12
2011
It’s Been An Exciting First Half For The Mets, So Why Are Some Waving A White Flag?
An article by Tie Dyed
The date was Sunday, October 3. The Mets suffered a heartbreaking, but yet typical loss, losing 2-1 to the Nats in 14 innings. Thus the curtain came down on 2010 and we ended the season 79-83.
Within hours of the 2010 season ending, we had already given up on 2011. Normally winter is a time for fans to regroup, refocus and ‘wait till next year.’ But when 2010 ended, we were already saying ‘wait till a few years.’
The calm demeanor of Jerry Manuel was replaced with the no-nonsense approach of Terry Collins. Much disliked big spending Omar Minaya was replaced with the spendthrift analytical Sandy Alderson. But still the negativity stayed.
When Mike Pelfrey finally took the mound on Opening Day only one thing was sure: That we had no hope for 2011. Our SP would not be competitive, our bullpen was a joke and the health of our biggest stars was uncertain.
Here we are at the All-Star Break. Our Opening Day starter, our “ace”, has a total of 5 wins through 3 ½ months. Our “true” ace has not pitched all season. Our premier offensive threat has been on the DL since mid-May. Our supposed big HR hitter, Jason Bay, has just 6 and has not even reached 30 RBI’s yet. Young sensation Ike Davis hasn’t played since May 10. Jose Reyes was having an MVP-type season until the arrival of the ghost of hamstrings past.
Yes, a lost season indeed. The talk of rebuilding has not let up since Opening Day. It seems a foregone conclusion the Mets may very well be sellers at the trading deadline. It’s very likely that Beltran, K-Rod, Reyes and even possibly Pelfrey may be on borrowed time. We all accept that and have come to live with that fact. My question is ‘Why?’
In spite of the turmoil in the front office, the nagging injuries, the recurring injuries, the lack of a legitimate HR threat, this team has remained competitive. We have played decent solid baseball. Terry Collins has won over his harshest critics, myself included.
We are 46-45, just 7 ½ out of the wildcard. Will we catch the Phillies? No, not a chance. Will we turn it up and sneak into the wildcard? Probably not. But anything is possible. Unless I missed something, the season IS 162 games, not 91.
Whereas the pessimism has remained and the talk of a lost season has not ceased, I see an opportunity. We do have a chance, an outside shot, to still do something amazin’. If any team in Baseball is capable of a miracle, it is our Mets.
I see the following: I see a team that is still in contention, that is competitive. And soon (hopefully) we’ll be getting back Wright, possible MVP Reyes and former Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana. If Jason Bay continues to improve and Beltran stays the course, why are we even considering becoming sellers?
“Ya Gotta Believe’ is our mantra. But is it just something we regurgitate or is it something we really do believe? I still believe.
The Mets are 46-45, 3rd place, just 7 ½ out of the wildcard. It was July 10th of another year. On this date, the Mets defeated Houston, 1-0, when Jon Matlack tossed a 1 hit shut out defeating Jerry Reuss. With Matlack’s victory, the Mets were now 10 games UNDER 500, sitting in last place in the NLE, 12 games out of first. And 1973 seemed to turn out pretty good. I’m sure as hell glad the pessimism and defeatist attitude we display today was not present in 1973.
About the Author: Rob Silverman
It was 1973 when my dad introduced this 7 year old kid to Baseball and the Mets. It's been a love and passion that has lasted for 40 years, much longer than my first marriage. Since I was little, there've been 2 things I've always dreamed of: 1) Being a successful author and 2) playing right field for the Mets after Rusty Staub retired. Although 4 decades have passed and based on the current condition of the Mets, I have not given up on either dream
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Just 7 ½ out of the wildcard? That’s not a positive thing dude.
haha. The Nats are JUST 8 games out too!
Heck the Orioles are JUST 17 out!
By the way
“We are 46-45, just 7 ½ out of the wildcard. Will we catch the Phillies? No, not a chance”
Here’s what I find odd about the argument about the wildcard. Every time it seems the Mets have no shot at the division and catching Philly.
Yet, Atlanta is 3.5 games back and CAN win the division. So if there’s no chance of catching Philly and Atlanta is within range of catching them, whats that say about the realistic chances?
The Phillies are a much stronger team than the Braves. We can catch the Braves because they are much weaker than the Phillies are. They aren’t on the same level as the Phillies.
Vinny: Why not? I don’t really understand why we as a fan base are creating this false identity for the Braves as though they aren’t that good.
For starters, they made the playoffs last year… remember?
Secondly, the Phillies starting staff is flashy, no doubt about it. But Jurrjens-Hudson-Hanson-Lowe-Beachy is a dang fine starting rotation and I’ll take the Braves bullpen in a NY minute over Philly.
Is the Braves offense on the weaker side? Yes. But it’s not as though Heyward, Freeman, McCann, Chipper and maybe Uggla are slouches.
To say you can’t catch the Phils but can catch the Braves is a statement I disagree with because I think the Braves can catch the Phils.
I don’t see why wanting to build a solid foundation for the future, both financially and talent-wise, is being labeled “waving a white flag.” Some met fans would have criticized Custer if he decided to wave a white flag. We are outnumbered, folks. Out-talented. We should recognize this and try to set ourselves up for the future. We are essentially talking about getting rid of players who will not be back next year, with the exception of KRod. And KRod and his Omar option have to go. A GM cannot sit there saying that just because we are not eliminated we have a chance. A field manager has to say that. The GM has to take a longer view. Do you really want your GM waving pom poms or do you want him to have a critical analysis capability?
Forget it, jdon. You are absolutely right, of course. But somewhere along the first half, the homers decided that being “honest and truthful” became being “negative.”
We aren’t “out-talented”. The Mets offense is a lot better than the Braves, we are even better than them WITHOUT two of our biggest power hitters. So when we get our guys back we are going to be much better.
And our pitching staff with Johan, can come close enough to the Braves to beat them because our offense is better.
We can build a solid foundation for the future without giving up on this season. Say if we do trade Beltran, you think the prospect we get is going to be any good? he’ll most likley suck, and never do anything. And NOBODY is going to give you ANYTHING valuable for K-rod.
And if you trade Reyes, you’ll get a good prospect for sure, but the chances of the prospect ever matching, or even coming close to the production Reyes gives you, is SO slim. You care so much about talent right? So guess what will happen if you trade Reyes? In the future the team is going to be LESS talented because that prospect is never going to be as good as Reyes….not even close.
So if we have it your way, we’ll give up on this year, and have LESS talent in the future.
First of all. In fairness, you have absolutely NO idea what to expect from Johan Santana in 2011. So statements like “And our pitching staff with Johan, can come close enough to the Braves to beat them because our offense is better.” are null and void in my view.
Secondly.
Jurrjens is better than Santana. Hudson is better than Pelfrey. Hanson is better than Niese. Lowe is better than Dickey and Beachy is better than Gee or Cap.
Are they close? Sure. But as a collective unit, the Braves have 1 of the best pitching staff’s in the sport.
When you pair that with the fact they have O’Flaherty, Venters, Sherrill, Linebrink and Kimbrel? Heck the Braves have 4 relievers who are better than the Mets BEST reliever.
The fact Atlanta scores 3.9 runs a game and the Mets score 4.3 runs a game doesn’t matter. Because the Braves aren’t giving up leads late in games. And they most likely won’t.
Is it worth stopping watching SNY? No of course not. I watch every game, I just am not going to sit here and say keeping Beltran because the minor leaguer we may get back might not be worth it… that does me no good. He’s a lame duck outfielder.
Keeping K-Rod because MAYBE the Mets can compete if:
Santana comes back and is ready to be a #1 right away
Wright’s back issue is resolved
Ike’s foot heals perfectly
Reyes never gets hurt again
Is fine to think and hope for. But it’s not enough of a reason to risk the future of the franchise.
If you trade K-Rod today because that money allows you to offer Reyes more $ would you do it?
I’m sorry if thinking about the future and not wanting to play year after year where we have to focus on “ya gotta believe” to get us through the season is something I’m not into anymore. I’m tired of saying we have a chance “if”
Yes we have a chance if the Braves suddenly can’t win 90+ games. If the Cardinals and Brewers both falter. If the Diamondbacks run out of steam. If the Reds or Rockies don’t have another late season surge. If Johan is healthy. If Wright is healthy. If Ike returns. If If If If If
First of all, since when is not trading your star players “risking the future”? That’s not risking your future.
Your not being objective at all. Lowe is better than Dickey? Dickey has a lower ERA and WHIP the last two years than lowe.
Sherill is better than every RP we have? You do realize he had a 6.69 ERA last year? and only one more K than BB’s?
Linebrick had a 4.53 ERA and 1.49 WHIP the last two years, how is THAT better than every RP we have? That’s right, it’s not.
The Braves bullpen is overrated, It’s good, but lets not make it to be something that it’s not.
Your making it too complicated when it’s really not. We are playing good baseball WITHOUT our two biggest power hitters and our ACE, so is SO IMPOSSIBLE that we we get our guys back that we can’t do BETTER? If we start playing better baseball, we can’t catch them? We have alot of games left against the Braves, so the fact that we are 7.5 back doesn’t bother me at all.
As for the other teams, if we keep winning it’s not gonna matter what they do……We don’t need any help, as long as we keep winning games and the rest will take care of itself.
“Tell me what keeping KRod and Beltran do for the future of the organization.”
Tell me how it hurts the future keeping them. We’ll get an average prospect for Beltran, and nothing for k-rod. Is getting an average prospect and nothing, worth enough to give up on this season?
Dickey is a better pitcher than Lowe right now. Lowe isn’t very good, with ATL he has a 4.33 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP…He’s not good. And I somehow lost the argument by saying Dickey is better than Lowe? Yeah, ok……
My point is with Sherill, is that you used him to say how great the Braves bullpen is, while he was AWFUL last year, he was TERRIBLE.
“You realize that’s an ERA just under 2.00 for 5 bullpen arms *combined*!”
Do you really think they will keep that up? It would be almost impossible for them to keep that up a full season. They aren’t going to be as good in the 2nd half….just wait, you will see.
“At what point do you start to consider that being an 83 win team isn’t terrible, and that the realistic idea of being a 93 win team doesn’t exist?”
I’d say we are a 83 win team without Ike, Wright and Johan, but with them, we could be a 93 win team for sure.
And I am worrying about 2011, AND 2012, why can’t I do both? I’d have it much like we are this year.
C Thole, and a RH guy to platoon with him, 1B Ike, 2B Tejada/Turner/Murphy, SS Reyes, 3B Wright, LF Bay, CF Pagan, RF Probably Beltran….Rotation: Santana, Niese, Dickey, Gee, and Pelf…K-Rod closer, and Parnell/Beato for the 8th.
I think that team can win.
Vinny:
“First of all, since when is not trading your star players “risking the future”? That’s not risking your future.”
Tell me what keeping KRod and Beltran do for the future of the organization
“Your not being objective at all. Lowe is better than Dickey? Dickey has a lower ERA and WHIP the last two years than lowe.”
It is my belief that a pitcher like Lowe as your #4 is better to have than a knuckleballer with 1.5 years of “success” in his career. Am I saying stat to stat he’s better? No. I am saying when it comes down the stretch, if you’re looking at the #4 starters to prove your point, then you’ve already lost the debate.
“Sherill is better than every RP we have? You do realize he had a 6.69 ERA last year? and only one more K than BB’s?”
George Sherill is playing this year is he not? 36 games, 2.22 era. I’ll gladly take that over his 2010 season. Since this is 2011.
Regarding Linebrink, I named 5 Braves relievers and said they have 4 that are better than our best.
You said I said Linebrink was better, I never did.
“The Braves bullpen is overrated, It’s good, but lets not make it to be something that it’s not.”
Overrated compared to what? Those 5 games I named have 203.1 innings of work, given up 156 hits, 45 earned runs, 220 strikeouts and 71 walks. You realize that’s an ERA just under 2.00 for 5 bullpen arms *combined*!
At what point do you start to consider that being an 83 win team isn’t terrible, and that the realistic idea of being a 93 win team doesn’t exist? When do you want to start worrying about 2012? In the winter of 2011?
vinny B,
don’t bother, somehow this guy is fixated on atl and giving them props and all credit, yet don’t wanna give any due to the mets players and coach for sticking around, the braves will keep up doing it, yet the mets will fade, in 1 year heyward is a superstar and freeman a super stud, yet all mets rookies or young players are not good, reyes won’t keep this up but atl hitters will be better in the 2nd half, if that doesn’t sound like a guy who hates the mets i don’t know what is!!!
I like how people who want to fold and give up now think those of us who think we CAN win this year aren’t thinking about the future too.
I don’t know about the future yet because I don’t know how this season is going to unfold. I’m sure there are teams behind the Mets now that were predicted to finish in front of them at the beginning of the season. We have almost half a season left to make up 7.5 games. You DO NOT throw in the towel under those circumstances and especially when there is a possibility that the Mets may even get STRONGER in the next couple weeks when Ike, Reyes, & Davis come back. And Reyes should be back soon. What if part of the future is now? We have lots of kids helping keep us afloat and one of our new kids (Ike Davis) is hurt.
If you can guarantee that this “future” WILL be a can’t miss and we will have no injuries than sure, blow everything up for this season just because you’re not sure if the Mets can make it.
Is this now going to be a cycle? When you’re not sure blow it up?
He should not have to do that at the expense of a season in progress!
thats the problem that the Rebuilders seem to gloss over.
Sure if your season is lost then you do whatever it takes because the season is lost.
But if your season is not lost (and who says 7.5 back in the WC is a lost season. How many games behind the division were we in 69 and 73 when there was no WC to play for?)
The future is good to worry about but not at the expense of throwing a season in which your competitive away!
If you do that then there never will BE a future because you will always sacrifice the future you thought you were getting for more future.
Trading Beltran seems like a good move. But it IS giving up our biggest bat this season and one that has made us a competitive team.
And what your going to get back is not going to be better in the future than what you have now!
Which is really the point that I think is lost on most Met fans in regards to beltran and K-Rod.
They won’t catch them. the Phillies starting pitching is a lot better than the Braves…..Halladay and Lee are two of the best pitchers in the game….maybe THE BEST. the Braves best starter I’d say is Hanson, and I think he’s on the same level as Hamels, the phillies THIRD starter.
Plus their offense is stronger too. Howard, Utley, Rollins, Vicotrino, and ruiz is better than the braves.
And I think Madson/Bastardo/Lidge could match Kimberl/Venters.
Vinnie, I hate to piss in your coffee; but the Braves are closer to the Phiiles than we are to the Braves. How many years of rehab do u require to learn “on paper” means squat; keep it “on grass” not the smoking kind; but the mowing kind is ALL that matters so your repetitive is this bertter than that is rediculous. BTW contrary to your philosophical question Re Wright,Davis & Santana pointing to Johan as the “unknown” quantity of quality.
Be advised, I abjectly differ inasmuch as I look at THOSE 3 RETURNEES & EVALUATE Santana’s as the most predictable @ being less than he WAS aka,(suprisingly less than paid for) No pitcher has ever returned from this extensive a shoulder surgery better than when he left. Wang was NOT a socalled power pitcher; but a sinker groundball(Lowe type) & he’s miseed nearly 3 Seasons in recovery, just now being considered worthy of activation by Gnats.
Berfore this procedure Santana came up short innumerable times when matched against the Halladays,Sabbathias,Johnsons law of averages should dictate at least a record equal to his Ace V. Ace esp facing ATL,PHL or NYY. as he’s faltered(been owned by Braves from day 1 & suffered his two most humiliating defeats from PHL & NYY. Somehow, after only 1 yr, he’ll be better? (BTW THIS LACK OF RUN SUPPORT ARGUEMENT IS BOGUS FOR ACE V.ACE MATCHUPS AS NO ACE CAN COUNT UPON GETTING RUNS SCORED AGAINST THEIR OPPOSITE ACE; BUT TRUE DOMINANT ACES TYPICALLY FIND A WAY TO OUT ZERO THEIR OPPONENTS SEE SEAVER Vs CARLTON,GIBSON,JENKINS,DRYSDALE RECORD) I doubt Johan will exceed the SP he depositioned by returning be it Dickey,Gee,Capuano or Niese. Let’s not consider his return as a tremendous boost in results, at least not before he’s faced Adsvanced-A level hitters awed by his presence. At least Wright & Davis won’t be dealing with surgical scar tissue
Nuff said
Neither was 15-1/2 games out in August in 1969…………….
Thanks for proving my point about being negative and pessimistic
When did realistic become negative and pessimistic. Negative and pessimistic would be if I don’t enjoy the fact the Mets games are watchable. I do.
I’m just not being fooled and setting myself up for something that won’t happen. This franchise is in trouble, 2011 wildcard doesn’t fix it and won’t happen. Doesn’t mean I’m negative.
You do realize that we have been playing most of the year without two of our biggest power hitters and our ACE pitcher? And we should be getting them back soon?
We are NOT playing at full strength right now and we are still hanging around….There’s still plenty of games left, and plenty of games left against the braves too, so when we get our guys back, we are going to have plenty of time to catch them.
I believe our team at full strength is good enough to make the playoffs.
Thanks Vinny. I’m glad I’m not alone.
No, in my heart I dont think we can. However, unlike 2009 or 2010, I’m not ready to give up. Lets play the rest of the season and see what happens.
As you point out, we’re still in this thing and that’s WITHOUT DW, Ike and Johan.
Yes, but if those guys HAD been here, the Mets wouldn’t have had the contributions of Gee, Capuano, Tejada and Turner. So if it’s not a wash, because the three kids have played well above their heads, then MAYBE the Mets are two or three games better.
The Braves and the Philles are significantly better than the Mets. It’s the truth.
No it’s not the truth. the Phillies are but not the Braves.
The mets lineup has the Braves beat in evey major offense stat except for HR’s, and that’s without two of our biggest hitters.
And I think with Santana the Mets pitching staff, while not as good, could come close enough to the Braves to beat them because our offense is alot better.
And there’s no way that Tejada and Turner have played them same as Wright and Davis would have……no way. They have been nice, sure, but they didn’t give the Mets the type of power that Davis and Wright would have.
I know you don’t like the Braves, but you’re assessment of their team is entirely inaccurate. So the Mets have some higher rate stats. Did you forget about pitching and defense? The Mets defense is terrible and the Braves pitching is probably the best in the league 1-12.
the Mets defense isn’t “terrible”. If it has been it’s because we have a lot of guys playing out of position because of injuries.
My assessment of the Braves is entirely inaccurate? How so? By saying our lineup when healthy is a lot better? Heck, our lineup is a lot better NOW, and we are NOT healthy.
Sure the Braves pitching is good, but when we get our ACE back, are they going to be THAT much better to make up for how much better our linup is? Our pitchers started off slow, but they have been giving us good starts almost every night, and are a big reason why we are still hanging around. this is also a rotation that was really good last year, so they can keep it up.
I think if you look at this team objectively(that’s they key), and at full strength(also very important), we have a shot at beating the Braves for the wild card.
So are you saying
Johan-Pelf-Niese-Dickey-Gee/Cap is as good as Jurrjens-Hudson-Hanson-Lowe-Beachy?
take out pelf, and our staff can compete with them, is their bullpen that is way better than anyone’s in the league.. imo
No, I’m saying they can come close enough to them to beat them because our lineup is better.
you think Mccan-Heyward-Uggla-Freeman is as good as Reyes-Beltran-Wright-Davis?
…and the Orioles were significantly better in 69…and the Reds were significantly better in 73.
All I’m saying is just get into the post-season and lets see what happens.
Last year, plenty of teams were “better” then the Giants, too
TieDye, you’re preaching to the MMO kiddie corps. They wouldnt know about such things as 69 and 73 when fans were fans.
Once you’re in the playoffs, anything can happen. But getting to the playoffs is predicated on skill, talent and ability, not luck.
The Mets can beat anyone in a seven-game series. Anyone can beat anyone in a seven-game series. Over 162 games, though, the best, most talented teams prevail. And the Mets aren’t there yet. Sorry if that offends you.
Jessep – I agree with 99.9% of everything you say and normally I am on the same page with you. However, saying you are a realist is just an arrogant way of saying “My opinion is better then yours (obligatory IMO)
We are fans first, and as fans our job is to Believe, sure there are always some doubts, especially if you do homework of the other teams, but the bottom line, in my heart no matter what the odds are, I BELIEVE, that is why I am a fan, that is the essence of being a fan.
Call me naive, but I’ve never given up on this team, ever. More times then none I’ve been proven wrong, but I’ll do it again and again. One of these days, I’m going to be right!
Perhaps some call it stupidity, some call it sadistic, but this is team I’ve chosen and will always get behind, and I’m not new to this, I was at the game when Willie Mays hit his last career home run (yeah I’m showing my age).
Ya Gotta Believe!
Jessep – I agree with 99.9% of everything you say and normally I am on the same page with you. However, saying you are a realist is just an arrogant way of saying “My opinion is better then yours”
welcome to MMO kay, if you haven’t notice this man have been doing this for as long as i remember, he calls ppl uneducated if they don’t agree with his comments, since he is so tough and arrogant i invited him to a game so we can see each other face to face and discuss mets as friends do.. the invitation is still on, august 6th or 7th against the team he’s slobbin the atlanta braves, god forbig this man gives credit to the mets or any player on the mets not named david wright, but other teams and players, he loves with passion because to quote him “he’s a realist, not just a fan”. yet had the nerve to say tulowitzi is the best SS in the game..
No need to welcome me, been here a long time, been insulted one time too many so I’ve been picking and very carefully choosing when I post.
I’ve read many of your crazy posts too, so I’d say you should move out of your glass house. My post was not for one you to jump on to continue your own hatred towards Jessep. It was about being a fan first, which I think gets forgotten on blogs. People prefer to shove their thoughts down everyone’s throats instead of looking at the big picture of being a Mets fan. We have lost sight on posing opinions and different thoughts, and in the process don’t know how to articulate our passion instead turning it into down right obnoxious, rude and insulting words towards each other, even though we claim to be fans of the same team.
It’s about the TEAM, that’s why I like the Mets, not because of ONE player or another……
Ya Gotta Believe.
kay, i believe, i believe this man has a vendetta against ALL mets, and it got me wondering why the hatred towards this mets, then i realize he wanted the mets to fail so badly, i wonder why, i came up with the theory that maybe because wright wasnt there he wanted the mets to tank it like they did in 2009 with reyes and beltran hurt, but it didn’t happen, so he comes up with any excuse to bash this mets, from reyes is doing this because of a contract year, to the mets future sucks as we have no player that will be good from the omar adm. he’s waiting on nimmo to come up and give us what we need.. that’s what depodesta and co are/were hoping for once drafted.. many ppl know this man is a big time downer this year for the mets, since his boy is not in the lineup he wants the mets to lose so wright can be relevant again
Do you ever reread what you write before you hit the send button? What you complain about Jessep for doing, you do the same thing only change the name to Wright. You don’t actually read what he is writing but are quick to post your reply that many times, makes no sense. Sorry, but you’re a hippocrate, you don’t like what he writes, fine, but don’t write the same thing about a different player and think what you are saying is anything new.
Where did he ever say Wright was his boy, when did anyone say that? I know I’ve never said it, but the reason why I haven’t been around much, blatant sexist remarks and assumptions will do that.
This is a hobby, not life, and I know the difference, wish some others would learn it.
“Ya Gotta Believe’ is our mantra. But is it just something we regurgitate or is it something we really do believe? I still believe.
I still believe! I made this exact point in the chatroom the other day. New fangled fans dont believe, it’s too illogical for them. Good post,
Thanks Maniac.
Imagine if this site was around back in 1986 how much negativity there would have been after we lost the opener of the LCS to Mike Scott—or the first 2 to Boston?!
No Surrender, No Retreat.
Great article Tie Dyed,
The negativity, the trade talk, and this stuff about giving up makes me SICK to my stomach. I’m glad you brought up 1973 because weren’t we a lot of games out this time in 1969? And Vinny B is right, yes the Phillies are much better but no way are the Braves that much better than the Mets.
We’ve stayed 7.5 out without most of our lineup out so far and I don’t think the Braves are gonna stay this hot. Yes the Braves have better pitching but our hitting is MUCH better than the Braves it’s not even close so our pitchers can hold them down just the same their pitchers may be able to hold down our lineup which is better NOW let alone when the other guys get back. I guess the Phillies can come back from 7 games in 17 days but this Mets team cannot overcome 7.5 games in about 3 months against this unbelievable and unreachable AtL team? Yeah right.
All these people saying we can’t do or forget it or think about the future and blow this up make me sick and they would be the WORST type of people that I would want on my team or working with me. A lot things happen by believing they can to begin with and the Mets have the talent to do it too.
So now what is it? We ONLY think we have a chance to make it when we are sure that we DO have a better team than the other guys? So now it’s ONLY when we absolutely KNOW we can do it? Boy I sure wish life was that easy because than it would make my decision making easier when I know ahead of time that my decisions will work out. So if Sandy and all these STUPID negative nellies were around in 1973 and 1969 we break up the teams by mid-season because it LOOKS LIKE WE MAY NOT MAKE IT? So now even in the future when it looks like WE MAY NOT MAKE IT we blow things up? Is this the way it’s gonna be now? No more fantastic sports stories will be written because now in the future we must ALWAYS have teams that by mid-season we are 100% sure can make it. So that’s the way these people want it? Good for them because more often than not it’s NOT gonna be like that.
How ridiculous is that attitude and it completely flies in the face of what competition is all about.
Thanks Bayonne.
If Tug was alive and pitching today, his motto would be, ‘Ya Gotta (Kinda) Believe.’
We need some black cats walking in front of the Braves and Philthies dugouts..(ok now I’m showing MY age)
i notice tatthe;eaderof the pack of the “i want the mets to lose club,” namely the sandy regurgitator donal, better known as donutz or parrot isn/t here on this post since Sandy can’t officially admit he doesn’t care if the Mets win or not. Donal and Sandy must hate Collins for keeping the Mets from drowning.
You know what I notice? A LOSER who doesn’t know when he’s not welcome here. Really? ANOTHER stupid name? Were you dreaming about donal again and had to rant about him at 5 in the morning? GET. A. LIFE.
While this posting is certainly out of context; however, Tie’s referring tio Santana’s return triggered my thoughts/concern. We all know that Santana’s effectivenmess upon returning is the GREAT CRAP SHOOT of 2011.
we’ve no clue as to his ability to get outs consistantly or how long he’ll last in games(pitchcount?) is virtually unchartered waters; assuming he comes back to free his mind of selfdoubts; I can’t help; but fear our seeing much,much more of DJ “Carapo” & Manny” I. Accost U” than we’d ever desire to see if only to prevent the arms of our top relievers from unhinging. As an alternative, I was creatively exploring the outer edges of “:the box” and discovered a unique concept of choosing a “shadow SP” like, say Cahoon, to promote for a test drive as Santana’s personally assigned longman, this would keep the dregs of our pen hidden from over viewing and our frontliner relievers more refreshed. It also allows us to “testdrive” a 6th SP without disrupting any roration schedules as both Santana & the shadow share the same assignment day. As it would be created as a planned exercise, the shadow’s routine can mimic a SP usual routine vis-a-vis warmups in everyway; but longtoss, the motion of which can be simulated by whiffleball usage in the pen confines.
I ask u, is this feasible or did someone alter my medication?
My sport is golf and when I play, my motto is “play for today “- . Actually this motto works for most sports and it surely works for baseball. And, of course, in Tug’s name “You Gotta Believe”. God Bless You, Tug – it works.
I should just make this clear, nobody is saying that the Braves are a “bad” team. I’m just saying, that when we are at full strength, are they BETTER than us? I think it’s very close, we have the better lineup, they have better pitching – It’s not like their so much better than us that we have no chance.
that’s all i’m saying.
“I’m just saying, that when we are at full strength, are they BETTER than us?”
Yes. Yes they are.
Specifically when you cannot even guarantee me what the Mets are “at full strength”
You have no clue what Johan will be. You have no clue when Ike will return. Wright wasn’t tearing the cover off the ball, how will he heal?
Their starting staff and bullpen is so far better plus McCann, Heyward, Chipper, Freeman and Uggla are no slouches. Uggla’s having a terrible year but you can’t tell me he’s not a good slugger.
It’s awesome wanting success without taking risks, right? Especially when it’s NOT clear cut if the Braves are that much better or what they will do either, right? Or when our lineup IS better than theirs.
So let’s blow things up from now on when we’re not “SURE”
Sounds like someone who is a very weak competitor to me…and yes i do think about the future too.
Oh and Bay’s having a terrible year too but you watch him every day. Do you watch Uggla every day? And do you know Chipper is out for maybe a month or more?
And that the Mets team BA is about 30 points or so higher than the Braves and that we lead in stolen bases and the Braves are last?
And the Royals team batting average is better than the Mets. Does that mean KC is better than the Mets now? BTW KC also has more steals than the Mets.
Look out world, KC’s coming for the wildcard in the AL!
This is an Atlanta team that oh by the way won 91 games last year and won the wildcard. We’re not talking about a team we’re uncertain if they are for real.
The Braves are 54-38 me saying they are better than the Mets is a true statement. Denying it is just living life with blinders on.
By the way, the Braves team batting average in 2010 was .258 and they finished 3rd from last in stolen bases, you know who finished last in SB last year? San Francisco.
You wanna tell me the Mets will be so much better when Wright, Ike and Johan come back. Will Atlanta always be a .237 hitting team?
How come the same rules don’t apply?
The bottom line is the Braves have one of the best starting staffs and easily one of the best bullpens in the entire sport. It got them to 91 wins last year and this year it has them on pace for 95 wins.
The Mets won’t top that unless they get a LOT of help in regards to other teams getting slammed with injuries. But you don’t manage a team on “well maybe they will suffer injuries”
Okay I get it…so it LOOKS like we may not win it even though we have talented players coming back off the DL soon.
It LOOKS like we won’t win it so let’s give up now. Gotcha.
The new philosophy – If we’re not SURE we can compete, then don’t
Wonderful.
bayonne, don’t even bother with that poser. he’s giving NO explanation as to why freeman and heyward will be superstar and the mets young players are not good enough??
“The Braves are 54-38 me saying they are better than the Mets is a true statement.”
Maybe if we had Ike, Wright, and Davis playing all year, we would have around the same record? I mean, you do realize that this team hasn’t been playing at full strength?
You know that right?
I mean Ike wright and Santana.
But we didn’t. And Santana most likely won’t be an ace when he returns. We also have no idea what we’ll get out of Wright and Davis.
And the Braves aren’t the only team in front of us in the Wild Card race. Amazing how that fact keeps getting glossed over.
Of course we didn’t, which is my point. And since all signs point to them coming back, we are going to be at full strength soon.
So when we are healthy, I think we come close to the Braves.
Ike and Wright should play like they normally would. If they don’t, then that will be surprise. Santana is the one we don’t know about…….
Don’t worry about the other teams, as long as we keep winning, what they do isn’t going to matter. they aren’t that good anyway. The Braves are a good team, so that’s why we are focused on them.
“Don’t worry about the other teams, as long as we keep winning, what they do isn’t going to matter. they aren’t that good anyway.”
And yet, we are still behind them. and a half game ahead of the Nats.
…..because we aren’t healthy.
And St Louis was?
Our guys have been out alot longer than their guys. Ike and Wright have both played less than 40 games, while Holiday and Pujols have played 67 and 78 games.
about 2 weeks ago only 2 teams were ahead of us outside of ATL, This week it’s 5 or, maybe next week it’s back to 6 and then a couple days after that it could be one.
Actually right now we are 2.5 out of second place for Wild Card so in other words we are with 2.5 games of having NOBODY but ATL in front of us. That can be made up in a couple days. IT changes day to day.
BUt I don’t expect anything less than the worst case scenario response from this guy as if we don’t already know it.
You don’t know that. Nor do you know if Johan will ever be “full strength”
What was the Mets record when Ike and Wright left?
Why am I to assume it’d be any different because Johan pitches every 5th day? Because he’s been a consistent 20 game winner for NY?
You also don’t know if Johan Santana can come back in September, make 9 starts or so and get us 5-7 wins. Maybe that’s what will give is 85-90 wins.
So much can happen between now and then but according to you and people who think like you everything is going to stay EXACTLY the same as it is now….in July, despite the Mets getting players back soon, despite Chipper Jones being out a month or longer.
The Braves are on their hottest streak and will stay that way right? But the Mets who have been 10 games over since April 21 or 20 won’t get better. That sample size is not good enough AND with most of it not being at full strength. That’d doesn’t count, right?
yeah okay
Bayonne, I thoughy u promised to lay off those hallucinagins?
5 or 7 out of 9? Santana couldn’t be counted on for that @ anytime donning blue & orange!
5 0f 9 =56%
7 of 9 =78%
actuals
’08 16 of 34 (47%)
’09 13 of 25 (52%)
’10 11 of 29 (38%)
tot 40 of 88 (45%)
I’ve been saying for months now, Santana as our ACE is a concept akin to admiring the Emperor’s new duds & I’m the kid laughing the Emperor’s stone cold NAKED as the day he was born.
Whether it’s age or injury related Santana, to me, has been a gross disappointment especially against our most critical rivals(ATL,PHL,NYY)
I PRAY HE COMES BACK AS IF FROM LORDES, REBORN AS A 27 YR OLD STUD ACE SO AS TO IMPROVE OUR CHANCES OF DEALING HIS $25M ODEOUS CONTRACT TO SOME OTHER ROSEY BESPECTACLED FRANCHISE. FOR WHAT HE’S PRODUCED HAS NOT WARRANTED A 25%+ SHARE OF TOTAL PAYROLL WE REQUIRE 4 ACCOMPANYING SPs HIGHER IN QUALITY THAN MINIMUM WAGE WILL GARNER.
IF PAYROLL IS CUT TO 100M, U CAN’T BUILD ANYTHING COMPETITIVE SPLITTING 75M AMONGST 39 PLAYERS CAN U SAY FLORIDA PAYSCALE? NB FL HAS ZERO STATE/LOCAL INCOME TAXES AFTER TAXES OUR GUYS WILL QUALIFY FOR FOODSTAMPS(lol).
THANK GOD, THEY JETTISONED K-ROD’S 17.5 OR THAT WOULD’VE BEEN 57.5m AMONGST 38 PLAYERS IT GETS WORSE AFTER SUBTRACTING BAY & WRIGHT @ 31M FOR 2 PLAYERS OR 26.5M TO SIGN REYES & STILL PAY 35 OTHER SALARIES.
CAPEESH?
BTW, THERE’S STILL NO GUARANTEE SANTANA EVER WINS ANOTHER GAME THOUGH HE’S STILL GUARANTEED THAT 25M PER UNTIL ’13.
how do u say “WORST DEAL IN FRANCHISE HISTORY”? AND TO THINK JEFF, HIMSELF IRONED IT OUT, WONDER HOW THANKSGIVING @ PAPA FRED’S HOUSE IS? HE SHOULD SPEND ETERNITY SITTING BETWEEN FRED & SAUL’S KVETCHING!
WOW… I don’t agree with Alex much, but it’s pretty clear you are no Mets fan, Jessep. Why don’t you just accept the fact that we’re on to you and go to the Bronx where you belong.
thanks mark, people are starting to see my point, this man COMPLAINS about anything the mets do, yet praise other teams for doing the same thing the mets are doing.. yet he claims he’s better than us and more educated…
i am glad people are starting to see a trend here of him being what i call him before many times..
haha riiiight. Because I say the Braves are better than the Mets that means I hate the Mets. Riiiight
is not saying that, is the way YOU gush about the braves like they’re some sort of jauggernaut, they got good pitching yes and better bullpen than us, but to say they’re way better than us when the schedule has favored them majority over us and havent had as many injuries as we have is just ridiculous statement!!! look at the whole body of work, while we play texas, detroit and yankees they play seattle, baltimore and colorado without cargo and tulo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
again, they got young talent just like us, yet we have no future and they will content for years to come to quote you!!!!!
Why does saying another team is better mean I hate the Mets?
The Mets offense is so far better plus Niese, Dickey, Gee, Capuano, K-rod, Izzy, Beato, and Santana are no slouches.
vinnyB, check and see his first half prediction and understand this man wants nothing to do with the mets and don’t wanna give them any props!!!!
haha yeah check them. Because it’s soooo ridiculous for my 1st half MVP to be a) on playoff team b) lead the league in ops c) lead in hr d) top 5 in rbi
Man what was I thinking! Being a good player on a team 1 over .500 is way more valuable than being a virtual replacement for Pujols!
Fact: If Albert Pujols had Berkman’s exact stats, he’d be MVP
I would not trade Beltran for trash but I would trade KRod for trash. KRod just has to go. That option will not stand. If we pay Beltran’s contract, i do not see why we cannot get a decent return. These teams are contenders who feel they need this trade to get over the top. They will pay something mroe than trash. As for our team being “no slouches,” they are only 46-45. If my GNM believed thata team 7.5 games out of the WC that had played over its head and trailed 4 or 5 other teams was “in it”, I would probably fire him.
if we had Davis and Wright here all season would our record be better than 46-45?
It sure would.
They are coming back, so when they get back, we should be playing OVER .500, and then we’ll have a shot at catching the Braves
Remember when Beltran came back after the All Star break. We had Wright and Davis then. We had a winning record. The team tanked. Just because someone is coming back does not mean instant success.
sure, completely ignore that his team has been 10 games over .500 since April 20 or 21.
If my GM wanted to “blow everything up” with this team being 10 games over since end of April with the middle of the order and leadoff guy coming back soon I would fire him for sure.
Who said anything about “blowing it up?” I never heard anyone say anything about a firesale.
And also, not to pee in your Cheerios, but 10 games over .500 over a full season is 86 wins, and 88 wins is the fewest wins ever to take an NL Wild Card. 89 wins took it once, and that’s the only two occasions fewer than 90 wins won it. So that 10 games over .500 is still a bit short when you consider the strong league this season.
yep that’s what the “numbers” say
What numbers? You mean win total? I guess it’s a number. You’re so lost.
This guy never hesitates to tell EVERYONE that the Mets are X games over .500 since whenever, but when I mention that X amount of games over .500 never, ever won a Wild Card, it’s just some evil numbers talk. He couldn’t be any more out of touch.
Don’t worry he also fails to acknowledge that since April 20th the Braves are better than the Mets yet the Braves are the ones that will fall not the Mets.
There’s being a fan. And there’s living in a dream world.
It’s also ridiculous that to these blind fools the season started with Game 19. Like what happened the previous 18 games has no bearing on the standings. Even though the Mets STILL aren’t quite good enough even if the season HAD started with Game 19.
well we all know that the way things are in the middle of the year is the way they always end up being, right?
Blind fools?
Your the one that doesn’t see the whole picture. The Mets have a WINNING record WITHOUT two of their biggest power hitters AND their ACE.
That’s pretty good if you ask me….and we should get them back. So if we are winning without them, we will do even better with them.
That’s what you don’t see.
Again, the Mets weren’t playing 100% during that time frame.
That’s the point that everyone is forgetting.
I mean they weren’t playing 100% HEALTHY.
How many games over .500 have the Braves been since April 20th Bayonne?
How come that doesn’t count?
Dealing Beltran and KRod is not blowing it up. Would I like to see this franchise start over? Yes. But they aren’t going to. They won’t trade Reyes. He may walk, but they aren’t trading him.
Fan is an abbreviation of the word “fanatic.” You can not blame people for being excitable about their team. I am much more unreasonable about the Jets than I am the mets. Why? Who knows? Maybe because the Jets are surging and the mets and Omar have worn me to the nubs. I have been talking this team down for the past three years. But I am optimistic at last. I may sound negative but I feel good about our future. They finally have some reasonable people running the team. That is what I want. Reasonable. You want to scratch and claw your way into early September? Why? This is the time to use your assets and build something sound. I just do not understand how someone can want their GM to think like a fan. I dont come on blogs to wave pom poms. I come on to exchange ideas, and try to think like a manager or a GM. If I want to wave pom poms I sit in the third row and scream.
And I am of the idea that the Mets are REALLY still in it. For real. Sometimes you do have to scratch and claw your way into September. You want it easy right? You want no-risk success? You want to be SURE that the team will make it right?
Hopefully, if the future is as bright as you think it could be under this new regime and we won’t have to fight for any titles. It will come easily and we’ll never ever have to make tough decisions in the middle of the season. And if we do, then just blow it up because we’re not guaranteed to make it.
Nonsense. I have been a met fan since 1962. Easy has nothing to do with it and it never has for the mets. What I meant by scratching and clawing into September was that they would not be good enough to get to October once again. And no, there are no guarantees. It is a judgment call. I like reason to rule where judgment is needed. This is a likable, but not quite good enough team.
I have to see them at full strength for awhile before I come to the conclusion they’re not good enough. Right now is not full strength, and it hasn’t been for awhile.
oh and the last time the Mets were at full strength for any significant period of time was in 2008. People tend to forget that or WANT to forget that.