I’m sure it’s lovely on your mantle piece.

“First off no one ever claimed Turner was an Omar draft selection,”

Go back and read.

“merely an Omar acquisition of a former highly regarded Cincinatti draft pick dealt to Baltimore who, like Beato left him exposed to be claimed by an astute talent evaluator for virtually nothing.”

I have no idea how Minaya snatched him up from the astute talent evaluator. Shame Minaya was astute enough to promote Turner instead of making us watch Tejada and Castillo provide opposing pitchers with an automatic out.

“I believe the term journeyman is not applicable to young misjusged talents.”

It is way more applicable here than “astute talent evaluator”

“It’s quite obvious to those who actually pay attention, that the only usable talent on the farm after ’06 had already been fully depleted and the spate of MLB injuries over taxed the meager resources deemed at all near ready.”

Again, I’m not faulting Omar for not building an instant winner. I’m faulting him for trying to.

As to your defending to early promotion, again, Minaya should have had the stones to tell us what was what. Instead, he just tried to win today and figure out tomorrow afterwards.

“As to your harping on the fragilities og Havens & F-Mart, let me remind u of other such current MLBers who suffered through fragile minor league seasons, namely Reyes as well as one, Cole Hamels to quickly name 2 off the tip of my tongue while they’ve proven successful MLBers, another not as successful; but proven somewhat servicable on a few clubs was the onetime Phillips’ favorite, Jay Payton.”

Then maybe we didn’t need to be sold on guys like Martinez being the team’s new future hall of famer.

Your examples of successful closer by committees are????????

Sorta makes thuis comment by u more than a bit arrogant & definitely DUMB!
“They really don’t know any better and have wholeheartedly bought into the flawed concept”
SINCE THE ONLY CONSISTANT THREAD IN YOUR ENTIRE SEQUENCE OF DISCONNECTED WITH REALITY THOUGHTS HAS BEEN “WINNING THE WORLD SERIES IS ALL THAT MATTERS I would have to believe that the winning methodologies practiced by every WS winning team over the past 4 years would be construed by u as more than, monkey see; monkey do.

“And if we can’t blame Omar for his failures since it was the Wilpons calling the shots, then in all fairness, we can’t credit the “very limited) success to him either.”

That logic is equal to someone precluding u from studying & excelling in an English exam causing u to not be credited with a well earned A in History.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE FACETS TO NEARLY EVERY EXECUTIVE POSITION, INHIBITING SOME; BUT NOT ALL SHOULD NOT PRECLUDE THE EXECUTIVE FROM BEING CREDITED IN AREAS THAT WERE UNENCUMBERED OR WHERE ENCUMBERANCES WERE OVERCOME.

“He had to do no such thing. He should have been the adult in the room. He should have stuck to the plan he supposedly had and shown the Wilpons and the fans gradual results along the way.”

That raises the question, when was the last ime u saw a dog being waved by his tail? Employees don’t dictate to the owners dogs(owners) wag tails(GM) tails don’t wg dogs!

in other words U R WRONG,WRONG,WRONG,DEAD WRONG & BTW HELL NO!

Paying for saves is stupid. Teams still do it for 2 reasons

1) They really don’t know any better and have wholeheartedly bought into the flawed concept

2) Are worried about the blow back from the media and fans if they don’t have an ordained closer to treat like fine China, and then your team loses 1 game in the 9th inning. Parnell Izzy and Beato could combine for 25 saves from now until the end of the season and all we’d hear about is the 2 or 3 that got blown.

since 1900, the team with a 1 run lead in the 9th inning has preserved that lead for the win 84% of the time. 2 run leads jumps that up to 94% and 3 runs up to 96%. How many closers these days are that good? The best team save % in the league is the Phillies at 91%, next is the Detroit at 83%. So, if anything, relyign on 1 inning closers seems to be hurting teams.

So, once again: Paying for Saves is stupid.

Oh, goodie. Here comes the myth making

“One thing about your posts is quite obvious, it is your “blind to facts” hatred of Minaya’s term as GM.”

Blind to the facts? That he didn’t build the farm up the way he promised? That he didn’t build a team around speed and defense the way he promised? That he mortgaged the future for quick fix headlines?

I don’t hate Omar at all. I don’t even hold him totally to blame for the failure of his tenure. But, make no mistake, his tenure was a failure.

“Omar was hired by a team in absolutely miserable disaray since it’s David V. Goliasth match on the Subway of 2000.”

You mean Goliath vs slightly smaller Goliath. Let’s not exaggerate here.

But yes, the franchise was down the crapper with horrible bloated contracts and a non-existent farm system. I never said Omar came into an easy place. Just that it was better than what Huntington walked into.

“Unfortuunately, there’s evidence that Minaya was totally unaware of that condition when he signed Pedro & was pursuing Beltran and that he was shocked by the knowledge imparted to him by Bill Madden, over a breakfast interview on the veranda of his hotel suite in Puerto Rico right in the closing days of the Beltran pursuit. Some might consider Omar failed his due diligence prior to accepting the position by not inquiring if his planned method to simultaneously build a winning MLB roster & a functionally contributing Farm system; but others might point to why as MontreaL GM would he have paid attention to a NYM policy decision and why would he suspect any BIG MKT team to slit their own wrists voluntarily in this manner.”

As a GM of a division rival, he should have been well aware of the other team’s draft strategies.

He should have at the very least have found out about this at the interview when he mapped out his plan or when doing his research into the franchise’s assets.

Oh, and by the way, HE WORKED IN THEIR SCOUTING DEPARTMENT DURING PHILIPS’ TENURE! He even made his way up to Philips’ assistant GM, so there are many reasons to think he knew of the organization’s drafting strategy (or lack of one).

“Donal to recap: in 2005 the ability to rebuild a farm system with only one apparent type A prospect via dealing vets for youth was obliterated as was the ability to use finacial muscle to improve the available draft talent selected.”

And I give Omar a pass on 2005. He had to totally revamp the system. Like I keep saying, we should have expected results around 2009. I’m not mad he didn’t have the Mets on an instant WS run, but I do hold him accountable for not having a productive farm on the 5th year of his tenure. He did leave the farm system better than he found it, but that was a pretty low bar.

“While, I’d never denigrate the monumental effort & remarkable results achieved by Huntington in Pittsburgh aka Pitts-puke(old school late 80s terminology) one glance @ the current Pirate depth chart reveals the produce of a well established fertile farm obviously created by using the trade market to extricate themselves from potential onerous finacial constraints in favor of young talent infusion to suppliment their early draft selection positions. ”

In short, Huntington did a really good job. Thanks for verifying my point.

“Donal, one other method of restocking a depleted farm is the acquisition od premere talent by being positioned early & often through successive draft years by substandard MLB in season performances.”

You don’t have to. Plenty of good teams keep having good drafts. Of course, you are also ignoring International Free Agent acquisitions, which was supposed to be his specialty.

“vying for sports dollars spent in the same market with the perceived Best franchise in history precludes tht option as viable an encumbrance no other franchise must endure.”

And that’s the problem. I’ve said for years we have to ignore the Yankees. Forget them and their knuckle dragging fans and the sycophantic press and just worry about building a sustainable winner. Don’t forget, the Yankees went through the process in the late 80s early 90s under Gene Michaels. They endured the slings and arrows and came out the better for it.

Because that is what a GM is supposed to do. He’s supposed to be the adult in the room and make good baseball decisions for the good of the team. He should have the stones to stand up to the press and explain to the fans when a play off run was a fluke, or how acquiring a big name free agent this year is not the responsible thing to do.

And if the Wilpons were interfering with his work, maybe Omar should have called out Jeffy in a press conference instead of Adam Rubin.

“As for Wagner: Paying for saves is stupid.”

I’m just guessing here; but you’ve obviously chosen to ignore the actions of BOS,NYY,PHL,SF
as respectively they chose to be stupid by your definition by allocating
Papelbon, 1yr 12M
Rivera, 3y 30M
Lidge, 3yr 37.5M
Wilson 3y 15M
Donal, In the land of inanity, the logical man is king. bow down before me, lol

There’s NO WAY they can get better right? they way they are now is the way they are ALWAYS going to be – yup.

This reminds me a lot like last year when people said Ike wasn’t going to be good because of his “lack of speed” – I guess now when ever a good mets player gets called up we attack them for their ONE flaw and overlook all the postives they bring to the table.

Huntington didn’t build the team through the draft – Every member of his rotation wasn’t drafted by him – Actually I don’t think anybody good on that team was drafted by huntington. Alvarez was but he’s done nothing this year – So saying that thePirates prove that you can build through the draft quickly is a bad example.

One thing about your posts is quite obvious, it is your “blind to facts” hatred of Minaya’s term as GM.
As I’ve ststed to u in the past, I’ve no intention of defending Omar’s choices or specific personnel decisions; however, my sole intent is to stipulate the “hiostorical facts & conditions of his assuming the reins in ’05. As I can clearly document with the famous MLB historical statistics. Omar was hired by a team in absolutely miserable disaray since it’s David V. Goliasth match on the Subway of 2000. After slipping back to medioctrity(82-80) in ’01, Phillips presided over the next 2 years’02,’03 to the tune of a combined 40G under .500(141-181) and successive 5th place finishes(last) slightly altering that direction South, Jerff handpuppet, Duquette, assumed the reins to complete ’04 slightly improve to 71-91 or fourth place combining with the Phillips’ post WS appearance record of 294-352 managing no better than 1 third place, 1 fourth place & 2 last place finishes amassed from 2001 through 2004. Oh, and by the way, in 2004 Jeff & Duquette strip mined the active roster of every tradeable under performing overpaid veteran managing to deal such vets as Alomar,Benitez,Burnitz, Ventura, Zeile while acquiring only 1 notable prospect, Royce Ring thus wasting one of the 3 primary means of restructuring a failed roster. Typically throughout MLB history teams who fail in a sprint to the postseason, by acquiring “quick fix” veterans(aged short-termers) recou[p their lost chances to rebuild from within by dealing said vets for multiple type A & B prospects acquired from different teams looking for that “missing piece” upgrading the prospect quality acquired by including a cash stipend to ease the pain of the dealt contract. Jeff Wilpon, for this 2004 purge, reportedly ordered Duquette to refuse ant deal requiring such payment & only consumate those deals whereby the acquiring club assumed the entire financial burden. This destroyed any oportunity the team had to readjust to a “within” strategy.
Another very noteworthy Jeff Wilpon destructive interference was his hiring of Rick Peterson as his “personal executive Advisor on Franchise Pitching.
Steve Phillips made his disdain for the drasft & the value of drafted acquisitions painfully & plainly apparent when he publicly stated that because he found it impossible to forcast a selection’s progression period as well as what positional need was most apparent on the MLB roster that coincided with that progression, he established a model whereby, since pitching was always in short supply & always in high denmand, he would negate the need to prognosticate his needs by acquiring an abundance of pitchers(to deal for his needs) so he set about choosing the most signable pitching talents available through most of his term’s draft selections this did accomplish his goal of surplus MiLB pitching at ALL talent levels, there is no telling how Phillips’ scheme would’ve ultimately panned out because Jeff removed the GM’s power to control the pitching assets dealt/acquired away from the GM position, assigning total, absolute pitching authority to his recently hired, press proclaimed, Team Pitching Guru, Peterson.
Peterson immediately went on tour of the system, evaluating, testing the various pitching components acquired over the years by Phillips, those that failed his personal expectations were extricated through trades executed by the GM office; but suggested/ordered by Peterson. The most egregious of these dispatchings was Scott Kazmir for Victor zambrano, a horrendous deal Peterson is clearly on record as supporting since he had concluded Kazmir was intractable in not adopting Peterson’s style mechanics changes causing Peterason to proclaim Kazmir was a severe injury risk while his observations of Zambrano over the years had him convinced a mere 10 minute twaek of Zambrano’s delivery would FIX him into becoming the stud pitcher his “stuff” had always indicated.

Donal, all in all what u have at the time Omar assumed control is a totally broken system constructed bt Phillips, deconstructed by Peterson/Jeff/Duquette that presented itself as a sub-.500 for years mediocre MLB roster with an arid farm system in need of a COMPLETE & TOTAL OVERHAUL. Also in evidence, at this time, is that, on the advice of his then GM, Phillips, controlling Partner, Fred Wilpon publicly aligned himself with Selig’s proposed Draft Slot Guidelines, precluding the team from the rebuilding strategy mostly employed by big market franchises, NYY,BOS,LAD. whereby they replace lost first round talent selections in the draft by poaching skipped first round players overlooked by sm-mid mkts due to large bonus demands, as the practice is for the big mkt team to select the best of these still on the board & pay them their first round price even though they were picked in a later round. Now, the Commisioner’s office recognized this loophole in the F/A compensation penalty rules, thus Selig, only empowered to suggest/recommend the suspension of this “poaching” practice, published a guide allocating a range of remunerations not to be exceeded based upon the selection position the amatuer player was picked in, compliance with this Guideline is strictly voluntary & to this day, reularly ignored by most big market franchises who surrendered their firast rounder for a key F/A signing. As Phillips had no regard for the draft as a meaningful tool, it was logical for him to recommend his ownership curry favor with Selig by being the only big market team to issue a public statement in support of the Guidelines.
Unfortuunately, there’s evidence that Minaya was totally unaware of that condition when he signed Pedro & was pursuing Beltran and that he was shocked by the knowledge imparted to him by Bill Madden, over a breakfast interview on the veranda of his hotel suite in Puerto Rico right in the closing days of the Beltran pursuit. Some might consider Omar failed his due diligence prior to accepting the position by not inquiring if his planned method to simultaneously build a winning MLB roster & a functionally contributing Farm system; but others might point to why as MontreaL GM would he have paid attention to a NYM policy decision and why would he suspect any BIG MKT team to slit their own wrists voluntarily in this manner.
Donal to recap: in 2005 the ability to rebuild a farm system with only one apparent type A prospect via dealing vets for youth was obliterated as was the ability to use finacial muscle to improve the available draft talent selected.

While, I’d never denigrate the monumental effort & remarkable results achieved by Huntington in Pittsburgh aka Pitts-puke(old school late 80s terminology) one glance @ the current Pirate depth chart reveals the produce of a well established fertile farm obviously created by using the trade market to extricate themselves from potential onerous finacial constraints in favor of young talent infusion to suppliment their early draft selection positions. Donal, one other method of restocking a depleted farm is the acquisition od premere talent by being positioned early & often through successive draft years by substandard MLB in season performances. vying for sports dollars spent in the same market with the perceived Best franchise in history precludes tht option as viable an encumbrance no other franchise must endure.
Donal, certainly Minaya made more than his share of blunders; I’ve no issue pilloring him for those of his oewn creation; but please keep your historical perspective straight!

Win what? Why is this so hard to get?

6 1/2 half years later and nothing to show.

“And what do the Pirates have ANYTHING to do with this? Are the somehow related to the Mets drafting? No. So THAT is irrelevant. And this has nothing to do with payroll either, so that point is irrelevant too – This is about Mets drafting, so please stick to the topic, and stop jumping around all over the place.”

You c;aimed Minaya did not have enough time to build a farm that produces a winning team. What Huntington has done in Pittsburgh proves that idea wrong. Or rather proves that Minaya simply did a poor job of it. Huntington had a way worse situation than what Minaya walked into and yet somehow, is about to have better results than Minaya in 2 years less.

If you don’t want examples of other guys doing things better than Minaya, then stop defending Minaya on things he did poorly.

“Parnell has 3.19 ERA and more K’s than innings pitched – Man, what a HORRIBLE 9th round pick that was.”

Ya, great job finding a failed starter. Not many of those wandering around the league. And great job not devoloping him and keeping him buried.

“Gee is a utilty guy? Based on what? He’s been SOLID for us this year, and this is his FIRST year in the big leagues too.”

Based on his, you know, abilities. I like Gee. I think he should be on the team for years to come. But he’s a utility guy. He’s built for long relief and spot starting. If he pulls 20 starts a year, something went very wrong.

“Murphy is in the top ten in hitting, if the Mets can’t find a spot for him, then he’ll be traded to a team that DOES have a spot for him – either way it’s a great pick because even if they do trade him they will get value for him.”

Yes, nifty utility guy I’d like to see stay with the team for a long time. He can probably play 2B next year, but don’t for a second try and sell me that this was Minaya’s plan. Minaya’s plan was to platoon him in left field.

“Mike Pelfrey also has given the Mets two good season in 08 and 10, so he’s a good pick because like I said earlier, most picks bust – so when you get a guy who gives you something it’s always a good pick, even if your not a big fan of that player – i’m sure you’d like him better than some guy who never made it to the majors right?”

You can’t say he’s good just because Minaya promoted him when the argument is Omar did a lousy job developing players. And Pelfrey’s 08 and 10 weren’t that hot. His peripherals have been the same for the most part, which shows its factors that are beyond his control that are making he difference.

“The other RP is Joe Smith, yes I know what’s coming “but joe smith was traded in the J.J putz deal!!! so he doesn’t count” But he DOES count because this is about the DRAFT, and ONLY about the draft, and NOTHING else.”

No, we’re talking about building a farm and strengthening the team, which is more than the draft. That includes IFAs and player development. So, that means the failed starter he drafted that turned into a decent relief pitcher gets held against him since he traded him away for an expensive bust.

When an agent for a pitcher with no bargaining position what so ever somehow gets a bunch of cash and a big league contract, which hurts his development and the club’s player acquisitions, that gets held against Minaya.

And what do the Pirates have ANYTHING to do with this? Are the somehow related to the Mets drafting? No. So THAT is irrelevant. And this has nothing to do with payroll either, so that point is irrelevant too – This is about Mets drafting, so please stick to the topic, and stop jumping around all over the place.

As I said before, your not being objective AT ALL. You put a negative spin on every player the Mets drafted – which is of course, unfair.

Parnell has 3.19 ERA and more K’s than innings pitched – Man, what a HORRIBLE 9th round pick that was. and Gee is a utilty guy? Based on what? He’s been SOLID for us this year, and this is his FIRST year in the big leagues too. Murphy is in the top ten in hitting, if the Mets can’t find a spot for him, then he’ll be traded to a team that DOES have a spot for him – either way it’s a great pick because even if they do trade him they will get value for him.

Mike Pelfrey also has given the Mets two good season in 08 and 10, so he’s a good pick because like I said earlier, most picks bust – so when you get a guy who gives you something it’s always a good pick, even if your not a big fan of that player – i’m sure you’d like him better than some guy who never made it to the majors right?

The other RP is Joe Smith, yes I know what’s coming “but joe smith was traded in the J.J putz deal!!! so he doesn’t count” But he DOES count because this is about the DRAFT, and ONLY about the draft, and NOTHING else.

Nope. I’ll be shocked if most of those guys are still here in 2013.

“It’s also not true that he only got two starters.”

Let me rephrase it then. Major League quality starters.

” It’s three SP’s,”

Gee is a utility guy and Pelf has been ruined. 1 legit MLB starting pitcher

” a 1B,”

that’s the other one

“Murphy is going to be starting somewhere next year after this season, no doubt about that,”

Well, ya, but that’s because we can’t get an actual starting 2B up here. He’s a utility guy who they desperately need to get into the line up but because there are so many other holes on the team, they can’t hide him on the field. He is adequate at 1B and 2B, but that’s not what you want on a playoff team.

” and two RP’s.”

Parnell? Really? You want to refer to Parnell? Who is the other reliever?

” And a good bat in Duda….”

And not much else. Also, that bat isn’t good enough to cover for his defense. Not much use for a DH on this team.

“Thole is also a good hitter.”

He’s a platoon guy at best. He needed more time in the minors.

Because it is irrelevant.

“My point was it doesn’t matter HOW or WHY they are here all that matters is that they have helped the team win.”

Ya, look at that nifty banner…wait, where’s the banner?

“and what do I mean by “help the team win.” Well, it’s very simple, and I didn’t think I needed to explain it – Where would we be this season without Murphy, Niese, Gee, Parnell, Thole, Duda, and Ike? I know we wouldn’t be .500 right now, that’s for sure.”

So, 6 1/2 years later and on a $140 million payroll, we are supposed to be excited about .500?

In Neal Huntington’s 4th full season, the Pirates are knocking on the door to October with a $42 million payroll. You going to tell me he’s had it easier than Minaya?

It’s also not true that he only got two starters. It’s three SP’s, a 1B, Murphy is going to be starting somewhere next year after this season, no doubt about that, and two RP’s. And a good bat in Duda….Thole is also a good hitter.

and what do I mean by “help the team win.” Well, it’s very simple, and I didn’t think I needed to explain it – Where would we be this season without Murphy, Niese, Gee, Parnell, Thole, Duda, and Ike? I know we wouldn’t be .500 right now, that’s for sure.

And what happened after?

Pedro was fun to watch, but he wasn’t a driving force or anything. Minaya paid for 2000 Pedro.

Delgado was a good pick up, bt he was 32 with a bad back. Minaya should have known his clock was ticking.

And Beltran fell into his lap. When the BoSox and Yankees walked away, Minaya still had to over pay for him.

As for Wagner: Paying for saves is stupid.

“but don’t sit here and tell me you werent gushing about pelfrey’s last 2 years? ”

I was not. I saw the peripherals. I have always said he’s peaks and valleys.

“or niese now?? ”

Ya, I’m high on Niese.

“again, injuries didn’t help his cause either, as he had to bring in garbage to play in the MAjors, but he built a team that with less injuries and a few lucky breaks here and there could’ve won 1 or 2 championships!!!!”

If he hadn’t acquired so many guys who were likely to get injured, maybe we don’t have all these problems.

“he was way in over his head as a gm, but he’s done ok at evaluating some of the players we got, and he got murphy also, and turner was ACQUIRE by omar, don’t forget!!”

2 utility guys, one of whom stayed buried in Buffalo while guys like Luis Hernandez and Castillo were getting whacks at 2B.

Yes, it does. It means everything. Acquisition and development are the whole point for a farm system. You can’t just dismiss over 50% of the job because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

“all that matters is the Mets got players that HELPED the team win in EVERY draft. ”

Win what? You and alex keep saying this, but I have no idea what you are referring to.

“You see teams have drafts where they get NOBODY”

Yes, and we call those terrible drafts.

“but that never happend with Omar”

Just because he promoted them doesn’t make them good.

“very year we got players, and some guys with a lot of upside – if you get good players in every draft, and some with upside, i don’t know how that’s a “bad” thing, and how every day we have to rant about how bad our drafting has been.”

Minaya didn’t draft for upside. at least, not until 2010.

“our not being objective at all. Why did most of his picks turn out to not good? because MOST draft picks BUST. The majority of draft picks don’t make it to the MLB. All Gm’s will draft busts, and saying Omar was bad at drafting because he drafted some guys who weren’t good shows your not being objective, or you don’t understand anything about the draft.”

If you do it right, you get 50+ picks per draft. you’re telling me a good team shouldn’t expect at least one starting player out of every draft? Plus the IFAs? It’s not too much to ask to produce at least 1 position player every year. 50+ picks each year and the IFAs should accidentally give you 1 or 2 everyday players.

“and your also upset because he only drafted two guys who can be all stars in four years?”

I’m upset because 6 1/2 years later, they are the only 2 starting players we have from him. Everyone else is a utility guy, a back up or a platoon player. I’m still not completely sold on Gee. And the rest of our farm system is depleted.

“Again this shows that your not being objective AT ALL. I guess now it’s only a good draft if we draft a whole bunch all star players in a short amount of time? That’s ridiculous, AND unfair.”

No, I want 1 or 2 starting players ready to come up every year. I would have waited until 2009 for Omar to make this happen and am giving Alderson 4 years as well.

You see teams have drafts where they get NOBODY….but that never happend with Omar, every year we got players, and some guys with a lot of upside – if you get good players in every draft, and some with upside, i don’t know how that’s a “bad” thing, and how every day we have to rant about how bad our drafting has been.

Your not being objective at all. Why did most of his picks turn out to not good? because MOST draft picks BUST. The majority of draft picks don’t make it to the MLB. All Gm’s will draft busts, and saying Omar was bad at drafting because he drafted some guys who weren’t good shows your not being objective, or you don’t understand anything about the draft.

and your also upset because he only drafted two guys who can be all stars in four years? Again this shows that your not being objective AT ALL. I guess now it’s only a good draft if we draft a whole bunch all star players in a short amount of time? That’s ridiculous, AND unfair.