20
2011
The Myths of Omar and Sandy
An article by 
From the day he was hired, to the day he was fired I was often called an “Omar apologist.” I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase before right? Basically from what I deducted from that was “not everything Omar does is garbage,” therefore I am apologizing for him.
Recently, I’ve seen a lot of negativity towards Sandy Alderson and his front office team. In all reality, from the day fans heard Alderson’s name was mentioned in a scary book called “Moneyball”, nothing Alderson could do would be good enough.
What I find odd is how several people including some in the media like to point to the 2011 Mets as being influenced heavily by Omar Minaya. Also, they use this as a way to downplay Alderson’s role with the franchise.
Several myths are in play here; let me try to touch on some of them.
Minaya wasn’t fired because guys like Justin Turner, Dillon Gee, and Daniel Murphy existed in his minor leagues. He was fired because targeting players like Moises Alou, Jason Bay, Rod Barajas, Frankie Rodriguez, El Duque, Guillermo Mota, Chan Ho Park, Tom Glavine halted them from building a deeper and young farm system.
Guys like Justin Turner are great finds (for now at least), but they aren’t difference makers. Minaya gave away young talent for older talent that didn’t make much of a difference when it came to making the Mets a contender.
I don’t think any GM in baseball will leave his job and not have players he drafted or acquired come up through the system. If that’s the case, you wonder why or how they got the job in the first place.
Minaya’s problem was simple, it was multi-tasking. He wasn’t able to focus on the big league club, while paying close attention to the farm system. When a team gets decimated by injuries, you should be able to bring young talent up to replace them.
You may not be as good, but having talent in the minor leagues (specifically pitchers), stops the 2007 or 2008 collapse by having fresh arms in the pen, and stops 2009 from being such a disaster of a season.
Would the Mets have made the playoffs in 2009 had young players come up to replace the injured? Not necessarily, but the Red Sox in 2010 lost Dice-K, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Beckett, Cameron, Lowell, Victor Martinez, Delcarmen, Varitek, Buchholz, and Youkilis to the Disabled List. Yet, they managed to win 89 Games?
How did they do that but the Mets have similar (possibly even, not as bad) luck in 2009 and only win 70 games? Franchise depth. The fact is, as a General Manager your job is to have depth within your franchise.
Your team cannot be built on veteran players if you don’t have players in the minors that can come up and contribute if things go wrong. Building a 25 man roster isn’t the only job of a GM.
Minaya was fired because he refused to account for not only the mistakes that he and ownership made, but he kept making them. He’s a great evaluator of talent, specifically in Latin America. Nobody denies that, nor should they.
He wasn’t good at being the boss. He seemed to have no plan for the direction of the franchise. It’s as though his own knees buckled when Adam Wainwright struck Beltran out. After that, a spending frenzy of poor decisions took place. As fans, we’re partially to blame. We thought we could buy our way to a title and so did he.
Critics of Alderson’s love (capital L?) bringing up sabermetrics or “moneyball”. Some key principles to Billy Beane’s philosophy in 2002 (doesn’t mean he thinks that way in 2011 by the way) was limiting base stealing and bunting.
Currently, the Mets are in the top half of baseball in bunting players over, and are 2nd in baseball in stolen bases. Weird huh?
What aspect of sabermetrics does Alderson use when evaluating players? Have you heard him mention things like DIPS, EQA, BABIP, UZR, VORP, Win Shares or WAR? Which one of these has Alderson spoken about that leads you to believe he is running the Mets solely on sabermetric principles?
With regard to using “moneyball,” that’s frankly just a lie. His critics are taking half the story (the part where he only spent $7million this off-season), and ignoring the rest (his owners being sued and having a serious cash problem).
Which player that Alderson signed was acquired because of Moneyball? My favorite is Brad Emaus. A Rule 5 pick, I admittedly liked. Why? Because the Mets had Luis Castillo at 2B, and had guys like Daniel Murphy and Justin Turner along with young Ruben Tejada at 2B. Nobody ran away with the job, so giving a Rule 5 pick a chance makes sense because he’s the only guy you lose for good if he doesn’t perform well.
One myth I’ve heard is that Emaus was picked over Turner because of his minor league OBP. Ignoring the fact of course that Turner’s OBP was higher than Emaus’. Who needs facts though right?
What other aspects of Moneyball did Alderson use so far? Did he avoid drafting High School Pitchers like Beane tried to do?
Lets see… 28 pitchers drafted, and 17 were drafted out of a college. However, of their first 10 pitchers taken, 5 of them were from High School, including their 1st taken. So, I’m sorry but that’s a fail as well.
In Moneyball, Art Howe was there to serve as a go between from upper management to player. He was not allowed to be “himself” in terms of how he manages games, and he was seen more as a figurehead or somebody to fill a uniform. Is that how Alderson’s critics see Terry Collins?
I certainly don’t see a mundane Manager who is there solely because you have to fill the uniform. Just another example of how in no way is Moneyball the guide to running the Mets.
When his critics bring up his free agent signings this year, they conveniently ignore the fact that David Einhorn essentially loaned the Mets $200million in late May of 2011. Thus, cash flow and adding large amounts of payroll to the Mets in the winter of 2010-2011 was likely not an option for Alderson.
Alderson signed 8 players for a total of $7million. Not many other teams have or had a payroll near the top of the sport and needed 2 starting pitchers, a catcher, a 2B, 2 bench players and some relief pitching. Pair that with his owners having a serious cash problem, and you have to take several small priced gambles.
Currently, it’d be very tough to argue that $1.5m for Capuano and $1.3m for Paulino were poor investments. How many teams signed a starting pitcher and a starting catcher this off-season for better deals?
You can’t do anything about injuries. Chris Young’s $1.1million was a risk, and his contract didn’t stop the Mets from getting somebody else. He looked great, and then got hurt. It happens. However, if you combined his contract with Carrasco and Buchholz you get Aaron Harang or Brad Penny (Ignore for the fact that Buchholz was a good grab).
Harang who is currently on the DL made it publically clear that he wanted to go play where his home is, and Brad Penny appeared in 9 games last year, and hasn’t spent an entire season healthy since 2007. Sound familiar?
The fact is, he had limited funds to work with and quite possibly still does. This isn’t because of his philosophy on running a team. You can’t tell me if this was 2006 that Alderson would want to cut payroll if he had an open checkbook.
Another aspect his critics love to forget is Alderson made the moves Minaya wouldn’t make. He released both Perez, and Castillo. That’s $18million that he essentially “spent”, with no return. It’s not like the NFL where he got the money back.
In 2006, the Mets made it to the LCS with $101million on the books. From there, the payroll went skyrocketing to its peak of $149million in 2009. Nobody, not Alderson’s supporters, not Alderson himself have said they wish for the Mets to be an $80milion franchise.
What has been said is that if they intend on spending money, spending it wisely is what wins games. Not spending, just to spend. Why is that so bad? 2005-2007 the Mets payroll average was about $105million. 2008-present, their payroll average is roughly $138million. Which time periods would you as a fan like to get back to?
When I hear or see people who disliked Minaya start to praise him solely because they hate Alderson, I have to laugh. They are two totally different types of GMs and no matter what they do; they can’t win with some critics.
I like Minaya a lot, I think he was given every chance to win and he failed. That doesn’t make him a bad evaluator, or a bad guy. He had some bad luck, and on top of that made some bad decisions.
I’m ready for something new, and many of us gave Minaya 3-4 years before we ever came to a conclusion about his tenure.
Yet, for Alderson, those same people are only willing to give him less than a year?
I don’t know my thoughts on Alderson and his team yet. I’d like to wait it out, and see where he takes the franchise.
I’m not going anywhere regardless. I’ve suffered through 2007 and 2008. It’s not going to get much worse than that for me, so why not just watch things unfold and see if Alderson can turn things around instead of rooting against him every time he opens his mouth or makes a decision?
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
55 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
MMO Mets Chat
Recent Comments
- Djmurphy: on Marcum Can’t Find Win Column As Mets Fall To Braves 5-3: Flores has a much hugher ceiling than...
- Fonzie13: on The Future Is Here: Six Scoreless In Wheeler’s MLB Debut: Yeah pitchers count but even if Harvey...
- Jason bay: on Marcum Can’t Find Win Column As Mets Fall To Braves 5-3: But catcher is one of many spots...
- DrDooby: on Last Night We Saw A Big Chunk Of “The Plan”: Sure, even pre Madoff, the Mets did...
- Djmurphy: on Marcum Can’t Find Win Column As Mets Fall To Braves 5-3: They may hav 3 or 4 catching...
Latest From Mets Minors
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1334 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
jesseP:
i quite frankly don’t get your article.. are you defending omar as a scout and hating him as a gm? but loving alderson as a gm when he’s done nothing?? i don’t get it..
No, he’s saying for the limited time and funds Alderson has had, you can’t expect much more.
He’s also pointing out that people are hating Alderson just because his name was in a book most of the haters haven’t read or if they did, fail to understand.
saber alderson, is a GM who was brought here to manage the money situation while keeping the team competitive.. good luck with that.. this ain’t oakland!!!
What does geography have to do with it? Besides the DH, aren’t the rules the same? Why would area code allow one team to compete on a limited budget but prevent another from doing so?
donal,
oakland plays where noone cares, their rivals are the angels, mariners, rangers.. ours are the phillies, braves, marlins and nationals.. see the difference?? in oakland you can have patient, here the fans and media are more demanding
Tough, it doesn’t change the game. You don’t let the media tell you how to run your club. That’s what the McCourts would do.
If you honestly are going to cry because Alderson wasn’t able to prepare for 2011 in November 2010 and you’re going to bail out, good. we don’t want you.
Smart people realize it takes time to build a sustainable winner. 5 months of winter with little budget room just isn’t enough.
Excellent, but he was never required to keep the money situation in line in Oakland, he moved on before the new owner started pulling in all the reigns in 1997.
It’s great to see you fall right into the exact description of uneducated fans.
Please tell me alex. Which sabermetric stats is Sandy Alderson using to operate the 2011 Mets? You call him saber alderson (saber sandy would sound so much better, you even fail there) so why do you call him that?
When you have to go so old and so many question marks for so many backups and AAA depth it really makes you wonder if that was the team to throw so much money, so many prospects and younger depth and so many early round draft choices.
I’d say Omar had some bad luck with the injuries but he chose not to put guys on the DL. Sanchez was a great trade that he should have gotten more out of. Church and Schneider really let him down.
A team is so much more than just the starting eight and rotation and closer. The bench, backend of the pen and especially AAA depth has to be there to support a go for broke move like Putz, and K-Rod. Having some talented youth in AAA is vital for a run when you have so much age on your 25.
I have to say I have never ever thought of you as an Omar apologist (or as I like to call them – Minayapologists). Just throwing that out there. Again, you can’t win w/ some of these folks. They hate Sandy so all of a sudden the team doing better than expected is “Omar’s fault” or sandy being hamstrung by ownership’s money issues is a “moneyball” thing.
Coooop! Hopefully you agree more with this post than you did with yesterdays?
hard to imagine but the urinal blog made more sense
LMAO!!!!
That’s because you have to be a grown up to understand all the big words. Come back after recess is over.
admit THAT was funny NYmetsfan.. come on, lighten up.. i’m sure jessePolice don’t mind
What is funny is your misuse of the words Saber, Moneyball and baseball. NOW that is funny – hahahahahahahah
General premise is understood, but this part is just factually inaccurate:
He was fired because targeting players like Moises Alou, Jason Bay, Rod Barajas, Frankie Rodriguez, El Duque, Guillermo Mota, Chan Ho Park, Tom Glavine halted them from building a deeper and young farm system.
Jason Bay was signed in a year in which the Mets could NOT lose their number 1 pick based on their draft position relative to the Red Sox. Yes they lost a 2nd round pick, but they did not bury themselves with that signing, despite his terrible performance this year. El Duque was part of one of Minaya’s better heist(s) as GM. First dealing Kris Benson and his bloated contract for John Maine and Jorge Julio, then turning around and dealing Julio for El Duque. He came out on top there. Mota, despite his meh performance did not hurt the Mets in terms of players or draft picks, neither did Chan Ho Park or Barajas, nor did especially Tom Glavine whom Omar did not even sign. Frankly, Glavine became Ike Davis which was is currently a potential coupe de luck.
Moises Alou and Franke Rodriguez were questionable signings which cost the Mets draft picks for sure.
I think where Omar failed was with near certainty defaulting to “veteran guys” over youth 9 times out of 10 when given the chance.
spot on patrick.. imo, he was a horrendous GM, but given the chance as a scout, he could’ve been better than ppl expected
I think my point was more that when you spend all of your money on players past their prime, you tend to forget about the minor leagues. I can see where it comes off that I meant all of those players cost the Mets picks. Not my intention. My intention was all of those players were “bought” to fill roles that other teams could have filled with young talent through the system. That paired with the lost draft picks = poor management
Why do you list K-rod as a bad signing?
He is being paid inline with what some of the top ten closers in baseball got paid annually.
1. Mariano Rivera, $15,000,000 (2008-10) (2011-12)
2. Brad Lidge, $12,500,000 (2009-11)
3. Francisco Rodriguez, $12,333,333 (2009-11)
4. Jonathan Papelbon, $12,000,000 (2011)
5. Joe Nathan, $11,750,000 (2008-11)
6. Francisco Cordero, $11,500,000 (2008-11)
7. Billy Wagner, $10,750,000 (2006-09)
8. Kerry Wood, $10,250,000 (2009-10)
9. B.J. Ryan, $9,400,000 (2006-10)
10. Jonathan Papelbon, $9,350,000 (2010)
Every Met fan I know was thrilled to get K-rod. And his numbers for the Mets are great.
but wagner was tough, talk to media, called out players and was white.. mets fans liked that,
was white???????
Care to back up that statement?
I won’t hold my breathe for his response
alex68 & anybody else who says Sandy uses sabermetrics: To quote my blog here
What aspect of sabermetrics does Alderson use when evaluating players? Have you heard him mention things like DIPS, EQA, BABIP, UZR, VORP, Win Shares or WAR? Which one of these has Alderson spoken about that leads you to believe he is running the Mets solely on sabermetric principles?
That should make it easy for you to answer. It’s like multiple choice
Please Don’t Delete My COMMENT MMO. Points of Issue:
1. What I find odd is how several people including some in the media like to point to the 2011 Mets as being influenced heavily by Omar Minaya.
Who else is it heavily influenced by? Even Terry Collins was hired by Omar Minaya, and Alderson thought so much of that hire he promoted him.
2. Minaya wasn’t fired because guys like Justin Turner, Dillon Gee, and Daniel Murphy existed in his minor leagues. He was fired because targeting players like Moises Alou, Jason Bay, Rod Barajas, Frankie Rodriguez, El Duque, Guillermo Mota, Chan Ho Park, Tom Glavine halted them from building a deeper and young farm system.
Everyone wanted Bay, I screamed for Matt Holliday, but the majority wanted Bay. Who knew he would hit six home runs in two years? Did you know that? El Duque for Jorge Julio was great trade even with the injury. What’s wrong with Frankie Rodriguez? You want Braden Looper back? Rod Barajas and his 700K contract was bad? I thought Steve Phillips signed Glavine? What’s the difference between Chan Ho Park and Blaine Boyer? What about R.A. Dickey was that signing okay? This looks like Monday Night Quarterbacking and classic nit-picking to me.
3. Minaya gave away young talent for older talent that didn’t make much of a difference when it came to making the Mets a contender.
Minaya didn’t make too many trades, what players do you miss? Mike Carp? Kevin Mulder? Please elaborate which young players we traded for OLDER players that you miss.
4. When a team gets decimated by injuries, you should be able to bring young talent up to replace them.
We did bring up young talent in 2009, the problem was that the injury replacements got injured too.
5. Would the Mets have made the playoffs in 2009 had young players come up to replace the injured? Not necessarily.
How do you that they wouldn’t? Are you in the habit of speculating because you usually call other people out for it on this site. Sports Illustrated and ESPN both picked the Mets to win the World Series in 2009.
6. One myth I’ve heard is that Emaus was picked over Turner because of his minor league OBP. Ignoring the fact of course that Turner’s OBP was higher than Emaus’. Who needs facts though right?
I don’t believe ANYONE said Emaus was picked because of his OBP. He was picked 1. Because he put up big numbers in the thin air of Las Vegas in his ONLY good minor league season. 2. Because he had more walks than strikeouts.
7. What other aspects of Moneyball did Alderson use so far? Did he avoid drafting High School Pitchers like Beane tried to do?
Ummm did you pay attention to the draft? If you did and watched on ESPN, John Hart said well there’s your first reach of the draft when the Mets took their first pick. Then ESPN showed their ranking where it showed he was a mid-second rounder. They avoided the Big Bonus First Rounders like the plague.
8. Another aspect his critics love to forget is Alderson made the moves Minaya wouldn’t make. He released both Perez, and Castillo.
How do you know Minaya wouldn’t have cut them during the offseason. Jeff Wilpon himself said before Omar was fired he asked and was given permission to cut them if he wanted to. Passing off speculation as fact again?
Minaya wasn’t GM material, but he was better than Duquette and Phillips. He was too loyal to his own players and never knew when to say when. Always handed out a contract that was always one year longer than it had to be, but that was because the Mets had to overpay to get top free agents to sign here. He wasn’t perfect and he deserved to get fired. but history will be kind to him five years from now.
Alderson had done nothing but sign a few bench jockeys, and did little to reinforce a team that wasn’t far from a contender. Even without any help from Alderson the team is resilient and battles hard and can stand toe to toe with any of the other teams in the NL. It would have benefited from even a little bit of help.
The excuse he has no money is blogger driven and not from his mouth. Wilpon actually staid repeatedly that Alderson could spend like Omar did and that he had no restrictions. If Alderson was tightening the belt it was by his doing not Omar and not Wilpon.
DO you pay attention? Have you not seen the news and the financial situation of the Wilpon’s, if you have you’d realize that Alderson never had the spending freedom that Omar had, that he wasted freely.
No Alderson did not sign any big names, but what names were out there? There were none other then Cliff Lee and you know he wasn’t coming here no matter what you assume.
I love this team, but if you think they were that close to being a contender I have a bridge to sell you, besides how can they be a contender why the likes of Wright are on the team? You’re so happy he’s hurt – that’s the spirit of a true fan.
Don’t know why you call yourself NYMetsfan,
A LOT of us thought they could contend before the season started. When you look at the prospective lineup it’s not hard to figure out, the only big question mark was the pitching and Dan Warthen is doing another excellent job again so the pitching is good enough to win with right now.
And we ARE contending, right now despite some injuries so YES some of us did think that the Mets can contend for a Wild Card before the season started and they are in contention for the Wild Card NOW.
And now with Pujols out for about 2 months the Cards are weaker AND also the Marlins have fallen on hard times meanwhile the Mets are playing some nice ball and you can say that the Mets are now stronger than Cards and Marlins.
Why is it so silly to think that they can contend. I don’t understand a lot of the people here who have their minds already made up on June 20th that the Mets won’t make a run for it.
“I love this team, but if you think they were that close to being a contender I have a bridge to sell you, besides how can they be a contender why the likes of Wright are on the team?”
This team is playing .500 without Ike Davis, Wright, and Santana, and Jason Bay hitting .220 – Just think about it for a second – if you add a good hitting 3Bman, a good power hitting 1Bman(.302 7HR, 25 RBI in 36gms), and a two time cy young award winner, to a .500 team, that team wouldn’t be close to being a contender? Really?
and if Jason Bay even comes close to HALF the player he was with Boston, that in itself will be like adding another player – It’s like he’s not even here right now – So if he starts to hit, even if he’s not the same as he once was, that’s like adding another player.
So think about it that way – we have an average team right now, and we are going to add three good players, and possibly FOUR if Jason Bay ever starts to hit.
This team is playing UNDER .500 and can’t seem to break over that.
Nothing would make me happier then to be wrong, and this team goes all the way, but if some of you think that Alderson sat pat and did nothing to put this team over the top then you’ve bought the bridge.
Bayonne – you don’t know why I call myself a NYMetsfan while you were happy when Wright got hurt, and Maniac could care less if he comes back?
“This team is playing UNDER .500 and can’t seem to break over that.”
Maybe it’s because three of the teams best players are on the DL? And when they come back, you don’t think that we will play better with them?
I sure do, and don’t confuse my caution with negativity, I want this team to win, but going into the start of this season, other then the normal “I’m a fan and we are going all the way” did you truly believe we were that close.
We went into this season with many question marks and far too many for any, even if Omar was retained, to overcome.
Now you’re confusing me.
you agree that when Wright, Ike and Satana get back we will do better, right? And since the Mets are playing around .500, playing better would mean that we are contending, but before you said we wouldn’t contend.
So do you think when they come back we have a shot at making the playoffs?
Yes, I believe they are capable of playing better, and I hope they have a shot at making post season, but cautiously optimistic, but going back to my original post to Maniac
“Alderson had done nothing but sign a few bench jockeys, and did little to reinforce a team that wasn’t far from a contender. Even without any help from Alderson the team is resilient and battles hard and can stand toe to toe with any of the other teams in the NL. It would have benefited from even a little bit of help.”
I don’t believe we were as close as Maniac thinks and I don’t believe Alderson did nothing either.
I care about Wright coming back, I’d just rather he gets 100% better and plus I dont want him to upset the team chemistry right now. Finally our pitchers are throwing inside, we’re sliding hard into second, glaring at the pitchers, getting mad, arguing with umps, playing hard ball.
How was his return change that? That is just a silly statement. This is David Wright not Gary Sheffield.
Halliday would have removed any chance of retaining Reyes. I didn’t want Bay. No player is the same player when you put him in a different lineup and a different park especially over a five year period into the future. That’s a GM’s job you know, not looking up what they did in the past. Minaya was a LOT better than Phillips or Duquette. At least Alderson has some talent in A and A+ ball. Nimmo and Fulmer are high overslot selections that other teams who draft well year after year liked. I would have preffered Swihart but I love the idea of drafting for high ceiling high school kids instead of medium floor, low ceiling college pitchers or worse, giving the picks away for 40 year old OFers and closers.
The biggest reason we missed out on the chance to draft Mike Trout is because Kunz busted, not to mention Vineyard, Rustich, Moviel, Niessen, Clyne, Mulvey. Carp still has a chance to do what Turners doing right now. Vargas would have been a great guy to keep in reserve if Maine, Redding, Livan or Perez failed. Lindstrom may have been able to close and so could have Bell. Bannister could have at least stayed healthy.
The players here have continually been given help to make up for the defficincies on last years roster with the underlying message being it’s not your fault boys. We’ll rob from the future to help you over the top yet again. This team is being told it’s up to you in this room. There is no help coming over the hill and because of it their growing a backbone and fighting it out like a team. Getting rid of expensive malcontents may have been something that Minaya COULD have done but it’s not something he DID do. Alderson did it. Minaya could have consolidated Maine and Perez down to one spot in the rotation and let them fight it out by signing a very healthy and reasonably priced Joel Pinero who would have been perfect for this stadium. That 2/16 would have not only improved the rotation, it would have improved the clubhouse by injecting a little competition into the air. Players respond to that you know.
If Alderson did hold money back, something no one here can say for sure, in order to acquire and inject some much needed talent into the system so we won’t have to hear that tired old refrain to defend every bad free agent signing “well who else were we going to get to play (insert position of latest FA bust”) the I applaud him. Not just a standing O but a standing on my roof O. It’s about ****** time.
And incidentally what young talent was it we brought up in 2009? Murphy with four minor league games in his life in the OF to play LF? Sullivan cut by Colorado? Parnell? Tatis? Sheffield? Cora? Angel Berroa? Ramon Marinez?
Agee, let me refresh your memory and you will see that even the backups to backups got injured.
What young players were called up? How about Jon Niese, Angel Pagan, Ken Takahashi, Omir Santos, Fernando Nieve, Pat Misch, Fernando Martinez to name a few. And of those only Misch and Takahashi didn’t also go on the DL.
DL Brian Schneider – Callup Omir Santos
DL Oliver Perez – Callup Jon Niese
DL Casey Fossum – Callup Ken Takahashi
DL Carlos Delgado – Callup Angel Pagan
DL Ryan Church – Callup Fernando Martinez
DL Jose Reyes – Callup Wilson Valdez
DL Alex Cora – Callup Ramon Matinez
DL Angel Pagan – Activate Alex Cora
DL JJ Putz – Callup Fernando Nieve
DL John Maine – Callup Pat Misch
DL Carlos Beltran – Activate Ryan Church
DL Ramon Martinez – Callup Argenis Reyes
DL Fernando Marinez – Callup Nick Evans
DL Gary Sheffield – Callup Cory Sullivan
DL Argenis Reyes – Callup Angel Berroa
DL Fernando Nieve – Callup Nelson Figueroa
DL Angel Berroa – Callup Anderson Hernandez
DL Jon Niese – Callup Elmer Dessens
DL Alex Cora (again) – Callup Wilson Valdez
DL Johan Santana – Callup Lance Broadway
Maniac may I refresh your memory.
Santos was not a young player he was a 28 year old career minor leaguer.
Jon Niese (22) was at least better prepared than when he was rushed up the previous year.
Ken Takahashi was young? Really? at 40 years old? Hmmm.
Angel Pagan wasn’t brought up he made the opening day roster, then went on the DL and at 27? Not really young.
Fern was young (20) Perhaps too young. In fact no perhaps about it.
Wilson Valdez was young? at 31?
Ramon Martinez at 36 is young?
Misch at 27?
Church started on opening day.
Argenis Reyes 26 OK
Nick Evans 23 OK
Corey Sullivan at 29?
Angel Berroa at 29?
Nelson Figueroa 35?
Anderson Hernandez 26 OK
Elmer Dessens 38?
Fernando Nieve at 26? OK.
Wilson Valdez 31?
Lance Broadway 25 OK
Lets not forget Cora 33, Castillo 33, Sheffield 40, Tatis 34, Delgado 37, Brown 34, Green 31, Anderson 35, Cancel 33,Livan 34, Green 30, Wagner 37, Fossum 31, Putz 32.
I guess it would really be more accurate to say he brought up a handful of young guys and a whole pile of older one’s.
Why do you view Sheffield as a bad signing? He didn’t cost much, and it was only for one year, he hit .276 10HR and 43RBI in 100 games – why is that a bad contract? Sure he was old, but what does that matter if he’s hitting?
I can’t believe some people can blame 2009 on not having enough depth – No team can survie that amount of injuries, and if you look at it objectively our backups weren’t that bad – We had Pagan to backup Beltran(Pagan hit .306, that’s pretty good for a backup), when Delgado went down, we moved Murph to 1st – not a bad backup, and then we moved Sheffield to LF, who hit REALLY good for a backup. Cora was probably the only bad one – Eeven Fernando Tatis hit .282 that year – that’s not bad for a backup – Santos got a few big hits and was nice for a little while.
I don’t know what the people who say “depth” was the problem expect our backups to hit like – Most of them did good! Do they expect them to hit .300 30HR’s and drive in 100 runs?
And another thing,
Yes Putz was a bad trade, but it’s not like Omar traded for some bum, Ok? he was a very good closer with Seattle, and he pitched really good last year, and again this year, as the dbacks closer.
He’s still a VERY good pitcher, we just got him at the wrong time, that’s all.
Story of Omar’s life.
Omar made a ton of bad moves with the Mets, but he also made a lot of good moves too – That’s why I say Omar was an average GM. He made some bad moves, and he made some good moves.
But some of his good moves are viewed as bad when they actually good for whatever reason.
Like in this post, Jeesep makes it sound like El duque was a bad move when really, he was good for the Mets – 18-12 3.88 ERA 1.19 WHIP – how is trading Jorge Julio for him a bad move?
Eeven trading for Oliver Perez was a good move, signing him wasn’t of course, but the trade was good – He went 25-17 with an ERA of under 4, and 354K’s in 370 IP in 07 and 08, and almost pitched the Mets into the WS in 06 – I’d say that’s a good move, but signing him was awful, as we all know.
Maine was another good move, everyone forgets how he pitched 06-08 and just remember how he pitched the last two years – He was 31-23, ERA under 4, 1.26 WHIP, from 06-08.
And trading for Delgado too – He hit 104 HR’s for us.
t agee makes Omar sound like the worst GM in the game, while the truth is Omar had 4 winning seasons in 6 years, and in the only two losing seasons we were killed by injuries.
Sure, that was a bad contract, but you can’t seriously tell me that el duque pitched BAD for the Mets right?
El duque actually supports my argument perfectly. It was a good move getting him, but it was a bad move signing him – That’s why I say he’s an average GM, he made some good moves, and then he made some bad moves.
but you guys only bring up the bad ones.
Vinny:
You’re missing a key fact in regards to El Duque.
Yes, the Mets acquired him for the 2006 season. That is a fact, and that was a fine trade except for the fact Duque got hurt right before the playoff games started. But ignoring that for a second
The Mets signed Duque to a 2 year, $12million deal AFTER the 2006 season when he got hurt right before the postseason.
Now, please share with the class how Duque did in 2007 and 2008 combined?
Signing a 40 year old pitcher to a 2 year deal worth $6mil per year was a mistake, specifically when he was entering the off-season with an injury.
Because the bad moves far outweigh the good. Nothing happens in a vacuum, Vinny. When Omar screwed up, it hurt the team’s future as well as the present.
That’s because nobody ever talks about the impact the good moves had.
Trading for el duque, Maine, and Perez, didn’t impact the team from 06-08? How many games would we win those years without them? They all had winning records(from06-08) and had ERA’s under 4.
R.A Dickey and Angel Pagan aren’t impacting the team now?
Carlos Delgado hit 104 HR’s – that wasn’t a great trade?
Even though we spent a lot Carlos Beltran and Billy Wagner, they were good signing – Wagner saved 101 games, Beltran hit .280 and 144HR’s.
I’d say those good moves far outweigh the bad contracts. Having a slugging 1Bman that hits over 100 Hr’s in three years impacts the team more than a bad contract to an old 2ndbaseman.
“That’s because nobody ever talks about the impact the good moves had.”
For the same reason no one talks about the good parts in The Phantom Menace.
“Trading for el duque, Maine, and Perez, didn’t impact the team from 06-08? How many games would we win those years without them? They all had winning records(from06-08) and had ERA’s under 4.”
I’m meh on El Duque, but yes, Maine and Perez contributed to their success at the time. What followed, though, over shadows the few wins.
“R.A Dickey and Angel Pagan aren’t impacting the team now?”
Luck. The fact that we had to rely on someone like Dickey (a journey man with a bad elbow who was trying to learn the kuckleball so we got him cheap) is a bad sign itself.
“Carlos Delgado hit 104 HR’s – that wasn’t a great trade?”
Why didn’t they sign him the year before? Why didn’t they prepare for the imminent decline of their 34 year old power hitter with chronic back problems? Did they really think he was a long term solution?
“Even though we spent a lot Carlos Beltran and Billy Wagner, they were good signing – Wagner saved 101 games, Beltran hit .280 and 144HR’s.”
Ya, it was really great how the Red Sox and Yankees wouldn’t pony up for Beltran, so he fell into Omar’s lap, where he was misused and insulted almost upon arrival.
And saves are a useless stat. Besides, if Omar had given Heath Bell away for a bag of balls, he wouldn’t have needed to sign a 34 year old pitcher with elbow problems for big $$.
“t agee makes Omar sound like the worst GM in the game, while the truth is Omar had 4 winning seasons in 6 years, and in the only two losing seasons we were killed by injuries.”
1 play off run and 2 injury filled seasons because he relied on injury prone players. Not the worse GM in game, but he failed to live up to expectations he himself set.
“I’m meh on El Duque, but yes, Maine and Perez contributed to their success at the time. What followed, though, over shadows the few wins”
El Duque was 18-12 in with a 3.88 ERA with 240k’s in 260 innings 1.19 WHIP – trading Julio for that is a great trade.
It wasn’t just a “few wins” Maine and Perez had – They combined to win 57 games for the Mets from 06-08, the way the pitched those years had more impact to the team than the way the pitched the final two seasons – They were very good from 06-08.
“Luck. The fact that we had to rely on someone like Dickey (a journey man with a bad elbow who was trying to learn the kuckleball so we got him cheap) is a bad sign itself.”
That’s just ridiculous. If we are going by “luck” then I can say Omar was “unlucky” with Perez because NOBODY could have expected him to fall apart the way he did – You could have predicted him to not do that good, but nobody saw THAT coming.S o if he was Lucky with Dickey, then he was unlucky with Perez.
“Ya, it was really great how the Red Sox and Yankees wouldn’t pony up for Beltran, so he fell into Omar’s lap, where he was misused and insulted almost upon arrival.”
What does this matter? Has Beltran produced in a Mets uniform? The answer to the question is yes, so it’s a good signing, none of that other stuff matters. And he was “misused”? how so?
“Why didn’t they sign him the year before?”
Umm, who cares WHEN they got him? In three years he hit 100 HR’s and we traded Jacbos for him – that’s a great trade.
“And saves are a useless stat. Besides, if Omar had given Heath Bell away for a bag of balls, he wouldn’t have needed to sign a 34 year old pitcher with elbow problems for big $$.”
Fine. Use whatever stat you want for Wagner – He pitched good. And yes, Bell was probably the worst move he made – Bell was traded after we signed Wagner, so your wrong by saying if we never traded Bell we wouldn’t have needed wagner because wagner was already here!
“1 play off run and 2 injury filled seasons because he relied on injury prone players. Not the worse GM in game, but he failed to live up to expectations he himself set.”
4 winning seasons out of 6, the only two losing ones we were killed by injuries, and the biggest ones were to reyes and Beltran who were not considered injury prone to start the 2009 season.
tagee: I just saw your list haha. I did the same thing… the idea that the 2009 Mets brought in “young” players to replace injured talent is a lie. They brought in veterans who couldn’t make the team to begin with
Jessep, The newly devoted minions of Mulluh Omar will defend him to the hilt even if that means distorting, twisting, spinning, making stuff up or anything else neccessary to puff up their swami’s resume because in reality they know that his rosters were filled with excessive age, injuries, salaries, lack of competition and an atmosphere of entitlement, not to mention loss after loss and meltdown after meltdown in tight situations (One player was to blame for all of them)
Even though the book on Omar will be open for another decade and he stands to be remembered in the future more for Flores than Wagner, Davis than Alou, Mejia than Castillo, Familla than Perez and Harvey than Bay it will not stop the revisionism and historical inaccuracies by his most faithful followers.
The backups that they had played good – So what does it matter if they were young or old?
Pagan hit .306
Sheffield hit .276 10HR 43RBI in 100 games
Tatis hit .282
Nieve had an ERA under 3
Niese pitched good when he came up, but then got hurt.
Valdez wasn’t awful – .256 in 41 games.
Thole hit .300
Sounds pretty good to me.
What do you expect our backups to look like? they are backups! If they were any good they would be starting in the 1st place. Your going to do bad if your replacing GOOD everyday players with backups, even if they play as well as they did.
Shefield didn’t cost much in $$ but the man did what he does best and quit on the team when they wouldn’t offer him a contract extension.
I think 09 was too much for any GM to overcome, that was the worst injury list in sport history.
I’m more upset what he didn’t do when we were in it in 07 and 08. Nothing at the trade deadline, and the only reason he did anything in 06 was because Sanchez went down.
That’s fair, but to blame Omar for not having good backups, when actually the backups didn’t do that bad, is ridiculous.
I guess they want Omar to gave gotten a .300 30HR bat off the bench.
Maniac:
“Please Don’t Delete My COMMENT MMO.”
— Why would they delete it? Because we disagree? The only time a comment is deleted or not posted is when it’s vulgar.
“Who else is it heavily influenced by? Even Terry Collins was hired by Omar Minaya, and Alderson thought so much of that hire he promoted him.”
— First, I’m not exactly ready to give Omar credit for hiring Collins. In 2010, it was clear to everybody that a lot of Minaya’s “power” was taken away from him, and Luis Aguayo who was an Omar guy was fired. Aguayo was one of the coaches brought up when Willie was fired… and then he was re-assigned to milb field coordinator so that Razor Shines could be with the big club. Aguayo was a Tony Bernazzard guy actually. So the franchise was ridding themselves of that dynamic, and you can certainly blame Omar for putting them in that spot.
Collins was not hired as Milb Field Coordinator to one day be the Manager in Omar’s eyes in my view. If Omar was going to name another Manager, I have little to no doubt he would have named Backman manager just to please fans.
“Everyone wanted Bay, I screamed for Matt Holliday, but the majority wanted Bay. Who knew he would hit six home runs in two years? Did you know that? El Duque for Jorge Julio was great trade even with the injury. What’s wrong with Frankie Rodriguez? You want Braden Looper back? Rod Barajas and his 700K contract was bad? I thought Steve Phillips signed Glavine? What’s the difference between Chan Ho Park and Blaine Boyer? What about R.A. Dickey was that signing okay? This looks like Monday Night Quarterbacking and classic nit-picking to me.”
— So here’s the problem. You start with “everyone wanted Bay” You also give yourself a pat on the back, as many critics do “well I said they should do this.” Matt Holliday signed for almost DOUBLE the amount of money that the Mets signed Bay for. Bay got 4 years, Holliday got 7. You didn’t scream for Holliday because you knew Bay would absolutely be terrible. You just maybe didn’t think he’d be great. You don’t know what Holliday would have done at Citi Field and without Pujols. So trying to act like the Mets would have been better off with Holliday than Bay is an argument not worth having.
The rest of your examples are laughable to me because you’re a perfect example of somebody who literally almost wet themselves with joy when Omar was fired and now you’re on here defending his every move?
“Minaya didn’t make too many trades, what players do you miss? Mike Carp? Kevin Mulder? Please elaborate which young players we traded for OLDER players that you miss.”
— Again as I said in comment above. When you focus your attention on signing 35 year old players, and focus little to no attention or care on draft picks you’d lose because you sign them and then little to no attention on developing a system that is deep… you fail as a GM. I didn’t say he “Traded” young players for old. I said his free agent signings halted him from doing anything significant with the farm system in terms of building depth.
“We did bring up young talent in 2009, the problem was that the injury replacements got injured too.”
Which “young” talent was that? Jeremy Reed? Wilson Valdez? Cory Sullivan? Anderson Hernandez? Angel Berroa? Omir Santos? Ramon Martinez? Just because somebody says we brought up young players as replacements… doesn’t make it true. Which young pitchers did they bring up to save the day? Elmer Dessens? Ken Takahashi? Tim Redding? Nelson Figueroa? Fernando Nieve, Brian Stokes?
The fact is in 2009, the Mets suffered an insane amount of injuries, agreed. But the problem was their replacement players were not young minor leaguers but guys filling AAA roster spots. For every Fernando Martinez or Josh Thole you mention for 2009, I can mention double in “veteran” minor leaguers getting the call up.
So please stop pretending the 2009 Mets had an influx of young talent who got their chance due to injury but then got injured themselves. It’s not true.
“I don’t believe ANYONE said Emaus was picked because of his OBP. He was picked 1. Because he put up big numbers in the thin air of Las Vegas in his ONLY good minor league season. 2. Because he had more walks than strikeouts.”
That’s actually not true. Your best friend Bayonne has said that before. And that’s a good enough reason to draft somebody with a Rule 5 pick. Why can’t you grasp the risk/reward of the Rule 5? The Mets had no sure thing 2B. It was a risk worth taking.
“7. What other aspects of Moneyball did Alderson use so far? Did he avoid drafting High School Pitchers like Beane tried to do?
Ummm did you pay attention to the draft? If you did and watched on ESPN, John Hart said well there’s your first reach of the draft when the Mets took their first pick. Then ESPN showed their ranking where it showed he was a mid-second rounder. They avoided the Big Bonus First Rounders like the plague.”
—- I think right around here is where you proved to me you either did not read Moneyball, or have poor comprehension skills. First, I like John Hart but I’ve also seen quotes comparing Nimmo to Jay Bruce. Second, avoiding a “big bonus first rounder” as you say, isn’t a Moneyball thing. In the book Moneyball, their 1st two picks were Nick Swisher and Joe Blanton……
“How do you know Minaya wouldn’t have cut them during the offseason. Jeff Wilpon himself said before Omar was fired he asked and was given permission to cut them if he wanted to. Passing off speculation as fact again?”
—- Why does it matter that he would have cut them? He didn’t cut Oliver when he should have. He lost his chance. You can’t tell me Omar would have released Perez when Perez was giving him every reason in the world to do it in 2010.
“Alderson had done nothing but sign a few bench jockeys, and did little to reinforce a team that wasn’t far from a contender. Even without any help from Alderson the team is resilient and battles hard and can stand toe to toe with any of the other teams in the NL. It would have benefited from even a little bit of help.”
—– Does Alderson dictate how much $ he has to spend? Was he supposed to take out a personal loan himself? How much more $ do you want the team to spend past $140+million to be a winner? Who should he have signed? You think it’s an accident he only spent $8million in the winter the Madoff scandal hit its peak? You’re acting like the financial struggles of the ownership don’t even matter when signing free agents. You think the Wilpon’s said “here’s $50million” and Sandy said “no thanks I just want 8″
Wilpon stated repeatedly that Alderson had Minaya money but yet needed $200m this May? Come on. Wilpon’s had to save face. You HONESTLY think Alderson had an open checkbook? When reports came out left and right this spring about the franchise bleeding cash and oh yeah, they needed to sell part of the team?
You’re dislike for Alderson is driven by 1 sentence in a book that you either didn’t read or didn’t understand. You’re blinded by the fact you cannot admit Omar messed up by over-spending and lack of attention to the depth of the farm system. Alderson is here to clean up a mess first, and then make things better. He inherited a team with bad contracts, no young superstar prospects and owners with serious financial problems… and you expected him to what?
Alderson inherited a team that needed: 2 starting pitchers, a catcher, a backup IF, a backup OF, 2-3 relievers, and maybe a 2B.
Explain to me how Alderson should have done that differently?
Omar was reactionary where alderson is preventave. I like the fact that Alderson looks to the future and seems to have a plan for the minors and the big league club. I did not like Omar’s lack of planning he always seemed two steps behind. I was not an Omar hater until the Putz trade I seen that as a last ditch effort.