Ike Davis will be a big bopper. He was on his way to a 30-40 HR season this season, and it’s only his 2nd year in the bigs
You really cannot project something like that for an inexperienced player off of one and a half months of play in a season. I hope it is true, but if you were running an organization, you cannot do it with your fingers crossed all the time. Ike may be a sure thing, but we have no way of knowing yet. A fast start does not a season make.
i’m not crossing my fingers. If I was a member of the Mets organization or not that is exactly what I’m projecting Ike to be, i’m not guessing. This is my own evaluation of Ike and what he will be, not a guess.
Sometimes you get some right and sometimes you get em wrong. But you make up your mind and that’s it. I’m sure that’s what scouts do. If I was a GM i would want my scout to tell me exactly what he thinks and be sure about it. If he’s wrong more often than right than he’s out of a job i guess but if it’s the other way around than I guess he’ll be a scout in demand.
So if I was a member of the Mets organization I would be projecting Ike to be a part of the future and NOT a 20 HR guy but a 30 to maybe even a 45 HR guy. Definitely a 40 HR guy. I think he can hit over 300 too so let’s say .275 to maybe even can possibly go to .310 or so. Can he have a bad year in his career and hit ..249 with 24 HRs? Sure it’s possible lots of great hitters have had inexplicable awful years but I think his overall career numbers will be usually be .270-300 30-40 HR guy.
That is not a guess…..that is me saying what he will do.
Nathan I would ask anyone to cite examples where someone traded their BEST players and got better back.
What is the percentage of that happening when you look at the total of deals like that made?
Every year we see some big hot player get traded for prospects and out of the 4 or 5 deals a year like that over 20 years, how many times has the seller gotten more than they gave up?
3? 4 times in recorded history?
The concept of trading the guys who make your average talent higher in the name of getting replacements for guys who brought down that average never works.
All it does it make the team average not better!
It’s trading gold for silver and while you get more silver it is also worth less.
And you can still only play the best 25.
Only now you have lesser players to draw from!
Usually you trade one type of player for another type of player.
or a younger version of the player.
Agreed. We haven’t won with Reyes and Wright because Reyes and Wright are not enough on their own to win a World Series.
Those two have been and still are core players. Every team has got them, but core players alone don’t win world series, the supporting cast does – especially elite pitching.
Take away Rollins and Polanco from the Phillies and swap them with Wright and Reyes and I bet they go to the World Series.
Swap Pablo Sandoval and Miguel Tejada with Wright/Reyes let me know how they do.
Swap McGehee and Betancourt for our two undesirables, and tell me if the Brewers will win the division.
Having solid young players at SS and 3B alone does not a world series win. It takes an entire team, and getting rid of Wright and Reyes is not a solution, it’s a prescription for failure.
Then perhaps Hodges14, it’s an indictment on the FO which is possible and true in the case of the Mets. But this is an apples to oranges argument. Since 2001, only one team repeated in a WS win (the Sox), and since 2000 two teams (NYY and Sox). This is good for baseball, but then these other teams that have won have had role players (like Cody Ross and Renteria being kingpins for the SF Giants last year? who would have predicted that?). Core players do need to be built around – the argument here is that sometimes an unpopular move might be hard to swallow but might need to be considered in the evolution of a team.
(PS I’ve never said these two players are undesirables. In an ideal world I’d like to keep them both. As I) said, an unpopular move might need to be done for an evolution of the team.
A good reason would be because you have someone else who an do better already and want to make space to get something else somewhere else.
Who is better than Wright or Reyes on our roster right now?
No One? Then there is no good reason at all!
Yeah I knew I could count on Metsie for some bass-ackwards logic and twisting my words into something I didn’t even say. That whole good tires/bad tires argument. Dude. Are you Casey Anthony’s attorney?
Yes, I said they haven’t won a darn thing WITH those players. We can’t have it both ways – giving time to build with the players (which we did, it’s been 8 friggin years) and then say we need to build around them again.
Furthermore you disregard my argument about how David Wright doesn’t fit into the schematic at CitiField. Whether this is a product of not having protection (Beltran being injured, Bay not adjusting right away, misuse of DW in the lineup) or CitiField dimenions…DW is NOT a CitiField player.
I see you also don’t pay attention because pitching hasn’t been as big of a problem as you present it to be. The bullpen, yes. Starting, no. Nice try.
Bass Akwards is what you did coop.
We can’t win with our BEST TWO players so lets keep the crap and get rid of the good!
To BUILD properly you don’t set the cornerstone, build a house on it and then say because we didn’t finish the house we need to get rid of the cornerstone do you?
If they were good enough to build around then they are good enough to STILL be a building block, What is needed are MORE building blocks.
I would argue that we added Davis and Murphy to those two.
We now have 4 where we once had two…
You want to go back to just two so that in 8 years you can say well we built around Davis and Murphy and we didn’t win lets get rid of our best two players again?
Phillies kept Rollins and Utley…Where would they be if they did what you propose in 2007?
I responded to you Citifield accusations above but I will rep[ort it here to show you this CitiField affect on David is nonsense.
Wright’s numbers suggest there really was not much of a change, certainly not from anything to do with fences!
2005 27 Hrs
2006 26 Hrs
2007 30 Hrs
2008 33 Hrs
2009 (as mentioned above) 10 Hrs
2010 29 Hrs
2011 he had 6 before he got hurt.
2010 says his HR production has not dropped off at all due to playing in Citi Field.
Yet you folks keep saying Citi field is killing his HR numbers!
No the fences are YOUR problem not his, if he has any problem it is due to striking out trying to swing for fences making believe he is the Prince Fielder you guys all think he would be if you brought the fences in!
Stop thinking with your emotions and fantasies and look at the facts!
His HRs have not dropped since he started playing in Citifield only his Ks have increades and that all started the year we fans started saying what happened to david’s power when it has been as good as it ever was!
Uh ok there pal. Where ever did I say “keep the crap?” yes let’s trade Reyes and Wright and have a Marlins-style fire sale! No, I have never ADVOCATED that. Furthermore, you must be the only Mets fan who does not argue about the virtues of the walls at Citi – I am in the camp they need better players who can play to the dimensions, others argue that the walls need to be moved in. I feel that is a cowardly approach but who the hell am I, just a blogger with a platform and an opinion. I answered you above, but let’s take a look at other bass-ackwards arguments you’ve taken to task, specifically with me when my husband and I cowrote a blog and you made it into a “terrorists have won” manifesto. If you disagree with me, that’s fine. no need to be a jerk about it. I’m through arguing with you. Kthxbye.
Well your getting rid of the BEST players…whats left Coop?
If you get rid of the best players then who is on this team?
All the guys who are NOT our best players isn’t it?
The CRAP!
No reason they can’t keep them both. Yeah, they haven’t won, but that doesn’t mean that they can never win or that they need to cut bait. Both are still among the best players in the game at their respective positions. Not winning immediately doesn’t mean a player is never going to win.
Wright probably would be better off hitting in a park other than Citi. But even playing half his games at Citi he’s still one of the top 3b in the game.
No need to move either guy.