Philliy frittered away AS MANY 1st round picks as Omar did.

Philly Last Years Division winner was only 3 games better than we are right now!

Did they sell and rebuild?

Sure there is a fan uproar that we are the worst franchise in baseball history…

because of 5-13 not what has happened since then…
And they are WRONG!

We are not the worst franchise in baseball history, we are three games worse than Last year’s division winner (97 games) was on this date just one year ago!

They were buyers and we are sellers…If you really believe they know what they are doing then it makes no sense to do the opposite of what they did last year does it?

Both suffered from early injuries. it seems when the Phillies do it they are just fine and when the Mets do that all is lost. Phillies didn’t give up and there is no reason we should either thats what the comparison was for.

As for the Pence well why would anyone trade Pence for Beltran? I can see why if Philly is going to give up prospects they would give them more readily for the younger and longer contract of Pence.

If a deal like that was possible then it would be one thing because it fits what I have said in regards to getting something that can contribute immediatly as opposed to the kid who is going to spend a year or two in the minors and do nothing for us anytime soon.

If all your going to get for Beltran is a maybe then I would rather have that Maybe be about Carlos resigning and a continuance of playing hard this season than some kid that is a hope to becoming good.
Wether we like how he goes about it or not Carlos IS the ONLY leader we have as a regular position player. (Izzy may serve that in the Pen and Sanatan in the rotation).
Wright can’t seem to do it. Bay doesn’t have the performance to, Reyes is a Kid at heart and is never SERIOUS, Davis is hurt and even when he isn’t he is still too young. There HAS to be some veteran that can be here and turned to when some form of leadership is needed.

Pence certainly doesn’t fit that bill.

The Phillies persevere the way they do because they have Rollins and Utley, Who will be our version of either one once Beltran is gone? Paulino? Willie Harris?

Youth movement is nice but don’t you think we have more than enough youth already and it makes sense to keep at least one Vet (who DOES perform) to keep them all focused and on an even keel?

If Kids and youth were the answer to all problems then Veterans would not have jobs in the MLB.
You need one Mentor that those Kids can turn to and without beltran that will not be the case.

So whatever you think we might gain is going to be totally offset by the loss of that needed leadership!
As little as we percieve it is it does exist and won’t once Beltran is gone!

I can also unferstand losing Carlos to only a wave goodbye is a difficult resolution for many other fans.

Realizing both realities would make it paramount that if Carlos is dealt as anticipated, the returns being mulled about are insufficient to support both realities.

I’ve read & heard that the Plan B to acquiring Berltran among some suitors is the acquisition of the more reasonable acquisition of Hunter Pence from the Astros. Philadelphia is rumored to be leading the pack in sniffing about that alternative, assuming they can acquire Pence for what they can tolerate in prospects; I’d have to wonder if a 3-way sending Pence to NYM, Beltran to PHL & PHL prospects to HOU could be constructed. if so, it would seem to satisfy both positions of dealing Beltran for value while maintaining a momentum of BELIEF.
From a Philadelphis persperctive that course of action would be better than a straihght acquisition of Beltran which would enable their threats in ATL & SF to acquire Pence as their plan B,a 3-way deprives ATL & SF of both Plans simultaneously.
From a NYM perspective Pence is a significant upgrade for RF over Duda,Pridie,F-Mart & the presence of Beltran on PHL’s season ending roster would, if Boras follows pattern, preclude them from retaining him longer than the last few months of this Season. Of course, Pence’s current arbitration won 6.9M salary is higher than planned; but @ age 28 creates a triumvirate of talented ballplayers(Wright,Reyes,Pence) in meaningful productive positions all just entering their “PRIME”.
What do you think?

Who cut them loose again?

“dwright is unclutch: true”

If Wright is so unclutch, then you haven’t been paying attention lately. Why have you been such a chickenshit by not showing up when Wright has been getting big hit after big hit since returning?

“felix fills our biggest need which is pitching, so he makes us better than wright does automatically”

Felix is NEVER coming here. Stop putting that stupid little fantasy in your head! Wright wouldn’t even be enough to get Felix.

“it seems you have a personal vendetta against me hitman, but again, as i stated to you before, i will be at the stadium for games in aug 6th and 7th, you are more welcome to come and see me so we can talk baseball face to face, i am sure that’ll give you a chance to tell me how much i suck or a POS that i am”

If it’s one thing I cannot stand, it’s whining babies like you who say that somebody hasn’t done anything only to turn around and say “Hey! We’re gonna win the WC” out of spite just because you want to be right for a change. You beat a dead horse about players who haven’t been on the team for MONTHS and on top of that, a kid that hasn’t played an inning of minor league ball yet. It’s funny, you talk about Gee being a ROY candidate, but morons like you were saying that he was a “one year wonder” despite how he did last September before the year started…quite like you complain about Nimmo. You say you support this team, but in reality, you just want players to fail just because of the GM.

You actually think I’m gonna waste my time & money on a loser like you? You have more screws loose than I thought.

it seems you have a personal vendetta against me hitman, but again, as i stated to you before, i will be at the stadium for games in aug 6th and 7th, you are more welcome to come and see me so we can talk baseball face to face, i am sure that’ll give you a chance to tell me how much i suck or a POS that i am

But part of developing talent is to develop that fighting instinct.

Just as in Martial Arts it’s not the moves that make you deadly it is the practice, conditioning, the repetition of PROCCESS that instills the instinctual, REACTIONARY response needed to be a deadly fighter without thought or foreplanning.

By practicing the moves you react according to instint not thought.

Now we could get some kid for Beltran who has that but good luck, he is likely to need to have that instinct istalled in him as well.

But instead, if keeping Beltran conditions what we have to play with the same fight for the rest of the season (which for many would be an entire season save two 5-13 weeks) It might become SECOND NATURE and stay there for years to come.

Just as Rollins Bravado helped motivate those Phillies into that spirit way back when we were the team to beat. That attitude transformed them.

If keeping Beltran can make that happen here, then what we get for keeping him does more for the players we have than anything we would get for him. Trading Beltran might get us one good player we can develop.
Keeping him might help develop the 4 or 5 guys we already have! Thats a 4 fold increase from what we get in the trade considering what people think we will get in return for him.

If they do manage to finish this season with that fighting spirit then it is quite possible it will transform the entire roster to play that way and be champions next year and beyond.

Now that doesn’t mean we must keep Beltran at all costs nor does it mean there is no package that is worth making the deal.
But it does suggest that instead of going for kids it might be better to trade him and something else (Pay his Salary if need be) to get someone (SPitching or a really good hitting replacement) that will help us win games now and next year.

Not exactly a Sell and maybe not exactly a BUY. (We can always resign Beltran later if we want to.)

Thats different than many people propose but most of them made up their mids based on Picard’s suit and 5-13.

They would rather cut salary and build the Minors.
What happens to the guys who are winning/fighting now while we wait for that to pay off?

Truth is there are a lot better option to trade away that would have less effect and net us about the same in return such as Bay and even Wright!

We have done what we have without much help from either of those guys.
Trading Wright (and I don’t really say we should just pointing out some realities here) would open up a permanent spot for Murphy. He’s no David Wright but a big part of the FIGHT we have seen.

Wright could certainly net you a frontline starting pitcher if you throw in Tejada or Thole maybe even Duda and some MiL Pitching. Maybe a Carrasco?

Bay won’t get as much but he too is quite expendable and not a big contributor to what we have been doing.

Who we trade is not the issue of the article but WHO we get and target with whatever trade we make is the key here.

If we just trade for a kid then it looks like we are playing for the long haul rebuild. That (Not the loss of Beltran) will take the wind out of the sails.
And if thats what we plan on getting then I say the hell with it, trade Minors to get that kid and keep Beltran so that this team can be conditioned to fight for a full season and maybe that will carry over regardless of who we resign next year.

5-13 happened largely because everyone expected there to be a fire sale that included Reyes and Beltran and K-Rod and maybe even more…

Collins convinced them they could do something about it if they just played. he convinced them we were not playing for about 4 years from now we were playing for now. And they started making the game TODAY count!

Thats when they started fighting. And maybe if we can keep the idea that this team is not going to sell off and build the minors but instead build the Majors by trading what we have for immediate impact it might remain and carry over into 2012.

So trading Beltran is not the act that would deflate them. It’s what we get FOR Beltran or someone else that will signal Surrender this year and next.

I would prefer we make our Oswalt trade this year and then see what we can get in the offseason if Harvey and Holt are not the guys.

We are closer to the championship than we are to being the worst team in baseball.
And now that the team has finally showed some fight that hasn’t been seen since 86 I think we should tread carefully to see that we don’t screw that up just because we are worried about Beltran signing elsewhere and getting nothing for him.

Especially if what we are getting is not going to see the light of Citi for the next two or three years.

If losing Beltran helps them to maintain the fight in other ways then it should not affect them.
But if it is just a “Get Something” instead of Nothing I think that having Beltran finish the season is worth more to the players we currently have on the roster than that something we get for him.

So like I said it’s not about the departure of Beltran that would do that, it’s what we accept in return!

When K-Rod was traded, Collins was asked his thoughts on whether or not the team would give up and not play hard, or something to that effect. Collins answered that if these players won’t play hard, he’d find some that will, or something to that effect. Then we all waxed poetic on what a gem of a manager Sandy hired and how great he is. Now you’ve all but assured he’d lose the entire team if Beltran is traded.

I think trading Beltran is the right thing to for various reasons, but I have no doubt that the players on the field will play to their fullest potential, whether or not that happens.

“pagan, the most overrated met after #5″
“wright for felix!” (While Wright was on the DL)

You are the biggest two-faced POS on this site. NOW you want to cheer for the Mets when you’ve been crapping on them all year. Amazing how the tide turns between the realists and imbeciles like yourself.

As I said it may well be too late for this year. As good as we are we still need Atlanta or any of the other teams to go on a losing streak (hopefully losing to us!) to make this year a race.

The point I was making is that what is done is done. What was is different.
Wilpons are not broke as many believed when they made their minds up. We are not a 5-13 team when many cashed in their season and decided no point to watch anymore.

While many fans have given up, the team itself has not! It may if we proceed as if the Wilpons lost a billion dollars in a now defunct lawsuit or we weheel and deal as if that 5-13 team is the same one playing tonite.

It would take a miracle to win the Wildcard and maybe a lazarus visit from Jesus himself to get close to the Division title.

Doing that or believing that will happen is not what is the most important thing we should be considering right now.

No matter what you believe 2012 is the target at this point. Do we tear down what we have or build upon it because it appears to be a solid base.

We are likely to trade Beltran, for what, seems to be the only unknown. The question is do we go for some kid or do we sweeten the pot to get something that helps avoid that 5-13 start next year. Something that doesn’t require inspired play to win 55 games at the deadline, something that makes winning 97 games not such a stretch of the imagination?

This is the moment we have all waited for…
Which way does Sandy go?

Build or re-build.
And I think we are closer to build than re-build.

What happens this year is irrelevent, What we do this year towards next year is now the most important decision we face. And if the way they play now is any indication we are much closer than anyone is giving us credit for or has since the season started and thet 5-13 start made us all give up.

Alex, opinions are personal, but the laws of arithmetic aren’t.

I do think though that trading him MAY (no guarantee) suck some of the life out of them.
I hope not but attitude and mental state is a very fragile thing. And as the engineers credo says…If it ain’t broke don’t fix it! LOL

As of right now it doesn’t appear to be broke just put itself into a situation it is very hard to dig out of. But the attempt might make them stronger and more focused in avoiding that hole they dug next year.

As for the 89 game mark I agree it’s a big climb but not unprecedented as the Phillies showed last season. They were at precisely the same record as we would have been (with a .500 start instead of 5-13). They won 97 games. So if we played as well as they did from this point on we would wind up at 93 wins. Tall order to say the least and I am not predicting we will just saying it’s not unreasonable when you look at how injuries hurt Philly last year as well and one near Ace pitcher helped them accomplish a stunning second half to overtake the Braves.

I don’t presume we will do that nor do I think we are AS GOOD as that Philly team in the 2nd half. But we would be neck and neck with that philly team of last year if not for that lousy start we had at this point in time.

In order to do it we need to beat everyone they (braves and Phillies) beat and then make up our ground in head to head matchup.
And while I admit that bad start maybe insurmountable this year the reason I made the post at all was to showcase that with this team the way it is, If they avoid that bad start next year, we could be sitting precisely where the Phillies were and be AS GOOD as the Phillies were at this point last year.

They are currently the best team in baseball after losing Jason Werth and gaining Cliff Lee and that deadline trade of Oswalt they made last year at this time.

It might be too late for this season but they have proved to be good enough to build on instead of tearing down. And now that Wilpon comes out as a winner not a loser in Madoff there is no reason to pare down salary just for the sake of saving money.

But in the end all of what I said is just a big WHAT IF.
means nothing for this year. Next year is still the year we should be focusing on now. Lets just stop thinking about that 5-13 when we judge just how good this team is and we we take it from here.
I think that was the point I was most interested in putting out there.