13
2011
Why Reyes Won’t Be Traded
An article by 
There are two sides to the Jose Reyes fan argument. There are people like me that say trade him, and get something for him that has more of a guarantee than a compensation draft pick or two.
And then there are the people who want to pay Reyes whatever it takes to sign him and keep him in a Mets uniform, or they think Reyes would take some sort of hometown discount to stay.
If I haven’t been clear, I totally disagree with signing him. I think he and his agent cannot be fools, and cannot honestly think now is the time to give the Mets a hometown discount. Not when they need more starting pitching, more bullpen help, and possibly help in the outfield and behind the plate or at second base.
If this was 2006, yes I think Reyes would give them a hometown discount. However, this is Reyes only real chance at earning a huge contract and at the same time, it could be his only chance to go play somewhere where he can win a championship sooner rather than later.
Cliff Lee loved Texas, it was close to his home, they were willing to pay him a ton of money to stay put and he just went to the World Series, but at the end of the day he went where the money and the better chance to win was.
Carl Crawford came up through Tampa Bay, and I am sure had a great relationship with several of Tampa’s finest stars. However, at the end of the day, Boston can pay you more, secure your future better and has a better chance to win year after year than Tampa Bay does.
When you hit free agency, your agent should be able to figure out what your player’s worth is on an open market. It’s just like buying a house. When you buy a house, your agent shows you “comps” or comparables. These are houses like the ones you want to buy, and what they went for.
So if houses in your desired area went for $250,000 and are built similar to yours or yours is nicer, then your agent is going to tell you that you can’t lowball this offer. You can’t look around and see $250k and offer $180k. You may not get a chance at a second offer.
So with all of that said, the reason I don’t think signing Reyes is the best move for the franchise is because I do not trust that Jose Reyes who turns 29 years old in a few weeks will be a value to the Mets 4 years down the road.
Just as I do not expect Carl Crawford to be as valuable to Boston 4 years down the road, and just as the Mets didn’t expect a guy like Beltran to be as valuable in 2010 as he was in 2006.
The difference here is very simple. The Mets could sign Beltran to 7 years, $119m because they honestly felt within 3-4 years that they’d have as good of a chance as anybody to win a World Series.
If the Mets won a World Series within 2006-2009, nobody would care what Beltran was making right now or that he was hurt for so much of 2010.
Carl Crawford was signed to help win Boston a World Series within the next 3-4 years. Not to win one in his 6th or 7th year of his deal.
So the problem I have with Reyes is I do not see how the Mets can win a World Series within 2-3 years. There are just so many holes to fill, and not enough depth coming through the minors.
Sure we can be excited about some young talent, but we’re likely the only ones. Nobody around the league is saying “when Captain Kirk comes up, the Mets will be dangerous.”
Heck, the Phillies have a better club, spending as much money as the Mets and STILL have better game changing prospects. Domonic Brown who was injured in Spring Training is a better prospect than anybody the Mets have. He’s a game changer most likely.
So yes, I love watching Reyes play, but you don’t hand a player who relies on speed first at age 28 a 6 or 7 year deal if you can’t win it all within 3-4 years max. You don’t sign players to massive contracts to put fans in the seats. That is what franchises who are begging to fall into a black hole ass do.
So here is my prediction, and if I’m wrong, it’s okay. I’m just telling you what I think will happen.
I do not think Alderson will trade Reyes. I think he will trade Beltran, because that is a no brainer. However, I think trading Reyes makes Alderson the bad guy.
I expect Alderson already knows what it’s going to take to ink Reyes. He has to have had some sort of conversation right?
The problem Alderson runs into here is that he knows what it will take but he cannot tell us that right now. You can’t be a GM and tell Matt Cerrone that Reyes’ agent just told you on May 13th that if we want to keep him it will cost of 6 years, $100m.
So on the flip side of that, you can’t trade Reyes without looking like you have tried to sign him. Plus, no player is going to get traded mid-season while they are a free agent and work a deal out with their new team right away. Which means the prospect the Mets will net from dealing him, could have little upside, even less than a compensation pick. There’s just no way you can do that in my opinion.
And then lastly, you can’t trade Reyes and THEN tell the fans “look he told us he wanted $100m for 6 years and we just couldn’t do that right now.” Because a) half the fans won’t believe you and then b) the other half will say you play in New York, why can’t you sign him?
So the ONLY option Alderson has in my opinion is to get outbid. Because if Reyes goes somewhere like San Francisco and loves it there and then signs an extension which is less or around what we all expect the Mets can handle, then Alderson is in trouble.
What Alderson has to do is let this go into the Fall and Winter, and let Reyes make his own bed. He’s got to put it out there that they made a fair offer to Reyes, and if he wants to stay in New York, he can take it or leave it.
So when Reyes takes a much better offer from say the Phillies, the Angels or the Yankees (just for example), then Reyes becomes the bad guy who left New York for more money, and Alderson becomes the guy who did everything he could within reason to keep him here.
Alderson gets his 1 or 2 compensation picks, and moves on from this, and if Reyes signs with a team like Philadelphia, he gets booed every time he comes to New York.
I’m willing to be wrong here, but to me there’s really no other option in my view.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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I’m just curious about one thing, what team is paying him 100 million plus for 6 years? It’s not Boston, their budget is tapped due to the past off season and they need to focus on pitching. It’s not the Yankees, they have this guy named Jeter. It’s not the Phillies. They have a guy named Rolins that they want to resign and there have been a lot of public statements that Reyes is not a good fit in their club house. The Giants that outside of Barry Bonds, rarely hands out 100 million+/6 year contracts to position players. The Angles might be interested, but that’s a long shot.
So who is paying Reyes this huge salary that by the way, he’s never demanded. This speculation of his salary request is nothing more than a retread of the same story that was put out by the NY Post about 6 months ago. The only problem is that he can ask for a billion, doesn’t matter because the market dynamics have significantly changed and the teams willing to pay that type of salary are not available.
The bottom line is this. There is no reason what so ever at ALL that Reyes should not be resigned. None.
The only theoretical team I could see giving Reyes a contract like that is the SF Giants, IMO. After all, they handed Barry Zito that awful contract back in 2007. So see, they would do what they need to do to put themselves in a position to win…
they also upchucked a huge contract for Zito
“I’m just curious about one thing, what team is paying him 100 million plus for 6 years?”
First and foremost, if the Washington Nationals can afford to pay a complimentary player like Jayson Werth 7yrs/126m, I refuse to sit here and say other teams in MLB cannot afford Reyes if they are in a position to win a championship in a short window.
Boston is tapped out? In what world is this true? JD Drew is a free agent there’s $14m David Ortiz is in his final year there is $12m, Papelbon at $12m, Mike Cameron $7m, and Scutaro at $6m or a $3m buyout. Which you know if they have a shot at Reyes they are buying out Scutaro.
Thy have plenty of money to mess around with if they wanted to sign Reyes. Plenty.
I agree Philly is likely a longshot but they still have $11m from Ibanez, possibly $12m from Lidge, and $8.5m from Rollins. Ibanez+Rollins right there pays for Reyes and makes the Phillies a better team, plus they stick it to NY. why wouldn’t they do that?
You’re right Philly in the past didn’t like Jose… but its a different team now. They like winning more.
Sorry but you can’t tell me the Angels, White Sox, Giants, Tigers, Dodgers (if sold), Brewers, Braves or Reds can’t find the money to pay Reyes if they wanted him. Some of those teams may be set at SS, but you can bet there will be a market for Reyes.
I would think the Phillies would prefer Reyes to Rollins, who looks older than he is to me. Both are injury guys, but Rollins is slowing down, for some reason.
Just a note on the Werth deal….
His deal is one of those A-ROD type deals Texas made! Small market bidding too much thinking everyone wanted that guy! In two years minimum you will see the Nats trade Werth for prospects in a salary dump!
Just as texas had to do with A-Rod!
You’re just spewing major trash at the Mets. Are you really a Reyes/Mets fan? You’ve made every excuse for why the Mets can’t or shouldn’t keep Reyes and why all the other teams could get him. Your Boston reason is the same reason the Mets could sign him. Look at the expiring contracts.
Again Jessep, He’s our guy and we should sign him PERIOD! Why does every team have a chance to win within the next few years except the Mets? Why does every team have impact players coming from the minors except the Mets?
Look at he Red Sox line-up and tell me why they are so much better. They have JD Drew to our Beltran, Crawford to our Bay ( which even they wanted) Ellsbury to Pagan?, gonzales to Davis ( edge Boston but not really by much. Wait till the end of the year) i’ll give them second but i’m not really impressed, Reyes, Youk to our Wright? catchers they both have questions. So the only reason Boston is better is the pitching. So lets get pitching.
Why couldn’t we get pitching. We have the same chances as anyone to get pitching. in season or post season.
So the boost everyone elses team and try to look for solutions to our team. Remember the Mets didn’t hire a front office dream team to draft players only. that would be one dimensional. I can do that myself with great scouts.
The only reason that everyone speculates that the Mets are going in that direction is because of the owners money issues and possibly that the GM came from the the A’S where Moneyball started. To me this is not the place for this cost saving technique. Not with the Yankees as the big brother. So give it up Jessup please.
Chino:
“Look at he Red Sox line-up and tell me why they are so much better. They have JD Drew to our Beltran, Crawford to our Bay ( which even they wanted) Ellsbury to Pagan?, gonzales to Davis ( edge Boston but not really by much. Wait till the end of the year) i’ll give them second but i’m not really impressed, Reyes, Youk to our Wright? catchers they both have questions. So the only reason Boston is better is the pitching. So lets get pitching.
Why couldn’t we get pitching. We have the same chances as anyone to get pitching. in season or post season.”
This pretty muched summed up the fact you cannot possibly look at this without rose colored glasses on. Crawford and Bay are different types of players, if you want to compare Crawford to somebody, compare his talent to Reyes. He’s a better baseball player than Jose Reyes.
The mere fact you give a “edge but not by much” to AGone over Ike Davis really made my head spin. Are you telling me talent for talent you don’t trade Davis for Gonzalez? Give me a break!
Did you just try and say Ellsbury isn’t better than Pagan? Do you watch other baseball games outside of SNY ever?
Oh and I love how you’re not impressed at 2B with a guy who won MVP in 2008. That’s adorable.
Also SS Jed Lowrie is no slouch right now and you can give Ortiz the nod over Jason Bay easily with the bat since Bay came to NY.
I just cannot even fathom how somebody can come here and act as though the Mets have a better lineup than Boston?
If you’re question is would I trade today Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, Murphy, Davis, Wright for Drew, Ellsbury, Crawford, Pedroia, AGone and Youk… my answer is “In a new york minute”
And there isn’t a single educated or reasonable baseball person who would disagree with me.
If you’re question is would I trade today Beltran, Pagan, Reyes, Murphy, Davis, Wright for Drew, Ellsbury, Crawford, Pedroia, AGone and Youk… my answer is “In a new york minute”
That Statement there explains it! You should just be a Boston fan. Are you crazy? You’re so quick to point out career stats to make your point but to fail to look at what the Mets players such as Wright have done. None of the Red Sox with the exception of the Papi of old match up to Wright overall. Check it out and maybe since you apparently have more time than me, you should post them.
This pretty muched summed up the fact you cannot possibly look at this without rose colored glasses on. Crawford and Bay are different types of players, if you want to compare Crawford to somebody, compare his talent to Reyes. He’s a better baseball player than Jose Reyes.
I was originally comparing position by position but we can do like players for like players. To me and many other mets fan or baseball fans in general think Reyes is the more important and exciting players of the two. They both have comparable stats but Reyes plays shortstop and plays in NY. Crawford played for Tampa Bay?! And played left field at that. You know who plays left field? Players who can’t play shortstop or centerfield. Let’s see how he handles Boston before we say more great things about this guy.
Did you just try and say Ellsbury isn’t better than Pagan? Do you watch other baseball games outside of SNY ever?
First of all I watch plenty of baseball that’s why I’m not easily impressed. Also, I didn’t say that Pagan was better but Ellsbury get real. He’s done nothing for me to give him more credit than Pagan. This is the guy that wouldn’t come back until he was 110%. His teammates’ and management don’t even like him. He’s a decent player but who cares. He’s insignificant. They’re the same to me.
Oh and I love how you’re not impressed at 2B with a guy who won MVP in 2008. That’s adorable.
I wouldn’t have given him the MVP. He got that because he’s an overachiever and no one else stood out but you’re right for a change. He is a good player and I kind of like this type of player. As a matter of fact I would mind guys like this on our team but he’s not an out of this world player like it seems you’re trying to portray him to be. Anybody can get those types of stats. They’re a dime a dozen. Utley or Cano now they’re no brainers.
Also SS Jed Lowrie is no slouch right now and you can give Ortiz the nod over Jason Bay easily with the bat since Bay came to NY.
Jed Lowrie? Did he finally start doing something to get the starting nod? It only took for the ex Met utility minor leaguer to go on the disable list for an extended period so that Lowrie could do his thing and is still early. Done with him. As for Ortiz, yes you’re right he is a better hitter than our pitchers but slightly. He’s washed up! I like the way you sneak the DH in there (imitation baseball). Bay? The jury is still out but at least we can get something for him I don’t think you’re getting a bag of balls for Ortiz. Bay hasn’t had the opportunity yet. We’ll see after this year.
The mere fact you give an “edge but not by much” to AGone over Ike Davis really made my head spin. Are you telling me talent for talent you don’t trade Davis for Gonzalez? Give me a break!
I knew this would get you going. Another player that I like as oppose to Crawford which I don’t. What I meant when I said not by much is that at the end of the day (Omar) when you compare what the two will contribute to their team wouldn’t be that different. I know Ike hasn’t been around much but early indications show that he’s a stud. He is really proving it. There are other hyped players that I’ve mentioned in the pass that are not meeting up to expectations but Ike is. So if you come up with what AGONE will give you and compare to what Ike is projecting I don’t know if I would pay that much money for the difference.
Now don’t for get David Wright which you so cleverly omitted. I guess you couldn’t favorably compare Youk to Wright so you left it out. We win here. Youk is another player I like but Wright is better.
Well I think my work is done here but my point is that our players have value also. We have a nice group here that with some creative thinking and some money I believe could accomplish something. We Mets fan (not me) get discouraged because we watch the team everyday and so we see the flaws because we care and they become more evident but other teams have the same problem we just don’t pay attention. Our media also creates ridiculous havoc in our fan base. We believe everything they say like it’s the truth (read Duaner Sanchez comments on what really happened with the taxi). It’s like when your kids refuse to talk to you about what is happening in their life and we begin to speculate and assume the worst. Take a chill pill and enjoy the team.
Get Pitchers!!
Chino:
“None of the Red Sox with the exception of the Papi of old match up to Wright overall”
— Wow that’s pretty easy. Are you telling me nobody on Boston’s team can hit better than a .837 or .856 OPS in the last 2 years? AGone has, Youk has, Pedroia beat him 1 of 2 years, and Ortiz has a better year than Wright last year. That was a pretty easy challenge.
The fun part is Wright is supposed to be the Mets best player. He would have to fight to be Boston’s 3rd best.
Re: Ellsbury v. Pagan
Pagan’s career year last year isn’t better than Ellsbury’s 2009 season. Ellsbury was hurt last year and this year Jacoby is looking back to form. I’d trade Pagan for Ellsbury faster than you can reply to this message.
“As for Ortiz, yes you’re right he is a better hitter than our pitchers but slightly” — Yeah, well except for the fact he had a better year than Wright last year and this year thus far. So maybe Capuano should play third?
Nobody’s saying we don’t have players. The Mets have players, but they aren’t as good as other teams especially when you consider the holes left at C, 2B, LF if Bay stays asleep and then RF when Beltran leaves.
And oh by the way…
136G, .305AVG, .413OBP, .548SLG, 27HR, 94RBI, All-Star, 6th in MVP
102G, .307AVG, .411OBP, .564SLG, 19HR, 62RBI
144G, .307AVG, .390OBP, .447SLG, 10HR, 72RBI, All-Star
157G, .283AVG, .354OBP, .503SLG, 29HR, 103RBI, All-Star, 24th in MVP
Top stats are Youk. Explain to me how he isn’t a better player than David Wright? In Youk’s 102 Game season last year, he outperformed David in David’s 144 Game down year.
And in Youk’s 2009 season, he out performed Wright’s 2010 season.
So I’m not sure how you can tell me Wright is better. Wright’s better to you because he wears a Mets uniform.
I love it. I put it on a platter for you. Your eyes must have opened up wide when you realized that you could just give me the last two years to match them up. Good research. It’s great how you just ignored everything Wright had done when times were great with line-up support and shared leadership with teammates that actually help produce runs because they were healthy. Go ahead and post your numbers for his worst two years it’s OK but look deeper Simba. I also said overall. Make sure you look at runs, stolen bases and total bases ok, good.I would post numbers but you can look them up. Oh wait you did.
Also,who said Wright is suppose to be the best player. If you really want to know there is a 5 tool player that is paid a lot of money and he’s on the Mets too.
Steroid papi, his stats don’t count anyway. His real stats were with the Twins and you know how that ended. Then he met Manny and the rest is history.Another thing, he didn’t have a better year than Wright. You must have been looking through those glasses that you talked about. Put Wright in the same slot last year for the Red Sox and he would probably have one the MVP.
Ellsbury, hmm what can I say that I haven’t already said. nothing. to me they’re the same player. one has more experience than the other by one year.
look we could do this forever. I like the Mets and You like all the other teams. I can live with that. You’ve made up your mind about all the Mets players and so did I. we’re not going to change anything. If the Mets are smart they’ll keep their young superstars and get some pitching. If not they’ll do what you suggest and is to go backwards and start again. I think that that’s ridiculous but I’m just a fan. My hope is to get the fans to support the Mets and give the players that home advantage that they should have. You know be a good fan. I don’t run things there.
chino:
“It’s great how you just ignored everything Wright had done when times were great with line-up support and shared leadership with teammates that actually help produce runs because they were healthy”
Explain something to me. The Red Sox had injuries last year, how’d they do offensively? How’d Youkilis do? You’re right. I don’t look at 3 years ago when a player has been healthy for the last 2. If you’re going to sit here and tell me David Wright is the same hitter today that he was in 2008 then you’re just lost.
You’re allowed a bad year or an injured year. But 2 bad healthy years in a row? Give me a break.
“Steroid papi, his stats don’t count anyway. His real stats were with the Twins and you know how that ended.”
So are you saying Ortiz took steroids last year and this year? Because I’d have to think he’s been tested and I don’t remember hearing about a 50 game suspension? That’s so weird.
Saying other teams are better than the Mets is not ditching my fan support.
The bottom line is talent for talent money/age aside: Ellsbury is better than Pagan, Pedroia is better than our AAA 2B’s, AGone is better than Ike, Youk is better than Wright, and Crawford is better than Bay.
Saying otherwise is merely silly. It’s ridiculous, I don’t see why you lie to yourself and set yourself up for failure. Are the Mets offensively built better than most? Yes. Are they built better than the upper echelon teams in MLB? Absolutely not.
Heck, Boston scored the 2nd most runs in baseball last year WITHOUT AGone, and without Pedroia and Ellsbury for much of the year.
Jesseppppppp! While I agree that I think the Mets would be right to hold onto Reyes at the trade deadline and till the end of the season (if you think about it, he would be a half-year rental for a contending team – if they want to negotiate an extension the Mets would need to get a lot in return plus a top PITCHER not just a prospect, as an example, and I just don’t see it being beneficial to the other team. I would be happy with getting outbid, if it comes to that, and getting draft picks), I have to disagree on a few points you’ve made. One is that using Lee as a benchmark I think is a bad example. He signed not to win a championship with the Phillies, well, okay maybe he did but you also have to think about the hitters he’d be facing in the NL East. If you looked at his numbers against AL East teams, they were abysmal. He would have been chased out of the Bronx with pitchforks and torches, plus he took less money, same years (I think — i could have them mixed up) than the AL hitting heavy Rangers. And also, I highly doubt Jayson Werth signed a gargantuan contract with the Nats because he seriously thought they would win, like, ever in his time there. IT’S THE MONEY SILLY!! That said, you have to think about the bigger picture — Jose Reyes is looking for a pay day, championships are indeed second because, I mean come on look at the evidence. A-Rod went to the Rangers, there was no hope they’d ever win, it took him nearly 20 years to win his first championship getting the largest contract in sports! While I agree on the overall thesis that Reyes shouldn’t be traded midseason (I think that would be dumb, personally), to suggest that it is only the money and championships that draw them to leaving is not correct IMO. There’s also personal gain (where they can break personal records and become stars), I have to think championships come second though for a team sports since contracts are definitely an “I” part of sports.
I think the Giants can sanely look at Reyes and say: “We don’t need him to win a championship.” And who could argue? That is the thing with Reyes: a lot of speed, a lot of flash, and a lot of ‘chicken with its head cut off’ baseball instincts. If he had just improved some since he came up, but he is essentially the same player. He has not seemed to gain any wisdom from his experiences. Let’s see where he is on July 4. Will he still be over .300? Will his OBP be teetering in the .333 range? Will he be off the DL? Call me crazy, but I would trade Reyes and Beltran now. Before they both either declline or go on the DL. Problem is, teams are not trading now.
I agree with trading Beltran, I feel like trading Reyes is sort of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face, personally. I hear what you are saying but if the Mets are totally on a downward spiral, out of contention, etc etc that should be the ONLY reason why one should trade Reyes at that point and hope for the best. Anyway, as for Giants, I think that Reyes would be a good fit for them only because they have no star “players.” Forget their pitching staff which is phenomenal. They haven’t had a drawing star position player since Barry Bonds (for better or worse). I think they’d totally spend the $$.
Oh, Reyes would upgrade their team. No question. I just meant he is not necessary for their success. He is a flashy player but he does not have to be on your team for you to win. The last 8 WS champs did not even have a Jose Reyes play-alike on their roster. Having said that, the reason I think the mets let him go is because the new philosophy is not to overpay. That is the essence of Moneyball anyway. If he were to offer himself at a reasonable contract for say, 4 years, they might take a bite.
We have not heard anything out of Jose Reyes side or the Mets on his contract. Newspapers and bloggs are speculating on what it would take without knowing what he will be asking for.
Why don’t you do some real research?
You wrote: So with all of that said, the reason I don’t think signing Reyes is the best move for the franchise is because I do not trust that Jose Reyes who turns 29 years old in a few weeks will be a value to the Mets 4 years down the road.
Jose Reyes is 27 and turns 28 in a few weeks, NOT 29.
Anything to strengthen your argument I guess, such bias.
You also wrote: I’m willing to be wrong here, but to me there’s really no other option in my view.
There is never more than one option for the closed-minded.
Memo to Sandy Alderson: Sign Jose Reyes or the fans will run you out of this town on a rail. Dont underestimate the fans and a media that is just waiting for you to make this fatal flaw of letting Reyes go to the Yankees, Phillies or any other team in the PRIME of his career.
Maniac: Sorry for the typo on his age. I’m sure that totally ruins my blog right? I fixed it for you.
Memo to Maniac: It’s about winning baseball games not dressing players up in my team’s favorite uniform. I’ll buy a ticket to see Keith Hernandez suit up tomorrow, doesn’t mean its a good idea.
Ticket sales increase when win totals increase. The fan base will get over Jose Reyes if in 3 years they are a very relevant team.
‘…I do not trust that Jose Reyes who turns 29 years old in a few week…’
Um…Reyes is currently 27. He’ll be 28 mid next month.
I see the age mistake made all the time in these type posts about Reyes.
Are you all using the same flawed database? Or does it just make the argument sound better having him one year older?
I understand your argument, one I’ve read a few times already.
I agree about a mid season trade. No way are we getting back what he’s probably worth b/c he’s a 1/2 year rental.
Taking the comp draft pick is letting him walk cheap too.
The only other option is to try and sign him and we all know that’s going to take big money and years.
Anyway look at this, it’s a losing proposition.
Look at what the Rangers got for a half year rental of Tex, or the Indians for CC, or the Jays for Halladay, or the M’s for Lee. They were all rentals and Reyes is a star at the same level and could net the Mets a huge return, though I would prefer they keep him. If all we get is the first round pick from a team who most likey will select 25-30, this would be the worst move in Mets history since they traded Tom Seaver.
Actually the more I think about it, the argument of this blogger is the absolute worse case scenario for the Mets. It would set the organization back 7-10 years. To just let Reyes walk for a late round draft pick? Maybe if you all took a look at DePo’s only two MLB drafts you would see what a collossal mistake this would be. Not one major leaguer!
Trading Reyes would be a far better option than just letting him walk. But of course to this closed-minded blogger getting the late picks is the only option.
What a crock!
Right, letting Reyes walk for a late 1st round pick would be a disaster……i don’t even want to think about that happening.
“if you all took a look at DePo’s only two MLB drafts”
But I’m the one that has to do research right?
You realize DePodesta worked with Sandy Alderson in San Diego and during the time he was there over half of the Padres “top prospects” came from drafts they either worked on together, Alderson worked on alone or DePodesta worked on his own in 2010?
I mean you do realize DePodesta has worked in baseball after he worked for the Dodgers right? And you realize Sandy Alderson is not going to fall asleep during the ammy draft and not give any input on the organization he runs.
You do realize that right?
Reyes is a star at the same level as Tex, Lee, Halladay or CC? Really? In what planet does Jose Reyes mean more to a team looking to win a title than Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia? How many times have you hear “speedy SS’s win championships”
When Tex was traded in a bad trade by the way (see other GMs learn from other people’s mistakes… they don’t just try and copy them) Tex was hitting .297, getting on base 39% of the time, slugging over .500 when he was traded.
Reyes to date has had ONE full season that compare to Tex’s history prior to his trade.
The mere fact you think Reyes is as big of a superstar as Tex just proves this conversation will go nowhere.
Tex is not that good. Remember he did nothing when A-ROD wasn’t around that first season and he’s been very slow every year that he’s played for the Yankees. Who couldn’t drive in a lot of run in that line-up. Look at their RBi’s right now and no one’s hitting.
I’m not even thinking about trading Reyes…..or anybody right now. I’m thinking about what SP’s that might available that we can get – is there anybody good that could be available? I’m not giving up on the season this early, and I REALLY like the lineup we have. And if we add a good pitcher, and get Santana back at some point, we could have a good shot at making the playoffs.
Exactly,
It’s May 13 and the Mets are 3 games under all I’m thinking about what we can do to stay afloat, what to do to get Bay hitting HRs again, what kind of SP we can get, & things like that. Not dealing anyone yet and besides if the Mets get a partner who takes 49% like I heard could happen then they may have the money to try and sign Reyes.
I’m thinking about winning games right now.
Paul DePodesta – Vice President, Player Development & Scouting
This is his draft!
Do you really want to let Jose Reyes go with DePo behind the wheel?
Look at his top ten rounds from the only two drafts DePo had as a GM.
2004 1 Dodgers Scott Elbert LHP
.
2004 1 Dodgers *Blake DeWitt 2B
.
2004 1 Dodgers *Justin Orenduff (minors) RHP
.
2004 2 Dodgers Blake Johnson (minors) RHP
.
2004 3 Dodgers Cory Dunlap (minors) 1B
.
2004 4 Dodgers Luis Guerra (minors) RHP
.
2004 5 Dodgers John Raglani (minors) OF
.
2004 6 Dodgers Daniel Batz (minors) 1B
.
2004 7 Dodgers Barry Richmond (minors) OF
.
2004 8 Dodgers Carlos Medero-Stullz (minors) C
.
2004 9 Dodgers David Nicholson (minors) 3B
.
2004 10 Dodgers Cory Wade RHP
.
2005 1 Dodgers *Luke Hochevar RHP
.
2005 2 Dodgers *Ivan De Jesus (minors) SS
.
2005 2 Dodgers Joshua Wall (minors) RHP
.
2005 3 Dodgers Sergio Pedroza (minors) OF
.
2005 4 Dodgers Josh Bell 3B
.
2005 5 Dodgers Jon Meloan RHP
.
2005 6 Dodgers Brent Leach LHP
.
2005 7 Dodgers Christopher Hobdy (minors) RHP
.
2005 8 Dodgers David Horlacher (minors) RHP
.
2005 9 Dodgers Michael Davitt (minors) RHP
.
2005 10 Dodgers Trayvon Robinson (minors) OF
Yeah, great idea! Let Reyes walk and maybe we can get the next Blake Dewitt!
That is one really poor piece of work. To be fair the 2004 draft was weak. The 2005 draft was very top heavy and then weak and the Dodgers gave up their #1 for Lowe but they also got two extra supplemental round picks, a first and a second by losing Beltre and Quantril……I do know that DeJesus was considered a big time reach. It doesn’t give you a lot of confidence in DePodesta.
I wonder if he’s ever been asked about this draft and what he had to say about it. Certainly someone should have questioned him on it. Let’s at least hope that McDonald is good at what he does.
Rarely following the money has been the wrong course to take. I can’t say if the Mets will or won’t trade Reyes Jessep.
I would hope that if he is traded it’s only after an exhaustive attempt at trying to resign him 1st. In the end what I expect is Reyes to go where the most money is at least until I see him do otherwise.
LET’S GO METS!!!
Well Jessup as I said in the other thread…
If you look at Reyes from the MONEY perspective alone then no you won’t be re-signing him.
But if you look at it from the Survival side then you almost HAVE TO sign him.
If Sandy re-signs Reyes he will have a bit more time to rebuild the franchise.
If he doesn’t then he has 3 (maybe 4) years to win a WS or he’s gone! Not my timetable but NY Fans and Media! The average lifespan of a GM here is 5 years (even if they get you to a WS!)
Is that enough time to rebuild via the draft?
IS trading Reyes or collecting Compensatory on him going to rebuild us in that time frame?
I would say NO!
So EVEN if Sandy does a good job restocking the pond he will never see any success it eventually has. He will be working someplace else!
Your post makes BUSINESS sense, BUT…only for a team who has a devoted Fanbase who do not Boycott games or refuse to support the team with their hard earned bucks until they do something good. Reyes does at least draw some fans!
In regard to Baseball sense your idea to let him walk instead of trade is sound. I personally think it is better than finding a partner to trade with. AT least you get to pick from a large pool of potential prospects instead of a much smaller set from a team trade. You can only get their BEST player back and he might not be worth it when compared to who is the BEST in the draft.
But I don’t see where Reyes leaves under any conditions this year and Sandy lives to run the organization past 2014 a mere three seasons away!
He would have to be PERFECT in every selection. and I think it is impossible to be that perfect in 3 years and win a WS.
And the TEAM has really nothing to do with it.
If the Yankees failed to sign Jeter this year and they missed the playoffs guess who else would be looking for a job despite the fact of his impressive track record!
It is the Nature of this city to want immediate signs or get out and get someone who can! This town and media is pretty much Steinbrenner like in it’s childish penchant for winning or getting mad! REAL MAD! HEADS WILL ROLL kind of Mad!
If we lived in a one team town like Atlanta or Philadelphia then you could play it slow and pantient and survive the media and fan screams. Cause as a one team town there is no other baseball option to go to just to spite the team!
Sandy if fighting a war not just with the rest of Baseball but with the Media and fans as well. Because they can go see the Yankees anytime they desire to see winning baseball. Call it Baseball’s version of Urban Warfare!
Every pass of wind is criticized scrutinized and measured.
You can’t get away with trading away your best players (or letting them walk) and not have it thrown into your face after every game you lose!
Just look at what happened this year when Feliciano and Takahashi were allowed to walk. I mean they were not even major contributors and look at all the heat the FO took for it.
So while what your saying makes a ton of sense from a business and baseball perspective Sandy’s biggest enemy right now is time!
He needs to give NY enough hope that they keep coming and don’t complain while he goes around behind their backs and rebuilds his team under the radar!
If that means spending Wilpon money so be it! It’s their money not ours and I don’t see any point in saving money for them if it’s not going to help the product!
And no matter how you slice Reyes’ departure, It in the end will not make THIS team better, Maybe 2014′s (If your REALLY lucky 2013!) but on the whole we will lose even MORE games than we lose now!
While reyes isn’t a kid anymore he also isn’t an old guy either!
He should be in his mid 30′s by the time the contract runs out and I will point out that a guy like Ozzie Smith didn’t slow down much when he aged and what little he did was made up for with a much better bat as he matured.
Smith started off as a .250 Hitter and eventually became a .280-.300 hitter as he got older.
If you want to see a team rebuild in Matland then some sacrifices have to be made. And I’m not talking sacrificing players just money.
Pay Reyes, Keep the media dna Fans off your back while you rebuild the franchise and if Reyes fails to earn the contract you can always justify it and blame Reyes, Just as everyone does now with Pedro and Delgado! Beltran would be on that list too if he hadn’t been hitting the way he has this year!
You know back on Opening Day Jeff Wilpon sat down with Francesa to talk Mets. I know many feel poorly regarding Wilpon’s credibility but for what it’s worth he did say the money from the sale of the team would go straight to the team and he also said in a round about way depending on how you view it that even with Reyes payroll will be less next year than it was this year.
Here are 2 excerpts.
Francesa: What would you say about all the stuff that’s been said about the Wilpon family this winter?
J. Wilpon: I think its been very unfair what, how my dad my uncle have been portrayed that’s not who they are they did not
know anything about madoff and that’s really all I should say. The other thing with the sale is just so everybody understands
all the money coming from that sale proceeds is not going to pay some trustee or some settlement. The money is staying in the
team to stabilize the team and to make sure we have operating funds to deal with the team.
Francesa: The money that comes in is specifically Met money?
J. Wilpon: For the team.
*************************************************************
Francesa: How would you describe how the franchise is?
J. Wilpon: That we lost some money last year. Were gonna lose some more money this year and then things should turn around.
We got a lot of contracts coming off at the end of this year even putting guys back on, and a number of them if Frankie vests
and different things happen with Jose and others we still gonna be much less than this year going in starting off.
*************************************************************
http://nyc.podcast.play.it/media/d0/d0/d0/dX/dB/dX/d0/XBX0_3.MP3
Even if you don’t believe Jeff all you have to do is the Math to know what he said was true!
If you sign Reyes all your really doing is giving him the money your saving on Beltran!
I think all thise trade and let walk crap is really about people’s desire to come up with a create DEALS to pass the time of losing!
Look at what we might lose at the end of this year…
Reyes
Beltran
How many prospects will it take to replace that in our lineup? When will it be ready to add that back?
Next year? When Wright will be the next victim in the WHY SPEND if we CAN’T WIN mindset?
The Payroll is already going to gain 20 Mil just on the savings of Perez and Castillo alone!
Beltran goes what does that save us? Roughly another 20 Mil per year?
Thats 40 Mil! Is Reyes going to cost us 40 Mil per year? Really? No even if he gets Beltran Money our Payroll will still go down significantly! Enough to eventually sign an Ace pitcher if we needed one!
If we were talking about signing some NEW FA then yes you might be right in saying don’t spend the money yet we aren’t ready.
But to say lets not maintain what good baseball we have in the name of saving money for the Wilpons then really what is the goal of the FO to keep the Wilpons money safe or to put the best baseball team they can afford on the field and hope they can rebuild fast enough to complement it and eventually replace it?
“Just look at what happened this year when Feliciano and Takahashi were allowed to walk. I mean they were not even major contributors and look at all the heat the FO took for it.”
Is somebody really going to come here and tell me that the Mets should have paid those guys what they made in free agency?
Let me ask this question.
For those that want to sign Reyes
At what point do you stop? There has to be a year and number in which you hit the brakes and say I don’t think so. So what is it?
Is 6 years too many? 7 years too many? $18m a year too much? $19m a year?
This idea that you just “pay him” doesn’t work. Not for this team, not right now. So where do YOU draw the line because I’m telling you now, there are plenty of teams who can and who would outbid for Reyes. So where is your line in the sand?
“Is somebody really going to come here and tell me that the Mets should have paid those guys what they made in free agency?”
Dude I’m not saying they were right, But look at the posts at the time Feliciano and Takahashi were let go!
Thats about the same time the trashing and ‘GENIUS” posts about Sandy started on this site!
“At what point do you stop? There has to be a year and number in which you hit the brakes and say I don’t think so. So what is it?”
Why does there have to be a year that happens?
Because Beane was such a stunning success NOT spending money?
How much affect does spending have on the BASEBALL side of it?
Does spending 180 Million make you play worse?
Does spending 80 Mil make them play better?
The only thing the Fans count are Wins and Losses! Your counting MONEY!
Why? Because you think the Wilpons don’t have any? Do you think the Fans care they would love to see the WIlpons go before reyes!
So what you are saying is you should count the money and I do not fully disagree with that Sandy does have to do that but if he does he will get fired befofre your suggested plan has a chance to succeed!
We Carried George Foster and Dave Kingman’s salary throughout the 80′s while Cashen rebuilt the farm and HIS CORE!
We should probably carry Wright and reyes’ salary until Sandy has built HIS!
The Fans will never get to the place where you are which is namely OK they suck but they at least are financially responsible!
The fans don’t care about the team’s financial stability. All they care about are Wins vs Losses!
And if the Losses trump the Wins then the only reason to go to a game is to see stars which despite what we think about reyes’ and Wright’s worth over the next decade fit that bill for the time being.
And if they go and we continue to lose all that money you saved will not be enough to make it good again and put people in the seats.
So if by some miracle Sandy does last long enough to see his Core get promoted he won’t have the money to go and buy the few remaining pieces he will need to put the people back into the seats!
Metsie: I think you missed my point.
A baseball player has value. That value is translated into a contract. You can’t tell me that there is no price to ridiculous for Jose Reyes. Heck, the Cardinals are struggling with Albert Pujols.
My question is if Reyes’ agent says $130m for 7 years. Do you think you gotta let him walk? Or do you sign him for that? Realistically now…take your fan goggles off for a second.
Because we keep talking about how easy it seems to be to sign Jose Reyes. Here’s breaking news. He’s not signed right now. If he hits the open market, can the Mets sign him? Of course… but it will be a heck of a lot tougher and at some point you have to walk away and make a decision that is best for the future of your ballclub at a business level.
I’m for trading him, I’m not going to throw my hands in the air if he’s here in September though. And if he is, my opinion is that Sandy will not bid against himself and if another team wants to outbid him, then he did everything he could.
Just because his name is Jose Reyes doesn’t mean he’s worth infinity dollars and years.
And your missing my point…
Sure it might be rediculous to pay Reyes that amount of money.
Who is this rediculous amount hurting?
The Wilpons? Or the Fans?
I say it hurts neither because Reyes might generate his salary with the Ticket Sales and Merchandising alone!
So your not rediculous in your spending… Just rediculous in the team you are fielding because it’s all average or below average players until the farm is ready to change that. 3 or four years.
Will Sandy still be here if we are the Pirates for 3 years?
Saving money is great provided you are spending EXCESS money you don’t need to achieve the goal. But thats not the case here!
The Money invested is the only thing keeping the team afloat at all right now.
Ok Shed Beltran and Hell shed Bay as well!
But not the two BEST and most WORTH the money on the entire team!
All your trying to do is save someone else’s money! A person you (and many others) don’t really like anyway!
If it was YOUR money then what you say would be true!
If it was a porsche and not a baseball player I would say yes you really don’t need to spend that much.
But the ability to draw people to the park is the biggest problem Sandy Faces and not winning in the name of not WASTING money is not going to endear him to the media and masses and instead they will call for his head.
And NOTHING stops a rebuild dead in it’s tracks than firing the guy who started the plan and did not get a chance to see it through!
The new guy will have his own plan, all those players you were planning for will be gone, BAD deals will be made and all you did was change the name on the office not the complextion of the team!
And whatever you think Reyes is going to be overpaid will seem like a bargain if he stays healthy by the time the end of the contract runs out.
Because EVERY good baseball player gets paid MORE than he is actually worth and not signing Reyes isn’t going to change that it’s just going to leave you to spend even MORE later on to get back what you had and sent away!
At some point you have to see a bad business decision. If you’re paying a guy $20m a year and you can pay 3 guys $7.5m a year to be in your lineup, then wouldn’t you rather have 3 quality but not superstars over 1 superstar and 2 minor leaguers?
I mean, I don’t know what the answer is. But you have to have a budget, and you have to draw the line somewhere.
you are absolutely right on this Jessep. Metsie (and a lot of others) doesn’t understand that Jose Reyes doesn’t put people in the seats, winning does.
You going to win more games without Reyes slappy?
Than what year will we win more games? 1962?
Why can’t we win with Jose Reyes?
You guys are making it sound like that trading him is the only way to win lol. The reason why people want to sign him is because they think that he helps us win – duh.
and they are right by saying that.
So your idea is about BUSINESS not BASEBALL correct?
ABOUT money not wins and losses?
about CHEAPNESS not SKILL
about PENNIES not PLAYERS
This is what I’m trying to get across to you…
It’s great for the Accountant! But the baseball will suffer and now matter HOW GOOD of a BUSINESS DECISION is was it will cause Sandy to get fired!
DO you get that?
The Fans will REVOLT if the plan is to save wilpons money and not save our summer entertainment!
Makes a ton of Business sense No Doubt!
But people don’t want the Mets to do good Business…
They want the team to WIN GAMES!
And if they don’t WIN and have players around that at least gives them hope they might they might give Sandy time to replace them all!
You have to admit that if Reyes AND Beltran go this year then we are going to be even worse than we were in April no matter if we had the Phillies rotation because the only bats in your lineup are Wright and Davis…
And this time next year someone will say we should get rid of them too because it doesn’t make sense paying them market value if we are not going to win with them anyway!
Let me turn it around on you….
At what point have you SUCKED enough talent OFF the team to be ready to rebuild from the draft?
Do you have to get rid of EVERY PLAYER Who is successful, Just the top two or three?
At one point do you say I have PURGED ENOUGH of the things that make me good, Lets start the rebuild?
Cause really thats all your doing!
Collecting a lot of crap your going to try and make good before the Drafts pan out, The fans abandon you, the media calls for your head, and your fired!
People are resigned to Beltran going…
Resign Reyes this year and insist on the exclusion of a No Trade clause.
Then you can trade him in two years before the contract runs out, Starts to look fairly reasonable to the market value and get something at a time when you know which of those CORE position you need to fill.
SO the Wilpons will have 20Mil less to spend.
Unless your jeff who else cares if the Wilpon money was spent? As long as you can see some good baseball!
I predict this with certainty.
If Sandy doesn’t resign Reyes and he does not rebuild a WS winner in the next two years he will get fired!
Another Long Term Plan KILLED before it even starts!
It’s not really good for the accountant either. 2,500 tickets sold at an avg spending between ticket, concessions and parking, merchandise ect of $100.00 = $250,000 X 81 = TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS. Does the best player on the team attract 2,500 people to Citi Field? You bet your *** he does AND HE PAYS FOR HIMSELF. AND HE KEEPS THE METS RELEVANT.
If we could only extend one of our two homegrown All-Stars, Reyes is by far the best choice and we’d have them both, together, side by side for another couple off years. We also have Murphy, Lutz and Flores who could slide into 3B if need be and NO ONE at SS unless you want to go with Tejada but Ruben doesn’t field or hit anywhere near what Jose does and forget about running the bases.
Pagan CF, Murphy 2B, Wright 3B, Davis 1B, Bay LF, Fern RF, Tejada SS, Thole C is a lineup where in any one game your only gonna get two spots with a good game. Creating runs is going to be even more important without Beltran in it.
5/100 cost not one red cent, anything over that would be in the gray area but one should always gamble on the guy you know, the guy in his prime, the guy who’s the real face of the team on the field anyway. Guarantee him a buyout of another 5 M as a club option to sweeten it. Give him 10 teams we can’t trade him to before he becomes a 10 and 5, promise not to offer arb if he’s a type A but 5 years? It’s a no brainer. It pays for itself. After all most people here thought Castillo was a great idea for 4 years at 32 and Alou was a great idea at 40 and I know most you loved Vaughn and Alomar but not your own 28 year old?
Your getting what I’m Saying Jessup is trying to be LOGICAL which I don’t have any problem with but I’m trying to point out that Met Fans, and the NY Media is ANYTHING but LOGICAL!
Way more Human than Vulcan!
And if Sandy doesn’t at least SHOW those fols that he is willing to spend money on good players (even his own) then they will not look at the LOGIC of the situation they will emotionally respond with a Defarge like Sensibility!
They won’t look at the Minors, like deeper LOGICAL mined folks will. They will only look at the club they are going to pay to see and most likely decide it is not worth going UNTIL someone gets fired!
Collins as good a job as I think he is doing will at best only get three before they start blaming him as the first scapegoat!
Anyone remember Bamberger? What did he last a few months?
And Jessup is thinking BUSINESS but forgets this is not a business of SPORT it is the business of ENTERTAINMENT!
there is a lot more than just the salary spent, Star Power is a key ingredient.
You wouldn’t go see Streetcar named desire on broadway if some average actor was playing the lead role!
You go to see HOW a STAR does what anyone can do but STARS by their very nature can do BETTER!
If we lost the gate draw from both Reyes AND Beltran (and Beltran definitly draws too!) then next year the LOGICAL decision would be we can’t afford Wright and Bay either. The year after that Ike will be the issue as talk of what his contract is going to look like at some point because he is nearing arbitration and free agency.
Bottom line the only reason to rebuild the Minors is to get a team that WILL draw in the future. But you STILL have to draw some people meantime.
I am convinced Beltran will go. In his case the knees are too risky for a 3 or 4 year deal which is wht he is likely to get elsewhere. If we were in the AL I would resign him in a heartbeat!
Bay could go…That would be a decent savings. He is not the guy we thought he was going to be. He could change that but until he does he is not a major Draw to the stadium.
The way I look at this is pretty passive but straight forward.
Listen to what the offers are. If and only IF the deal is just way too good to refuse you think about it. But until that deal is presented I work on the assumption that I will negotiate with Reyes, See where he is at, Offer him the Arbitration that gets us Picks if he signes elsewhere and tell him if you really want to play in NY then at least give us the option of matching whatever you get offerred before you sign.
I don’t need a discount from him he is worth what the Market says he is worth!
What I want is the respect that if you SAY you want to play here you give me a chance to match any offer so I can make a decision without wasting a lot of time haggling price.
Don’t care about the how much the money isn’t important. Excluding a No Trade clause will be the only thing we need to have in any contract signed by Jose!
And if he wants a No trade clause then he has to take a lot less on the backend!
Now, if we’re talking 7/150, that’s quite a gamble but If we could keep it in the 5/90 realm it’s a no brainer to keep Jose for baseball reasons, revenue reasons and Fan reasons.
Baseball reasons: We have no SS who can both field like a SS and hit better than a SS. We don’t even have anyone could do either better than Jose and either does just about anybody else. Have you taken a look at the age of half of the SS’s in the Major Leagues? Ancient. This guy is is right in the beginning of his prime RIGHT NOW. How many teams are starting guys like Uribe, Miguel Tejada, Renteria, Jeter, Cabrera, Scutero? How many teams are playing Theriot, Pennington, Bartlett, Ryan, Hardy?
Let me get this right. We should go out and spend fortunes on guys already past their prime but we shouldn’t resign our own homegrown stars IN THEIR PRIME. We should give away what little depth we have in the minors or our first or second round draft choices in order to get the worst years of someone else’s former All Stars but we should let our own go at 28 years old? WOW. That’s really an incredible attitude. And for BUSINESS reasons? But Alou at 40, Pedro at 34, Bay at 32, Lo Duca at 34, Glavine at 37, El-Duque at ?, Franco at 45, Greene at 35, Wagner at 34, These guys were good business moves?
Continuity is good for a baseball organization. Keeping your best players is what smart teams do. Knowing when to say when is a big part of being a GM but Reyes is only halfway through his career, never caused an off field problem and played great while he’s been here. On the field wise he has been the face of the team and he’s only 27 years old.
Three guys making as much as him won’t provide as much on field production and they’ll do it while taking up three spots in the lineup.
If we were to get out bid in the Carl Crawford area that would be bad enough because he should have been addressed instead of Bay in 2009 before Crawford even got that offer. Yeah that’s right. Another part of a GM’s job is buy low. Anticipate and get ahead of the curve. One way or another we always buy high. If you were J. Wilpon and expected say .260 25 100 out of Bay and you resolutely refuse to EVER develop your own LFer no matter what, even though it’s the easiest position to play, why wouldn’t you just grab two non tenders and piece them together and KEEP YOUR BEST PLAYER.
Seeing someone else come out to play SS would be like taking a hook to the liver. Seeing Reyes on the highlights in someone else’s uniform would cost an untold of number of Met Fans for good. People that would just walk away and never come back. People that would be so revolted over the aging freaks that we have lavished with gold to come here and stink up the joint throughout the Wilpon error. Coleman, Saberhagen, Bonilla, Burnitz, Vaughn, Alomar only to have nothing left for one of our own. Shortsighted doesn’t even begin to describe it.
If average ticket, parking and concessions are about $100.00 a person that’s 200,000 paid admission. Think attendance will only go down 200K without him? Think again. To see a bad AND boring team and constantly be reminded of getting the shaft by the Wilpon every time you turn on Sports Center? Try more like 500,000.
Try paying your bills then. If that happens this franchise is ******.
One other thing about Reyes. Why was he even brought up here when he was? The day before he turned 20. He split 2002 in Pt. St. Lucie and Bingampton, then played 40 games in AAA and he’s up here in June. What was the rush? You know what the rush was. To remove the stink of yet another soon to be 90+ loss season and cover up the mistakes of Alomar, Burnitz, Cedeno and Vaughn.
When have we ever brought a prospect up here when he was truly ready to contribute to winning baseball games? We brought Reyes up to cover mistakes and the protect the Box Office.
If he had been brought up a year later (21) and we had bought out a couple of years instead of just one he’d be a free agent at 30, not 28. That’s a big difference. A hell of a lot more difference than he would have made as a 20 year old on yet another ill conceived 90+ loss team.
Decisions around here are constantly made to cover up other mistakes instead of being made for intelligent baseball reasons.
It’s called negotiations and i’m sure that the BOBS(GM DREAM TEAM) know better than us what Reyes is worth. They’re the one getting calls and receiving demands from the agent.
if Alderson can get Bumgarner in a package for Reyes I trade him in two seconds. Bumgarner just has way more value for what he costs for the next five years than Reyes does. Stud top of the rotation starter, and lefty.
I think it’s funny that the same people that are complaining that we won’t compete for a few years are the same people that are screaming for Reyes to be resigned. Jessep brings up a good point in regards to that. What the hell good is Reyes when we won’t be winning? so we can just watch him run out triples? how bout getting some pieces to build a winner sooner. Sometimes you just have to let go. it’s the recycling of talent that is vital for long term success. Omar didn’t understand this concept. Hopefully Alderson does. It looks like he does. If the package is right Reyes has to go.
Let go of Wright for pitching/backups. That’s the better option, his numbers are easier to replace, third baseman doesn’t even have to be best hitter on team.
Although Jose suffers from brain lock he STILL brings more to the table than Wright and what he brings is harder to replace. But saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers.
Here I thought Mets fans liked Wright cause he was a home grown Met.
Regardless of what you describe as “saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys” and the reasons you seem to think you know why they like Wright. I would hope that fans that root for the Mets in the end just like Wright cause he is a Met and while he has obvious holes in his game he has been a good Met throughout his career thus far.
If Wright hits a HR I would hope Mets fans cheer just as they would if say Ike or Beltran hit a hr. I mean isn’t the point to cheer for the name in front of the uniform not the name in the back?
Here I thought Mets fans liked Reyes cause he was a home grown Met. Still talking out of both sides of your mouth, just so you could side against bayonne. SMH
You know just because you keep saying I am talking out of both sides of my mouth doesn’t mean that eventually it will be true.
You would be smarter to simply point out what 2 items you find exception to than your continued pouting like a scorned child over your fan post.
A post mind you that I gave you compliments on.
Well rather than leaving bayonne a pointless snarky remark, you completely are oblivious to his point that Wright would have more trade value than Reyes and he is absolutely correct.
Then you come along twisting as usual asking, I thought all Mets fans liked homegrown players.
Well what is Reyes?
And whar does that have to do with his point?
All you do is twist and contort but only when those you despise leave a comment. Your nose is never far from their asses.
Wright has more trade value than Reyes right now, and Reyes is more valuable to the Mets than Wright is. Two undisputable facts.
Wright is not a catalyst and never will be.
Ughh Maniac,
I don’t know how to best explain this but let me at least make an effort so please bare with me OK?
My “Here I thought Mets fans liked Wright cause he was a home grown Met.” comment was in reply to “But saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers.”
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My “I would hope that fans that root for the Mets in the end just like Wright cause he is a Met and while he has obvious holes in his game he has been a good Met throughout his career thus far.” was again in reply to “saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers.”
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Of course Reyes is a home grown player. I am not saying he isn’t or should be seen any different. The reply was to the snarky idea again that “saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers.”
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Notice I did not disagree with the idea of who has more trade value Wright or Reyes because now pay attention.
That was not the focus of my comment.
I don’t know what you think I was referring to but I can only hope my expanded explanation helps you somehow.
Clearly ever since yesterday you have been gunning to argue with me over anything and everything. I have no idea why you have decided to take your anger on the fan post out on me but in any case I wish you could just get past it and move on already.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t rotisserie and saber about numbers? In fantasy baseball don’t the only draft players because of numbers? Isn’t saber about advanced metrics and numbers? You don’t think people in rotisserie leagues and fantasy baseball leagues draft and love players because of their numbers?
Do saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers and draft him for their leagues?
Ummm, an emphatic yes.
Is there such a thing as a gritty fantasy baseball team that gets their uniforms dirty, argues with umps, slide hard into second, etc.? I’m opretty sure there isn’t. That’s because it’s only based on numbers.
They dont draft based on good looks, great smiles, good personality, and dimples. Purely numbers.
Fantasy baseball has nothing to do with sabermetrics. Fantasy numbers are (among others) BA, RBI, Wins, and Saves. Try as you might, you can’t compare saber people and fantasy baseball. You’re more of a fantasy guy that I am, actually.
We don’t have to rebuild. You guys have to get that out of your head. Small market teams rebuild everyone else restocks and shuffles while still being competitive.
Yes we haven’t been in the playoffs since 2006 but we became a bad team in 2009 when the injuries were too much. It’s only 2 bad seasons. We could easily be back. We have a good core and we need pitching. We have lots of contracts coming off the books and we can add key players. doesn’t look too hard.
But Chris. Who did Omar sign that was under 32? Beltran and K-Rod. That’s it. Reyes will soon be turning 28. Big difference, plus he keeps us relevant. Without him we have one less hitter, no SS and no ability to create runs especially since Beltran will be gone too.
I totally agree with your analysis Jessup. The Mets will survive not resigning Reyes if he goes somewhere else, just like the Red Sox survived letting Pedro Martinez go. Just like the fans would not have crucified the Payson dynasty had Tom Sever left as a free agent rather than been traded. Alderson needs to do what will make the Mets a winner in 2014-2016 and in the end the Mets fans will only care about winning.
someone that gets it.
How extreme of you xtreemicon. Lets go to the root of this particular thread started by this comment by Bayonne. I will place it in between arrows so you know where it begins and ends.
>>>Let go of Wright for pitching/backups. That’s the better option, his numbers are easier to replace, third baseman doesn’t even have to be best hitter on team.
Although Jose suffers from brain lock he STILL brings more to the table than Wright and what he brings is harder to replace. But saber/fantasy/rotisserie/make believe baseball guys love Wright because of his numbers.<<<
Do you agree or disagree?
I agree. Of course saber/fantasy/rotisserie/ love Wright because of his numbers?
Otherwise why did they hate Jeff Francoeur so much?
I'm thinking because they didn't like his numbers. Wouldn't you agree?
Well, yeah, I would agree with that. But I don’t get what the relevance is. I mean, why segregate who loves Wright. Just about everyone loves Wright, and it’s because of his numbers. His numbers produce runs, so when one team beats another six dirty jerseys and ten ounces of testicular fortitude to four dirty jerseys and three ounces of testicular fortitude, then we can just trade away Wright. But since runs matter, let’s keep the All-Star, hmm’k?
I included Bayonne’s comment in the hope you might grasp the relevance and the point. You didn’t. Let me simplify it.
Which player has more trade value David Wright or Jose Reyes?
If the Mets could only afford to keep one, which one can help the Mets on more levels than the other and plays a scarcer position?
Reyes has more trade value. Because his talents are more rare.
“If the Mets could only afford to keep one, which one can help the Mets on more levels than the other AND PLAYS A SCARCER POSITION?”
You wouldn’t happen to be loading the question, would you?
Reyes, a 2 1/2 month rental has more trade value than Wright who is signed and under team control through 2013????
Okay then, I think dinner is ready, good night.
By the way, I didnt load the question, it was based on Bayonne’s comment where he mentions third basemen are easier to replace.
What is your reading level?
You mentioned nothing of contract status and salary. Stop loading questions. Ask what you want the answer to, or get the answer to the question as it’s asked.
You asked who can help the Mets on more levels and who plays a scarcer position. Loading the question like that, the answer is Reyes. I’m fully prepared to have an adult conversation. When you decide to join me, I’ll be here.
Bayonne said to trade Wright for a pitcher and backups. He meant this year, now, not in 2013, in July.
Are you okay?
Stop thinking in saber, you end up getting lost.
If Bayonne said anything worth replying to, I would have. The Bayonne quote you gave me was “Let go of Wright for pitching/backups. That’s the better option, his numbers are easier to replace, third baseman doesn’t even have to be best hitter on team.”
Even he said nothing of contract status. Stop loading your questions and talking out of both sides of your mouth and someone might actually engage you in a normal discussion. I answered the questions asked, and it was asked in a way that twists and supports your argument only. But that’s ok, it’s kind of par for your course.
Let’s also not forget this little nugget: “third baseman doesn’t even have to be best hitter on team.”
That goes double for SS. As a matter of fact, SS is generally accepted as a WEAK hitting position. But let’s not let facts and reality make a mockery of our arguments, right?
BTW xtreem, I know fantasy baseball has nothing to do with saber.
But they both have to do with numbers.
That’s all I said.
Agree?
Disagree?
Or do one of them have to do with swagger?
I can’t really disagree, but that’s like saying the extreme left and the extreme right both like politicians. Agree or disagree?
The numbers in fantasy and the sabermetric numbers in real baseball are night and day. And numbers and swagger have nothing to do with each other. Unless someone has swagger because they have a .900 OPS or something.
xtreem, I cant take anymore of your inability to make points or answer questions. Youre a waste of time to debate things with. Have a good night.
Taking your ball and going home? Next time I’ll pretend you’re right every once in a while so maybe you can hang out with the big boys a little longer. You asked me a question and I answered it. Sorry if it wasn’t the answer you expected, but you are wrong a lot, so you should be used to it.
This is off topic but I just wanted to take the opportunity to note that it was REFRESHING to hear Keith Hernandez ( a man who knows a little bit about hitting) and Gary Cohen lament the effect that this OBP nonsense just may not be good for baseball in the long run, although not in those exact words.
I’ve been saying that for the longest time.
These guys are trained professional HITTERS not takers. Your ability to identify pitches, or as we used to say back in the day “your batting eye” is established very young in a players life, even as young as when they’re kids. Just because some baseball players with good eyes become professional HITTERs doesn’t mean ALL players have to have that same approach as idealistic as that may be.
All hitters are different. Guys like Manny Sanguillen, Jeff Franceour, Vlad, Yogi, and so on are bad ball hitters. That’s what my dad used to call them “bad ball hitters”. IT’s JUST THE WAY IT IS.
Every single day in a professional’s life i’m sure coaches are working with them. The problem nowadays is EVERYBODY’s a coach.
Hopefully over time this approach will be exposed for what it truly is – a bad idea. Batting average is STILL the most important stat that tells if you someone can hit or not. Not OBP.
OBP is a residual effect of your performance. It is NOT to be used to dictate your performance. Sandy Alderson is going to have to relearn that because I’m telling you, if they stick to this OBP ideology in the Mets minor leagues it’s gonna change the culture of athletic competition in the minors here and NOT for the better either.
When the Mets faced that rookie pitcher from Philadelphia Vance Worley couple weeks ago they lost the game because they took too many pitches, especially first strike pitches. This “new” passive approach is bad for baseball and this attempt to change the approach of batters who have worked a certain way all their lives to become professional hitters is ill advised and will ultimately prove to be detrimental to the game.
Who knows? Maybe that’s another reason runs scored is down. Anybody ever think of that?
Batters are taking TOO many pitchers instead of just being themselves and doing what got them to the bigs in the first place. Leave the individual work to the coaches.
Way to go Keith and Gary!
OBP is a residual effect of your performance. It is NOT to be used to dictate your performance.
Bayonne Mets fan
Remember that
It is a measure of your performance and a good indicator of plate discipline.
And I like how the opinions of guys who never played baseball don’t count unless they echo the empty cliches you call thought.
To compare Vlad and Yogi to Francouer is pretty far out of touch with reality.
When you have the kind of raw power regardless of where the ball is pitched that a Vladimir Guererro has you don’t worry about what he swings at and Vlad takes his walks anyway. So did Yogi. They both have/had good OB%’s. You are right about walks being a residual effect of your AB though and not a goal of it.
The goal of any AB should be to swing at the best pitch and that means swinging at the first pitch sometimes. 0-0 IS a hitters count since pitchers always want to get ahead so they can use all their pitches and expand their zone. With runners in scoring position you should always look inner half or outer half and if you get what your thinking, rip it. If you don’t, take, but do NOT swing at balls. by doing that your helping the pitcher. That’s what Francouer does. He never gets himself into a hitters count and he’s far from a Vladimer Guerrero. Very very far. About as far as it gets.
Pitch recognition and a quick bat allow you to wait, decide, swing/don’t swing. Murphy for instance quickly recognizes and doesn’t even make a move on most balls. Wright with the BIG swing has to start earlier. That costs him. That and taking strike one right down the middle every AB. If he changes his approach he’ll be pitched to differently. He’ll start getting first pitch breaking balls that miss and then be in 1-0 counts. That will be huge for him.
Keith is the ultimate thinking man’s player. But it goes both ways with him. He’s just as likely to talk about not putting yourself in a hole by swinging at stuff you can’t do anything with as he is about not being aggressive. It’s a timely topic mostly because of Thole.
Thole is the one who’s been most guilty of that. 24 year old slumping, lost some confidence and brought some real poor approaches into the batters box recently especially with 2 out and the pitcher on deck taking a walk with runners on. You cannot do that.
The difference in BA and SLG % in 1-2 counts compared to 2-1 counts is bigger than anyone could ever imagine. There is only one way to get yourself into a 2-1 count. Take two balls. there is no other way. If you get what your thinking before that even better but if not don’t put your self at the mercy of the pitchers entire arsenal like Francouer does by swinging at ****.
Never look for the walk, just take the walk if presented with no better options. Your BA, OB and SLG will all thank you and most importantly so will your teammates.
This was all explained in little league many years ago. Nothings changed. No one ever wanted the guy who swings at everything on their team and that hasn’t changed either.
“To compare Vlad and Yogi to Francouer is pretty far out of touch with reality”
I stopped reading right there, that’s not what i was talking about and I think most people know that.
Unbelievable.
frenchy is not a bad ball hitter. he is a definitely a bad ball swinger. his career numbers are godawful, and as mentioned before, is perhaps the worst regular corner outfielder in history with 3k plus AB. vlad is a HOFer.
The last few posts are quite interesting, but they are off the original topic. I’d like to go back to it if you don’t mind. Jose Reyes is a very good player, and I’d love to see him stay in NY, but, is NY going to be turned into a winner because he stays. A Mets fan may say yes, but a baseball fan who roots for the Mets probably disagrees. I could agree with trading him if the return is high enough. I have more of a problem losing him to free agency, but I know what I’d be willing to pay, and if that’s not enough, so be it.
Here’s the real problem. NY fans will not support a long rebuilding process. I know I wouldn’t. Who can the Mets get for Reyes? Prospects are just that. They are a risk as they may never pan out as good (let alone very good) major leaguers. Only a contending team will be willing to rent a player. No contender is going to give up a front line player in a trade, so all you are left with is receiving prospects. That’s a gamble on a gamble unless the sheer number of prospects (let alone who they are) lowers the odds of a botched trade.
Now, who are the possible takers? SF? Their top prospect is a first baseman. Philly isn’t renting anybody. So,whose got something the Mets want that is willing to make a trade (and Reyes is different than Beltran or Wright in terms of importance to the club because as Reyes goes the Mets go). I can’t think of anyone right now.
Jessep has different reasons than I (forget the mistake in age as his concept that players depending on speed to make their game usually see a downswing in performance in their mid 30s is correct. We aren’t talking Ricky Henderson or Ozzie Smith here)for believing Reyes will not be traded, we have come to the same conclusion.
Please Please do not trade reyes!!!! I have been a Mets fan for yrs and I have stuck by there side for all of these horrible years, But trading reyes would be my last straw. He is the only met that plays with excitement he gets you in the game and I honestly love watching him. Hes done great things with the Mets and if you trade him I’m done with this organization for real