I guess they want Omar to gave gotten a .300 30HR bat off the bench.

El Duque was 18-12 in with a 3.88 ERA with 240k’s in 260 innings 1.19 WHIP – trading Julio for that is a great trade.

It wasn’t just a “few wins” Maine and Perez had – They combined to win 57 games for the Mets from 06-08, the way the pitched those years had more impact to the team than the way the pitched the final two seasons – They were very good from 06-08.

“Luck. The fact that we had to rely on someone like Dickey (a journey man with a bad elbow who was trying to learn the kuckleball so we got him cheap) is a bad sign itself.”

That’s just ridiculous. If we are going by “luck” then I can say Omar was “unlucky” with Perez because NOBODY could have expected him to fall apart the way he did – You could have predicted him to not do that good, but nobody saw THAT coming.S o if he was Lucky with Dickey, then he was unlucky with Perez.

“Ya, it was really great how the Red Sox and Yankees wouldn’t pony up for Beltran, so he fell into Omar’s lap, where he was misused and insulted almost upon arrival.”

What does this matter? Has Beltran produced in a Mets uniform? The answer to the question is yes, so it’s a good signing, none of that other stuff matters. And he was “misused”? how so?

“Why didn’t they sign him the year before?”

Umm, who cares WHEN they got him? In three years he hit 100 HR’s and we traded Jacbos for him – that’s a great trade.

“And saves are a useless stat. Besides, if Omar had given Heath Bell away for a bag of balls, he wouldn’t have needed to sign a 34 year old pitcher with elbow problems for big $$.”

Fine. Use whatever stat you want for Wagner – He pitched good. And yes, Bell was probably the worst move he made – Bell was traded after we signed Wagner, so your wrong by saying if we never traded Bell we wouldn’t have needed wagner because wagner was already here!

“1 play off run and 2 injury filled seasons because he relied on injury prone players. Not the worse GM in game, but he failed to live up to expectations he himself set.”

4 winning seasons out of 6, the only two losing ones we were killed by injuries, and the biggest ones were to reyes and Beltran who were not considered injury prone to start the 2009 season.

I think 09 was too much for any GM to overcome, that was the worst injury list in sport history.

I’m more upset what he didn’t do when we were in it in 07 and 08. Nothing at the trade deadline, and the only reason he did anything in 06 was because Sanchez went down.

For the same reason no one talks about the good parts in The Phantom Menace.

“Trading for el duque, Maine, and Perez, didn’t impact the team from 06-08? How many games would we win those years without them? They all had winning records(from06-08) and had ERA’s under 4.”

I’m meh on El Duque, but yes, Maine and Perez contributed to their success at the time. What followed, though, over shadows the few wins.

“R.A Dickey and Angel Pagan aren’t impacting the team now?”

Luck. The fact that we had to rely on someone like Dickey (a journey man with a bad elbow who was trying to learn the kuckleball so we got him cheap) is a bad sign itself.

“Carlos Delgado hit 104 HR’s – that wasn’t a great trade?”

Why didn’t they sign him the year before? Why didn’t they prepare for the imminent decline of their 34 year old power hitter with chronic back problems? Did they really think he was a long term solution?

“Even though we spent a lot Carlos Beltran and Billy Wagner, they were good signing – Wagner saved 101 games, Beltran hit .280 and 144HR’s.”

Ya, it was really great how the Red Sox and Yankees wouldn’t pony up for Beltran, so he fell into Omar’s lap, where he was misused and insulted almost upon arrival.

And saves are a useless stat. Besides, if Omar had given Heath Bell away for a bag of balls, he wouldn’t have needed to sign a 34 year old pitcher with elbow problems for big $$.

“t agee makes Omar sound like the worst GM in the game, while the truth is Omar had 4 winning seasons in 6 years, and in the only two losing seasons we were killed by injuries.”

1 play off run and 2 injury filled seasons because he relied on injury prone players. Not the worse GM in game, but he failed to live up to expectations he himself set.

Trading for el duque, Maine, and Perez, didn’t impact the team from 06-08? How many games would we win those years without them? They all had winning records(from06-08) and had ERA’s under 4.

R.A Dickey and Angel Pagan aren’t impacting the team now?

Carlos Delgado hit 104 HR’s – that wasn’t a great trade?

Even though we spent a lot Carlos Beltran and Billy Wagner, they were good signing – Wagner saved 101 games, Beltran hit .280 and 144HR’s.

I’d say those good moves far outweigh the bad contracts. Having a slugging 1Bman that hits over 100 Hr’s in three years impacts the team more than a bad contract to an old 2ndbaseman.

You’re missing a key fact in regards to El Duque.

Yes, the Mets acquired him for the 2006 season. That is a fact, and that was a fine trade except for the fact Duque got hurt right before the playoff games started. But ignoring that for a second

The Mets signed Duque to a 2 year, $12million deal AFTER the 2006 season when he got hurt right before the postseason.

Now, please share with the class how Duque did in 2007 and 2008 combined?

Signing a 40 year old pitcher to a 2 year deal worth $6mil per year was a mistake, specifically when he was entering the off-season with an injury.

“Please Don’t Delete My COMMENT MMO.”

— Why would they delete it? Because we disagree? The only time a comment is deleted or not posted is when it’s vulgar.

“Who else is it heavily influenced by? Even Terry Collins was hired by Omar Minaya, and Alderson thought so much of that hire he promoted him.”

— First, I’m not exactly ready to give Omar credit for hiring Collins. In 2010, it was clear to everybody that a lot of Minaya’s “power” was taken away from him, and Luis Aguayo who was an Omar guy was fired. Aguayo was one of the coaches brought up when Willie was fired… and then he was re-assigned to milb field coordinator so that Razor Shines could be with the big club. Aguayo was a Tony Bernazzard guy actually. So the franchise was ridding themselves of that dynamic, and you can certainly blame Omar for putting them in that spot.

Collins was not hired as Milb Field Coordinator to one day be the Manager in Omar’s eyes in my view. If Omar was going to name another Manager, I have little to no doubt he would have named Backman manager just to please fans.

“Everyone wanted Bay, I screamed for Matt Holliday, but the majority wanted Bay. Who knew he would hit six home runs in two years? Did you know that? El Duque for Jorge Julio was great trade even with the injury. What’s wrong with Frankie Rodriguez? You want Braden Looper back? Rod Barajas and his 700K contract was bad? I thought Steve Phillips signed Glavine? What’s the difference between Chan Ho Park and Blaine Boyer? What about R.A. Dickey was that signing okay? This looks like Monday Night Quarterbacking and classic nit-picking to me.”

— So here’s the problem. You start with “everyone wanted Bay” You also give yourself a pat on the back, as many critics do “well I said they should do this.” Matt Holliday signed for almost DOUBLE the amount of money that the Mets signed Bay for. Bay got 4 years, Holliday got 7. You didn’t scream for Holliday because you knew Bay would absolutely be terrible. You just maybe didn’t think he’d be great. You don’t know what Holliday would have done at Citi Field and without Pujols. So trying to act like the Mets would have been better off with Holliday than Bay is an argument not worth having.

The rest of your examples are laughable to me because you’re a perfect example of somebody who literally almost wet themselves with joy when Omar was fired and now you’re on here defending his every move?

“Minaya didn’t make too many trades, what players do you miss? Mike Carp? Kevin Mulder? Please elaborate which young players we traded for OLDER players that you miss.”

— Again as I said in comment above. When you focus your attention on signing 35 year old players, and focus little to no attention or care on draft picks you’d lose because you sign them and then little to no attention on developing a system that is deep… you fail as a GM. I didn’t say he “Traded” young players for old. I said his free agent signings halted him from doing anything significant with the farm system in terms of building depth.

“We did bring up young talent in 2009, the problem was that the injury replacements got injured too.”

Which “young” talent was that? Jeremy Reed? Wilson Valdez? Cory Sullivan? Anderson Hernandez? Angel Berroa? Omir Santos? Ramon Martinez? Just because somebody says we brought up young players as replacements… doesn’t make it true. Which young pitchers did they bring up to save the day? Elmer Dessens? Ken Takahashi? Tim Redding? Nelson Figueroa? Fernando Nieve, Brian Stokes?

The fact is in 2009, the Mets suffered an insane amount of injuries, agreed. But the problem was their replacement players were not young minor leaguers but guys filling AAA roster spots. For every Fernando Martinez or Josh Thole you mention for 2009, I can mention double in “veteran” minor leaguers getting the call up.

So please stop pretending the 2009 Mets had an influx of young talent who got their chance due to injury but then got injured themselves. It’s not true.

“I don’t believe ANYONE said Emaus was picked because of his OBP. He was picked 1. Because he put up big numbers in the thin air of Las Vegas in his ONLY good minor league season. 2. Because he had more walks than strikeouts.”

That’s actually not true. Your best friend Bayonne has said that before. And that’s a good enough reason to draft somebody with a Rule 5 pick. Why can’t you grasp the risk/reward of the Rule 5? The Mets had no sure thing 2B. It was a risk worth taking.

“7. What other aspects of Moneyball did Alderson use so far? Did he avoid drafting High School Pitchers like Beane tried to do?

Ummm did you pay attention to the draft? If you did and watched on ESPN, John Hart said well there’s your first reach of the draft when the Mets took their first pick. Then ESPN showed their ranking where it showed he was a mid-second rounder. They avoided the Big Bonus First Rounders like the plague.”

—- I think right around here is where you proved to me you either did not read Moneyball, or have poor comprehension skills. First, I like John Hart but I’ve also seen quotes comparing Nimmo to Jay Bruce. Second, avoiding a “big bonus first rounder” as you say, isn’t a Moneyball thing. In the book Moneyball, their 1st two picks were Nick Swisher and Joe Blanton……

“How do you know Minaya wouldn’t have cut them during the offseason. Jeff Wilpon himself said before Omar was fired he asked and was given permission to cut them if he wanted to. Passing off speculation as fact again?”

—- Why does it matter that he would have cut them? He didn’t cut Oliver when he should have. He lost his chance. You can’t tell me Omar would have released Perez when Perez was giving him every reason in the world to do it in 2010.

“Alderson had done nothing but sign a few bench jockeys, and did little to reinforce a team that wasn’t far from a contender. Even without any help from Alderson the team is resilient and battles hard and can stand toe to toe with any of the other teams in the NL. It would have benefited from even a little bit of help.”

—– Does Alderson dictate how much $ he has to spend? Was he supposed to take out a personal loan himself? How much more $ do you want the team to spend past $140+million to be a winner? Who should he have signed? You think it’s an accident he only spent $8million in the winter the Madoff scandal hit its peak? You’re acting like the financial struggles of the ownership don’t even matter when signing free agents. You think the Wilpon’s said “here’s $50million” and Sandy said “no thanks I just want 8″

Wilpon stated repeatedly that Alderson had Minaya money but yet needed $200m this May? Come on. Wilpon’s had to save face. You HONESTLY think Alderson had an open checkbook? When reports came out left and right this spring about the franchise bleeding cash and oh yeah, they needed to sell part of the team?

You’re dislike for Alderson is driven by 1 sentence in a book that you either didn’t read or didn’t understand. You’re blinded by the fact you cannot admit Omar messed up by over-spending and lack of attention to the depth of the farm system. Alderson is here to clean up a mess first, and then make things better. He inherited a team with bad contracts, no young superstar prospects and owners with serious financial problems… and you expected him to what?

Alderson inherited a team that needed: 2 starting pitchers, a catcher, a backup IF, a backup OF, 2-3 relievers, and maybe a 2B.

Explain to me how Alderson should have done that differently?

El duque actually supports my argument perfectly. It was a good move getting him, but it was a bad move signing him – That’s why I say he’s an average GM, he made some good moves, and then he made some bad moves.

but you guys only bring up the bad ones.

Pagan hit .306

Sheffield hit .276 10HR 43RBI in 100 games

Tatis hit .282

Nieve had an ERA under 3

Niese pitched good when he came up, but then got hurt.

Valdez wasn’t awful – .256 in 41 games.

Thole hit .300

Sounds pretty good to me.

What do you expect our backups to look like? they are backups! If they were any good they would be starting in the 1st place. Your going to do bad if your replacing GOOD everyday players with backups, even if they play as well as they did.

Even though the book on Omar will be open for another decade and he stands to be remembered in the future more for Flores than Wagner, Davis than Alou, Mejia than Castillo, Familla than Perez and Harvey than Bay it will not stop the revisionism and historical inaccuracies by his most faithful followers.

“Alderson had done nothing but sign a few bench jockeys, and did little to reinforce a team that wasn’t far from a contender. Even without any help from Alderson the team is resilient and battles hard and can stand toe to toe with any of the other teams in the NL. It would have benefited from even a little bit of help.”

I don’t believe we were as close as Maniac thinks and I don’t believe Alderson did nothing either.

But some of his good moves are viewed as bad when they actually good for whatever reason.

Like in this post, Jeesep makes it sound like El duque was a bad move when really, he was good for the Mets – 18-12 3.88 ERA 1.19 WHIP – how is trading Jorge Julio for him a bad move?

Eeven trading for Oliver Perez was a good move, signing him wasn’t of course, but the trade was good – He went 25-17 with an ERA of under 4, and 354K’s in 370 IP in 07 and 08, and almost pitched the Mets into the WS in 06 – I’d say that’s a good move, but signing him was awful, as we all know.

Maine was another good move, everyone forgets how he pitched 06-08 and just remember how he pitched the last two years – He was 31-23, ERA under 4, 1.26 WHIP, from 06-08.

And trading for Delgado too – He hit 104 HR’s for us.

t agee makes Omar sound like the worst GM in the game, while the truth is Omar had 4 winning seasons in 6 years, and in the only two losing seasons we were killed by injuries.

Yes Putz was a bad trade, but it’s not like Omar traded for some bum, Ok? he was a very good closer with Seattle, and he pitched really good last year, and again this year, as the dbacks closer.

He’s still a VERY good pitcher, we just got him at the wrong time, that’s all.

I’d say Omar had some bad luck with the injuries but he chose not to put guys on the DL. Sanchez was a great trade that he should have gotten more out of. Church and Schneider really let him down.

A team is so much more than just the starting eight and rotation and closer. The bench, backend of the pen and especially AAA depth has to be there to support a go for broke move like Putz, and K-Rod. Having some talented youth in AAA is vital for a run when you have so much age on your 25.

I can’t believe some people can blame 2009 on not having enough depth – No team can survie that amount of injuries, and if you look at it objectively our backups weren’t that bad – We had Pagan to backup Beltran(Pagan hit .306, that’s pretty good for a backup), when Delgado went down, we moved Murph to 1st – not a bad backup, and then we moved Sheffield to LF, who hit REALLY good for a backup. Cora was probably the only bad one – Eeven Fernando Tatis hit .282 that year – that’s not bad for a backup – Santos got a few big hits and was nice for a little while.

I don’t know what the people who say “depth” was the problem expect our backups to hit like – Most of them did good! Do they expect them to hit .300 30HR’s and drive in 100 runs?