19
2011
What Makes A Real Mets Fan?
An article by Former Writers
Since the hiring of Sandy Alderson there seems to be a an overwhelming sentiment among the fanbase that if you don’t 100% support everything Alderson and his front office do then you’re not a real fan of the New York Mets.
Gone are the days when having a different opinion was acceptable. Today, Mets fans who disagree with the front office are labeled haters and trolls. They are singled out and attacked on sites like this one or social mediums like Twitter.
I know there are Mets fans who like me don’t believe that Sandy Alderson was the right choice to be general manager. Some of us feel his moneyball ways are simply wrong and not cut out for a large market team like the Mets. The over-reliance on sabermetrics seems foolish and short-sighted to me. The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team. I know I’m not the only one who feels that way, in fact most ballplayers – former and current – scoff at it.
Every team has a fanbase that likes certain players on the team and dislikes other players. I know there is a good number of fans who like myself dislike Carlos Beltran. Like me, they think he’s selfish, overrated and overpaid. Those fans are also bashed and called names that I can’t repeat on a site like this. There are also many who dislike Jose Reyes and/or David Wright too. Reyes and Wright are my two favorite players. I believe they are the most important players on the team. Some of you would probably disagree with that and that’s just fine, you are entitled to your opinions. We don’t have to agree on everything and anything. However there’s a civil way to do it without resorting to name calling or worse.
The bottom line is we are all Mets fans, we all love our team, and we all want to see them win. We buy their merchandise, we buy their tickets and we watch them regularly. We are entitled to have different views and that’s what makes sports fun and worth debating. Let’s get back to having civil, adult discussions instead of acting like children and calling people names and making fun of them simply because they have different opinions on what’s right for the team and what isn’t.
About the Author: Former Writers
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“Since the hiring of Sandy Alderson there seems to be a an overwhelming sentiment among the fanbase that if you don’t 100% support everything Alderson and his front office do then you’re not a real fan of the New York Mets.”
Show me proof of this statement? I have NEVER seen this statement in writing nor heard it verbalized.
I think this is just an overdramatic statement from someone on the other side.
Most of what I’ve read is that people are killling the guy before he’s had a chance to clean up the mess left for him. Thinking he had the same payroll to work with as the free spender before him and think POOF in a month or two everything is going to be fixed.
It’s perception of the opposing opinion – you don’t like don’t make up things that are being said.
You call for people not name calling, agreed, in the same vain stop making things up.
There is never any supporting evidence or facts in a Greg Pomes article ever. Why should that change now?
Over-reliance on sabermetrics? How do you know to what degree Alderson rely’s on sabermetrics. Doesn’t appear to me that sabermetrics played anypart at all in any but one of his acquisitions this year and even that one was acquired primarily because he didn’t cost us anything to get.
This team has continually shot themselves in the foot with poor decision making and a poorly thought out business plan. Almost every Met Fan has been glad that we have a GM that is going to look at things a little more carefully than just “who are we going to get for these 5-10 positions every year.” That should lead to better decision making and a better team in general.
Hopefully, gone are the days where some monkey says to himself Hmmm, 1B, I wonder if we could get Mo Vaughn to come back and play for us. 2B, I’ll bet I can trade the crown jewel of our farm system for a couple years of Roberto Alomar. David Weathers and Roger Cedeno will out play anyone we could take in the 2nd and 3rd round of the 2002 draft, Vince Coleman will be a real igniter for our offemse, Moises Alou has a lot of baseball left in him, two first round draft choices for Chris Carter? Hell yeah I’m interested. You mean to tell me we can get Zambranno for Kazmir? Done deal. Second helpings on Bonilla? Hell Yeah. Burnitz in RF? I like it. Bay in LF is a lock to put up numbers.”
Anyone with just a scintilla of a brain cell has to know just how poorly thought out so many decisions have been around here for the greater part of two decades. More information is the remedy, not the same old monkey see, monkey buy decision making process employed by Phillips, Duquette and Minaya.
If Minaya had bothered to take a look at Jason Bay by the numbers he would have seen that Jason Bay has struck out 50% of the time he gets into a two strike count over the course of his entire career. Good years, bad years, Pirates, Red Sox, K’s half the time he gets 2 strikes on him. Would this have tempered Minaya’s enthusiasm over 36 Hr’s and 119 RBI 94 BB’s, 162 K’s? It should have. A guy who cannot hit in a two strike count from age 24-30 isn’t going to fare any better as a 31-35 year old in a worse line up and a bigger park.
More information isn’t the problem. It’s the monkey’s who want to keep doing the same thing every year and expect different results that’s the problem.
Nobody wants to do the SAME thing that Omar did – that’s just not true at all.
you believe that no matter what Alderson would have done, it wouldn’t have mattered because we have no shot to begin with. And I strongly disagree – this team has a very good lineup, with Wright, Reyes, Beltran, and Davis, why can’t we win with that lineup? I’d say there is only one team in the NL that has a better lineup than us, the Cards. So if we had a good lineup like that, why wasn’t there a better effort made to improve the weakest point of the team(the pitching)? We added two guys who haven’t pitch full seasons since what? 2007? That’s a smart move? Why did we let TWO good lefthanders walk and only replace them with tim Byrdak? You like the idea of having ONE lefty in the bullpen(that is almost 38)in the NL east – come on T agee, you know that’s not a good idea.
And Aaron Harang was going to save the season?
And how are those 2 good lefties doing now?
I my opinion he would have helped a lot, and Penny was another guy I liked too.
My point is with Taka and Felciano, isn’t that we didn’t bring them back, it was that we did replace them with anybody good. I mean come on, Tim byrak as the only left hander in the bullpen, and in the NL east? that was not a good idea at all. There was plenty of left handed RP’s available that were better than Byrdak.
you cannot argue that the mets should have signed feliciano, a much as he has pitched over the last several seasons? Getting rid of him was inspired, as the yankees have learned. the new regime refuses to overpay for guys like pedro and Tak. That is not sabermetrics. That is moneyball. And you ave to think that they decided on feliciano not based on statistics, but on a good old fashioned hunch that his elbow was due to implode.
I’m not arguing to bring him back, I’m arguing that he should have been replaced with someone better than Byrdak – I wouldn’y have resigned Feliciano, I would have signed Choate.
Having Byrdack who’s 38 years old as the only lefty in your bullpen in the NL east, is a bad idea.
This brings me to another point Vinny.
Why do Alderson’s critics pretend that he doesn’t talk to anybody else’s agent except for the ones he signs?
You think they didn’t talk to Randy Choate ever? You have no idea. I agree with you, Choate is a better pitcher than Byrdak.
However, maybe the Mets saw no reason to guarantee a 35 year old left handed specialist a 2 year contract? Is that such a wrong way of thinking? It’s not as though Choate is so amazing that you just had to get him.
Jessep makes a great point. How do you know who’s agents Alderson talked to, unless you are in organizational meetings with him? Choate may’ve been their top option. Unfortunately he signed with the Marlins. It happens…the players have the choice to go wherever they’d like to go.
Right. And it would really be a reach to say that they all considered the Mets to be their #1 choice. I mean even guys who did come here weren’t exactly falling all over themselves.
Beltran would have gone to the NYY for 20 M less, Bay waffled for 4-5 days before signing. Even had to explain it at his press conference. Delgado did go to the Marlins, but everyone else wants to come here?
if there is a silver lining…i think the yanks are going to go through a similar phase…
the way they just treated posada…along with the market for SP being so thin…I can see CC Sabathia opting out and joining the Phillies
wait…i said that was a silver lining…never mind..
Well, Choate wasn’t the only LHRP that was available. Biemel, Fuentes, Taka, Rhodes, Romero, Ohman, Sherrill, and Okajima, were guys that we could have had. I can’t imagine Byrdak was the only LH that wanted to play here, i don’t believe that for a second.
But were those guys better than Byrdak? And were they cheaper? Let’s see:
Brian Fuentes: Better than Byrdak but signed a 2 yr/10 million dollar deal. The Mets didn’t have money for a reliever worth 5 mil.
Beimel: Cheaper but is he better? Beimel: .258 career vs lefties, Byrdak: .204 career vs lefties. Byrdak’s obviously the better LOOGY.
Takahashi: Solid last year, but his numbers were fluky (his K rate was higher here than in Japan) and he wanted bigger money, not to mention the fact that the Mets COULDN’T sign him after 10/31 due to a clause Omar put in his contract. He wanted to test the market.
Rhodes: Better than Byrdak, but he was a Type A free agent. That’s an Omar Minaya move to give up draft picks for a 41 year old lefty setup man.
Romero: More expensive than Byrdak and he’s been pretty mediocre the past three seasons. The ERA’s hide his main flaw…lots of baserunners. With nearly a walk per inning allowed, that’s not a recipe for a good reliever, especially considering he’s making 1.35 mil.
Ohman: Got a 2 year deal and makes 1.5 mil this season. Had a good year last year between FLA and BAL but got a 2 year deal. The difference between he and Byrdak is negligible.
Sherrill: Somehow got 1.2 mil out of the Braves after a hideous season with the Dodgers. Batters hit .311 against him last year, he had a 1:1 K:BB ratio and he supposedly lost a lot of velocity. He’s been better with the Braves but for that much money, there was too much risk.
Okajima: Got 1.75 mil from the Sox despite his numbers declining each season he’s been in the majors. Batters crushed him to the tune of a .314 avg last year and Lefties hit .284 against him. He’s also K’ing less batters. It’s pretty telling that he didn’t make the Sox opening day roster and that he’s only thrown 8 innings so far with a 1:1 K:BB ratio. Byrdak’s a better option for the money.
There you go. Anything else I could help you with?
pretty convincing. the simple fact though is that by what would have been year SEVEN, you would think that we could have had an in house option available for LHP out of the pen.
I mean we did blow a bunch of early round draft picks on college relief pitchers.
How long does it take to develop a LOOGY?
You would think so. Those blown early picks on trash relievers killed this farm system (take a look at the first 7 picks of the 07 draft…just terrible). Look at the Braves, who are swimming in lefty relief depth. They’ve got Venters, they’ve got O’Flaherty and they’ve got Sherrill. They even had to trade Mike Dunn to the Marlins because they didn’t have room for him. Aside from Feliciano, they’d been looking for that second lefty for a few years and were never able to find it. And the few prospects they had in Eric Niesen and Roy Merritt just never panned out. Robert Carson, who’s starting in AA, may end up being a solid lefty setup man but aside from that, there’s little depth in the system.
Rhodes: Better than Byrdak, but he was a Type A free agent. That’s an Omar Minaya move to give up draft picks for a 41 year old lefty setup man.
Omar Minaya gave up a 1st round draft pick to get Billy Wagner.
Brian Cashman gave up a 1st round draft pick to get Pedro Feliciano
and somehow giving up a draft pick for an old middle reliever is an Omar Minaya move
#fuzzylogic
Senior, that 2007 draft was an abomination.
Kunz, Vineyard, Moviel, Rustich, Cline, Niessen and a voluntary forfeit of the best pick of all. # 27. For a 40 year old OFer who couldn’t even stay on the field in his 20′s.
Simply unbelievable. And if you don’t think that’s a big reason we had to troll through the junkyard this offseason your just in denial.
MLB…didn’t mean that he actually made that move. Just that it’s an Omar-esque move. I was mainly referring the throwing away of a 1st rounder on the 40 year old, injury plagued Moises Alou.
Agee…yeah, that 07 draft was horrendous. It’s bad enough to draft a reliever with your first pick but then to follow that up with more relievers like Rustich, Niesen and Cline is even worse, not to mention the fact that Moviel bombed and Vineyard quit baseball after like 2 appearances. The theory behind Rustich and Niesen was to turn them into starters, but there was probably a reason why they were relievers in college. That was a killer for Minaya because you’d have to assume that if they have a good draft, some of the players from that one are ready in 09/10.
Harang took more money to play for someone he publicly said he wanted to play for. He went home. It would have cost a lot more to bring him here.
and I have no idea how Harang and Penny looked like a more attractive option than Young and Capuano this off season.
And what LOOGY was out there that would have fit into the budget?
You mean less money.
No, I meant compared to Young and Capuano. I should have clarified.
Word. I dig it now.
Randy Choate – 2 years 2.5 million – we couldn’t afford that? but we can afford D.J Carrasco for around the same amount money?
I’m sure we could’ve afforded it. The problem is that Choate decided he wanted to go to the Marlins. It sucks, but it happens. Guys have the choice to play where they want to play.
there was other guys available too – it wasn’t just Choate – I don’t think all the LHRP’s this offseason said “we won’t play in NY”.
Scroll up…addressed all those guys you listed above.
By the way, this is the same aaron harang who signed a contract to play in his hometown and oh by the way has a 5.05 ERA.
This “we should have gotten Aaron Harang” argument looked good when he had an ERA under 2.00. Now he’s had 1 good start in his last 4 and he looks like any other pitcher on the free agent market.
So get over this harang idea already.
Harang is a stiff. He has been for a couple of years. I would not waste a nickel on him.
Would you have wasted seven million dollars?
Hey, it would have been a better move than siging young, who only made four starts.
And it’s still so early in the season, he could have a few good starts in a row, and it will lower his ERA a ton, just like when he had a few bad starts in row, it raised his ERA a ton – let’s see what his numbers are like when the season is over.
Like I said before, if you fill your roster with good pitchers, it won’t matter where you get the starts from. Filling your roster with the likes of Harang and Millwood, just because they’d make 30 starts would make your team far, far worse because you’re getting 30 bad starts. Young and Capuano cost less combined than the hometown discount Harang gave the Padres and the Mets, so far, are the big winners in that small comparison.
Also like I said before, Harang will finish the season looking up at Capuano.
There’s a lot of flaws with that.
Harang isn’t going to give you 30 bad starts…he has already pitched five great games.
Plus when the injury prone starter gets hurt, you have to relace them with a minor leaguer, so the Mets now have 26 games started by a minor league pitcher. Now if the Mets had signed Harang the would have got 30 starts from a major league pitcher instead of 26 from a minor league guy….that will probably make a huge difference during the course of 162 games season, and it could cost us the playoffs.
That to me, that is worth an extra 6 million…
OK so lets take Young’s 4 starts and 26 from Gee and at the end of the year compare them with the results of Harang also thinking about the difference in price.
In some cases, maybe. But when the “minor league” starter is Dillon Gee, what’s wrong with that. Both pitchers are better than Harang.
Right, Sandy basically signed 2 for one expecting one to get hurt and Gee be there to bail him out.
They both were big injury risks – who replaces Capuano if he gets hurt?
Eh, good question. Maybe the guy that’s doing well down there right now that no one has ever heard of. I just think Harrang is a bad example. His cost and desire were things that just did not match his talent level. If the Mets just wanted a junk innings eater they could still sign Millwood. Sure it would have been nice to have another quality arm in AAA but that’s more of an issue of the previous regime. Hard to get decent pitchers to come and be AAA depth.
But wouldn’t the lack of depth in the minors be even MORE of a reason why to sign pitchers who were less of a risk?
I understand that all of the pitchers available were risky, but I thought Harang was less of a risk even if we are paying him more money than Young and Cap – He started 46 games the last two years, and Cap and young COMBINED started 27 – so Harang almost started double the games by HIMSELF than young and cap COMBINED.
and what did you think about Penny? He was cheap, he’s a risk too i know, but he did start 30 games in 2009…..I think getting him would have been a nice move.
From a strict this year baseball approach I don’t think your ideas are wrong Vinny. I think it had a lot more to do with getting Young and Capuano off to a good start and trading them at the deadline so we could add some depth.
Remember this is year one of the new administration. They want to ADD talent for the long term and probably just didn’t have the money to address all the concerns the way they would have liked to.
If Young and Capuano were to reestablish themselves and we could get 2-4 near ready prospects from someone for them all they would have needed was 20 decent starts.
Bring Mejia and Gee up here August 1st and see where we are.
That’s what I think the idea was anyway.
Well, that’s why I think they did a bad job lol.I think this team can make the playoffs. I really like this lineup – we can win NOW with that lineup, I don’t see any other teams in the NL besides the Cards that have a better lineup – but the pitching is really a problem, and i think they should have made a better effort in the offseason to improve the weakest point of the team.
By that token how much would Jason Vargas have helped us this year?
The fact is, no matter how much you want us to win, you just cannot overcome all the mistakes of previous regiem’s in just one off season.
Trading a young LH starting pitcher, along with everyone else Seattle wanted despite the Mariners getting their primary target from Cleveland for an injured relief pitcher, was a huge mistake.
Giving away EIGHT 1st round, FOUR 2nd round and THREE 3rd round draft choices since 1999 didn’t cost us starting pitching?
Drafting less talented but easier to sign prospects didn’t cost us a starting pitcher?
Trading away Kazmir didn’t cost us BIG TIME in 2006, 2007 and 2008?
Not having a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2002 didn’t cost us the chance to draft Lester, Broxton or Josh Johnson? And for what? Two more salary dumps in Weathers and Cedeno.
You just can’t recover from all the buffoonery of the last three administrations in one off season.
YOU think that this team could make the post season but not that many other people feel the same way. Going into the season RF, LF, C and 2B were HUGE question marks.
RF has been as good as could be hoped for. 2B no where near as bad as we feared. LF, to date, bad. Catcher hasn’t been too good either.
Three spots we were counting on are now on the DL, two who you really wouldn’t have thought but with the type of depth we have, knew would cost us if it did happen.
I appreciate your optomism but I just didn’t share it.
If Young and Capuano had good numbers after 20 starts we could have gotten something decent for future years so we won’t always have to have this same argement every year.
“Who are we going to get for 5-10 positions this year?”
“who replaces Capuano if he gets hurt?”
Mejia was the plan. But he ripped his arm up.
#Sandysfault
Well, Vinny…obviously Alderson doesn’t think they could win right now and he knew that they didn’t have the money to bring in better players. And I’d trust his baseball acumen over yours…he’s been working in baseball front offices for 30 some-odd years and you’re just a poster on the internet.
Senorstem, that would be like me saying you can’t criticize Omar because he’s been working in baseball for so many years, and your just some poster on the intenet….
I think Alderson’s wrong by thinking that this team has no chance of winning – I really like this lineup, and I think this team can STILL make the playoffs, and I was even saying that when we were 5-13. I just think it would have really helped our chances if he made a better effort this offseason to get better pitching, hopefully he can trade for someone at the deadline, and we can get Santana back at some point.
The difference is that Omar has proven to people that he can’t run a successful organization. Aside from his 2006 successes, he’s failed in nearly every aspect, whether it’s player evaluation, trades, free agents, staff, PR, etc.
Omar thought that the Mets were a “player away from being a contender” from 2007-2010 and yet they weren’t. In fact, they got worse and worse. His judgement couldn’t be trusted by the end of ’10. Who knows…maybe they could’ve won this year, maybe not. I have no reason not to trust Alderson at this point and I’d prefer to see him make decisions that are grounded in reality for today, tomorrow and the future. We don’t have evidence that Alderson can’t do that, while there was conclusive evidence that Omar could not.
Senortism
the mets missed the playoffs by one game in 2007 and 2008
i think its fair to say they were either a solid LF or a solid middle reliever from making up that difference.
If Duaner Sanchez doesnt hop in that cab we’re not having this conversation.
If the wilpons dont try to nickle and dime the redsox over manny ramirez’s salary in the 06 off-season, we’re not having this conversation
either one of those players completely changes the outcomes of the 2007 and 2008 season…
although i think it is fair to say that as a new yorker…fans are not happy with just making the playoffs…met fans can talk all they want about entitled yankee fans but they are not that different.
MLB…sure but in the end, all of those things did happen. You can make excuses and create caveats, but in the end, Omar Minaya’s teams just weren’t good enough to make the playoffs. Whether they finished 1 game out or 20 games out, they still didn’t make it. That’s on Minaya that he couldn’t find an acceptable option in LF. It’s on Minaya that he couldn’t ever find a decent 5th starter option and continually relied on Maine and Perez as major parts of the rotation in 09 and 10, when they were clearly toast. It’s on Minaya that he overpaid an old Luis Castillo and then never got league avg production from the position.
Minaya was given a gift, inheriting two franchise players in Reyes and Wright. He also brought in another young franchise player in Beltran. Aside from that, he could never do enough to fill out the other spots on the roster to put the team over the top and managed to waste the formative years of their careers (aside from 2006). That’s unfortunate but it’s all on Minaya. He’s in charge. He brings in the players and that’s why he got paid the big bucks.
Senorstem, I have to disagree. I don’t think it was a case of the Mets getting worse in 2007, 2008. I think it was a case of the NL and especially the NL East coming back up to normal.
Remember in 2006 the Braves suffered their first sub .500 record in 15 years. They were never above .500 after May 3rd. The Phillies never cracked .500 for good until August 20th, the marlins until Sept. 17th, the Nationals…..well never.
The NL West was won with 88 wins. 88! That’s not even normally enough to qualify for a wild card.
The NL Central was won with 83 wins!
Was anyone calling the 2006 Blue Jay’s a super team? They won 87 games that year in the AL East. Move them to the NL East they probably get 103.
I mean c’mon here. usually you have three or four 90+ win teams in the NL. That year we had one. Us. Good team sure but in a very very mediocre League and a downright crippled Division.
Agee…I could agree with that. I guess the bottom line is that while other teams got better, Minaya still seemed to rest on his laurels. Before 2006, he was proactive, making moves, bringing in players and then 2007 came and be brought in the injury plagued Moises Alou and dealt away pitching depth (Bell, Ring, Lindstrom, Owens, Bannister). I understand he was trying to be proactive with those moves, but he took an area of strength (bullpen depth) and made it a huge weakness that killed them down the stretch in 07 and 08.
Not to mention the fact that he brought in Alou in 07 and didn’t bring in a legitimate 4th OFer and then actually PICKED UP Alou’s option for 08 and still didn’t bring in a legitimate 4th OFer. For a 40 year old OFer who was injury plagued his entire career. I’m sorry but what exactly did he expect to happen there? And it’s not like Shawn Green and Ryan Church were going to pick up the slack when Alou inevitably went down.
And for a team with as weak a farm system as we had to just hand over a #1 pick for Alou defies description, and to top it off with such a disaster of a draft is really a franchise crippling move.
But yeah, we turned a bullpen with two non closer type A FA’s into Schwenweiss and Mota.
Good thinking.
Vinny: Really? How many games did Chris Young pitch terrible for the Mets? Because his arm exploded that’s Alderson’s fault? So if and when Harang gets hurt and the Padres are paying much more for him… then what? Would you rather have Chris Young with a fallback plan of Dillon Gee or Aaron Harang for 4x as much money?
You’re ridiculously unreasonable when it comes to this issue. Aaron Harang SAID he wanted to play in San Diego. Yet for some reason you are stuck on the fact Alderson didn’t sign him.
This is why people like me get so frustrated. You’ve even said you would have spent $7 or $8m on Harang. So you’d pay him more money than any starting pitcher on our active roster right now to be what? The 5th starter?
This has nothing to do with sabermetrics or moneyball. It has to do with operating a franchise and thinking about the future and a budget.
He didn’t say he ONLY wanted to play for SD, he just too less money to play there…but my point was how much less did he take?
And as I said before i have no idea if he would have come here even if we offered him that much. And if he didn’t I would have signed someone like Penny instead, and would have upgraded the bullpen, a guy I would i have liked to have seen us try to get(if we missed out on Harang) was Fuentes…he would have given us a good left hand pitcher out of the bulpen, I think that would have been a nice move.
Btw, Exteem is only saying Harang is a bad pitcher because I’m saying Alderson should have signed him – he said the Cubs should have signed Harang instead of trading for Garza, he said they would have gotten the same production for less money – If Xtreem REALLY thought he was a bad pitcher he wouldn’t have said that it would have been a good move for the Cubs to sign him.
Senorstem says:
May 19, 2011 at 8:55 pm
>>MLB…sure but in the end, all of those things did happen. You can make excuses and create caveats, but in the end, Omar Minaya’s teams just weren’t good enough to make the playoffs.<<<
No Senorstem/agee – what I am trying to do is provide CONTEXT. What you do is merely 2nd guess a person AFTER THE FACT
its like saying…OF COURSE Minaya should've traded Paul LoDuca in the 2006 off-season…why wouldnt he know that Paulie Dukes was gonna be injured and useless in 2007…and of course that had no bearing on the 2007 season right???
Paulie was our #2 hitter and hit .320 ( 2nd in MLB among all catchers…defense was good…called a great game…of course missing him had NOTHING to do with missing the playoffs )
all im saying is that when u criticize someone and not take into consideration the whole picture…its just pure hindsight bias…
all those guys that screamed at Omar for not signing Lackey, Eckstein, Lowe, Sheets, Zito pretty much disappeared once those guys were proven to be busts..
of course 5 years later its EASY to 2nd guess signing Alou…
what free-agent in the 2006 off-season do u sign to replace the oft-injured cliff floyd…???
omar's plan A – trade lastings milledge/aaron heilman to boston for manny…
well that went up in smoke as his boss did NOT want to pick up his salary…
what would EITHER one of u have done…
and now also know that u have NO RF either…as u had to trade Xavier Nady to Pitt because ur lockdown 8th inning man was in a car accident…
looking at things in a frame of context is NOT caveats and excuses…its looking at things realistically without a hindsight bias…
one mistake Omar made was letting the ruben gotay/willie randolph thing get out of hand…gotay was a decent hitter and good glove…not resolving that problem led to us not having a 2B for most of 2007 and the castillo trade…
( now do i know what the problem was? no…i dont know if gotay was caught butt-fawking willie's pet poodle…all i know is they had some issues…rg was in willie's doghouse….and it eventually led to castillo…who was great in 2007…but off-season surgery led to no working out…which led to chubby slow castillo in 2008…which led to fans giving him the josh thole twitter treatment in person…)
MLB…A GM who’s worth the money he’s being paid doesn’t have just one plan and if that falls apart, then he fills said spot with trash. A good GM has contingency plans set in place in case things don’t work out. Too often, it was proven that Minaya had a plan A and if that didn’t work, his plan B was to throw more money at trash. They didn’t get Manny Ramirez from the Red Sox? Okay, let’s throw an insane 2 year contract at Moises Alou, who’s 40 and give up our first round pick as well. Oh, we lost Chad Bradford because we didn’t offer him 3 yrs/10 million? No problem…let’s just throw 3 yrs/10.5 million at an inferior pitcher in Scott Schoeneweis because I need a veteran arm in the bullpen. Oh okay…Matt Holliday is really good but he’s also really expensive. No problem, let’s just throw 4 years/66 million at Jason Bay. He’s over 30 and not nearly as good a hitter as Holliday but we’re just one player away from contending here in 2010, right?
And please don’t tell me that I’m “second-guessing” the Alou deal. I hated that signing from day one. He was a Type A free agent who Minaya didn’t even give the Giants a chance to offer arbitration!!!! He willingly handed over his first rounder without any questions asked. For a 40 year old OFer. Who was injury prone his entire career!!! How is that a good move, especially when you bring in no contingency plan for once he inevitably gets injured? You want to talk about some of Omar’s good moves, sure…he had some. This one was just not one of them and it was obvious from day one.
injury prone his whole career?
he played in over 130 games 6 out of the previous 7 seasons…hit well..
and u forgot the major part of the deal…he only signed for 7 million !!!
Fred: U see Omar…i told u we could find a bahgain…Manny for 23 million? I’ll take a half-a-season of Moises for 7 million…all we had to do was pay him in pesos and billy goats
“2nd guessing? How about just a thoughtful examination of his record??”
sure…when that examination is done IN CONTEXT!!!
when u bring up context, people like to call it making excuses…
blaming Omar for the Wagner/Carter trade is INSANE
No way ON EARTH does Omar make that trade..that was the wilpons…
fact is..they have had their hands in the pot since they bought 50% of the club in 1986.
Trading Kevin Mitchell for vanilla-boring K-Mac..b/c he was a “bad influence” on Doc/Straw?!
Doc/Straw said that Mitch was actually the one that kept them IN CHECK
How about the Asst. GM Joe Mcllvaine trading my
favorite player of all time ( Nails ) for Juan Samuel…how does the ASST GM over-rule FRANK CASHEN!?!?
do u know what J-MC said after the trade???
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/19/sports/mets-get-samuel-for-mcdowell-dykstra.html
better yet…why is J-MAC making roster decisions…cuz the Wilpons already started messing it up…
when there was a chain of command ( 1980-1986 ) we were consistently on the rise…once the wilpons started sticking their nose in…(1987-Present) we have gotten different flavors of the same stuff
some gm’s were actually good but under the wilpons…u can only be so good for so long…
so my point on how it relates to Omar…is that b/c the lines of accountability are so fuzzy..u have to look at certain things with a different view…this org and how they operate is NOT NORMAL
people talk about Omar catering to the Hispanic crowd and making roster decisions off of it…
well look at what was said back in 1991
McIlvaine made the trade the day after running it past Johnson and after Cashen—much to his subsequent regret—endorsed it. There was one unmentioned element that clinched the deal. Samuel was Latin. “We were desperate to have a Latin on the team,” says one Met official, “especially with the great Latin American population in the city. We thought New York would love him.”
Problem was, Samuel hated New York and was even less comfortable in center-field. Since trading Dykstra and then Wilson (for Jeff Musselman) six weeks later, the Mets have auditioned 17 players in centerfield, and none has held the job for a full season.
——————————————–
no cries of racism…no “los mets” jokes ( being a white gm = u can sign anyone u want for whatever reason and never be called a racist)
the wilpons have been the root and source of the problem here at shea…and we will NEVER have sustained long term success until they are out of here.
The lines are blurry in the Met hierarchy, no question. No one outside the Organization can say with any certainty who made the Wagner/Carter deal but, like you, I suspect it was the Wilpon’s but that doesn’t mean that something done six months beforehand didn’t influence that decision.
Perhaps expanding the budget to trade for an injured JJ Putz (5 M + buyout) had something to do with it. Perhaps not obtaining a physical before consummating the deal or allowing him to pitch high stress innings in the WBC in March had something to do with it. Maybe it had to do with having nothing in AAA that could have stemmed the tide even for a little while. Most likely it was all of that in addition to the loss of millions upon millions of expected revenue in 2009.
Regardless it was self inflicted sabotage of the franchise regardless of how or why it occurred.
The facts are that during the Wilpon error we have been the most mismanaged franchise in MLB. Able to nab a post season berth only when one of our Division rivals furnishes us with some of the best players in baseball.
In the last twenty years we have had more losing seasons than winning one’s. Six times we have suffered 90+ loss seasons and again, the only time we’ve been to the post season is when the Marlins have taken themselves out of contention and shipped us some of the best players in the game.
That is a sad, sad way to run a sports franchise.
MLB…are you really going to argue that Moises Alou is NOT injury prone? Really? Your numbers are wrong.
He played 151 and 155 games in 2003/04. Surrounding those seasons, he played 0 games in 1999 missing the entire season after tearing his achilles falling off a treadmill, 126 in 00, 136 in 01, 132 in 02, 123 in 05 and just 98 in 2006, the year before he came to the Mets. He played in over 130 games in 5/8 seasons before coming to the Mets and played in over 140 games 2/8 seasons before signing with the Mets. Not exactly a great record of health. Injury plagued means that he had a lot of injuries and he had injuries that DL’d him every season, except for 03/04. That’s the definition of injury prone. Not to mention the small fact that he was 40!!!!!!!!!! It doesn’t really matter how little money the contract was for. It still doesn’t make it a good deal because they got little out of Alou and had to plug in replacement level players like Endy Chavez to fill time in left.
Excuse me but that should say he played at least 130 games only 4/8 seasons before coming to the Mets.
MLB, At one time I was Omar’s biggest supporter. I wish I had a nickel for each time I sais he was the right guy. A guy who finally gets it. “Younger and more athletic” I bought it all.
2nd guessing? How about just a thoughtful examination of his record? See this is the thing that always happens when someone is defending someone and cannot let the record speak for it’s self we get the old 2nd guessing complaint OR we get the old “well who else were we going to get to play __________?” that year as if it’s OK to make a bad signing that costs you for 3-4 years.
Plenty of curious moves went unquestioned early in Omar’s run by myself and every one else. There wasn’t ENOUGH 2nd guessing at the time to set off an early warning signal.
The thought process on Alou was hideous. Same with Putz, Perez, Castillo, Schowenweiss, Mota, Bay, Trading 2 #1 picks for Carter, the benches, the bullpen the AAA depth, the rotation. I mean get real.
Exactly. And part of that is just the fact that early on, you want to believe in these guys’ ability. Just like I’ll probably overlook some things that Alderson does, I did the same with Omar. You see what you want to see and winning cures all ills. The offseason after 2006 was terrible for Minaya. He signed Alou and gave up the first rounder, he re-signed both Valentin and El Duque to expensive deals that they never lived up to instead of looking for younger, better replacements. He traded Bannister, Bell, Ring, Owens and Lindstrom and literally ended up with nothing, ripping apart some young bullpen depth, which killed them down the stretch in 07 and 08. He also let go of Bradford and then paid Scott Schoeneweis MORE money despite his being a much much worse pitcher. Not to mention the awful 2 yr Mota deal, which was signed AFTER Mota had already tested positive for steroids.
Sorry, but you have to read the warning signs. Most of these deals were puzzling at the time and looking back, they look even worse then they did then.
Oh, i thought we couldn’t use hindsight? but now since he had a few bad starts we could.
Harang also leads the league in wins, pitching for the Padres who have one the worst offenses in the league, you forgot that part.
And how would getting Harang be a worse move than getting Young, who only made four starts?
Because Aaron Harang is a bad pitcher who hasn’t been healthy in three years. Young was a good pitcher who hasn’t been healthy in three years. The good pitcher wanted to play here. The bad one didn’t want to play anywhere but near his home. The good one took a million or so dollars. The bad one took over $3 million from the only team he wanted to play for.
Also, pitching wins are irrelevant. Harang leads the league in wins. So that means he’s pitching better than teammate Dustin Moseley?
And where’d you get that hindsight mess? No one’s using hindsight. You were the only one who wanted Harang in the first place. We all knew he’s a bad pitcher.
and we all knew young was injury risk, and guess what? he only made four starts, there’s no way you can spin it that Young was a better move than Harang.
let’s see what his numbers are like at the end of the year ok?
Young was a better move simply because it’s better to get a guaranteed good pitcher and hope for health than a guaranteed healthy pitcher and hope for results. You can overstock good pitchers and just keep rotating in the healthy ones, like the plan was with Gee.
Someone actually posted this when Young went down, and I’ll paraphrase. Young got $1.1 million for four great starts. Pro-rated, that’s $8.8 mil for a great season. And this guy wanted Harang for seven million.
Four starts isn’t even remotely close to a good sample size, but it’s interesting to think about what Young did give us, isn’t it?
Well, Harang had 5 great starts.
In his five wins his ERA is 2.03. So if we are going by the most great starts, Harang has Young beat.
Ha! Young had a better ERA in all of his starts than Harang has had in ONLY his good starts! Of course he has Young beat, Young only made……….four starts!!
Ha! harang would have gave the Mets 31 great innings while Young has only given the Mets 24 great innings. And young is now out for the year.
Again Vinny it comes down to the OLD way of doing things which hasn’t worked and got the Mets in this mess and a NEW way of doing things which is trying to save the big contracts for big players and not just throw money in the air at the winter meetings for whoever wants it.
If Alderson gave Harang $7m like you said you would have, he would’ve been laughed at first of all and secondly, what would you have said when he had a 5+ ERA and or got injured?
But we all knew Young was a HUGE risk, it wasn’t like his injury was unexpected – I wouldn’t have minded the Young contract if we signed another pitcher who wasn’t a big injury risk as capunano. Capuano in my opinion is a big risk as well. I thought counting on two guys that haven’t pitched much at all since 07 was a very bad idea.
And I don’t like both the New and the old way of doing things, the old way we gave out huge contracts(a one year contract for a pitcher is not a huge contract) and the new way we really didn’t make any improvments at all – they both aren’t good.
And just to put a bow on your $7m for Harang.
First I always like to remind you he wanted to play for San Diego.
San Diego is far… far away and a lot nicer than Flushing.
But away from that
You wanted to pay Aaron Harang a base salary more in 2011 than Pelfrey+Niese++Dickey.
And you’re trying to tell me giving Chris Young a performance bonus contract was a bad idea?
Just because it didn’t work, doesn’t mean its a bad idea.
Harang started 3 games in the 2nd half last year and only pitched in 5. Why would he have not been an injury risk as well?
And of course, no response from Vinny.
I did respond, you just did read it, i’ll post it again if you want:
“I understand that all of the pitchers available were risky, but I thought Harang was less of a risk even if we are paying him more money than Young and Cap – He started 46 games the last two years, and Cap and young COMBINED started 27 – so Harang almost started double the games by HIMSELF than young and cap COMBINED.”
There you go.
Vinny, First of all paying people double to come here is exactly what Omar used to do.
But your right. I don’t feel that recklessly “going for it” this year is worth it because by doing so, your always costing yourself something down the road. We’ve been “going for it” since 1998 and to what avail?
I didn’t share your enthusiasm of our lineup. I thought Beltran would be in and out and never really put together more than a 2 week hot streak. Obviously I was wrong about that. On the other hand I didn’t think Bay was going to play any better than he did last year. So far that’s been the case. Reyes and Ike I thought would play really well and I also thought Pagan would go about .280/.330/.400 with gold glove D and great baserunning but I didn’t like Emaus, didn’t think Murphy would make it and figured it unlikely that Turner would play well. Wright has been sinking into the muck for a couple of years now with close to 200 K’s expected by me. The bench had to include two guys who could play CF if neccesary and two who could play MI. That doesn’t lead to a lot of hitting so my feeling on the lineup (offense and D) was this:
Catcher C at best, 1B A- at best, 2B Likely a D, SS A, 3B C, LF D, CF B+, RF likely a D.
That’s the way I saw it during ST. I’ve been right on some, wrong on others but in both directions and I’m not even figuring the season ending injury or to who it might occur to either. So I disagree with you on it being a great lineup. Then and now.
I still see this season as one where the culture of meek acceptance of poor play being tolerated is eradicated and one in which we are competative on a game by game basis without costing ourselves ANYTHING at all from the future including prospects, draft choices, interfearing with prospect development by rushing them or hamstringing the payroll or a roster spot.
So if that means we are undermanned and have to fight and claw it out to hit .500, that’s OK with me because that will serve us better in the long run than bringing in another guy who’s just here because we’ll pay him double.
I’m not saying your wrong from a strict baseball sense but there are more than just this years baseball issues that need to be addressed.
“Vinny, First of all paying people double to come here is exactly what Omar used to do”
Harang signed for 3.5 million, so 7 million isn’t that much at all for a FA pitcher. 1 year 7 million – that isn’t a big contract like 4 years 70 million, or 3 years 37 million…..Omar’s problem wasn’t that he signed pitchers on one year contracts, Agee – It was the HUGE contracts, 1 year 7 million isn’t a huge contract.
I understand that there’s more than just this year agee – which is why I’m only saying to sign guys to one or two year deals – it’s not gonna kill the future if we signed Harang for 7 million this offseason, or penny for 3 million – not at all.
accept that apparently was the entire free agent budget this past offseason
Well, OBVIOUSLY if we only had 7 million to spend then it wouldn’t be a good idea, but we had more to spend than that.
No, you just gave out $10 million in contracts.
LOL…would’ve been pretty bad to waste all the offseason money on Aaron Freakin’ Harang.
Sandy got two good pitchers (Capuano and Young) for 2.5 million. Unfortunately Young got hurt, but he was just as much of an injury risk as Harang, who got more money. I’m sure Vinny was one of those people on the Brandon Webb bandwagon, too. How many games has he started this season? The last three seasons?
Exactly.
I never said to spend all of the offseason money on Harang. You can just read what I said about that up top: “Well, OBVIOUSLY if we only had 7 million to spend then it wouldn’t be a good idea, but we had more to spend than that.”
So there’s that, and I never said I wanted Webb, you can ask anyone on here, and I never said I wanted to sign him, and I’m glad we didn’t.
and Harang isn’t just as much as an injury risk as Young.
All we know for sure is that he did have 13M, cause that’s all he spent. Did he hold some back for the trading deadline? Go over slot next month? Sign some IFA’s when the July signing period comes around?
We don’t know and we may never but if that IS what happened I’m in full agreement that those sort of longer vision moves will pay off for us substantionaly better than Harang over Young for one year.
Most teams (and all successful one’s) prepare for this year as well as subsequent one’s as a natural matter of course. We don’t. We are always singuarly focused on this year and that leads to talent shortfalls every year.
If the pendulum went the other way for a change that’s cool with me. I want to compete for a World Championship every year, not just once or twice a decade.
Omar’s plan was to eventually replace all the expensive players with guys that he drafted…and supplement with a free-agent or 2
the plan the wilpons had in October 2004 was to WIN NOW…
as the yanks were just coming off their 10th straight post-season run…and with all the attention…mets had a dwindling attendance…and an embarrasing past few years…no way in HELL the wilpons stomach another rebuilding session…
they had just purchased the club in 2002…
2002 – embarrasing failure
2003 – embarrasing failure
2004 – embarrasing failure
here comes Omar…
the mets are old…expensive…and the farm system sucks..all they have is david wright and jose reyes…free-agents dont really want to come here…not with all the negativity surrounding the team…
the fact that he got us within 1 AB of the world series…and the best overall record in the NL from 2005-2008…broke attendance records 3 years straight…AND rebuilt the farm system to something respectable all the while making trades for johan/delgado/loduca is nothing short of amazing…sandy inherits a flawed but much younger and talented major league squad. the mets minor league system right now has not been this good since the mid-80′s…
no? disagree?
how many all-stars have the mets drafted/signed as international free-agents since 1984 ?
4 – edgardo alfonzo, jose reyes, david wright, nelson cruz
( and jose reyes/wright/cruz were brought in when omar was running scouting from 97-01 )
Omar was the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting under Phillips. Alfonzo was signed while Omar was working for Texas.
But Omar did a real good job in building a competative team for now and restocking with something for later however it is nearly impossible to do both at the same time.
He gave away FIVE 1st, TWO 2nd and ONE 3rd round draft choice. He also failed to make the right call on walking Perez and Castillo costing two supplemental round picks, not to mention **** play and drafted numerous college RELIEF pitchers for their potential to get up here and do something ASAP instead of drafting guys would be here for a long time.
The success he did have at the ML level came at the expense of future teams. Just like Phillips and Duquette did.
The fact is you cannot have a massive rebuild of BOTH the Majors and the Minors at the same time. One has to take precedence over the other but in this organization it’s always about THIS YEAR, ticket sales, renewels, advertising and never ever ever about building a team for a long and sustained run.
That’s why we’re always in the same situation. One or two post season’s every decade, a couple of near misses and five years of sub .500 baseball, with the NL’s largest payroll.
Omar wasn’t the problem, he was the solution. He knew better, but just like all the rest, he took his place in line. Sacrificed for the all important ticket sales THIS YEAR rather than preciding over SRO for a solid decade.
1st – I said reyes/wright/cruz were found under Omar…never claimed alfonzo…read closer..
2nd – omar’s success on the ML level did not really come at the expense of future success…
he traded a bunch of scrubs for delgado and loduca…traded another bunch of scrubs for johan…traded 2 scrubs for castillo…who did help in the 2007 run more than he hurt…
3rd – what people conviently forget is that omar went after david eckstein and derek lowe BEFORE going after castillo and perez…( so much for the omar is trying to build a latin dream team )
and people think castillo was a bust? eckstein wanted 4 year / 40 million…derek lowe originally wanted 90 mil over 5 years…settled for 60 mil over 4 years…
combined those would’ve cost the mets 100 million had omar signed them…ollie/castillo? combined cost 60 million…
now being that 2B was a perrenial black hole since alfonzo left in 2001…alomar—>matsui—>reyes–>valentin
only 3 options that off-season…castillo…matsui…and eckstein…
First I find the whole Latin thing a big distraction and a longtime disregarded source of player procurment.
Second, it doesn’t matter what Ollie and Castillo cost. It was the thought process behind paying them. A wildly inconsistent starting pitcher making the same average annual salary as Pedro did? Sorry Pass. A 32 year old second basemen who needs surgery on BOTH knees for 4 years? Please.
A #1 draft choice VOLUNTARALLY handed over for a 40 year old LFer?
100 M in closers and TWO #1 draft choices? Forget about signing Schowenweiss and Mota.
A #2 for Bay and 80 M?
Two #1′s for Chris Carter.
Didn’t he go hard after Zito?
There were a lot of things that Omar did that detracted from our chances to win down the road and I don’t buy the old “well who else were we going to get to play 2B” to explain away yet another bad signing. He did inherit Keppinger, exchanged him for Gotay, cut him, traded away A. Hernandez and had to reacquire him plus he had A. Reyes. We could have just played one of those guys and used the 6M someplace where it would have done some good and not tied up a useless roster spot and come back around to 2B the following year.
It was year 3 of his regieme. He could have gone into someone else’s farm system and looked around for an adequate hold the fort guy until the right guy came around. He knew what kind of shape the farm was in when he took over but he concentrated all his resources and attention on the 25.
Making a bad signing can never be excused away by the failure to plan ahead.
You gotta stay on facts here.
First off there is no evidence he went “hard” after Zito who ended up in San Francisco, which by the way horrible as it was did not deter them from winning a title.
The combined salaries of Wagner and KRod were not $100MM. While the 2006 draft was certainly promising and losing the 18th pick in a deep draft is hard to argue, there is little evidence yet that losing the 24th pick in 2009 was much ado about anything. Especially considering that the 2008 pick we gained from the Braves signing Tom Glavine turned into oh yeah Ike Davis. So you win some, you lose some.
Way early to tell if losing a second round pick was devastating in 2010, thus far the returns on round 1, 4, 5, 6 look fairly promising.
He did some bad things, I’d land firmly on the Perez and Castillo deals being bizarre over bidding, but he also made plenty of good ones and lest we forget the following players he did get
Davis, Turner, Murphy, Tejada, Pridie, Pagan, Martinez, Gee, Pelfrey, Niese, Thole.
He was not as empty as people said.
I’m not saying he was empty at all. I feel he could have done it but got so far skewed toward THIS YEAR that he cost us (and himself) down the road.
Wagner 44, Rodriguez 54, Putz 6 including buyout is over 100 M if K-Rod’s option vests. How about the #1 picks given away? Drabek and Grichuk (or Trout) Sorry. That really hurts down the road and is a lot more than much ado about nothing. The fact is we COULD have drafted the #1 prospect in all of the minor leagues. Exactly the type of player this team so sorely needs. 720 outs over 4 years isn’t worth a #1 pick ever, let alone twice in 4 years.
Granted there is no guarantee that we would have drafted those guys (or signed them) but that’s a big part of why this team is short 5-10 spots on the roster every year and without keeping the picks we never have a chance to get the high end talent that will be in OUR uniform in it’s prime.
Kunz? Vineyard? Moviel? Mulvey? Leaving it up to chance that we get back a couple of high draft choices on a 40 year old? Whew we did get lucky there but it’s not good business practice to leave things up to luck.
Davis was a good pick but hardly a find and we got him from equal parts luck and sentamentality. Turner cut by Baltimore passed through the entire AL and is a 7th round talent. Good pick up. Murphy, good pick, will always be able to help someone 13th round talent. Tejada very talented good sign excellent backup MIer at the least. I like him but he was rushed up here. Pridie another guy who passed through the entire AL on waivers now coming on in his prime good pick up but again, not high end talent despite where he was drafted. Like him though and this is the type of move we should have been utilizing more often. Pagan, inherited, traded, reacquired both moves related to rosters. options ect. Fern. The most underwhelming prospect I have ever seen in my entire life. Seen him play in the DR a bunch of times too. Gee. Great pick. Really like him Pelf at #9 1st round? Tulo went #7. Some drafts are like that, not Omar or Terrases fault. Disapointing with the loss of #2 and #3 though but can’t complain. Niese very good pick. Thole. Every team has a Thole, few are in the Majors.
Overall if you think Omar did a good job with IFA’s Draft choices, waiver wire, rule 5 ect then you would have wanted him to have done more of it, not less. If he had done more we would easily have had 5 excellent under team control roster spots filled with truly talented young players here for a long time to come, and that’s what’s disapointing about the whole thing.
And there is plenty of evidence that Omar went after Zito as the #1 target of the 2006-2007 off season which would have cost the #1 we gave up for Alou (which could have been Tommy Hunter or Mike Stanton, either of which would have been huge for us)
Just imagine how much better those drafts would have been if he didn’t waste picks on guys like Eddie Kunz or give away picks for old type-A FA’s.
tagee – drabek was a stud HIGH SCHOOL prospect signed OVERSLOT…phils had to pay him EXTRA to not go to COLLEGE…
why do u think the mets habitually get college guys…cuz they dont have as much leverage…and they dont have to get into a dragged out process..the one time they did ( beato ) ended embarrasing as the wilpons did not want to pay 250K extra…beato aired them out and praised omar when he was drafted by the orioles in 2006…so bringing up ANY OF THESE stud HIGH SCHOOL PROSPECTS is NULL AND VOID..u know why they drafted milledge? cuz he wasnt going to college!!
they didnt care about the stat rape case…they cared about him being able to sign for cheap and being talented…
beato wanted a mil…wilpons said they stop at 750k…and lost that pick…
by the way…phils signed drabek for 1.75 mil
mets picked kevin mulvey ( who was later flipped for johan ) and then picked joe smith ( who is a pretty good reliever now )
u know what BIG MARKET TEAMS DO???
they pay 1 mil for Delin Betences in the 8th round of the draft to scrap his commitment to vanderbuilt…
http://thebirdsofprey2.com/ar/t1072.htm
by the way…delin betences was scouted by the mets at the same time they scouted beato…
so yeah…id rather get a lock down closer in wagner and not resign braden looper for peanuts and pick up kevin mulvey with the 17th pick cuz he is signable..
had Omar not addressed the closer situation in 2005 u’d be crying that he didnt do his job…
foh
MLB, the failure in thought process is clearly on the Wilpon’s here. I’ve been screaming for years about this drafting less talented, older prospects because of this whole issue but that is no reason for us to give away the picks.
We have to start drafting the most talented kids and PAY them to come out early, not college senior’s who have no other choice but to sign.
Is it any wonder we have gone 40 years without a LFer we have developed that made the All Star game? 25 years in RF?
How can we compete with teams that go over routinely?
tagee – to make it worse
while the yankees were scouting in latin america for decades and finding guys like jose rijo..mariano rivera…roberto kelly…bernie williams…etc..
mets from 1962-1997 only found 1 starter from their international scouting..
(edgardo alfonzo)
mets under minaya found reyes/nelson cruz/ubaldo jiminez from 1997-2001
in 4 yrs minaya’s team of scouts outperformed the mets team of scouts over the course of 35 years…
i havent even mentioned tejada…flores…familigla mejia…puello…marte…aderlin…javier rodriguez…
international scouts usually take about 5-6 years to develop on avg..
if they are signed at 16…start playing at 17…they are about 22-23 when they hit the league..u do have the exceptions ( king felix, hanley, reyes, etc )
u should see the fruits of omar’s scouts in 2012/2013
as it RIGHT NOW…tejada at age 20 is looking like a decent find…
and he is ONLY 20…
reese havens is turning 24…
marinate on that
Hey MLB, Dotel and Ordonez were signed too under Harazin/Hunsicker. Mora came from Houston but we might have known of him. Ubaldo wasn’t signed.
The fact is the Mets did a horrendous job in that area of the World. Horrendous.
There is no good reason not to allocate 10M for the IFA market every year and extract the best talent possible and then develop the players with the intent of keeping them, bringing them to Queens, but keep your draft picks to and go over slot. Forget the FA trap. At best those guys give you 3/5 of what you pay for and frequently enough nothing.
Keep the team competitive through the next few years by acquiring players that don’t cost you draft choices. Type B, rule 5, non tender, promotion from the minors but if you faithfully scout, sign, develop the draft and IFA you can have a perenial contender for a solid decade in about 5 years.
Five years sounds like a long time but we’ve been waiting TWENTY TWO YEARS.
The only time we’ve qualified for the playoffs is when either Florida, or BOTH Florida and Atlanta tank.
What kind of a freakin’ plan is that?
i couldnt count ordonez cuz there is no scouting allowed in cuba…
mets won a lottery to negotiate with ordonez
dotel was a reliever…
so yeah..
in 35 years…
1 starting position player from the international scouting system..
we need “pimp my ride” style makeover for this org..
put Omar on the Pirates/Royals and their fanbases allow him to build a team slowly…and I bet u he has a team as talented as the rays..
where omar needed serious work was in roster management…at his very core ( and i think he realizes this now ) is that omar is a scout..who can be a good gm if this were fantasy league…but there are decisions he fumbled beyond signs/trades that caused damage…he wouldve been best served as an asst under sandy for a few years to learn the ropes properly..
Yeah but Omar knew the deal. He talked about younger and more athletic then went Pedro, Moises, Julio, El-Duque, Wagner, Delgado. All were fine except for Alou.
At that point he was flying to close to the sun and from there it just got totally out of hand.
He knew the job he was in for. He knew many of the players in the minors. He hadn’t even been gone that long and was still in the NL East.
He could have done it the right way and have us on top for ten years straight and then just have to tinker with the roster to keep it going.
Guys would have loved coming here and not just to get paid double either.
Now we have to pick up the pieces and start all over. Some of his guys no doubt will come through in a few years but we’ve still squandered the best years of the best players we’ve ever produced. Now they may be gone due to having overpaid so many guys we never should have taken a chance on in the first place.
Hey the Knicks had to take a step back for a few years. The NYY did under Michael. I don’t buy this “you can’t rebuild in NY” mentality.
One thing you have to do is WIN in NY. Win or you become irrelevant. We’ve been irrelevant, with rare interludes, for 14 of the last 22 years.
@t_agee
Wagner’s base contract was 4/$43MM option was not used. Frankie’s base deal is 3/$37MM before option, which will never kick in unless the Mets are contending anyway.
Last time I checked 43+37 did not equal 100. Even if you want to try and squeeze Putz into that it is not 90.
You can’t cry about Drabek and Grichuck and then say Davis was not a find and just dumb luck. That makes NO SENSE.
Your assessment of value is totally arbitrary. To say 720 outs is not worth a number one pick without evaluating if those number one picks turn into anything is complete and utter non-sense. Developing a good minor league system is important, but the MLB draft is hopelessly overrated by fans. Especially first round picks who far more often than turn into junk. Having a good deep, well versed scouting system is important, so that your entire draft is deep and well served year to year.
And please do not tell me that Grichuk is the number one prospect in all the minor leagues. I do not have the patience for that type of speculation.
The 2006 draft was deep and Minaya likely had a very very bad read on that in signing Wagner, but the Mets made a run at a title, did not work out.
the “latin” thing = a big distraction?
please explain…
im talking about the fact that the mets have not taken advantage of the globalization of baseball, while other teams with less money do it over and over…
1 – who would u have signed to play 2B in 2007…with matsui and eckstein asking for 40 mil as ur other options.
2 – omar had a deal in place for MANNY RAMIREZ…it was lastings/aaron heilman for manny and his 20 mil salary…wilpons wanted bos to pick up more of that…boston said no…manny carries them to another WS…omar left to scrap at the bottom of the barrel for a LF…finds Moises for 7 mil…moises hits .340 in half a season…wilpons are happy with meaningful games in september
3 – u really think omar wanted to save a million dollars so he can trade billy wagner for chris carter…do u NOT SEE THE WILPONS ALL OVER THIS TRADE???
Couldnt find reply button on your other comment about Minaya givin up a #1 pick for Wagner, Cashman doing it for Feliciano.
Wanted to add that Billy Beane gave up 2000 first rounder for 35 year old Mike Magnante, a LOOGY.
If this guy had told me what he was going to post I would have given him a heads up…lol
Needless to say Omar Minaya was:
In 1998 AGM (Only one with that title)
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=1998
In 1999 AGM AND Dir of Intl Scouting (Duquette was GM AND Dir PP)
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=1999
In 2000 AGM AND Dir of Intl Scouting (same as 1999)
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=2000
In 2001 Senior AGM AND Director of Intl Scouting (Both Duquette and Fusco report to the SENIOR AGM as the title suggests)
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=nym&year=2001
In 2002 Omar goes to the Expos!
SO Omar has always been #2 in the Phillips Administration. And was in charge of NOT ONLY SCOUTING but Player Development as well!
You can argue semantics of WHO sat at a table and said a name but the guy who said it did NOT decide who to say!
He made reccomendations to his boss as anyone who is about to to in any normal corporate setting and the Boss says OK go ahead!
He’s no different than you average stock broker who doesn’t just sell your shares without your input he calls you and says hey I think we should sell or buy and once you decide what to do he goes and does the work, Thats all, he doesn’t RUN the draft he doesn’t tell Omar or Phillips who he is picking whether they like it or not, They approve and he does the deed!
Now if you want to prove that Fusco was actually deciding who it was we decided to pick without EVER consulting with his bosses I suggest you show some proof of that. I have just offerred proof of the Titles in the front office and you can see that The only ones who were above Omar in Title were the Wilpons, Doubleday and Phillips!
And if he is DIRECTLY above all the guys you think were responsible for those picks he was RESPONSIBLE for those picks!
The proof is given, If you got some that says otherwise I would love to see it!
The Director of Amateur Scouting collects the scouting reports and runs the draft in consultation with the GM. That’s his job description.
Duquette wasn’t the GM in 1999 either. That was Phillips.
Who does what in a corporate hierarchy is not determined by who they report to, it’s determined by their job title.
A minor league pitching coordinator might report to the minor league coordinator but HE’s the one who works with minor league pitchers, not his boss.
Similarly, the major league hitting coach may report to the manager but that doesn’t mean the manager assumes his duties, it just means that he that he reports to him.
The international scouts would report to the Director of INTERNATIONAL Scouting. The Domestic scouts would report to the Director of Amateur Scouting.
The biggest function of the Director of Amateur scouting is the MLB rule 4 June Amateur draft. Yhat’s why organizations like Baseball America rate the Director of Amateur Scouting on his drafts as opposed to the hitting coach, minor league field coordinator or Sr. Asst. GM and Director of International Scouting who presumably would be hunkering down with his own scouts in preperation for HIS biggest day. The July 2nd signing day for 16 year old INTERNATIONAL Amateurs.
Carmen Fusco and his asst Gary Larougue ran the draft for Phillips from 1999-2003. Unfortunately they flat out blew FOURTEEN of SEVENTEEN 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks during Phillips tenure here.
Nothing anyone in the baseball business would want on their resume. Thankfully for Omar he was on the other side. The international side. Ask him someday and you’ll get a quick denial, not just from him but from anyone that could reasonably detatch themselves from those drafts. They were among the worst draft of all time in MLB history.
Again, just to recap. The mailman may report to his supervisor but that does not mean that the supervisor delivers the mail. The mailman does, he simply reports to the supervisor.
Tag, The Art Director of a Film gets an Academy Award for Art Direction. But nothing she put on that set did not have to be approved by the Director!
Thats the way companies work!
I don’t care how someone RATES a Director under a boss, Do they get some credit for it? SURE! They GAVE THE BOSS the information his department collected and his boss said ok now go get these guys off that list!
And they all reported to Minaya who then took the info to Phillips where they could discuss and decide who on that list to take!
I’m not trying to give Minaya credit for Phillips work But we all know Phillips didn’t bother with the day to day of scouting and development.
He was too busy on the phone making trades and banging employees!
Omar did all the development side for Phillips, Phillips handled all the contracts and deals while Omar pretty much did the rest.
All the guys in that organization get CREDIT!
The guys who did the work, the guys who hired them,
the guys who managed them…
ALL of them.
Some of the best players this team has drafted and aquired have been on Omar’s Watch.
If you can’t accept that and the roles his titles gave to him then there is no point in discussing it.
ottom line is if your a AGM and there is a Senior AGM in the department, HE IS YOUR BOSS! HE MUST APPROVE WHAT YOU DO!
And if he doesn’t he will fire you!
Metsie we could never know if Omar had ANYTHING to do with those Phillips drafts. I would guess not due mostly to the fact that those drafts were awful. Among the absolute worst in the history of MLB.
There is some documented evidence though that discusses Phillips in the 2002 draft after Omar left that shows Phillips was cognizant of the draft in your favorite book. Moneyball.
I have repeatedly credited Omar with building a lot of depth and some high ceiling talent in the minors. I was expecting more and sooner in the IFA market but maybe that was unrealistic.
I’ve also stated how theses ridiculous slotting guidelines must have hampered him and how they may have even caused him to say the hell with the draft and hasten his signing of FA’s but I will not credit him with Wright or I’m going to “credit” him with all the busts of the Phillip’s era.
Think about it. 14 busts out of 17 1st, 2nd or 3rd round picks. That’s awful.
I’ll tell you what I’ll do though. I’ll e mail Gary Cohen, as knowledgeable Met historian as there is though at SNY and see if we can get him to answer this question.
I have to warn you though. I know it was Carmen Fusco who wanted Wright.
Anyway, hope your getting OB with those super models Metsie.
Have a good time.
Well Tag there is no proof that Fusco actually picked the players we got in the draft either.
You don’t think Directors get over ruled by their bosses?
If we follow YOUR conclusion during the year Omar was GM then it would Say Omar isn’t responsible for ANY player we ever drafted, Neither was Cashen, McIlvane, Phillips or Bing Devine!
There was airing during one of the rain outs of Mets Yearbooks for 1967-73.
In one scene you see Devine and Herzog on screen discussing the draft. Herzog tells Devine what he thinks we should do and who we might get in the draft.
We eventually took Matlack in that draft.
I know god forbid you should give Omar any credit for all the good he HAS done here.
But in your attempt to strip him of credit you strip everyone who has ever been with the mets above the level of director and pretty much trying to say they don’t do anything but wear suits!
Which is truly just rediculous!
But you go on and believe Omar had nothing to do with it!
The rest of us won’t buy your story though.
Metsie your so crazed to besmirch Minaya’s resume with Phillips legacy of historic draft ineptitude that your now claiming that Omar was the Director of Player Personal?
Then why would Dave Wallace and Jim Duquette be holding those title’s while Omar was holding other one’s?
They were holding those title because they worked for Omar! They ran the department for their boss!
Just as any worker runs a department with a guy above them to tell you what to do!
It is really quite Simple. Phillips handled the BUSINESS END of GM!
Omar handled the day to day arraifs which INCLUDE, Scouting and Developing!
The director of SCOUTING and DEVELOPING both reported to Omar who Reproted to Phillips.
It’s not a difficult thing to figure out.
Look at the titles they had BEFORE Omar was Senior GM
Were they his equal?
NO they were MERE Directors!
Omar AGM! Wallace was a SA to the GM, Right below Omar (it is listed in the pecking order of their staus if you just bothered to look. There WAS NO INTL the first year!!!!!!!!
Duquette got a promotion the next year which could at best say they were equals. That is until 2001 When Omar was promoted as well to be Above Duquette again.
You don’t need to be a genius, just visit each link and look at how they are listed. They are listed by the SENIORITY!
And for the entire Time Omar was here he was the senior of everyone the day he got here and the day he left!
Everyone except Phillps and the Owners!
Well again Metsie, each person does their job. We’re just guessing but we’re not even looking at a flow chart Organizational hierarchy.
The only thing we can difinetively say is that Reyes, Wright. Kazmir and Pagan were acquired when Phillips was the GM. Same as the other 600 or so busts of his drafts.
In any event I’ll try to get a difinitive answer from Cohen (you can try too) and we’ll see what comes of that.
Of infinitly more importance who are you backing (or backing into) in the miss USA?
lets not forget Omar had a much better track history of scouting than jim duquette…its not a stretch to say that he would be in charge of scouting lol
Omar was in charge of International Scouting.
Gary Laroque was Phillips first Director of Amateur Scouting and then was made Carmen Fusco’s Asst. when Fusco became the Director of Amateur Scouting in 1999.
No different than Russ Bove being Omar’s first Director of Amateur Scouting in 1995 and then being replaced by Rudy Terasses from 1996-2010.
“Gary Laroque was Phillips first Director of Amateur Scouting and then was made Carmen Fusco’s Asst. when Fusco became the Director of Amateur Scouting in 1999″
Right and who was next in line on the chain of command when you look at their titles.
Because the next guy in the chain of command up was Omar, Which means yes he DID direct the international operations, but he MANAGED all the other directors as well because he was AGM! The guy between Phillips and everyone below him.
I’m not guessing the title says it all!
You don’t get a better title than someone else unless you are their boss!
All Directors regardless of their respective departments report to the Asst GM. I’m sure the GM is there on some of those reports as well such as the meeting where WHO we draft is discussed!
Anyone who works in a corporate enviornment had better know what those titles are and mean because if not you will PO some boss off and get yourself fired!
And if you need further indication of exactly what role Omar had under the Phillips regieme look no further than the promotion of Duquette to AGM that year. What was Duquette’s role in the organization at the time.
Director of Player DEVELOPMENT. Meaning he was in charge of developing who we had.
That means Omar was in charge of the rest! The management at that point was split into two parts…
Evaluation Aquisition and Development.
Duquette ran Development, Omar ran EA!
Then another year Later Omar is promoted to SENIOR meaning he got bumped up above Duquette which suggests that he reported to Omar DESPITE the fact they had equality of title for those two years!
Omar started off as Duquette’s Bos and Finished as such.
That alone tells you a lot about the corridors of power and influence during the Phillips regieme!
“you don’t get a better title than someone else unless their your boss.”
That would imply that EVERYONE with a better title is EVERYONE else’s boss.
How many bosses can one person have?
Organizations have many different area’s of business split up into different groups. Minaya’s 2nd title was created especially for him. He wasn’t named the Director of Amateur scouting, he was named the Director of IINTERNATIONAL Scouting. That’s where his expertise was and what he specialized in when he served in his role as Director of International Scouting. Presumably he did a little bit of just about everything a GM does as the SR Asst GM but what areas he did more in and which one’s less who knows?
What we do know is as far as scouting goes he was directing our international effort.
A corporation that does business across the globe will undoubtably employ Corporate tax attorneys and hire some one to run the Dept. That person would hire someone to run the domestic side and someone else to run the international side. Sometimes they would collaborate but that doesn’t mean that they do each others job. That they specialize in one thing as a matter of their job description and then function in an entirely different capacity in real life.
An Asst GM would assist the GM in whatever area the GM directed him. As Phillips Asst I would believe that Minaya assisted Phillips in almost all areas of the business but I wouldn’t expect that he would usurp another one of Phillips employees from doing the very thing he specializes in.
The facts are that the very title given to Carmen Fusco (Director of Amateur Scouting) more than just implies that his sole function in the organization is to direct scouting resources and find amateur baseball players for us to draft. There is no skewing of his job like with an Asst GM who might handle contract, roster issues, visa problems, player options, direct the traveling secretary, work with the media, HELP with scouting issues, check the weather on rainy days, negotiate with agents, other Asst GM’s, make budgets, HELP with the minor league field coordinator, interview a potential employee, an intern, HELP with the marketing Dept, Ticket Dept, Promotion Dept., cooridinate player community involvement, meet with season ticket holders, Help out whenever and where ever the GM requests. Probably in every facet of the business but that doesn’t mean he went to the batting cage to teach Melvin Mora how to hit or that he showed up on draft day to insist we draft Heilman at #18, Wright at #38, Turay at #70, Rangsdale at #76, DiNardo at #102 or Walker at #132 or any of the other 600 washouts Fusco identified as the best overall choice.
By the rationale that Omar had to be involved in the domestic draft, maybe Fusco was the guy who identified and signed Reyes. Obviously we know that’s not the case because there have been numerous reports of how Eddy Toledo called Omar about Reyes and sought authorization to sign him. No such reports exist about Omar scouting or drafting Wright or anyone else for that matter.
Speculation that he might have been involved in the decision is certainly fair enough but it would only be based on pure guess work that is mostly at odds with the area of scouting he specialized in.
The fact is your crazed to credit Omar with drafting Wright when there is absolutely nothing to indicate that Minaya ever even heard of Wright before we drafted him.
There is nothing to indicate that Minaya ever heard of any of the top picks selected by Phillips/Fusco during his tenure and the fact is nobody’s ever heard of any of them after wards because 13 of his 17 first, second and 3rd round picks busted. That’s one of the highest bust rates imaginable.
For all you or anyone else know Minaya could have insisted that we take all thirteen of those washouts.
Somehow I doubt that. because he was fully in charge of the international end of things as well as the day to day functions of assisting the GM.
“How many bosses can one person have?”
Watch the movie office space…
“That would imply that EVERYONE with a better title is EVERYONE else’s boss”
Now you are getting it!
In the Corporate world the guy above the guy you report to IS ALSO YOUR BOSS! Just as the guy HE reports to is your Boss.
Corporations work on a pyramid of power. One guy at the top (the owner/President) who has minions (VPs) Who over see and evaluate the GM who has his own minions (AGMS) who manage the various Directors who Manage the STAFF!
No one save the GM and above was above Omar at anytime. Duquette was an EQUAL at some point running the DEVELOPMENT side but Omar was he boss BEFORE the equal and promoted to be his boss AGAIN at the end which says to any sane individual that Omar was always Duquette’s Boss even the two years they were titled EQUALLY!
Why was Omar able to convice Phillips to make some trades?
Because he had a handle on the scouting AND development departments to know what we had to make the trades with!
You can close your eyes to this reality if you want but thats the way it was!
And therefore until you have SOME PROOF that Omar wasn’t in on it his job title and the structure and timing of the structure of the front office says he ran both the scouting a development issues for Phillips, HE WAS PHILLIPS GUY!
I think Omar’s plan was to get most of the starting pitching from the draft and position players from the IFA market which is not a bad idea however I don’t think that Omar realized just how long it might take to get some of these 16 and 17 year old’s to the Majors and how flat out difficult it is to project at that age.
Catcher was Pena, Gronuer, Thole. That’s not substantial
1B was really only Davis. One guy?
2B was Havens, Valdespin, Pellot and potentially Tejada. somewhat credible effort
SS Just Flores who’s not a SS. Bad job.
3B Murphy, Lutz, Marte Rodriguez with Wright already here? decent job.
OF Newenhaus, Puello, Vaughn, Cecilini, Den Deker. Not bad.
P Mejia, Familla, Harvey, Cohoon, Niese, Pelfrey, Gee, Matz, Owen, Rodriguez, Urbina. The high end guys aren’t here yet but a pretty good overall job so far, could wind up being anywhere from OK-great when all is said and done.
I’ve been very critical of Omar’s go for broke strategy when he really didn’t have the horses but I recognize that the GM does in fact work FOR someone and gets pointed in the direction that person wants them to go.
Omar has filled with ranks with some potential high end talent and some at least credible depth but the thing that I fall back on is what could he have done with the four extra #1 picks he gave up? What could he have done with the two extra supplemental round picks he could have had? What could he have done with the two 2nd round picks he gave up? Of course you could ask what could he have done with being allowed to go over slot? but that’s a question for another debate and one that will always cloud his legacy.
But as far as taking away from the future. How can you say those eight first, supplementary or 2nd round picks wouldn’t have turned into one star and 2 other good players on the 25 beginning in 2010 and carrying onward to 2016 at least.
Easily we could have Drabek (lost by signing Wagner) and Vargas (lost by trading for Putz) How are we better without them?
Can’t call SS a bad job and only point to Flores. There is every distinct possibility that Tejada lands at short where he would be if he becomes a solid major leaguer likely better than average for the position.
There are a lot of balls in the air, there is no way to say that any of the lost picks would have or would not have turned into one start and two other good players. It is already beyond fortunate that the Mets have two first round picks from the Omar drafts making an impact on the major league roster in Pelfrey and Davis.
In that same time frame not many teams have done as well or better Rays got Longoria and Price. Red Sox did extremely well in 2005 and got Bard in 2006. Lot of green to see how they play.
I’ll give you Omar did not quite due as well as he thought in the international scouting ring to compensate for his draft approach and loss of picks via free agency, but there is a lot to be told still of Omar Minaya’s legacy.
At best Tejada becomes a average bat/good glove SS. Not exactly something to right home about.
at best tejada develops in the player we thought ruben gotay was going to be…or the one we hoped anderson hernandez would be…
i think in this ballpark…with those gaps…he and reyes would have a field day…he has some pop in his bat…
and again…he is only 20 years old…last year he was the youngest kid in the majors…
i really think tejada can develop into something special and allow us to trade reese havens for pitching
Ruben Tejada has pop? I understand that he’ll probably fill out a bit more since he’s young but this is a guy with a .358 minor SLG percentage. .358 SLG! That’s not pop in any sense of the word. Even his .407 SLG in Buffalo this season does not show this “pop” he has. He’s likely to be a good backup, maybe a starter at SS for a second division team.
While we cannot say whether any of the forfeited picks would have netted us a starting player or two they certainly would have at the very least still been assets going forward.
They would right now be providing depth and competition for our farm, still be regarded as prospects by other teams and as such could be used in trades or even just to hold the fort for a year or two so you don’t have to make a four year commitment to a guy you wind up having to cut in the middle of his contract.
The pick giftwrapped for Alou could have been Jordan Zimmerman or Mike Stanton. The fact is we turned that pick into a LFer we had for 100 games and paid 15 M for it and that was that. End of value. Just like Pedro, Wagner, Delgado, Castillo, Perez, Valentin, El-Duque, Floyd, Cedeno, Weathers. We spend the pick, hopefully get a couple of years out of them but the value chain ends when they leave. That’s why we keep running out of players.
what makes you think we are going after HS kids in the 1st round?!!?
do you NOT have enough data to make the assumption that we are not going to offer a #17 pick 1 million bucks..
plus..
in the 2006 off-season…what would have been your plan..
you come within 1 strike of getting the WS…u have no LF…the one u did have came up lame in September…this is the end of year 2 of ur tenure as met gm and u dont have the assets in the farm to make any trades for a LF just yet…well u do…but ur ownership just turned down a deal for manny ramirez…
craft your plan…
i’ll even give u a hand…so u can see things IN CONTEXT…
http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents/_/year/2006/position/lf
I’ll wait…
OK. So here you are two full years into your run as NY Met GM. You were here from 1998-2002 and then ran a team in the same Division for three years before you came back so you knew the day you walked in the door that you had work to do. Even though the vault is wide open you might want to look beyond the top shelf. Type B doesn’t cost you anything down the road, non tenders (Jason Werth), but why leave it up to that off season every year. How about a rule 5 in 2005 instead of Franco? How about poking around someone else’s farm system and searching for a match? I guess some rudimentary work was done in that regard with the Padres. Heath Bell, Royce Ring/ Ben Johnson but that didn’t work. Victor Diaz didn’t need to be traded for Mike Nickeas. One hole for another.
Sometimes you simply cannot make up for a previous administration dealing away anyone of any value in the minors and busting on almost every single early round draft pick for the last 7 years.
The question that should have been asked was were we really as good as we thought? Atlanta suffered their first losing season in 15 years and didn’t see .500 after May 3rd, Philly didn’t get over .500 until Aug 20th, Florida Sept 17th Washington never came close. The NL West was won with 88 wins, the Central 83. How close were we really? One team in the entire league wins 90+ games and we think were a super team? Usually the NL produces 3 or 4 90+ win teams. You have to be practical, realistic. A first round pick for a 40 year old to play LF? C’mon. That reeks of “we’re just one player away.” But if your so convinced that we were one player away why would you sign Alou BEFORE SF had to decide to offer arb?
That’s a question you really have to answer for me because although I disagrred with the Alou move the moment I heard about, that is the part that I really don’t understand.
If your so sure this was the right move why wouldn’t you at least seek to retain the #1 pick?
I wasn’t critically analyzing the thought process at the time so if you want to call the 2007 off season a second guess on my part go right ahead but there were other places Omar could have looked besides only type A solutions and he did know the shape of the farm when he got here so he had to know handing over draft choices would hamper him for years to come.
Mcilvaine got Gilkey for next to nothing in 1996. That didn’t cost a #1 pick. Phills got Werth for 2007. That netted them great play and TWO picks. We spent 15M for 100 games and giftwrapped a pick and your defending this with the old stand by “well who else were we going to get to play LF?”
I would have kept Diaz and platooned him with Chavez and lived with it. With the age and the brittle nature of our rotation, no pitching depth age at 1B and RF, a remade pen, no depth in the minors I wouldn’t have “gone for it.”
Going for it every year almost always ensures that you never get it.
We weren’t even close to being one player away.
” you knew the day you walked in the door that you had work to do. ”
work to do = improve attendance immediately. think anything otherwise and you are being naive.
>>Type B doesn’t cost you anything down the road, >>non tenders (Jason Werth)
>>but why leave it up to that off season every year.
say hello to doug mientkavitz…remember him…mr. type b free-agent…
1 year contract…pretty low deal…
o yeah…u dont lose ur draft pick signing multiple type a free-agents when u have one of the worst records in the league…minor detail u left out…but def skews the risk involved…
no?
what draft pick did we give up in 2006 for signing Pedro ? none…boston got an extra comp pick in the supplemetntal round…same with houston…so remind me again why we should NOT sign type a’s in 2004?
>>>How about a rule 5 in 2005 instead of Franco?
wow…ur bringing up Julio Franco??? most people in 2006 pointed to his veteran leadership and decent pinch-hitting ability as a plus in 2006..he only had 50 PA in 2007 and was released…( so the mets can pick up marlon anderson again…who was one of willie’s favorites…and who flopped )
and overall i think his salary was a mil…
ur grasping at straws…
>>How about poking around someone else’s farm >>>system and searching for a match
say hello to duaner sanchez…say hello to xavier nady…say hello to john maine..
>>Heath Bell, Royce Ring/ Ben Johnson but that >>didn’t work.
heath bell was horrible for us..and was on the outs with rick peterson…
#tryagain
>>Victor Diaz didn’t need to be traded for Mike >>Nickeas. One hole for another.
victor diaz was fat and slow…and didnt have a great bat…after xavier nady became our starting RF…and Milledge went up in the system…Diaz was ranked too far down the depth chart to matter..
Diaz barely cracked a mlb roster after 2006…
and after coming within a cab ride and a curveball of a world series ticket…this is the guy u wanted to platoon in 2007 with endy chavez????
HOLY SHEET
But if your so convinced that we were one player away why would you sign Alou BEFORE SF had to decide to offer arb?
making the offer BEFORE SF decided to offer arb was a bad move…case closed..
u still never answered the question..
given the ability to actually have the benefit of hindsight…
and having the list of free-agents at ur disposal now…
who would have signed to play LF…
knowing how close the mets were to a ws..
knowing our fan base…and the fact that ur bosses are not going to want to pay for manny ramirez.
u cant even name one…( victor diaz and endy???)
no way does a team that won 98 games in 2006 and come that close to a ws…with no LF…no RF…concern itself with a draft pick..esp with a bunch of owners who dont want to pay overslot for talent ANYWAY…
i think i do a better job of bashing omar than u do…
lmao
“While we cannot say whether any of the forfeited picks would have netted us a starting player or two they certainly would have at the very least still been assets going forward. ”
Was Eddie Williams, Chris Donnels. Dave Proctor, Lee May, Allen Zinter, Al Shirley, Chris Roberts, Jon Ward, Kirk Presley, Ryan Joroncyk, Robert Stratten, Geoff Goetz all assets going forward?
Unless your in the top 10-15 in the picking your really not sure your going to get anything of worth! All the sure things are in the top 5-10 picks after that it’s all hope and a prayer.
Just look at the number of busted 1st rounders from every year.
And you will see that having a 1st round pick that is not at the top is not all that damaging!
No pick is a sure thing. 1-10 could get you Lincecum, Pelfrey or Humber. There are ways to narrow the gap though because some teams constantly pull good talent out of the draft.
2002 draft
1st round #16-25 Swisher, Hamels, Guthrie, Blanton, Cain
2nd round Votto, McCann, Lester
3rd round Granderson
4th round Josh Johnson
Oh yes. There are plenty of good players out there that would have helped us quite a bit from this one draft alone. Guys that would probably be among the most popular Mets of all time, likely with a ring on their finger.
How nice would it have been to replace Piazza with McCann? Nix Ollie because of Lester? Josh Johnson instead of Livan?
We took Kazmir at 15, then waited around until all the players I listed above were gone because we signed David Weathers and Roger Cedeno as type A free agents but we could have selected any of these guys. We could have selected FOUR of these guys. Not without the Wilpon offending their good Bud though. See Bud wants all the good players diverted away from the Mets. That’s why we’re the only team that adhears to his ridiculous and self serving slot guidelines.
But. At least we had Weathers and Cedeno for a year and a half each.
Yeah and we took Kazmir that year…
Your Point?
You came up with 5 names out of 10 slots.
Thats 50/50!
Look at the names that were 1-15!
How many guys were drafted in the entire 2002 draft that you came up with just 10 guys to mention?
Here is a link to the First round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Major_League_Baseball_Draft
Looks like we got as good as anyone else did as they all became all stars.
Her is the list
Grienke
Fielder
Saunders
Kazmir
Swisher
Hamels
Cain
Only hindsight could tell you that Hamels would best Kazmir!
Kazmir was almost immediatly a star until his Elbow gave out!
You can’t PREDICT that before the draft dude.
I can’t. Even Scouting Directors can’t but without a ticket there is no prize
And sometime even with a ticket there is no prize!
So whats more important the Ticket or finding the prize?
And by going FA there usually is no doubt about the prize your getting!
Not so true with your ticket system.
@ t agee: You make a great point about that draft alone.
@ Metsie: What would you rather have: A one in a 500 chance? Or no chance at all?
Yeah, the draft is for most part a crap-shoot. But I’d rather at least place a bet on a guy than give my opportunities away!
@ metsie (again):
“And by going FA there usually is no doubt about the prize your getting!”
Yeah, usually the prize is an old, overpaid guy who won’t help you very much but will bog you down because of his contract.
How can you say there is no doubt about the FA prize your getting Metsie? After all we have been through over two full DECADES.
Please, your just being argumentative.
The big money freaks we have brought in here bust at least as often as a #1 pick and even when they don’t their shelf life is half as long and you get nothing when they leave…..if you can even get rid of half of them at all.
Ace, the reason we had no picks is because we signed a FA who helped the second he got here not 4 years later!
You got a MLB player instead of a pick.
So the question should be do you want a 1 in 500 chance at a player or the sure thing successful MLB player?
“Yeah, usually the prize is an old, overpaid guy who won’t help you very much but will bog you down because of his contract.”
Beltran didn’t help?
Wagner wasn’t a help before he got hurt?
Santana is about the closest thing to what you described and at the time he was one of THE BEST pitchers in baseball!
Those are the guys who cost you 1st rounders…
Those are the only guys
Ok Tag name all the free agents we have signed over the last 10 years that have been complete busts…
Pedro? Not that first year
Beltran? Not until his knee went.
Delgado? Not until he broke down!
Wagner was doing just fine till he got hurt!
Perez and castillo is about it for failed signings. You want throw Bay in too!
We also re-signed Wright and Reyes over that span.
I’m not being argumentative just being fair to Omar.
You can’t PREDICT injury. Just ask Sandy in regards to Young!
You get the best player you can find for a position and hope he stays healthy.
The think that drafting them makes them any healthier well look at Mejia, Havens F-Mart and a whole slew of other kids.
Seems they get hurt just as easily if not MORE than the FA signings did when you total them up!
@ Metsie:
Okay, so that’s 2 guys that it was worth giving up compensation for. If you can only name 2, that should tell you something. Besides, I don’t think anyone is saying that you should never sign a Type-A, just that you shouldn’t rely on big FA acquisitions every year or just willy nilly sign a guy like Alou before his team even has the chance to not offer him arbitration.
And if we hadn’t been restricting ourselves to the slot suggestions in the draft and making poor choices overall, we may not need all these FA acquisitions that cost us picks.
It’s a viscous cycle. Treat the draft like a joke and you’re going to have to rely on FA’s. Rely on FA’s and you’re going to pay for it by giving away picks. Give away picks and you’ll need to rely on FA’s.
AGAIN – T-Agee
the ONLY FA signing that was mis-handled was Alou..and that was on the .0001 % that the giants dont offer arbitration…
now the fact that omar did not wait is a def head-scratcher..
the fact that the mets typically go the safe route and draft college guys in the first round within slot money means we typically DO NOT draft for TOP TALENT.
signing Wagner in the 2006 season = right move…u make that move 100 times over..
signing Pedro/Beltran in the 2004 season = ditto
signing Jason Bay in the 2009 off-season for a 4 year deal = ditto
no way on earth does ANYONE predict that Daniel Murphy would hit more HR in a season than Jason Bay…not even Jason Bay’s worst enemy…
and by the way…u NEVER answered the question…what would u have done in the 2006 off-season…
know why??
cuz aside from just waiting for alou to accept arb…it wasnt a bad deal…
now when he didnt get ANYTHING out of alou in 2008…he goes out and gets fernando tatis for cheap…what does fernando do? wins comeback player of the year award…
in 2009/2010 resigns for peanuts…
and fans develop convenient amnesia…pomes calls tatis omar’s 2nd cousin …quevivalosmets…blah blah blah
fact is…Sandy inherits a much more talented team AND financial flexibility after year one…
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tfJWfaPG4VXbDyBscIZf1MQ&output=html
Ace those were the only two guys who cost us picks.
In 2006 the signing of Wagner cost us a first rounder an 18th pick! There were ONLY two All stars in that first round. Longoria and Lincecum the 3rd and 10th picks respectively.
Wagner wasn’t a better pick than Drabek who the Phillies took?
Only two of the top 44 players taken in that draft would become All Stars!
SO Omar got a GOOD IMMEDIATE closer and gave up on a VERY WEAK 1st round draft class!
In 2009 K-Rod cost us a first rounder. the 10th Overall selection. SInce it is a bit too soon to judge the strength of this class so soon after beuing drafted only time will tell if this was a weak or strong draft to bow out of.
Strausburg is the most notable name on the list to date and he is currently recovering from Thommy John Surgery.
Isn’t a pretty reliable albeit DRAMATIC Closer worth whatever we might have gotten in the 10th spot?
Tagee’s whole argument is based off the missed opportunity to collect two picks for letting Wagner walk. He doesn’t know he would actually GET those picks unless Wagner because a TypeA FA but he counts those chickens before the eggs were even laid!
It is all about the timing.
Once you have a decent set of prospects that you feel might be ready to fill out a large portion of your roster stockpiling 1st rounders is not as important as filling in the gaps you don’t have a developed player for.
So you can put a winning team out there for two or three years WHILE you then go and draft or trade to get other pieces that you won’t need to buy later.
SO what really did we give away in the 2006 and 2009 draft that was worth what Wagner and K-Rod got us?
Not much!
What Tagee wanted to do with Wagner could easily be done with Reyes this year as he is a PRIME candidate to let a player walk and collect picks.
Would you trade Reyes for two tickets to maybe?
I sure wouldn’t!
But I would do that before I traded him to some team for players they can’t use and want to give away!
MLB makes a very good point…
Sandy really has so much wiggle room next year to do what he wants and go in any direction he wants.
The MESS that some say we are in was supposed to be OMAR’s Mess and it only really relates to 2011. The year all of his major FA signings was due to expire.
The fact that Perez and Castillo did not pan out is one thing. But the other signings (and like I said I will even throw Bay in there as a Bad one) were all pretty good deals!
Beltran K-Rod Wagner Delgado all helped to make this team the competitive team it was in 2006-2008.
The Injuries hit then.
Pedro started, then Delgado, Castillo was next Wagner after him and then Beltran.
Bay soon followed! Maybe he changes our opinion of him this year, maybe not.
Perez was about the only BONEHEAD signing he made. castillo even gave you one good year when he stayed healthy, Wagner two, K-Rod two, Beltran 3.5!
Thats a pretty good track record on FA signings if you ask me and now that all those contracts are off the books at the end of this year and we see all the kids who are winning games for us while Wright and Davis and Pagan are hurt you have to say Sandy really is not going to have any problems and a ton of flexibility to work with.
Omar would have dealt with this year if he was still here and it was always PLANNED to be a transition year for the franchise.
Thats why the signings of Reyes and Beltran Castillo and Perez were all set to expire this year.
Holt and Harvey are almost ready for their 2012 debut. Reyes can be resigned, Castillo is already gone and Beltran is currently the best hitter on the team who isn’t hurt or named Jose!
He is STILL carrying us as he always did when he could get on the field.
Some here want to look at the glass as half full. But only because they look at 2011 and say there wasn’t any wiggle room. No there wasn’t it was planned for 2012 even if Omar was still here that was the day all the purchases were gone and he could promote that core that has ALREADY been promoted a year early and go get one or two FAs to complement and fill in for what we lost!
You are idiot and if you dont believe there is a reesentment for any fans that openly admit they dislike Alderson. If you need evidence for that it just tells me you are a hard up shill for Alderson and are blinded to it.
I mean here you are attacking a good piece on how we should all respect each others opinions?
YOU ARE THE EVIDENCE T AGEE!!!!
Alderson was a terrible choice to lead the Mets. The day Bud Selig through Alderson’s hat into the ring I dreaded his coming. I never liked his style in Oakland and lost all respect for turning a blind eye to all the steroids being done right under his nose. Half of his team was doped up and he knew it. He lied about it for years and years and only when he was pressed by the new ork media did he finally confess and apologize nearly 20 years too late.
“You are idiot and if you dont believe there is a reesentment for any fans that openly admit they dislike Alderson. If you need evidence for that it just tells me you are a hard up shill for Alderson and are blinded to it.”
Way to start off a whine about how we should respect each others opinions.
“I mean here you are attacking a good piece on how we should all respect each others opinions?”
No, its not. Its a fact devoid cry for pity. He couldn’t even do it without taking shots at his usual targets.
“YOU ARE THE EVIDENCE T AGEE!!!!”
Because he brings fact based opinions?
“Alderson was a terrible choice to lead the Mets. The day Bud Selig through Alderson’s hat into the ring I dreaded his coming. I never liked his style in Oakland and lost all respect for turning a blind eye to all the steroids being done right under his nose. Half of his team was doped up and he knew it. He lied about it for years and years and only when he was pressed by the new ork media did he finally confess and apologize nearly 20 years too late.”
Blah blah fake moral outrage, empty rhetoric, unproven accusations (half of them? really?) and revising history.
Why exactly should I have any respect for your opinions if this is how you choose to present them?
Yeah, really. I’d say about 80% of the late 90′s/early 2000′s Yankees were juiced up. Why do they seem to get by? Why isn’t Brian Cashman blasted like this guy blasts Alderson? Because they won a WS? That’s what logical people call a big, fat DOUBLE STANDARD.
LOL “good piece”.
“I never liked his style in Oakland”
You don’t like winning 4 division titles, 3 pennants and 1 World Series?
He obviously doesn’t like the big bad nerdy statistics! Sabermetrics is scary! I don’t understand it, so I attack it instead.
That Alderson! What a geek, using his numbers and his charts! How dare he try to get a competitive advantage and actually win multiple division titles and a World Series with it!
The funny thing about people who deride saber stats is that they too are stats people. They love BS stats like RBI, Batting Average, Wins/Losses. These numbers aren’t nerdy for what reason? They’re still numbers. Hey nerds…wake up. You’re nerds too, except you use numbers that tell you nothing.
I agree with you on the point that disagreements among Mets fans should be tolerated and one shouldn’t be ostracized because one doesn’t toe the party line. OTOH, I disagree with you about Beltran who I like. I’ve never seen any reason to think that this is a selfish player.
I also think that Alderson was and is a good choice for GM. MONEYBALL means looking to find places in the market where you can get good value for less than outrageous money. This is always a good idea but even more so given how strapped the team is for funds.
The future seems dim for this team given its financial crisis but there’s no one I would rather have at the helm during these dark days than Sandy Alderson. Just MHO.
If you don’t understand the correlation between the consistent negative Twitter comments of yours and this irrational behavior you accuse some Met fans of displaying, then you’re not as smart as you think you are.
I’d like to see a poll to distinguish how many Met fans appreciate Beltran vs ‘fans who like myself dislike Carlos Beltran’. Don’t believe there are as many as you seem to think there are.
In fact you probably were the lone, single Met fan that could take a 3 HR game by Beltran and spin it into a negative about his performance that day.
Name calling drivel? Yeah, I’ll agree it should have no place in any baseball debates by fans, especially fans of the same team. However, your over the top negativity concerning one of the best Met players ever to wear the uniform and/or the FO who just got started often brings out the same type irrational behavior.
If you can’t handle the heat, I’d suggest staying out of the kitchen.
SRT, are you on Twitter? You sound like someone I should be following
(@Coopz22)
No, I never did create an account although I routinely follow twitter rolls on a few website.
Sometimes I see a comment on twitter that makes me want to shoot off a response. That’s probably a good reason for me NOT to have an account.
Ha! Just read your twitter profile. Big time Met fan and Jersey girl here as well.
Yeah, I’ve made lots of enemies because I’m pretty outspoken (I talk like a truck driver too, but then again, I think the Jerseyness explains it away ha ha).
Greg Pomes is the only man that would criticize Carlos Beltran for not hustling around the bases during those 3 home-runs..
Is Greg Pomes just a poor man’s Adam Rubin?
Oh, crying and calling for fairness on the internet. Ya, this won’t backfire. Are you familiar with the Streisand Effect? Because you will be.
“Since the hiring of Sandy Alderson there seems to be a an overwhelming sentiment among the fanbase that if you don’t 100% support everything Alderson and his front office do then you’re not a real fan of the New York Mets.”
And what poll did you take? People who call you out on your lame jokes and mangling of the truth? That has less to do with the new FO and than how you present yourself.
“Gone are the days when having a different opinion was acceptable.”
It isn’t your opinion that’s the problem. It’s how you express it.
“Today, Mets fans who disagree with the front office are labeled haters and trolls. They are singled out and attacked on sites like this one or social mediums like Twitter.”
Ya, it really is lame when people say disparaging things about you over the internet. #beltranissoft #firesandyalderson
“I know there are Mets fans who like me don’t believe that Sandy Alderson was the right choice to be general manager.”
And some of them can voice their opinion with honesty and respect. You’re not one of them.
“Some of us feel his moneyball ways are simply wrong and not cut out for a large market team like the Mets.”
See you can’t even voice a single thought about the subject without throwing out a buzzword.
“The over-reliance on sabermetrics seems foolish and short-sighted to me.”
Over reliance? Short sighted? You don’t even know what you’re mad about. You just know you are mad and need to blame someone.
“The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team.”
“The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team.”
And it got along for about 100 years without letting black guys play. And with a mound that was 6 inches higher. And with fielders not using gloves. etc etc. Humanity got along just fine without the internet or air travel or vaccines.
And yet, I think we can all agree that things improved when those changes came about. You shouldn’t be interested in “getting along fine”. You should be interested in excelling.
“I know I’m not the only one who feels that way, in fact most ballplayers – former and current – scoff at it.”
Holy crap, 3 logical fallacies in one sentence. That’s impressive.
1) You have never actually polled what most ball players think
2) It doesn’t really matter what they think because facts are not an issue up for a vote
3) Appeal to false authority
“We don’t have to agree on everything and anything. However there’s a civil way to do it without resorting to name calling or worse.”
Yes, vulgarities and threats are uncalled for and you shouldn’t have to put up with that.
But don’t act like you are totally innocent. You post things that are either very ill conceived and ill informed or you are purposely trying to bait people into reacting negatively.
You’re not arguing in good faith. Don’t cry now because you’ve made yourself a punchline and target for abuse.
Josh Thole was told he should die and had people making horrible comments about him and his family on Twitter because he didn’t hit a baseball up to certain morons’ standards. Not the same case as you.
Beautifully written. Bravo.
This is just excellent. I may cry…that’s how beautiful it is.
Bravo, Sir, Bravo
Now that is what I call REFRESHING. Not rehashing the SOS just to try to sway peoples opinion against the new administration in order to go back to the same old proven to fail monkeyball philosophies.
One of the topics that annoys me, especially in the super transparent world of social media forums like Twitter and blogging is that this whole self-serving definition of who is a “real” fan comes out. As an example, I once had a migraine, and was complaining about it during a game. To which some people said that they hoped I felt better. There was a game going on but it was taking FOREVER and I mentioned to some of the fans at the game, “Wow you made it a lot further than I would have!” Which was meant to be funny. But then some smart aleck comes out and tells me I’m not a real fan. Yeah ok. I’ve been following the team since I was 7. I have season tickets. I follow them around the country. I write, critique and argue about the team on an almost daily basis, even in the offseason. I am one of the founding parents of a popular Mets-focused podcast. I own several pieces of Mets memorabilia. Sure. I’m not a “real” fan because I wouldn’t have wanted to stay at a game because I had a migraine. *rolleyes*
But that leads me to your discussion. Greg, I want to just say up front that I actually almost admire you for sticking true to your beliefs and standing firm – I happen to find you very entertaining. At the same time, you’ve made yourself almost into a punchline from people who follow the team. I’m not into blaming the victim. But you and people like you bring this on yourselves with your constant negativity and bashing of some of the best players to have ever donned a Mets uniform (Beltran as an example). Then the whole #firesandyalderson and #fireterrycollins tweets. I mean, come on Greg. That’s a little over the top, even for me and I kind of defined that term when I started blogging in 2007. Because Alderson inherited a mess? Because the Wilpons have allowed successions of GMs to run the franchise into the ground because they thought they were “good guys” but the only thing they were good at was spending money? The Mets have consistently had one of the highest payrolls in MLB and you bash them for not spending enough, as if THAT was the problem. See, even the Yankees (your “gold standard”) spend tons of money, and their star basher A-Rod may be DL’d soon with hip issues and their Core Four are falling apart in front of our eyes. And they have NOTHING to back them up with THE highest payroll in MLB.
My point is, Sandy Alderson hasn’t done much except try to fill in holes with high-risk high-reward guys, which is something I agree with because there is absolutely NO reason to spend over the luxury cap that’s just ridick. I love this vocal minority who are like the Tea Party with “moneyball sandy.” What exactly has he done that says “Moneyball?” He’s not small market — he’s inherited a mess on one of the biggest markets out there. Because he didn’t want to go hog wild and offer Jayson Werth $900 million because Alderson wanted to make Mets fans happy? Color me happy that the last person he wants to make happy is YOU. He wants to do what’s best for the team LONG TERM. What a novel concept. Sorry you can’t “get” that.
Has he traded Jose Reyes yet? No…but if he walks as a FA, say, I doubt “you know, his OBP was just not high enough for me to warrant signing him” will be the excuse. But people like you and this lunatic fringe, especially on MMO who are scared of new thought processes, are making it as if Sandy Alderson is making these moves ALREADY. he’s not, and you and people like you should maybe enjoy what’s going to unfold over the next few months because you might miss out on having lots of fun this season.
Lastly, I know that you are a fan, you are concerned. But as SRT says above, you bring on the negativity yourself, and negativity begats negativity. If you predict doom-and-gloom all the time, 50% of the time you’ll be right.
Great Post. All the Gm’s we have had since Frank Cashen left have come from our system, one way or another. McElvine, Harazin, Phillips, Minaya came from our system, so you can call them big market GM’s. Their records speak for themselves in what our records were.
We now have someone from the outside who has a fresh look at the team. You have to give him time to see what we have and what we need. Even Cashen went and hired Bamberger before hiring the right manager in Davey Johnson.
It could be two years or three before we see his footprint.
Mcilvaine was hired at the tail end of 1993 (the worst team money could buy part 1) and had to clean up the mess by getting rid of guys as well as building a competative team. He got us from 69 wins to 88 without spending a single draft choice. In fact he added three extra one’s (Reynosa, Sid Fernandez)
He didn’t trade away assets from the farm like Alfonzo, Dotel, Ordonez, Bobby Jones, Preston Wilson, Isringhausen to get better but he did add players who did play well here (or would have if not traded away) Guys like Lance Johnson, Gilkey, Rick Reed, Olerud, Carl Everett, AJ Burnett, Jay Payton.
He was a Scouting Director responsible for drafting Dykstra, Gooden, McDowell, Magadan, Aguilera, Schiraldi and West. He also drafted for us Clemans, Rafeal Palmeiro, John Wettland, John Olerud and Matt Williams guys we didn’t sign.
He hired John Barr as HIS scouting director who is currently the SF Giants scouting Director who drafted guys like Posey, Gillespie, Zach Wheeler and Brandon Belt. In two years as the scouting director for the Orioles he drafted Ben McDonald, Mike Mussina, and Greg Zaun. He was also instrumental in the Dodgers drafting Broxton, Proctor and Russell Martin.
This is the type of talent that guys like Mcilvaine and Barr were poised to bring here before they were short circuted by the impatient Wilpon and our wins went from 88, 97, 94, 82, 75, 66 as all the talent was sucked out of the system and none was put back. Right back to the worst team money could buy part 2.
Sure ’99 and 2000 had some memorable moments but they came from subtracting from the future to get there and the crash resulted from not putting anything back.
I don’t think you can blame Mcilvaine. He had us on the right track but his work was undone by recklessly rushing the whole rebuild and six years after Phillips took over we were right back where we were when Mcilvaine took over.
We had the right guy, we just didn’t let him complete the job.
No I don’t blame McIlvaine at all. I agree with your assestment of his time here. He should have stayed, but Phillips was in Wilpons ear at the time. Phillips was trading all our prospects for aging stars.
that culture of backstabbing is what eventually brought omar down..
tony b was the steve phillips to omar’s joe macallvaine
Realisticly, Alderson was NOT a good choice for a Big Market, financially successful team; however, we AREN’T that any longer nor are we likely to be that prior to his term expires. IMO, that makes him a good choice; but I don’t believe in pigeonholing anyone based upon thir past decisions. I would certainly hope that if Alderson was astute enough to create MONEYBALL out of his needs/restrictions in Oakland, he’s certainly adstute enough to create a viable formulation to work for OUR needs & OUR restrictions! I too believe in Reyes & Wright as the Heart & Soul of the 21st Century Mets designating Wright as the Heart, Reyes as the Soul. Add in Davis as The Muscle.With Alderson as The Brain & we may be able to scream, IT’S ALIVE! come 2013.
As we’re talking Mets’ fanage; perhaps someone can respond explaining how anyone who projects negativity onto the team’s outlook on a game by game basis like a Beningo for example, u know, what I call “THE WOE IS ME, HERE WE GO AGAIN!” crowd. How is it they’re fans? Yeah, I know, there are valid optimists & pessimists in the world; yet as an optimist, I can’t help ; but wonder where they find their joy in being a fan. Perhaps someonce can tell me. No team was ever created perfect. No team was ever blessed with AllStars @ EVERY POSITION INCLUDING THE BENCH & MIDRELIEF PEN. Most chasmpionship caliber teams are created out of approx. 20% stars, 80% grinders. By virtue of the definition of humanity, u are going to see failure at times. NOT ALL FAILURE is caused by not trying your very best. sometimes overtrying causses failures.
While, I certainly can tolerate dissenting fan views; I refuse to tolerate the concept that an actual fan believes they are doing anything positive in booing one of their own. In what realm of reality is that course of response supposed to bolster the outcome? I have often disliked, disdained one of ours Credeno,Bonilla, Perez(sfter refusing demotion), Benitez(in the postseason any postseason), ALL come to mind; however, I certainly don’t feel the need to futher hinder the potential for their success by adding additional pressure for adding pressure’s sake. You want to send a message to mngt,ownership? start a letter writing campaign, boycott their products, just don’t ravage our own, don’y turn cannibal. Certainly potential trade partners hear u & as they do, their offer shrinks because they know how motivated NYM must be to unload the disappointment.
I’m sorry, perhaps I’m just not smart enough to see the other side on this; however, I can’t understand what positive anyone expects. I just can’t help; but recall the paniced look in Castillo’s faCE AS HE SAW TROUBLE WITH A-ROD’S FATEFUL POPUP AS I ENVISION HIM THINKING HOW BADLY HIS LIFE WAS ABOUT TO TURN. Is that what a fan relishes seeing or being a part of? I can’t comprehend it, someone please enlighten my confused, tired brain.
Immaturity is what it is ’62. I WANT TO WIN NOW! Who we gonna get to play LF this year? Floyd? Good. Alou? Good. Bay? Good. Everything’s good as long as we’re taking away from future teams to address today’s defficincies caused by yesterdays failure to plan ahead.
The only thing that doesn’t work out so good is the way all these imports play. Sure there is plenty to talk about. Where their gonna hit, if they can do what they did last year blah blah blah but at the end of the season it’s always the same old thing. If they play well, they can’t stay on the field. If they play poorly, we can’t get rid of them. Floyd, Alou and Bay all play the easiest defensive position so all you have to do is develop a HITTER in the minors and teach him how to play the EASIEST POSITION. How in hell is it even remotely possible to not have developed our own All-Star LFer since we signed Cleon Jones in 1963? I guess to be fair you would have to say Mitchell but he was traded early, had a short career (did win an MVP though) and did his best work for SF. Alright. TWO LFers in fifty effin years. That is piss poor and it is this constant importation of guys that leads people to not consider them Mets. There is no such thing as a Met. Just a whole flock of well heeled older guys who had already made a name for themselves somewhere else.
Shea and Citi have been like a country club for early retirees for a long time. Over 20 years now. These retirees no longer have a desire to get their hands (or uniform) dirty. They want to beef up their 401K with as much lettuce as possible and slide through their 3-5 years here with as little grief as possible.
When Omar signed Castillo, Phillips traded for Alomar and Vaughn were they thinking of the here and now Castillo, Alomar and Vaughn? No way. They were thinking Luis circa 1997 with the Marlins, Mo with Boston, Alomar with Toronto.
When the big money import comes in here and stinks up the joint he’s gonna hear it. No different than the way most people have a greater tolerance for family that messes up than total strangers.
We’re constantly having these total strangers come over, make them self comfortable and then spill the gravy all over the dinner table.
As we have had more and more of these total strangers mess up our dinner we have gotten more and more frustrated with their clumsiness and now there isn’t even a pretense of hospitality left in our hearts. Even the gracious, polite, well mannered Carlos Beltran gets it because of all the dissapointment of previous and current boneheads.
I can only think of one of our own who was ever given a rough going over. Doug Sisk. And although I have never booed a Met I can understand completely the agonizing ball after ball after ball game after game after game.
Anyone else given the business has always been someone brought in here at a hefty sum who disapointed. Came here with big expectations, sold a lot of tickets and then disapointed just like all the rest. You keep doing that to your fanbase and it gets old. The mere fact there are people that still care enough to be so ******* angry about the way we go about our business should be heartning to the Wilpon because after 22 years of incompetence and buffoonery they still have people who care but are disgusted and damn close to fed up.
If this team hadn’t lost an entire generation of baseball fans in NY by being the most incompetent organization in baseball there would be no attendance problems.
One thing that illustrates the sheer unimaginable incompetence of the Wilpon is this. Somewhere around 1996 or so the Wilpon decided he wanted black incorporated into the NY Met color scheme because they felt that the NYY were selling alot more hats because the darker blue was more fashionable. What a complete bunch of ignoramuses. (ignorami?)
These morons were thinking that people were buying NYY hats because of the color of them. It couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that they went out and built a World Series Champion that just so happened to have THIRTEEN very likable (for Yankees) homegrown players on it. Guys who were going to be there for a decade or two, not a year or two. Guys who were going to compete DEEP into October every year. Guys like Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Leyritz, Mendoza, Pettite, Gerald Williams, Roberto Kelly, Ruben Rivera, Pat Kelly, Andy Fox. LOTS of YOUNG TALENT to which they added guys who felt the need to FIT IN WITH THEM.
They didn’t surround two young talented players with a bunch of jaded veterans on their last contract.
The Mets always drew well at Shea. The attendance drops not so much because of the record. it’s more the disapointment in the front office decision making and the pure hatred of seeing us have to import all these disapointing dinosaures in here one right after the other cause every GM since Mcilvaine has played the box office game.
The box office philosophy is the same imbecilic thought process that believed that the NYY sold a lot more merchandise because of the color, not the product.
T, the following sentence from u is probably one of the more illogical thioughts I’ve encounters in MMO ever, “all you have to do is develop a HITTER in the minors and teach him how to play the EASIEST POSITION”
How’d that work out for Murphy? ask Santana if you’re that confused.
Using your metaphoric example of strangers vis a vis family, I guess, my belief system would be akin to seeing any vet incorporated onto my team, as a new addition, transgormed from “stranger” to “family” sorta like an “in-law” once he dons muy colors he’s no longer a stranger to be villified(with the caviat that he gives his BEST effort. For example, despite his grossly disappointing results to date I’d be loathed to boo Jason Bay sinmly because he IS family from the moment he chose #44 for his back & it’s very apparent his disappointment in his results far outweigh mine & vlearly he’s working his tail off to improve. For me, that’s enough. Certainly we ALL want our team to win as I assume so does the 29 other team’s fans; but unfortunately THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! I refuse to let disappointment turn me cannibalistic.
T, perhaps u see value in unsignable draft selections where I don’t. Unsignable first round selections surrendered to gamble on a MLB need is akin to the diabetic “sacrificing” his snickers bar.
Wrong ’62. This statement is the most illogoical. “How’d that work out for Murphy?” Murphy was never taught how to play LF in the minors. Murphy had a grand total of FOUR games in the OF. Frankly ’62, I expect a little better from you than that.
Go ahead accept that every other team in MLB can mine the draft for talent while we must hold the line for the integrity of the game (and our bottom line) If you’ve been watching this team over the last 25 years you would hav noticed a tremendous amount of FA signings that we have come to regret due primarilly to the fact that we simply do not have enough Major League talent coming up from the minors. Your cool with that. I’m not. I go behind the curtain I’m voting to abolish this franchise crippling manuever. I understand that your in favor of the status quo. That’s OK. Maybe we can continue to get alot of our talent when the Marlins have financial issues. Maybe some other team can come to our rescue. Like I said before Bud is regarded much more highly than the Fan. Maybe Bud can buy a thousand tickets, hotdogs and sodas every game to at least make it up to Fred.
T, 4, 40 or 400 games in LF according to u it’s the easiest position to play, my point was refuting your statement as Murphy obviously finds infield positions easier. BTW exactly what have I ever opined that’s led u to believe I’m satisified with the status quo? Was it my being one of the very first to HIGHLIGHT the issue over slotting on the boards? was it my endless Wilpon attacks? primaruily Jeff?
As I see it, I hate taxes; but because I pay them I don’t obseess over them ala Koosman,Snipes should not be inter[reted as my being supportive of them. Merely because I seek to find a reason behind ratrional peiole doing irrational acts beyond “theyre just nuts, incompetant,stupid” should not be construed as supporting a stayus quo. If your assumptions were trulty viablr as [possibilities signing so& so instead with that picj we surrendered for Alou,Wagner,etc. I’d be right behind u instead of in front of u. little in life is as black & white or as cut & dry as u portend it to be. The Machiavelian nature of the heirarchy setup by Jeff should be proof enough to look for the grey & the moisture as I prefer to do. Surely Kunz was a bad selection; but if the only other options were a lesser talent signed or a better talent unsigned is he still that horrible a choice? I’m just trying to add perspective to decisions made not support for them! try it sometime. u may just learn something. perhaps it’s a tendancy I developed vrom some of the mngt training I’ve received whereby I’ve been setup ion role playing scenerios that depict employees suddenly exceeding absentee limitations & tardiness beyond past experiences to ONLY be put into a final interview position with te employee to find his wife is dying & he’s had related reasonings I was left unaware of. No LIFE ISN’T BLACK & WHITE! Paul Harvey made a living out of his “REST OF THE STORY” routines. U should seek them out & listen to them intently! As my earthy grandfatyher used to implore, “use what God gave u for something other than a hatrack!” Capeesh?
’62, that would be fine if I were simply trying to understand our failures. At some point however simply understanding them is not enough. We can seek to understand all day long but at some point we have to say that’s the way things are and they will never change unless we stop doing or start doing X,Y, and Z. Otherwise NOTHING CHANGES.
I understand. The Wilpon’s have made a choice to put Bud Selig above their customers. Almost every other team in MLB has chosen to to put their customers above Bud Selig.
I am past the point where I need to seek understanding for this situation. I accept it. What I want to know is this. Is it ever going to change? Are the Wilpon’s customers ever going to take precedence over Bud Selig? If not I’m out of here. I’m fed up with being handed leftovers and told their grade A as if I’m some kind of an idiot that doesn’t know the difference.
The only way to build a Championship contender, year in and year out is to have lots of TALENT in its PRIME and all at the same time. FA doesn’t afford you that time because their shelf life is short, if they play well at all and their aren’t 10 top shelf talents available in free agency every year and even if there were we couldn’t afford them all anyway.
Murphy, Thole, Parnell, Gee, Duda, Turner, Tejada, Fern, Pelfrey, Niese are all decent enough complimentary parts that a strong arguement can be made for each, individually, but collectively leave us well behind the talent curve of any true Championship contender.
Each, especially Niese and Gee can be a solid part of a title team and Tejada and Fern could break out too but other teams have WAY more young talent on their 25 and WAY WAY more on the way so if this idiotic slot guideline initative were to be redacted tomorrow it would STILL take five years before it began to draw us even and another five to become even with everyone else. By that time they’ll all have moved to the front of whatever new curve there is while we’ll be jumping on end of the last one. (see signing guys anywhere from 32-50 just as the steroid era was ending)
So it’s not just a matter for today, it’s a matter of changing today so we can fully prosper ten years from now.
Look at the 2002 draft (9 years ago next month) Greinke, Fielder, Kazmir, Swisher, Hamels, Guthrie, Blanton, Cain, Votto, Broxton, Lester, McCann, Granderson, Josh Johnson.
All the teams drafting these guys received good play except us. Basically from this draft we got Victor Zambranno in the first round, David Weathers in the 2nd and Roger Cedeno in the 3rd. Weathers and Cedeno were then traded for salary relief so we got less than ZERO. Everyone else has gotten great play and is now poised to keep them and get more great play or pick up two high draft choices. Some have gotten great play and already exchanged those players for something for later ie Granderson for Austin Jackson. We paid many millions, got nothing and sold for 25 cents on the dollar.
If this crap stopped tomorrow it will STILL take a decade to fully right the ship.
I am completely beyond the point of seeking to understand this brain damaged philosophy. I want it to change NOW so I’m not at an age where I won’t remember the World Series when we finally get there.
I understand completely already. Bud Selig and not winning baseball games are more important to the Wilpon’s then their own customers and winning baseball games.
The key to success is not dwelling on the failures but repeating the successes!
Sure you try to learn from those mistakes but you don’t go over them OVER and OVER and OVER them again which is a waste of time, time that could be spent in looking at what you did well and do more of it!
Sorry but that works in Baseball and anything else you might be trying to do in your life!
Examining what has gone right or wrong is merely the first step. Identifying a more fruitful path is the 2nd and IMPLEMENTING that more successful path is the most important step.
We still have in our dwindling fan base plenty of monkeyball devotees still clamoring to fork over first and second round draft choices, rush any prospect who looks capable of doing anything at all, pay people double to come here and continue to throw good money after bad.
To date, the thing that has been the most successful for us was simply taking advantage of a Division rival’s poor finances. That was more dependent on what someone else did or couldn’t do than anything we did.
With a new stadium on the horizon that situation may not even present it’s self again with the Marlins. Other teams have been going over slot for years and have developed a pipeline of affordable talent which should provide payroll flexability for them so they don’t have to keep shipping their best players out.
Many of the most successful teams have a stockpile from which to pick in their minor league systems right now.
Even most of our AAA depth was DFA’d by Baltimore or couldn’t be protected on their 40 because of having better talent. Dusty Ryan, Luis Hernandez, Justin Turner and Pedro Beato all were lesser options for the Orioles and all were passed over by every AL team before we even got a shot at them. Same with Pridie.
Now I’m not saying this is a bad method of procuring talent, it’s not. Omar and Sandy made the right moves here but it still illustrates a severe talent chasm that exists between us and even the worst AL teams.
If even the worst AL Teams pass on guys we scoop up what does that say about the job we have done over all?
I think it says we have to change our philosophy and until next month when Alderson/Depodesta/McDonald make their picks we won’t know if any changes have actually been implemented or for how long they may be even if we do show signs of finally waking up.
“We still have in our dwindling fan base plenty of monkeyball devotees still clamoring to fork over first and second round draft choices, rush any prospect who looks capable of doing anything at all, pay people double to come here and continue to throw good money after bad.”
Yes because most of them would rather be the Yankees, Winners of 5 out 7 WS appearances using that method instead of the Oakland A’s who won their division and that was about it!
I don’t agree the yankee way works for anyone unless you start off the way they did which was to suck for a few years while they picked up the pieces from Steinbrenners dismantling of the farm and spend a bit on FA Talent while you do that to hold you short term.
Which if you ask me seemed to be what Omar was doing!
If not for the injuries that started, it WAS working!
Look at all the farm that is up here and winning games for us. Again due to injury! Took time to get that didn’t it Especially without the benefit of some first rounders (Mind you late first rounders since we were competitive those first three years)
The Yankees had 4 or 5 guys. Petitte (ACEP) Jeter (SS) Rivera (CLOSER), Posada (C), Williams (OF)
We currently have Wright, Reyes, Davis, Murphy or Turner with Havens on the way. You could throw Thole and Gee in there but I personally would wait Gee certainly is not an Ace But prob a damn good #3!)
Who else is in the wings? ALL the Pitching!
Harvey, Holt, Mejia, Maybe even Parnell who could be a closer if he pulls himself together…
If we resign Reyes then the only loss would be Beltran. Maybe F-Mart saves us a few Mil. If not what would be so bad about going after another big bat to play there and keep us in the game?
We would have Wright Reyes Davis Pride/Pagan Turner/Murphy Harvey Holt Pelfrey Niese and Gee as our Core Rotation. Thats 10 HOMEGROWN CORE guys! Twice what the Yankees had!
Plus whoever you get to replace Beltran’s bat!
So we are well within striking distance of having that core complete, It just hinges on what that young pitching does. All we need is one to be Ace and we are right where the Yankees were when they started calling the WS their home!
NYY had 13 home grown players when they made their first move and Angel is no Bernie, Thole is no Posada, Parnell is no Rivera, and Pelfrey is no Pettite so we’re pretty far from where they were to start off with.
It’s not the number of homegrown players, it’s the ability of them.
But getting a bat would be a great idea. Preferably a neutral platoon split bat for RF, but please, not at the expense of a #1 or #2 draft pick. We need to turn those picks into viable in house solutions for 2015-2021.
posada played in a bandbox…and took about 5-6 years til he played a full-season, josh is already a full-time starter in year 2…and has had to catch a less than stellar rotation……along with the fact that he didnt have to call a game for a long time…mike mussina/jimmy key/david cone and the other yankee mercenaries were not taking orders from ALF…
Put Josh Thole in Yankee Stadium and he hits over .300 and has 20 HR a year…WITH better defense..
That MLB is just an extrodinarally optimistic view of Josh Thole. Really 20 HR’s in Yankee Stadium? This year? With better defense? Have you been watching Josh?
Josh isn’t even an average catcher right now. He wouldn’t even be up here if he was on anyone else’s team.
He didn’t even play a lot of catcher in the minors. He failed to hit enough as a 1B and was moved back to catcher. He was brought up here and limited to the soft tossers like Figgy and Misch and pinch hit for before Frankie came in for the following reasons. Schneider, Santos, Cancel and Casanova. Like everyone else in our minor league system as soon as he showed even the slightest glimmer of being able to do something he was fast tracked and rushed up here because we never have anyone in the system that is ready.
I like Josh. I think in time he’ll be a credible half of a catching tandem and we could do (and have done) a lot worse but many teams have a guy like Thole. Some have them on the 40, others not yet, but very very few have them on the 25 and only one team in MLB has him as their starter.
first off thole does hit for contact..however i have noticed that anything inside/over the plate he pulls…
Johnny Damon damn near hit 30 HR in Yankee Stadium..went to Tiger Stadium the next year and hit 12…
Thole is only 23/24 years old…I think his hitting skills, patience, situational hitting have higher ceilings than a platoon player…
put posada on these scrubby met teams…bat him 8th in front of the pitcher..put him in Citifield…lets see if he hits 20 HR in any season…
“Angel is no Bernie, Thole is no Posada, Parnell is no Rivera,”
No Ike is Bernie, Reyes is Jeter, Pagan is Posada and then you have Wright!
Name the 13 guys that were core please I am sure I can equate them all to current players we have or will in a year…
OK. Who’s Pettite and who’s Rivera? And Pagan with one and a half good years is Posada?
And the fact that the NYY core all came up around the same time and this “core” has come up between 2003 and 2010.
But really, if your going to compare Posada to Pagan there is no sense in “comparing” the core cause that’s really no comparison at all.
The NYY core 5 are all going to merit conversation about the HOF with two of them flat out locks. The other three a full notch or two below, but still meriting conversation.
Ike’s in his second year, Reyes and Wright could merit some conversation like Bernie and Posada so that could be even but who’s Pettite’s comp? Niese? Not impossible but again, we’re talking eight years from Reyes to Davis when the whole idea is to A) have the best talent, in it’s prime and B) have it all at the same time.
Reyes and Davis could be together for two years. That’s it.
But again, where are the two HOF comp’s? Where are the two guys in our core going to the HOF?
harvey and Holt could be two possible pettites.
And if both work out to be good they could be enough to make up for Pettite and Rivera combined!
We also have Beato who may one day be a good closer. And don’t count out Mejia at some point as well!
Next year we will see won’t we?
I’m not trying to run Thole down but right now, 2011, he’s just not a Major League starting catcher. He’s here because we have no one else. I do think he can be a good part of a platoon as his ceiling. A Ceiling of a Mike Stanley with half the HR’s.
Who says he is just saying that he could be. The only problem you have is you have hindsight on the yankees and we are where they were when they first brought those players up. They too didn’t know who was a superstar and who was not. Not until they actually started playing well.
Same thing for the Pitching. It hasn’t arrived here yet but is poised to in as little as a year.
If it manages to hold up to it’s promise then we will have TWO Pettites and maybe more!
Bottomline is the Yankees spent some money to make sure those guys were put into the best situation they could succeed in.
you trade reyes and it will not be as good.
I don’t want to trade Reyes. I want to keep him. Resign him. What does this discussion of the NYY core 5 and the Met core 2 have to do with trading Reyes?
Just trying to point out that buying FA does not stop you from developing the farm. You can do both!
Losing draft picks might seem significant if all you go after is Type A free agents but you don’t need Type A Free agents and if you want one just trade for him!
Metsie we’re talking about adding talent all at the same time. Bringing guys up toogether. Now you stretching our core from 2003-2013. Not the same thing. And who are our HOFers?
Dude the yankees were still buying FA before they had that whole core promoted.
And we are not just talking about the Yankees we are talking about the Phillies as well!
Who is our HOFer?
Well right now it’s reyes, Could eventually be Wright and if Ike keeps doing what he has he will be HOF too!
In fact having a core that stretches over that long of a span is IDEAL as it doen’t leave you with your entire core coming up for renewal in a single year!
It allows you to maintain what you hae without having to spend 100 Mil in a single season to keep it!
When the older of the core is no longer re-signable you should have options in the minor to replace them when that happens!
Sign Reyes o a 5 year deal and by the time year 3 rolls around have a guy who might be an adequate addition to the core at SS and you can then trade reyes before the contract is over for more prospects.
Thats the way to do it.
A revolving door. Buy to stay competitive, Draft and Develop without needing to rush players up, When they are ready sell off the big chips they will replace and keep that going for as long as possible.
Money won’t be an issue because you will draw everyyear (like the Yankees do) and be able to afford any FA salary you deem fit to get or take on!
NYY weren’t buying free agents like we were. Not even close. Michael spent one #1, One #2 and one #3. That’s it. Minaya spent three #1′s two #2′s and a #3. Big difference.
I do agree on spreading it out though but AFTER you have something viable to work with.
At some point you have have the young talent cluster to start off with. That takes scouting, signing and developing the best talent, not the cheapest like we do.
And again ’62, I never boo guys on my own team but I can certainly understand how other people’s patience runs short. Burnitz, Coleman, Vaughn, Alomar, Appier, Matsui, Foster, Perez, Castillo, Bonilla, Schowenweiss, Bay and that doesn’t even include the guys that couldn’t stay on the field like Wagner, Alou, Putz, Pedro, El-Duque.
And people like to point out that prospects aren’t a sure thing.
The fact is that other teams have long ago learned that free agency is just a tool to use selectively, not almost exclusively.
The booing of yet another underperforming expensive import is directed more at ownership and the front office than the player himself. It’s dissatisfaction with the organization blowing it over and over again and Ownership should listen to the fans. We’re their customers. Customer satisfaction is a huge concern for every business in every Country in every industry and we are not satisfied. That’s why attendance is down so much.
We have had our hopes raised mumerous times only to be crashed on the rocks of disapointment over and over again.
Pretty soon there won’t be any fans left over to disapoint. This will be a one team town again.
Hmm? What makes a MET fan? Let me see …..
1. You already know that when you play the ponies or buy a lottery ticket-you will lose.
2. It is ok to go get a beer when the Mets have the bases loaded with no out.
when you get back nothing changed except the third out.
3. All the excuses for bad ballplaying have been heard.
4. You believe all the weird medical terms thrown out for players being on the disabled list.
5. You get tired of explaining “yes I am a New Yorker, No, I am not a Yankee fan!
And finally:
I used to experience mild depression when they lost until my shrink told me; “Lou, it is normal for Met fans to be depressed , and within the psychiatric community we have a name for this syndrome called “METS” (MET Excruciating Traumatic Syndrome” of which there is no cure or treatment except death.”
I’ve coined the term Post-Traumatic Mets Disorder. This is common amongst Mets fans since 2007.
Does this qualify for Social Security disability??
You forgot my favorite, No. 6 – At some point during the game you say, there goes the no-hitter.
Yeah but sometimes I log on to mlb.tv in the second inning and the no hitter was ong gone by then.
It was said of Cubs fans, that they are 90% scar tissue, so what are we?
My guess is 75% scar tissue.
Geez, you can criticize any Met on any day as well as scream and curse about the FO personnel and staff, but as long as you are rooting for your Metsies to win every day, you’re a true fan.
Alderson was a terrible choice. I dont like liars and he’s the king of them as is Ricciardi who even admits it’s perfectly fine to lie to the fans as long as you know the truth.
Canseco was turning everyone onto steroids on Alderson’s watch, Half the clubhouse was doped up and Alderson knew it. The Oakland A’s success was all driven by a pack of lying, cheating, baseabll disrespcting thugs. Alderson knew it and after 20 years he finally took blame and apologized during his interviews after his press conference on WFAN.
You know what you can do with that apology?
The Oakland A’s became the model for cheating and sparked a steroid frenzy among players that undermined the game, robbed great players of their long standing records, and ripped off the fans.
When Juiced came out by Jose Canseco and he said everybody knew including Alderson and LaRussa, Alderson was one of those who said the book was all lies and an attemopt by Canseco to get rich. Five years later Juiced helped cleaned up the game and everyone Canseco accused has been found to be a roider as Canseco said.
Alderson was a terrible choice. His entire career is a sham.
“Alderson was a terrible choice.”
and I’m sure the reasons you present will be well thought and…oops, never mind
“I dont like liars”
You must avoid mirrors like Superman avoids kryptonite.
“and he’s the king of them as is Ricciardi who even admits it’s perfectly fine to lie to the fans as long as you know the truth.”
1) He hasn’t lied
2) Meh. The masses are idiots. It is fine to lie to them about silly little things like grown men playing a game.
“Canseco was turning everyone onto steroids on Alderson’s watch, Half the clubhouse was doped up and Alderson knew it. The Oakland A’s success was all driven by a pack of lying, cheating, baseabll disrespcting thugs. Alderson knew it and after 20 years he finally took blame and apologized during his interviews after his press conference on WFAN.”
Blah blah blah. Lies, revisionist history and fake moral outrage.
“You know what you can do with that apology?
The Oakland A’s became the model for cheating and sparked a steroid frenzy among players that undermined the game, robbed great players of their long standing records, and ripped off the fans.”
The Oakland A’s got Mickey Mantle to take steroids? They convinced players since the 1860s to inject themselves with animal hormones and pills of every color of the rainbow based on the promise that they would play better?
“When Juiced came out by Jose Canseco and he said everybody knew including Alderson and LaRussa, Alderson was one of those who said the book was all lies and an attemopt by Canseco to get rich. Five years later Juiced helped cleaned up the game and everyone Canseco accused has been found to be a roider as Canseco said.”
Cleaned up the game? No, McGwire having a bottle of Andro in plain view did that. Conseco was a rat who cashed in on the fake moral outrage of steroids.
And Conseco seems to like Alderson enough to beg him for a job.
“Alderson was a terrible choice. His entire career is a sham.”
Again, why am I supposed to respect this lunacy?
let us not forget the Cashen regime was lin charge when some heavy drug use and thuggish behavior was taking place. Nobody kills Uncle Frank.
Don’t you know Jdon? The Mets didn’t use PERFORMANCE ENHANCHERS…the drugs they used could have hurt their play. Everyone knows that! /sarcasm *SMH*
I know. I am just saying that things go on under the noses of good GMs as well as bad. And sometimes (perhaps-not proven) they overlook them, in order to put a winner on the field for the poor slobs who pay their money.
Everyone was complicit with steroids. Sandy Alderson — whether or not he was aware and simply turned a blind eye — was hardly the only to GM to do so.
This.
I also particularly love the scapegoating of Alderson for the problem of steroids. EVERYONE DID THEM. Jose Canseco, by his own admission, brought everyone down with him. Canseco happened to play for the A’s under Alderson’s watch. Blaming Sandy Alderson for Jose Canseco shooting steroids into his bum is just dumb, especially when others (including the FANS) turned a blind eye to it, when everyone was hitting home runs as a result of it.
Thanks for writing a “why cant we all get along” post”. lol
You know what makes a REAL Met fan?
1 – Saying you are a Met fan
2 – you Want then to win every game
3 – You feel bad when they don’t win
Pretty much thats all it takes!
As for Alderson and his MONEYBALL ways…
I see no proof of it in any of his actions!
Will he use Sabermetrics? Probably but I doubt highly he used many this year.
Adopting Sabers and using Moneyball BOTH require an awful lot of time to analyze the stats to make a selection. Moneyball even more because you have to look under rocks to find players in places you don’t usually find them.
Sandy and the FO had NONE of this time this offseason to install a philosophy and the evaluation system needed to do a Sabermetric reading and a Moneyball search.
They barely had enough time to look at OUR OWN team to determine who to keep and who to resign.
I don’t think anyone outside of Sandy Alderson (and maybe not even himself) Knows what the plan is to rebuild this franchise back to competitiveness. I believe they are still evaluating and it just so happens that with all the injuries they are getting to evaluate a lot of decent players from the MiLs too, who everyone suggested did not exist!
Will Moneyball be the plan? You will find out soon enough! If Reyes is shipped off for prospects then we would be poised to go in that direction. Doesn’t mean we will though.
To be Honest I don’t agree with many of the beliefs Sandy has regarding OBP but that should not be an issue with me supporting him.
Was he the best guy for the job? We will see but I will go so far to say that he was not the WORST guy we could have gotten!
I do not believe Moneyball has actually succeeded at anything but saving money but I can see situations where playing Moneyball can work provided it’s used as a tool not a franchise wide philosophy for building.
And the use of Sabermetrics is not a problem provided you do not simply rely on metrics that to me are worthless. Personally I don’t think Sandy is a Sabermetric guy, just a guy who believes in deep statistical analysis! Stat analysis is really a science like cooking.
Lots of ingredients to use, it is the combination used that makes a great recipie or a culinary disaster!
So I for one believe Sandy should get a chance to show what he can do, I may disagree with what he does from time to time but thats not important.
He should not be judged by each move individually he should be judged on the entire body of work!
Which at this point isn’t even 3 months worth of data…
Pretty fair Metsie. Alderson wasn’t my first choice, Terry Ryan was but I just don’t see the point in not giving him a fair chance.
You cannot compare Omar’s first off season with bringing fan favorites like Pedro and Beltran here to Alderson’s first year.
Duquette’s first year was an unmitigated disaster but he was gone he never suffered from a backlash.
Phillips started off with an 88 win team, matched it, went to 97 and then 94 before starting his decent so he didn’t catch any flack although in retrospect he and Duquette really cost Omar any chance at all of being able to pull off his overly ambitious plan.
It’s this hatred of sabermetrics or moneyball that takes precedence over rooting for the team that I don’t get.
I don’t care how we get there, I just want to get there and stay there.
how u get there and how u stay there are 2 different things…
to me…u have to grow from within ( which takes at least 4 years )
then supplement with free-agents and an occasional trade…
the thing is…the free-agent route is dwlinding and dwindling…teams are locking up their stars for alot longer…
so that means ur either gonna have to wait longer for ur prospects to develop…OR trade what u have for stars small-market teams cant afford..( hello tampa/kc/pitt/sd/etc)
boston’s model is really what we should be out for…along with minny’s internal model of development…
these teams have COHESION and it comes from the VERY TOP…w/o that…it is impossible to have sustained success.
That is exactly the way I would like to see it done MLB. To the tee. That’s the source of discontent with handing over all the draft choices. We should be developing our own prospects, get their best years, then cash them in for more 1st and 2nd round prospects.
Then we won’t have to be held to just whoever happens to be a free agent every year or a GMJ, Mike Jacobs type to tide us over.
sad to say…but i was actually a mike jacobs fan back in 05…
as far as getting the most from our prospects and cashing them in…i think this is where the AL has such an unfair advantage…its really time to either do both DH or none…its bs that AL teams get to keep their stars and we dont..
The problem is EVERYONE has their own philosophy on how to win…With Drafting, Trading, Selling, FA, Moneyball, Sabermetrics, Scouting, Big Hit, Little Ball, Grow from Within, Pitching First even Yankee Money Clipper…
You know which one you need to use to be a winner?
ALL OF THEM!
It’s only the EXTREMEISTS that post I hate this guy or this won’t work or trade this no re-sign that who miss the point that if you do AS MANY of those ideas in any combination of those things WELL, you will build a good team.
Omar tried the Buy now, Win Now, Draft During, Promote when the Contracts run out.
He never got to the last step. Because the Win Now forced him to take on players who were never expected to hold up long term but would boost the now. Thats the mistake in his chain. But look at all the Minors we got playing for us now, nO they aren’t Strawberry or Clemons but you know what they are probably going to get something good for us once the horse trading starts!
This was the YEAR Omar would be looking to sell the guys he signed like Beltran and Reyes. Maybe he though castillo was not done and Perez had potential, Mistakes yes but they only really cost us money!
So you should think about where we are, look who your infield is and was up until 2 weeks ago because you might see things are not as bad as we tend to make them out to be.
May not be enough to make us champions this year or next but if the plan was going to unfold according to Omar’s contract terms he might have even pulled it off. All the kids we got, Castillo and Beltran off the books and able to spend to re-sign Reyes and maybe sing someone to replace Beltran last year!
I know you think Omar bought his way to oblivion but really other than Bay who has he signed in the last three years?
fact is…Omar under the wilpons, was never gonna run the team the way it should be run…
sandy is the ONLY GM that was available that has the experience and credibility to tell Jeffie to STFU and go back to his corner…
bringing in DEPO and JP just ensures that there wont be the backstabbing that has occured over the years
I agree with a lot of what you said except this:
“I do not believe Moneyball has actually succeeded at anything but saving money”
So I guess Oakland never made the playoffs or had a successful string of 87+ win seasons and Boston hasn’t won any World Series since 1918?…
Ok Quick strike because I have seen this movie already and I got things to do…
1 – Boston didn’t play moneyball they played deep statisitical analysis. Twop very different concepts!
2 – Oakland wasn’t a success nor was Moneyball. How many WS did they win during that time? Now how many did the Yankees win? Oakland cut off it’s nose in the name of profit taking and profits is ALL they got that entire time! more than a Quarter of the league make the playoffs (and more soon to come). Not all impressed with how many wins they had or the fact that they made the playoffs, they LEFT the playoffs as quickly as the worst team IN the playoffs!
No Success there if you ask me! They were cheap! And when they faced teams when it counted that were NOT cheap they lost thier shirt!
1. The book Moneyball is about getting value for your money by targeting aspects that are not properly valued by the league. Boston did that.
2. Okay, so then every team that doesn’t win a World Series is a utter failure… Sure…
They had minuscule payrolls in comparison to their competition yet fielded highly competitive teams
And why would you penalize Beane for what the owners did? He got the most bang for his buck. It’s not his fault he couldn’t get more bucks.
On #2 just do a search on this site for posts about Moneyball It will be faster to catch up to the past history regarding Oakland’s success.
Boston saved money in some places and then went and spent on FAs as well. They did not play moneyball. Just look at their Salary the years they won the WS!
Mostly they used Sabermetrics not moneyball…Or as Depo called it Moneyball with Money!
They saved SOME places to SPEND on others and still had a high payroll!
Boston now has the 3rd highest Payroll in Baseball by the way.
“They saved [in/on] SOME places”
“Moneyball with Money”
Yup, there you go. They saved money on some things. You don’t need to be a small market team to use what the book Moneyball teaches.
Redsox have gotten terrible production from extremely expensive free-agents/resignings such as
1 – edgar renteria
2 – julio lugo
3 – mike cameron
4 – mike lowell
5 – jason varitek
lets not even mention trading david murphy for eric gagne..and trading casey kelly and some stud prospects for adrian gonzalez when they have lars anderson now rotting in AAA LOSING VALUE and a free-agent class that would’ve still included Adrian Gonzalez, Albert Pujols, and Prince Fielder
in 2003, what theo had was the luxury of inheriting a club that won 90 games 3 of the past 4 years in a 3 team division.
Pomes: “I know there are Mets fans who like me don’t believe that Sandy Alderson was the right choice to be general manager” — Who was? If you have an opinion who was NOT the right choice, I’m curious who was the right choice?
“The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team” — yes and the world got along just fine when there was no internet, no calculators and no computers.
Here’s the truth about Alderson and his critics. They criticize him for things out of his control. As though he was supposed to come to New York with 15 big league players in his van. They act as though a 5 year mess can be cleaned up in 5 months. And they refuse to even THINK about understanding his way of thinking, and they assume things about him based on 1 page in a book written about the 2002 season.
They look for ways to dislike him because he’s different than them… and the truth is, they want a GM like Omar. They want free spending and little thought about the future…. yet that is why this franchise is in the hole it’s in.
Well said Jessep but it hasn’t been just five years in the making. In fact the guy over the last 6 had far more of a clue than the two that preceeded him. He just, like all the rest, fell into the direction the Wilpon wanted.
This third death spiral we are in the midst of is a direct consequence of handing over EIGHT first round draft choices, FOUR second round choices and THREE third round draft choices since 1999 as well as Steve Phillips BLOWING FOURTEEN OF SEVENTEEN 1st, 2nd and 3rd round choices and Duquette trading one of the few he didn’t blow.
We have also traded away numerous players who became All Stars after we traded them. Not to say they were neccesarily bad trades but they did shrink our talent level and create holes which led to the need for MORE FA which cost us more picks. Guys like AJ Burnett, Melvin Mora, Nelson Cruz, Carl Everett, Jason Isringhausen, Jose Bautista and Scott Kazmir were traded away to have their best years for someone else. One GM even tried to trade Reyes and Wright. Only Burnett returned anything worthwhile at all.
You cannot simultaneously blow almost every draft choice year after year, trade away anything worthwhile from the farm, get next to nothing from the IFA market from 1992-1999 and then 2000-2005, spend 15 early round draft choices in thirteen years on guys who last anywhere from 100 games to as soon as we can get rid of them and expect to be able to consistently field a winning baseball team.
You cannot make up for the lack of talent because of prior administrations failure to acquire or develop it to provide in house solutions by signing whoever just so happens to be available every year.
The selective use of FA in conjuction with a strong talented farm is a very viable method of building a team but to rely on free agency to solve every need will only work once or twice a decade and only then when at least three of the four teams in your own Division fall on hard times.
As Joe Mcilvaine said “free agency is a short term solution to a long term problem.” It is high time we stop monkeying around and start solving that long term problem.
This:
“One GM even tried to trade Reyes and Wright.”
Phillips nearly dealt both of them…Wright to Toronto for the awful Jose Cruz Jr and Reyes to Cleveland in the Robbie Alomar deal. Just imagine the disasters that those deals would’ve been. Phillips was notoriously an “I want to win now, not three years from now” type of GM (to steal a quote from Kevin Burkhardt in regards to the Mejia situation last year).
What a dumb blog post.
LOL about @GregPomes calling for Mets fans to stop being name-calling children on Twitter. LOL! Who are you writing this to, Greg, yourself?
Whats hilarious in all of this is Sandy Alderson has been here for 1 offseason with a no-wiggle-room budget. Expecting him to turn a 4th or 5th place roster into a playoff team doesn’t happen overnight, or in this case, a single offseason where he had literally 0 financial wiggle room.
Real Mets fans apparently complain in a public forum when there are too many Latinos on the team (this is where I’d link to Greg’s old post on exactly that topic, but the good folks at Metsmerized online had the sense to remove it from the website).
You stay classy, Pomes.
Pot Kettle Black.
Greg, you seem like a nice guy, totally unreasonable, but nice. Alderson has basically been hired to manage a train wreck for a foolish ownership group trying to remain solvent.
You constantly bash him as having a Moneyball approach when all he ever advocates is proper evaluation. Moneyball is a title of a book not a philosophical approach to financial management of rosters regardless of circumstance. Alderson was the GM of the A’s through 1997 before their ownership went cheap and Billy Beane who worked under Alderson HAD TO become a master at bean counting into division titles (with some good fortune on his side as well).
The lamest evidence I suppose you could supply that Alderson is going to turn the Mets into a Billy Beane side project was the lack of spending for I guess Cliff Lee or something, as he was the only player who moved via free agency or trade that the Mets had a conceivable need for.
However, a quasi level of objective reality would tell anyone that signing a 32 year old pitcher to a six year deal is economically idiotic unless you were definitively already a championship caliber team selling out your park for nearly two years running.
I’ve seen you bash Ike Davis on twitter which is just borderline insanity. I guess his problem is what, he makes no money so he represents money ball.
It’s not that you can’t have a different opinion, it’s that it would be neat if the opinion was at least partially rooted to something resembling cogent thinking vs random opinion and poorly sketched theories of connect the dots.
It’s pretty incredible that people hate the “Moneyball” approach and have never read the book, don’t even understand what it’s all about. It’s all about looking for bargains in overlooked places through market inefficiencies. Back in the late 90′s/early 00′s, teams were not valuing high OBP players at all, to the point where they were available for nothing on the open market. The A’s brought in good offensive players while spending little money on them. Guys who could walk, work a count, get their pitch and hit it far.
Not to mention that people conveniently forget that the approach was actually very successful for the A’s:
from 1998 through 2006, the A’s won 74, 87, 91, 102, 103, 96, 91, 88 and 93 games. Did they win a World Series? No, but you know what? The playoffs are a crapshoot (remember the 2006 Cardinals who won just 83 games?) and just to be in the race and win multiple division crowns is quite the accomplishment. How many 8 year runs of at least 87 wins do the Mets have in their 50 year history with their “old school baseball” GMs? Oh that’s right…none. I’d KILL for the Mets to have a run like this.
Are you Alderson’s agent, an A’s fan, or both? Your getting pretty defensive over a post advocating respecting other fans opinions. I mean you’re in attack mode. Relax. Breathe.
All Senorstem is doing is stating facts. How that is “attack mode”, I don’t know. In fact, if anyone is in attack mode, it’s you since you all you did was accuse someone of having anterior motives when they defend Alderson and/or the sabermetric movement rather than form an argument that defeats what he said.
This didnt seem like a post about moneyball or saber, so the facts had nothing to do with the point of the post. Here are some more facts. The Mets won the World Series in 1969 and 1986. No book was written about the process, but pretty sure moneyball wasnt involved. T’m not an Alderson fan, was hoping Pat Gillick got the job. Okay go ahead and bash me for my minority opinion and prove Pomes is a genius.
No, the OP wasn’t directly about Sabermetrics or Moneyball but he did manage to put jabs in there nonetheless. That should tell you something about Pomes, shouldn’t it.
How could Moneyball have been involved in the ’69 or ’86 seasons when it wasn’t even published yet? That is exactly the point Senorstem is making; people act as if Moneyball is a theory. It’s not, it’s a title of a book about finding market deficiencies.
And Gillick would have been a fine GM choice but I’m not sure he was ever in the running (meaning I don’t think he would have come out of retirement).
Which article are you reading?
“I know there are Mets fans who like me don’t believe that Sandy Alderson was the right choice to be general manager. Some of us feel his moneyball ways are simply wrong and not cut out for a large market team like the Mets. The over-reliance on sabermetrics seems foolish and short-sighted to me. The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team. I know I’m not the only one who feels that way, in fact most ballplayers – former and current – scoff at it.” -Greg Pomes
An entire paragraph of this article was dedicated to how sabermetrics and “moneyball” is the bane of baseball’s existence.
Pat Gillick? You really thought Gillick would A) come out of retirement and B) go against the organization that he built up in Philly? Yeah, that’s a bit of an insane opinion if you ask me. Sure, he would’ve been a good choice but there was not even any talk of him. I happened to like Terry Ryan a bit, the former GM in Minnesota but he wasn’t involved either.
And I don’t see what the ’69 and ’86 series wins have to do with this. They won those championships because the GMs put two great teams together. Sure, no book was written about them but they also didn’t use a new strategy like those A’s did. The ’69 Mets were built on excellent pitching and the ’86 Mets were built up by Frank Cashen, who was already a very talented GM. Both teams were built through the farm, which is the way these Mets teams should be built as well. I think we can agree there.
Excuse me…attack mode? You seem to be the one in attack mode, sir. All I’m doing is writing the truth. Most people who attack “Moneyball” have never read the book and don’t even understand what it’s about. That seems to be the truth to me. And stating that the A’s were successful during this period is another way to prove that, well, perhaps this method actually works. I could point to the successes of the Red Sox and Rays using statistical analysis but I won’t waste the time, so as not to get labeled as being in “attack mode”.
“Every team has a fanbase that likes certain players on the team and dislikes other players. I know there is a good number of fans who like myself dislike Carlos Beltran. Like me, they think he’s selfish, overrated and overpaid.”
Right, there are. And like you, those fans are just ignorant….Beltran has done nothing but produce since coming here. He’s an awesome fielder, he’s an incredible hitter, and he’s had so many big hits since coming here. You can cite Game 7 all you want, but without him, we absolutely don’t get there. He supports charities, and all of his teammates love him.
If you could even reasonably explain why you hate Beltran so much, then maybe one would respect your opinion on him.
As for Alderson…it’s about proper evaluation of players. Omar and his predecessors did atrocious jobs of player evaluation…it’s what led to Alex Cora, Francoeur, and all the other scrubs that started for this team. It’s what led to Jason Bay’s contract, it’s what led to KRod’s stupid vesting option.
You hate on Alderson because he didn’t sign Cliff Lee….one, he would have NEVER signed here, and two…aren’t we already seeing the disastrous consequences of signing a pitcher to a monster extension?
It would be nice having rational discussions with you, but your arguments rarely have any logical backing behind them, and mostly rely on MSM-driven cliches.
When the only reason you say you can hate Beltran is because of something totally unmeasurable like “toughness”….it’s hard to respect your arguments.
This has to go both ways Greg.
“I know I’m not the only one who feels that way, in fact most ballplayers – former and current – scoff at [Sabermetrics].”
Yeah, most ball players probably don’t know algebra either. Does that mean algebraic is “foolish and short-sighted”?
<"Like me, they think he’s selfish, overrated and overpaid. [...] We don’t have to agree on everything and anything. However there’s a civil way to do it without resorting to name calling or worse."
Um, contradictory much?
If there is a worse writer than Greg Pomes, I have yet to find them.
“If there is a worse writer than Greg Pomes, I have yet to find them.”
It’s no surprise why Jon Heyman likes him so much.
Pomes, were you not the only Mets fan on the face of planet earth who managed to not enjoy Beltran’s 3 homers vs Colorado, then making excuses that Coors Field had to do with it?
Typical Greg Pomes BS drivel: all based on strawmen arguments and unrealistic opinions and lacking in cold, hard facts. Let’s break this down a little bit.
“Since the hiring of Sandy Alderson there seems to be a an overwhelming sentiment among the fanbase that if you don’t 100% support everything Alderson and his front office do then you’re not a real fan of the New York Mets.”
Where is this happening? I’ll tell you right now that I’m an Alderson supporter and I certainly haven’t agreed with every move he’s made. Giving Scott Hairston a major league deal was curious from the beginning. Terry Collins is a pretty poor manager from a strategy sense (maybe a half step up from Jerry Manuel, but still poor). I wasn’t completely on board with the Chris Young signing…I wanted somebody a little more stable. I think it’s YOUR OVERREACTION to stupid little things that has people questioning your fandom. “Chris Capuano gave up a run #firesandyalderson #smallmarketsandy” is quite the overreaction. Consistently railing against your team’s front office just because you don’t agree with them using statistics is going to get you questioned and it’s pretty obvious how you’ve felt about Sandy and Co from day one just by reading your tweets.
“Gone are the days when having a different opinion was acceptable. Today, Mets fans who disagree with the front office are labeled haters and trolls. They are singled out and attacked on sites like this one or social mediums like Twitter.”
It’s okay to have a difference of opinion with some aspects. It’s another to put them on a cross for every little mistake and end every single tweet with #firesandyalderson days after the guy was named GM. You come off looking like a spoiled, whiny child who didn’t get their ice cream after dinner. Patience is the name of the game. Not every move will work…that’s just the way it works. These guys aren’t psychics…they’re baseball talent evaluators.
“I know there are Mets fans who like me don’t believe that Sandy Alderson was the right choice to be general manager. Some of us feel his moneyball ways are simply wrong and not cut out for a large market team like the Mets. The over-reliance on sabermetrics seems foolish and short-sighted to me. The game got along just fine for over 100 years without using sabermetrics to build a solid roster and a championship level team. I know I’m not the only one who feels that way, in fact most ballplayers – former and current – scoff at it.”
So just because baseball was around for 100 years means that sabermetrics is not important? Let’s see…I’ll twist this into some other contexts for you:
-The world got along just fine for many years without cars to drive us around. Using horse and buggies were perfectly fine for all of those other years. Why do we need these heathen cars?
-The world got along just fine for many years without the internet to research information and read BS columns like this. We should just go back to having all information come from a library and books being filled with old, static information that isn’t edited for years at a time.
Your argument is pretty short-sighted, by suggesting that just because something was one way it should stay that way forever. Sabermetrics utilizes stats as a way to gain a competitive edge over other teams and to just eschew it because there was no such thing a hundred years ago is akin to the old “Earth is flat” theory. You’d better watch out the next time you take a trip…you might fall of the edge, right?
And I don’t see how a “moneyball strategy”, whatever that means, is wrong for any sort of team. Just because you have 140 million to spend in payroll doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be smart with it and try to make the most of it. You seem to want to sign more players to big, expensive deals and yet you don’t want the Mets to be smart with their money. You have to understand that there’s a limit on the money, whether you like it or not, at ~140 million. The Mets could easily be a more competitive team with a payroll of around 120 million. And as much as I disagree with spending this much on an aging pitcher, that extra budget room that Omar Minaya spent on trash, could’ve been spent on a Cliff Lee last offseason or some other big name signing that could’ve put the Mets over the edge. Instead, there was 19 million spent literally on trash (LOLiver Perez, Luis Castillo and Gary Matthews) that blocked the team from making any other moves. You can’t have it both ways. Financial prudence is key when you don’t have an unlimited payroll like the Yankees do (ie every other team in baseball).
“Every team has a fanbase that likes certain players on the team and dislikes other players. I know there is a good number of fans who like myself dislike Carlos Beltran. Like me, they think he’s selfish, overrated and overpaid. Those fans are also bashed and called names that I can’t repeat on a site like this. There are also many who dislike Jose Reyes and/or David Wright too. Reyes and Wright are my two favorite players. I believe they are the most important players on the team. Some of you would probably disagree with that and that’s just fine, you are entitled to your opinions. We don’t have to agree on everything and anything. However there’s a civil way to do it without resorting to name calling or worse.”
I’m not going to get into your little “Hate on Beltran” fetish just because it is so irrational. I’m just curious what exactly you wanted out of the guy and what he hasn’t done in your eyes to satisfy the contract. But why am I even asking…this is Blubbery Pomes I’m talking to here. But if you really want people to take you seriously, you’ll comment on what Beltran could’ve done to make him worth the contract in your eyes. And it’s quite a contradiction to not want people to call you names and then to go out and call Beltran “Selfish” and “Soft”. He’s a human being as well. If you call him “soft” and “selfish”, I can call you “Blubbery Whale Pomes”.
“The bottom line is we are all Mets fans, we all love our team, and we all want to see them win. We buy their merchandise, we buy their tickets and we watch them regularly. We are entitled to have different views and that’s what makes sports fun and worth debating. Let’s get back to having civil, adult discussions instead of acting like children and calling people names and making fun of them simply because they have different opinions on what’s right for the team and what isn’t.”
Different views are fine. It’s the constant negativity and railing of the front office from the beginning is why you get picked on often by people. Nobody takes you seriously, because you’re basically a punchline and a caricature of yourself. We know that you’ll discount ANYTHING good Beltran does and we feel as if you probably wouldn’t be happy if the Mets won a WS with Alderson in charge just because you don’t agree with the way he does business. You’ve dug your own hole with your ignorance and your consistent railing of the front office. Now, you have to lie in it.
This gave me half a chub.
“Plenty of people like me” I certainly don’t feel that way at all. Not in the least. I know of only one person with such extreme views on certain subjects.
Plenty? Maybe a handful at most.
In my opinion a real Mets fan is one who has stuck with the team through the thick and thin. The chaos in the 90s and the roller coaster ride that was the 2000s have tested the fan base and this year is no different. NY baseball fans have had plenty of chances to jump on the Yankees bandwagon, hell same would apply for NY football fans jumping on the Giants bandwagon and those who decided to stick with their team get my respect.
Alderson, his brain trust and Collins cannot be fully judged until they have at least one season under their belt, its only fair.
Agreed. And personally, I’d say you have to give it at least 2-3 years to fully judge. One offseason of moves is such a small sample, especially when Alderson had no financial flexibility whatsoever.
depends..
People say Omar was blessed to inherit 2 franchise players…
well Sandy inherits the same 2 franchise players in their prime..
and unlike Omar…Sandy ALSO inherits…Ike Davis…a Jason Bay in his prime…a still very good Carlos Beltran…3 home-grown pitchers in Pelf/gee/niese…a closer not named braden looper…
a farm system with tejada/havens/valdespin ready to take over 2B…guys like thole at catcher, murphy who can play several positions
(im a thole/murph/davis fan)
also depth like pridie/turner
fact is, if sandy comes in 2005…we suck gorilla donkey nuts for another 3-4 years and the wilpons are mad that attendance is low ( while we’re mad that the team sucks )
at the end of the day…the wilpons brought omar in TO BRING UP ATTENDANCE….winning a WS is never on their list of NEED TO DO…but a NICE TO HAVE
Under Omar, Met attendance records went up in 2005/2006/2007/2008 and broke records the last 3 years…
u wanna know why they would resign him after the 2007 collapse?
he just made them ALOT of money…and had he decided to NOT come to NY…we would be in much worse shape then AND now…no GM wants this gig…thats why Bud Selig had to beg Sandy to come work with these putzes…
the first gm to come from outside the org in 30 years HAD TO BE BEGGED BY THE COMMISSIONER to take the job…
that says ALOT
You have to look at the money side, too. Omar did inherit the same two players…however, he didn’t inherit the same financial mess that Alderson did (and I’m not talking about the Wilpons…I’m talking about Minaya’s wide open checkbook). When Alderson got here, this team 135 million tied up in payroll with guys like Perez, Castillo, Matthews, Bay etc eating up a ton of money. Minaya inherited a relatively inexpensive team when he took over after 2004…many of the albatross contracts had been moved or expired (Alomar, Vaughn, Burnitz, etc were all gone by this point). That’s a big reason why he was able to make the splash for Beltran, Pedro and nearly Delgado in that first offseason. Alderson didn’t have close to that level of flexibility, most of that room being tossed in the trash on Perez, Castillo and Matthews. And it’s not like there was a Beltran type player on the market either (Werth and Crawford are good but they’re nothing like a 27 year old Beltran, who was a 5 tool player with gold glove caliber defense in CF).
Building up attendance is nice, but that just tells me whole lot about the Wilpons. It’s all about money. A WS is secondary? Hmm…I would’ve never known with the way they allow their GMs to tear apart teams with gargantuan contracts. It’s been the strategy for years…sign the big player to make the splash in the offseason and get the back pages for a couple of days, and then skimp in the draft and IFA market. For a big market team, the Mets have spent little to nothing in the draft and IFA markets, continually ranking at the bottom of the rankings. I’ll even give you this…if not for Minaya’s scouts, the farm system would be completely barren. They basically turned water into wine with their minuscule budgets in the draft and IFA markets, finding guys like Mejia and Familia for about 20k and finding soft tossers like Gee and Cohoon in the later rounds. Just imagine if they spent a little money…the farm system could be a monster but yet they’d rather give the false impression that they do care about the team, when they really care about money. Is this what being a fan is about? Being happy the Mets made money? I don’t know about you but I want a consistent winner. I want a farm system that’s going to be at the top of the ranks. Winning brings in the big bucks, yet the Wilpons don’t see it that way…they’d rather have the quick buck a big free agent brings in. Look at the Phillies: they built through their farm system with Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels and other players and they’ve won consistently for 5 years now. It’s brought them such an influx in cash that they could continually add expensive players year after year. Without the winning and the excellent players they developed, they have no Cliff Lee this year. They have no Halladay because they wouldn’t be able to raise their payroll as much as they have.
And this:
“the first gm to come from outside the org in 30 years HAD TO BE BEGGED BY THE COMMISSIONER to take the job…”
is a flat out exaggeration of the truth. Yes, he was SUGGESTED by Bud Selig to the Wilpons but he never BEGGED the Wilpons to take him. He merely suggested that he’d be a good choice and he knew Alderson was interested in the position. Suggesting that he was forced into the job or forced on the Wilpons is a major exaggeration of the truth.
i am exaggerating….however the point is…IF NOT FOR BUD SELIG…neither the Wilpons NOR Sandy would have been interested in a partnership with each other.
The wilpons would’ve promoted John Ricco…we would’ve had the same garbage…wash/rinse/repeat
“Being happy the Mets made money? I don’t know about you but I want a consistent winner. I want a farm system that’s going to be at the top of the ranks.”
We are in agreement
as for the type of teams that Minaya/Sandy inherited..
Minaya inherited a team with:
1 – an old immovable catcher in Piazza..
2 – a terrible SS in Matsui…( reyes moved to SS fulltime in 2005 )
3 – only 1 decent pitcher…who was 37 years old..
4 – NO CLOSER ( unless u call braden looper a closer )
5 – NO RF ( unless u call Victor Diaz a RF )
6 – NO Farm System
I dont compare Sandy to Omar…i think its retarded….Sandy overall is a much better GM from a holistic standpoint…its not even close…but Omar is a great talent evaluator…and on another team with another set of owners…I think he would be allowed to see a long term plan grow to fruition long enough to be considered a top GM…NY and its fickle fanbase is NOT that patient..most GM’s not named Theo or Cashman would’ve been ran out of town..and remember…the only time the yanks went through a rebuilding phase was when they hit ROCK BOTTOM…and GS was suspended for a few years…and when he came back…he wanted to trade Bernie..and wasnt to warm with giving DJ the SS spot in 1996…so its not a surprise that in 15 years since 1996…yanks have only had a few of their prospects make the team…all the while trading guys like jose tabata and austin jackson and nearly trading montero for cliff lee…
since 1996, yanks have only had 3 guys drafted/signed as intl free-agents start more than 100 games for them…
melky
gardner
cano
and now that teams are playing keep-away with their young studs…( see royals refusing to trade ZG or Soria to the yanks…and seattle stiffing the yanks at last second ) the yanks fall from grace will be swift and very brutal…
What are you talking about, since 1996 the NYY have only had three players from their farm start 100 games. Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Soriano, Spencer, Johnson, Cervelli, Ledee, Leyritz, Fox, Phillips, Gerald Williams plus pitchers like Pettite, Rivera, El-Duque, Wang, Mendoza, Chamerlain, Irabu, Hughes, Robertson, Contreas in addition to Melky Gardiner and Cano.
Not all of them have won batting titles, gone to All Star games, won MVP’s but quite a few have. In addition those who didn’t at least were able to fill in for a year or so so that the NYY didn’t have to fall back on that lame excuse of “well who else were we going to get to play ______.” to explain away a bad signing.
They didn’t have GMJ or Mike Jacobs in their opening day lineup.
They have 3 catchers in their minor league system and two more in the Majors better than our starting catcher.
The only real success that we have had other than Reyes, Wright and Davis (spanning a full decade in between obtaining them) is when we have traded prospects for current Major Leaguers something the NYY have excelled at since they were laughing stocks of the ML’s.
Paul O’Neil, Tino, Knoblauch, Brosius, Curtiss, Swisher, Cone, and plenty of others.
The draft and the IFA market keep their roster stocked with talent AND in house solutions so their not always in the position of having to go FA for every need and then having to live with bad play for a few years. They also don’t have to rely only on what is available in free agency because they have a farm. Everyone is available when you have a farm, not just free agents. Everyone.
Their options are limitless because they have the prospects to go out and get whoever they want AND they have the talent base to add them to.
The NYY don’t go fifty years between producing an All Star LFer. They don’t go 30 years between all Star RFers. They don’t wait around to see who’ll be a free agent 2nd basemen. They go out and sign a Robinson Cano for 250,000. We’ve spent 45 M in 2nd basemen since 2004 and gotten **** all for our efforts and we knew about Cano. We passed on him. We wouldn’t meet his request despite the fact that the same scout who signed Reyes lived right next door to Cano.
Slice it and dice it anyway you want to the fact is the reason this team cannot win at all, let alone consistently is because we have less talent than most other teams and frequently the talent we import isn’t as good as it once was and can no longer consistently stay on the field.
I just don’t see how anyone with a vested interest in the Mets being solid consistent post season qualifiers can accept, let alone justify, or seek to understand us continually going up against other teams short handed.
It’s a flawed philosophy that is doomed to provide exactly the type of results we have experienced over the last twenty years.
“They didn’t have GMJ or Mike Jacobs in their opening day lineup.”
They didn’t have 28,000 average attendance at Yankee Stadium either!
They had 42,489 attendance instead!
Was it because of thier farm system that they drew that much?
You say it was the Yankee farm that have kept them able to make trades for good players but the truth is the “good” players you claim they gave away are not anything all that special but were good enough because the guy they traded for COST too much and they wanted to dump Salary so took whatever just to get something PLUS Money off the books.
No. They drew that much in attendance because they win games. They win games because they have good players, who they either develop often or acquire for other players who they have developed.
And you can’t tell me that every player the Yankees have acquired has been a salary dump. That’s just blatantly avoiding the facts. Acquiring Curtis Granderson wasn’t a salary dump. The Yankees traded some pretty good, hyped prospects in Ian Kennedy and Austin Jackson to get an OFer making little money in arbitration. Kennedy and Jackson have turned into solid players in their own right. Jackson’s not at Granderson’s level, but Kennedy’s been solid for the D-Backs. And really, what the players turned into has little relevance to the argument. The argument for the Mets spending more on the farm system is so that they have talent to either develop for themselves or trade away. You need valuable players in your system to trade in order to trade away prospects for major leaguers and having a stable of prospects makes this much easier, then if you’re like the Mets and you have maybe 3 prospects with big potential, 4 more with decent potential, 2 toolsy players who may or may not develop and the rest being fringey guys. That’s not a way to run a healthy minor league system.
the salary dumps were Austin Kearns and Lance Berkman
That worked out real well for them.
Metsie, we were skimping out on the draft and IFA market with RECORD ATTENDANCE.
2006-2008 were the best 3 consecutive years of paid attendance in our history so why skimp on the draft? Why skimp on IFA’s? Why Voluntarally hand over your #1 draft choice? Why sell TWO 1st round draft picks for a DH?
You just couldn’t be more wrong on this issue.
“Why Voluntarally hand over your #1 draft choice?”
Because your in a playoff race and need a closer!
Thats why!
There are no pennant races in November Metsie. There over by then. Plus the player signed wasn’t a closer when we handed over the draft pick. He was a 40 year old LFer who we signed one week before the Giants had to decide if they were going to offer arbitration to Alou.
By signing him before we just ensured that they would get our draft choice.
What spin can you put on us signing Alou and giving away the first round draft choice without at the very least, waiting a week to see if we could keep our pick?
Excuse me but the first rounder we lost in 2006 was due to Wagner not Alou!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Major_League_Baseball_Draft
Noted on the bottom of the page!
We did it to get a CLOSER!
In 2007 we got Alou and why did we do that? Because Cameron was a mess after colliding with Beltran! Again! We were in a PLAYOFF RACE!
Did you happen to KNOW that Ike Davis was a 1st round PICKUP compensatory pick in 2008 for Atlanta signing Glavine away from us? Did that FACTOR into your waste quotient and Omar WASTED moves?
WE WERE IN A PLAYOFF RACE those three years. That is precisely the TIME to buy and give up picks to get the guys who can take you to the WS!
It is what Oakland NEVER DID despite how good they adhered to your system and competitive they were, which is why THEY NEVER WON a WS!
We then gave away another 1st rounder for Rodriguez because the closer we had got hurt!
You can complain about the Alou pick all you want. It was a BUSINESS mistake more than a BASEBALL mistake!
And no one ever said Omar was a good businessman what we said was he was a good evaluator of talent and is the guy who can pick winners when given a good draft position and opportunity to get at the talent.
The draft pick that I was referring to, that you were responding to, eas the one we Voluntarally handed over, which was the Alou one you now claim was a business decision. Whatever that means.
It didn’t effect the baseball team? We couldn’t have drafted a good player with it? If Omar was that good I’m sure we just threw away a good player and you just claim it was a baseball move? Explain to us how that baseball move makes sense?
If Omar was such a good talent evaluator why didn’t he evaluate the possibility that Alou at 40 might be hurt as often as the Alou of 25 and that the draft pick might be a much better investment.
If Omar was such a great talent evaluator he could have signed Jayson Werth that same off season for 1/10 the price with no loss of draft choice.
Isn’t it the job of the GM to evaluate how players will produce going forward?
Of course I’m aware of how we got Davis. I was writing about it just today. Everyone knows how we got him.
“We couldn’t have drafted a good player with it? ”
Yeah we traded Wendell Farley for Alou!
How have we gotten along without him?
Why didn’t a talent evaluator not PREDICT Alou’s injury problems?
Because he is a GM not a doctor or soothsayer, he goes by the numbers the guy put up?
I guess Sandy was wrong to not have someone in place for David Wright and that he should have predicted it and shipped him off too?
The pick you so gloriously wave as the Banner of Omar’s stupidity netted the Giants Wendell Farley dude!
It was also the 29th pick in that round!
So NO you wouldn’t have gotten anytyhing good there unless you were LUCKY and some 2nd round guy did more than ANYONE expected!
They gave away the pick next to DEAD LAST in the first round for Alou!
And OH my according to you the frnachise was RUINED because of it…A franchise at the time was IN or CLOSE TO the playoffs three years running and trying to get that little extra to put them over the top!
Is this an autobiographical epiphany, Pomes? You’ve written some of the most petulant crap on Twitter I have ever seen.
Senor? XCan we forget about lost 1ST round picks since without the flexibility to exceed miserly slot they’d be virtually unsignable in many instances & as far as I’m concerned an ensigned selection is no more valuable than “no selection”. giving up what u can’t have is tantamount of sacrificing tyhe sleeves out of your vest.
While first round picks certainly, when signed,sealed & in your system are invaluable for future compoetition level they are valueless if never signed at all
Perhaps that was the thought process all along as other non slot constrained teams avoid gamble F/A to retain meaningful draft positions; perhaps the gamble becomes worth it when the draft position is valueless. I’m tired of all this speculation on who we coulda,woulda had if not… here on MMO Tagee is the MASTER OF THAT SPECULATIVE DOMAIN
62, by that token Ike Davis is worthless. so is David Wright, Brad Holt, Matt Harvey, Mike Pelfrey.
You don’t consider any of them to be valueless do you?
I think there is a misconception here. Going over slot has killed us, not so much with the first round selection but with 2nd and 3rd round selections with guys who fell due to signability concerns as well as later take a chance on high school talent in say the 19th, 20th and 21st and pay them to start their professional career NOW.
But I would certainly agree that the handing over of draft picks without having to give ANY bonus is something that makes the Wilpon happy although I do not understand that thought process. It only leads to paying A LOT MORE later and getting A LOT LESS for it. Maybe there’s a depreciation tax dodge snookered into this line of thinking.
Either way this thinking leaves us short on talent, short on options and as everyone can tell leaves fans short on patience. Perhaps Bud Selig can buy all the tickets that the Mets don’t sell from here on out because obviously Bud means a lot more to the Wilpon than the fans do.
I wouldn’t seek to excuse, condone, understand, justify, or properly put in context the very thing that has kept this team from being a viable contending baseball team. I would simply condem it to the high heavens until it stops and we begin acting like a big market team.
Maybe then we won’t be restricted to the playoffs only in years in which the Marlins give us their best players because of finances.
Nabbing a couple of college and a couple of high school prospects in addition to our 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks would beef up this farm in no time. Three years we would have a top 5 farm, options so we don’t have to play the old “who will we get to play these 5-10 positions?” every year, options to nab an ace or two. Keep our IFA presence strong in the Caribbean and EXPAND it to Panama and Colombia.
Then someday we can go head to head with Atl, Philly, Fla and beat them when their good and it really matters, like in a pennant race someday.
I think u build a strong farm to serve several purposes…
one u keep the rotation of players in and out of ur system fresh…when players hit their early 30′s…u offer them 4 year contracts TOPS…if not…arb or trade…
i would take this approach with reyes and wright if they were 32…since they are 27/28…u can offer an extra year…but under no circumstance should u be offering 7 year contracts…to ANYONE over 26…
right NOW…i think we have a great farm…
familigla tejada, aderlin, puello, flores, marte would all be 1st round draft picks right now…
the thing with IFA is…u cant really judge the talent signed at 16 for at least 3-4 years…
ike, reese, murph,thole, niese, parnell, pelf, jsmith, gee all flew through the system…i dont agree with that approach…this is another fault i found with Omar…he was GREAT with scouting but his organizational development skills were piss poor…not sure how much control he had over it…but i dont think he had a good grip on it…or by the time he did, the damage was done…carlos gomez would be an all-star OF if the kid learned patience…bringing him up at 19 stunted his growth big-time…plus i think his head was super gassed…much more than l-millz
We do not have a GREAT farm. Our farm has been consistently rated in the mid 20′s for most of the last decade or two.
We do have some interesting prospects especially on the pitching side with Mejia, Harvey, Familia, Rodriguez and Urbina but position wise all our talent is miles away and most of whats close isn’t even playing a position their expected to handle in the Majors.
The results so far have certainly been encouraging but we’re only a month into the minor league season. At the end of 2010 we had seven guys considered to be among the top 20 prospects in the league in which they competed. No one in AAA, Newenhaus in AA (barely) Flores in A+ (not a SS) followed by five guys from the Appalachian League to the Sally League where top 20 gives you about a 20% chance of even making it to the Majors so it’s as far from being a great farm as you can get.
You have to add back in Mejia, Harvey and possibly Tejada since they didn’t play at all or all that much in the minors in 2010 but anything can happen along the way. Anything. Just look at Havens. No major injury or anything but look at what counting on just one guy for 2B has done to us.
A great system is the Rangers. 19 guys rated as top 20 prospects in their league spread evenly throughout their entire system including 8 pitching prospects. The Royals with 7 highly regarded pitching prospects. The Rays with 9 (and 10 of the first 100 picks in this years draft) The NYY with 6 (and THREE CATCHERS) The Padres with 8. The Dodgers Braves and Pirates with 7. The Rockies with 9. At the end of last year we had one, in the Appalachain League.
Like a lot of fans, people think because they hear about our best prospects they think we have a great farm. We don’t. We’ve been consistently rated in the mid 20′s every year. The facts is other teams have many many more prospects than we do and they are far more highly regarded than ours are.
One of the big things people point out is that we’ve had a lot of recent graduates of the farm as if we’re the only one’s. Like Heyward, Hanson, Beachy, Venters, Kimbrell, Posey, Bumgarner, Stanton and the like didn’t recently graduate from the Braves, Giants and Marlins farm.
We have recent graduates but no one like those guys. Niese and Gee are good (and very good draft picks) but while Murphy, Thole, Parnell, Duda and Fern maybe useful players there not exactly good comparisons to the Braves, Giants or really anyone else.
Ike Turner and Pride are miles away eh?
Havens too I suppose.
Take off the blinder and stop looking at other people’s lists becuase you can’t make a determination or see them on your own!
The ones you HAVE SEEN THIS YEAR?
All wastes of picks to you?
What doesn’t constitute a waste? Does it require Cy Young or Batting Title before you think he is a GOOD player?
Look Metsie. Turner and Pridie were DFA’d by Baltimore and Minnesota respectvely. The passed unclaimed through the entire American League and those National League teams with worse records than we had on waivers before we had a chance to claim them.
Does that indicate to you that their considered to be top shelf talents?
Ike was a first round draft choice from a big time college baseball program and a member of the US Olympic Team. Not exactly found by superior scouting. A good pick. Sure. Much better than Kunz that’s for sure but one good pick every half decade or so is not enough to get us to the Post season or haven’t you noticed.
I don’t have access or desire to watch college or minor league baseball as if it was my profession.
Don’t dispute the substance of what I say, dispute the source from which it came. The same source you use to back your opinions. Baseball America.
Last year over 25% of post season rosters were filled by players who at one time or another were ranked as one of the top 20 prospects in their league while they were in the minors.
Discount the source all you want but on average each playoff team last year had over SIX players that appeared on this list in prior years on their post season roster. We have SEVEN players TOTAL five of which are in the lowest levels of the minors and they have miles to go before their even close to just a cup of coffee (if they ever do) let alone occupying a post season roster spot for us.
“Does that indicate to you that their considered to be top shelf talents?”
Does what they have done here recently indicate to you that they are worthless and can never make it in the MLB?
You!, The guy who is all about using ALL METHODS to AQUIRE players are going to reduce their evaluation based on the method used to get him?
Does that also mean Beato is not an asset that helps this team win games and could be a CORE player on this team for years to come?
He was aquired in the SAME EXACT circumstances as Pridie and Turner!
An entire league passed on them and we didn’t!
he team that had him thought he was worth putting into a position to lose him and did!
After the entire MLB passed on him. Remember we took Emaus with our first pick! SO everyone had to pass on Beato not just once but TWICE!
I guess you think he is worthless too!
Either you are over estimating everyone else’s grass or under estimating and IGNORING what those kids are doing RIGHT NOW on a Major League Ballgame on a Major League TEAM agsint MAJOR LEAGUE Pitchers and Players!
As the old saying goes…A bird in the hand is worth TWO even THREE OR FOUR in the Bush!
I agree with what Agee’s saying. As much as you want to think it, Pridie and Turner are not top shelf talents and are not future stars at this point. They each have their flaws, which are pretty obvious. Pridie’s a 4th OFer at best because he has plate discipline issues (he strikes out too much, which seems to put him into long funks at the plate). Turner doesn’t have a standout tool and has had to prove himself at each level (and thus far has). I like both guys and they are certainly nice cogs to have but to completely rely on those kinds of pickups to keep the team afloat is stupid. You want to develop your own IMPACT players (Wright, Reyes, Tulowitzki, Lincecum, Halladay). Those are the types of players you typically can’t acquire for free on the waiver wire and you have to draft them or acquire them via trade and (likely) give away talent to get them.
I like the contributions of Turner and Pridie thus far but on a good, playoff bound team, they’re likely role/bench players (maybe you make a case for Turner starting but I can’t say that they’re full season starters, both from my own eyes and from what I’ve read of each player).
“Pridie and Turner are not top shelf talents and are not future stars at this point.”
PROVE IT!
If they continue to do what they are doing they WILL be top shelf!
If they FAIL to keep doing what they are doing it will depend on how long they don’t do it!
You know you all love Moneyball but yet when the MONEYBALL DESIRABLE is staring you in the face you refuse to see it!
Metsie, Turner and Pridie are up here doing well (Turner) and OK (Pridie) because their in their prime and have been playing pro baseball for 7-9 years. They are perfect for us right now but they are not guys you are going to build around like Heyward and Stanton.
You do realize that Jason Pridie is hitting .224 don’t you? Has struck out about 30% of his AB’s? Was hitting a robust .186 when he got called up?
He’s made all the plays in CF, hit a few timely HR’s, remained healthy and isn’t GMJ. but let’s be serious, if your pointing to Jason Pridie as the example of a good farm system I think you’ve pretty much made the opposite point. Plus I don’t know that you can really claim him for our farm anyway. You claimed Smoltz was traded for (he was) so he doesn’t count as a product of the Braves system and Pridie even made his debut with Minn. Smoltz never played for anyone but the Braves. Of course Smoltz was never DFA’d by anyone either.
I like the contributions of Turner and Pridie thus far but on a good, playoff bound team, they’re likely role/bench players…
and thats what they are on this team…so far this year our LF/CF/3B/1B have all been injured…thats half of our position players…so yeah…pridie/turner are great for org depth…no one thought otherwise
Metsie if your claiming that Pridie and Turner make our farm system a good one your insane.
First of all we didn’t even draft them.
Second of all I never said they were worthless. I think they were great pickups. Great thought process. Upgrade AAA without costing anything. Good move but the idea that two guys who were cut by their team and passed through the entire AL before we claimed them makes us a good farm system is just insane.
It means we made a couple of wise, well thought out decisions that didn’t hamper payroll, clog up a roster spot and gave ourselves a chance to get something for nothing.
Not that we have a top 10 farm.
How many of those guys you claimed McIlvane found were drafted by him?
Was Darling Drafted by us?
Was Backman?
Was Hojo?
Was fernandez?
Seems it only matters if they were drafted when it’s Omar getting the credit and EVERYONE gets the credit when their name isn’t OMAR!
Look Metsie. Backman was drafted 1st round #16.
Mazzili was traded for Darling and Terrill.
Terrill was traded for Hojo
Bob Bailor was traded for Sid.
The three trades were forward thinking trades. We traded guys FROM the Majors FOR guys in the minors. Smart move but we haven’t done that in years because we can’t afford to take anything off the Major League roster in order to get better……in a couple of years.
Everything is always about THIS YEAR despite true evidence that sometimes we would be better served to sell high and set ourselves up for the future.
Very good thought process behind those trades because the biggest reason teams win is they have the best talent, all at the same time. Adding 2/5 of your future rotation and a 3rd basemen to our already growing talent base was a very smart idea.
I’m not sure what your point is here Metsie but I don’t care if their drafted or someone else drafts them as long as we have the most talented players, lots of them and all in their prime. That’s the secret. Don’t let it out.
so let me get this straight…was Jason Werth a bad pickup by the Phils b/c he was a rule 5?
shane victorino?
how about johan santana?
u cant have it both ways….
justin turner/pridie were decent pickups by omar+staff…
beato was a decent pickup by sandy ( even though it annoys me we could’ve had him 5 years ago )
Certainly they were all good picks. I think the point he’s making is that it is more important to develop and draft your own players in the minors. Finding guys like Turner, Pridie and Beato are great but you still need to draft well and spend money in the draft and IFA market to develop the impact players. Waiver wire pickups and the Rule V are good in their own right but can’t sub for a good system because quite often, the only players available there are flawed in some way (or are thought to be flawed anyway). They are a good way to fill holes and fill out the roster, however.
And in regards to Beato, sure it would’ve been nice to draft him but say that he ended up having his TJ surgery and his struggles…it’s certainly possible that he isn’t protected by the Mets in the Rule V draft since they have a full 5 years of info on him and they lose him to another team or they deal him in a trade or whatever…the point being, that who knows if he’s still in the organization/available if we actually draft him.
You cannot rely on rule 5 non tenders but you have to be open to them. Jason Werth played great for the Phils and when he left, the Phils got TWO # 1 picks to replenish their farm. That worked out great for them.
That same year we gave the Giants our 1st round pick for 100 games of a 40 year old LFer. Stupid.
The two sure things if done competently and religously will provide a steady prospect flow over a period of time. Some years more, some years less, some years nothing but taken over a ten year period will provide you with the best years of some of the best players,
The other sure bet is the IFA market. No draft needed here, every amateur is available to every team. No concerns about “going over slot” You can simply extract as many top shelf amateurs as you want.
Your only really limited by the quality of your scouts, development people and your own committment.
Our committment has been far less than total in these areas and that is why we consistently have a mid 20′s rated farm.
By having the largest payroll we are able to bump our results above mid 20 (out of 30) but only really to about 10th-20th or so unless Florida supplies us with some of their best players and the rest of the NL/NL East tanks for a year or two.
The farm, IFA and draft are all you can count on (overall, not a particular prospect) Some FA’s pan out other don’t. Non-Tenders, Rule 5, waiver wire acquisitions ect. are available only because they are perceived to have something wrong with them and in fact most of them do. The one you like the most might be at an area of strength. With a good farm though everyone is potentially available through trade.
Why would we handcuff ourselves like this?
“I think the point he’s making is that it is more important to develop and draft your own players in the minors. Finding guys like Turner, Pridie and Beato are great but you still need to draft well and spend money in the draft and IFA market to develop the impact players.”
And it doesn’t matter how good you do any of that unless your one of the 10 worst teams in baseball at the time they are in the draft!
Phillies had the 11th pick in the 96 draft Passed on Rollins and took Adam Eaton instead Got Rollins in the 2nd Round…Good? Or Lucky?
Phillies had the 4th Pick in the 2001 Draft, Took Gavin Floyd passing on Teixeira and Howard Wouldn’t take Howard until the 5th round. Good? OR LUCKY?
They were 5th in our Division the same year we were playing the Subway World Series!
Maybe thats why they have the Howards and Rollins’ on their team, Cause they sucked since 1994!
T, don’t be rediculous there’s a huge difference between a signed, sealed & delivered first round selection & one u can’t sign due to outrageous demands. tht latter is useless to u, the former [potentially priceless. My point has always been the uselessness of your tendancy to consider whom we may have gotten in lieu of sacrificing the pick for a disappointing vet, since u assume we would’ve signed the same selection as was taken with our draft position as most of the teams are not hobbled by ownership’s inflexibly adhering to a rediculous system designed to hamper them(slotting guidelines). Arguably some of the selections we made were made out of desperation(best available within slot). Certainly that criticism befalls ownership not FO.(acl Phillips’ regime) as Steve reportedly was the exec recommending Fred acquiesce to Bud’s voluntary guide;lines.
Phillips told Fred what he knew Fred wanted to hear. Joe Mcilvaine and his Scouting Director (John Barr, now with SF and ranked #1 Scouting Director in baseball) were all about identifying high school talent. Their resumes are littered with guys they identified at 16, 17, 18 years old. Mcilvainne alone drafted Todd Helton, Derrick Lee, John Olerud, Rafeal Palmeiro, Matt Williams, John Wettland, Lenny Dykstra, Gooden, Roger McDowell, Dave Magadan, Rick Aguilera and many other good players. Together Mcillvaine and Barr drafted AJ Burnett, Paul Wilson, Terrance long, Garrett Atkins, Jeremy Guthrie, Aaron Rowand, David Dejesus and Jay Payton, but a HUGE part, maybe the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the whole operation is that Ownership has to approve and allocate the funds in order to sign these players.
The Wilpon was caught between a rock and a hard place. The Wilpon didn’t want to spend the money necessary to convince these high school kids to give up their scholorships hence players like Palmero, Williams, Olerud and Wettland never played for us which directly led to “The worst team money could buy part 1″ and they had a GM who’s primary talent was discovering these players. That’s what led to Mcilvaine being fired right after the 1997 draft. The whole “skill sets” BS was Phillips telling Fred and Saul that we could win without spending on the draft. Consequently Phillips than busted on 13 of 17 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks with two of those “successes” being just marginally useful (Pagan and Heilman)
This was BEFORE the introduction of “slotting guidelines.” and there have never been slotting guidelines in the DR, Venezuela, Panama and Colombia.
The fact is over 20 years the Wilpon hasn’t WANTED to spend on anything that doesn’t provide an immediate box office kick and this goes all the way back to the late 80′s, a full 15 years before these ridiculous slotting guidelines were introduced that everyone else completely ignores.
This is the reason we have to rely on a Division rival to furnish us with our best players for us to have any hope of making it to the post season.
Basically the Wilpon has hired a GM who’s specialty was scouting and the draft and then didn’t allow him the funds to extract the value he was capable of. The Wilpon also hired a GM who’s specialty was the International free agent market and didn’t let HIM spend the money to get the value HE was capable of. The did hire a GM who rode the coattails of his predocessor and robbed the future away from his successor to achieve what modicum of success he did accomplish but immediatly led to “The worst team money could buy Part 2.” And all because the Wilpon will not spend behind the scenes and reinvest in the team.
Steve Phillips once famously said that “prospects will get you fired.” I would say that attitude is what has kept us uncompetative in our league, despite having the largest payroll, except for the couple of times the Marlins have been able to furnish us with some of the best players in baseball. The question is when will we begin to furnish our own multiple first round talents? Two or three guys every decade is never going to get it done.
Their really not outrageous demands ’62 if everyone else is willing to pay them. It’s just a lack of desire to reinvest in your own product. No different than Factory A upgrading their manufacturing equipment and Factory B sticking with the same old antiquated stuff while paying someone to keep coming in and fixing it while suffering through downtime, uncompleted orders, poor quality, rushed jobs requiring expenditures in overtime and pissed off customers.
KC and Pittsburgh have been extracting the best talent possible for four and three years respectively now while we’re the one’s acting like a small market team. Point to their poor records all you want to but the bulk of their highly regarded prospects were obtained by going overslot in the supplementary round on down. Players that will prevent them from having to ask “well who are we going to get for” these 5-10 positions every year.
How can teams that routinely have better records than us, with smaller payrolls, also have better farm systems than we do. How is that even possible?
Well if you went Overslot then it means you paid more than anyone else was willing to pay doesn’t it?
What does that matter. More bang for your buck. One prospect gets an overslot deal from one team, another from a different team and so on and so forth.
At the end of the draft some teams have five great prospects, we have one. Who’s going to wind up with the better team year in and year out?
Well dude on one hand you suggest everyone is willing to pay them the same but by DEFINITION Overslotting is paying a kid more than anyone else is willing to pay them isn’t it?
If they were willing to pay him the same amount they WOULD HAVE paid him no?
They didn’t and you could overslot them!
truth is the problem isn’t not adhering to overslotting, the problem is the draft rules should be changed so NO ONE can!
You draft them they either sign with you or they delay their baseball career by a year and hope someone remembers them when the next draft rolls around!
Then it’s all about the evaluation proccess and your record.
Overslotting is NOT paying a kid more than anyone else is willing to pay him. It’s paying him more than the Commissioner wants you too.
Big difference…..dude.
Whether the draft should be changed is immaterial to the discussion. It probably will, right after we decide to exert our competative advantage after being at the end of the curve yet again, but until it’s changed we should adapt to what our more successful competitors have done.
Go over early and often. It would only cost us what half a season (25 or so games) of what Moises Alou did.
And if you don’t what happens?
Someone else pays him!
Shouldn’t be that way. You draft him you own him and if they want to limit what is spent of those drafts then set a RULE not a guideline that stops EVERYONE from having to overpay a guy that has proved nothing!
Right…well there should be some sort of hard draft slot but there isn’t, because the players and agents would likely revolt. They’re going to make some changes after this season since the CBA is up. However, while we still have a shot at taking advantage, the Mets might as well spend as much as they can on talented players. It is really stupid to be martyrs for a cause that is actively sabotaging the team. If the Wilpons were smart, they’d understand that it is better business to spend a little on the farm system and reap the big dividends later on when the prospects develop into major leaguers.
T, HERE’S THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AS I SEE IT, WE’RE BOTH DISSATISFIED WITH HOW THIS TEAM IS OPERATED. I REFUSE TO HARP ON IT REALIZING IT’S UNLIKELY TO CHANGE UNTIL THERE IS AN ALTERATION IN OWNERSHIP @ THE CONTROL LEVEL. AS I SEE IT, FRED PREFERS THE APPEARANCE OF WINNING TO THE “BALLS TO THE WALL” ALL OUT GO FOR BROKE COMMITTMENT TO WINNING. JEFF, IS A PHILLIPS’ DESCIPLE, REFUSING TO ACCEPT THE TRUE IMPORTANCE OF R & D INVESTMENT OVER IMMEDIATE PROFITS(NOT LIKELY COVERED IN HIS ASSOCIATES DEGREE EDUCATION) SWALLOWING HOOK, LINE & STINKER THE PHILLIPS “U CAN’T REBUILD IN NY” PHILOSOPHY. COMBINED THEY HAVE CREATED A FLAGSHIP STEERING REPEATEDLY OVER IT’S TOWLINE!
BY CONTRAST, YOU CONSISTANTLY HARP UPON THE REULTS BEING UNACCEPTABLE, BLAMING POWERLESS OFFICIALS WORKING ON RESETTING A COURSE; BUT DEALING WITH A TOTALLY IMMOVABLE RUDDER(BISMARK LIKE) U CONSISTANTLY MOURN OVER LOST PROSPECTS WHO COULD NEVER BE SIGNED WHILE STEERINMG IN CIRCLES “FULLSPEED AHEAD”" IS THE ORDER OF THE DAY
T, AT ONE POINT U NEED TO STOP BASHING YOUR HEAD INTO THAT STEEL DOOR PROTECTING A FAMILY HAPPY WITH THE APPEARANCE OF PROVIDING EXCEPTIONALISM.
UNTIL MLB BECOMES A CAPITALISTICLY RUN INDUSTRY THAT ALLOWS FREE & OPEN TRANSFERS OF POWER RATHER THAN LIKE AN EXCLUSIVE MEMBERSHIP COUNTRY CLUB WHERE INEPT LEADERSHIP AS IN FLUSHING,PITTSBURGH, MIAMI WILL CONTINUE UNABATED. CVERTAINLY FANS CAN EXERCISE THE RIGHT TO RENOWNCE THEIR FANDOM BY BVOYCOTTING THESE TEAMS’ PRODUCTS,SERVICES IN AN ATTEMPT TO FORCE LIQUIDATION BY UNFAVORABLE OWNERSHIP; HOWEVER CONTROL OF A SUCCESSOR IS FAR FROM BEING PASSED TO THE BEST HEELED, MOST COMPETITIVELY MINDED STATUS QUO CHALLENGER; BUT TO ONLY ONE DEEMED ACCEPTABLE BY THOSE DEDICATED TO DEFEAT THE ACCEPTED CANDIDATE, HIS SO CALLED COMPETITORS NOT HIS SUPPORTERS(FANS,CONSTITUANTS)
T, IT’S TIME TO ACCEPT THAT JUST AS SELIG CHOSE OUR GM, HE WILL JUST AS ASSUREDLY CHOOSE OUR WILPON SUCCESSOR, IF HE ALLOWS ONE.
BE IT AS IT MAY I PREFER THE DEVIL I KNOW DESPITE HIS HORNS & TAIL TO THE ONE I DON’T AS IT JUST MAY RESULT IN A CORPORATE DISINTERESTED PURCHASER.
ASSIGNING PROFIT MARGINS INSTEAD OF W%.
’62. I don’t feel that meek acceptance of an unnacceptable status quo is the right way for fans to proceed.
Here we had, at the same time, an owner with money who was willing to spend it and a GM who was able to both build for now and later. Why almost all of the money had to go into the now where we got a 3-4 year window at best, followed by yet another crash, as opposed to later where we could have had a competitive team every single year with just a little tinkering for years and years to come is just not acceptable to me. This is now the third time we have crashed under that business model.
One of the things about the baseball business plan the Wilpon’s are following is that they point to the payroll when they talk about how much they want to win, but what flies under the radar, and has for years, is the chincing out of the very thing that would make the difference between consistently winning or continuing to lose.
We can talk about “slotting guideline’s” forever but you know ’62. The NY Mets under Wilpon since 1987, long before slotting guidelines came out, were the cheapest team in the draft. There are no slotting guidelines at all in the international market.
Just for example. Every single international free agent is available to every single team. It just comes down to scouting, developing and the owners commitment. You have no concerns about whether a guy will be drafted before you get to pick, whether you can sign him, whether you’ll go over slot or anything else.
You simply have to identify the best talent, then sign it, and develop it. No problems. Even with Omar who’s truest expertise and previous non GM experience all centered around the International free agent market. Sosa, Gonzalez, Rodriguez, Reyes. These are the players Omar has been linked to. Why, with him ensconsed as GM for six years would we have only one big year of spending on IFA’s and the rest right back at the bottom of the league.
Why would a team in a large market, with the three best consecutive years of attendance (2006-2008) in team history pull in the reigns like this? Because their commitment is less than firm because they can get away with it and still point to the big box office splash every January that doesn’t do **** and everybody thinks, hey these guys are putting up the money, they must want to win, but clearly their not putting up the money. Their putting it up in the most visable area and cheaping out where it would do the most good because it’s less visable and they can get away with it.
Even Harvey last year was drafted higher than expected because they came to an understanding on price. Now he’s doing great no question about it but here’s the thing. The draft and prospects in general are so tough to get right on a consistent basis when you have to eliminate the surer bets it just makes your ultimate results TEN times less likely.
If we had an owner who spent no money would it be fair to point that out? Back in the De Roulet years it was pointed out constantly. It was wrong then and it is wrong today. The fact that the Wilpon is hiding behind the slotting guideline is false. They were doing it before and their still doing it in the IFA arena where there are no guidelines.
The Franchise is a shell of what it should be. No kid born in the last 20 years wears a Met Hat. Their all NYY fans. Our favorite team has been run into the ground by owner incompetence and by their skinflint ways all the while posturing about how much they’ve spent on payroll. They even have a sizable, extremely gullible and naive minority of the fan base convinced that only the spending on the Major League roster matters. That you can just go out and get whoever you want to play every position you need every single year and they’ll all be great. That’s not the way it works ’62.
I would think that the Mets on field incompetence, spanning the entire Wilpon error, placed under examination would reveal nothing less than a shell game. 3 card monte. Bait and switch. A Box office Barnum. And I just don’t see the need to keep it quiet.
I think most fans would be in an uproar if the team they spend money and invest emotion in was purposely and actively making it so much more difficult to accomplish their stated goal…….. Unless that isn’t the real goal, which in that case why stay quiet about it?
T, WHO SUGGESTED STAYING QUIET; BUT BE REALISTIC, HOW DO U PROPOSE CHANGING IT?
IT’S SO ILLOGICAL AS TO BE MUCH MUCH MORE CONVOLUTED THAN U OR I PRESUME. PER THAE NYer ARTICLE AT ONE POINT FRED HAD WHAT HE BELIVED WAS NEARLY $1B IN LIQUID ASSETS FOR STERLING USAGE 500M WITH BERINE & 400M WITH STERLING-STAMOS.
IN TRUTH, FOR AS LONG AS IS RELATIVE TO CURRENCY THIS FRANCHISE WE LOVE HAS BEEN INEPT IN DEALING WITH DRAFT PICKS, I CERTAINLY CAN SOMEWHAT UNDERSTAND FRED’S CONCERNS WHEN U HAVE TO PRESUME HE WAS BEING TOUTED ON THE ABNERS, ESCOBARAS, PEYTONS & MARTINEZES LONG BEFORE WE EVER HEARD THEIR NAMES OF WHICH HE CAN COUNT ON ONE MITTENED HAND HOW MANY MADE A DIFFERENCE FOR US COMBINE THAT WITH PHILLIPS’ MISGUIDANCE VIS A VIS R&D INVESTING & U JUST MAY FIND WHY WE’VE FAILED SO BADLY, UNLESS FRED IS DEMANDING TYHESE ANSWERS U R STILL RAMMING THE STEEL DOOR WITH YOUR HEAD. AS TO YOUR ASSUMPTION THAT 3-4 YRS WAS THE BEST OUTLOOK FOR THESE HIGH PRICED MERCENARIES, I BEG TO DIFFER AS THE HIGHEST PRICES WERE PAID TO BELTRAN & SANTANA TWO PLAYERS @ 28,29 YRS OLD, CERTAINLY WITH A TALENT LEVEL & HISTORICAL RECORD THAT SHOULD’VE WITHSTTOD STRONGER TESTS OF THEIR PRODUCTIVITY DELIVERIES. THE QUICK ACQUIESCENCE TO SLOT RESTRICTIONS IS NOT CAUSATIONAL BY ANY MEANS; BUT CERTAINLY AN INDICATOR AS TO HOW DEEPLY THE ROT HAD DEVELOPED ESP AFTER [PHILLIPS’ RECOMMENDED SIGNING UP LOYALY!
IF U REAlly want to truly uncover the one who screwed us fans the most? i suggest it was the beloved architect of our greatest success, Frank Cashen who failed to properly train a successor capable of assumuing his chair @ his retirement dinner. At the time when queried about his successor being amiong his sr. assistants Harazin & Phillips, he was quick to point out their unreadiness as one “knew talent”*HARRAZIN) while the other mastered in contracts & procedures(PHILLIPS) We’ve been F’d with halfbaked solutions/plans ever since…
Personally, I acknowledge, the futility of constantly complaining about the same flaws while conciously aware of it’s unlikely repair. Personally, I’m witholding my judgement on Alderson’s reign until I see the results of this June’s draft & how many selectees sign on our dotted line.
Retirement Dinner?
Cashen was run out of town by the Wilpons…
who do u think orchestrated the Kevin Mitchell for vanilla wafer safe and quiet Kevin McReynolds?
2 points if u said Fred Wilpon ….
turns out K-Mitch spit champagne in their faces during the WS celebration…they turned around and traded him…later they leaked a BS story to the press that he was a “bad influence” on Doc and Straw…
Doc and Straw and Mcllavaine all said this was pure b.s.
the problem has been the wilpons…
no ifs ands or buts about it
I’ll agree with T Agee on this one. The tossing out of 1st rounders for nothing is something to be disappointed with. First of all, yes the Mets have a history of not going overslot. However, that history has not included early picks with this team. Under Omar, the Mets went overslot in the 1st round to sign (off the top of my head) Mike Pelfrey, Steve Matz and Matt Harvey. I’m not sure if Havens or Davis were overslot but the point is that they did show a willingness to go over with their top pick if it was a guy they really wanted. It’s not going overslot with later picks that is the frustrating thing…they could really bulk the farm system by going overslot later in the draft, buying talented HS kids out of college commitments and convincing college players to leave a year early (they finally were a bit more aggressive last year when they paid 24th rounder Erik Goeddel 350,000 to leave UCLA. Goeddel was a potential 1st round talent this season who fell because teams thought he’d stay at UCLA. He’s looked great in Savannah thus far…these are the types of risks that they can afford to take more often because they have the money to do it).
It’s not only about developing players for your major league team, but it’s also about developing organizational depth and (most importantly) developing trade bait that you can use to acquire more young, talented major league players. Having a deep system allows you to make trades and fill needs in the majors much easier.
Senorstem, We have been acting like a small market team when it comes to the draft and IFA for the entire Wilpon error. A VERY good job was done with Goeddel. A potential 1st rounder coming out early and taking less is a smart move but for evey smart move there have been a billion poor ones. Just a couple of years ago we tried the same manuever and didn’t even sign our 5th and 6th rounder.
Your point about paying the high school kid is really the most salient. Talent good enough to at least be considered in the early rounds, that is undecided, and considered a risk to sign and slides down the draft IS worth going over to convince a kid to begin his pro career now but you have to make it worth their while. The kid is giving up a lot when he could just go to college and get drafted 3 or 4 years from now. Maybe he enhances his position by that time or not at least he has a college degree (or close)
Keith Hernandez was a 37th round draft choice who was accepted at Navy. Now I can’t see Keith at the helm of a destroyer but none the less he was paid for forgoing that opportunity and the Cardinals got 1st round talent in the 37th round and they got it started at age 18 and at 20 Keith was a Sept call up and played overall great for 9 years. Just as a point of reference Ike and Havens are already 24. Jason Heyward just 21. Regardless of how well Ike (or Havens) play up here Heyward will have the much longer career due to a 3 year head start.
Paying these kids, selectively, is smart business. Sure some may not sign, others may washout but how many 7th rounders out of college wash out? Loads. By going overslot we can nab a future first rounder for nothing more than cash why wouldn’t we?
2006, 2007 and 2008 saw the best three year attendance figures in team history so why weren’t we reinvesting some of that money into the farm? Because we can always grab an Alomar, Vaughn, Castillo or Alou when ever we want?
This team has been run like a small market team in the areas of the business that matter the most. We spend something like 26th out of 30 in the draft and have for 20 years. That’[s why we have a farm system rated around 26th. Incredibly after 2005 we spent about 26th in the international area as well. The one thing that Omar could reasonably be expected to excel at and we don’t take advantage and cheap out. Doesn’t make any sense. It’s like having Beltran bunt with the bases loaded on a 3-0 count.
This “strategy” of cheaping out in the draft and IFA market (even in years where your pulling in record profits) and not reinvesting in the team is shortsighted and self-defeating and makes me call into question the real committment level of Fred, Jeff and Saul. I mean if you had a chance to stock your farm with the most talented or average talent which would you choose? If you had to reallocate money away from the 25 to do so who wouldn’t do that. You could find a non tender or two who could give you more than Bay, Alou, Castillo do. You don’t have to go type A top shelf every year if you just go top shelf at 25% of that money in the draft and IFA market every year and you’ll soon have so much talent in the farm you lose guys in the rule 5 draft because you can’t protect them all.
“The one thing that Omar could reasonably be expected to excel at and we don’t take advantage and cheap out. Doesn’t make any sense. It’s like having Beltran bunt with the bases loaded on a 3-0 count.”
cuz at the end of the day…they are counting on Omar + staff to find the next jose reyes for 16K that NO ONE knows about…the next Sammy Sosa for 5K that noone knows about…
the Wilpons are ALWAYS LOOKING FOR A BARGAIN.
then on the top level, as u said…they use brand-names to sell tickets…which is why Omar said at the end of 2008 we were going to get YOUNGER and FASTER in the OF…and we trade ENDY CHAVEZ and replace him with GARY SHEFFIELD..
that does NOT sound like a COHESIVE organization…that sounds like a bunch of guys with different agendas…
I guess you could say who doesn’t want a bargain…
But when you give Oliver Perez 12 Mil per and castillo 8 Mil per, Bay is getting whatever it is he is getting…
Can you really accuse the team of not being willing to spend?
Accuse them of over spending as Tagee does is fair in regards to how much good that money bought you but his judgement is based on hindsight of injury and before those guys got hurt or when they have been able to play the performance we got was worth about what the same performance would get albeit with a healthier player.
He’s not wrong to judge it that way just not exactly right either, Cause without Hindsight they got paid according to their average numbers they put up and continue to put up IF and WHEN they get into a game when healthy
im not using cases of oliver perez/castillo/bay as relative bargains…
each of them was paid market rate for their services…
im using the fact that they use brand name free-agents as a marketing tool as much/more than the production they bring…
fact is…they would rather have bobby bonilla and his 25 million dollar smile than barry bonds a year later…
same way they delayed announcing the jason bay signing for a week just to coincide it with the season package sale at the end of the year…
as nelson double-day did…the owners should u just back up…and let the pros run the org…give them a set amount of time to get XYZ results…and judge them off of that…
in NY..if u win…we will come…this is NOT TAMPA BAY…
Well it’s hard to say the Wilpons are forcing BARGAIN signings unless there is a bargain signing in the last 10 years….
20 Years ago is one thing…They took Bonilla because Bonds has never had it good in the media spotlight and proved it in SF!
Problem was he did his best talking with his bat not his smile which made Bonilla a bad choice. Neither of them would have been a better choice, No Coleman or Murphy either for that fact, And those guys were no bargain either we paid plenty for much of nothing!
So I can’t see how you can Blame the Wilpons for wanting Bargains if they never actually got any!
And you can’t say they are CHEAP about their spending either!
We were cheap this year once Sandy took over…
Is that because the owners didn’t want to spend, Sandy didn’t want to spend or because after Lee and Crawford there really was no one worth spending on?
And if we did you might then have a claim to show they were too busy looking for bargains!
wait…ur telling me that Barry Bonds in 1992 would’ve been a bad signing?!!?
and ur basing that on…..?
i am not saying that EVERY major splash was a bargain…
Bret Saberhagen/Frank Viola/Vince Coleman/Mike Piazza/Pedro Martinez/Carlos Beltran/Delgado/Bay/etc were not bargains…
signing Gary Sheffield to play RF in a huge park like Citifield..was HORRIBLE…
signing GMJ to play CF just b/c the Angels paid 20 mil of his 22 mil salary was HORRIBLE…
GMJ and Sheff were WASHED UP…the ONLY reason we got them was because someone else picked up their salary…
the ONLY reason we didnt get a better prospect for Billy Wagner was b/c the Wilpons wanted to save a million dollars..
this is the coupon cutting buloney i have been talking about
>>>>I’ll agree with T Agee on this one. The tossing out of 1st rounders for nothing >>>is something to be disappointed with.
Signing Wagner = Not a mistake
Signing Alou = Not a mistake
Signing K-Rod = Not a mistake
Offering arb to glavine = great move
offering arb to feliciano = great move
Signing Alou before allowing SF to offer arb = BIG MISTAKE
I didn’t list all those other ones, though. You’re the one listing those. I mean, of course, it’d be nice to save the first round pick and find a closer elsewhere, either in the farm system or on the trade market. But since we didn’t have that ability, I was quite on board with both the Wagner and K-Rod deals. No question. It’s the Alou deal that makes me mad, since they didn’t even allow the Giants to offer him arbitration. They just willingly threw that pick in the trash. Not only that, but the trading of Wagner (and his Type A status) for absolutely nothing was insanity. Chris Carter and Eddie Lora (who retired in Rookie ball last year btw) is not an adequate return, considering the Red Sox turned around and got 2 first rounders after getting solid relief work from Billy. If they were going to trade him, they needed to get prospects equivalent of those two picks. Theo Epstein must’ve been salivating when he talked to Omar about that dud of a trade.
last night Aaron Harang pitched 8 scoreless innings. So can we please stop this “Harang is a bad pitcher” nonsense? He’s pitched good all year, his stats are inflated because of two bad starts…
If you want to say he wouldn’t have come here no matter what we offered, ok that’s fair, I’m was just throwing him out as an example – I just think he’s a good pitcher and he would have given us a better chance to make the playoffs.