22
2011
Collins, Reyes, Einhorn And The Mets
An article by Former Writers
In the midst of chaos, we have calm – while the newspapers are screaming about the Mets team, they are quietly learning how to work together, and they are listening to their manager, Terry Collins.
This is the best Mets team in years because of him – he puts his players first and they know it. Did you know that he speaks to each of his players every day?
You couldn’t have a better manager to guide all our new arrivals from buffalo than Terry, who knows many of them from his time as the Mets Minor League Coordinator under Omar Minaya. Many of them are barely into their twenties, but they are here and they will be guided by this man who takes his job very seriously.
You can see Terry during the game watching like a proud father. Every one of these men will pay attention to him, because they know he is on their side and will run out on the field at the slightest hint of a problem, or make time to see them quietly in his office to help with some other issue.
Right now, Jose Reyes is in the media spotlight, and rumors now abound that he may be traded simply because he elects to focus on his job without any distractions. If he is traded, it will be the biggest mistake made by the Mets since Nolan Ryan was moved. If you remove a player from his comfort zone, you are messing with the entire team chemistry as Terry alluded to yesterday before the game .
The Mets owners – the Wilpons – have shown that they have no concern for anyone but themselves and that they will always put their money first. Right now all their little companies are in such a mess that they are in Federal Court over their actions. And who still believes that the Wilpons knew nothing about their buddy, Bernie Madoff???
Frankly I”m waiting for David Einhorn to take over this team – a real baseball fan who actually comes to the games, with a bunch of kids and sits in the stands where he watches carefully how his team is doing. But there’s news on that front too as it is being reported that the Mets’ exclusive negotiating period with David Einhorn is set to expire next week. The Post says the deal could look like this:
Einhorn is more than a few days away from signing a contract to buy a minority stake in the baseball team, sources said. These issues include how many years — three, four or five — Mets owners Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz have to pay Einhorn back the $200 million he will invest, another source said. Deal parameters are that Einhorn invests $200 million and either gets paid back, keeping a 16 percent stake as interest, or, if not paid back, is able to exercise an option to up his stake to 60 percent.
So, let’s concentrate on the team now, and hope and pray that they will not lose the heart of the team, Jose Reyes, but will keep him here and build the team around him.
Let’s Go Mets!
About the Author: Former Writers
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Excellent post Annie. Just one thing, are you sure trading Jose would be the biggest mistake since trading Nolan Ryan OR Tom Seaver, who was moved 6 years later? IMO, the circumstances surrounding Seaver actually mirror Reyes’ situation now. But, moving Ryan was also a enormous mistake as well, though it might have been a bit harder to see where Ryan would be 20 years later as compared to what Seaver had already accomplished with the Mets. Anyhow, I really enjoyed your post about Collins and how he handles his players. Thank you.
86mets – Frankly I had put Tom in there with Nolan, but Tom was older and had already had a lot of success where Nolan was younger and still had a lot of baseball in him. Didn’t he?? I think he finally gave it all up when he was over 40 – and now he owns banks and teams. Nice combination, I think and it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
Thanks for saying nice things about Terry Collins, too. Most people don’t realize that so many members of this team now are quite young – and need someone to talk to. Everyone gets lonesome and/or misses home now and then – I think Terry supplies that for them and I just wanted to give him credit for looking after his guys like he does.
Devil’s advocate here: Is losing the heart of an under .500 team really all that painful?
What is that supposed to mean? That it’s Reyes’ fault we are under .500? That’s kind of a dopey thing to insinuate dont you think? Would they be a .350 team if you took him out of the equation all season so far? Most definitely.
No… it means for the last 3 years this team has been under .500 (or on a pace to finish under .500) and it’s time for a change. They changed the front office, they changed the minor league development, the on field manager… it’s time to change the roster.
Having a guy like Reyes only making losing feel a little bit better right now. This team is losing more than it’s winning. That’s the bottom line.
Your exactly correct
You’re right Jessep. The New England Patriots havn’t won a Super Bowl since 2006. Time they deal Brady for some picks and move on. Not that the Mets are nearly as competitive as the Pats are in the NFL but I’m sure Pats fans have had it with losing. There’s the old saying of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Do you really think ever other team out there would be willing to give up a top tier prospect for a player they can sign in the offseason? Teams the last few years have shown restraint as each trade deadline passes and no news is made.
Check out the interesting article over at Amazin Avenue today. It says alot.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/6/22/2237374/jose-reyes-and-the-piazza-precedent
Spector: Surely you aren’t comparing one of the greatest QBs to ever play a sport (Top 10 minimum) to Jose Reyes…. are you?
And I don’t know what other teams would offer. Hence why I said if the return isn’t greater than 2 picks, then do not trade him and watch him walk his way out of NY. Be one of the few times we actually see Reyes walk (rimshot)
I knew you’d say that about Tom Beiber I mean Brady
You have to go by what a player is worth to that particular franchise. Jose Reyes is to the Mets what Brady is to the Pats in terms of importance.
Careful about the walk refernece…we don’t want to turn this into a saber debate……..Bayonne?
Spector:
Sorry but comparing a SS who hasn’t won anything as a professional to a Super Bowl winning QB who is a leader in his sport year after year is such a farce.
I can get any SS in baseball to come play for the Mets and NOT win.
I can’t get any QB in the sport to replace Brady and win.
If Jose Reyes and the Mets were WS champs in 2006, I’d say let Jose Reyes fill out the dollar total on the check and sign it.
The thing is… they didn’t. He’s 28, hasn’t won anything in his entire career here, and frankly if you look at his ENTIRE career, he’s been a disappointment.
Is he excited? Yes. Do I like him? yes. Am I going to sit here and pretend 2011 wipes away his previous 8 years? No.
If your goal is to always be “almost good enough to win” then yes, Reyes is like Brady.
Sorry but I’m not falling into a trap of a player being so important to an under .500 team at the age of 28 when it could cost 6/7 years.
2003+2004: nothing special
2005: average year at best
2006: great year
2007: not that impressive
2008: great year
2009: bust
2010: below average (in terms of expectations)
He hasn’t had a great career. He’s not some sure thing to have his 2011 year be replicated year after year.
Not to mention 2006-2008 teams were happy to beat the Mets in SPITE of him AND he barely performed in 07/08 September.
Sorry, your Brady comparison is so far fetched
“If your goal is to always be “almost good enough to win” then yes, Reyes is like Brady. ”
Not having Reyes or trading him for the next Ed Yarnall or Preston Wilson will guarantee the Mets will be better in the future? As much as I have faith in Alderson, I don’t see other GM’s breaking the doors down to give us squat for Reyes.
Reyes isn’t worth Crawford like money I assume in your opinion. Do you feel Crawford was worth that? Their career stats are very similar.
You have this overall frustration with this team and I get that we all do to a point but Reyes isn’t the problem nor has been the past 8 years. Is he the greatest thing since sliced bread, no, but his importance to the Mets is as vital as Brady is to the Pats as any superstar is to their individual team.
Now if you don’t think Reyes is on his way to being an elite player then I don’t know what to say. Maybe this is a fluke of a season, then again maybe next year when he hoists a World Series trophy with the Phils we can discuss how we feel then?
“2003+2004: nothing special”
He was 20 years old.
“2005: average year at best”
Again – He was still very young.
“2006: great year”
Right
“2007: not that impressive”
In 2007 he was still one of the top SS in the league.
“2008: great year”
Right
“2009: bust”
because his injury was mishandled by the Mets.
“2010: below average (in terms of expectations)”
because of a fluke injury, that caused him to miss ST, and part of the season – He was not 100% all season because of that.
Oh and you forgot, 2011: MVP season.
Reyes was brought up here a year too soon for one reason. To revive interest in a losing season and sell some tickets.
In June of 2003, well on our way to yet another 90+ loss season Jose was rushed up here to help remove the stink of the worst team money could buy part 2.
When Minaya did sign him in 2006 he shouldn’t have been ending the contract when Jose was 28. If he had come up a year later that alone would have put him at 29, add in another year plus another club option your talking 31.
I’ll tell you one thing about this team is that they will do absolutely anything to avoid players in their physical prime. Even to the point of getting rid of them too early AND bringing them back too late like they did with Isringhausen, Bernitz, and Bay. Who’s next Nelson Cruz? Marco Scutero?
Tejada will be the next guy who’s gone just as he’s ready to put it all together at 28.
Well at least Phillips didn’t trade Reyes for Alomar as has been reported he tried to.
That’s because Wright, Davis, AND Santana are on the DL, and they are going to come off at some point. We are playing around .500, without three of our best players on the field.
It’s not like we are losing with all of our guys HEALTHY, or like the guys we are missing are never going to come back, they will come back.
And not only that, Jason bay was in a slump all year long, and is starting to show signs of breaking out of it. You never know, he can have a HUGE 2nd half like Delgado did 2008, remember that? And Delgado was OLDER than Bay when that happend.
Vinny: When Wright/Ike were healthy, what was the Mets record? Also, I’ve heard this tune way too many times. “Our biggest acquisition at trade deadline will be the guys from our DL.”
Tired of it. Sorry. The Mets are under .500. Until they prove to be able to win games more often than they lose, I’m not buying into this team’s chances. Will I root? Yes. Will I allow myself to be proven wrong? I hope so.
But I won’t be. They couldn’t win when healthy, they couldn’t win when the team was built more strongly in the past.
We haven’t been winning because we haven’t had Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Davis, and Santana all playing at the same time.
THAT’S why we haven’t won.
And I’m gonna tell you why we are going to have them all playing together – Ike and Wright aren’t injury prone – Wright was hurt on a tag play at 3B, Ike was hurt bumping into Wright – Those injury were flukes – kinda like Buster Posey’s injrury this year. Because Posey’s on the DL does that mean he’s injury prone? no.
Carlos Beltran is having no problems at all this year with injuries, and looks like to me, that he’s running better and is starting to steal some bases – I’m not worried about him at all.
Jose Reyes’ injury in 2009 was mishandled, and he never should have missed that much time – It wasn’t his fault, and last year, and this year he had NO poblems with his legs – The doctors said thyroid condition won’t happen again, so that’s nothing to worry about either.
Santana would be the only one I would be worried about because he’s a pitcher in his 30′s with a shoulder injury, but Reyes, Wright, and Davis are in their prime, and beltran has looked great this year – when Wright and Davis get back, we will start winnig.
Yeah, this team has been under .500 the last 3 years with Reyes so why not move him? Let’s completely disregard the fact that EVERYBODY was injured in 2009 so no need to go into that again and also the team was hit by injuries in 2010 too.
Yeah because the team has played at less the full capacity the last 3 years let’s deal one of our best players (if not the most important) when he’s finally 100% healthy. Oh, and Reyes hasn’t exactly been healthy in 09 & 10 either.
But according to the A’s sympathizer we may as well deal him because we’re not playing under .500 the last 3 years regardless if the team was healthy or not. Let’s just completely ignore the fact that it’s June 22, still time to get on track and make a run for this thing. And if they don’t sign him at the end of the season or if everything falls apart and we fall out of it the reason he’ll be gone is because of the Mets financial situation and nothing to do with how we finished the last 2 years with him.
I have a scenario let’s say everyone comes back and we have the division/wildcard and we choke it away again or someone gets hurt and we blame it on that, or we make it to the playoffs and but don’t win a WS. Reyes ends up signing with another team. What then? also why do you guys think Reyes will sign with Mets at all. His boss said he wasn’t worth big money his team can be defined by anyone not a fan as lousy, injury prone, chokers, unlucky or managed poorly. All of which I’ve heard the “experts” refer to the Mets as. I know he has said he wants to be here in NY but players either say they want to be there or they don’t want to be there I’ve neve seen Middle ground with any free agent besides Lebron. If he wanted to be here he would be listening to offers right now from the Mets. He isn’t comming back next year one way or the other I’d prefer to get something for him wouldn’t you?
Same attitude shown by Mr. Grant when he let Seaver go then finished by dismantling a team that was not that good.
“Devil’s advocate here: Is losing the heart of an under .500 team really all that painful?”
It is when the only reason you are even close to .500 is that heart your ready to give away!
What are the chances that one of the two draft picks equal the production of Reyes’s next 5 years?
What are the chances of a prospect received in a trade equaling the production of Reyes’ next 5 years? (regardless of when it may occur)
What are the chances of the 2nd of the two draft picks giving us anything worthwhile?
What are the chances of any other prospect(s) included in a trade giving us anything worthwhile? (again regardless of when it may occur)
What can (or would) be done with the 100M over the next 5 years?
You really would need one prospect (from a trade or draft choice) to equal Reyes next 5 years production during the course of his 6 years of team control so take 80% of Reyes average year and that becomes very questionable as to whether that is attainable.
What could you likely realize from the 2nd prospect (through trade or draft pick) That’s the hard part. The picks Jose would leave behind would most likely be in the 20-30 and 35-40 area. Many, many good/very good and even great players have been selected well AFTER those two picks. For example Brian McCann was selected in the 2nd round, Jon Lester and Dustin Pedroia (#65) too, Josh Johnson in the 4th. Those players are out there to be had. Everyone else seems to get guys like that. How does the 2012 draft shape up so far? 2011 was a universally acclaimed deep draft, is there a bounce back in 2012?
If we did take the picks we’d have to go huge upside with at least one of them which means 2-3M and probably would have to do the same with our own so that’s another 2-3 M and then perhaps a more signable lower risk, lower ceiling type for the supplementary round selection.
Remember TWO guys who’s prime equaling Reyes next 5 years is a net loss so where does the money saved go?
Well if history is any guide none of it ever finds it’s way into the draft and just because we went high ceiling high school prospects this time around doesn’t mean we’ll be able to continue to do that.
The money really hasn’t gone into the IFA market either. Sitting on resurgent and record selling years in 2006, 2007 and the first half of 2008 (with people visiting Shea for the last time and well before Madoff hit) the brakes were applied in the IFA market. Aderlin Rodriguez was the Mets only sign 600,000. 2009 just Juan Urbina 1,000,000. So if the brakes were put on while there were record setting attendance years and BEFORE Madoff hit………
I suspect that none of the money other than perhaps signing bonuses to the top 3 picks in the 2012 draft (our own and the two for Reyes) and at absolute most ONE top IFA for say 2M or a total expenditure of about 8M and perhaps a mid level non compensatable FA signing in the neighborhood of 10M over two years. 18M for us, 82M for the Wilpon.
So it comes down to the ability to select prospects that can give us 80% of what Reyes will likely produce over the next 5 years and prospects that can give us something worthwhile and maybe even better than that.
That would depend on the offers and the projected depth of the 2012 draft. When you weigh in the uncertainty in my opinion it becomes clear that Reyes for 5 or 6/100 is the safer deal cause that money saved isn’t going back into the team.
Sadly if that money was sure to go into the draft and IFA market in equal installments over the next 5 years, an EXTRA 7.5M in the draft (and the draft was projected to be a good one) and an EXTRA 7.5M in the IFA market and the remaining 25 M used for smart, short term non compensatable FA’s it would be worth it but if history is any guide………
drafted prospects in the 2012 draft aren’t expected to replace anything from Reyes in the next 5 years. They are expected to play and develop in the minors. His replacement will gome form seasoned prospects, and whatever else they buy with the 100+ million saved (all this, of course, assumes that they do not sign him)
That’s not what I said. What I said was (regardless of when that production may occur) meaning most likely 2017-2023.
In other words compare Reyes 2012-2017 to the top piece in a trade or draft pick’s 2017-2023 season or whenever he comes up (if he does)
Let me make my statement clear again since people like Bayonne and Vinny like to take parts of what I say and use it as their battle cry
If the NY Mets are under .500 on July 15th, they need to entertain offers for Reyes
If they are not offered something they feel is more valuable than 2 draft picks, then keep him and watch him walk.
If they are offered something they feel is more valuable than 2 picks, then take it.
Jessep, It is a pipe dream that we have a chance of leap frogging 7 other teams for a Wild Card. What we really should be doing is listening to anything anyone wants to talk about. 99.9% of it is just blabber but just maybe there’s some gold in there born out of two teams fighting it out, and fighting for the same fresh horse.
When was the last time we traded from the 25 for a prospect? (not including salary dumps) Mazzili Darling/Terrill, Bailor Fernandez, Terrill Hojo?
It’s not just about this year, Reyes is going to help the team win next year, the year after, and so on, and so on – That’s why you keep him – Even if the Mets have NO CHANCE at all to make the playoffs this year, you still keep him because he makes you better in the future.
Also, the chances that those two picks even come close to the production Reyes gives you is just SO slim.
He makes us a better team NOW, and will make us a better in the future.
our past failures are due to the lack of pitching and injuries.people are acting like it was reyes’s fault saying his carrer has been a disappointment.those people are morons.so if u don’t win the world series ur a failure by their logic.
I disagree completely. I think we are mostly afraid of losing Reyes for nothing or signing him to a huge deal and either getting hurt again or not being as productive. I don’t disagree with the potential Reyes has but he did spend mist of the last two seasons hurt. Also you can’t deny this Mets team has a losing culture sometimes you can’t get rid I’d of that if your core remains the same. I don’t think anyone truly believes there is any one person reasonable for the Mets woes we just know something isn’t working and it’s hard to toss out 100m if you still can’t put your finger on the problem.
I think the biggest part of that culture of losing was the fact that we has SO MANY big guys expected to produce that they all were able to escape the spotlight of accountability by hiding in each others shadow.
That and the resulting lack of payroll caused us to not have adequate backups and other starting players, bench ect which caused there to be no alternatives for benching unproductive players. No competition for jobs. No recourse for lackadasical play and no depth for injuries.
If you have ONE everyday regular making the big money or TWO homegrown superstars leading the team that’s an entirely different situation.
The older imported 31-40 year old big name expensive player has at the most a 3 year shelf span and sometimes doesn’t even have that. Even an elite all around superstar in his prime at a key defensive position like Carlos Beltran can get hurt and miss a couple of years.
The key is to have great young players come up and play well and have more of them coming up throughout all levels of your system and only occasionally supplement them with the expensive FA. Maybe two big time ace pitchers, not everyday players on their last legs.
By this time Jose and David should have been the undisputed leaders of this team with many Ike’s, Ruben’s, Niese’s, Gee’s, Beato’s, to lead.
Exactly!! And I doubt anyone would be talking about trading Reyes if contract talks were in the ball park of 7 years 60-80m. I’m not saying he’s not worth 140m I’m just saying I don’t think the Mets can take that chance on ANY player for that kind of money right now.
Thats a great line of thinking if your playing Fantasy Baseball and will not keep any of your players next season Jessup…..
Your looking at this year as an island and not considering the long term affect.
Yes we are under .500 now. What would be be if Reyes was gone? a .300 club!
Keep Reyes and get someone else who can get you over .500 when Reyes does not!
You can’t ever win with your line of thinking.
The only time your logic says to keep a player is when your over .500 and if you keep trading the guy who wins you games before you hit that mark you will never HIT that mark!
The solution isn’t trading Reyes it is replacing all the other guys that don’t make Reyes’s contribution enough to get us over .500!
And it could be said that if Wright and Davis were here we WOULD be over .500 right now!
We certainly are not under .500 BECAUSE of Reyes…just DESPITE Reyes!
Follow your plan and it starts with trading Reyes, Under .500 ok time to trade Wright, then Davis, Then Niese, Pelfrey, Gee hell the whole damn roster…
Next thing you know your the Pirates!
Annie,
Heard you on Wfan yesterday. You are my favorite here. Reasonnable and long time fan. We have seen a lot of good and bad. Lets go Mets.
Metstheory 22 – Thanks for the kind words. I don’t usually call in to WFAN during the day – I talk to Tony Paige more than anyone, but Eddie sounded sort of lonesome on a miserable day, so I called. Eddie is another favorite of mine and it was good to chat with him. WFAN must be a good place to work, so many of their people stay around for a long, long time. Remember that summer day when Suzyn put them on the air? Seems like only yesterday…
Yes, I remember the moment also. They had a few good regular callers and a few wackos.
Seems like some have come on here with their rants. Probably young guys. Baseball is a game to enjoy and retreat to. Some fans take it to an extreme. At the end of the day win or lose, as long as the players gave their all. I do wish for a winning team to enjoy more.
As a voice of reason here, I look forward to reading your items.
I think there are a few posters here that have no idea about the game of baseball. For those of us who learned about it as a child (from Dad) we know that it is meant to be a quiet, simple yet complicated game. To quote from Bull Durham, “you throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball – and, sometimes it rains”. I’ve always loved that quote and have used it before.
You would think that we were at war with some of the other teams from some of the posts here.
I’m more interested in the person who wants to be a baseball player – and there are many who come to mind – among them – Tom Seaver, Keith Hernandez, Nolan Ryan, Ron Darling, who would have been successful elsewhere, but made fine careers in MLB – and I thank them.
Well said. Thank you.
Just a Few? LOL